off topic: new car advice for senior

[leza wang]

Sorry for off topic
-------------------

Hi

A friend of mine who is a senior citizen and want to buy a new car to replace her standard old car. She is very good driver with very clean driving history. Her current car is Volkswagen golf. She is thinking of buying a new Volkswagen golf but automatic of course (easier to drive). Do you have any other recommendation on which car (brand name) she should consider. Too many options and technologies are not really required, just basic stuff but most be automatic.

Thank you in advance.

[bob haller]

avoid any VW vehicle their resale value will probably take a big hit for a generation.

besides all auto makers need to watch vw go nearly out of business so they dont try to pull stuff like cheating on air pollution

[Oren]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:38:53 -0700 (PDT), leza wang
<leza...@gmail.com> wrote:

>A friend of mine who is a senior citizen and want to buy a new car to repla=
>ce her standard old car. She is very good driver with very clean driving hi=
>story. Her current car is Volkswagen golf. She is thinking of buying a new =
>Volkswagen golf but automatic of course (easier to drive). Do you have any =
>other recommendation on which car (brand name) she should consider. Too man=
>y options and technologies are not really required, just basic stuff but mo=

>st be automatic.
>
>Thank you in advance.

Being a senior citizen, maybe on a fixed income, my suggestion is to
not buy a new car. Buy a certified used car. My elder wife (older
than me just bought a 2007 in excellent condition) - more features
than she will use and she bought it under the blue book value from a
private seller for cash. A used certified car may also come with a
warranty beyond the original.

[Frank]

I'm a Subaru Forester fan.

Live on a hill and all Subaru's come with standard AWD.

Height is almost perfect for us seniors as it is easy to get in and out of.

As others point out, VW is in a heap of trouble and probably best avoided.

[Oren]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:29:45 -0400, Frank <"frank "@frank.net> wrote:

>As others point out, VW is in a heap of trouble and probably best avoided.

A recent report suggested VW owners may not be able to sell the car.
If they fit into the current mess of trouble. IDK

[THE COLONEL, Ph.D]

"leza wang" wrote in message
news:6c8019be-b93d-4ce1...@googlegroups.com...

Do you like BIG WANGS, LeZa?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:38:53 -0700 (PDT), leza wang
<leza...@gmail.com> wrote:

She needs to lookk first for something she can get into and out of
easily, and will be able to 5 years from now with anticipated
deterioration. It needs to be something she can see well out of as
well - no thick A-pillars blocking peripheral vision (means no front
side curtain air bags) It also needs to be something she can "wear"
comfortably.

A new Corolla would quite likely fit the bill. Some of the CUVs are
easier for old folks to get into and out of, and sitting higher, give
them better visibility as well. My step-mom LOVES her Matrix (no
longer available new). She just turned 80.

A good friend and longtime VW Golf/Jetta owner just switched to a
Corolla S (He's 80 too).

My sister-in-law and brother just traded their 2014 Fusion for a
Corolla S because she, being a bit on the short side, could not deal
with the blindspot behind the left A pillar - where you could quite
litterally park a transport truck from where she sat.

[Muggles]

I've been wanting to buy a VB Beetle, but not a new one. Are the older
models (by a few years) a bad idea, too?

--
Maggie

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per cl...@snyder.on.ca:

> She needs to lookk first for something she can get into and out of
>easily, and will be able to 5 years from now with anticipated
>deterioration. It needs to be something she can see well out of as
>well - no thick A-pillars blocking peripheral vision (means no front
>side curtain air bags) It also needs to be something she can "wear"
>comfortably.

Around here I see an unexpectedly large number of grey heads driving
Honda Elements.

My theory: even thought the Element was designed for young people, it
turned out to be an accidental ergonomic boon for older people.

I think they're either out of production or about to go out of
production, but I would have to consider one if I were getting another
vehicle.
--
Pete Cresswell

[Frank]

On 9/24/2015 12:48 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:38:53 -0700 (PDT), leza wang
> <leza...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry for off topic
>> -------------------
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> A friend of mine who is a senior citizen and want to buy a new car to replace her standard old car. She is very good driver with very clean driving history. Her current car is Volkswagen golf. She is thinking of buying a new Volkswagen golf but automatic of course (easier to drive). Do you have any other recommendation on which car (brand name) she should consider. Too many options and technologies are not really required, just basic stuff but most be automatic.
>>
>> Thank you in advance.
> She needs to lookk first for something she can get into and out of
> easily, and will be able to 5 years from now with anticipated
> deterioration. It needs to be something she can see well out of as
> well - no thick A-pillars blocking peripheral vision (means no front
> side curtain air bags) It also needs to be something she can "wear"
> comfortably.
>

Pointed out both wife and I have Subaru Foresters.
Her knees are shot - getting one knee replaced in several weeks.
She has a handicap plate but no trouble getting in and out of the Forester.

[Colonel Edmund Burke]

Someone once said that stick shifts make handy car dildos?
Anyone else herd this?

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 8:38 AM, leza wang wrote:
> Sorry for off topic -------------------

Ohmigosh! ;-)

> A friend of mine who is a senior citizen and want to buy a new car to
> replace her standard old car. She is very good driver with very clean
> driving history. Her current car is Volkswagen golf. She is thinking of
> buying a new Volkswagen golf but automatic of course (easier to drive). Do
> you have any other recommendation on which car (brand name) she should
> consider. Too many options and technologies are not really required, just
> basic stuff but most be automatic.

I would look at this differently. Instead of looking for a make/model,
identify her *needs* -- both now and in the foreseeable future.

SWMBO wanted a new vehicle (didn't *need* one). Her ORIGINAL short list
of required features (before she had seen anything in a dealership):
- up high (instead of "down low", surrounded by big trucks, etc.
This has a big impact on visibility.
- good visibility; not just being up high enough to see things but also
not having to bob-and-weave to see around various pillars in the
front and rear portion of the vehicle
- lift *onto* instead of *into*/outof rear storage area; easier to lift
something to a particular height and slide it into a wagon, SUV, etc.
than it is to lift it up *over* the lip of the trunk and set it down
*into* the well. (She does this almost daily with her hobby.)
- respectable gas mileage; she doesn't drive much but also isn't keen
on throwing money out the tailpipe!
- driver's seat that goes up and down (even if only manually); this
seems to be something women favor, another visibility issue?
- "substantial"; don't want a piece of tin that will get bounced across
the roadway whenever it is struck by another vehicle (e.g., SmartCar)
- reasonably small (despite other criteria suggesting big!); she
didn't want to drive a big truck, etc.
- easy to get in/out; not having to FALL into the car nor *climb* out of it
- low maintenance costs

After looking at what's available in 2015/16 (vs the last time she purchased
a vehicle), she decided to augment her list:
- power liftgate (because the *onto* storage requirement pushes you
towards a storage area that has a larger "door")
- blind spot monitors (to improve visibility of "road sheep")
- (rear) cross traffic alert (so she doesn't have to twist her neck
to look over her shoulder when backing out of parking spaces)
- rear camera (again, cut down on turning her head -- it seems that as
folks get older, this gets to be more of an issue)

The downside of many of these "requirements" is that you end up
dragging in all sorts of unnecessary prerequisites -- things that
the car manufacturer insists you have in order to get the features
that you *want*. :<

Good luck in your search. Don't rush it. Dealers will always be
pushing you to "buy today" -- tomorrow is usually just as good!

[Ed Pawlowski]

VW may be the best buy at the right price. Depending on the buyers age,
resale may be meaningless. If the car is never sold, who cares?

Good chance it can be had a a large discount just to move it.

[Ed Pawlowski]

My first consideration, what fits? What is easy enough to get in and
out of?

VW has problems right now but it may be possible to get a huge discount.
Don't know how that will shake out.

I'd consider:
Hyundai Sonata or the smaller Elantra
Toyota Camry or the smaller Corolla
Ford Fusion or the smaller Focus

Price can vary considerably depending if they get a stripped down
version or a fully loaded model. Right now, Hyundai is offering some
good deals on the 2015 Sonata as the 2016 is now hitting the showroom
floor.

There are no really bad cars made these days. Most are dependable and
have a decent warranty but Hyundai has the longest in both time and miles.

[sms]

On 9/24/2015 12:02 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/24/2015 11:38 AM, leza wang wrote:
>> Sorry for off topic
>> -------------------
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> A friend of mine who is a senior citizen and want to buy a new car to
>> replace her standard old car. She is very good driver with very clean
>> driving history. Her current car is Volkswagen golf. She is thinking
>> of buying a new Volkswagen golf but automatic of course (easier to
>> drive). Do you have any other recommendation on which car (brand name)
>> she should consider. Too many options and technologies are not really
>> required, just basic stuff but most be automatic.
>>
>> Thank you in advance.
>>
>
> My first consideration, what fits? What is easy enough to get in and
> out of?
>
> VW has problems right now but it may be possible to get a huge discount.
> Don't know how that will shake out.

Perhaps VW will bring back their 10 year power train warranty.

Just don't buy a manual transmission VW. Clutch replacement is
horrendously expensive due to everything that must be removed to get to it.

[philo]

Yep. Times have sure changed.

My dad's '55 Chevy lasted about 70,000 miles and was a rusted piece of
junk at that point. He got $50 for it.

About six years ago I purchased a good used car with 70,000 miles on it
& have had nothing done to it other than routine maintenance. When I
bought it many people thought it was brand new.

A friend of mine has 360,000 miles on his car...but yes...it's starting
to wear out now.

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 11:55 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> VW may be the best buy at the right price. Depending on the buyers age, resale
> may be meaningless. If the car is never sold, who cares?
>
> Good chance it can be had a a large discount just to move it.

OTOH, there's no guarantee that "fixed" you'll want to drive it!

A dealer here purchased a bunch of BLACK (interior and exterior -- we
live in Sunny AZ!), vinyl seats, manual tranny/windows/etc. sh*tboxes
with NO ACbrrr...

For a song.

And, couldn't get rid of them! No matter *how* he sang!

[sms]

On 9/24/2015 12:29 PM, philo wrote:

> Yep. Times have sure changed.
>
> My dad's '55 Chevy lasted about 70,000 miles and was a rusted piece of
> junk at that point. He got $50 for it.
>
> About six years ago I purchased a good used car with 70,000 miles on it
> & have had nothing done to it other than routine maintenance. When I
> bought it many people thought it was brand new.
>
> A friend of mine has 360,000 miles on his car...but yes...it's starting
> to wear out now.

The issue with used cars is that most new cars are so heavily discounted
off MSRP that a used car is sometimes no bargain, especially if it's
from a manufacturer that has high resale value (Toyota or Honda) which
inflates the price of used cars.

I recall when we bought one new Camry, it was $5000 under MSRP and $1500
under "invoice" due to various rebates and incentives. The equivalent
one and two year old cars were actually more expensive. And of course
the new car has the full manufacturer's warranty and higher resale value
since it's newer. Similar experience when my sister-in-law bought a 2013
Camry--way under invoice price.

So who is paying more for used cars than new cars? Naive buyers drive up
used car prices for Toyotas and Honda, while savvy buyers wait for the
optimal time to buy new cars.

Many new car buyers believe that getting a new car "at invoice" is
somehow a terrific deal when it's usually not. Factory to dealer
incentives and holdbacks mean that "invoice" is rather meaningless.
Determine the dealer cost as best you can and work up from that, not
down from the fake invoice price or the inflated MSRP.

Toyota's modus-operandi is to be to operate their factories at full
production and vary prices to sell all that production. This makes sense
since the incremental cost of each additional vehicle they produce is
pretty low. Better to make $5000 instead of $7000, rather than $0.

[21bla...@gmail.com]

if she likes her Golf, test drive a new one

can one Rent a new-ish car for a day/week - one that you're interested in?
[why buy Before you have it a few days, if you don't have to]

and the older we get, Visibility may be more and more important;
being able to see around you; mirrors etc;
and ease of getting in and out, as someone mentioned

my mother [85] got locked into a 3 year lease,
and a few weeks later decided she didn't like it!
[rent one if possible]

marc

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

It takes a large discount to get a VW into the price range of a lot
of it's competition. My friend bought his Corolla S, loaded to the
gills, for $8000 less than a base VW Golf TDI.
That surprized him as much as the fact that the Toyota was in just
about all ways, at least the match for the VW. The only thing he
missed was the torque of the Diesel.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:00:50 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

Like virtually all front drive cars today. And a few read drivers and
virtually all AWDs.

[Harry K]

As others have said, for seniors, ease of getting in and out is one of the top things. An overlooked option for that is the Ford Taurus. I sits higher than most cars, lower than an SUV. I am 80 and wife was disabled (died last year), both of use could get in/out of the Ford 500 (now Taurus again) without problems. Difference between 'crawling down into" (modern cars) and just turning and sitting down.

Harry K

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 2:07 PM, Harry K wrote:

> As others have said, for seniors, ease of getting in and out is one of the
> top things. An overlooked option for that is the Ford Taurus. I sits
> higher than most cars, lower than an SUV. I am 80 and wife was disabled
> (died last year), both of use could get in/out of the Ford 500 (now Taurus
> again) without problems. Difference between 'crawling down into" (modern
> cars) and just turning and sitting down.

Note that you can also end up with a car that is too *high*! You
don't want to have to climb *up* into a car -- nor risk *falling*
trying to get out of it!

Remember that your posture also changes as you age. You don't
stand as tall, etc. so what was comfortable at one age can
seem "a stretch" as you get older (and your back, hips, etc.
start to complain when you try to make full use of them).

I'm surprised at the number of folks who have problems carrying
even small (1 & 2 lb) weights (muscle atrophy). Reaching into
a back seat to retrieve an item can become challenging with age.
Another pair of doors is sometimes worthwhile!

If you "grunt" (even subvocally) when getting in or out of your
vehicle, reaching for some item (groceries), etc. then something
needs to change! :>

[21bla...@gmail.com]

...try to do a little exercise every day

and eat a well balance diet, with lots of vegetables

easy on the meat

marc

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 2:23 PM, 21bla...@gmail.com wrote:
> ....try to do a little exercise every day

It's surprisingly easy to get *enough* exercise to
"make a difference". The MD's will always clamor for
"more" -- regardless of how much you do. But, even
a little has a *big* impact on flexibility, attitude,
balance, strength, etc.

I've loaned "workout videos" to friends and, for those
who actually took the time to *try* them (instead of
setting them on top of the exercise equipment that they
DUST, regularly) have universally seen some improvements
in their "quality of life".

Stay active (physically and mentally) as long as possible
in order to be ABLE to stay active *for* as long as possible!

> and eat a well balance diet, with lots of vegetables

I "discovered" jicama upon moving to the southwest. It's
"weird", to say the least! But, I find myself *wanting*
it in an ever broader range of meals. It has a nice texture
and a pleasant taste that makes it a good companion for
many dishes. I'm not sure it does much (nutritionally)
for my system -- but is probably a good source of fiber
(and general variety!).

> easy on the meat

My downfall. :<

[Tony Hwang]

If she were my mother I'd buy a Subaru Impreza for her.

[Frank]

I have it on good authority that my Subaru dealer makes more money off
of selling used Subaru's than he does new ones.

I also get new at under invoice.

[Tony Hwang]

Meat has never been a main dish in my family. Meat is served as a treat.
We tend to eat more wild fish, organic poultry. Never eat white
bread. Never drink milk, never indulge in sweets, never drink ice cold
water, no salt shaker on the table. I just made a round between 5
specialists. They say I am in good shape. Annual routine for transplant
patients. Only change is, suggested to get a pair of glasses for
driving. Good eating needs good digestion. I eat well, sleep well,
eliminate well no issues with this basic 3 things.

[philo]

On 09/24/2015 03:20 PM, sms wrote:

> I recall when we bought one new Camry, it was $5000 under MSRP and $1500
> under "invoice" due to various rebates and incentives. The equivalent
> one and two year old cars were actually more expensive. And of course
> the new car has the full manufacturer's warranty and higher resale value
> since it's newer. Similar experience when my sister-in-law bought a 2013
> Camry--way under invoice price.
>
> So who is paying more for used cars than new cars? Naive buyers drive up
> used car prices for Toyotas and Honda, while savvy buyers wait for the
> optimal time to buy new cars.
>
> Many new car buyers believe that getting a new car "at invoice" is
> somehow a terrific deal when it's usually not. Factory to dealer
> incentives and holdbacks mean that "invoice" is rather meaningless.
> Determine the dealer cost as best you can and work up from that, not
> down from the fake invoice price or the inflated MSRP.
>
> Toyota's modus-operandi is to be to operate their factories at full
> production and vary prices to sell all that production. This makes sense
> since the incremental cost of each additional vehicle they produce is
> pretty low. Better to make $5000 instead of $7000, rather than $0.

Maybe I was spoiled because I never had to buy a decent car until a bit
before I retired. My company always provided me with a new car (or later
they went with vans).

Plenty of them had problems right from the start. In the 38 years I was
on the job though, the Pontiac Phoenix (2nd generation hatchback) was
so good I begged my boss not to get me a new car after the customary
three years. He shrugged and let me keep it two more years. Darn I
don't think anything went wrong with it ever.


All my personal cars that I had were more or less junkers but when I got
near my retirement I figured I better get something decent.

Since my wife and I do very little driving I figured a good used car
would be good enough. OTOH: If I did a lot of driving I'd for sure want
to start out with something new.

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 3:43 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

>>> easy on the meat
>>
>> My downfall. :<
>>
> Meat has never been a main dish in my family. Meat is served as a treat.

For us, meat was The Staple. Always a veggie and a starch as "sides".
But the main course was almost invariably meat. Chicken and fish
as "meat substitutes" -- and pasta once a week.

> We tend to eat more wild fish, organic poultry.

It was only later in life that I started eating salmon. Previously,
cod/schrod and shrimp. We currently eat too much chicken -- it's
boring (too hard to marinate).

> Never eat white bread. Never drink milk, never indulge in sweets, never

I drink about 6 gallons of milk yearly -- usually in 1 gallon "spurts".
I bake *lots* of sweets (I'll go through 50 pounds of flour in the
next couple of months) but don't eat them. Ice cream, OTOH, goes down
by the gallon (when I succumb to the temptation).

> drink ice cold water, no salt shaker on the table.

I gave up "added salt" 30 years ago. It is actually a worthwhile
experience that I would recommend to everyone -- even if only
on a temporary basis. It's only once you've given it up that you
realize how *much* salt is in the food you eat! A McDonald's
hamburger tastes the same as a potato chip (wrt salt).

> I just made a round between 5 specialists. They say I am in good shape.
> Annual routine for transplant patients. Only change is, suggested to get a
> pair of glasses for driving.

My eyes haven't changed in almost 40 years -- or so the eye doctors say.
But, I'm sure my next visit will see some changes in my close-in
vision. I've noticed that I can't easily read the small print on
many of the chips that I use when "up close".

> Good eating needs good digestion. I eat well,
> sleep well, eliminate well no issues with this basic 3 things.

Taking a sh*t has never been a problem! :> Sleep, OTOH, is something
I am perpetually warned to get more of. Too many interesting things
to do vs. spending time asleep! :-/

[Tony Hwang]

At my age 6 hrs good sleep is plenty. It is not how long you sleep,
how well(deep) you sleep(reset)

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 6:20 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
>> Taking a sh*t has never been a problem! :> Sleep, OTOH, is something
>> I am perpetually warned to get more of. Too many interesting things
>> to do vs. spending time asleep! :-/
>
> At my age 6 hrs good sleep is plenty. It is not how long you sleep,
> how well(deep) you sleep(reset)

Mine is highly irregular. I work for myself so I keep my own hours -- working
when I feel most productive, and, for as *long* as I continue to feel
productive. And, when I'm not working, there's nothing to prevent me from
taking a nap, going to sleep, etc. As a result, my bed-time varies
considerably. And, the time spent "sleeping" varies as well.

E.g., if I have a meeting at 9A and am just going to bed at 6A, then
I won't be getting more than 2 hours at that time. I may go back to bed
immediately after that meeting. Or, if something "interesting" comes
up, may end up awake for another 20 hours. Then, might "crash" for 12.
Or 4.

I rationalize this by thinking that my body will find a way to get
what it needs. My MD says this isn't really *good* for my body
even if it does "get what it needs" -- eventually.

<shrug> I tend to consider sleeping and eating as colossal wastes of time
(can't do anything "productive" concurrently with either of those).

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/24/2015 6:31 PM, Frank wrote:

> I have it on good authority that my Subaru dealer makes more money off
> of selling used Subaru's than he does new ones.
>
> I also get new at under invoice.

I've heard that from a couple of local dealers. They like selling used.

Last used car I bought was in the 1980's. I never found them to be a
good value with the miles I dreive.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I've owned one new vehicle in my life.
Generally I buy 5 or 6 year old vehicles for around $5000 - generally
with around 100,000km on them.

Current vehicles are 2 older cream puffs. Bought the 02 Taurus 3 years
ago with 58000km for $6500. A bit older and more money than usual, but
with very low miles and excellent shape. Have not spent a cent on
repairs except for front brakes in 40,000km.
I bought the 1996 Ranger at about the same time with 307,000km on it.
Paid $1500 plus $900 for a new clutch and release bearing. Looks like
brand new and runs and drives the same.. I had to put front brakes and
U joints in it in the last 30,000km. I also put on bigger wheels and
A/C, but that was my choice - not a required repair. While I was at
it, I put a big brake kit on it (11 inch front rotors) It's my "toy"
as well as my daily driver work truck.

[Tony Hwang]

Likewise, I drag about eating and sleeping. In overseas days I worked
12 hour shift without week ends. Longest hour I was working on a problem
was 72 hours drinking nothing but coffee. Any way I finished what I was
doing(trouble-shooting downed mainframe with magnetic core memory
problem) Thinking back that was not good thing for own health. Getting
old, my priority in life changed. I learnt to slow down and take things
easy. But I still complete daily planned schedule and then some
more.Doing support work for field engineers I was quite independent, no
one hardly ever bothered me. That was good. I hope I'll be around when
g-son goes to college. He just started grade 1. 75+18=93 maybe, maybe not.

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 11:47 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
>> <shrug> I tend to consider sleeping and eating as colossal wastes of time
>> (can't do anything "productive" concurrently with either of those).
>
> Likewise, I drag about eating and sleeping. In overseas days I worked
> 12 hour shift without week ends. Longest hour I was working on a problem
> was 72 hours drinking nothing but coffee. Any way I finished what I was
> doing(trouble-shooting downed mainframe with magnetic core memory problem)

One of my earliest jobs was doing field service work. Being away from
home was a real drag -- nothing to do, no one to talk to, etc. So,
I would typically go from airport straight to customer site, work
until machine was operational (which clients liked because that typically
meant most of my time there was after hours -- not under their feet and
they got back up and running with minimal impact on *their* work schedule!).
Then, check in at hotel/motel, take a shower, change clothes and head back
to airport.

Employer recognized we weren't working 8 hour shifts. Getting the job done
in a day or two saved on meals, lodging, etc. So, you'd spend a day on
the road... and take the rest of the week off with pay. Not sure who
got the better end of that deal! :>

> Thinking back that was not good thing for own health. Getting old, my priority
> in life changed. I learnt to slow down and take things easy.

I have become even more obsessed with getting things done. Counting on
"tomorrow" is likely to be a disappointment. I've seen too many people
plan on doing what they *want*, "later" -- then discovering that they
can't (physical/mental/health problems -- or early death!). So, I
roll the dice and *hope*!

Enjoy today as tomorrow may not come.

> But I still complete daily planned schedule and then some more.Doing
> support work for field engineers I was quite independent, no one hardly ever
> bothered me. That was good. I hope I'll be around when
> g-son goes to college. He just started grade 1. 75+18=93 maybe, maybe not.

I'm not as worried about dying as I am about not being able to work
towards my goals due to infirmities, disabilities, etc. "Being dead"
sort of sidesteps that whole issue :-/

[Consumer]

If you are able to make all your own car repairs, buying a used car might be the most economical solution.

But, if you depend on auto repair shops, a used car can be more expensive over time.
Have a break-down 500 miles from home and you'll see what I mean.

Me, I buy new plain-Jain cars, keep them until the mfg warranty runs out, then buy another new one.

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 6:56 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/24/2015 6:31 PM, Frank wrote:
>
>> I have it on good authority that my Subaru dealer makes more money off
>> of selling used Subaru's than he does new ones.
>>
>> I also get new at under invoice.
>
> I've heard that from a couple of local dealers. They like selling used.

The big win for the dealer on "new" is that they are more likely
to CONTINUE to encounter those customers in their service departments!

> Last used car I bought was in the 1980's. I never found them to be a good
> value with the miles I dreive.

My attitude wrt used has always been: I've *got* a used car. I know
exactly how it has been driven, maintained, likely expectations of
future reliability and costs, etc. Why should I swap this for some
OTHER car whose background is a complete mystery?

When we replaced our 13 yo vehicle, recently, we had several friends
willing to buy the old one from us. But, avoided that option: no
desire to have them "revisiting the well" some time down the road
when <something> went wrong and they magically felt *we* should
be responsible for it...

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/25/2015 3:09 AM, Don Y wrote:

> I have become even more obsessed with getting things done. Counting on
> "tomorrow" is likely to be a disappointment. I've seen too many people
> plan on doing what they *want*, "later" -- then discovering that they
> can't (physical/mental/health problems -- or early death!). So, I
> roll the dice and *hope*!
>
> Enjoy today as tomorrow may not come.
>

Good philosophy. I'm still working but only 4 days a week. I took SS
when I turned 66 and I'm enjoying the extra money. Traveled, remodeled
two bathrooms, go out to dinner at nice restaurants, anything that
sounds good at the time.

Snowing? OK, I'm not going to work. Friday? I'm leaving early. I'm
at work right now and I'll be gone in 45 minutes.

My wife has some health restrictions now but we do what we can and will
as long as we can.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/25/2015 7:40 AM, Consumer wrote:

>
> Me, I buy new plain-Jain cars, keep them until the mfg warranty runs
> out, then buy another new one.

I do that but I like all the goodies. I have the Limited with every
option.

[Don Y]

On 9/24/2015 9:48 AM, Muggles wrote:

>> As others point out, VW is in a heap of trouble and probably best avoided.
>
> I've been wanting to buy a VB Beetle, but not a new one. Are the older
> models (by a few years) a bad idea, too?

"older models (by a few years)" is still a "new" (redesigned, not "classic")
beetle, right?

The cars named in the recent disclosure are sure to take a hit -- in the
short term and possibly even longer. A lot will depend on the sort of
fix that VW puts forward and how it affects the perceived value of those
vehicles. My hunch is that any *cheap* fix (e.g., a software upgrade)
will result in a vehicle's performance falling below what their owners
(and prospective resale owners) would be happy with.

[If this is NOT the case, then why would VW have shot itself in the
foot so forcefully? Their actions suggest that strict compliance with
the letter of the law would have affected fuel efficiency or overall
performance in a way that would have caused potential buyers to "look
elsewhere"]

How much spillover to other models NOT named is up for debate. Note
BMW already took some heat over *suspicion* that they might be
similarly cheating (no evidence to suggest this!).

People who are fearful by nature will probably lump all VW products
into that category; perhaps even all diesel offerings there *and*
from other vendors.

If your question concerns your potential *exposure* if you opt to
purchase a used bug, I'd not be too concerned. OTOH, if you were
wondering how this would affect the purchase price of said bug,
it will depend on how much fear-mongering the media heaps on
others "competing" for that used vehicle that *you* want.

Craigslist reports that prices for used VW's are already down ~20%.
VW is expected to have a drop in sales for the month of Sept
while most other automakers are posting *record* sales figures.
How long that persists is anybody's guess...

[Don Y]

On 9/25/2015 7:31 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/25/2015 3:09 AM, Don Y wrote:
>
>> I have become even more obsessed with getting things done. Counting on
>> "tomorrow" is likely to be a disappointment. I've seen too many people
>> plan on doing what they *want*, "later" -- then discovering that they
>> can't (physical/mental/health problems -- or early death!). So, I
>> roll the dice and *hope*!
>>
>> Enjoy today as tomorrow may not come.
>
> Good philosophy. I'm still working but only 4 days a week. I took SS when I
> turned 66 and I'm enjoying the extra money.

"Formal" retirement is still a long way for me. But, most of my friends
jokingly comment that I've been retired for decades -- in that I work on
(only!) what I *want* to work on and (only!) *when* I want to work on it!

Unfortunately (?), as I get older, there are even *more* things that I
want to "take on", learn, etc. But, the body and mind aren't as spry as
they used to be. Many of the technologies that I'm working with are
still barely "out of the lab" -- yet I'm trying to use them as if they
were "mature". Calls for lots of new learning (the technologies, the
tools, etc. -- in addition to the unconventional ways that I am trying
to "apply" them).

I'd hate, for example, to try to learn a new (speaking) language at
this point in my life! (I'd also not consider it a "good investment"...
what's the payback??)

> Traveled, remodeled two bathrooms,
> go out to dinner at nice restaurants, anything that sounds good at the time.

We tend to be pretty frugal -- though not "tight as a frog's *ss". We
tend to make decisions based on reasoned arguments instead of "feel/desire".
So, tend to be happier with our decisions in the long run (I think much
of "buyer's remorse" comes from folks who fell into the trap of being
motivated by emotions in a decision; later, the emotions fade and your
subconscious starts looking at the RATIONAL basis of the decision -- and
finds it "wanting"! :> )

I'm not a fan of restaurants; most tend not to serve the things I'd
want to eat nor prepare them in the ways that I'd want. And, *all*
require far too much time for something as banal as "a meal" (some
folks live to eat; others -- me -- eat to live).

I did a lot of traveling when I was young. So, most *domestic*
traveling is "ho hum, been there, done that". International
travel requires too much time. The only things I would like to
see "up close" (i.e., not "on a DVD" :> ) would be the pyramids
and Great Wall. But, I'd want to *climb* the pyramids and *walk*
the (length of the) Great Wall. Both are obviously not going to
be permitted.

> Snowing? OK, I'm not going to work. Friday? I'm leaving early. I'm at work
> right now and I'll be gone in 45 minutes.

I actually was unhappy about leaving "snow" behind (currently southwest).
While not a morning person, I used to delight in waking up on days when
snow was predicted and stare out the front picture window watching everyone
struggle with the snow (cars, pedestrians, etc.). Then, as soon as the
morning rush was over, I'd go back to bed: "I'll plow the driveway
later -- at a more *sensible* time to get out of bed!"

OTOH, working for myself means there *is* no Friday. (the consolation
is that there is no Monday, either! :> ) And, being highly interested
in what I'm doing, it's far too easy to work non-stop when I get
obsessed with a particular aspect of a problem.

SWMBO is a valuable diversion -- all the HoneyDo's! E.g., I spent a couple
of hours last night framing two of her paintings instead of spending
all that time doing research. Today I'll fix a friend's genset -- another
"distraction".

> My wife has some health restrictions now but we do what we can and will as long
> as we can.

That's my fear -- what sort of "things" will life throw my way that conflict
with my goals? There's very little you can do (for many things) to steer
future events (health related) in a particular direction, if your body and
history predispose you to a different outcome.

I see too many people "using" ailments to limit their activities, goals, etc.
Granted, for some (and to some extent) these may be genuine limitations.
OTOH, I think others just "cop-out" because they are quitters or want an
excuse to NOT do what's required to rise above their limitations.

[It's scary to listen to "old folks" -- all they (most) talk about is their
ailments, doctor appointments, etc. "Wow, why do you get out of bed in
the morning if your life is THAT boring or challenging??"]

Hopefully, you'll be able to find ways to *keep* doing what you (both) enjoy;
finding ways to work *around* your wife's current (and your *future*?)
health issues. Silly to work "all those years" and not be able to have
something to enjoy as a "reward"!

[Muggles]

With the prices of new Beetles, I can't really afford one right now, but
if the prices of used (automatic - not diesel) Beetles come down I may
easily be able to afford one of those.

Is the problem being discussed with VW only with diesels? I haven't
read every post on the subject and could have missed that detail.

--
Maggie

[Uncle Monster]

The book,"Unsafe at Any Speed" killed the Chevrolet Corvair and even when GM redesigned the rear suspension, as I read in a car magazine, so it was more advance than that on the Corvette, it was too late and sales declined until the car was discontinued. It's a very interesting story about GM upper level management ignoring the safety concerns of suspension engineers. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Car Monster

[sms]

On 9/24/2015 3:31 PM, Frank wrote:

<snip>

> I have it on good authority that my Subaru dealer makes more money off
> of selling used Subaru's than he does new ones.

Subaru and Lexus had the highest resale values across the entire line
for 2015.

Used cars have been more profitable for many dealers than new cars for a
long time. Not just because naive buyers drive up the cost of used cars
but because the dealer is more likely to be able to sell an extended
warranty.

For 2014, four of the the top ten vehicles for resale value were
Toyotas, with the #1 model retaining 70% of its value after five years.
And that's 70% of MSRP, not 70% of the street price. Toyota's typically
sell for 10-20% under MSRP, so the percentages are actually much higher.

Toyota keeps saying that they want to stop the big promotions that lead
to such a big disparity between MSRP and ASP (average selling price) but
they never seem to be able to have the will to achieve it because it
would mean reducing production. It's like oil producing companies saying
that they need to cut production to keep prices higher, they don't do it
because they don't want to lose market share and because even at $40 per
barrel oil is enormously profitable once you've paid for all the
infrastructure.

I also think that keeping high MSRPs is partly political. If they
reduced the MSRP and reduced promotions then they would come under
attack by the government (even though they make a large percentage of
their vehicles in the U.S.).

> I also get new at under invoice.

Does anyone pay over invoice?

One relative bought a Camry when there were three separate incentives
going at the same time. $2000 factory to buyer, $1000 for current Toyota
owners, and $500 for cash instead of 0% financing. And that was in
addition to the discounted price from the dealer through USAA (generally
better than the Costco discounts).

[Don Y]

On 9/25/2015 8:59 AM, sms wrote:

> I also think that keeping high MSRPs is partly political. If they reduced the
> MSRP and reduced promotions then they would come under attack by the government
> (even though they make a large percentage of their vehicles in the U.S.).

There is also a *perception* issue with buyers! Most people can't place
a "value" on *anything*. So, count on SOMEONE to do that for them.
They then look at everything RELATIVE to this initial price point
(there's a wealth of information on this! fascinating reading!!).

So, if you tell them <something> is worth $X, they are more likely to pay
CLOSE TO $X for that item -- than if you had told them it is worth $Y
(Y<X).

And, folks tend to *think* an $X product is *better* than a $Y product.
They simply don't have the skills to be able to decide (independant of
that initial setting of the price point) the actual value of *either*
product!

A firm that I worked at sold a $30,000 device -- in very small quantities
(dozens annually). The cost to build (DM+DL) was very close to that
figure! Perhaps $5,000 in "profit"?

I came up with a more modern design that cut the cost to *$500*. I pitched
my design stating: "We can sell it for $10,000 -- make *twice* the profit
that we are currently making, probably sell twice as many (customers
could AFFORD to buy a SPARE to have on hand -- and still have spent
LESS than that original $30,000) -- which means we'd make *four*
times the profit we are currently making!"

Yet, management and sales were scared that customers would see this as
"cheaper" (lower quality) than the existing, more expensive, less profitable
product. We had "set" the price point in the customers' minds and
expended considerable effort JUSTIFYING it over the years. How could we
suddenly say, "here's a smaller, less expensive way of solving the EXACT SAME
PROBLEM" after having convinced them that they *needed* to spend $30,000
for the solution?

[Frank]

I have to admit that I have not bought a new car in years.

My brother worked for car dealers all his life and is now retired but
had funny stories like the guy that priced a vehicle on the internet and
insisted that they sell to him at his price. Brother said OK but told
me he would have sold it cheaper if the guy had bargained with him.

Did see a friend go through this recently with a new GM vehicle and
there were several discounts like this and it seemed like a good deal
but I think he may have been screwed on the trade in where he got
practically nothing.

Probably a good idea to sell your used vehicle yourself and separate the
deals from used cars and financing.

[Don Y]

On 9/25/2015 8:04 AM, Muggles wrote:
> With the prices of new Beetles, I can't really afford one right now, but
> if the prices of used (automatic - not diesel) Beetles come down I may
> easily be able to afford one of those.
>
> Is the problem being discussed with VW only with diesels? I haven't
> read every post on the subject and could have missed that detail.

Only diesels (currently -- and probably that's as far as it will
go *at* VW). You'll have to see how "stupid" people are in sorting
out that distinction, going forward.

As a single data point (with all that implies!), note that we had a
neighbor with a "new bug" some years back. It was always in the
shop (though I have no idea what the problems were -- these folks
don't do any of their own maintenance... so, it could have been
"replacing windshield wiper blades"!). They traded it out pretty
early...

Why the attraction to a bug? (I can see a *classic* just for
nostalgia -- surely not SAFETY! :> ) Are you looking for
small? Fuel efficient? Cute? etc.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:40:11 -0400, Consumer <cons...@consumed.com>
wrote:

What repairs? I had more "repairs" to my one-and-only new car in the
first 6 months than on my last 2 used cars over 3 years - and they
were both 10 years old or older when purchased.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:05:48 -0700, Don Y
<blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 9/24/2015 6:56 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 9/24/2015 6:31 PM, Frank wrote:
>>
>>> I have it on good authority that my Subaru dealer makes more money off
>>> of selling used Subaru's than he does new ones.
>>>
>>> I also get new at under invoice.
>>
>> I've heard that from a couple of local dealers. They like selling used.
>
>The big win for the dealer on "new" is that they are more likely
>to CONTINUE to encounter those customers in their service departments!

No, the big win for the new car dealer is the profit they will make on
the trade-in. Generally speaking at least twice the profit they make
on the new car.

>
>> Last used car I bought was in the 1980's. I never found them to be a good
>> value with the miles I dreive.
>
>My attitude wrt used has always been: I've *got* a used car. I know
>exactly how it has been driven, maintained, likely expectations of
>future reliability and costs, etc. Why should I swap this for some
>OTHER car whose background is a complete mystery?

I only get rid of "my" used cars when I KNOW they are going to start
getting expensive, or they are no longer meeting my requirements (I
sold my PT Cruiser to buy a pickup truck because the back of the
cruiser was ALWAYS full of stuff and I virtually never used the back
seat).

>
>When we replaced our 13 yo vehicle, recently, we had several friends
>willing to buy the old one from us. But, avoided that option: no
>desire to have them "revisiting the well" some time down the road
>when <something> went wrong and they magically felt *we* should
>be responsible for it...

Neighbor arond the corner had been "jonesing" for a PT for a while
and jumped on mine as soon as I put it up for sale. 3 years and no
complaints from the neighbour.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

And I buy 'em when you are finished.
One car I bought sold new for 38,000. I bought it 6 years old for
$5000 and sold it 12 yars later for $1700. Total mechanical repairs up
to 240,000km was less than $3000, and about halt that was "normal wear
and tear" items. For an 18 year old car it was in pretty good
condition - but not as good as my current 20 year old pickup. (The
truck is a Ford - the car was a Chrysler)

[Don Y]

On 9/25/2015 9:50 AM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:05:48 -0700, Don Y
> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2015 6:56 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 9/24/2015 6:31 PM, Frank wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have it on good authority that my Subaru dealer makes more money off
>>>> of selling used Subaru's than he does new ones.
>>>>
>>>> I also get new at under invoice.
>>>
>>> I've heard that from a couple of local dealers. They like selling used.
>>
>> The big win for the dealer on "new" is that they are more likely
>> to CONTINUE to encounter those customers in their service departments!
>
> No, the big win for the new car dealer is the profit they will make on
> the trade-in. Generally speaking at least twice the profit they make
> on the new car.

There's no guarantee that there *will* be a trade-in. Or, that the trade in
will have any appreciable resale value. (car before last was traded in
needing some significant repairs; a dealer would have had to invest a
fair bit to get it roadworthy, etc.)

[Don Y]

Yup. Trade and other "financing" issues should be negotiated separately
from the sale price. Dealer has too much "wiggle room" when you lump all
the into the same transaction.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The book "unsafe at any speed" did NOT kill the Corvair. It actually
prolonged it's life. What killed the Corvair was the Camaro. It was a
LOT cheaper to build, and could command a higher price, so more
profit. GM hung on with the corvair untill 1969 - 2 or 3 years after
bringing out the Camaro -

Unsafe at any speed was published in 1965, after the "problem" with
the corvair had already been solved in production.. (1964 was the last
year of "first generation" Corvairs with the same rear suspension
geometry as the VW and Porsche of the same time period.) The 1965 to
69 Corvairs shared the same rear suspension geometry as the Corvette.

[Uncle Monster]

Sales for the Corvair fell even after the suspension problem was addressed. I think they're pretty neat little cars but it's been generally accepted that Ralph Nader was instrumental in the demise of the little car. ^_^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair#Legal_fallout

[8~{} Uncle Unsafe Monster

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:58:58 -0700, Don Y

"on the average" new cars get traded every 3-5 years. "On the
average" the trade-ins are in pretty good shape. This fom my 25 years
experience in the "business" - 10 of them as dealer service manager.

Also, "on the average" the dealer "steals" the trade-in.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The easiest $800 my dad ever made was when he went to deal the
Chrysler wagon on the REbel wagon. They were going to give him $200 on
the trade. Dad said "no dice - I'll keep the Chrysler" then went on to
negotiate the best price on the Rebel. After signing the deal and
putting down his deposit, he said "Now who wants to buy my Chrysler".
The dealer principal walked in, looked at it, and asked Dad for the
keys. Dad threw him the keys and said "don't let it get away from
you".

There was a cloud of tire smoke and 2 strips of rubber 8 1/2 inches
wide down the street from the old 413. The dealer principal came back
and offered Dad $1000 on the spot. Of course, he took it!!!

[Oren]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 15:53:39 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>Also, "on the average" the dealer "steals" the trade-in.

Correct. Never offer a trade-in. Friend of my wife walked away,
keeping her car and sold it to my wife for cash. Still below blue
book, but better than the dealer offered.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The sales of the Corvair dropped significantly just after September
1966, when the new Camaro came out. It was less expensive and was
available with the VERY healthy 302 Z28 option - which took a lot of
sales from the Turbocharged Monza..

[sms]

On 9/25/2015 9:50 AM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:05:48 -0700, Don Y
> <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2015 6:56 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 9/24/2015 6:31 PM, Frank wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have it on good authority that my Subaru dealer makes more money off
>>>> of selling used Subaru's than he does new ones.
>>>>
>>>> I also get new at under invoice.
>>>
>>> I've heard that from a couple of local dealers. They like selling used.
>>
>> The big win for the dealer on "new" is that they are more likely
>> to CONTINUE to encounter those customers in their service departments!
>
> No, the big win for the new car dealer is the profit they will make on
> the trade-in. Generally speaking at least twice the profit they make
> on the new car.

Do people still trade in their old cars? Here they sell them on
craigslist or on one of those lots where you pay a fee to put the car there.

I found it amusing that the Toyota dealer is pushing a third year of
prepaid service on new cars that already come with two years. The thing
is that the only real service that is needed during that time is an oil
change every 10,000 miles. They kept repeating, "it uses synthetic oil
which is expensive."

[rbowman]

On 09/25/2015 08:23 AM, Don Y wrote:
> The cars named in the recent disclosure are sure to take a hit -- in the
> short term and possibly even longer. A lot will depend on the sort of
> fix that VW puts forward and how it affects the perceived value of those
> vehicles. My hunch is that any *cheap* fix (e.g., a software upgrade)
> will result in a vehicle's performance falling below what their owners
> (and prospective resale owners) would be happy with.

My impression is the problem is with the diesels, with about 450,000 in
the US. I can't find a breakdown but I don't think they've sold that
many New Beetles so I assume the bulk of the TDIs are in Jettas followed
by Golfs.

Europe is where it will get ugly.

[rbowman]

On 09/25/2015 09:04 AM, Muggles wrote:
> With the prices of new Beetles, I can't really afford one right now, but
> if the prices of used (automatic - not diesel) Beetles come down I may
> easily be able to afford one of those.
>
> Is the problem being discussed with VW only with diesels? I haven't
> read every post on the subject and could have missed that detail.

Yes, it's the TDI diesel. The market is unpredictable but I don't see
why that would impact the gas engine models, which are the majority in
the US market.

All the manufacturers game the system, VW was just a little sneakier.
Despite all the whining at least VW didn't kill anybody, unlike
Government Motors ignition switches or the lowest bidder exploding airbags.

[Don Y]

Yup. The fallout here will be "by association"... folks ignorant of
details and just seizing on the words "VW" and "cheating".

You also have a lot more voices and axes to grind in Europe. Lots
of "officials"/politicians to answer to -- and folks who want to
make political hay of this sort of thing.

If I was running the show, I'd go out of my way to *quickly* clean house
and uncover and disclose EVERYTHING that MIGHT be pertinent. I'd even
publish the source code so third parties could examin it to identify
the extent of the "problem" as well as being able to "rebuild it"
(i.e., take a blank ECU and install software that is, theoretically,
identical to the software described in the source code listings to
PROVE that the source code tells the entire story).

Yeah, this is considered trade secret material. But, your pants are
down around your ankles, time to suck it up and take your medicine!
(other car manufacturers undoubtedly have the essence of any of
the *legitimate* algorithms already sorted out... you're not really
giving away much other than your pride -- which you already
lost when you committed/admitted the offense!) Get it over and
done with. Don't give anyone the opportunity to claim you should
have been *more* open ("Hey, we gave you the source code, what more
do you want??")

[rbowman]

On 09/25/2015 02:34 PM, sms wrote:
> Do people still trade in their old cars? Here they sell them on
> craigslist or on one of those lots where you pay a fee to put the car
> there.

I loathe selling stuff so if I don't trade a car in it usually becomes a
'free to a good home' deal. I tend to buy new cars and drive them until
they die so the question hasn't come up too often. The F150 I bought in
'86 is still in the driveway.

[Uncle Monster]

I always thought the Corvair was a neat little car but I've never driven one and don't recall if I've even been a passenger in one. I find it hard to believe that a Camaro Z28 would cut into sales of a base Corvair. Everything I've ever seen or read seems to blame Ralph Nader's book for sullying the reputation of the Corvair but other sources I just read blame the Ford Mustang and GM's response to it by coming up with the Camaro. GM stopped promoting the Corvair which already had slow sales because of the bad reputation it had garnered and GM let it quietly die. So the Camaro did have a lot to do with the demise of the little rear engined car. From what I read, another problem was that the Corvair didn't share many parts with other GM cars. This made it more expensive to produce. The Camaro on the other hand could be easily modified with all kinds of parts from other GM vehicles. I wonder what would have happened if GM hadn't abandoned the little car? We'll never know. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Car Monster

[rbowman]

On 09/25/2015 09:39 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
> I always thought the Corvair was a neat little car but I've never driven one and don't recall if I've even been a passenger in one.

My brother had a rental, '60 or '61. At that time it was an utilitarian
economy car, Chevy's answer to the Falcon or Valiant. It had the
powerslide transmission and iirc the shifter was a vertical slide on the
dash sort of like a heater control. It was interesting for its
innovations but I preferred the styling on the Valiant or Falcon as did
the public.

It took a couple of years before it morphed into the sporty Monza
package with a turbo from its plain jane econobox roots. But by then
Ford had morphed the Falcon into the Mustang and Nader had done his
damage. Chevy even shot themselves in the foot with the Chevy II.
Conventional, not bad looking, and you could stuff some very interesting
mills under the hood.

You do have to wonder what would have happened if Chevy had went
straight to the poor man's 356 version instead of an economy car. They
could have also done their homework a little better and realized Beetles
had a bad habit of turning turtle. I wonder why Nader gave them a pass?

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Not only did the corvair not share "many" parts, the power train
parts were quite expensive to build. The engine block, heads, and cyls
were all very different in manufacturing concept to ANY other north
American engine and were much more expensive to manufacture than even
a high output V8

The transaxle was totally unique as well.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 22:26:02 -0600, rbowman <bow...@erewhon.com>
wrote:

The Monza Turbo came out in 1962 and was the first mass produced
turbocharged engine in North America (along with the Oldsmobile
JetFire 215 cu inch aluminum V6)
>

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/25/2015 11:39 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:


>
> I always thought the Corvair was a neat little car but I've never driven one and don't recall if I've even been a passenger in one. I find it hard to believe that a Camaro Z28 would cut into sales of a base Corvair. Everything I've ever seen or read seems to blame Ralph Nader's book for sullying the reputation of the Corvair but other sources I just read blame the Ford Mustang and GM's response to it by coming up with the Camaro. GM stopped promoting the Corvair which already had slow sales because of the bad reputation it had garnered and GM let it quietly die. So the Camaro did have a lot to do with the demise of the little rear engined car. From what I read, another problem was that the Corvair didn't share many parts with other GM cars. This made it more expensive to produce. The Camaro on the other hand could be easily modified with all kinds of parts from other GM vehicles. I wonder what would have happened if GM hadn't abandoned the little car? We'll never know. ^_^
>
> [8~{} Uncle Car Monster
>

I had a '62 Corvair Monza. Even had an AM/FM radio. It was a good car
in most respects, great in snow, comfortable in the front bucket seats.
Had a few quirk, but it was fun to drive and handled well.

I also survived with only a head cut being broadsided by a
tractor=trailer. Car did not survive though.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

VW was simply doing what many people who support what they fondly
imagine to be "the free enterprise system" and who oppose government
regulation say corporations are obligated to do: make as much money for
their shareholders as possible.

Perce

[Stormin Mormon]

On 9/26/2015 12:06 PM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
> VW was simply doing what many people who support what they fondly
> imagine to be "the free enterprise system" and who oppose government
> regulation say corporations are obligated to do: make as much money for
> their shareholders as possible.
>
> Perce

I'd much rather have the free enterprise system
selling me what I want (fuel mileage and performance)
rather than government telling me what to do.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

[Tony Hwang]

Tourag and Passat have TDI models.

[Tekkie®]

leza wang posted for all of us...


>
> Sorry for off topic
> -------------------
>
> Hi
>
> A friend of mine who is a senior citizen and want to buy a new car to replace her standard old car. She is very good driver with very clean driving history. Her current car is Volkswagen golf. She is thinking of buying a new Volkswagen golf but automatic of course (easier to drive). Do you have any other recommendation on which car (brand name) she should consider. Too many options and technologies are not really required, just basic stuff but most
be automatic.
>
> Thank you in advance.

Please take the time to go with her to visit the dealers. Have her get in &
out of EVERY one of them through the different model lines. Observe what
works for her, narrow the list then go for test drive.
It will take much time but will be worth it. At least to shield her from the
salespersons baloney. Make a point to the salesperson that you will NOT be
deciding or purchasing today. I prefer foreign makes. Toyota, Honda, Subaru,
Nissan. Ford is the only US car I have had that was dependable. How close is
the dealer, loaners, pickup/delivery for service? I am afraid you will have
to do a lot of research for past thoughts and remember anything posted here
is just someones opinion-including mine. I'm sorry not to give a magical
answer but I just went through this myself. You might save money getting a
2015 model as it's end of model year. Good luck.

--
Tekkie

[Muggles]

On 9/25/2015 11:18 AM, Don Y wrote:

> On 9/25/2015 8:04 AM, Muggles wrote:
>> With the prices of new Beetles, I can't really afford one right now, but
>> if the prices of used (automatic - not diesel) Beetles come down I may
>> easily be able to afford one of those.
>>
>> Is the problem being discussed with VW only with diesels? I haven't
>> read every post on the subject and could have missed that detail.
>

> Only diesels (currently -- and probably that's as far as it will
> go *at* VW). You'll have to see how "stupid" people are in sorting
> out that distinction, going forward.

That was my first question.

> As a single data point (with all that implies!), note that we had a
> neighbor with a "new bug" some years back. It was always in the
> shop (though I have no idea what the problems were -- these folks
> don't do any of their own maintenance... so, it could have been
> "replacing windshield wiper blades"!). They traded it out pretty
> early...
>
> Why the attraction to a bug? (I can see a *classic* just for
> nostalgia -- surely not SAFETY! :> ) Are you looking for
> small? Fuel efficient? Cute? etc.

I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still driving
a mini-van.

--
Maggie

[rbowman]

On 09/25/2015 10:48 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> The Monza Turbo came out in 1962 and was the first mass produced
> turbocharged engine in North America (along with the Oldsmobile
> JetFire 215 cu inch aluminum V6)

And meanwhile the Falcon was eating their lunch. It was a great idea but
they missed their market trying to sell it as an economy car. By the
time they got around to impressing the crew at Sports Cars Illustrated
the ship had sailed. Or was it Car and Driver by then?

[rbowman]

On 09/26/2015 01:26 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
> Tourag and Passat have TDI models.

I don't have the numbers handy but I believe those are also a minor
slice of VWs American market.

[rbowman]

On 09/26/2015 03:34 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
> I am afraid you will have
> to do a lot of research for past thoughts and remember anything posted here
> is just someones opinion-including mine. I'm sorry not to give a magical
> answer but I just went through this myself. You might save money getting a
> 2015 model as it's end of model year. Good luck.

There certainly isn't a magical answer. My mother traded a full sized
Dodge for a Gold Duster. It was a nice ride but it had me puzzled since
she had always insisted the family bucket had four doors. Her rationale
was if she bought something with four doors she would be the duty driver
every time her old girlfriends wanted to go someplace but none of the
old biddies were up to climbing in and out of the backseat of the Duster.

[rbowman]

On 09/26/2015 09:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
> I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
> in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still driving
> a mini-van.

You just like the little flower vase. Admit it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/automobiles/autoreviews/to-be-cute-as-a-bug-isnt-enough-anymore.html

No offense, but after VW discovered they'd built a chick car, they tried
to reinvent it.

Its like the Miata. The Miata is really a competent car but it got the
reputation of being a chick or gay ride and never overcame it.

[Muggles]

On 9/26/2015 10:58 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 09/26/2015 09:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
>> I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
>> in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still driving
>> a mini-van.
>
> You just like the little flower vase. Admit it.

A flower vase? Where? I love flowers! :)

> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/automobiles/autoreviews/to-be-cute-as-a-bug-isnt-enough-anymore.html
>
>
> No offense, but after VW discovered they'd built a chick car, they tried
> to reinvent it.
>
> Its like the Miata. The Miata is really a competent car but it got the
> reputation of being a chick or gay ride and never overcame it.

What can I say, I'm a chick. (◕‿◕)

--
Maggie

[Don Y]

On 9/26/2015 8:47 PM, rbowman wrote:

> There certainly isn't a magical answer. My mother traded a full sized Dodge for
> a Gold Duster. It was a nice ride but it had me puzzled since she had always
> insisted the family bucket had four doors. Her rationale was if she bought
> something with four doors she would be the duty driver every time her old
> girlfriends wanted to go someplace but none of the old biddies were up to
> climbing in and out of the backseat of the Duster.

We did a similar calculus with our recent purchase. SWMBO originally
liked a larger vehicle. But, it didn't take long to realize her friends
would be cheerfully suggesting *she* drive to most of the places that
they frequent, weekly.

Ignoring the cost of fuel, wear and tear on the vehicle, etc. she had
no desire to be worrying about *their* timetables as if a chauffeur:
"I have a doctor's appointment at 12:15 so we'll have to leave early?"
"Why don't we all go out for lunch?"
"Can you pick me up a AFTER Mary next week (instead of BEFORE)? I
have some errands to run in the early morning..."
"Why don't we listen to WXXX today?"
Plus, the obligation imposes requirments on her (SWMBO) attendance!
She can't just decide at the last minute to "stay home"!

[Don Y]

On 9/26/2015 8:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
>> Why the attraction to a bug? (I can see a *classic* just for
>> nostalgia -- surely not SAFETY! :> ) Are you looking for
>> small? Fuel efficient? Cute? etc.
>
> I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
> in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still driving
> a mini-van.

<frown> Do you have money to burn? I.e., do you care about the reliability
and safety of the vehicle that hauls you around town?

Find something that is affordable and comfortable. If you want to be
"cute", put a big red bow on the front grill. Or, "eyelashes" above
the headlights. Or, a *tail* curving up over the back of the car
from the rear bumper.

(seriously -- I have seen all of the above)

It will make your car more memorable (to you and others), won't cost
you much, won't alter the value, reliability or safety of the ride,
etc. A photo of a local vendor who is known for their crazy cars:
<http://everydaychildhood.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/trulynolen3.jpg>
Look carefully at the front end details...

[rbowman]

On 09/26/2015 10:03 PM, Muggles wrote:
> A flower vase? Where? I love flowers!:)

You never saw those in the New Beetle? Not the new Beetle; they dropped
the flowers in 2012. Little bud vase on the dashboard, sort of like a
hearse. Sometimes the German mind goes off the rails. I mean what sort
of manly man is going to drive a car with a damn sprig of pansies?

[Tony Hwang]

How come, don't want to fiddle with your car? You can reproprogram ECU
for example. You modify any part of the car to your heart's content.
Today's cars are more electronics than mechanics. Like Volvo has more
than 20 microprocessors controlling the car one way or the other.
Engine, transmission, suspension, brakes, drive train, collision
avoidance system.... You name it.

[Tony Hwang]

Are you a motor vehicle operator or driver? Miata has grown little
bigger now.

[Tony Hwang]

Some VW cars resemble Audi counter part.
Tourag is pretty nice SUV, built sturdy. Neighbor has one with V8 and
I'd rather drive this one than big Lincoln Navigator. Eventually
we'll end up with one car when one of us loses driver's license. I am
sure that'll be me. Wife does not care what brand or what type car as
long as it's seat fits her and it is AWD no matter what. Everyone in my
family drives AWD vehicles. Jeep, Subaru, Acura. On top of that we have
to fit snow/ice tires in winter, she insists. Tire change over is my
job having air tools and good compressor but some 18" tires are getting
heavier by the year. I just passed medical to extend the license for 5
more years. After that medical every year. Went to niece's wedding who
is marrying E. Indian. Had Hindu ceremony which was interesting. She is
a PhD in forensic science working at RCMP crime lab. Boy is Nuclear
safety engineer with MBA, interesting couple. Family gained one more
engineer, Way too many engineers and MD in the family, not a lawyer yet.

[Uncle Monster]

I test drove a 340 Duster back in the early 1970's. OMG it was quick. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Fast Monster

[Jack]

You can tell a lot by the vehicle someone drives.
There's a guy at work, he's about 4'-2" and drives a new Dodge Ram 3500. I think he's a cross-dresser.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2015 21:39:53 -0600, rbowman <bow...@erewhon.com>
wrote:

Siesel VWs were 40% of North American sales in a recent month, from
what I read somewhere recently.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 00:55:02 -0600, rbowman <bow...@erewhon.com>
wrote:

You mean the shot glass?

[Ralph Mowery]

"Uncle Monster" <uncl...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:fcd0e8d1-> There

certainly isn't a magical answer. My mother traded a full sized
> Dodge for a Gold Duster. It was a nice ride but it had me puzzled since
> she had always insisted the family bucket had four doors. Her rationale
> was if she bought something with four doors she would be the duty driver
> every time her old girlfriends wanted to go someplace but none of the
> old biddies were up to climbing in and out of the backseat of the Duster.

>>I test drove a 340 Duster back in the early 1970's. OMG it was quick. ^_^

If it was in 70's it was not all that quick.. I had a 69 Dart Swinger 340
and it was very quick. Someone ran a stop sign and total lost it. I
ordered a 72 with the same engine. When I drove it home I opened the hood
as I thought they had put in a 6 cylinder instead of the V8. Found out due
to the emissions and such they had lowered the compression from about 10.5
down to less than 9. The horsepower went way down,. Boy was I sick. Damn
thing turned out to be a lemon and always needed something and I traded it
off after less that 20,000 miles. A friend bought one about a week after ai
did off the lot from the same dealer. He had lots of problems with his
also.

[Muggles]

On 9/27/2015 12:14 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/26/2015 8:01 PM, Muggles wrote:
>>> Why the attraction to a bug? (I can see a *classic* just for
>>> nostalgia -- surely not SAFETY! :> ) Are you looking for
>>> small? Fuel efficient? Cute? etc.
>>
>> I think it's cute, different, not so small that a big husband can't sit
>> in the passenger seat, and not so big that I feel like I'm still driving
>> a mini-van.
>
> <frown> Do you have money to burn? I.e., do you care about the
> reliability
> and safety of the vehicle that hauls you around town?

No money to burn and I do care about reliability and safety.

> Find something that is affordable and comfortable. If you want to be
> "cute", put a big red bow on the front grill. Or, "eyelashes" above
> the headlights. Or, a *tail* curving up over the back of the car
> from the rear bumper.

I haven't bought one, yet, and I've looked at bunches of other brand
cars, too. Haven't found one for the right price with the right options
that had comfortable front seats, etc.

> (seriously -- I have seen all of the above)

I've seen a few of those, too.

> It will make your car more memorable (to you and others), won't cost
> you much, won't alter the value, reliability or safety of the ride,
> etc. A photo of a local vendor who is known for their crazy cars:
> <http://everydaychildhood.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/trulynolen3.jpg>
> Look carefully at the front end details...

Can't a Beetle be reliable and safe?

--
Maggie

[Muggles]

LOL No, haven't seen the bud vase.

--
Maggie

[Muggles]

Miata? They seem a big small to me.

--
Maggie

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
problems, "pissing off" the customer.
>
>

[Ralph Mowery]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:04gg0b15s8ao8lbrs...@4ax.com...

>> nine tenths of the time, nine tenths of the problems people have (or
> had, particularly back in the seventies) are the fault of the dealer
> as much as the manufacturer. The dealer was paid a pretty fair price
> to do the "per-dilivery inspection and service" before delivering the
> car. It usually ended up being a quick wash and detail - with
> virtually none of the actual "inspectio and adjustment" specified
> being done. The adjustments and repairs were done on a complaints only
> basis - and usually the dealer attempted to pawn them off as "warranty
> claims" Since in most cases those claims were denied - and rightfully
> so since the dealer had already been paid to ensure there were no
> problems, the dealers did as little as possible to remedy the
> problems, "pissing off" the customer.
>>
>>

They did a good job at that on me. That was the third and last Crysler car
I bought. This car was especially bad in that it would not start. It was
funny. You could crank on it and run the battery all the way down. As it
was a manual transmission and I was living near the top of a hill, I could
get it rolling and pop the clutch and it would start. I had it towed in
about 3 times after running down the battery for them to repair and they
never got it repaired. It might have been the switch not making contact or
something in that start circuit.

I did not mention that when the car came in it had a bad spot on the paint.
The car was dark metalic blue and there was a roughly round spot about 6
inches in diameter that was light blue on the part of the trunk lid that
turns down. The dealer did repaint the trunk when I pointed that out. They
should have caught that before they called me to pick up the car, especially
as I bought it in a town about 20 miles away.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/27/2015 12:07 PM, Muggles wrote:

>
> Can't a Beetle be reliable and safe?
>

Beetle does have a good safety rating. Can't speak for its reliability,
but there are no really bad cars these days. Some better than others,
all better than cars made years ago.

[Uncle Monster]

Those letters are right next to each other. *snicker* ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Spelling Monster

[21bla...@gmail.com]

i didn't see an answer

how about renting something you think you like,
for a day or two,
or a week?

marc

[Uncle Monster]

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 9:48:13 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> "Uncle Monster" <na...@killer.com> wrote in message news:fcd0e8d1-> There

That's why car owners were removing all those emission kludges. I thought car manufacturers had the emission controls sorted out then along comes VW. Hell, VW is a descendant of the Nazi mobile. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle American Monster

[Uncle Monster]

Um, wuts a "big small"? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Puzzled Monster