Traduisez, s'il-vous plait...!
Spence...
Hope you don't mind me asking, but I'm anxious not to miss shades of
meaning. The original was probably written around 1893:
"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se pr�parer au
pr�alable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilit�s s�rieuses"
My best shot at an exact-as-possible translation is:
"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
immobilities"
Unfortunately, this seems rather obscure and eccentric...
Any thoughts...?
Ta!
Sp.
Loki Harfagr
> Can anyone hereabouts improve on my translation of something...?
>
> Hope you don't mind me asking, but I'm anxious not to miss shades of
> meaning. The original was probably written around 1893:
>
> "Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> My best shot at an exact-as-possible translation is:
>
> "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be
> advisable to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by
> serious immobilities"
>
> Unfortunately, this seems rather obscure and eccentric...
>
> Any thoughts...?
First, Satie was certainly an eccentric, and in "Vexations" he sort of
pulled the trigger to the sky. The play is twelve dozen notes of a
hard reading and yet harder memorizing, so Satie thought he had to
add that warning to the piece, his phrasing may have been tongue in
cheek as a lot of his works.
Then, in a way "Vexations" is a stakhanovistical mantra, hence the
necessity to prepare it by getting good at being slow (the piece
lasts about one full day to be played) being patient, being
relaxed and concentrated on one unique task (mostly read
permanently the bloody score and count the iterations).
Hope it helped :-)
Spence...
historically sensitive?) translation of some or all of it??
""Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se pr�parer au
pr�alable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilit�s s�rieuses"
Sp.
Loki Harfagr
> Perhaps somene would care to suggest an alternative (more idiomatic?
> more historically sensitive?) translation of some or all of it??
>
> ""Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer
> au préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités
> sérieuses"
To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to
earnestly prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the
thorough pratice of severe suspensions.
> Sp.
l0...
Loki Harfagr
besides, easily found on the Net is that translation that may
better satisfy your needs:
"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself,
it will be useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence,
by grave immobilities."
(found at:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Vexations#encyclopedia
)
Spence...
>
Thanks for these, Loki!!
So far, then, we have:
"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se pr�parer au
pr�alable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilit�s s�rieuses"
"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
immobilities"
"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
suspensions"
"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
immobilities"
-------
Is there anyone who wants to critique these and work towards an English
version that includes *all* the nuances of the original -- and adds none
that aren't there...?
Ta!
Sp.
[[Adding rec.music.classical and rec.music.classical.contemporary]]
Alan Smaill
> "Loki Harfagr" <l0...@thedarkdesign.free.fr.INVALID> wrote in message
> >
>
>
> Thanks for these, Loki!!
>
> So far, then, we have:
>
> "Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se prï¿œparer au
> prï¿œalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilitï¿œs sï¿œrieuses"
>
> "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> immobilities"
>
> "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> suspensions"
>
> "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> immobilities"
>
> -------
> Is there anyone who wants to critique these and work towards an English
> version that includes *all* the nuances of the original -- and adds none
> that aren't there...?
all fine, except the "grave/serious immobilities";
I'd go for "lengthy periods of stillness" -- something that speaks
more of meditation, anyway.
AS
> Ta!
>
> Sp.
>
> [[Adding rec.music.classical and rec.music.classical.contemporary]]
>
>
>
--
Alan Smaill
belinsky
> "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> writes:
>
> > Thanks for these, Loki!!
>
> > So far, then, we have:
>
> > préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > immobilities"
>
> > "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > suspensions"
>
> > "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > immobilities"
>
> > -------
> > Is there anyone who wants to critique these and work towards an English
> > version that includes *all* the nuances of the original -- and adds none
> > that aren't there...?
>
> all fine, except the "grave/serious immobilities";
> I'd go for "lengthy periods of stillness" -- something that speaks
> more of meditation, anyway.
>
> AS
>
> > Ta!
>
> > Sp.
>
> > [[Adding rec.music.classical and rec.music.classical.contemporary]]
>
> --
> Alan Smaill
I don't like the second one but the other two are OK. The problem is
the immobilités sérieuses. Lengthly periods of stillness doesn't quite
catch Satie's wacky sense of humour. The expression in the French
gives me the picture of sitting still with a serious expression on
one's face. Like a pianist frozen and immobile in a pose of about to
play something heavy and meaningful by Beethoven. Untranslatable.
ben
Alan Smaill
> On 14 July, 11:25, Alan Smaill <sma...@SPAMinf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> writes:
> > > "Loki Harfagr" <l...@thedarkdesign.free.fr.INVALID> wrote in message
> >
> > > Thanks for these, Loki!!
> >
> > > So far, then, we have:
> >
> > > "Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se prï¿œparer au
> > > prï¿œalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilitï¿œs sï¿œrieuses"
> >
> > > "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > > to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > > immobilities"
> >
> > > "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > > prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > > suspensions"
> >
> > > "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > > useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > > immobilities"
> >
> > > -------
> > > Is there anyone who wants to critique these and work towards an English
> > > version that includes *all* the nuances of the original -- and adds none
> > > that aren't there...?
> >
> > all fine, except the "grave/serious immobilities";
> > I'd go for "lengthy periods of stillness" -- something that speaks
> > more of meditation, anyway.
> >
> > AS
> >
> > > Ta!
> >
> > > Sp.
> >
> > > [[Adding rec.music.classical and rec.music.classical.contemporary]]
> >
> > --
> > Alan Smaill
>
> I don't like the second one but the other two are OK. The problem is
> the immobilitï¿œs sï¿œrieuses. Lengthly periods of stillness doesn't quite
> catch Satie's wacky sense of humour. The expression in the French
> gives me the picture of sitting still with a serious expression on
> one's face. Like a pianist frozen and immobile in a pose of about to
> play something heavy and meaningful by Beethoven. Untranslatable.
"periods of profound stillness" ?
> ben
--
Alan Smaill
equiton
> "Loki Harfagr" <l...@thedarkdesign.free.fr.INVALID> wrote in message
>
> Thanks for these, Loki!!
>
> So far, then, we have:
>
> préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness.
!
Andre Majorel
> "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> writes:
>> "Loki Harfagr" <l0...@thedarkdesign.free.fr.INVALID> wrote in message
>>
>>
>> "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
>> to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
>> immobilities"
>>
>> "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
>> prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
>> suspensions"
>>
>> "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
>> useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
>> immobilities"
>>
>> -------
>> Is there anyone who wants to critique these and work towards an English
>> version that includes *all* the nuances of the original -- and adds none
>> that aren't there...?
>
> all fine, except the "grave/serious immobilities";
> I'd go for "lengthy periods of stillness" -- something that speaks
> more of meditation, anyway.
There's always the temptation to make the translation idiomatic
but the original ("immobilit�s s�rieuses") isn't. At least it
isn't now, but I doubt it was at the time.
Also, the "se" in "pour se jouer" feels superfluous. Not sure
whether it's an archaism or a satie-ism.
--
Andr� Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
With great power come great heat sinks.
mark steven brooks
I assume this is in reference to Vexations?
Spence...
news:4a5dea69$0$
>
> I assume this is in reference to Vexations?
>
Yes!
I'm bothered by the uncertain quality of the translations I've seen in the
outside world...
Sp.
Spence...
news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2....@newsfe08.ams2...
So far, then, we have:
"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se pr�parer au
pr�alable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilit�s s�rieuses"
"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
immobilities"
"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
suspensions"
"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
immobilities"
"To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
and 'immobilit�s s�rieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
stillness' or something like that...
I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
far...? Anything....?
Sp.
Peter T. Daniels
> "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2....@newsfe08.ams2...
>
> So far, then, we have:
>
> préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> immobilities"
>
> "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> suspensions"
>
> "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> immobilities"
>
> "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> stillness' or something like that...
>
> I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
>
> Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> far...? Anything....?
>
> Sp.
That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
Are you planning to perform the work, such that you wish to assume the
appropriate attitude in front of your audience before beginning?
Alan Smaill
> On Jul 15, 3:26ï¿œpm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
> >
> > news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2....@newsfe08.ams2...
> >
> > ï¿œSo far, then, we have:
> >
> > ￜ"Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se prￜparer au
> > ï¿œprï¿œalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilitï¿œs sï¿œrieuses"
> >
> > ￜ"In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > ï¿œto prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > ï¿œimmobilities"
> >
> > ￜ"To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > ï¿œprepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > ï¿œsuspensions"
> >
> > ￜ"In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > ï¿œuseful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > ï¿œimmobilities"
> >
> > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
> >
> > and 'immobilitï¿œs sï¿œrieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
> > stillness' or something like that...
> >
> > I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
> >
> > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> > far...? Anything....?
> >
> > Sp.
>
> That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
On the contrary, it is deliberately, vexatiously, pedantically
just what is called for.
> Are you planning to perform the work, such that you wish to assume the
> appropriate attitude in front of your audience before beginning?
I sort of assumed that the preparation is for the sake of the performer,
not the audience.
btw, there is just a hint of Stockhausen's instructions for preparing
for one of his improvisatory pieces, which involves not eating for
several days etc, keeping in a still environment, etc etc.
Satie saw it all coming ...
--
Alan Smaill
Peter T. Daniels
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 15, 3:26 pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> > >news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2....@newsfe08.ams2...
>
>
> > > préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > > "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
>
> > > "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
>
> > > "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
>
> > > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> > > stillness' or something like that...
>
> > > I think we're getting somewhere, people!!
>
> > > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> > > far...? Anything....?
>
> > > Sp.
>
> > That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> > all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
>
> On the contrary, it is deliberately, vexatiously, pedantically
> just what is called for.
>
> > Are you planning to perform the work, such that you wish to assume the
> > appropriate attitude in front of your audience before beginning?
>
> I sort of assumed that the preparation is for the sake of the performer,
> not the audience.
>
> btw, there is just a hint of Stockhausen's instructions for preparing
> for one of his improvisatory pieces, which involves not eating for
> several days etc, keeping in a still environment, etc etc.
>
> Satie saw it all coming ...
Or maybe Stockhausen knew his Satie ... and his Cage ...
Joachim Pense
It took its time. He was more into Debussy, I think. And he had serious
problems with Cage.
Joachim
loki
I'm sorry that it seems I failed to, but it was clear to me that I
really
tried and inject the 'tongue in cheek' and 'venom' in the version I
gave, still as I also tried to keep it cryptic as the original
intention
I thought the author had I may have gone "too cloaked" ;-)
I would have replied sooner if the post wouldn't have a change of
groups
spread (and the fact most my newsfeeders blacklisted most of the new
thread!-D)
Peter T. Daniels
There is no earlier posting in this thread from "loki," and the
translations are not signed, so there is no way to know which one is
yours.
loki
> On Jul 25, 5:25 am, loki <l...@free.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 16 juil, 00:09, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Jul 15, 3:26 pm, "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > "Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > >news:3aM6m.5387$nQ2....@newsfe08.ams2...
>
> > > > So far, then, we have:
>
> > > > "Pour se jouer 840 fois de suite ce motif, il sera bon de se préparer au
> > > > préalable, et dans le plus grand silence, par des immobilités sérieuses"
>
> > > > "In order to play the theme 840 times in succession, it would be advisable
> > > > to prepare oneself beforehand, and in the deepest silence, by serious
> > > > immobilities"
>
> > > > "To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to earnestly
> > > > prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the thorough pratice of severe
> > > > suspensions"
>
> > > > "In order to play this motif 840 times consecutively to oneself, it will be
> > > > useful to prepare oneself beforehand, and in utter silence, by grave
> > > > immobilities"
>
> > > > "To play the motif 840 times in succession, it will be good to prepare
> > > > in advance, and in the greatest silence with serious motionlessness."
>
> > > > and 'immobilités sérieuses'might be 'grave stillness' or 'lengthy periods of
> > > > stillness' or something like that...
>
>
> > > > Now -- what might we all be *overlooking*?? What's not getting across so
> > > > far...? Anything....?
>
> > > > Sp.
>
> > > That Satie was being "vexatious," and a _literal_ translation, like
> > > all those above, is wildly inappropriate.
>
> > I'm sorry that it seems I failed to, but it was clear to me that I
> > really
> > tried and inject the 'tongue in cheek' and 'venom' in the version I
> > gave, still as I also tried to keep it cryptic as the original
> > intention
> > I thought the author had I may have gone "too cloaked" ;-)
>
> > I would have replied sooner if the post wouldn't have a change of
> > groups
> > spread (and the fact most my newsfeeders blacklisted most of the new
> > thread!-D)-
>
> There is no earlier posting in this thread from "loki," and the
> translations are not signed, so there is no way to know which one is
> yours.
That's right, I had to open a gmail account to be able to post here
and to read the full thread (I don't see my G posts on my standard
ISP account).
Anyway, that's not very important :D)
The post I refered to was the one including this proposal:
'To become capable to play this melody it would be sensible to
earnestly prepare oneself, in the direst silence, by the
thorough pratice of severe suspensions.'
And, don't mind, I understand why you think that was 'literal'
but there were real efforts to carry the original underlying
'venom' I thought Satie wanted to inject :-)
Cheers.
Peter T. Daniels
"Suspension" is a technical term in music theory, so it should be
avoided here. Also, in non-technical English, it doesn't carry the
sense of 'immobility'. Moreover, "immobility" really can't be used in
the plural in English, which may be the greatest problem in rendering
the passage. People can be in "states of immobility" from time to
time, but they can't be in "immobilities."
Of the translations we've seen here, the one that comes closest to
being an English rendering of the original is the first one quoted
above, except for the last two words, "serious immobilities," which
make no sense at all. As an experienced and published translator from
French, I have found that it is usually unwise to use the English
equivalent of a borrowed French word -- the nuances have almost always
diverged over the centuries since the word was first adopted into
English.
loki
Thanks Peter for your detailed answer, I mostly agree
with what you wrote, I'll just make a few precisions and
close the door ;-) And, do not imagine I'm trying and
make a point, that'll only be small precisions, not tempting
theories :-)
> "Suspension" is a technical term in music theory, so it should be
> avoided here.
Well, that exactly was the reason why I used it, the idea of
"suspended in time" as well as the 'rarity' of its use in this
way, that was supposed to give a major hint at what was Satie
'real' idea behind the doctoral paraphernalia.
Note that your advice here invalids most of the idea
that this version was 'too much literal'
("_literal_ translation, like all those above")
> Also, in non-technical English, it doesn't carry the
> sense of 'immobility'.
This is an important point you make here as I didn't imagine
that the translation would be aiming "non-technical" readers,
hence I missed to consider being crystal clear to every eye
(and I still think that'd be a 'gageure' to try it on such a text)
Besides, being french I'm certainly prone to big blunds on
terms when I try a wild run in the fr->en way, and I thank you
for the time you spend on that tiny thread
> Moreover, "immobility" really can't be used in
> the plural in English, which may be the greatest problem in rendering
> the passage. People can be in "states of immobility" from time to
> time, but they can't be in "immobilities."
Correct, (please note I did not use that term :^) and the same
'nono' is invalid as well in french language (I'd conceived
that was the 'hint' Satie gave to the readers and that was
another enticement for me to try and 'hijack' a
musical term ("suspension") which could bear the idea of
the meaning as well as bringing up the "Ah ah!" so Satie
was just very mad about his girlfriend and compared that
state of mind to being 'full of vacuum' (pardon the oxymoron)
'suspended in void' like 'croché sur une patère' (for which
I would dare to hijack a "semi-quivered on a peg" [not a typo] ;-)
> Of the translations we've seen here, the one that comes closest to
> being an English rendering of the original is the first one quoted
> above,
I do agree with you, though I thought it was too much a "literal"
version
then decided to try on something 'fresher' :D)
> except for the last two words, "serious immobilities," which
> make no sense at all. As an experienced and published translator from
> French, I have found that it is usually unwise to use the English
> equivalent of a borrowed French word -- the nuances have almost always
> diverged over the centuries since the word was first adopted into
> English.
And I do fully agree on that point too, we're all very tired to see
that many publishers by now can't see a difference between an
automatic translation engine and a real copy.
thank you Peter T. for the heads up.
Yvan Hall
Log on to Find out how you can make money by clicking my Web Site.
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"Spence..." <Spence...@garctec.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AEF6m.2132$aR6....@newsfe04.ams2...