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CRSC application

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rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 6, 2003, 8:50:17 PM6/6/03
to
I It seems there is orchestrated movement to slow down the CRSC
application process because they fear they cannot handle the load and
do not want their stats to look bad when they forward them to the
General and the Armed Service Committee. They are concerned about the
high visibility factor that was mentioned in the directive.That is
their problem, not the applicants. We all know how the General's look
at statistics and charts. Those raters and those in charge of the
rating process are afraid of briefing those General's and showing
power point slides as to how slow they are at approving claims versus
the amount of claims that have been submitted. The best thing to do
is to send your applications forward as soon as you have it complete
and don't listen to those who say hold on to it for a while, etc. Once
you submit it ( return receipt) give them a reasonable amount of time
to process, ie; a few months, and if you hear no word back send a
letter to your congress critters and push the issue the max so it will
be highly visible. This way those raters will have to do their job
and streamline the applications. Anyone who has worked for or around
General Officers know first hand that they don't want to hear excuses,
they want it done. That is what these people are afraid of and why
they don't want a rush of applications. They might have to take a few
less smoke breaks and get the job done before those quarterly slides
go to the General. You can bet they have a tracking system as to
exactly how many applications are received and how many are approved
or denied to date. Not only that but Rumsfeld and the service Chief's
will be required to brief the Armed Services Committee with those
stats. These are competitive folks and the Army will want their %
rates higher than Air Force, Marines, Navy and vica versa. So please
don't listen to anyone or organization that tells you to slow down and
wait a while before submitting application for benefits that you are
entitled to. When you read the phrase " the services told us" be
cautious. A phrase like that is worded that way for a reason. Who in
the services are we talking about? Are we talking to those Colonel's,
LTC's. that are in charge of the rating process and don't their stats
to look bad going to the GO's, or are we talking about some civilian
that is afraid he won't get his 15 minute break every four hours? We
need to flood them with applications and make them do what they get
paid for and don't listed to any organizations that claims the "
services" say to hold on a while. Remember the organizations that have
our interest in mind and not that of their buddies.

BillR20296

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Jun 7, 2003, 5:04:37 AM6/7/03
to
done

SteveD

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Jun 7, 2003, 10:55:26 AM6/7/03
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It would make more common sense to let other blaze the trail and get
turned down, then rush into it being 1st. Remember they backpay!!!

Have all your paperwork, write the VA, get the M13, get it changed to
reflect Combat Related. Why do things twice and risk turndown?
Only the foolish rush in.

Request the records, fill out the paperwork correctly. Doing what
Fergo suggests will only slow down the process for you.

My thought;

SteveD

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 11:16:17 AM6/7/03
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If they turn an application down they have to provide a clear
explanation. I am sure those that get turned down will flood their
congressional offices with complaint letters. The fact remains that
the General Officer's will get briefed and so will the members of the
Armed Services Committee. The smart people will get their forms
completed asap and ignore those who state that you need an M13
printout to submit with your claim. That is foolish. The combat codes
at VA have not been used for years and are set at default, They are
not relevant and do not prove one way or another what disabilities are
combat related. This false assertation was only manifested to slow
things down so the rating folks will not have to do their jobs. Fill
out the application, provide a copy of DD Form 214, and medical
documents, registry physicals, etc, and get it in asap. The sooner you
get it in that faster you will receive the decision and pay you are
entitled to. If they need additional records they are required to let
you know. You are not required to submit a M13 print out, those print
outs are already available to the rating officials. You can get the
diagnostic codes on the schedule of rating site in a matter of
minutes. When you send it also send a letter or two to your Senators
to follow up. Dawson is not eligible for Combat Related Compensation
because he does not have a the required 60% combat related rating. He
is rated at 50% and TDIU. It sounds to me like he doesn't want those
of you who are qualified to receive what you are entitled to in a
timely manner. I am sure if he was eligible his form would be one of
the first in the mail.

JackBama1

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Jun 7, 2003, 1:04:41 PM6/7/03
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"SteveD" <sfd...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:61bc1433.0306...@posting.google.com...

I dont have a M13 but I have a rating letter with two ratings. How do I
figure this and what is the rating for Radiation therapy I used. Does it
borrow from the other?
My last rating said "YOUR COMPENSATION AWARD HAS BEEN AMENDED:

Radiation Therapy to Chromophobe Adenoma 50%

Heart disease
60%
The combined evaluation for all service connected disabilities is 80%
Unemployability 100%

They diagnosis I could use was Radiation damage. Question: Can the two be
combined if so how.
Jack


rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 1:11:54 PM6/7/03
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Jack, you have to use the combined rating table. You have two ratings,
1 at 80% and 1 at 50% .. According to the table your combined rating
is 90%.

http://tinyurl.com/dpsb

Send you rating letter with you application. There is no requirement
to hand in a M-13 form ...

JackBama1

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Jun 7, 2003, 1:53:17 PM6/7/03
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<rfr...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8t64evs26v8c2dj06...@4ax.com...

> Jack, you have to use the combined rating table. You have two ratings,
> 1 at 80% and 1 at 50% .. According to the table your combined rating
> is 90%.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/dpsb
>
> Send you rating letter with you application. There is no requirement
> to hand in a M-13 form ...
>
Well I will be damned. Thank you Roger.
Jack


rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 2:01:08 PM6/7/03
to
>>
>Well I will be damned. Thank you Roger.
>Jack

My pleasure.

Dan

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Jun 7, 2003, 2:07:34 PM6/7/03
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Exactly, Steve! Roger is running off at the mouth again (as usual)
before engaging the brain and common sense. Of course, look at who
we're dealing with. He appears to be unqualified for CRSC and is angry
and bitter and lashing ouut at the system and anyone who deals with
it.

sfd...@attbi.com (SteveD) wrote in message news:<61bc1433.0306...@posting.google.com>...

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 2:45:17 PM6/7/03
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You post drivel and diatribe. Keep listening to Win and his DOD
buddies if you want while the rest of us get what we are entitled too.
The fact is it is not a requirement to send in a M13 form and to
request it , with a few exceptions, is just a waste of time and
resources. You have your ratings and the diagnostic codes - use them.
If you requested a copy of your C-File a summary rating sheet is
included with all diagnostic codes and how/where the disease and
illness incurred. Whether that be GW-INC Vietnam etc. Of course I am
not referring to you and Steve because you have to have at least a 60%
combined rating and TDIU does not count.

Snoopy

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Jun 7, 2003, 4:39:21 PM6/7/03
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**delurking***
I would like to thank the people who brought the links to the CRSC
application. It was a big help. But I do have a question that maybe
you can help out with at least give me an opinion.
I normally fill out the paperwork for my Dad. He was diagnosed
with Prostate cancer and initally rated at 10%. About a month ago, he
went to the VA to more rating. But for scenario sake, let's say it is
still 10% and falls under the presumptive Agent Orange program.
Since no one, that I am aware of, was given a Purple Heart for the
exposure, would he be eligable to apply for CRSC since it falls
under the presumptive program?

Thanks for your insight in this matter

David

Dan

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Jun 7, 2003, 5:38:02 PM6/7/03
to
Well Roger, since I am 100% P&T and Purple Heart, I really have
nothing to worry about......done deal for me.

Mess cooks tho are another story. Good luck explaining combat for
that one, fella.

(Bet you are one of the first rejections for a bullshit app as well)


rfr...@satx.rr.com wrote in message news:<42c4evgma6blrfk9r...@4ax.com>...

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 6:58:26 PM6/7/03
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On 7 Jun 2003 14:38:02 -0700, fx...@yahoo.com (Dan) wrote:
>Well Roger, since I am 100% P&T and Purple Heart, I really have
>nothing to worry about......done deal for me.

And I am Fred Flinstone ...

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 7:19:47 PM6/7/03
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On 7 Jun 2003 14:38:02 -0700, fx...@yahoo.com (Dan) wrote:

>Well Roger, since I am 100% P&T and Purple Heart, I really have

Dan, you must have been talking about yourself here:

"He's an old, mediocre, disgruntled fellow who envies the folks who
took the bullet in one way or another...sad, really...he is either a
real wannabe type mentally, or just another clown who did his 20 and
faded away taking some resentment for a lack luster period in his
life."

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 7:52:42 PM6/7/03
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>(Bet you are one of the first rejections for a bullshit app as well)

It takes a moron would say something like that and only a moron would
think his war time service is any better than another combat veterans.
Also, only a moron would brag about receiving a purple heart. You
obviously know nothing about the toxic exposures and scud missile
attacks during the Gulf War. You think your little time as a combat
medic makes you better than your fellow veterans. You aren't any
better than any other disabled veteran. You and Win are the only two
people I have run across that thinks that appear to think that way.
The three stooges - You and Fred and Win should be real proud of your
selves.

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 8:01:59 PM6/7/03
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>Well Roger, since I am 100% P&T and Purple Heart, I really have
>nothing to worry about......done deal for me.

Dan, you have something to worry about because your 100% rating is
somewhat misleading ... You only have a combined rating of 70% and
TDIU does not count toward combat disability. So you will only get
combat related compensation for combat disabilities (if any) within
your 70% rating. Sounds like it is not quite the done deal that you
thought it do be. Looks like many of us our in a better position than
you are regarding CRSC.

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 8:12:40 PM6/7/03
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>Well Roger, since I am 100% P&T and Purple Heart, I really have
>nothing to worry about......done deal for me.

This is funny ... You think you are going to get 100% Combat Related
Special Compensation because you have a combined rating of 70% with
TDIU. You should do better research before running your mouth. Many of
us have higher combat related combined ratings than you have. There is
a good chance you will only get the 10% you received for your PH and
that is it.

Dan

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Jun 7, 2003, 9:02:57 PM6/7/03
to
Rofer

No you are not Fred Flintstone but the voices in your head may sound
like that.

Not to worry because I am bonafide and you are not. REMF? Mess cook?

My thought is that you are not even qualified for CRSC and spend you
time annoying others who are. No problem though because my check for
2193 will be coming soon. You can try to conjur up some horseshit
like the rest of your nonsense postings but I couldn't care less.
Have fun doing whatever it is that gets your cookies asshole, the rest
of us bonafides simply laugh at your ridiculous running of the mouth.

rfr...@satx.rr.com wrote in message news:<g7r4ev8nrnse4n7gj...@4ax.com>...

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 9:31:50 PM6/7/03
to
that is going to be hard for you to do since you only have a combined
rating of 70%. You don't seem to understand a simple concept that the
extra 30% you receive for TDIU does not count. Why do you think you
will get 100% when you are only 70% rated. Please explain.

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 10:29:41 PM6/7/03
to
Dan, why didn't you tell us you are buddies with Win's partner
Robert? "Rob12Ret"

http://pub49.ezboard.com/fvetbenefitsfrm63.showMessage?topicID=16.topic

I am glad I found this out as it explains a lot of things. Are you
getting a commission?

Perry

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Jun 7, 2003, 10:43:07 PM6/7/03
to

gotta have 60% to even qualify.

Perry

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Jun 7, 2003, 10:46:09 PM6/7/03
to
On 7 Jun 2003 14:38:02 -0700, fx...@yahoo.com (Dan) wrote:

>Well Roger, since I am 100% P&T and Purple Heart, I really have
>nothing to worry about......done deal for me.
>
>Mess cooks tho are another story. Good luck explaining combat for
>that one, fella.
>
>(Bet you are one of the first rejections for a bullshit app as well)

man that is a low blow, doesn't say much about your character does it?

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 11:01:37 PM6/7/03
to
>man that is a low blow, doesn't say much about your character does it?

Perry, I don' pay much attention to Dan because he is buddies with Win
and Rob - who run the CR LEG site. Dan hosts a forum at:

http://pub49.ezboard.com/fvetbenefitsfrm63

he thinks because he is TDIU that he will receive combat special
compensation at the 100% rate, even though his combined rating is only
70%. He got mad at me for busting his bubble, and still thinks he will
get it at the TDIU rate. Amazing!

Perry

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Jun 7, 2003, 11:13:26 PM6/7/03
to


He needs to read the last article from Rick Maze because he used that
as an example of some retired are going to be disappointed.

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 11:30:59 PM6/7/03
to
>He needs to read the last article from Rick Maze because he used that
>as an example of some retired are going to be disappointed.

Do you want to know something really funny ??? I just noticed that
the person in the article is the same Dan we are talking about . So he
whines in the article that he will only be getting paid the 70% rate
and claims on the web forums and this very newsgroup that he will get
the 100% rate. Think this guy is confused. It is the same Dan though
( Daniel McCarthy) and he comes across whining in the article the same
way he does on here:

http://www.crlegislation.com/News/rickmaze%206-2.jpg

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 7, 2003, 11:54:09 PM6/7/03
to
After looking at this again it amazes me how greedy people like Dan
can be. Why should we who have combat related disabilities be paid at
the dependents rate, and why should TDIU be allowed? We are already
getting VA compensation for those purposes and this is a separate
program. Understand some people , like Dan for example, want the
entire cake but this just sounds plain greedy to me. He should be
thankful if he gets anything because there a lot of disabled veterans
who were left in the cold. It is written that the love of money is the
root of all evil and some people are just plain miserable and greedy.
Dan doesn't understand that VA comp and CRSC are two entirely
different programs. I am glad most of my fellow Veterans on here do
not appear to be the greedy type. Life is too short to be greedy and
miserable.

Dan

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Jun 8, 2003, 1:26:53 AM6/8/03
to
Perry,

I'll leave it at this. rfrego (and ego hits the mark...this guy posts
answrs to himself) has hit every damn NG and forum on the net giving
advice and making decisons, but tells us nothing of himself and his
disabilities, makes grand judgements and interpretations (which the
services readily admit they have no answers for and DFAS has no idea
of what will and will not be paid), and is generall an annoyance.

Anything i post, I reference the source or clearly state that it is an
opinion. Roger, on the other hand, attacks CRLegislation, makes
accusations and generally spews forth hatred and innuendo.

Look around...maybe I shot at his silly ass for his benevolent
attitude, but I refrain from out and out slander (read what Roger does
with CRLegislation).

You make the call on who is honest and forthright...I never invited or
solicited anyone here to any web site (including theone I am a
moderator on), so what is Roger's beef? Think about it./


Perry <arm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9u85evc1clu83h4os...@4ax.com>...

Snoopy

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Jun 8, 2003, 10:36:00 AM6/8/03
to
So in short,You need 60%, plus a related Purple Heart award and draw
retired pay?

Just wanna make sure I am clear on it. Hate to tie up the system with
an application that is not even worth submitting.

Also say his rating did go up to 60%, without related purple heart,
would he qualify. There should be a Matrix to make this easier.

David


On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 02:43:07 GMT, Perry <arm...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 8, 2003, 12:34:08 PM6/8/03
to
>attitude, but I refrain from out and out slander (read what Roger does
>with CRLegislation).

Slander my butt. What I post can be proven. He is the one who
slandered me on this newsgroup and posted personal information I gave
him as a charter member and the donation etc. You best check your
facts before making comments like that. I have yet to see a retraction
from Win.

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 8, 2003, 12:47:03 PM6/8/03
to
>I'll leave it at this. rfrego (and ego hits the mark...this guy posts
>answrs to himself) has hit every damn NG and forum on the net giving
>advice and making decisons,

Another lie ... I post two maybe 2 areas on the web, this newsgroup
and the site you moderate. I am also signed up for one mail list that
I post to from time to time. So, once again you are proven to be a
liar. Please post all those NG I have been posting to.

> makes grand judgements and interpretations (which the
>services readily admit they have no answers for and DFAS has no idea
>of what will and will not be paid), and is generall an annoyance.

Sounds like you are still whining because you are not going get that
100% rate with dependents because you only have a combined rating of
70%. Be thankful for what you can get.

>Anything i post, I reference the source or clearly state that it is an
>opinion. Roger, on the other hand, attacks CRLegislation, makes
>accusations and generally spews forth hatred and innuendo.

I only posts facts. Win is the one that lied to this newsgroup to
defame my name and has refused to retract even though I have email he
sent me with headers, and a pay pal receipt with a note he attached
that clearly proves he is a liar. You are just mad because the most
you can get it 70% and you don't think that is fair. That is just too
damn bad.

>out slander (read what Roger does
>with CRLegislation).

It was clear who slandered who and who and refused to make a
retraction for the slanderous lies he posted. Any organizations that
posts personal information about charter members and lies about a
donations should have their organization closed down.

>You make the call on who is honest and forthright...

Hopefully once you produce all those newsgroups you said I was posting
to that they will make up their mind. I am sure there are at least
5000 or so newsgroups and I post to one newsgroup and one forum. That
is 2 out of 5000. Now we let us make the call on who is honest and
forthright. You liar.

rfr...@satx.rr.com

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Jun 8, 2003, 3:03:51 PM6/8/03
to
>opinion. Roger, on the other hand, attacks CRLegislation, makes
>accusations and generally spews forth hatred and innuendo.

Dan, what false accusations did I make?? He boasted about getting his
buddies to leak him information before it was supposed to be released
to the public. As a former officer he should know better than to do
that and publicize it. Of course it was publicized to promote his
organization. Are you claiming this to be false accusations? He also
stated when I submitted a donation he promptly returned it to me and I
was not a charter members. Those are two lies and I can be proven
based on email he sent me several times and my pay pal receipt with
note attached. So what part of these are false??? Or are you now his
spokesmen because he has not showed up to make a retraction regarding
the lies he told on this news group, as a head of a tax exempt
organization. As far as those active duty officers he had listed under
his visa/mastercard logo it was my duty to contact each one of them
and insure they get clearance from JAG and/or their Ethics counselor
before attending the conference. As a tax payer I am concerned that my
tax dollars are used wisely and does not in any way contribute to
organizations that post personal information about a charter member on
a newsgroup or elsewhere without that charter members permission, and
posts donation information, and lies about it. That is exactly what
happened . He lost credibility because of his own unprofessional
conduct on this newsgroup and now it appears his candy has been taken
away from him as a result. As a result of his lies on this newsgroup
he can no longer be trusted and hopefully he will just close his site
down as his DOD fuel line gets dried up. WIthout a public retraction I
don't see anyway he can right the wrong he did as a head of a tax
exempt organization. Thanks for your understanding in this matter.
Let's work together and support organizations that have a high degree
of ethics and work for all veterans who wear or wore this country's
uniform. Let us all remember those logistical/supply folks who were
ambushed in Iraq and slaughtered. Those folks wore our country's
uniform and deserve the same respect that all veterans reserve. Let's
not forget those cooks that were blown up in the USS Cole .. Those
warriors wore this country's uniform and deserve the same respect as
all veterans. Those organizations that do not support such military
occupation specialists should not be receiving tax exempt status
period! What he did was shameful and a retractions is warranted. I
couldn't help but to think of those military cooks that were killed in
the USS Cole and those other quartermaster soldiers who were
slaughtered in Iraq when he made those comments. Whenever someone
makes comments like that I think those who died in service for our
country while serving in those occupational specialties.

Perry

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Jun 8, 2003, 3:39:13 PM6/8/03
to
On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 10:36:00 -0400, Snoopy <snoo...@aol.com> wrote:

>So in short,You need 60%, plus a related Purple Heart award and draw
>retired pay?

No one of the other will get you in the door.


>
>Just wanna make sure I am clear on it. Hate to tie up the system with
>an application that is not even worth submitting.
>
>Also say his rating did go up to 60%, without related purple heart,
>would he qualify. There should be a Matrix to make this easier.

Yes if it meets the other qualifications
>
>David

here is a good site for information assuming you can't log on the DoD
site.

http://www.usdr.org/

and below is the Program Guidance, it is long but I posted it anyone
because it may also help someone else who can't log on the DoD site.


Combat-Related Special Compensation
Section 636, Public Law 107-314, December 2, 2002
Section 1413a,Title 10, United States Code

Program Guidance

GENERAL: Combat-Related Special Compensation (CRSC) for certain
disabled Uniformed Service Retirees has been codified in law at
section 1413a, title 10, United States Code. The law was enacted
December 2, 2002, by Section 636 of the National Defense Authorization
Act for Fiscal Year 2003 (Public Law 107-314, December 2, 2002). CRSC
provides compensation to certain retirees with combat-related
disabilities that qualify under the criteria set forth in the law as
implemented by this guidance. This program guidance memorandum
prescribes responsibilities and procedures to identify and pay those
retired members who qualify to receive CRSC.

EFFECTIVE DATE: The CRSC program will become effective May 31, 2003.
For members qualified on that date, compensation accrues beginning
June 2003. Payments are made on the first business day of the first
month following the month in which the compensation accrued (e.g., the
first payments may be made to qualified members on July 1, 2003). No
CRSC is payable for any month before June 2003.

TAX CONSIDERATIONS: The Armed Forces Tax Council (AFTC) has been
requested to review expeditiously the appropriate treatment of CRSC
for income tax purposes. Pending that review, the Department intends
to treat CRSC as exempt from Federal income tax under 26 U.S.C. 104.

FUNDING AND PAYMENT: CRSC is not military retired pay. It is to be
paid from funds appropriated for pay and allowances payable by the
Secretary of the Military Department concerned for that fiscal year.
Supplemental guidance will be issued concerning which year’s funds
should be used for retroactive payments that cross fiscal years.

RELATIONSHIP TO OTHER PROVISIONS: Since CRSC is not retired pay, it is
not subject to the provisions of section 1408, title 10, United States
Code, relating to payment of retired or retainer pay in compliance
with court orders. CRSC is also not subject to any survivor benefit
provisions of chapter 73, title 10, United States Code. CRSC is
subject to a Treasury offset to recover a debt owed to the United
States as well as to garnishment for child support or alimony.

NON-DOD UNIFORMED SERVICES: CRSC applies to retired members of any
Uniformed Service, including retired members of the U.S. Coast Guard,
and the Commissioned Corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric
Administration and the Public Health Service. DoD guidance and program
development will be coordinated with such Services to support their
internal program implementation. They may modify these procedures as
appropriate for their Departments with supplemental guidance and
instructions to correlate responsibilities and effect implementation
for their agency.

ENTITLEMENT: CRSC is a monthly entitlement and is to be paid only in
whole month increments according to the procedures prescribed herein.
To be entitled to CRSC, a member must file an application with the
Military Department from which the member retired in accordance with
the procedures and criteria prescribed herein. Applications for CRSC
will be processed by the respective Military Department under the
guidelines prescribed in these instructions.

A retiree is entitled to CRSC for each month during which, for the
entire month, the retiree:

a. Has applied for and elected CRSC under these provisions, and
b. Meets Preliminary CRSC Criteria, and
c. Meets Final CRSC Criteria – (that is, has a qualifying
combat-related disability or disabilities)

APPLICATION AND ELECTION OF CRSC: A member may not be paid CRSC unless
he/she has applied for and elected to receive compensation under the
CRSC program. Such application must be submitted in accordance with
the procedures and criteria as prescribed herein. A DoD CRSC
application form will be developed in accordance with this guidance by
the Director of Compensation, Office of the Deputy Under Secretary of
Defense (Military Personnel Policy). Members seeking CRSC
compensation will submit CRSC applications to the designated office of
the Military Department from which they retired.

Members may submit an application for CRSC at any time and, if
otherwise qualified for CRSC, compensation will be paid for any month
after May 2003 for which all conditions of eligibility were met,
retroactive to the extent otherwise allowed by law.

ELECTION OF CRSC UNDER 10 USC 1413a OR SPECIAL COMPENSATION UNDER 10
USC 1413: The law requires that a member eligible for both CRSC as
provided by 10 USC 1413a and Special Compensation for Severely
Disabled retirees (SCSD) as provided by 10 USC 1413 may not receive
both but must elect which special compensation to receive. Such
election will be made as part of the CRSC application process. The
election, in which a member allows the finance center to elect on his
or her behalf the greater of the two payments, will be incorporated in
the application form. The finance center will advise the member which
of the two payments is being paid pursuant to this election and will
also provide further notice in the event the amounts payable under
either program cause this election to be changed.

PRELIMINARY CRSC CRITERIA: A retired member of the Uniformed Services
who meets each of the four following conditions will be considered to
meet the Preliminary CRSC Criteria:

1. Has 20 or more years of service in the Uniformed Services for
purposes of computing the amount of retired pay.

NOTE 1: Members retired under the provisions of section 4403 of Public
Law 102-484, October 23, 1992, commonly referred to as the TERA
program -- Temporary Early Retirement Authority -- are not eligible,
even if they have subsequently served in Public And Community Service
(PACS) positions creditable for re-computation of retired pay at age
62, unless the member has been recalled to active duty long enough to
accumulate 20 years or more of service in the Uniformed Services for
purposes of computing the amount of retired pay.

NOTE 2: The 20 years of service required for computing the amount of
retired pay may be inferred from the retired pay multiplier. However,
the Military Departments are not bound by such presumption if there is
documentary information to the contrary, such as a TERA retirement. In
such cases the Military Departments shall base their determinations on
the documentary information available.

A member who retired for years of service (not for disability under
chapter 61 of title 10) who has a retired pay multiplier not less than
50 percent, or a Reserve retiree who has a retired pay multiplier not
less than 50 percent, or a member retired under REDUX who is still
under age 62 with a retired pay multiplier not less than 40 percent,
may be presumed to have 20 years of service for retired pay
computation purposes. A member who retired under chapter 61 of title
10 should be evaluated in terms of what the multiplier would be if not
retired for disability.

For example, consider a member with a 50% multiplier who is a TERA
retiree with a 10 percent increase in retired pay granted on the basis
of extraordinary heroism. Such documentary information would be used
to deny CRSC qualification.

NOTE 3. A retired Reservist with retired pay computed under the
provisions of chapter 1223 (formerly chapter 67), title 10, USC, must
have 20 or more years of service as defined by 10 USC 12733. Thus, to
be eligible for CRSC, such retirees must have 7,200 or more total
points under clauses (1), (2), (3), and (4) of 10 USC 12733.

2. Is in a retired status (i.e., is on the retired rolls, or has been
transferred to the Fleet Reserve or Fleet Marine Corps Reserve).

NOTE: Members recalled to, or retained on, active duty are not in a
retired
status during the period of such recall or retention.

3. Is entitled to retired pay, notwithstanding that such retired pay
may be
reduced due to receipt of VA disability compensation.

A member who waives military retired pay in order to credit military
service
for purposes of a civil service retirement, or for any reason other
than to
receive disability compensation from the VA, is not eligible for CRSC.

4. Has qualifying disability ratings (percentages): A retiree must
have at least
one of the following (a. or b.):

a. A current combined VA disability rating (according to the VA
combined rating table) for disabilities that meet the following
prescribed thresholds:

1. A current combined VA disability rating of at least 10% disabling
if the retiree has been awarded a Purple Heart, or
2. A current combined VA disability rating of at least 60% disabling.

b. A combined disability rating from the Secretary of the Military
Department concerned, as of the date on which the member retired
from the Military Department, that meets the following prescribed
thresholds:

1. A combined disability rating of at least 10% disabling if the
retiree has been awarded a Purple Heart, or
2. A combined disability rating of at least 60 % percent disabling.
If a member does not satisfy each of the Preliminary CRSC Criteria in
paragraphs 1 through 4 above, no further consideration by the Military
Department is necessary. The member does not meet Preliminary CRSC
Criteria and the application will be denied accordingly. A member
should reapply at such time as his/her ratings satisfy the specified
thresholds and he/she meets all four Preliminary CRSC Criteria.

Note that while disability ratings by the Secretary of the Military
Department, as of the date on which the member retired, may be used to
determine whether the member meets Preliminary CRSC Criteria, the
actual computation of CRSC amount (see section below - - Monthly
Amount of CRSC) is based solely on VA disability determinations and
the amount of VA compensation paid. Military retirement decisions may
be used to determine whether such disabilities are combat-related.

If the applicant meets each of the Preliminary CRSC Criteria of
paragraphs 1 through 4 above, the Military Departments will determine
whether the member’s disabilities are qualifying combat-related
disabilities as prescribed below.

FINAL CRSC CRITERIA -- QUALIFYING COMBAT-RELATED DISABILITY: A retiree
is entitled to CRSC only if the combined disability rating from the
Secretary of the Military Department concerned, as of the date on
which the member retired, or the current combined disability rating
(according to the VA
combined ratings table) meets the following prescribed thresholds
determined solely on the basis of those disabilities determined to be
either Purple Heart Disabilities for paragraph a. below, or to be
Combat-Related Disabilities (which includes any Purple Heart
Disabilities) for paragraph b. below:

a. For a member who has been awarded a Purple Heart, a combined
disability rating for Purple Heart Disabilities that is at least 10%
disabling, or

b. A combined disability rating for all combat-related disabilities
that is at least 60% disabling.

The VA Combined Ratings Table is used to combine multiple disability
ratings. This table and its use are set forth in title 38 of the Code
of Federal Regulations (CFR), Chapter I, Part 4, Section 4.25. The
table results from the consideration of the efficiency of the
individual as affected by the most disabling condition, then by the
less disabling condition, then by other less disabling conditions, if
any, in the order of severity. Thus, a person having a 60% disability
is considered 40% efficient. Proceeding from this 40% efficiency, the
effect of a further 30% disability is to leave only 70% of the
efficiency remaining after consideration of the first disability (70%
of 40%) leaving 28% efficiency altogether. The individual is thus 72%
disabled.

When more than two disabilities are combined, this process continues
by combining other lesser disabilities with the resultant disability
thus far. No rounding is done until the last disability has been
combined. After the last disability has been combined, the result will
be rounded to a percent divisible by 10, and combined values ending in
5 or greater will be adjusted upward and those ending in 4 or less
adjusted downward.

In application, a combined rating of multiple disabilities is obtained
by:

1. Subtract each disability percent from 100% to obtain the remaining
efficiency.
2. Multiply the remaining efficiencies together.
3. Subtract the result from 100%.
4. Round to the nearest 10%, round up for 5% and above, down
otherwise.

Example 1: Consider a member having 3 disabilities: one rated 50%, one
rated 40%, and one rated 30%. If added together the total would be
120%. Instead, the member’s combined rating is determined as follows:

1. The three disabilities leave efficiencies of 50%, 60%, and 70%
respectively.
2. These multiply against each other as 50% * 60% * 70% = 21%.
3. The disability is 100% - 21% = 79%.
4. Adjust this result upward to 80% combined disability.

Example 1-1: Now consider what happens if the Military Department
determines that only the 40% and 30% disabilities are combat-related,
then the member’s combined disability rating for CRSC would be:

1. The two disabilities of 40% and 30% leave efficiencies of 60% and
70%.
2. These multiply against each other as 60% * 70% = 42%.
3. The disability is 100% - 42% = 58%.
4. Adjust this result upward to 60% combined disability rating.

PURPLE HEART DISABILITY: A Purple Heart Disability is a disability
with an assigned medical diagnosis code from the VA Schedule for
Rating Disabilities (VASRD) that was attributed to injuries for which
the member was awarded a Purple Heart.

If a member meets the Preliminary CRSC Criteria and has been awarded a
Purple Heart, the Military Department must determine which
disabilities of the member, if any, are attributable to such Purple
Heart injuries. If the member has not been awarded a Purple Heart, no
such determinations will be made.

Determination that a disability is a Purple Heart Disability requires
documentary information that there is a sufficient causal relationship
between the disability and the injury for which a Purple Heart was
awarded to conclude that the disability is attributable to such
injury. Such a disability will be classified as a Purple Heart
Disability and will also be included in any other CRSC determinations
based on combat-related disabilities. With respect to an application
of a retiree who meets Preliminary CRSC Criteria and who was awarded
the Purple Heart, the Military Department will record whether or not
each disability rated by the VA is or is not attributable to an injury
for which the member was awarded the Purple Heart.

OTHER COMBAT-RELATED DISABILITIES: A combat-related disability is a
disability with an assigned medical diagnosis code from the VA
Schedule for Rating Disabilities (VASRD) that was incurred:

a. As a direct result of armed conflict,
b. While engaged in hazardous service,
c. In the performance of duty under conditions simulating war, or
d. Through an instrumentality of war.

The Military Departments will determine whether a disability is
combat-related under a, b, c, or d, above, using the definitions and
criteria set forth in attachment 1-1 and this memorandum.

The Military Department shall record for each disability determined to
be combat-related which of the circumstances above (a, b, c, or d)
qualifies the disability as combat-related.

A determination of combat-relatedness will be made with respect to
each separate disability with an assigned medical diagnosis code from
the VA Schedule for Rating Disabilities (VASRD).

A retiree may have disabilities that are not combat-related. Such
disabilities will not be considered in determining eligibility for
CRSC or the amount of CRSC payable.

With respect to VA awards of service-connection based on presumptive
conditions under the provisions of 38 USC 1112(b) and (c), 1116, 1117,
and 1118 and of 38 CFR 3.316, CRSC determinations will presume such
disability to also be combat-related if the VA Initial Rating Form (or
other substantiating
documentary information) indicates that the VA rating for the
disability is based on such presumption. Thus, disabilities rated by
the VA on the basis of exposure to radiation, mustard gas or lewisite,
Agent Orange, and those disabilities associated with Persian Gulf
service that are presumed by the VA to be service-connected shall be
presumed by the Military Department to be combat-related absent
documentary information that the disability was incurred under
circumstances that were not combat-related.

With respect to VA awards of service-connection for presumptive
conditions under 38 USC 1112(a) and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
(PTSD - VASRD Code 9411), the Military Department must independently
determine the relationship between that disability and the qualifying
criteria.

The Military Departments are not bound by any presumption described
above if there is documentary information that the disability is not
combat-related. The Military Departments shall base their
determinations on such information. An uncorroborated statement in a
record that a disability is combat-related will not, in and of itself,
be considered determinative for purposes of meeting the combat-related
standards for CRSC prescribed herein. CRSC determinations must be made
on the basis of the program criteria.

PROCESSING OF APPLICATIONS: Each Military Department will receive and
process CRSC applications submitted by members retired from that
Military Department. Applications will be reviewed, and an application
will be approved only if the applicant satisfies both Preliminary and
Final CRSC criteria. The member’s respective finance center will be
notified of an approved application for processing and payment as
appropriate. If the applicant does not satisfy both sets of criteria,
the application will be denied. The member may reapply at such time as
he/she satisfies the specified criteria or is able to present
documentation establishing that all criteria have been satisfied.
Military Departments will notify members of all decisions with respect
to their applications.

When an application is denied, the Military Department will inform the
member of: (1) the reason for denial and (2) the options for
reconsideration and/or appeal (see section below—DENIAL AND APPEALS).
Reasons for denial should state any criteria the application fails to
meet. The Director of Compensation, ODUSD(MPP), will provide the
Military Departments a listing of criteria that can be used as a
checklist for this purpose. Each Military Department will retain all
records related to applications and their disposition until further
guidance is provided concerning record retention policy.

The objective in processing a CRSC application is to determine whether
an applicant can be identified as a Uniformed Services retiree,
determined to meet Preliminary CRSC Criteria, and if so, determined to
meet Final CRSC Criteria. Final CRSC Criteria requires a determination
by the Military Department of which, if any, of the member’s
disabilities compensated by the VA are Purple Heart Disabilities
and/or combat-related disabilities. VA ratings are the sole discretion
of the VA and not subject to challenge
through the CRSC program. If the member disagrees with the evaluation
assigned by the VA, the retiree must seek an increased evaluation
through the VA.

BASIS FOR DETERMINATIONS: Determinations of whether a disability is
combat-related will be based on the preponderance of available
documentary information where quality of information is more important
than quantity. All relevant documentary information is to be weighed
in relation to known facts and circumstances, and determinations will
be made on the basis of credible, objective documentary information in
the records as distinguished from personal opinion, speculation, or
conjecture.

The burden of proof that a disability is combat-related rests with the
applicant and members will be required to provide copies of documents
in their possession to the best of their ability. A record submitted
by a member may be used in support of his/her application if that
record appears regular on its face and is consistent with Military
Service documents and procedures in use at the time, based on the best
information available. Military Departments may compile a list of
typical documents used in various time periods (with samples, as
appropriate). When documentary information provided by the member, in
conjunction with automated Service records, is insufficient to support
a determination that the disability is combat-related, the Military
Department may seek additional documentary information, including
documents from the National Personnel Records Center and/or the VA as,
in the determination of the Military Department, is likely to be
useful in providing relevant information.

The Department of Veterans’ Affairs (VA), under agreement with the
Department of Defense, will provide a record extract to support CRSC
determinations at the specific request of a Military Department under
procedures announced by the Director of Compensation, ODUSD(MPP). In
response to such requests, the VA will provide a record extract
containing:

a. A copy of any DD form 214s on file.
b. A copy of the Service Medical Record
c. A copy of any final ratings prepared by the VA.

DENIAL AND APPEALS: When a Military Department denies a CRSC
application, it will provide a letter to the member specifying the
reason(s) for the denial. The Military Department will inform the
member that he/she may seek reconsideration by submitting additional,
clarifying, or new documentary information to the Military Department
in support of his or her application. The Military Department will
review the additional, clarifying, or new documentary information and
will inform the member of the results of the review. The Military
Department will also inform the member that CRSC is subject to the
same appeals and correction processes applicable to military pay and
allowances generally, including application to the appropriate Board
for Correction of Military Records (BCMR) under the provisions of 10
U.S.C. 1552. The Military Department will provide the member a DD form
149, Application for Correction of Military Records, and the address
of the BCMR, including its website. In considering an application
where the issue of whether a disability is combat-related for the
purposes of CRSC, the BCMR will seek an advisory opinion from the
Director of Compensation, Office of the Deputy Under Secretary of
Defense (Military Personnel Policy), and comply with the requirements
of 10 U.S.C. 1556. The BCMR will provide the Director of Compensation
a copy of any final decision concerning any application involving a
determination as to whether a disability is combat-related.

MONTHLY AMOUNT OF CRSC: The monthly amount of CRSC is equal to the
Full Monthly Amount prescribed in paragraph a below, reduced as
prescribed in paragraph b, and limited according to paragraph c.

a. Full Monthly Amount: The monthly amount of disability compensation
the member would be paid by the VA under the provisions of chapter 11,
title 38, United States Code, if compensated solely for the
disabilities determined to be attributable to an injury for which the
member received the Purple Heart or determined to be otherwise
combat-related as described above. The rates of such compensation are
set forth in 38 U.S.C. 1114. Additional compensation for dependents
will not be considered in determining the amount of the CRSC monthly
payment. Amounts of Special Monthly Compensation (SMC) will be
considered only if the SMC is paid on the basis of disabilities that
have been determined to be combat-related as described above.
Supplemental guidance will be issued for members receiving Special
Monthly Compensation (SMC) on the basis of combat-related
disabilities.

If the member’s current combined VA rating for a combat-related
disability is different than the rating the member received from the
Secretary of the Military Department, as of the date on which the
member retired, the Full Monthly Amount is computed as the monthly
compensation payment the member would be entitled to solely for the
combat-related disability consistent with chapter 11 of title 38,
which is based on the current combined VA rating rather than the
rating from the Secretary of the Military Department.

A retiree who qualifies for CRSC on the basis of the 60% threshold for
combat-related disabilities will receive CRSC computed solely on the
basis of the combined disability rating of the combat-related
disabilities, including any Purple Heart Disabilities. Any VA award
for disabilities determined to be not combat-related will be ignored.

A retiree who does not qualify for CRSC on the 60% threshold basis but
qualifies for CRSC solely on the basis of Purple Heart Disabilities
will receive CRSC computed
solely on the basis of the combined disability rating for the Purple
Heart Disabilities.
Any VA award for disabilities not attributable to an injury for which
the member was
awarded the Purple Heart will be ignored.

Example a-1: A married member with two children has qualifying
combat-related disabilities rated at 100% by the VA. The member’s
current monthly VA benefit amount is $2,472 -- the prescribed rate for
a 100% disability for a veteran with a spouse and two children.
However, the Full Monthly Amount for CRSC purposes is the rate that
would be paid solely for the combat-related disability, not
compensation for dependents. This amount is $2,193.

b. Reduction for Chapter 61 retirees: The Full Monthly Amount
specified in paragraph a above will be reduced by the amount by which
a member’s current retired pay under chapter 61 exceeds the amount of
retired pay the member would receive if retired under any other
provision of law based on service in the Uniformed Services.

Example b-1: The same member as described in example a-1 retired after
22 years of service with high-three basic pay of $3,000 and has been
determined to have a qualifying combat-related disability rated at
100% by the VA. However, the member was retired under chapter 61 with
a disability rating from the Secretary of the Military Department of
only 60%. Thus, the member receives retired pay of $1,800 monthly (60%
of $3,000). Had this member retired under longevity provisions with 22
years of service, the retired pay would have been $1,650 monthly (55%
of $3,000). The member’s CRSC payment will be reduced by the
difference in these two amounts, or $150 ($1,800 - $1,650). This
reduction reflects the amount by which his disability retired pay
exceeds his longevity retired pay. The member’s potential CRSC benefit
would now be reduced from $2,193 as determined under Step a. to $2,043
under Step b. ($2,193 minus $150).

c. Maximum Amount: The maximum CRSC payment may not exceed the current
reduction in retired pay applicable to the retiree under sections 5304
and 5305 of title 38, United States Code. Thus, CRSC is not payable if
there is no reduction under section 5304 and 5305 because the member
is not receiving any monthly disability compensation from the VA, or
because the member is not receiving retired pay for other reasons
(such as a member who waives military retired pay in order to credit
military service for a civil service retirement). The monthly CRSC
payment cannot exceed the member’s full retired pay entitlement.

Example c-1: Consider the same member described in examples a-1 and
b-1. The CRSC Full Monthly Amount of $2,193 has been reduced by $150
under Step b to $2,043, but is limited in this step to no more than
the member is offset due to receipt of VA disability compensation.
This member’s entire retired pay of $1,800 is fully reduced and that
is the maximum the member can be paid.

VA Retroactive Increase: When the VA makes a retroactive increase in a
member’s VA disability compensation pertinent to a member’s
combat-related disabilities under CRSC, no retroactive amount will be
paid under CRSC as there is no retroactive adjustment in retired pay
for such increased compensation. Any increase affecting CRSC qualified
disabilities in the current month requires that CRSC be recomputed.

Supplemental guidance will be issued to address the possibility of a
retroactive decrease in VA disability compensation.

RESPONSIBILITIES WITHIN DOD: In order to facilitate the implementation
and administration of 10 USC 1413a, each agency with responsibilities
shall designate a point of contact to the Director of Compensation,
Office of the Deputy Under Secretary of Defense (Military Personnel
Management), or OSD Director of Compensation.

DIRECTOR OF COMPENSATION, OFFICE OF THE DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY OF
DEFENSE (MILITARY PERSONNEL POLICY): The Director of Compensation
shall:

a. Serve as the central point of contact among all agencies that have
implementation responsibilities and shall coordinate resolution of any
problems that might prevent timely payment of CRSC.
b. Develop and maintain a CRSC application form.
c. Provide the Military Departments a list of criteria for CRSC
qualification for use in approving and denying applications and
informing applicants of the determinations made.
d. Prepare information and lists as required to support the Military
Departments in their review processes and shall also staff additional
guidance for the determination of when Special Monthly
Compensation (SMC) paid by the VA is considered paid on the basis of a
combat-related disability.
e. Provide advisory opinions upon request of a Board for Correction of
Military Records.
f. Publish examples of CRSC compensation to assist Military
Departments and DFAS in explaining and computing CRSC.
g. Collect information from the Military Departments to assess the
consistency and uniformity of determinations under this program and
pursue supplemental guidance as necessary to achieve reasonable
uniformity.

DEFENSE FINANCE AND ACCOUNTING SERVICE (DFAS): DFAS shall:

a. Receive determinations on combat-related disabilities from the
Military Departments and coordinate that information with information
provided by the Department of Veterans Affairs relating to such
disabilities. DFAS will exchange such data with the VA as needed to
support the continuing adjustment of CRSC payments.
b. Compute the CRSC amount payable based on the determinations of the
Military Departments and data provided by the VA.
c. Develop and implement standard accounting and administration
policies needed to support payment of CRSC.
d. Assist Services in their determinations of whether CRSC applicants
meet Preliminary CRSC Criteria.

MILITARY DEPARTMENTS: Each Military Department shall:

a. Identify for DFAS a primary Point of Contact for CRSC funding
issues. The POC must ensure DFAS has access to funds required to pay
CRSC.
b. Provide an address for members to submit applications for CRSC.
c. Implement a review and determination process for the CRSC
applications submitted by members retired from that Military
Department,
d. Report to DFAS all determinations regarding members entitled to
CRSC in a manner prescribed by DFAS.
e. Support DFAS with timely and accurate data on retirees of the
Military Department.
f. Provide timely correction of erroneous data or records.
g. Refer issues raised in the administration of the program to the OSD
Director of Compensation.
h. Provide information to the OSD Director of Compensation as
requested to support appeals and reviews of policy issues.
i. Submit reports to the OSD Director of Compensation as required
herein.

DMDC: DMDC shall host a web-site program to assist members in
evaluating the likelihood of whether their disabilities qualify under
the CRSC program and complete an application on line and print it for
mailing to the member’s Military Department. Contents of the web site
will be coordinated with the Director of Compensation, ODUSD(MPP).

Attachment 1-1 Determinations of Combat-Relatedness The following
criteria, terms, definitions, explanations will apply to making
combat-related determinations in the CRSC program.

Direct Result of Armed Conflict - The disability is a disease or
injury incurred in the line of duty as a direct result of armed
conflict. The fact that a member incurred the disability during a
period of war or an area of armed conflict or while participating in
combat operations is not sufficient to support a combat-related
determination. There must be a definite causal relationship between
the armed conflict and the resulting disability.

Armed conflict includes a war, expedition, occupation of an area or
territory, battle, skirmish, raid, invasion, rebellion, insurrection,
guerilla action, riot, or any other action in which Service members
are engaged with a hostile or belligerent nation, faction, force, or
terrorists.

Armed conflict may also include such situations as incidents involving
a member while interned as a prisoner of war or while detained against
his or her will in custody of a hostile or belligerent force or while
escaping or attempting to escape from such confinement, prisoner of
war, or detained status.

While Engaged in Hazardous Service - Such service includes, but is not
limited to, aerial flight, parachute duty, demolition duty,
experimental stress duty, and diving duty. A finding that a disability
is the result of such hazardous service requires that the injury or
disease be the direct result of actions taken in the performance of
such service. Travel to and from such service, or actions incidental
to a normal duty status not considered hazardous are not included.

In the Performance of Duty Under Conditions Simulating War - In
general this covers disabilities resulting from military training,
such as war games, practice alerts, tactical exercises, airborne
operations, leadership reaction courses, grenade and live fire weapons
practice, bayonet training, hand-to-hand combat training, repelling,
and negotiation of combat confidence and obstacle courses. It does not
include physical training activities such as calisthenics and jogging
or formation running and supervised sport activities.

Instrumentality of War - Incurrence during an actual period of war is
not required. However, there must be a direct causal relationship
between the instrumentality of war and the disability. The disability
must be incurred incident to a hazard or risk of the service.

An instrumentality of war is a vehicle, vessel, or device designed
primarily for Military Service and intended for use in such Service at
the time of the occurrence or injury. It may also include such
instrumentalities not designed primarily for Military Service if use
of or occurrence involving such instrumentality subjects the
individual to a hazard peculiar to Military Service. Such use or
occurrence differs from the use or occurrence under similar
circumstances in civilian pursuits.

A determination that a disability is the result of an instrumentality
of war may be made if the disability was incurred in any period of
service as a result of such diverse causes as wounds caused by a
military weapon, accidents involving a military combat vehicle, injury
or sickness caused by fumes, gases, or explosion of military ordnance,
vehicles, or material.

For example, if a member is on a field exercise and is engaged in a
sporting activity and falls and strikes an armored vehicle, the injury
will not be considered to result from the instrumentality of war
(armored vehicle) because it was the sporting activity that was the
cause of the injury, not the vehicle. On the other hand, if the
individual was engaged in the same sporting activity and the armored
vehicle struck the member, the injury would be considered the result
of an instrumentality of war.


Dan

unread,
Jun 8, 2003, 6:10:33 PM6/8/03
to
Roger, do us al a favor...go back, copy all of your posts on
CR/CRSC/Win, etc. and then post references ("facts" as you say). I
will no longer banter back and forth with one who rants and spews
forth so much anymosity and dribble.

EOC!


rfr...@satx.rr.com wrote in message news:<ndp6evg10ufmdffsu...@4ax.com>...

rfr...@satx.rr.com

unread,
Jun 8, 2003, 6:37:35 PM6/8/03
to
I will do that as soon as you let everyone know the long list of
Newsgoups I post on - liar !
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