VIETNAM ARVN -SECTION TWO

[DGVREIMAN]

VIETNAM ARVN - SECTION TWO

This is not a copyrighted article. You may respond at
alt.war.vietnam.

I was asked to provide more evidence of my negative opinion of Vietnam's
ARVN and the RVN leadership in general during the time of the Vietnam
War. This is part two of two parts. This post gives us what happened
in the latter stages of the war - how the ARVN performed during that
period is key to this issue. Note the American Congress failed to
provide the funding they had promised RVN - which clearly establishes
at least some culpability on the part of the American Congress when it
comes to the failures of the ARVN. . . .


Of course there were some exceptions to the overall rule the ARVN was
a corrupt Army. Some ARVN units excelled, and some ARVN soldiers were
special - but regardless of some that demonstrated personal valor and
efficiency, those few could not overcome the inept ARVN monster that
had been created by the failed RVN political system. . . as we see
evidenced below.

We also see that our Congress was also somewhat culpable in respect to
ARVN failures. . .

The ARVN failed. There were many reasons why it did - but to claim it
was an effective and honorable fighting force is beyond ridiculous, it
is preposterous considering its performance. But to its credit, there
were outside forces that contributed to its failure, as we see below:

http://tinyurl.com/3e7yj The History Place

Excerpts from the above URL: (All excerpts are quotations).

"August 1974- Richard M. Nixon resigns the presidency as result of
Watergate. Gerald R. Ford is sworn in as the 38th U.S. President,
becoming the 6th President coping with Vietnam.

August 1974- The U.S. Congress appropriates only $700 million for
South Vietnam. This leaves the South Vietnamese Army under-funded and
results in a decline of military readiness and morale.

(Doug Says: Once again we see our fearless leaders reneging on a
crucial promise to an ally. The Frank Church, George McGovern led
Congress, and those "useful idiots" (as Vladimir Lenin called them)
that supported them on those University Campuses should often see
millions of the ghosts of SouthEast Asian Children and Women dancing
around their beds every night.)

September 16, 1974 - President Gerald R. Ford announces a clemency
program for draft evaders and military deserters. The program runs
through March 31, 1975, and requires fugitives to take an oath of
allegiance and also perform up to two years of community service. Out
of an estimated 124,000 men eligible, about 22,500 take advantage of
the offer.

(Doug Says: A shameful day for our country. Talk about stolen valor.
What about those men that went in the place of these draft dodgers and
deserters and never came home? You reckon Jerry Ford thought about
them??).

October - The Politburo in North Vietnam decides to launch an invasion
of South Vietnam in 1975.

November 19, 1974 - William Calley is freed after serving 3 1/2 years
under house arrest following his conviction for the murder of 22 My
Lai civilians.

December 13, 1974 - North Vietnam violates the Paris peace treaty and
tests President Ford's resolve by attacking Phuoc Long Province in
South Vietnam. President Ford responds with diplomatic protests but no
military force in compliance with the Congressional ban on all U.S.
military activity in Southeast Asia.

(Doug Says: Ford, as we are doing with Iran today, used "harsh
language" to halt the enemy's resolve - and look what it got him, and
us.)
December 18, 1974 - North Vietnam's leaders meet in Hanoi to form a
plan for final victory.
1975
January 8, 1975 - NVA general staff plan for the invasion of South
Vietnam by 20 divisions is approved by North Vietnam's Politburo. By
now, the Soviet-supplied North Vietnamese Army is the fifth largest in
the world. It anticipates a two year struggle for victory. But in
reality, South Vietnam's forces will collapse in only 55 days.

January 14, 1975 - Testifying before Congress, Secretary of Defense
James Schlesinger states that the U.S. is not living up to its earlier
promise to South Vietnam's President Thieu of "severe retaliatory
action" in the event North Vietnam violated the Paris peace treaty.

(Doug Says: No shit - you think????) And what did Congress do? More
harsh language same as we see about Iran today).

January 21, 1975 - During a press conference, President Ford states
the U.S. is unwilling to re-enter the war.

(Doug Says: Gosh, do you think our fearless leader's open statement
that we are not going to support South Vietnam had anything to do with
the morale of the ARVN, or the resolve of the Communists? Did Ford
consider all of the men that had already been wasted in that war?
Sure he did, sure. ..right. Politicians are concerned about getting
or keeping their party in power - GI's are clearly expendable - and
allies, well, do the words "cannon fodder" mean anything to anyone?)

February 5, 1975 - NVA military leader General Van Tien Dung secretly
crosses into South Vietnam to take command of the final offensive.
March 10, 1975 - The final offensive begins as 25,000 NVA attack Ban
Me Thuot located in the Central Highlands.
March 11, 1975 - Ban Me Thuot falls after half of the 4000 South
Vietnamese soldiers defending it surrender or desert.

(Doug Says: You mean only half of the ARVN ran away or surrendered???
That clearly was an ARVN victory, usually ALL of them run away or flip
sides. . .)
March 13, 1975 - President Thieu decides to abandon the Highlands
region and two northern provinces to the NVA. This results in a mass
exodus of civilians and soldiers, clogging roads and bringing general
chaos. NVA then shell the disorganized retreat which becomes known as
"the convoy of tears."

(Doug Says: Convoy of cowards when it comes to the ARVN - I thought
the ARVN oath included the promise to fight to the death? So much for
oaths when it comes to the ARVN officers. The men they led were
simply abandoned - the Draftee privates that made up most of the ARVN
could not be expected to fight when their officers have ran away).
March 18, 1975 - Realizing the South Vietnamese Army is nearing
collapse, NVA leaders meet and decide to accelerate their offensive to
achieve total victory before May 1.
March 19, 1975 - Quang Tri City falls to NVA.
March 24, 1975 - Tam Ky over-run by NVA.
March 25, 1975 - Hue falls without resistance after a three day siege.
South Vietnamese troops now break and run from other threatened areas.
Millions of refugees flee south.
March 26, 1975 - Chu Lai is evacuated.
March 28, 1975 - Da Nang is shelled as 35,000 NVA prepare to attack.
March 30, 1975 - Da Nang falls as 100,000 South Vietnamese soldiers
surrender after being abandoned by their commanding officers.
March 31, 1975 - NVA begin the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign,' the final push
toward Saigon.
April 9, 1975 - NVA close in on Xuan Loc, 38 miles from Saigon. 40,000
NVA attack the city and for the first time encounter stiff resistance
from South Vietnamese troops.
April 20, 1975 - U.S. Ambassador Graham Martin meets with President
Thieu and pressures him to resign given the gravity of the situation
and the unlikelihood that Thieu could ever negotiate with the
Communists.
April 21, 1975 - A bitter, tearful President Thieu resigns during a 90
minute rambling TV speech to the people of South Vietnam. Thieu reads
from the letter sent by Nixon in 1972 pledging "severe retaliatory
action" if South Vietnam was threatened. Thieu condemns the Paris
Peace Accords, Henry Kissinger and the U.S. "The United States has not
respected its promises. It is inhumane. It is untrustworthy. It is
irresponsible." He is then ushered into exile in Taiwan, aided by the
CIA.

(Doug Says: President Thieu said our Congress was "inhumane,
untrustworthy and irresponsible." Nothing much has changed has it
gang?)

April 22, 1975 - Xuan Loc falls to the NVA after a two week battle
with South Vietnam's 18th Army Division which inflicted over 5000 NVA
casualties and delayed the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign' for two weeks.
April 23, 1975 - 100,000 NVA soldiers advance on Saigon which is now
overflowing with refugees. On this same day, President Ford gives a
speech at Tulane University stating the conflict in Vietnam is "a war
that is finished as far as America is concerned."
April 27, 1975 - Saigon is encircled. 30,000 South Vietnamese soldiers
are inside the city but are leaderless. NVA fire rockets into downtown
civilian areas as the city erupts into chaos and widespread looting.

(Doug Says: Looting was organized by many ARVN officers, they
abandoned their men, stole as much as they could so they could get
out. Many of them made it to the USA and were provided sanctuary -
note the ranks of those that are in the USA - where are the ARVN
privates?)
April 28, 1975 - 'Neutralist' General Duong Van "Big" Minh becomes the
new president of South Vietnam and appeals for a cease-fire. His
appeal is ignored.
April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing
two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as
South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now
orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000
Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the
radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code
signal.
At Tan Son Nhut, frantic civilians begin swarming the helicopters. The
evacuation is then shifted to the walled-in American embassy, which is
secured by U.S. Marines in full combat gear. But the scene there also
deteriorates, as thousands of civilians attempt to get into the
compound.
Three U.S. aircraft carriers stand by off the coast of Vietnam to
handle incoming Americans and South Vietnamese refugees. Many South
Vietnamese pilots also land on the carriers, flying American-made
helicopters which are then pushed overboard to make room for more
arrivals. Filmed footage of the $250,000 choppers being tossed into
the sea becomes an enduring image of the war's end.
April 30, 1975 - At 8:35 a.m., the last Americans, ten Marines from
the embassy, depart Saigon, concluding the United States presence in
Vietnam. North Vietnamese troops pour into Saigon and encounter little
resistance. By 11 a.m., the red and blue Viet Cong flag flies from the
presidential palace. President Minh broadcasts a message of
unconditional surrender. The war is over."

Doug Says: The communists then systematically started to round up
and "make disappear" millions of south east Asians. It is considered
by many the Communists collectively murdered as many innocent people
as Adolph Hitler murdered in his concentration camps. But where are
the war crime trials?

What happened to the "bring the war criminals to justice" in regards
to the fall of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia? Where are the shouts of
"war criminals" "Butchers" "pure evil" and "mass murders" - such as we
heard after that little conflict in Bosnia? Why is the free world so
silent on perhaps the largest mass murder of innocent people since
Adolph Hitler?

Could it be too many press types and college types supported these
mass murderers and now they would rather just "pretend it did not
happen?"

Communist Vietnam today has NOT atoned nor paid for its past war
crimes. Before Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are allowed back in a
civilized world, we need to see some war crime trials.

My opinion of course.

Doug Grant (Tm)

[Ben]

On Jun 27, 7:14 pm, "DGVREIMAN" <dgvrei...@comcast.net> wrote:
> VIETNAM ARVN - SECTION TWO
>
> This is not a copyrighted article.  You may respond at
> alt.war.vietnam.
>
> I was asked to provide more evidence of my negative opinion of Vietnam's
> ARVN and the RVN leadership in general during the time of the Vietnam
> War.  This is part two of two parts.  This post gives us what happened
> in the latter stages of the war - how the ARVN performed during that
> period is key to this issue.  Note the American Congress failed to
> provide the funding they had promised RVN - which clearly establishes
> at least some culpability on the part of the American Congress when it
> comes to the failures of the ARVN. . . .
>
> Of course there were some exceptions to the overall rule the ARVN was
> a corrupt Army.  Some ARVN units excelled, and some ARVN soldiers were
> special - but regardless of some that demonstrated personal valor and
> efficiency, those few could not overcome the inept ARVN  monster that
> had been created by the failed RVN political system. . . as we see
> evidenced below.
>

The most corrupted ARVN officers are the old at the top. They joined
the French troops for money, not for the love of their nation.
Many such as Thieu and Minh are communist collaborators. Thieu used to
be a Viet Minh follower and the Viet Minh may have ordered him to join
the French army as a mole.
I heard that during the war, division commanders, provincial chief
paid Thieu and Khiem's wife money for the job. Only after they
failed that Thieu give the commander of I Corps to Gen. Truong, and
IV Corps to Gen. Nam, who are from the young generation and free from
corruption.
The US government leaders during the war were also corrupt. President
Kennedy was known to use Mafia mob in Chicago to cheat on votes and
won over Nixon. President Johnson also used government money and US
Corps of Engineers to build his ranch in Texas. Nixon and Agnew were
also corrupt. US DoD and Dept of State were also corrupted by
industry lobbyists. Instead of helping reinforcing defense posts of
troops in South Vietnam, they used the money to build Highway I from
Quang Tri to Camau, not really needed for South Vietnam's survival.
Instead of using all $700 million in aids in 1975 to buy spare parts
for airplanes, trucks, tanks, and artillery, DoD forced RVN to use
$300 million (42 percent of budget) to upgrade the F5A jets to F5E
with marginal benefits to ARVN.
While AK 47 rifles, B-40 RPGs, and military rations can be produced
dirt cheap in China, US defense industry lobbied not to license M16
rifles, M72, weapons, and ready to eat meals to be produced cheaply
in Thailand, Taiwan, S. Korea, or S. Vietnam. So an M16 rifles costs
10 times as much as an AK 47 rifle and the war cost 10 times for the
US in comparison with the cost for communist block.

> We also see that our Congress was also somewhat culpable in respect to
> ARVN failures. . .
>
> The ARVN failed.  There were many reasons why it did - but to claim it
> was an effective and honorable fighting force is beyond ridiculous, it
> is preposterous considering its performance.  But to its credit, there
> were outside forces that contributed to its failure, as we see below:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3e7yj   The History Place
>
> Excerpts from the above URL: (All excerpts are quotations).
>
> "August 1974- Richard M. Nixon resigns the presidency as result of
> Watergate. Gerald R. Ford is sworn in as the 38th U.S. President,
> becoming the 6th President coping with Vietnam.
>
> August 1974- The U.S. Congress appropriates only $700 million for
> South Vietnam. This leaves the South Vietnamese Army under-funded and
> results in a decline of military readiness and morale.

of the $700 million, $300 was paid to upgrade the F5A jets to F5E
model to make the defense industry and the congressman of the pork
district happy.

ARN had 15 divisions but Thieu refused to draft more men to fight. DRV
drafted all men and women of 16 or older, South Vietnam did not draft
men younger than 18. North Vietnam did not give deferment to any one.
All college and universities closed,. The son of DRV Premier Dong died
in combat. There are over 200,000 students at college and
universities in South Vietnam, they are draft evaders and many worked
for communists. After the losses at I and II Corps, Thieu did not
replenish soldiers to all units that suffered losses, leaving them
handicapped in defending the remaining South Vietnam. For example, by
April 1975, ARVN Marines division only had 6000 men, half of its
total, a brigade of rangers sent to defend Phan Rang only had 700 men
because Thieu did not replenish them.
In 1945, Germany drafted all children and women to defend Berlin.
South Vietnam did not do that to defend the rest of South Vietnam and
Saigon. A normal leader would draft all able bodies to defend
Saigon, but it did not happen. Why? Because both Thieu and Minh may
have taken order from communists to destroy ARVN.
ARVN could not fight effectively when communists controlled their
leaders, and they would be wise not to waste lives of their soldiers
for nothing.

> January 14, 1975 - Testifying before Congress, Secretary of Defense
> James Schlesinger states that the U.S. is not living up to its earlier
> promise to South Vietnam's President Thieu of "severe retaliatory
> action" in the event North Vietnam violated the Paris peace treaty.
>
> (Doug Says: No shit - you think????)  And what did Congress do?  More
> harsh language same as we see about Iran today).
>
> January 21, 1975 - During a press conference, President Ford states
> the U.S. is unwilling to re-enter the war.
>

The US overthrew South Vietnamese government in 1963 because Diem
wanted to end the war with Ho Chi Minh without the US. But then the US
was the one who wanted to end the war with the defeat of South
Vietnam. The ones who pushed South Vietnam to fight the war was the
one who ran first.
The common rule is if you broke it you buy it. The US broke South
Vietnam but did not buy.

Thieu wanted to be president of South Vietnam for his own wealth but
he is afraid to fight and die for South Vietnam. He was the fist to
abandon his troops and ran. In his life he never won any battles at
the level higher than battalion. He is a joke.

> April 22, 1975 - Xuan Loc falls to the NVA after a two week battle
> with South Vietnam's 18th Army Division which inflicted over 5000 NVA
> casualties and delayed the 'Ho Chi Minh Campaign' for two weeks.
> April 23, 1975 - 100,000 NVA soldiers advance on Saigon which is now
> overflowing with refugees. On this same day, President Ford gives a
> speech at Tulane University stating the conflict in Vietnam is "a war
> that is finished as far as America is concerned."
> April 27, 1975 - Saigon is encircled. 30,000 South Vietnamese soldiers
> are inside the city but are leaderless. NVA fire rockets into downtown
> civilian areas as the city erupts into chaos and widespread looting.
>
> (Doug Says: Looting was organized by many ARVN officers, they
> abandoned their men, stole as much as they could so they could get
> out.  Many of them made it to the USA and were provided sanctuary -
> note the ranks of those that are in the USA  - where are the ARVN
> privates?)

The indiscipline actions and atrocities of ARVN started at the coup of
1963 when ARVN murdered many captured prisoners with the approval of
US embassy. President Kennedy then rewarded the barbaric acts with
more aids and more US advisors. The US encouraged the undiscipline
actions among the ranks in ARVN since 1963. the genie was out of the
battle.
In March 1975, deserters and communist agents pretended to be ARVN ,
raped, looted, set fire to homes in Danang in order to stir up chaos
and hatred of ARVN. The scheme worked well because the people fed up
with ARVN barbaric disorderly conducts and cooperated with VCs to
disarm remaining 200,000 ARVN after Gen. Truong fled.

This is the failure of US veterans and Americans. While Americans
accused their own men with atrocities in My Lai, they are quiet and
became accomplices to communist atrocities. Many, including president
Carter administration, publicly denied atrocities exist in the Killing
fields and re-education camps. And with the approval of US and the
world, communists went ahead and killed 2 million Cambodians in the
killing fields and thousands in re-education camp. Anyway If teh US
approved ARVN murdered captured prisoners during the coup of 1963,
it would be difficult to protest when communists murdered their
prisoners. The US should have punished this practice in1963 by
withdrawal its aids to ARVN but it did not do that.

[Ben]

What actions did South Vietnamese think generals Big Minh and Thieu
may be the moles planted by communists inside ARVN? Here are some.

1. In 1963, Big Minh ordered the demolition of the strategic hamlets
which were successful in the war against communist insurgency in
Malaysia ten years before.
2. When US embassy wanted to start a WW II style attack of North
Vietnam staring with the bombing of the Red River dike system (Rostow
plan), Big Minh protested and thus the plan to destroy North Vietnam
like Germany and Japan was never implemented.
3. South Vietnam did not mobilize its nation to fight against
communists. Before the Tet offensive, the draft age in South Vietnam
was 19 while Americans got drafted at age 18 to fight for South
Vietnam. After the Tet offensive the draft age of DRV was 16 with no
deferments while South Vietnam's was 18 with a lot of deferments.
4. During the siege of KheSanh, NVAs cut off all supply roads from Cua
Viet to Khe Sanh. US had to supply and evacuate wounded soldiers by
air. Because of heavy NVA air defense, the supply and evacuation were
limited to helicopters. Because Gen. Westmoreland could not get more
troops from LBJ, Thieu could have sent a division of ARVN (1st Inf.,
Marines, or paratroopers) to clear the road from Cua Viet to Khe Sanh
and reduce pressure to the Marines but Thieu didn't care about the
allies. Eventually if you don't care for us, we don't care for you and
the US forces get out of Khe Sanh and Vietnam.
5. In the Lamson 719 operation, Westmoreland suggested RVN to add at
least one more division, 2nd Inf. Div., to support 20,000 ARVNs in
Laos facing with 60,000 NVA troops,
The destination of the Lamson 719 operation, Tchepone, was announced
two weeks in advance on radio by Saigon, so that NVAs can stage
ambushes and artillery targets of all possible firebase hills. Gen.
Giap still thought ARVN may invade North of DMZ so he only had 30,000
NVAs at Tchepone and 3 NVA divsions placed in the North side of DMZ.
After the first week, ARVN troops moved quickly to Laos, but then
Thieu ordered the troops to stop and wait. General Giap then have the
time to move the remaining 3 NVA divisions to Laos. As a results, NVAs
destroyed most units of ranger, paratroopers, and 1st Inf. division.
Gen. Lan of ARVN Marines was suspicious of Thieu, so he planned for an
organized retreat from Laos to protect all other ARVN units on the
run.
6. Thieu ordered the abandonment of 300,000 ARVN troops to communist
forces in MR I and MR II in 1975.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Ben]

The US did not put the generals who would fight to the last men to
power after the coup of 1963. All ARVN generals got some training in
US but the training should have told them that they should stay and
die with their soldiers after their troops got defeated. Only four
ARVN generals stayed behind with the troops and committed suicide
after their president ordered the surrender. Unfortunately, none of
the generals that US put them in power have enough courage and dignity
to do so. Thieu, Khiem and Ky fled, Big Minh ordered the surrender and
praised the enemy so that he could get some privilege and avoid
punishment. The kind of ARVN leaders that the the US used to run the
war are no better than an NVA platoon leader. The withdrawal from
Central Vietnam and the surrender insulted ARVN troops who remained
fighting to the last minutes. And their collaboration with communists
made the impression that, as Bill Oreilly said and Bush confirmed, the
South Vietnamese did not fight for their own freedom. With the
possibility of a bloodbath, the surrender is the worst decision made
by an American puppet. See
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,133712,00.html for the interview
with GW Bush.

On Jun 27, 7:14 pm, "DGVREIMAN" <dgvrei...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Three U.S. aircraft carriers stand by off ...
>
> read more »

[Bill Clarke]

In article <za-dnQRGIYhjPHbS...@giganews.com>, DGVREIMAN says...

>
>
>VIETNAM ARVN - SECTION TWO

Top post; I believe over 300,000 of them died fighting the communist. They
didn't run fast enough or what?

Bill Clarke

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

Bill Clarke wrote:
> In article <za-dnQRGIYhjPHbS...@giganews.com>, DGVREIMAN says...
>

> Top post; I believe over 300,000 of them died fighting the communist. They
> didn't run fast enough or what?
>
> Bill Clarke

Dear Sniveling Little Shit,

What point do you think you have made...ARVN was effective or ARVN not effective?
;-)

[Ben]

On Jul 6, 12:13 am, Bill Clarke <Bill_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <za-dnQRGIYhjPHbSnZ2dnUVZ5rydn...@giganews.com>, DGVREIMAN says...

>
>
>
> >VIETNAM ARVN - SECTION TWO
>
> Top post;  I believe over 300,000 of them died fighting the communist.  They
> didn't run fast enough or what?
>
> Bill Clarke
>

Since 1964, ARVN who were armed with single shot carbine M1 rifles had
to fight with NVA/VCs who were armed with AK-47 automatic rifles. In
1964, after an US helicopter was shot down at Binh Gia, 2 ARVN
Marines battalions were sent to rescue the crew. They were ambushed by
a regiment of NVA/VC. At that time they were given a few AR-15 to test
the weapons. They rescued the crew VC decimated the two battalions.
A few months later, an ARVN battalion of paratroopper was sent to Dong
Xoai to help a battalion of ARVN 5th Inf Division who were under
attack. They were ambushed by a regiment of NVA/VC armed with AK 47.
Again VC/NVAs decimated the entire battalion of paratrooper.
At that time US troops did not even got the M16 rifles, and the old AR
15s that US troops used jammed frequently. Even with the AR 15, AK 47
still had an advantage. The AK 47 amo clip can hold up to 30 rounds
while the M16 rifles can only hold 20. A 5 second needed to reload
the clip could cost the life of the soldier.
From 1964-1968, ARVN troops were forced to fight with VCs/NVAs using
their Carbine M1 rifles. Even the CIDGs were armed better than ARVN
with the carbine M2s. And ARVN suffered great casualties by having WW
II weapons. I don't think US troops could fight enemy with inferior
weapons for four years like ARVN. Even wih AR15 and M16, by 1969
American already wanted to give up the war while ARVN took over and
fought until 1975 when US Congress and the puppet generals wanted to
them give up the war. The brave men of the Vietnam war was actually
the ARVN. They actually took over the Hamburger Hill (Dong Ap Bia)
before American troops told them to get out and took over, ARVN seals
helped rescued Lt. Col. Hambleton (Bat 21 movie) but US troops took
all credits.
Only ARVN would be brave enough to use single shot M1 rifles against
the NVA/VCs with AK 47s from 1964 to 1968 without surrender. They only
surrendered in 1975 after their new commander in chief American
puppet gen. Big Minh ordered them to do so.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Ben]

Last night the Military Chanel about Navy Seals showed the story how
the rescue of Col. Hambleton actually happened. The movie Bat 21 is
far from the truth. After NVAs attacked the forward base killed and
wounded many soldiers in the rescue team, the remaining of the rescue
team, one US Navy seal officer and one ARVN seal petty officer who
disguised as Vietnamese fishermen and used a sampan to navigate
through the area occupied by 3,000 NVAs. Going through the area where
half dozen aircrafts were previously shot down was a very brave action
taken by US and ARVN navy seals.

>  Only ARVN would be brave enough to use single shot M1  rifles against
> the NVA/VCs with AK 47s from 1964 to 1968 without surrender. They only
> surrendered in 1975 after their new  commander in chief American
> puppet gen. Big Minh ordered them to do so.
>
>

According to Karnow and Snepp, the US paid Big Minh for dirty jobs in
many occasions,
The US asked Gen. Big Minh to overthrow Diem in 1963, asked him to run
against Thieu for president in 1972, and may have asked him to
surrender in 1975. When the US ran the show, nothing the ARVN could
do.
This is what the government of Iraq and Afghanistan have the fear that
the US may have arranged something against their troops in the future.
They don't want a bloodbath.

> ...
>
> read more »

[DGVREIMAN]

"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <dr...@jameford.edu> wrote in message
news:5vSdna7RQvPkEmrS...@supernews.com...

Doug Says: Many ARVN officers used their enlisted men as cannon
fodder. The regular ARVN grunt was not the problem, it was the
political apointee ARVN officers that were the problem. Consider the
officers took off their uniforms and abandoned their men when the NVA
invaded for the last time - of course they left their men to be
slaughtered - and many were.

Doug Grant (Tm)

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

still trying to figure out who to blame...the fate of a losing side

WHO GODDAMMIT!!!

;-)