On Yesfans and bannings
Chris Hosford
that some of you might be curious about what went down at Yesfans so
I'm just gonna post this once for all of you to read and that is
pretty much all I will have to say on the matter. There are a few
things I do want to make absolutely 100% clear for the record. I was
issued no warning. I was not asked to edit or remove any of my
postings. I was not threatened with suspension. I am not "suspended"
as it says below my avatar at the moment. I am permanently banned for
"repeatedly insulting Benoit David". I have been offered no terms for
reinstatement nor have I requested any. I do not apologize for
anything. I stand by my opinions.
It is my position that Yesfans only undermines their own credibility
and relevance as a place to talk about Yes and talk about music with
these kinds of actions. They have done more damage to themselves than
they have to me. I do not believe that I violated the rules. I never
bagged on BD for anything not related to music, performance and
songwriting, all of which I think should be fair game. I imagine some
of you agree with me and some of you disagree with various shades of
in between. That's fine. Diversity is a good thing, not a bad one.
Please be assured that I never offered up anything that wasn't sincere
from my point of view and, while I might be a stubborn and overly
sarcastic geek with too many CDs and a touch of OCD I am most
certainly not a troll. The only formal request I have made is that Tim
Lutterbie, and I asked him this DIRECTLY via an email contact that he
initiated, have the cajones and the honesty to put the word "Banned"
below my avatar instead of "Suspended". No action. No response.
That's what I have to say. My hope is that people will take these
unfair, unjust actions against me and other posters as a catalyst to
consider what kind of forum in which they wish to participate and then
act and speak up accordingly.
brufy
So you've been banned then?
MarkF
> It is my position that Yesfans only undermines their own credibility
> and relevance as a place to talk about Yes and talk about music with
> these kinds of actions.
At "YESfans" it would seem the notion of "YES" supersedes the notion of "fans"...
--
Mark "at a.m.y the 'alt' supersedes any notion of credibility or relevance" F
stevesyn
I have championed this opinion of Yesfans since I was banned some
years ago now.
With me and my direct association with Yes and my fall out with
Squire, they actually discouraged any support for The Syn and started
a campaign to actually undermine me.
It's not unlike they are doing to Jon now, that's one of the reasons I
speak out about it quite forcibly. If they want to make random
accusations against me, the least I would want is the right of reply.
Chris, I may or may not agree with what you say, but I will always
defend your right to say it - an old mantra, but freedom is built on
it.
They are cowards in a coward's game, they are going the same direction
as HSWes, Yesfans has got the band it deserves.
Steve Nardelli
Chris Jemmett
> I promise you cats that I'm not looking for a whinefest, but I imagine
> that some of you might be curious about what went down at Yesfans so
> I'm just gonna post this once for all of you to read and that is
> pretty much all I will have to say on the matter. There are a few
> things I do want to make absolutely 100% clear for the record. I was
> issued no warning. I was not asked to edit or remove any of my
> postings. I was not threatened with suspension. I am not "suspended"
> as it says below my avatar at the moment. I am permanently banned for
> "repeatedly insulting Benoit David". I have been offered no terms for
> reinstatement nor have I requested any. I do not apologize for
> anything. I stand by my opinions.
Certainly as a regular with a history there, you have been treated
unfairly. Given what you have to know about the general mentality
there, this treatment should come as no surprise.
> It is my position that Yesfans only undermines their own credibility
> and relevance
I have to stop you right there. It is a fan site run by a particular
type of fan. The rules are window dressing and credibility and
relevance are not even in the equation. Your wish or your thought
about how good it could be there is on par with a wish that all people
were rational.
> (...) as a place to talk about Yes and talk about music with
> these kinds of actions
These kinds of actions are to be expected. You are trying to make
sense of the actions of people who are thinking differently than you.
>They have done more damage to themselves than
> they have to me. I do not believe that I violated the rules. I never
> bagged on BD for anything not related to music, performance and
> songwriting, all of which I think should be fair game. I imagine some
> of you agree with me and some of you disagree with various shades of
> in between. That's fine. Diversity is a good thing, not a bad one.
You will be brought back when their hissy-fitting stops.
> Please be assured that I never offered up anything that wasn't sincere
> from my point of view and, while I might be a stubborn and overly
> sarcastic geek with too many CDs and a touch of OCD I am most
> certainly not a troll.
Of course you are not a troll and of course you have been sincere.
Unfortunately you have also been far to accurate with comments
critical about Yes on a site run by people who have their own agendas
and standards (such as they are) about the band.
The only formal request I have made is that Tim
> Lutterbie, and I asked him this DIRECTLY via an email contact that he
> initiated, have the cajones and the honesty to put the word "Banned"
> below my avatar instead of "Suspended". No action. No response.
Your quest for the rational or at least a display of integrity is
admirable. That the time you spent at that place didn't tip you off
that you may never find it there speaks to an innocence or possibly
just a naivety.
> That's what I have to say. My hope is that people will take these
> unfair, unjust actions against me and other posters as a catalyst to
> consider what kind of forum in which they wish to participate and then
> act and speak up accordingly.
I do get the feeling that the people who participate in that
particular forum are very much in the type of forum they want to be in
and that you simply are not one of them. This is not the first time
they have told you so, is it?
Chris Jemmett
> On May 14, Chris Hosford wrote:
>
> > It is my position that Yesfans only undermines their own credibility
> > and relevance as a place to talk about Yes and talk about music with
> > these kinds of actions.
>
> At "YESfans" it would seem the notion of "YES" supersedes the notion of "fans"...
or worse
> Mark "at a.m.y the 'alt' supersedes any notion of credibility or relevance" F
Chris Hosford
very frustrating to read the bald faced lies being spewed about Rojon
and me today from the like of Smatt and Mind Driver. I know. I
know.
Rob Allen
just wondering, do any of these people have a real name?
Rob "or is it all some sort of secret *Yesfans* code" Allen
Chris Jemmett
I'm sorry you ever thought that any of them were anything other than
what they are.
LOL, is there a ban for lying?
Rob Allen
er...Henry's still there, right?
Rob "or does he not do that over there?" Allen
TBC
Smatt's real name is Matt Kirk. The screen name comes from a slurring
of words, supposedly when he would walk into a party, and people would
say, "Itsmatt." Kind of says something, doesn't it?
Rob Allen
it's not that I want to know names, rojo referring to Chris as "Frum"
and whoever this Mind Driver might be...there's others...I suppose my
point is that the whole thing seems to have some sort of silly make-
believe quality about it.
Rob "ballbuster" Allen
TBC
>
> - Show quoted text -
I suppose in a way it is. It's the same way on other music forums, at
least it is on the Rush forums. In fact, it's the same way on some of
the writing websites I frequent. It's a way to remain anonymous, which
mostly does occur with the writing sites--you contract with someone
and they pay through PayPal, you're done. But it's not like that on
music forums where everyone fights. Everyone knows the name behind the
screen name.
Rob Allen
right of course - _remain anonymous_. How nice.
Oddly, I've never been on a music forum where "everyone fights". I
guess I don't get out often enough.
Still, in the fantasyland that is Yesfans.com, everyone knows the name
behind the screen name.
Rob "very tidy system, I'm sure" Allen
TBC
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hey, I like Ballbuster as your screen name better!
Rob Allen
well, you're stuck with Rob Allen.
Rob "even if you don't close your eyes, I still post _just like me_"
Allen
Kevin Caffrey
douchechills.com.
Kevin
http://www.myspace.com/kcaffrey
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/caffrey2
http://kevincaffrey.proboards77.com
Chris Jemmett
Oh ya, he is. You should see him gently scolding them for banning
Rojon and CH and those nice people who worked with Jon but now
criticize him too much.
> Rob "or does he not do that over there?" Allen
Well, he is very consistent. I can tell that you too incline toward
finding how all of this will make sense. It seems that what he does
over there is precisely what they need. The corollary being that what
they do is very useful to Henry as well.
flatopfreak
Many on Yesfans will think FFH is an instant classic regardless of its
merits, and most here will think FFH makes "Last Train" look like
"Gates of Delerium." Irrespective of this, I like reading the stuff
on both forums and am all for the open exchange of ideas.
I say let the people talk-except for Wereo. Can someone ban him
please? I don't mean from a.m.y. I mean from the internet.
Chris Hosford
Incidentally I have a photo of the screen that details the reason for
my banning according to Yesfans as "repeatedly insulting Benoit
David". I have an email from Tim Lutterbie that pretty much proves
that the action was taken without warning. I have absolutely no qualms
about posting that email if need be to help prove the veracity of what
I posted above.
Teakbois
What I don't get is why are you letting this bother you so much.
Doesnt sound worth stressing over. Who cares was Smatt and Mind Driver
say.
Chris Hosford
It's simply not in my nature to let BS pass without some kind of push
back.
Rob Allen
if the "push back" is effective, bravo you. But it seems to me that
you've still only accomplished making Yesfans.com appear very
important to you. I don't know how that's an effective "push back".
Instead, once again, you are placing them in the position of power,
indeed even handing over your personal power _to them_.
You don't have to prove any of what you've posted here - I don't think
anyone doubts what you've said. I think the most effective "push
back" would for you to simply be done with them. Even once they come
to their senses (presuming that could be done, of course), don't even
consider going back to them.
Rob "be done with it once and for all" Allen
Chris Hosford
Intellectually I recognize the rightness of what you are saying, but
emotionally I want to send in a metaphorical team of Navy SEALs.
Chris Jemmett
Dude, sit down. She doesn't care. She doesn't love you. She doesn't
even know what love is. She is so screwed up, it is not even her
fault but you won't see her for what she is till you let it go. Just
look man, we all fucked her or nearly all of us anyway, probably not
Rob but everyone else. Ok maybe not Rojon, he probably just sat up all
night talking but really, she can't help it and you can't let her drag
you down. It's not even personal. She's a damaged soul and she's not
looking for help. C'mon, one day she will even want you back but it
won't be for you, it will be to save face, her face. It's just that
when it happens you need to be ready and go back on your terms not
hers. You might even decide that the maintenance is way, way too high.
'Cuz it is.
Rob Allen
it's just that I've got these _standards_, man.
Rob "I never even *thought* of fuckin' that" Allen
stevesyn
> Rob but everyone else. Ok maybe not Rojon, he probably just sat up all
> night talking but really, she can't help it and you can't let her drag
> you down. It's not even personal. She's a damaged soul and she's not
> looking for help. C'mon, one day she will even want you back but it
> won't be for you, it will be to save face, her face. It's just that
> when it happens you need to be ready and go back on your terms not
> hers. You might even decide that the maintenance is way, way too high.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Great post! Your phrase 'damaged soul' sums up Yesfans and HSWes in
parallel, perfectly, brilliantly!
Steve Nardelli
Filter User
<flatopf...@yahoo.com> whined:
>
>I say let the people talk-except for Wereo. Can someone ban him
>please? I don't mean from a.m.y. I mean from the internet.
>
Good God, man. Get off Googlegroups and use a decent newsreader.
Love,
Someone who maintains a killfile.
GentleGiant
all the good times have all been in vain....it's a shame, what a
shame, such as shame...
Teakbois
> On Sat, 14 May 2011 16:47:15 -0700 (PDT), flatopfreak
>
>
>
> >I say let the people talk-except for Wereo. Can someone ban him
> >please? I don't mean from a.m.y. I mean from the internet.
>
> Good God, man. Get off Googlegroups and use a decent newsreader.
>
> Love,
> Someone who maintains a killfile.
Do you know of a good newsreader for the iPod/iPad?
Chris Jemmett
> On May 14, 5:03 pm, Chris Jemmett <ccjemm...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 14, 3:25 pm, Rob Allen <robm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 14, 12:20 pm, Chris Jemmett <ccjemm...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On May 14, 3:12 pm, Chris Hosford <uncleeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I know I probably shouldn't even bother to browse the place, but it's
> > > > > very frustrating to read the bald faced lies being spewed about Rojon
> > > > > and me today from the like of Smatt and Mind Driver. I know. I
> > > > > know.
>
> > > > I'm sorry you ever thought that any of them were anything other than
> > > > what they are.
>
> > > > LOL, is there a ban for lying?
>
> > > er...Henry's still there, right?
>
> > Oh ya, he is. You should see him gently scolding them for banning
> > Rojon and CH and those nice people who worked with Jon but now
> > criticize him too much.
>
> > > Rob "or does he not do that over there?" Allen
>
> > Well, he is very consistent. I can tell that you too incline toward
> > finding how all of this will make sense. It seems that what he does
> > over there is precisely what they need. The corollary being that what
> > they do is very useful to Henry as well.
>
> Many on Yesfans will think FFH is an instant classic regardless of its
> merits,
Possibly but one has to allow for what I call New Album Syndrome. Even
here at a.m.y. both The Laddder and Magnification drew initial high
praise that obviously faded over the years. If you remove the extremes
from either end you will probably get fair assessments allowing for
individual tastes. In anticipation there are areas where I do not want
to get any hopes up at all. I do think there is reason for optimism in
a few areas.
First, despite the outright stupid things that have been coming out of
Steve Howe's mouth for the last while (or perhaps because of them), he
has fully painted himself into a "deliver the goods" corner. He is now
free of all the things he has claimed have been wrong with Yes for a
very long time and is extremely free to make the album that he thinks
Yes should make. If nothing else, there should be some pretty good
Steve Howe guitar on the album. Also, the original song FFH has some
great sounds that actually seem ahead of their time and also contain
some very good bass work by Horn. I don't think there is any way that
Chris Squire is not inspired and all over that song and if it
translates to the rest of the album, there should be some good things
on it. Since it is "reportedly" being done on Pro Tools, there will
possibly be an opportunity for Horn to promote the best 30 seconds he
can come up with to the Mac people and tie into something good. Also,
since we live in a world of sound bites and music excerpts being
shopped mercilessly for use in movies, TV and commercials, the chances
of Horn constructing something marketable is pretty good. Despite the
noise from Howe about "no commercial", the chance to shine a very
favourable light on what would otherwise be an obscure release in
today's market does exist.
That is what comes to mind immediately on the bright side. The flip
side of that might require a bit more space.
> and most here will think FFH makes "Last Train" look like "Gates of Delerium."
I do want give people credit for being able to say what they think.
It's "what" they think that makes it all interesting.
> Irrespective of this, I like reading the stuff
> on both forums and am all for the open exchange of ideas.
> I say let the people talk (...)
So you are all for an open exchange but you still enjoy reading where
an open exchange is not allowed.
Now I am curious.
rojon
> I know I probably shouldn't even bother to browse the place, but it's
> very frustrating to read the bald faced lies being spewed about Rojon
> and me today from the like of Smatt and Mind Driver. I know. I
> know.
Typical misdirection in that they keep referring to ancient history in
saying I am " beating the dead horse" subject of Benoit, which I don't
think I've even brought up for quite some time. So this justification
in saying that I couldn't let it go is just plain odd.
The truth of the matter is fairly easily searchable for anyone who is
still a member by clicking on my name and then going to "find others
posts by rojon," because it will show my recent posts in proper order.
The only posts I made as I was banned were to say that Chris H and J
were not trolls and were long time fans, oh and also thoughts on the
new logo treatment. And as a matter of fact, before that I had
discussed the Jon Coke commercial and if Vangelis was really on Olias.
So it is nothing but odd that they have reverted back to the Benoit
thing as they seek to defend the ban.
Chris Hosford
If you go back and look again you'll find that arch lyric genius and
Squire collaborator InverYes smearing you and defending your banning
by posting completely out of context quotes from posts that you made
here.
Rob Allen
maybe whoever "InverYes" might be, is trying to get rojo banned from
here as well.
He is a _troll_ after all.
Rob "or at least a personality that belongs on something like
Yesfans.com" Allen
Chris Jemmett
So that very entity is now right here, lurking in the weeds, recording
what you say so they can then slink off to administrate to your asses
over there. Wave hi before it runs away again!
Chris Hosford
It's clear that despite their public derision of all things
alt.music.yes that they put in a fair amount of time here. Why not
speak up and rebut some of this outrageous criticism of their methods
that is so lacking in any semblance of substance or reality? If I
didn't know better I might wonder if they are afraid of being made to
look like imbeciles in any public place that they can't bury the
evidence of their folly via censorsh..., erm, "moderation.". Of
course, I know better than that, as do we all.
Rob Allen
uh...how "public" is that "derision"? Isn't pretty much everything
done from within the cult safehouse that is their little *fan*site?
That's not really "public" at all, is it?
>Why not
> speak up and rebut some of this outrageous criticism of their methods
> that is so lacking in any semblance of substance or reality?
apparently they do that, but only when surrounded by _their own_.
>If I
> didn't know better I might wonder if they are afraid of being made to
> look like imbeciles in any public place that they can't bury the
> evidence of their folly via censorsh..., erm, "moderation.". Of
> course, I know better than that, as do we all.
um, I know of couple of them aren't afraid of being made to look like
anything. The reason for that is the fact that those people are
morons...and there's this thing about moron that keeps the moron from
ever realizing that moron, let alone being afraid of having that moron
exposed.
I don't know how prevelent moron is over there, but just a glance at
the place suggests a fair lot of stupid goin' on...so it's kinda
*easy* to presume the worst.
Rob "and yet you *still* want to be a part of it" Allen
rojon
Richard (InverYes [sick to the back teeth]) lifted statements out of
several different posts, and more importantly, removed what I was
responding to and make it look like I was hurling disjointed rants.
I'm not really surprised by the dishonest tactics. The pro-HSW/Benoit
crowd at YF were never particularly good at defending them. They found
it easier to not hold the discussion on level ground. Bannings,
closing threads, doing things in secret, playing outside their own
rules or only applying them to the one side. Just like in this case,
Richard has obviously been reading here, but I notice he doesn't reply
here. No, instead, he clipped and clipped and sewed things together
and trotted his little basket of clippings back to YF, knowing the
readers wouldn't seek out the context. All safe behind the protective
wall of YF moderation. Uneven playing field, very brave.n
Peter
>
> - Show quoted text -
Waving to inverYes. Hey, douchebag, how's it going? Won't have to ban
me- an original member of Yesfans - 'cause I don't waste my time in
your little fiefdom any more. Don't worry, though, at some point,
Mister or Mama Yes manager will get tired of you and throw you under
the bus, too.
Mike Smith
Nice one - though, at least from what I've gathered thus far of this
Yesfans thing, it doesn't even deserve *this* much attention.
--
Mike "kick it to the curb and move on" Smith
Alan Robb
(in article
<9c34b0c0-b7c0-4a3f...@x1g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>):
Wereo is seriously disturbed. I'd like to see him banned from the Internet
for life.
Alan Robb
(in article
<070eb115-f277-42cc...@z19g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>):
> I know I probably shouldn't even bother to browse the place, but it's
> very frustrating to read the bald faced lies being spewed about Rojon
> and me today from the like of Smatt and Mind Driver. I know. I
> know.
>
>
Chris: I think Eleanor Roosevelt said it best:
"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
By letting the YF mods and Smatt, etc. get to you, you're letting them win.
Let it go. They don't matter.
Alan Robb
rb4003
Agreed. I think it was Ian Anderson who once said that the only answer
he had to a derogatory comment was a punch in the nose. Rob's idea
(i.e. fuck 'em, be done with 'em) is fine, but I think it's better to
call them out on their arrogance and sneaky methods.