trying to identify a Leblanc clarinet model
Dee D. Hays
<albi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:839f1a$vlu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>... The trouble is that I'm not really sure what I have. It's clearly a
> wooden Leblanc Bb clarinet. (And it's not so old that there's any
> question about high pitch/low pitch.) It has "Noblet" on the wood of
> the barrel, and upper and lower joints, (the bell, too, I think; though
> I don't have it with me at the moment). The serial number (46,xxx), is
> stamped on both joints. I realize this is an intermediate level
> instrument, but I'm trying to figure out whether it is a Model 45, a
> Model 40, or possibly a Model 4 Normandy. The key work is strikingly
> similar to the old Resotone; about the only difference I've spotted is
> that the pivot for the left hand C#/G# key is on a separate post between
> the long pivot rod (for the left hand rings) and the left hand tone
> holes, instead of being located beneath that long pivot rod.
It is *not* a Normandy 4 or it would say Normandy on it rather than Noblet.
Dee Hays
Canton, SD
albi...@my-deja.com
the two saxophone usenet groups (though I've been mostly lurking in
recent months because of the pressure of balancing grad school and a
full-time job).
I'm hoping someone can help me with some information. I've got an older
Leblanc clarinet at home on approval from my repairman. I mentioned to
Mike at a band practice that I was looking for an inexpensive used
wooden clarinet as a step up from my old Leblanc "Resotone" which folks
on line have told me eventually became known as the Leblanc Vito. Last
night, just before our holiday concert, Mike handed me a clarinet case
and said, "Here, take this home and see what you think."
The trouble is that I'm not really sure what I have. It's clearly a
wooden Leblanc Bb clarinet. (And it's not so old that there's any
question about high pitch/low pitch.) It has "Noblet" on the wood of
the barrel, and upper and lower joints, (the bell, too, I think; though
I don't have it with me at the moment). The serial number (46,xxx), is
stamped on both joints. I realize this is an intermediate level
instrument, but I'm trying to figure out whether it is a Model 45, a
Model 40, or possibly a Model 4 Normandy. The key work is strikingly
similar to the old Resotone; about the only difference I've spotted is
that the pivot for the left hand C#/G# key is on a separate post between
the long pivot rod (for the left hand rings) and the left hand tone
holes, instead of being located beneath that long pivot rod. The photos
I've looked at on the Leblanc website are really too small to be able to
tell for sure which current models have that lay out. Also, since the
horn seems to be at least several years old, I'm not sure which models
Leblanc might have even had under the "Noblet" name at the time.
If anyone can tell me even an approximate date or what to look for to
establish the model number, I would be highly appreciative.
FWIW, although a bit scarred cosmetically (the plating on the bell ring
is a bit nicked up here and there), the horn plays very well, and my
repairman spent some time checking and replacing pads as necessary,
replacing the corks, and generally bringing the horn up to speed.. I
didn't get a chance to ask him any details, but the clarinet is, in my
eyes, ready to play.
Thanks in advance for any advice and/or suggestions.
–David
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dee D. Hays
>
I received your email at work but could not reply to it then and so I
thought I would post some more general information here as it should be of
interest to others too.
You mentioned that you had had an old instrument with different markings on
the parts. This happens all too frequently. What happens is some one
breaks a part and then combines what is left with the good parts of another
horn. The result is then a clarinet that is a mismatched marriage and such
an instrument frequently has tuning problems.
Now I am not talking about cases where people have replaced the mouthpiece.
It is common practice to do so as the clarinet makers normally don't make
very good ones. A student's first upgrade should be and generally is a good
mouthpiece. Also some clarinet makers don't even make mouthpieces at all
but instead contract with mouthpiece companies to make them. So it is ok
for the mouthpiece to be marked differently.
Sometimes people will buy specialty barrels so that could also be acceptable
in some cases. There are even specialty bells but this is somewhat rare.
The two main sections of the clarinet (i.e. the upper and lower joint)
should be the same brand and model and preferably the same serial number
(high quality instruments are match drilled which is why you would want the
same serial number). If these are different brands and models, then you you
have an "illegitimate" horn. Such an instrument really should not be used
for playing but instead be used to scrounge replacement keys and other parts
for a repair person.
Leblanc's Normandy, Noblet, and Vito instruments are all separate models
with different bore designs. The sections from one should *not* be used
with the parts from another.
There was one really hilarious instrument on one of the auction sites. One
joint was from an old Albert system instrument and the other joint was from
an old Boehm system instrument. Of course the seller didn't have a clue
that this was not what the instrument was supposed to look like.
Dee Hays
Canton, SD
Lelia Loban
>There was one really hilarious instrument on one of the auction sites. One
>joint was from an old Albert system instrument and the other joint was from
>an old Boehm system instrument. Of course the seller didn't have a clue
>that this was not what the instrument was supposed to look like.
>
This type of mess turns up at flea markets quite often -- yet another good
reason never to buy an instrument without seeing at least a clear photo of it
first, unless the seller is a wind instrument specialist with an excellent
reputation. Many dealers sell a big variety of used merchandise and don't have
a clue about woodwinds.
Lelia
Please delete NOSPAM from my address to reply by e-mail.
albi...@my-deja.com
and realized that my memory had played tricks on me and that I'd
mis-represented it somewhat. The horn is old, but so am I; and it was
only slightly used when I got it in early 1964. When I checked, I found
that it was marked "Normandy" on the upper joint and bell, and "Noblet"
on the mouthpiece (which I don't use any more; I hate that particular
mouthpiece, alway have, just never thought to try a different one until
comparatively recently.) There are no markings on the barrel or lower
joint (that I could find anyway) but I'm 99.9% positive that both (and
especially the lower joint) are original and match the upper joint. The
other marking that I recalled was "Leblanc" but that, in fact, was on a
little metal plate on the clarinet's _case_.
To return to the original question, does anyone happen to know when
Leblanc began to distinguish between _different_models_ of the Noblet
wooden clarinet? Would anyone be able to hazard a guess approximately
when a serial number 46,xxx Noblet would have been built. Even knowing
the _decade_ would be useful. Thanks in advance.
--David Lechner
In article <C0j64.975$_O.2...@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
"Dee D. Hays" <dee...@dtgnet.com> wrote:
>
> I received your [David Lechner's] email at work but could not reply to
> There was one really hilarious instrument on one of the auction sites.
One
> joint was from an old Albert system instrument and the other joint was
from
> an old Boehm system instrument. Of course the seller didn't have a
clue
> that this was not what the instrument was supposed to look like.
>
> Dee Hays
> Canton, SD
Lelia Loban
>and realized that my memory had played tricks on me and that I'd
>mis-represented it somewhat. The horn is old, but so am I; and it was
>only slightly used when I got it in early 1964. When I checked, I found
>that it was marked "Normandy" on the upper joint and bell, and "Noblet"
>on the mouthpiece (which I don't use any more; I hate that particular
>mouthpiece, alway have, just never thought to try a different one until
>comparatively recently.) There are no markings on the barrel or lower
>joint (that I could find anyway) but I'm 99.9% positive that both (and
>especially the lower joint) are original and match the upper joint. The
>other marking that I recalled was "Leblanc" but that, in fact, was on a
>little metal plate on the clarinet's _case_.
>
>To return to the original question, does anyone happen to know when
>Leblanc began to distinguish between _different_models_ of the Noblet
>wooden clarinet? Would anyone be able to hazard a guess approximately
>when a serial number 46,xxx Noblet would have been built. Even knowing
>the _decade_ would be useful. Thanks in advance.
>
>--David Lechner
Aha -- that information changes things. You've got a Normandy, not a Noblet
and probably not a mutt. Having a mouthpiece of a different model than the
rest of the clarinet doesn't make a clarinet a mutt. Most people do use a
different mpc than the one that came with the clarinet.
Since the case is marked "Leblanc" and the mpc is also a Leblanc model, it
ought to be a pretty good bet that the clarinet is the Leblanc Normandy.
That's interesting that you've got a Leblanc case, because I've seen several
clarinets at flea markets with "Normandy" markings but no "Leblanc" marking.
In each case, the clarinet appeared to be pre-WWII, looked like a basic student
instrument and came with an old-looking, no-name case or a case with a store
name on it. I don't know anything about the relationship of these instruments
to the Normandy that's unquestionably the Leblanc Normandy made by at least the
mid-1950s. It could have been a situation similar to that with Selmer and
Buescher, for instance, where Buescher started out as an independent company
(founded by Gus Buescher, who had worked for Conn, back in the days when
"American" Selmers with a New York mark on them were actually made by Conn!)
but later had a variety of relations with Selmer until Buescher finally became,
in essence, a model name for Selmer. It's possible (I have no good evidence
except for the fact that Normandies without Leblanc brands do exist) that at
some point early in the 20th century, either there was an independent
"Normandy" company that Leblanc bought out, or Leblanc used that name for its
student-grade clarinets considered not worthy of the Leblanc logo at the time
-- although these may be good student or step-up models by today's standards.
As for the Noblet clarinets, my younger brother owned a wooden Leblanc Noblet
Bb clarinet that my family bought used in about 1961, from a woman in her
mid-20s, whose parents had bought it for her new about 10 years earlier. In
other words, his Noblet must have dated from the early 1950s. His Noblet had
the Leblanc logo on it and came with a Leblanc case. Though sold as a student
model, this Noblet was a considerably better clarinet than my 1958 wooden Conn
Director. The Noblet's intonation was far superior to the Conn's.
When our parents tried to find information about the Noblet, a Leblanc sales
person said that the wooden model was the high end of the Noblet line. The
company also sold a plastic Noblet that cost less, and had recently
discontinued a metal Noblet.
Sorry, but we don't have that clarinet in the family any more, so I can't help
with dating the serial numbers, but if you go to the web site, www.sneezy.org,
in the section on serial numbers (where there's no information about Leblanc
numbers and dates), there's a name and e-mail address posted for someone who
apparently has that information. I'll see if I can find it and put it here in
a different message. My computer hasn't got enough memory for me to go to a
web site and use a newsgroup at the same time!
Dee D. Hays
<albi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:83oddm$1qe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> After reading Dee's reply, I took my old "resonite" Leblanc clarinet out
> and realized that my memory had played tricks on me and that I'd
> mis-represented it somewhat. The horn is old, but so am I; and it was
> only slightly used when I got it in early 1964. When I checked, I found
> that it was marked "Normandy" on the upper joint and bell, and "Noblet"
> on the mouthpiece (which I don't use any more; I hate that particular
> mouthpiece, alway have, just never thought to try a different one until
> comparatively recently.) There are no markings on the barrel or lower
> joint (that I could find anyway) but I'm 99.9% positive that both (and
> especially the lower joint) are original and match the upper joint. The
> other marking that I recalled was "Leblanc" but that, in fact, was on a
> little metal plate on the clarinet's _case_.
>
> To return to the original question, does anyone happen to know when
> Leblanc began to distinguish between _different_models_ of the Noblet
> wooden clarinet? Would anyone be able to hazard a guess approximately
> when a serial number 46,xxx Noblet would have been built. Even knowing
> the _decade_ would be useful. Thanks in advance.
>
As Lelia has indicated, this instrument is a Leblanc Normandy clarinet with
a Noblet mouthpiece. So you are looking for a 46,xxx serial number
Normandy.
If you believe the case is original and can describe the style, material,
color, and latch style of the case that can also help narrow the time frame.
When Leblanc introduced the Vito, they upgraded the Normandy to wood and
made it a step up horn. This appears to have been around the early 1960s.
One thing is certain, since it is definitely pre-1964, you will not be able
to get help from Leblanc. They, like many other makers, did not keep
records of what serial numbers by year at that time.
I would speculate that your instrument is late 1950s or early 1960s since
you said it was only lightly used but it is just speculation. This is based
on the ones that I have seen on eBay. None of them had case styles that
would indicated them to be older than the 1950s. Still this is not solid
data.
Dee Hays
Canton, SD
albi...@my-deja.com
clarinet. The horn I was seeking information about is a _wooden_ Noblet
serial number 46xxx, that I'm considering buying for about $300 in
freshly reconditioned/repadded condition. My first clarinet is a plastic
instrument with "Normandy" on the various pieces (other than the
mouthpiece), a serial number of D 5,xxx) and the Leblanc case (red felt
interior, rubber covered sewn edges and plastic "feet") That horn is the
one which was purchased slightly used in the early 60s: supposedly a
Vito in form even if bearing the Normandy labeling.
Purely coincidentally, this morning a fellow member of the local civic
band with whom I was practicing duets on C melody and alto saxes,
brought his clarinet to show me. His clarinet is virtually identical to
the one I'm considering buying, but with a slightly newer serial number
(52,xxx). He purchased his used in a garage sale situation in 1986, so
both horns are clearly a fair bit older than that.
Interestingly, both have an identical metal cap/reenforcing ring on the
top tenon of the upper joint (but nowhere else). My first thought when I
saw that was that the upper joint was cracked, but I could not find any
evidence of a crack anywhere, and -- as I indicated -- if it were a
repair done afterwards, it was done with precisely the same materials.
Seems like an incredible coincidence....
So I guess the plastic clarinet is a plastic Normandy/proto-Vito and the
wooden clarinet is an old (pre distinct models 40/45) Noblet. Now to
start woodshedding with it....
--David
In article <omV74.580$Zo4....@newsfeed.slurp.net>,
"Dee D. Hays" <dee...@dtgnet.com> wrote:
>
Lelia Loban
"For LeBlanc instruments call 1-800-558-9421 and ask for Dave Surber. (Accurate
as of July 1997.) "
I've never tried this number and don't know whether he has a list of serial
numbers with dates. Since Leblanc apparently hasn't got that information, it
would be useful if Mr. Surber or someone else has tried to correlate known
purchase dates with serial numbers to put together an approximate guide. If
anyone has made progress on such a list, posting it here or on www. sneezy.org
would help future buyers a lot.
Dee D. Hays
"Lelia Loban" <lelia...@aol.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:19991222132403...@ng-ca1.aol.com...
I called him on my Leblanc Symphonie II and he was able to provide the
information that this model was produced from the early to mid 1950s. He
was not able to provide the year even though I had the serial number.
Dee Hays
Canton, SD
owensw...@gmail.com
> <albi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:839f1a$vlu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >... The trouble is that I'm not really sure what I have. It's clearly a
> > question about high pitch/low pitch.) It has "Noblet" on the wood of
> > the barrel, and upper and lower joints, (the bell, too, I think; though
> > I don't have it with me at the moment). The serial number (46,xxx), is
> > stamped on both joints. I realize this is an intermediate level
> > instrument, but I'm trying to figure out whether it is a Model 45, a
> > Model 40, or possibly a Model 4 Normandy. The key work is strikingly
> > similar to the old Resotone; about the only difference I've spotted is
> > that the pivot for the left hand C#/G# key is on a separate post between
> > the long pivot rod (for the left hand rings) and the left hand tone
> > holes, instead of being located beneath that long pivot rod.
>
ohp...@gmail.com
It has silver keys and a G on the top part of the logo.
No marking on the barrels except the serial numbers and logo
Any clue what this model is or
where i can find out?
Fred McKenzie
I have an old LeBlanc Bass Clarinet that was identified as a 1964 model.
However it turns out to be "high pitched", which may not have been
produced for a number of years BEFORE 1964.
Further investigation came up with a story that LeBlanc lost their
records, possibly in a fire, in the 1964 time frame. Since then, any
serial number for an older instrument will be identified as 1964.
Searching the web, you may find some information regarding serial
numbers and models from sources other than LeBlanc. Another place to
pose the question is "The Clarinet BBoard" at
<http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/list.html?f=1>
Fred
Fred McKenzie
<http://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/snleblanc/>.
The website owner claims to have a faxed copy of serial number
information, but I could not find it at the website. There is a lot of
information about various model numbers that may include data from the
faxed list.
Fred
thum...@gmail.com
> <albi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:839f1a$vlu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >... The trouble is that I'm not really sure what I have. It's clearly a
> > wooden Leblanc Bb clarinet. (And it's not so old that there's any
> > question about high pitch/low pitch.) It has "Noblet" on the wood of
> > the barrel, and upper and lower joints, (the bell, too, I think; though
> > I don't have it with me at the moment). The serial number (46,xxx), is
> > stamped on both joints. I realize this is an intermediate level
> > instrument, but I'm trying to figure out whether it is a Model 45, a
> > Model 40, or possibly a Model 4 Normandy. The key work is strikingly
> > similar to the old Resotone; about the only difference I've spotted is
> > that the pivot for the left hand C#/G# key is on a separate post between
> > the long pivot rod (for the left hand rings) and the left hand tone
> > holes, instead of being located beneath that long pivot rod.
>
> It is *not* a Normandy 4 or it would say Normandy on it rather than Noblet.
>
> Dee Hays
> Canton, SD
Fred McKenzie
yours is NOT a Leblanc.
Leblanc also makes Noblet, Normandy and Vito. I looked at serial
numbers listed at
<http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/Leblanc.html>.
I did not see any that began with a "J".
Look at the area above the "A" key on the upper body joint, as well as
on the bell. Shine light at different angles to see if you can spot an
insignia of some kind.
Fred
thum...@gmail.com
Mario
thum...@gmail.com
> <albi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:839f1a$vlu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > recent months because of the pressure of balancing grad school and a
> > full-time job).
> >
> > I'm hoping someone can help me with some information. I've got an older
> > Leblanc clarinet at home on approval from my repairman. I mentioned to
> > Mike at a band practice that I was looking for an inexpensive used
> > wooden clarinet as a step up from my old Leblanc "Resotone" which folks
> > on line have told me eventually became known as the Leblanc Vito. Last
> > night, just before our holiday concert, Mike handed me a clarinet case
> > and said, "Here, take this home and see what you think."
> >
> > wooden Leblanc Bb clarinet. (And it's not so old that there's any
> > question about high pitch/low pitch.) It has "Noblet" on the wood of
> > the barrel, and upper and lower joints, (the bell, too, I think; though
> > I don't have it with me at the moment). The serial number (46,xxx), is
> > stamped on both joints. I realize this is an intermediate level
> > instrument, but I'm trying to figure out whether it is a Model 45, a
> > Model 40, or possibly a Model 4 Normandy. The key work is strikingly
> > similar to the old Resotone; about the only difference I've spotted is
> > that the pivot for the left hand C#/G# key is on a separate post between
> > the long pivot rod (for the left hand rings) and the left hand tone
> > I've looked at on the Leblanc website are really too small to be able to
> > tell for sure which current models have that lay out. Also, since the
> > horn seems to be at least several years old, I'm not sure which models
> > Leblanc might have even had under the "Noblet" name at the time.
> >
> > If anyone can tell me even an approximate date or what to look for to
> > establish the model number, I would be highly appreciative.
> >
> > FWIW, although a bit scarred cosmetically (the plating on the bell ring
> > is a bit nicked up here and there), the horn plays very well, and my
> > repairman spent some time checking and replacing pads as necessary,
> > replacing the corks, and generally bringing the horn up to speed.. I
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any advice and/or suggestions.
> >
> > -David
> >
>
>
Mario
bhago...@gmail.com
Fred McKenzie
I would first look for an emblem of some kind. Perhaps on the bell or
in front of the top of the body. Do you have the original case? There
might be an emblem or name on it.
Someone who was familiar with various models might recognize the
construction as belonging to a particular brand. Does the body appear
to be plastic, hard rubber or wood? Is the body in one or two pieces?
Is the neck in two pieces with a tuning adjustment, or is there an
adjustment where the neck goes into the top of the body? Does it go
down to low E-Flat?
Does it look relatively new, or is it obviously old? If new, I would
worry that it might be a no-name Chinese instrument of poor quality.
If very old, I would worry that it might be a hi-pitched instrument that
would be out-of-tune for A=440 Hz. You might be able to tune it to C on
the staff, but it would then be way out-of-tune for throat tones.
I suggest you do a web search for Clarinet Serial Numbers. If you find
a list that includes Bass Clarinets, there may be a brand that includes
your instrument's number and approximate age.
Fred
chazto...@gmail.com
Fred McKenzie
Chaztorbush35-
You don't provide much information. I found one entry that suggests a
5729E Bass Clarinet might be a LeBlanc Model 7166 or 7188, made in 2000.
Fred