"LIFE ...and how to survive it" - Robin Skinner & John Cleese
I
London:1993)
John: ... In fact you could claim that most values in the West are derived
from Christianity, and you don't find anything more inclusive than the words
of Jesus Christ. ...
Robin: ... people interpret each myth according to their level of mental
health....
John: So let me get this right: a less healthy person will take a healthy
idea and turn it into something less healthy?
Robin: Absolutely! And vice versa too. ... Each person will bring their own
family attitudes and feelings to their interpretation of myths about
loyalty. So if hey come from a very unhealthy family, they'll feel that the
group should all hold practically identical views, and that anyone who
questions these views is a 'trouble-maker' who is being 'disloyal'; they'll
feel hostility towards outside groups, and a disregard for the rights of
such 'outsiders'; and they'll feel intense and demanding dependence on all
the other members of the group. ...loyalty to unhealthy people is simply
paranoia dressed up and relabelled. p. 253 -255
John: So the healthy behaviour is to look at the thinking behind
regulations; the less healthy behaviour is to take a literal and inflexible
interpretation of the letter of the law. It sounds to me a general principle
of mental health, p. 261
John: Well, I'll attempt a rough summing-up so far. We've been looking at
the idea that each person interprets the world according to his or her level
of mental health. And it seems to me that the unhealthier we are, the more
literal minded we are in the interpretations of the letter of the law, as it
were; and the healthier we are, the more influenced we are by the broader
idea that lies behind the formulation of the myth that we are interpreting.
p. 266
John: ... we poor teenagers were hearing sermons every Sunday so
breathtakingly half-witted that the only valid response was reading,
sleeping, or invading the pulpit.... Any God, I felt, who would seriously
approve of what was going on in that church would be out of his
infinitemind. p. 268
John: So a religious idea will be interpreted by a person in a way that fits
in best with their existing psychology?
Robin: Yes, and it can therefore support them in functioning at the best
level they're capable of, given their limitations. ... Well, take people
functioning at the least healthy level first. They'll understand religion as
a collection of rules, of rewards and punishments, of threats andpromises,
all enfoced by a powerful and frightening God.
John: The extreme black-and-white thinking found in young children?
Robin: That's exactly what it is. The thinking of such people has got stuck
at that level, and though it's normal in a very young child, it's obviously
unhealthy in an adult. ...
John: And how is God experienced?Robin: He's seen as a terrifying,
domineering, bad-temprered dictator, who wants everyone to spend heir time
admiring him and telling him how marvellous he is. ... So naturally people
holding this view feel they have to do lots of things to keep Him sweet, so
that He won't get into a bad mood and blast them with thunderbolts, or
boils, or rivers of blood.
John: A little bit like the church congregation in "The Meaning of Life",
who, when invited to praise God, all chant 'Ooooh, you are so big', and
'Yo're so tough and strong, you could beat anyone up, even the Devil', and
'We're really impressed don here' before singing Hymn 42 'Oh Lord, please
don't burn us'. I can remember as a nione-year-old, thinking that God
couldn't be so stupid that he wouldn't se through such blatant buttering up.
p. 270 - 271
John: So the way I can explain our position now is to say this: there are
different ways of following Christ - which correspond to different levels of
mental health - and therefore it's quite legitimate to make fun of the less
healthy ways, not least because they actually conflict with His teaching!
The Inquistion was not an example of 'Blessed are the meek'. p. 275 - 276
Robin: ... I'll start at the bottom level again. As we said just now, for
the least healthy, religion is based on the kind of thinking typical of very
yopund children. And young children have difficulty distinguishing fantasy
from reality, wishes from deeds. So at this level, religion is valued as
magic - as a means of making wishes come true, without acknowledging
scientific laws and relationships of cause and effect.
John: You mean at this level we believe that we only have to repeat a prayer
of incantation, or perform some other prescribed routine, in order to make
the world do what we want.
Robin: Yes, and when you're thinking like this, whether or not youir wishes
come true seems to depend only on how strongly you believe in the procedure!
p. 277
Robin: ... to the extent that you face and accept your own psychology,
including all your weakneses and faults ... to THAT degree will you be able
to accept and love others. And conversely: to the extent that you love
others, to that degree you will be able to love yourself. p.282
John: Well, everything that you've been saying implies that
[Fundamentalism]is a manifestation of a fairly low level of mental health,
doesn't it? For a
start, Fundamentalists call for a literal interpretation of scripture, and
as we saw when we were discussing secular values, focusing in on the letter
of the law is a characteristic of the less healthy. In addition, wise people
tend not to exhibit literal mindedness, so it seems singularly inappropriate
to assume that this is the vein in which great spiritual teahers are
speaking. Then again, whether we're talking about Christianity, Islam,
Judaism or Hinduism, the values of Fundamentalists seem aimed at making
themselves feel better by placing all negative and destructive emotions in
people with different beliefs, and enjoying the golden glow of
self-justification that results. ... You know that simile: 'As rare as a
Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.' ... the Inquisition did largely miss
the point of 'Love Thy Neighbour', didn't they? Wasn't burning heretics
'worse' than being tolerant towards them? ... p. 287
John: In other words, the aim is integration?
Robin: Yes. It's even there in the language. The words 'whole', 'healthy'
and 'holy' all have the same root. They're all expressions of the same idea.
p.308
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gladys swager
> "LIFE ...and how to survive it" - Robin Skinner & John Cleese (Methuen;
> London:1993)
> John: ... In fact you could claim that most values in the West are derived
> from Christianity, and you don't find anything more inclusive than the words
> of Jesus Christ. ...
> Robin: ... people interpret each myth according to their level of mental
> health....
>
myths, fables
and legends
OR
whether you believe the Bible to be an account of certain
happenings in the eastern part of the Mediterranean area
during a period of about four thousand years with teachings derived
from them
some of which are still of utmost value in today's world. .
2. Mental health and Mental illness are medical constructs
of emotional and attitudinal symptoms and
certain professionals because of their Tertairy level training
believe they can assist in management or cure.
However, if the symptoms are from neurological impaiments
or bio-chemical imbalances in the blood to the brain are not
adequately
diagnosed counselling can be ineffective or not as effective
to bring about recovery.
Having said that ideas can be from one's indoctrinations
and many people can live and function well with ideas
that are contrary to others.
'All the world's a little queer, except you and me,
and even you are a little queer'.
> John: So let me get this right: a less healthy person will take a healthy
> idea and turn it into something less healthy?
>
The person using a less correct idea, may just need clarification,
not a Mental Illness categoration..
> Robin: Absolutely! And vice versa too. ... Each person will bring their own
> family attitudes and feelings to their interpretation of myths about
> loyalty. So if hey come from a very unhealthy family, they'll feel that the
> group should all hold practically identical views, and that anyone who
> questions these views is a 'trouble-maker' who is being 'disloyal'; they'll
> feel hostility towards outside groups, and a disregard for the rights of
> such 'outsiders'; and they'll feel intense and demanding dependence on all
> the other members of the group. ...loyalty to unhealthy people is simply
> paranoia dressed up and relabelled. p. 253 -255
>
And the decision to say what is healthy and unhealthy.
what is true and what is in error is made by whom?
If you say tertiary level professionals I am aware that they
do not always make the correct decisions. ,
> John: So the healthy behaviour is to look at the thinking behind
> regulations; the less healthy behaviour is to take a literal and inflexible
> interpretation of the letter of the law. It sounds to me a general principle
> of mental health, p. 261
>
There are some things that should be taken literally,
other things that should be taken metaphorically.
that is the basis of many arguments, when neither or one
is unconvinced of the need for a new look at the information in
debate.
> John: Well, I'll attempt a rough summing-up so far. We've been looking at
> the idea that each person interprets the world according to his or her level
> of mental health. And it seems to me that the unhealthier we are, the more
> literal minded we are in the interpretations of the letter of the law, as it
> were; and the healthier we are, the more influenced we are by the broader
> idea that lies behind the formulation of the myth that we are interpreting.
> p. 266
>
We interpret the world from the background of all the ideas
that we have accumulated through life and from resources
we can consult in the present.
> John: ... we poor teenagers were hearing sermons every Sunday so
> breathtakingly half-witted that the only valid response was reading,
> sleeping, or invading the pulpit.... Any God, I felt, who would seriously
> approve of what was going on in that church would be out of his
> infinite mind. p. 268
>
And what was the content of those 'half-witted sermonds'?
> John: So a religious idea will be interpreted by a person in a way that fits
> in best with their existing psychology?
> Robin: Yes, and it can therefore support them in functioning at the best
> level they're capable of, given their limitations. ... Well, take people
> functioning at the least healthy level first. They'll understand religion as
> a collection of rules, of rewards and punishments, of threats andpromises,
> all enfoced by a powerful and frightening God.
> John: The extreme black-and-white thinking found in young children?
>
How can children have any other than rudimentary knowledge of
the world they are in. Persons of older age may be neurologically
impaired to such a degree they can not evaluate beyond a much younger
age.
> Robin: That's exactly what it is. The thinking of such people has got stuck
> at that level, and though it's normal in a very young child, it's obviously
> unhealthy in an adult. ...
>
Unhealthy - keep the term to physical conditions.
'Unhealthy' in intellectual understandings
can be due to lack of knowledge/
experience. .
> John: And how is God experienced?Robin: He's seen as a terrifying,
> domineering, bad-temprered dictator, who wants everyone to spend heir time
> admiring him and telling him how marvellous he is. ... So naturally people
> holding this view feel they have to do lots of things to keep Him sweet, so
> that He won't get into a bad mood and blast them with thunderbolts, or
> boils, or rivers of blood.
>
I wonder how many see God in that way these days.
it may be that there are those who believe God does not exist.
How do they fit into these categories?.
> John: A little bit like the church congregation in "The Meaning of Life",
> who, when invited to praise God, all chant 'Ooooh, you are so big', and
> 'Yo're so tough and strong, you could beat anyone up, even the Devil', and
> 'We're really impressed down here' before singing Hymn 42 'Oh Lord, please
> don't burn us'. I can remember as a nine-year-old, thinking that God
> couldn't be so stupid that he wouldn't see through such blatant buttering up.
> p. 270 - 271
>
How many are claimed to do the above?.
> John: So the way I can explain our position now is to say this: there are
> different ways of following Christ - which correspond to different levels of
> mental health - and therefore it's quite legitimate to make fun of the less
> healthy ways, not least because they actually conflict with His teaching!
> The Inquistion was not an example of 'Blessed are the meek'. p. 275 - 276
> Robin: ... I'll start at the bottom level again. As we said just now, for
> the least healthy, religion is based on the kind of thinking typical of very
> young children. And young children have difficulty distinguishing fantasy
Finndamentalists can be looking for the basic concepts of their faith
and in that may be truer in their attitudes than the sophisticated
who want more complicated information.
> John: In other words, the aim is integration?
>
And what do you mean by 'integration?"
Is it that we believe all things from all faiths and hope that
somehow
we do concentrate on the best?
> Robin: Yes. It's even there in the language. The words 'whole', 'healthy'
> and 'holy' all have the same root. They're all expressions of the same idea.
> p.308
>
So what do you believe that gives you
the highest level of 'spiritual integration? And how do you know that
you are right?
Is there a possibility that you are a closet Fundamentalist
in respect of your own beliefs?.
Gladys Swager