If you discovered that reincarnation was true......
bigfl...@gmail.com
would that change your day to day life, if at all?
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
wrote:
> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> BOfL
Also, if it became mainstream in our own communities, what efect do
you think that would have?
BOfL
Monsieur Turtoni
wrote:
> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> BOfL
I would write self serving obscure meaningless messages on Usenet and
dislike all the responses that didn't in some way give me a little
nudge of approval. I would then repeat this process incessantly for
your years and still wonder why i was irritating to the regular
readers. The beat goes on..
bigfl...@gmail.com
All the responses? You read all my responses, even though you say they
are ,meaningless and obscure.Why? Do you think you may be obsessed?
BOfL
Monsieur Turtoni
wrote:
Are you applying for my proofing reading role? Actually the newsgroup
is pretty slow as of late.Your drivel and others has driven away and
rational discussion.
Mike Jones
This "topic" is just toxic-meme reinfection behaviour in action.
If you discovered the FSM was true...?
If you discovered /I'm/ god...?
Blah...
Its utter nonsense and you know it.
And now back to "In Conversation" with Santa Claus...
--
*=( http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/
*=( For all your UK news needs.
bigfl...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
And you think your constant sniping doesnt add to that?
Perhaps some get sick of the likes of you constantly sniping.
Just stick to your cuting and pasting, and ref to wikepedia and the
level may improve.
On that basis, this is the last time I will reply to you. It is so
easy to get sucked in, and therefor increase the
amount of non constructive contributions, so enjoy the 'last word' It
will be the last chance you will get.
BOfL
Monsieur Turtoni
Perhaps in a previous life you were a fortune teller. The only problem
with that is that people don't want you to tell them their fortunes
since they don't believe that you have that ability. HTHelps.
Giga2
wrote:
> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> BOfL
I think I would worry less about this particular life and take a
longer term view. If the community did that? I think it would be a
better community. I think people would be less hurried, less
egoistical. I suspect we would be more like India, as they mostly do
believe this? It would also open up some very interesting
philosophical questions, even scientific. How does the 'soul' travel
from one place to another (one body to another)? Does that take any
time, or is there a delay? Does the 'soul' only travel forward in
time? Does a particular 'soul' only occupy one 'place' at a time, or
can the same 'soul' occupy many bodies?
Mark Earnest
wrote:
> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> BOfL
If I were somewhere between heaven and Earth and some big muscle man
tried to get me to
come back to Earth as a baby again...
..I think I would get into a knock down brawl with him and knock him
out cold!
Sir Frederick Martin
Whatever stories you practice 'religiously', become your
experienced 'truths', for now.
Daniel T.
> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
What is the difference between a world where reincarnation is true, and
one in which it isn't true?
sarge
Perhaps we should consider the possibility that they actually could
not answer the question, in addition to whatever other motives for not
answering it might be present.
It is fairly common to hit things that seem to indicate one's
inadequacy.
Mark Earnest
Monsieur Turtoni
wrote:
> On Mon, 24 May 2010 07:51:31 -0700 (PDT), "bigflet...@gmail.com" <bigflet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> >would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> >BOfL
>
> Whatever stories you practice 'religiously', become your
> experienced 'truths', for now.
How do you setup the experience of "truths" ? When we played as kids,
no matter how hard i imagined i could fly, i never actually flew,
aside from fictionally in my imagination. I wouldn't count that as
truly flying. Perhaps some of us, never actually grow up and just
enjoy continuing to play. That's all well and good, but with the
growing up we inherit responsibilities. I'd imagine that if those
responsibilities suffered some type of severe trauma, there might well
be a tendency to revert back to playing like children. Alice in
wonderland springs to mind.
Monsieur Turtoni
If it were true for everyone i think there would be a significant
difference. We'd be more like ants, working towards a common goal.
What would be the point in consciousness. If everybody knew for sure
the rules of life and what to aim for, then there would be no need for
free will. That's the problem. Things just don't add up. Unless you
imagine that it's all setup as a test for each individual and
everything is an illusion, much like the recent lost series seemed to
portray, with the island as some type of purgatory. But that just
doesn't feel right and hence the need of the authors to have to kick
in some event (like the crashing of the plane and the deaths of
everybody) and a different place (the island) to set that up.
bigfl...@gmail.com
How pleasent to participate in 'on topic' discussions. What this group
is 'supposed' to be about :-)
There are views amongst some who I consider 'lofty' in such
understandings, whom I questioned many years ago.
One suggested the reason such references were removed from
Christianity (they are still there but much more subtle), was it would
be easier for some to kill others if they believed such people would
return. For those who would kill, better they would be 'tamed' by fear
of hell and damnation.
Not far removed from the suicidal fundie., who believes killing for a
'good cause' will cause him to "ascend to heavenly states".
If he could be persuaded by the hell fire argument, his motivation
would change.Still wouldnt remove the 'killer' consciousness, but
would replace the carrot with the stick.
In India of course, such interpretations perpetuate the caste system,
which, although exists 'by default' in many western countries, is
abhorrent in principle to modern sensitivities. At least we generally
strive to produce equal opportunities.
What I concluded back then reinforced my growing undertsanding, that
no matter what beliefs are, it is the level of consciousness , both
individual and group, which dictates the actions, regardless of the
'blueprint'.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
That explains the consciousness of many people, and their action 'this
life' :-).
The 'experts' say that we each choose the next life because in that
temporary state of 'no body' we become aware of the beauty of the
outcome of balancing our karma and are happy to pay the price.
I used to apply whatever I could rationalise from contemplating the
possibility of past and future lives, to past and future years this
life.
I discovered there were no differences. Even back befor I knew
scientifically the body replaced itself in its entirity, every ten
years.
Just re reading your last line, I wonder if thats why some develop
marshal arts skill lol.
I remember the great raconteur and comic, Stephen Fry, when describing
his homosexual preferences.
"It was horrible when I was 'in there' , a struggle to 'get out' so
why on earth would anybody want to get back in for fun" or words to
that effect. :-)
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
wrote:
> On Mon, 24 May 2010 07:51:31 -0700 (PDT), "bigflet...@gmail.com" <bigflet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> >would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> >BOfL
>
> Whatever stories you practice 'religiously', become your
> experienced 'truths', for now.
So ANSWER ZE QUESTION SVINEHUNDT...just kidding SirF...but it may be
fun/interesting to give it a try.
Of course, I maintain that the subject has been 'hyjacked' by the
religiosity industry,and disassociate the two subjects (which is why
many maintain that Buddhism is not a religion).
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
Good question. If it is true, it is true, and no amount of convinvcing
either way will make it not so.
I remember someone asking the Dalai Lama, "if I could prove
reincarnation was not real, would you communicate with your 'flock'
and tell them so".
Without hesitation, he said "of course I would", to the amazement of
the questioner. The D.L. then said "all as you have to do is bring me
the evidence".
You have to admit, he is a witty bugger :-)
There are very big differences however, in places that either believe
or dont believe. That was the point of the thread.
How would such beliefs effect you or the community.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
> On 24 Maj, 16:51, "bigflet...@gmail.com" <bigflet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> > would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> > BOfL
>
> Perhaps we should consider the possibility that they actually could
> not answer the question, in addition to whatever other motives for not
> answering it might be present.
No reason to, because I know some can, although I agree with your
second reasoning, and why I respect others pov.
>
> It is fairly common to hit things that seem to indicate one's
> inadequacy.
People do that to themselves continually, the only way we progress
bothas individuals and communities.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
> Responding to bigflet...@gmail.com:
>
> > On May 24, 10:51 pm, "bigflet...@gmail.com" <bigflet...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> >> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> >> BOfL
>
> > Also, if it became mainstream in our own communities, what efect do you
> > think that would have?
>
> > BOfL
>
> This "topic" is just toxic-meme reinfection behaviour in action.
>
> If you discovered the FSM was true...?
>
> If you discovered /I'm/ god...?
>
> Blah...
>
> Its utter nonsense and you know it.
>
> And now back to "In Conversation" with Santa Claus...
>
> --
> *=( For all your UK news needs.
About 60% of the worlds population would consider the topic valid.
Sometimes you have to engage your imagination to stimulate your
growth.
Henry Ford was a good example,whereby he was reported as saying that
he felt it no more remarkable to be born once than many times.
You have an unpleasent tendencey to tell people what they mean, and
then validate you own position by agreeing with such views. Sounds
very much like how toxic meme infection would work.
That is one of the most destructive traits in the relationship
arena.Arrogance in the extreme in some cases.ONe thing to question
someone to see if thats what they really meant, totally another to
'tell them what they meant'.More damaging than many realize (to both
parties).
Known as 'posession' in some interpretations.
People can practice black magic without understanding the word magic
or black.
BOfL
Giga2
The people would think differently (if they were aware of it).
Giga2
I suppose even if reincarnation were proven to be true then not all of
me will be reincarnated. Obviously my particular name, history, much
of my personality, presumably my particular life circumstances may be
much different. So in a sense a great deal of what is me, in this
life, will die, even if I can remember it in another.
Giga2
How could we 'know' that we will be reincarnated. Even if we have many
times before?
Daniel T.
What would be the difference? The question assumes that I inaccurately
believed that reincarnation was false, then something happened to cause
me to accept that it is true. Something would have to happen to cause me
to change my mind; what would that something have been?
The essence of my counter-question is that I don't know what it would
*mean* for reincarnation to be true or false. I don't know what
reincarnation is. Careful with a glib response here; the question "What
is reincarnation?" is not as easy to answer as you might think.
Daniel T.
> On May 25, 7:39�am, "Daniel T." <danie...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > "bigflet...@gmail.com" <bigflet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> > > would that change your day to day life, if at all?
> >
> > What is the difference between a world where reincarnation is true, and
> > one in which it isn't true?
>
> Good question. If it is true, it is true, and no amount of convinvcing
> either way will make it not so.
>
> I remember someone asking the Dalai Lama, "if I could prove
> reincarnation was not real, would you communicate with your 'flock'
> and tell them so".
>
> Without hesitation, he said "of course I would", to the amazement of
> the questioner. The D.L. then said "all as you have to do is bring me
> the evidence".
> You have to admit, he is a witty bugger :-)
None of the above answers my question.
> There are very big differences however, in places that either believe
> or dont believe. That was the point of the thread.
>
> How would such beliefs effect you or the community.
What could possibly cause me to change my beliefs about reincarnation?
Sir Frederick Martin
Apparently "imagination" is not 'religious' enough.
Probably those that do become 'true believers', about flying,
do the Darwin thing, and die from leaping off tall buildings.
Any doubt type story, also practiced, may cause caution.
The paradigm here is the 'virtual reality', which is the only way
I have figured out 'subjective experiences', without resorting
to 'magic', and ignoring folk talk(the earth is flat, type stuff).
Zerkon
> If you discovered that reincarnation was true.
> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
If you discover reincarnation is children
bigfl...@gmail.com
Unless, as you rightly said, something would have to happen. In case
you havnt noticed , I give scant attention to beliefes of any sort, so
I agree with you.
I thought this would be an interesting exercise.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
Or about any beliefs. Active contemplation and an open mind, thats
what.
That wasnt my point however.It was just a suggestion to exercise ones
imagination.
Not compulsary !.
BOfL
Sir Frederick Martin
No change, as today I practice the stories that the situation
is totally without purpose and meaning, reincarnation supports
that also.
Giga2
Say you remembered your previous lives, and that seemed as much a
memory as your earlier life now. It might well be pretty convincing
proof, at a deep level. Not something that would constitute proof to
anyone else, but to yourself. I suppose there is no way to know it
would happen in the future (again)?
Art
wrote:
>Say you remembered your previous lives, and that seemed as much a
>memory as your earlier life now. It might well be pretty convincing
>proof, at a deep level. Not something that would constitute proof to
>anyone else, but to yourself. I suppose there is no way to know it
>would happen in the future (again)?
From what I've read, people are not always convinced by their
own memories. They may feel they are imagining things. People
tend to become convinced only after strong verfication checks
are made.
Art
http://home.ptd.net/~artnpeg
Daniel T.
If such evidence constituted proof of reincarnation, why would I
"discover" that reincarnation was true? Wouldn't I have always
remembered these previous lives?
Giga2
> On Tue, 25 May 2010 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT), Giga2 <justho...@yahoo.com>
If anything the evidence would seem to say that false memories are
believed more than accurate memories are doubted. However presumably
some verification might be possible. Say you had lived in an area you
have never visited, in this life, and then you could visit that place
and maybe it would clearly match your 'memories'. Or say you had some
skill in a previous life, say composing music, and even though you
have never tried before in this life, you find you can just do it,
almost 'naturally', or learn a particular language very easily etc etc.
Giga2
Maybe not. Obviously in general people do not remember past lives in
this way (I don't). If most people did we would not even discuss
reincarnation or take doubt of it very seriously, anymore than we do
the idea that the world started just 5 minutes ago and everything we
remember just appeared like that in our memories 5 minutes ago as well.
Daniel T.
Good point! So for me to "discover" that reincarnation is true, I would
have to basically find out that most people remember past lives. That
such memories are common. This would be true even if I didn't personally
remember past lives.
This gives us a baseline, to answer the original question. How would
things be different if reincarnation were actually true?
My guess is that if people could remember past lives, then they would
remember past grudges and gratitudes. It would be as if people didn't
die.
bigfl...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
That is really the point of the thread, and is a question that nobody
can answer for another.
The reasons become clear, when you have had enough experiences where
such awakening will no longer be traumatic.
An example is found in retrogressive therapies (just 'this life'
illustrates the principle Im referring to). Some relive past traumas
and it affects them once more in their 'waking' life, where some can
see the laws of cause and effect at work, and see how wisdom is
gained.Firstly the karma, and then the need for understanding karma.
Imagine if you killed someone while sleep walking. If you never found
out about it, it wouldnt be a problem for you. What would happen to
most if they did find out?
I personally would feel no more responsible than if I had killed
someone in my dreams. Thats a difference in 'preparedness' to which Im
referring.
My expereince is that when you have reached the latter stages of that
stage of the process, rather like a physiological reaction, a
psychological mutation takes place, where you become aware with
'immunity'.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
From that answer I detect an open mindedness to the whole principle,
that you are acknowledging the possibility of something to remember.
This is a great example (even if not with you specifically) of the
self dialogue part of the awakening process.
> If most people did we would not even discuss
> reincarnation or take doubt of it very seriously, anymore than we do
> the idea that the world started just 5 minutes ago and everything we
> remember just appeared like that in our memories 5 minutes ago as well.
Would that be five Earth minutes or five cosmic minutes :-)
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
Good reasoning, but absolutely incorrect. On such issues, one gets
confirmation, not information, the latter being the core of religions
and beliefs.
>That
> such memories are common. This would be true even if I didn't personally
> remember past lives.
Thats being open minded. An essential step to your own growth.. A
closed mind doesnt stop the growth, but ...let me think...imaging
wearing shoes when you are 12, and dont remove them when you are 14 (a
personal memory of the rapid growth of my feet :-)
>
> This gives us a baseline, to answer the original question. How would
> things be different if reincarnation were actually true?
>
> My guess is that if people could remember past lives, then they would
> remember past grudges and gratitudes. It would be as if people didn't
> die.
Die...DIE...wachootalkingabout...:-)
BOfL
Art
wrote:
>On 25 May, 22:35, Art <n...@zilch.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 May 2010 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT), Giga2 <justho...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Say you remembered your previous lives, and that seemed as much a
>> >memory as your earlier life now. It might well be pretty convincing
>> >proof, at a deep level. Not something that would constitute proof to
>> >anyone else, but to yourself. I suppose there is no way to know it
>> >would happen in the future (again)?
>>
>> From what I've read, people are not always convinced by their
>> own memories. They may feel they are imagining things. People
>> tend to become convinced only after strong verfication checks
>> are made.
>If anything the evidence would seem to say that false memories are
>believed more than accurate memories are doubted.
I'm basing my comment primarily on reports of "what it seems like"
to be regressed and asked to "go back in time". People usually feel
like they are "making it all up". Yet, in mass studies such as those
of Helen Wambach, their memories turned out to be accurate:
http://www.carolmoore.net/articles/helenwambach.html
BTW, clearly her later work on "future lives" turned out to be
nonsense. I suspect that the "inner more knowledgeable self"
prevents "going there" for most people. I also think the future
is plastic, and that all that can be seen are some possibilities
and probabilities.
>However presumably
>some verification might be possible. Say you had lived in an area you
>have never visited, in this life, and then you could visit that place
>and maybe it would clearly match your 'memories'. Or say you had some
>skill in a previous life, say composing music, and even though you
>have never tried before in this life, you find you can just do it,
>almost 'naturally', or learn a particular language very easily etc etc.
Yes, there are some remarkable cases of child prodigies
who seem to be born knowing music or math, etc.
The ancient Greeks "proved" reincarnation by asking uneducated
slaves a series of questions. Since the slaves in this way displayed
knowledge of mathematics, it was concluded they must have learned
the math in a past life. Of course, nowdays we recognize "leading
questions" and dismiss such methods. IMO the most convincing
evidence is the past live work by Wambach and the studies of
spontaneous memories (that proved accurate) of very young
children by Ian Stevenson.
Giga2
You might still doubt it, especially if you didn't remmeber any past
life. And anyway even if most people do get reincarnated does that
mean everyone does?
That
> such memories are common. This would be true even if I didn't personally
> remember past lives.
Personally even if a few people I knew well and respected told me they
could remember past lives that would influence my belief about it.
Maybe help to remember myself, with the help of some techniques
perhaps. But surely there could be other explanations. Like could you
be remembering some kind of genetic memory, or could it be telepathic
in some way, or could it be an illusion even though some proof could
be found (demon explanation)?
>
> This gives us a baseline, to answer the original question. How would
> things be different if reincarnation were actually true?
>
> My guess is that if people could remember past lives, then they would
> remember past grudges and gratitudes. It would be as if people didn't
> die.
Which reminds me, you owe me $5
Giga2
If it is in my case its taking quite a long time because I was
thinking fairly openly about reincarnation 20 years ago. I presume you
do remember past lives?
>
> > If most people did we would not even discuss
> > reincarnation or take doubt of it very seriously, anymore than we do
> > the idea that the world started just 5 minutes ago and everything we
> > remember just appeared like that in our memories 5 minutes ago as well.
>
> Would that be five Earth minutes or five cosmic minutes :-)
>
> BOfL
>
Good one :)
Giga2
> On Wed, 26 May 2010 02:24:06 -0700 (PDT), Giga2 <justho...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On 25 May, 22:35, Art <n...@zilch.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 25 May 2010 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT), Giga2 <justho...@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >Say you remembered your previous lives, and that seemed as much a
> >> >memory as your earlier life now. It might well be pretty convincing
> >> >proof, at a deep level. Not something that would constitute proof to
> >> >anyone else, but to yourself. I suppose there is no way to know it
> >> >would happen in the future (again)?
>
> >> From what I've read, people are not always convinced by their
> >> own memories. They may feel they are imagining things. People
> >> tend to become convinced only after strong verfication checks
> >> are made.
> >If anything the evidence would seem to say that false memories are
> >believed more than accurate memories are doubted.
>
> I'm basing my comment primarily on reports of "what it seems like"
> to be regressed and asked to "go back in time". People usually feel
> like they are "making it all up". Yet, in mass studies such as those
> of Helen Wambach, their memories turned out to be accurate:http://www.carolmoore.net/articles/helenwambach.html
I haven't been aware that there was so much academic study of
reincarnation. What an interesting field. Especially her own quote
that she "doesn't believe in reincarnation - she know it is true".
>
> BTW, clearly her later work on "future lives" turned out to be
> nonsense. I suspect that the "inner more knowledgeable self"
> prevents "going there" for most people. I also think the future
> is plastic, and that all that can be seen are some possibilities
> and probabilities.
Or perhaps it is the dates things happen which is flexible, rather
than whether those things happen. Unpleasant possibility in this case.
>
> >However presumably
> >some verification might be possible. Say you had lived in an area you
> >have never visited, in this life, and then you could visit that place
> >and maybe it would clearly match your 'memories'. Or say you had some
> >skill in a previous life, say composing music, and even though you
> >have never tried before in this life, you find you can just do it,
> >almost 'naturally', or learn a particular language very easily etc etc.
>
> Yes, there are some remarkable cases of child prodigies
> who seem to be born knowing music or math, etc.
Mozart is one obvious example (started composing almost as soon as
physically possible, 5 yrs old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart).
I have personally seen many examples of children who seem wise well
beyond their years. Its almost a cliche the somewhat ordinary parents
and the wise child, and yet how does that happen?
>
> The ancient Greeks "proved" reincarnation by asking uneducated
> slaves a series of questions. Since the slaves in this way displayed
> knowledge of mathematics, it was concluded they must have learned
> the math in a past life.
Yes, which dialogue from Plato is that Theatreus or something
(actually I think its Meno http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meno)
recollection of 'soul' knowledge from the realm of ideas etc. Not very
convincing for me at least, but often had the feeling that I was
missing something in the dialogue?
bigfl...@gmail.com
Such questions equaly apply to 'this life'regarding day to day
perceptions.
>
>
>
> > This gives us a baseline, to answer the original question. How would
> > things be different if reincarnation were actually true?
>
> > My guess is that if people could remember past lives, then they would
> > remember past grudges and gratitudes. It would be as if people didn't
> > die.
>
> Which reminds me, you owe me $5
Dont forget the 5000 years at 5% accumulative Mr Gates :-)!
Another exampe of people who are ready to discover or not.
Ask yourself the following "would it matter if I discovered I was
adopted, that I discovered my father was a homicidal maniac, that I
was Jewish/Arabic/Black/White, when I thought I was American Indian"
etc etc. If you were curious but indifferent to such discoveries, you
are likely to have success with retro observation.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
> If it is in my case its taking quite a long time because I was
> thinking fairly openly about reincarnation 20 years ago. I presume you
> do remember past lives?
I know people who have been 'thinking' about fitness for a lot
longer :-).
Although I now know that life goes on for each of us, the discovery
for me, didnt involve such memories, which is why it is not good
practice to infer that any specific combination of experiences equals
the correct formula for realisation.
I recognised, at my speculative stage, that it would be interesting to
find out, but it really didnt matter,because I also realised that we
are all at the stage of consciousness directly linked to our
accumulated experiences, that you dont develop suh consciousness
without an incredibly comprehensive c.v. :-)
This paralleled my approach towards the study of both physiology and
psychology. I was more interested in what to do with both and
discovere a lot 'on the way. Perhaps another example being that it is
not necessary to undertand engineering, to be the formula 1 world
champion. (Although it would help if you knew you were immortal
hehehe).
>
>
>
> > > If most people did we would not even discuss
> > > reincarnation or take doubt of it very seriously, anymore than we do
> > > the idea that the world started just 5 minutes ago and everything we
> > > remember just appeared like that in our memories 5 minutes ago as well.
>
> > Would that be five Earth minutes or five cosmic minutes :-)
>
> > BOfL
>
> Good one :)-
It always makes me laugh, the way we attempt to use time and
measurement units of this planitory speck, to measure the cosmos.
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
> On 26 May, 16:06, Art <n...@zilch.com> wrote:
> I haven't been aware that there was so much academic study of
> reincarnation. What an interesting field. Especially her own quote
> that she "doesn't believe in reincarnation - she know it is true".
>
Often throws people if one uses such dialouge (and can cause serious
confrontation to believers).
Dont forget, science doesnt willingly go into arenas where there is no
'scientific explaination'. A variatin being 'even a scientist can know
but not prove'.
>
> > BTW, clearly her later work on "future lives" turned out to be
> > nonsense. I suspect that the "inner more knowledgeable self"
> > prevents "going there" for most people. I also think the future
> > is plastic, and that all that can be seen are some possibilities
> > and probabilities.
>
> Or perhaps it is the dates things happen which is flexible, rather
> than whether those things happen. Unpleasant possibility in this case.
Which is why, for me, it doesnt matter, knowing that all consciousness
is experienced based.
>
>
>
> > >However presumably
> > >some verification might be possible. Say you had lived in an area you
> > >have never visited, in this life, and then you could visit that place
> > >and maybe it would clearly match your 'memories'. Or say you had some
> > >skill in a previous life, say composing music, and even though you
> > >have never tried before in this life, you find you can just do it,
> > >almost 'naturally', or learn a particular language very easily etc etc.
>
> > Yes, there are some remarkable cases of child prodigies
> > who seem to be born knowing music or math, etc.
>
> Mozart is one obvious example (started composing almost as soon as
> physically possible, 5 yrs oldhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart).
> I have personally seen many examples of children who seem wise well
> beyond their years. Its almost a cliche the somewhat ordinary parents
> and the wise child, and yet how does that happen?
Interesting to read attempted scientific postulates.
>
>
>
> > The ancient Greeks "proved" reincarnation by asking uneducated
> > slaves a series of questions. Since the slaves in this way displayed
> > knowledge of mathematics, it was concluded they must have learned
> > the math in a past life.
>
> Yes, which dialogue from Plato is that Theatreus or something
> (actually I think its Menohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meno)
> recollection of 'soul' knowledge from the realm of ideas etc. Not very
> convincing for me at least, but often had the feeling that I was
> missing something in the dialogue?
Dont worry, so did Plato, when listening to Socrates. "Bits" of truth
are distributed in the correct form as needed for all levels of
receptivity.
BOfL
>
Daniel T.
> > basically find out that most people remember past lives.
>
> You might still doubt it, especially if you didn't remmeber any past
> life. And anyway even if most people do get reincarnated does that
> mean everyone does?
Sure you could still doubt it, there are people who still doubt the
shape and age of the Earth. However, if one person was reincarnated,
then reincarnation is "true" even though not everybody is reincarnated.
> > That such memories are common. This would be true even if I didn't
> > personally remember past lives.
>
> Personally even if a few people I knew well and respected told me they
> could remember past lives that would influence my belief about it.
> Maybe help to remember myself, with the help of some techniques
> perhaps. But surely there could be other explanations. Like could you
> be remembering some kind of genetic memory, or could it be telepathic
> in some way, or could it be an illusion even though some proof could
> be found (demon explanation)?
Very true. Being able to "remember" something isn't very good proof that
the thing is true. This is why science prefers theories that can predict
things. A theory of reincarnation would have to be able to help you
predict something, like maybe when and where the child with person X's
memories will be born.
Giga2
Indeed.
>
>
>
> > > This gives us a baseline, to answer the original question. How would
> > > things be different if reincarnation were actually true?
>
> > > My guess is that if people could remember past lives, then they would
> > > remember past grudges and gratitudes. It would be as if people didn't
> > > die.
>
> > Which reminds me, you owe me $5
>
> Dont forget the 5000 years at 5% accumulative Mr Gates :-)!
Good point.
>
> Another exampe of people who are ready to discover or not.
>
> Ask yourself the following "would it matter if I discovered I was
> adopted, that I discovered my father was a homicidal maniac, that I
> was Jewish/Arabic/Black/White, when I thought I was American Indian"
> etc etc.
Sounds just like a family get together to me!
If you were curious but indifferent to such discoveries, you
> are likely to have success with retro observation.
>
I see, so if you are not bound up in your current 'manifestation' etc.
Interesting.
> BOfL
Giga2
Giga2
Yes, that would be interesting. Maybe you could leave all your worldly
goods to yourself, or at least your new self!
RVG
> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
For re-incarnation to be a real question, there should be some sort of
incarnation first, no ?
But there's no incarnation, so even less reincarnation.
Pursuing the socratic question: "Who am I ?" I meet the question: when
was "I" born ? Was it with the body ? No, I don't remember seeing my
body get born. So it was later. But when ?
How come we can't remember our first memory ?
What does that say about the nature of the mind ?
--
Internet is People
http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://www.jamendo.com/fr/user/RVG95
Daniel T.
> bigfl...@gmail.com a �crit :
>
> > ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> > would that change your day to day life, if at all?
> >
> > BOfL
>
> For re-incarnation to be a real question, there should be some sort of
> incarnation first, no ?
>
> But there's no incarnation, so even less reincarnation.
>
> Pursuing the socratic question: "Who am I ?" I meet the question: when
> was "I" born ? Was it with the body ? No, I don't remember seeing my
> body get born. So it was later. But when ?
Do you exist?
> How come we can't remember our first memory ?
I can.
bigfl...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ever wondered why the royal family are so posessive of their
kingdoms :-).
BOfL
bigfl...@gmail.com
> bigflet...@gmail.com a écrit :
>
> > ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went, how
> > would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> > BOfL
>
> For re-incarnation to be a real question, there should be some sort of
> incarnation first, no ?
Not if the process is ongoing.
>
> But there's no incarnation, so even less reincarnation.
You would have to look at the wordd 'incarnate' to figure that one
out.
>
> Pursuing the socratic question: "Who am I ?" I meet the question: when
> was "I" born ? Was it with the body ? No, I don't remember seeing my
> body get born. So it was later. But when ?
Interesting how you refer to 'your body'. "I" dont remember. Do you
remember what happens during the 30% of your time when you are
sleeping?
>
> How come we can't remember our first memory ?
Bit tautological :-) but I know what you mean.
With modern 'brain science' we can identify memories actually being
stored. There are many succesful psychological therapies that trace an
individual back beyond conscious memories to traumatic times, and
solve the residual problems.
Memory works at many levels.One obvious example being our subliminal
reflex reaction to past dangers.
>
> What does that say about the nature of the mind ?
It is very selective. (for very good reasons).
I gave an example at the beginning, where many would be almost
'paralised' if they had to face hidden memories.
BOfL
Giga2
RVG
As the mind (ego congito) ? No, because the mind is caused by language
and language is acquired through the world.
As the body ? The body is a drop of foam from the Ocean that believes
(through the construction of the ego) that it is somewhat different than
all the other drops of water that, like itself, are just returning to
the Ocean.
Separation (and desire/pain/mind) is delusion. Reality is the Ocean that
is both the world and the mind. There's no way the mind can dissociate
itself from the body until death because the source of the mind is the
impulse toward communication of need and pain that started with birth.
But realizing that you're not the body but the whole Being (Brahman,
both mind and universe) you can take a "step back" from the ego as being
"not me", much like the NASA Mars probe is not the technician on Earth
who's getting the images from the probe.
Both the heart (ie the root of the mind) and the universe are non-local.
Because both are one and the same: the Self, Atman, Brahman. And there's
no second before or after that. "That" that I truly am and that you
truly are, like all the self-aware beings of the world.
>> How come we can't remember our first memory ?
>
> I can.
Nope.
The first memory contains the first call (= expression of desire caused
by pain) to whatever "you" then called "MA" by just opening the mouth
and produce some sound. And like "me" and all of us, you don't remember it.
RVG
As the mind (ego cogito) ? No, because the mind is caused by language
and language is acquired through the world.
As the body ? The body is a drop of foam from the Ocean that believes
(through the construction of the ego) that it is somewhat different than
all the other drops of water that, like itself, are just returning to
the Ocean.
Separation (and desire/pain/mind) is delusion. Reality is the Ocean that
is both the world and the mind. There's no way the mind can dissociate
itself from the body until death because the source of the mind is the
impulse toward communication of need and pain that started with birth.
But realizing that you're not the body but the whole Being (Brahman,
both mind and universe) you can take a "step back" from the ego as being
"not me", much like the NASA Mars probe is not the technician on Earth
who's getting the images from the probe.
Both the heart (ie the root of the mind) and the universe are non-local.
Because both are one and the same: the Self, Atman, Brahman. And there's
no second before or after that. "That" that I truly am and that you
truly are, like all the self-aware beings of the world.
>> How come we can't remember our first memory ?
>
> I can.
Nope.
The first memory contains the first call (= expression of desire caused
by pain) to whatever "you" then called "MA" by just opening the mouth
and produce some sound. And like "me" and all of us, you don't remember it.
--
Daniel T.
> Daniel T. a �crit :
> > RVG<not....@themoment.org.invalid> wrote:
> > > bigfl...@gmail.com a �crit :
> > >
> > > > ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you went,
> > > > how would that change your day to day life, if at all?
> > > >
> > > > BOfL
> > >
> > > For re-incarnation to be a real question, there should be some
> > > sort of incarnation first, no ?
> > >
> > > But there's no incarnation, so even less reincarnation.
> > >
> > > Pursuing the socratic question: "Who am I ?" I meet the question:
> > > when was "I" born ? Was it with the body ? No, I don't remember
> > > seeing my body get born. So it was later. But when ?
> >
> > Do you exist?
>
> As the mind (ego congito) ? No, because the mind is caused by language
> and language is acquired through the world.
>
> As the body ? The body is a drop of foam from the Ocean that believes
> (through the construction of the ego) that it is somewhat different than
> all the other drops of water that, like itself, are just returning to
> the Ocean.
Enough with the dodging. Do you exist or not? The above seems to say
that you believe that you don't exist. I can't help but wonder how *you*
could believe that if *you* don't exist, since in order to have a
belief, you have to exist.
> Separation (and desire/pain/mind) is delusion. Reality is the Ocean that
> is both the world and the mind. There's no way the mind can dissociate
> itself from the body until death because the source of the mind is the
> impulse toward communication of need and pain that started with birth.
None of that means the mind doesn't exist, none of it means the body
doesn't exist. Lastly about your "until death" comment; are you saying
that the mind *can* dissociate itself from the body after "death"?
> > > How come we can't remember our first memory ?
> >
> > I can.
>
> Nope.
> The first memory contains the first call (= expression of desire caused
> by pain) to whatever "you" then called "MA" by just opening the mouth
> and produce some sound. And like "me" and all of us, you don't remember it.
Yes, I can. By definition, everybody can remember their first memory
because anything not remembered isn't a memory.
Giga2
> RVG <not.h...@themoment.org.invalid> wrote:
> > Daniel T. a écrit :
>
> Yes, I can. By definition, everybody can remember their first memory
> because anything not remembered isn't a memory.
That's good. I'll have to remember that (sic :))
THE BORG
<bigfl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b94e2f24-f662-4a3f...@u20g2000pru.googlegroups.com...
> ....that you continued on , developing and learning as you
> went, how
> would that change your day to day life, if at all?
>
> BOfL
There are two systems on Earth.
1. The Reincarnation System.
2. Heaven/hell/punishments.
There are two Gods/Religions, thus there are two systems.