ps- and pn- words in English and French
Adam Funk
The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
(at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
pronounced in French.
AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
/pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
sense.
But I'm curious about the pronounced P in French; I'm not aware of any
"natural" French words that start with /ps/ or /pn/ clusters. Were
these initial clusters introduced into French with the technical
terms, and why?
(On the other hand, there are some etymologically related words in
French, such as "poumon" --- related to the same Greek root as
"pneumatique" but altered naturally so it doesn't have the /pn/
cluster.)
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Pierre Hallet
> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn"
> is always (at least in every example I can think of)
> silent in English but pronounced in French [...]
> But I'm curious about the pronounced P in French;
> I'm not aware of any "natural" French words that
> start with /ps/ or /pn/ clusters. Were these initial
> clusters introduced into French with the technical
> terms, and why?
I know of no "natural" French word beginning with "ps",
however "pst" is an onomatopoeia to attract someone's
attention (AIUI, English also uses it but writes it
"psst"), and when I was a small child "ps ps" was another
onomatopoeia used by my parents to induce me to pee. ;-)
More seriously, my experience is that French speakers
tend to pronounce all initial consonants, even when the
combination is "unusual", while English speakers don't.
Other examples are words like "cnidaires" (cnidaria) or
"ct�nophores" (ctenephora) where the C is definitely
heard (as [k]) in French. Also, when a word begins with
an X, the French pronounce it audibly [ks] or [gz]:
"Xerox", for example, is something like "ksay-rocks".
Now I have no idea of the reason why... It's not just
a question of Romance vs. Germanic languages, e.g.
"knee" in Dutch is "knie" with an audible K.
Pierre Hallet
R H Draney
>
>The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>(at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>pronounced in French.
I don't know if I'm unusual in this respect, but I always pronounce the initial
P in "psittacine" and others derived from the same root....r
--
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Ray O'Hara
"R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:h6uu6...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Adam Funk filted:
>>
>>The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>>(at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>>pronounced in French.
>
> I don't know if I'm unusual in this respect, but I always pronounce the
> initial
> P in "psittacine" and others derived from the same root....r
>
Who knows if you're unusual but all sources agree its psilent. ;)
John Dean
> (Feel free to prune the follow-ups; I read all three groups.)
>
>
> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
> pronounced in French.
OED gives a pronounced 'p' for various of the 'ps' and 'pn' words.
Frinstance, for many of the 'pneu*' words the pronunciation of the 'p' is
given as a viable alternative to the 'n' pronunciation. And words like
'pnyx' and 'pnictide' are given with the 'p' sounded as the only way.
Similarly, various of the 'ps*' words can have the 'p' sounded.
As for 'ps', some of the 'psycho*' words have both pronunciations and words
like 'psyllium' only the 'p' sound.
>
> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
> sense.
In the entry for 'psalter' OED describes the 'initial ps-' as 'rare' in ME
and OE but it was evidently there, 'psalter' being a case in point, albeit
with the mute 'p' in pronunciation.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Christian Weisgerber
> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
> pronounced in French.
It is also pronounced in German, and German doesn't have any native
words starting with ps- or pn- (or pt- or mn-) either; they're all
loans from Greek.
> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
> sense.
I always thought the initial stop disappeared along with the one
in kn- and gn-.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
R H Draney
No wonder those damn parakeets were staring at me....r
António Marques
> (Feel free to prune the follow-ups; I read all three groups.)
>
>
> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
> pronounced in French.
>
> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
> sense.
I think the answer to your question is that it all depends. English
settled for not pronouncing most of those. Other languages with more
permissive phonetics may do it differently. I.e, this is not a matter of
english vs french.
> But I'm curious about the pronounced P in French; I'm not aware of any
> "natural" French words that start with /ps/ or /pn/ clusters. Were
> these initial clusters introduced into French with the technical
> terms, and why?
>
>
> (On the other hand, there are some etymologically related words in
> French, such as "poumon" --- related to the same Greek root as
> "pneumatique" but altered naturally so it doesn't have the /pn/
> cluster.)
It's not a learned word.
James Hogg
Besides which it derives from Latin "pulmo", not from Greek
"pneumon" (originally "pleumon").
--
James
Adam Funk
> I know of no "natural" French word beginning with "ps",
> however "pst" is an onomatopoeia to attract someone's
> attention (AIUI, English also uses it but writes it
> "psst"), and when I was a small child "ps ps" was another
> onomatopoeia used by my parents to induce me to pee. ;-)
"Psst" is the only English word I'm aware of that starts with /ps/,
and I think people often put a little schwa between them.
> More seriously, my experience is that French speakers
> tend to pronounce all initial consonants, even when the
> combination is "unusual", while English speakers don't.
> Other examples are words like "cnidaires" (cnidaria) or
> "cténophores" (ctenephora) where the C is definitely
> heard (as [k]) in French. Also, when a word begins with
> an X, the French pronounce it audibly [ks] or [gz]:
> "Xerox", for example, is something like "ksay-rocks".
Interesting, thanks.
> Now I have no idea of the reason why... It's not just
> a question of Romance vs. Germanic languages, e.g.
> "knee" in Dutch is "knie" with an audible K.
There are a lot of "kn-" words in German (and Dutch, I guess), with
silent K cognates in English (knee, knave, ...).
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Adam Funk
> "R H Draney" <dado...@spamcop.net> wrote: in message
>> I don't know if I'm unusual in this respect, but I always pronounce the
>> initial
>> P in "psittacine" and others derived from the same root....r
>>
>
> Who knows if you're unusual but all sources agree its psilent. ;)
John Cooper Clarke reads "psycle sluts" with a silent P.
--
Oh, I do most of my quality thinking on the old sandbox. [Bucky Katt]
Adam Funk
> Quoth António Marques <m....@sapo.pt>, and I quote:
>
>>Adam Funk wrote:
That's what I meant by "naturally", but...
> Besides which it derives from Latin "pulmo", not from Greek
> "pneumon" (originally "pleumon").
...oops!
--
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It makes no difference anyway;
Whatever it is, I'm against it! [Prof. Wagstaff]
Adam Funk
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>> pronounced in French.
>>
>> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
>> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
>> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
>> sense.
>
> I think the answer to your question is that it all depends. English
> settled for not pronouncing most of those. Other languages with more
> permissive phonetics may do it differently. I.e, this is not a matter of
> english vs french.
I agree. I framed the question in those terms because it occurred to
me that way, since English and French are the languages I'm most
familiar with. I'm interested in the general idea of more or less
permissive phonetics.
Is the situation in Portuguese roughly the same as in French?
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Adam Funk
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>> The initial P in words that start with "ps" and "pn" is always
>> (at least in every example I can think of) silent in English but
>> pronounced in French.
>
> It is also pronounced in German, and German doesn't have any native
> words starting with ps- or pn- (or pt- or mn-) either; they're all
> loans from Greek.
That's what I thought. Are the mn- words actually pronounced /mn/ in
German? (I can't recall ever hearing them.)
>> AIUI, all these words were artificially introduced into English as
>> technical terms from Greek and Latin, and since the clusters /ps/ and
>> /pn/ don't "naturally" begin English words, the silent P makes some
>> sense.
>
> I always thought the initial stop disappeared along with the one
> in kn- and gn-.
That's a different situation from my understanding of the ps- and pn-
words. The kn- words (Knie/knee, Knabe/knave, etc.) are native
Germanic ones; the initial /k/ was pronounced but has disappeared on
the way to modern English.
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Adam Funk
> OED gives a pronounced 'p' for various of the 'ps' and 'pn' words.
> Frinstance, for many of the 'pneu*' words the pronunciation of the 'p' is
> given as a viable alternative to the 'n' pronunciation. And words like
> 'pnyx' and 'pnictide' are given with the 'p' sounded as the only way.
> Similarly, various of the 'ps*' words can have the 'p' sounded.
> As for 'ps', some of the 'psycho*' words have both pronunciations and words
> like 'psyllium' only the 'p' sound.
I found that for psycho- but I couldn't find it for pneuma-.
> In the entry for 'psalter' OED describes the 'initial ps-' as 'rare' in ME
> and OE but it was evidently there, 'psalter' being a case in point, albeit
> with the mute 'p' in pronunciation.
Interesting.
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