Re: Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?
HeyBub
>
> Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen
> from the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
> Why can't they do that for welding?
Large scale O2 generation involves cooling air to liquify it, then pulling
off the components: Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, Argon, etc.
You CAN get Oxygen by electrolysis of water (plus Hydrogen), but the energy
expenditure is horrendous.
Certainly O2 generators can be powered by chemical means; the Oxygen masks
on airliners rely on chemical release of O2 by the burning of chlorates or
perchlorates.
All that said, you can get O2 generators for small applications (bedside,
veterinary, etc.) use, up to, and including, institutional generation, say,
for hospitals.
To answer your question directly: Bottled O2 is far cheaper than the
alternatives.
Doug Miller
Steve Barker <ichasepa...@notgmail.com> wrote:
>On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
>> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
>> oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
>> would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
>> to supplement breathing / respiration ?
>
>it's the same.
>
Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.
AZ Nomad
>On 6/18/2010 8:58 PM, Some Guy wrote:
>> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
>> oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
>> would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
>> to supplement breathing / respiration ?
>it's the same.
no it isn't
Jay Hanig
> AZ Nomad wrote:
> Even welding supply stores will stock only "medical grade" oxygen?
>
> You people might want to read this:
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html
*That* was a great article. The writer has great credibility to my
mind, as I am a registered nurse, former scuba instructor, and former
commercial pilot. I thought I knew a lot about oxygen. It turns out I
wasn't as well informed as I had assumed.
You guys really need to read this if you're interested in compressed
oxygen in any form.
Jay
Harry K
> "Some Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote in messagenews:4C1C41BB...@Guy.com...
> > Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> >> Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
> >> purity, welding does not.
>
> > How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
>
> > Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?
>
> The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure. It is 99.xxx% pure. That
> other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
> contaminant from the bottle. I used to work with medical oxygen and every
> batch had a certification giving the purity.
>
>
>
> > Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
> > oxygen tank?
>
> >> You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
> >> along with it.
>
> > I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
> > consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
> > product (the product being compressed oxygen).
>
> That is what I just said above.
>
> >The product itself is no
> > more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
> > to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.
>
> It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
> Certification. O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. Rare, but it
> has happened. Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
> welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a truck
> at a job site and start breathing it. If you get the certification with
> welding grade, then it is the same. That piece of paper is worth a lot of
> money if there ever was a problem.
One must differentiate between the "oxygen" tanks (that contain pure
oxygen) and the tanks used in the breathing apparatuses - those
contain just compressed air with the usual nitrogen, co2, etc. still
in it. The 'grab a tank off the back of a truck" implies tanks for
the SCBAs - air, not oxygen.
Harry K
Frank
use rechargeable batteries. If you are home, immobile, the medical
supplier will often give you liquid and tubing is strung around the
house. For short trips of a few hours, you can take liquid. You hire a
supplier and it is up to him to satisfy all your requirements, tank,
liquid or concentrator.
dpb
> Tom Horne wrote:
>
>>>>> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
>
...
>
> From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
> (Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
> Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
> various prices based on the label on the tank.
...
> So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
> buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
> plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
> pet. ...
The bottom line is how confident do you want to be that what comes out
of that refilled tank is, indeed, fit for breathing purposes and hasn't
been contaminated since that point?
The scenario in the posting link later of a single large bottle
refilling known smaller ones is reasonably well controlled; just taking
the next random welding bottle returned from who knows where...errr, not
so much. As someone else pointed out, you don't know what was done with
those bottles previously nor what has been done since w/o the
certification--that's the role it plays.
As for cost; it's a lot like the "N-stamp" nuclear-grade
components--many of them are, in fact, identical to their non-graded
cousins but they've been through the qualifications to prove their
pedigree; the poor red-headed stepchild _may_ be just as good but
doesn't have the papers to prove it.
--
--
Jim Yanik
> Tom Horne wrote:
>
>> > > > Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
>> > > > medical oxygen (...)
>
>> > And just to be clear -
>> >
>> > Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
>> > And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
>> > right now.
>> >
>> > Yes?
>>
>> To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
>> percent oxygen.
>
> And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
> oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
> know why you'd say it's "way less".
it's "way less" because for a given volume of gas,you get only ONE
element;oxygen,while "air" also gives you
nitrogen,argon,helium,krypton,xenon.
Not that they have any benefit,but it's "more" than what you get with pure
O2. ;-)
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Ed Pawlowski
<gfre...@aol.com> wrote
>
> If it is labeled USP, it has to be medical grade or someone will be
> sued. BTW if you go in the back of a hospital you will see "welding"
> bottles hooked up to their system.
Not only have I looked at the back of the hospital, I've hooked up the
bottles. I've also filled thousands of bottles for medical use. Every one
has a tag with the purity listed and usually a traceability batch number.
Oxygen is oxygen, but unless it has proper certification, it is not for
medical use.
The content may be the same, but the paperwork is not. Without the proper
paperwork, it is not medical grade.
jeff_wisnia
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 07:46:10 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
> <e...@snetnospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>><gfre...@aol.com> wrote
>>
>>>I buy lots of oxygen from the welding store and the label always says
>>>USP grade. I have never seen any other kind. The answer is on the
>>>label tho.
>>
>>That is because the oxygen itself it USP grade. One difference I forgot to
>>mention. Filling procedure. You can fill a welding grade bottle by making
>>the connection, opening the valve, and filling. When filling medical
>>bottles, they must be emptied, hooked to a vacuum pump and evacuated, then
>>filled.
>>
>>Welding grade can be used in many ways by many different people. You can
>>hook it to a manifold along with other gasses. If the cylinder pressure
>>drops below what other gas on that manifold it, it can be back-fed some of
>>the other gas and contaminated.
>>
>
>
> If it is labeled USP, it has to be medical grade or someone will be
> sued. BTW if you go in the back of a hospital you will see "welding"
> bottles hooked up to their system.
> than to just have one.
> They have to watch contaminants, just for safety. In the presence of
> pure oxygen, lots of things you think are pretty safe, become
> explosive. Try some steel wool.
Fine steel wool will burn pretty darn well in air too.
About 25 years ago one of my toddlers managed to touch some fine steel
wool across the terminals of a 9 volt "transistor radio" battery which
set the steel wool ablaze. The kid wasn't harmed, but I had to replace a
kitchen floor vinyl tile. <G>
Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.
Some Guy
> To answer your question directly: Bottled O2 is far cheaper than the
> alternatives.
The question was not if bottled O2 is cheaper than the alternatives.
The question was - are all forms or labels of bottled O2 essentially
equivalent.
Some Guy
> The bottom line is how confident do you want to be that what comes
> out of that refilled tank is, indeed, fit for breathing purposes
> and hasn't been contaminated since that point?
I presume that the first time that any brand-new O2 bottle is filled
with it's first batch of O2, that it has been cleaned and vacuum
evacuated first.
After that point, unless the air pressure in that tank ever falls below
ambient atmospheric pressure, it's hard to see how anything other than
pure O2 could ever re-enter it - even if it was ever connected to a
manifold system where other bottles of similarly-clean O2 are also
connected.
> The scenario in the posting link later of a single large bottle
> refilling known smaller ones is reasonably well controlled; just
> taking the next random welding bottle returned from who knows
> where...errr, not so much.
I understand that I can buy, or rent, oxy-acetelene tanks. If I buy,
I'm not sure if I can have my bought-tank re-filled and returned to me,
or if I simply exchange it for filled (but used) tank.
If I buy a brand new tank, and if I keep refilling that same tank when I
need more, then I am removing the uncertainty of what could have been in
the tank before it was filled.
And when it comes to refilling returned tanks, is it normal practice to
at least let the tank fully depressurize itself before it's refilled?
Wouldn't that dillute any potential non-oxygen gas or even particulate
contaminent that it *may* have once the tank has been refilled with
known-pure O2?
Some Guy
> Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs
> other tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated
> to insure there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.
How exactly could something get into the tank in the first place?
If it's connected to a manifold system, then yes, the gas from a
higher-pressure tank could flow into it. But doesn't that
higher-pressure tank already contain known-pure O2?
If it's never connected to a manifold system or to another tank, then
how exactly could something get into it? Deliberate tampering?
Some Guy
> > Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?
> No, but other gasses can be introduced. Even the compressors for
> the regular air firefighters have to be carefully maintained. Oils,
> etc., can be introduced that cause failure of the seals.
Do compressed air suppliers have different compressors for filling
different O2 bottles from their bulk LOX source supply?
Hasn't it already been mentioned that even welding O2 gas needs to be
just as clean as medical-grade O2?
> At least for medical oxygen you pay more because the tests and
> tracking requirements of medical oxygen is more expensive.
I'm not convinced that there are any such tests.
Paperwork and barcode scanning? Yes, sure. I can see that. But unless
someone posts something indicating that such "testing" is done, then I
think it's pure speculation that there is this testing step.
> These are additional processing steps (at least the
> testing and certification).
Testing is the same as certification. So what are these additional
processing steps beyond testing?
Do you work at a compressed air supply company?
Steve Barker
> Some Guy wrote:
>> Tom Horne wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
>>>>>> medical oxygen (...)
>>
>>>> And just to be clear -
>>>>
>>>> Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
>>>> And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
>>>> right now.
>>>>
>>>> Yes?
>>>
>>> To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
>>> percent oxygen.
>>
>> And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
>> oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
>> know why you'd say it's "way less".
>>
>>
>> And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?
>>
>> Harry K wrote:
>>
>>> Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
>>> ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
>>> use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
>>> discussion).
>>
>> From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
>> (Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
>> Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
>> various prices based on the label on the tank.
>>
>> and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
>> insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
>> carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
>> less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
>> means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
>> accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.
>>
>> The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
>> situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
>> through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
>> the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
>> be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
>> more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
>> other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
>> because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.
>>
>> And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
>> only so they don't rust.
>>
>> Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
>> story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
>> supply and metering lines.
>>
>> So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
>> buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
>> plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
>> deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
>> probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.
>>
>> The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
>> daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
>> use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
>> manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
>> strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.
>
> Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
> the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
> Why can't they do that for welding?
>
>
>
o2 for the oxy/acy setup.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
Steve Barker
i read the responses. It's the same.
Ed Pawlowski
"Some Guy" <So...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C1D1798...@Guy.com...
Temperature changes. If you have an open tank and let the gas inside
expand, then contract, it will draw in outside air, moisture, or whatever.
Leave that tank long enough and you can get all sorts of contamination, not
all of which is harmful, but it would still not meet medical criteria.
AZ Nomad
It *can* be the same. However, oxygen graded for welding, but not
for medical use, isn't safe for medical use.
Wether or not a store sells medical grade oxygen to welders is up
to the store and not universally true.
Doug Miller
Jim Yanik
news:hvjf4r$2e4$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
the people who said they're different said it a long time ago when they
actually were different.
Times have changed,they no longer actually are different.
did you not read the article cited? it was very informative.
HeyBub
If the other tank contained, say, acetylene.
Doug Miller
Uh-huh. Right. Welding oxygen is certified just as pure as medical oxygen, no
contaminants. Suuuurrrrre it is. That's why they use welding oxygen in
hospitals.
Pete C.
The purity standard for welding O2 is higher than the purity standard
for medical O2. In reality all three normal grades you can get, welding,
medical and aviator exceed all of the standards. Only the analytical
grade is higher purity.
Pete C.
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Some Guy" <So...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C1C41BB...@Guy.com...
> > Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >
> >> Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
> >> purity, welding does not.
> >
> > How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
> >
>
> other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
> contaminant from the bottle. I used to work with medical oxygen and every
> batch had a certification giving the purity.
>
> >
> > Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
> > oxygen tank?
> >
> >> You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
> >> along with it.
> >
> > I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
> > consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
> > product (the product being compressed oxygen).
>
> That is what I just said above.
>
> >The product itself is no
> > more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
> > to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.
>
> It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
> Certification. O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. Rare, but it
> has happened. Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
> welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a truck
> at a job site and start breathing it. If you get the certification with
> welding grade, then it is the same. That piece of paper is worth a lot of
> money if there ever was a problem.
>
>
Medical 99.95% pure
Welding 99.99% pure
AZ Nomad
>The purity standard for welding O2 is higher than the purity standard
>for medical O2. In reality all three normal grades you can get, welding,
>medical and aviator exceed all of the standards. Only the analytical
>grade is higher purity.
Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage of oxygen
and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes but you can use medical O2
for welding.
Jay Hanig
> Uh-huh. Right. Welding oxygen is certified just as pure as medical oxygen, no
> contaminants. Suuuurrrrre it is. That's why they use welding oxygen in
> hospitals.
There is a LOT of shit done in hospitals simply because that is the way
they've always done it. To suggest otherwise to them will get you a
look that suggests you've lost your mind.
I deal with policies all the time that closer examination would reveal
are outdated and kind of stupid if you consider the current realities.
But the Powers That Be know what they know and nobody can tell them
different. So we still do what we've always done.... because we've
always done it that way.
A lawyer would probably make a big deal about "welding" oxygen instead
of USP in much the same way the US Navy made a big deal about the
captain of the USS Indianapolis not zigzaging when his ship was
torpedoed. The commander of the Japanese submarine testified at his
court martial that it wouldn't have mattered one way or the other; he
still would have nailed him. The Navy didn't care... because policy
stated you should always zigzag when submarines might be around. After
all, they'd always done it that way.
Many of the folks who determine these policies are dinosaurs, and about
as current.
Jay
Jay Hanig
> Acetylene in an oxygen tank is a bomb.
> It could get contaminated by bacteria from the "breathing" that
> happens when you leave the valve open but most real welders will turn
> the tank back in with a little pressure in it, Same for SCUBA folks.
You typically never allow the pressure to drop to zero because higher
pressure in the tank is the only way to keep ambient moisture from
entering the tank. Ultimately it's to keep the tank from rusting on the
inside.
Jay
Ed Pawlowski
"Jay Hanig" <jayh...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:NxiTn.32956$yx.1...@newsfe13.iad...
That is exactly why medical oxygen thanks have to be evacuated. Rare that
one would come back with any pressure at all.
George
> Some Guy wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
usage shop.
Some Guy
> > You typically never allow the pressure to drop to zero because
> > higher pressure in the tank is the only way to keep ambient
> > moisture from entering the tank. Ultimately it's to keep the
> > tank from rusting on the inside.
> That is exactly why medical oxygen thanks have to be evacuated.
> Rare that one would come back with any pressure at all.
I would think the contrary.
O2 tanks used by hospitals are more likely to be part of a manifold
system, and as such will always be maintained at some positive pressure
by virtue of the fact that at least one of their "gang-mates" is likely
to have enough excess pressure to keep them partially pressurized.
If a gang of O2 tanks at a hospital collectively fall below some
acceptible level of pressure, then they're no longer useful as an air
souce and MUST be changed out. So again the argument here is that
medical O2 tanks are MORE likely to be returned while still containing
some positive pressure charge.
If the strongest argument so far is that a "medical-grade" tank of O2
has lived it's life with minimal to zero infiltration of atmospheric
humidity (or even nitrogen) compared to a welding tank, then that's a
pretty weak argument to say that a tank of welding O2 is unhealthy to
breath. Last I checked, we all take in some some water vapor and
nitrogen when we breath standard air.
In other words, a lack of "purity" does not equal unhealthy or hazardous
for human breathing. A lack of purity (it seems) will degrade welding
performance, maybe mess up equipment, etc.
And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks of welding
O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as supposedly medical
tanks are.
Some Guy
> Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage
> of oxygen and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.
Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those? We freeking breath them all the time - in concentrations
several orders of magnitude higher than what could possibly exist in a
tank of welding O2.
> You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes
Says who?
A lawyer? Or a biochemist?
Some Guy
> Medical 99.95% pure
> Welding 99.99% pure
Here's the problem I have with that.
What is the compressed gas supplier doing differently that would result
in that very slight (but consistent?) difference between those two
products?
If he has two machines or processes for creating the two products
(welding O2 and medical O2) and if the welding O2 product is more
"pure", then why would he operate two processes instead of simply using
a single process (the higher purity process) to create *both* of them?
Especially since the welding product is retailed at a lower price to
start with.
The Daring Dufas
I can see a huge LOX tank next to a main traffic artery in the Southside
neighborhood of Birmingham where UAB Hospital is located. Tanker trucks
pull up next to the thing and fill it on a regular basis. The
maintenance guys who work for the complex tell me there are tunnels all
around under the place filled with all sorts of conduits and pipes that
distribute various electrons, liquids and gases that keep the hospital
alive. I imagine that LOX tank supplies O2 to the whole hospital and
perhaps a couple of different hospitals in the same general area. The
hospitals share doctors, why not oxygen?
TDD
Some Guy
> I can see a huge LOX tank next to a main traffic artery in the
> Southside neighborhood of Birmingham where UAB Hospital is located.
LOX is a different situation. It requires a cryogenic storage tank, and
perhaps on-site re-compression to boost the pressure of the O2 that's
vaporized from the LOX as needed.
We're talking about the bottled O2 that's sold under variously-labelled
end-uses by the compressed gas retailer, and whether or not there's any
*real* negative health implications when using welding O2 gas instead of
"medical" O2 gas in a residential setting.
The Daring Dufas
It wouldn't surprise me if the LOX tank is used to fill portable tanks
for patient use. I'll have to ask one of my friends who works
maintenance at the hospital.
TDD
Ed Pawlowski
"Some Guy" <So...@Guy.com> wrote
>> That is exactly why medical oxygen thanks have to be evacuated.
>> Rare that one would come back with any pressure at all.
>
> I would think the contrary.
>
> O2 tanks used by hospitals are more likely to be part of a manifold
> system, and as such will always be maintained at some positive pressure
> by virtue of the fact that at least one of their "gang-mates" is likely
> to have enough excess pressure to keep them partially pressurized.
You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private homes. They
are single size, no manifolds, They are generally used until empty.
Valves are left open, regulators removed. They are sometimes stored in poor
environments, must basements, trunk of a car, under the sink, laundry room.
>
> If the strongest argument so far is that a "medical-grade" tank of O2
> has lived it's life with minimal to zero infiltration of atmospheric
> humidity (or even nitrogen) compared to a welding tank, then that's a
> pretty weak argument to say that a tank of welding O2 is unhealthy to
> breath. Last I checked, we all take in some some water vapor and
> nitrogen when we breath standard air.
>
> In other words, a lack of "purity" does not equal unhealthy or hazardous
> for human breathing. A lack of purity (it seems) will degrade welding
> performance, maybe mess up equipment, etc.
>
> And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks of welding
> O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as supposedly medical
> tanks are.
Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.
Steve B
"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snetnospam.net> wrote in message
news:FrCdnTzS_flU1oHR...@giganews.com...
When I was a commercial deep sea diver, the oxygen we used in decompression
chambers was the same oxygen that we used for OA cutting. We did not use
medical oxygen.
Steve
visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.
Ed Pawlowski
"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote
>
> It wouldn't surprise me if the LOX tank is used to fill portable tanks
> for patient use. I'll have to ask one of my friends who works maintenance
> at the hospital.
>
> TDD
LOX tanks fill LOX tanks. They can be filled for patient use of that is
what their supplier gives them. They are a different setup that using
compressed O2 though. Different tanks, regulators, etc. They are not
usually filled at hospital though, but by independent providers.
Compressed tanks either need mechanical pumps or, most home medical
suppliers use a cascade system of tanks increasing pressure into the smaller
tanks with each on up the line.
Kurt Ullman
"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snetnospam.net> wrote:
>
> You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
> hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private homes. They
> are single size, no manifolds, They are generally used until empty.
> Valves are left open, regulators removed. They are sometimes stored in poor
> environments, must basements, trunk of a car, under the sink, laundry room.
Which is why there are requirements for cleaning the tanks before
filling. After that, you are on your own. Same with medicines, etc. They
have to be manufactured and stored pre-patient to certain conditions.
>
> > And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks of welding
> > O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as supposedly medical
> > tanks are.
>
> Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.
>
>
Interestingly enough, this thread has gone on for as long as it has
w/o anyone mentioning the main danger of non-medical oxygen... That the
insurance company won't pay for it (g).
--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist
Pete C.
Nope, exactly the opposite.
Ed Pawlowski
"Some Guy" <So...@Guy.com> wrote
> Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
> to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
> nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
> of those?
But if the analysis does not say what the impurities are, you are trading on
dangerous ground. That welding tank may have been used along with any
other gas used in industrial environments.
>
>> You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes
>
> Says who?
>
> A lawyer? Or a biochemist?
Lawyers and other sensible people that do not know what other gas may be in
there. Oxygen falls into the same type of situation ad drugs. The active
ingredients of a pill are often a small percentage of the tablet, the rest
being inert ingredients. There are regulations on what those inert
ingredients can be. There are regulations on how they are handled.
If I was dying in an emergency situation from lack of oxygen, I'd grab any
tank available. If I was at home with COPD, I'd want to be sure that tank
was handled in a proper manner and would not make me worse off.
Pete C.
They aren't doing anything different, those are the *standards*, not the
actual product spec. The reality is that both grades (actually four
since there is an "aviator" grade and an "analytical" grade as well) are
filled from the same cryo tanks and both exceed the 99.99% welding grade
standard. Only the analytical grade gets extra attention to ensure it is
99.999% pure.
Pete C.
I've seen this as well, just one big rack of "welding" O2 cylinders,
grab one for cutting, or grab one for the hyperbaric chamber, all the
same.
Pete C.
Doug Miller wrote:
>
> In article <SK2dnRfBjvQiJ4HR...@giganews.com>,
> Steve Barker <ichasepa...@notgmail.com> wrote:
> >> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
> >> would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
> >> to supplement breathing / respiration ?
> >
> >it's the same.
> >
> Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
> who actually know the difference.
Yes, it's the same. Anything to the contrary is "urban legend" or hype
for the purpose of charging more for the same stuff. All the O2 grades,
including the five nines analytical grade are filled from the same cryo
tanks, and only the analytical grade gets any extra testing to ensure
the 99.999% spec. The reality is that the welding O2 purity standard
(99.99%) is higher than the medical O2 purity standard (99.95%), and
that the actual product from the gas suppliers exceeds those purity
standards by a wide margin.
Pete C.
As has been noted many times already, the welding grade purity standard
is higher than that for the medical grade. People who do not know
anything about welding think it's some low standards dirty process, but
that is simply not the reality. Impurities in O2 that are harmless for
human use, will cause welds to fail inspections.
Welding O2 standard 99.99% pure O2
Medical O2 standard 99.95% pure O2
The reality is that the actual product in the cylinders is closer to
99.999% pure, the analytical grade standard.
AZ Nomad
>Nope, exactly the opposite.
Your assertion is in direct opposition to purity standards especially
those regarding impurities.
Why don't you make a slight attempt to educate yourself?
Pete C.
Why don't you do some research? I actually use O2 regularly, both for
welding / cutting as well as for breathing and nitrox blending. I'm well
aware of the fact that the welding O2 purity standard is tighter than
the standard for medical O2, as well as the fact that all grades of O2
from any of the large gas suppliers exceeds both the welding and medical
purity standards by a significant margin.
Pete C.
You're stuck on old paranoia based on information that is decades out of
date. All of the O2 purity grades specify no more than 0.05% impurities,
and the most lax of the standards is the medical / aviator grade. The
reality is that all the grades are filled from the same cryo O2 source
and all are better than 99.99% pure O2.
AZ Nomad
It isn't. Read on impurities, not just the main percentage of O2.
AZ Nomad
Again, you ignore impurities and only look at the O2 percentage.
Pete C.
So provide a cite to your claimed impurity information, and what
impurity present at 0.001% concentration in the O2 is such a hazard.
The Daring Dufas
Hummmm, so you say LOX can't be allowed to boil off into O2 gas and
be distributed all over a hospital campus or used to fill portable
O2 tanks? UAB hospital has several hospitals next door. The VA, the
county hospital, The Eye Foundation and several clinics are all on
the same street. Many are connected by skywalks so I have to believe
they share resources.
TDD
Harry K
> "Some Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote
exactly as I was taught in First Aid. Any tank of oxy (be sure it is
oxy and not just compressed air) will do in an emergency but use
medical for extended periods.
Harry K
Ed Pawlowski
>> suppliers use a cascade system of tanks increasing pressure into the
>> smaller tanks with each on up the line.
>
> Hummmm, so you say LOX can't be allowed to boil off into O2 gas and
> be distributed all over a hospital campus or used to fill portable
> O2 tanks?
No, not what I said, It is done often for use, but not for filling tanks.
What I did was is that the oxygen coming off of the LOX is not of sufficient
pressure to fill a compressed tank, you need mechanical pumps to assist.
There are small tanks that can be filled with LOX from big tanks and that is
allowed for local use or portables. You are confusing two different forms
of O2 and the equipment used for them.
UAB hospital has several hospitals next door. The VA, the
> county hospital, The Eye Foundation and several clinics are all on
> the same street. Many are connected by skywalks so I have to believe
> they share resources.
I doubt they have a central tank to go that distance, but I've not seen it.
Post photos or drawings of the layout when you get them.
The Daring Dufas
I'll see what I can find out from some of the guys who work there. If
I take pictures, the UAB police may tackle me as a terrorism suspect.
I may drive by with my camera this week.
TDD
Some Guy
> > O2 tanks used by hospitals are more likely to be part of a
> > manifold system, and as such will always be maintained at
> > some positive pressure by virtue of the fact that at least
> > one of their "gang-mates" is likely to have enough excess
> > pressure to keep them partially pressurized.
>
> You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
> hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private
> homes.
Even the large tanks (5-foot tall) are used in homes?
> They are single size, no manifolds, They are generally used
> until empty. Valves are left open, regulators removed.
> They are sometimes stored in poor environments, must basements,
> trunk of a car, under the sink, laundry room.
So what you're saying is that welding tanks are probably safer - because
they're not as exposed to such nasty conditions and situations as the
home-use medical tanks are? And welding tanks are more likely to be
returned with some positive pressure - as opposed to home-use medical
tanks as you have just described?
> > And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks
> > of welding O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as
> > supposedly medical tanks are.
>
> Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.
So go further and tell us if welding tanks are, or are not, evacuated
prior to being refilled.
Some Guy
> > What is the compressed gas supplier doing differently that would
> > result in that very slight (but consistent?) difference between
> > those two products?
> They aren't doing anything different, those are the *standards*,
> not the actual product spec. The reality is that both grades are
> filled from the same cryo tanks and both exceed the 99.99% welding
> grade standard.
So how is it known that these gasses meet this 99.99% spec?
Are they tested?
Or are they compressed with equipment that is known to NOT inject
contaminents during pressurization?
Much of what is speculated here is not with the "purity" of the source
gas, or the compentency of the compression equipment to maintain that
purity as a tank is being pressurized, but with what *might* happen with
these tanks when in the hands of end-users as they reach their empty
state prior to being returned to be reused.
Seems that some people here are hung up on that point, and we are all
speculating as to just what the gas retailer does behind the scenes with
these returned tanks prior to refilling them.
Ed Pawlowski
"Some Guy" <So...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C1EECC1...@Guy.com...
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>> You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
>> hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private
>> homes.
>
> Even the large tanks (5-foot tall) are used in homes?
Yes. sometimes. That is an "H" tank. Most home uses is smaller "D" tanks.
D and E tanks are generally used as portables or for emergency backup if a
concentrator fails or if there is a power failure.
> So what you're saying is that welding tanks are probably safer - because
> they're not as exposed to such nasty conditions and situations as the
> home-use medical tanks are? And welding tanks are more likely to be
> returned with some positive pressure - as opposed to home-use medical
> tanks as you have just described?
Show me where I said industrial tanks are not exposed to nasty conditions.
>
>> > And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks
>> > of welding O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as
>> > supposedly medical tanks are.
>>
>> Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.
>
> So go further and tell us if welding tanks are, or are not, evacuated
> prior to being refilled.
I worked with medical, not industrial so I don't know the answer, nor do I
care. Medical oxygen comes with paperwork. That makes it different and the
only way it can be used for a patient. Think what you want, but unless it
is medical grade, no oxygen supplier is going to give a tank to a patient.
Ed Pawlowski
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote
>
> You're stuck on old paranoia based on information that is decades out of
> date. All of the O2 purity grades specify no more than 0.05% impurities,
> and the most lax of the standards is the medical / aviator grade. The
> reality is that all the grades are filled from the same cryo O2 source
> and all are better than 99.99% pure O2.
I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything abut a welding
tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I don't know what was in the
tank beforehand.
I'm not stuck on decades information, my son owns a medical supply company
that supplies oxygen. I worked part time for him filling tanks and
delivering LOX. We followed the regulations on medical oxygen. You are
free to breath whatever you like though.
The Daring Dufas
A fellow I know works on X-ray equipment and said the 50 cent bolt from
HD or Lowe's costs $25 if it's for one of his X-ray machines. The reason
being a stack of paperwork required for each little part. Is it
an exaggeration? I don't know but I know someone who does and I may have
to drop by and ask him.
TDD
Pete C.
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote
> >
> > You're stuck on old paranoia based on information that is decades out of
> > date. All of the O2 purity grades specify no more than 0.05% impurities,
> > and the most lax of the standards is the medical / aviator grade. The
> > reality is that all the grades are filled from the same cryo O2 source
> > and all are better than 99.99% pure O2.
>
> I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything abut a welding
> tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I don't know what was in the
> tank beforehand.
The gas suppliers are not about to fill 2,000 PSI+ of pure O2 on top of
some amount of unknown gas in the welding tank, that would be dangerous
for them.
>
> I'm not stuck on decades information, my son owns a medical supply company
> that supplies oxygen. I worked part time for him filling tanks and
> delivering LOX. We followed the regulations on medical oxygen. You are
> free to breath whatever you like though.
You follow your insurance / liability regulations, which do not in any
way relate to the actual safety of using the "welding" O2 vs. "medical"
O2, and have not been updated in decades.
Pete C.
Some Guy wrote:
>
> "Pete C." wrote:
>
> > > What is the compressed gas supplier doing differently that would
> > > result in that very slight (but consistent?) difference between
> > > those two products?
>
> > They aren't doing anything different, those are the *standards*,
> > not the actual product spec. The reality is that both grades are
> > filled from the same cryo tanks and both exceed the 99.99% welding
> > grade standard.
>
> So how is it known that these gasses meet this 99.99% spec?
>
> Are they tested?
The source cryo tanks certainly are.
>
> Or are they compressed with equipment that is known to NOT inject
> contaminents during pressurization?
The same equipment is used to fill all "grades" of cylinders.
>
> Much of what is speculated here is not with the "purity" of the source
> gas, or the compentency of the compression equipment to maintain that
> purity as a tank is being pressurized, but with what *might* happen with
> these tanks when in the hands of end-users as they reach their empty
> state prior to being returned to be reused.
>
> Seems that some people here are hung up on that point, and we are all
> speculating as to just what the gas retailer does behind the scenes with
> these returned tanks prior to refilling them.
The gas suppliers are not about to fill 2,000 PSI+ of pure O2 on top of
some amount of mystery gas in the "welding" cylinder, especially since
those "welding" cylinders are typically used in conjunction with a fuel
gas. Putting pure O2 on top of some inadvertently transfilled Acetylene,
propylene, propane, etc. would not be a healthy thing for the workers at
the gas plant.
Some Guy
> > Much of what is speculated here is not with the "purity" of the
> > source gas, or the compentency of the compression equipment to
> > maintain that purity as a tank is being pressurized, but with
> > what *might* happen with these tanks when in the hands of end-
> > users as they reach their empty state prior to being returned
> > to be reused.
> >
> > Seems that some people here are hung up on that point, and we
> > are all speculating as to just what the gas retailer does
> > behind the scenes with these returned tanks prior to refilling
> > them.
>
> The gas suppliers are not about to fill 2,000 PSI+ of pure O2
> on top of some amount of mystery gas in the "welding" cylinder,
While that sounds logical, just saying it is not going to satisfy others
unless more concrete proof is posted to show that the average compressed
gas retailer or supplier performs the same processes and proceedures on
all types of returned cylinders (evacuation, internal cleaning, etc)
prior to refilling.
But I still submit that many of their arguments as to just how these
tanks can become contaminated in the first place is implausible.
Some Guy
> I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything about
> a welding tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I don't know
> what was in the tank beforehand.
So you are speculating that the average compressed-gas retailer or
supplier does not perform the same steps to evacuate / clean / what-ever
/ a welding tank that he (or you) does with a medical tank.
> I'm not stuck on decades information, my son owns a medical supply
> company that supplies oxygen.
So you have a vested interest to maintain the impression that the
average citizen shouldn't or can't use less expensive welding oxygen
tanks in place of "medical" certified tanks for breathing or as a
respiratory aid.
Ed Pawlowski
"Some Guy" <So...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C1F6BF5...@Guy.com...
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything about
>> a welding tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I don't know
>> what was in the tank beforehand.
>
> So you are speculating that the average compressed-gas retailer or
> supplier does not perform the same steps to evacuate / clean / what-ever
> / a welding tank that he (or you) does with a medical tank.
I'm not speculalting; you are. I said I did not know but you are trying to
twist that. . Please don't lower yourself that way; it is not very
becoming. .
>
>> I'm not stuck on decades information, my son owns a medical supply
>> company that supplies oxygen.
>
> So you have a vested interest to maintain the impression that the
> average citizen shouldn't or can't use less expensive welding oxygen
> tanks in place of "medical" certified tanks for breathing or as a
> respiratory aid.
I have a vested interest in supplying proper care for patients. I'm not
maintaining any impression, I'm dealing with facts.
If it does not have that piece of paper, it is not medical oxygen. By
supplying anything else, a supplier can be sued, can lose accreditation. I
have a vested interest in complying with regulations. Use what you want,
but you won't get it from me. Nor will your insurance company pay for it if
not in compliance.
I know what is in medical oxygen and can trace the source. Until you can do
the same with welding oxygen, it is now allowed for patient use, now matter
how much you say it is the same. FWIW, the actual cost of oxygen has
little bearing on the cost of supplying it to a patient at home. It has no
bearing on how much a supplier is paid by Medicare or insurance,as that is a
fixed amount. They give the supplier $XX per month to cover the oxygen and
all associated supplies and costs. Some patient se 2X or 3X of others, butt
he amount paid is the same. If we could supply welding O2, it would be more
profitable, not less.
Twayne
Pete C. <aux3....@snet.net> typed:
Amazing: All those posts, guesses and "sound good" types mostly, for a
question that's so easily answered with a search engine that it's actually
pathetic. This is precsely why groups like this have such low crediblity and
high drift rates.
Ed Pawlowski
"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote in message
> A fellow I know works on X-ray equipment and said the 50 cent bolt from
> HD or Lowe's costs $25 if it's for one of his X-ray machines. The reason
> being a stack of paperwork required for each little part. Is it
> an exaggeration? I don't know but I know someone who does and I may have
> to drop by and ask him.
>
> TDD
I don't know if that is exactly the cost, but it sure is going to be higher.
Anything needing certification or to meet military specs is higher. In the
McMaster catalog a 1/4-20 stainless bolt can be 14¢ to meet ASTM specs and
becomes 94¢ to meet a MIL spec.
Kurt Ullman
>
> While that sounds logical, just saying it is not going to satisfy others
> unless more concrete proof is posted to show that the average compressed
> gas retailer or supplier performs the same processes and proceedures on
> all types of returned cylinders (evacuation, internal cleaning, etc)
> prior to refilling.
Actually all that is needed is to know that the FDA and other
agencies require certain additional tests to be performed and paperwork
filled out before something can be called medical oxygen. Under these
laws you cannot knowingly sell non-medical Oxygen for medical purposes
and the insurance company sure as heck won't pay for it.
If the question is can someone go to the local Ox-shop, tell the
person they want welding oxygen, take it home and use it for medical,
yeah. Just like you can use medications for off-label uses, but you take
on extra risks by doing that.
--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist
notbob
> I don't know if that is exactly the cost, but it sure is going to be higher.
> Anything needing certification or to meet military specs is higher. In the
> McMaster catalog a 1/4-20 stainless bolt can be 14¢ to meet ASTM specs and
> becomes 94¢ to meet a MIL spec.
Just like food grade propane! ;)
nb
Pete C.
Kurt Ullman wrote:
>
> If the question is can someone go to the local Ox-shop, tell the
> person they want welding oxygen, take it home and use it for medical,
> yeah. Just like you can use medications for off-label uses, but you take
> on extra risks by doing that.
The chief extra risk is that someone will claim that the welding O2 will
kill you for some nebulous reason. I guess the medial O2 atoms are
different from the welding O2 atoms.
AZ Nomad
You need to quit sniffing the stuff.
Some Guy
> >> I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything
> >> about a welding tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I
> >> don't know what was in the tank beforehand.
> >
> > So you are speculating that the average compressed-gas retailer
> > or supplier does not perform the same steps to evacuate / clean
> > / what-ever / a welding tank that he (or you) does with a medical
> > tank.
>
> I'm not speculalting; you are.
I've never stated either why what I think is done to returned welding
tanks prior to getting refilled.
The worst case situation is to assume that no special treatment is done
to them. They are simply connected to a compressor and they are
re-charged with O2, and probably using the same equipment, the same
valves and lines and the same source of O2 that are used to fill all O2
tanks that are sold or rented at that site, which could be for welding,
medical, or aviation use.
> I said I did not know but you are trying to twist that. .
I said several times that you are proceeding from a point of view that
the handling and processing of returned welding tanks IS different from
that of medical tanks.
Let me ask you this:
If, hypothetically speaking, a compressed-gas supplier handled and
processed ALL returned O2 cylinders the same way (both welding and
medical cylinders) - which is to say that they are always cleaned,
evaculated, etc, according to medical-grade specifications, then what
would be your argument that an end-user shouldn't purchase a tank of
"welding grade" O2 for their own medical or veterinary purposes from
that supplier?
> If it does not have that piece of paper, it is not medical oxygen.
I agree that selling a tank of welding O2 to someone as a medical-grade
tank of O2 (and charging medical-grade prices) is wrong and probably
violates all sorts of laws and insurance policies.
But we are not talking specifically about that situation (product
fraud).
If I buy welding O2 specifically for medical purposes, I agree that I am
taking some sort of risk that I have no recourse or remedy for should
the tank contain some harmful impurity. But I'm not convinced that a
medical tank has a lower probability of containing a harmful impurity
compared to a welding tank. The difference is that when I pay more for
a medical tank, I am in effect buying an insurance policy that allows me
to seek financial compensation. Perhaps I see no value in that
additional cost if the odds of any tank (welding or medical) containing
a harmful impurity are extremely low.
Some Guy
> If the question is can someone go to the local Ox-shop, tell the
> person they want welding oxygen, take it home and use it for
> medical, yeah. Just like you can use medications for off-label
> uses, but you take on extra risks by doing that.
Is it really the case that you are taking on extra risk?
Or is it more the case that you can seek financial compensation if you
purchase the medical-labelled product, because the extra cost you
shelled out for was essentially an insurance policy - not a garantee or
a certainty of getting a better product. ?
Kurt Ullman
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
I would say the extra risk is not quantifiable, at least within the
confines of a Usenet group.
Anyone interested, here are the FDA regs for med oxygen. The only
thing that really stood out initially is the requirement to double
purge, and some bookkeeping stuff.
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual
/ucm074381.htm
Kurt Ullman
>
> I said several times that you are proceeding from a point of view that
> the handling and processing of returned welding tanks IS different from
> that of medical tanks.
>
It is, by federal regulation. How much of the difference is paperwork
and how much is real... well it IS a federal regulation.
> Let me ask you this:
>
> If, hypothetically speaking, a compressed-gas supplier handled and
> processed ALL returned O2 cylinders the same way (both welding and
> medical cylinders) - which is to say that they are always cleaned,
> evaculated, etc, according to medical-grade specifications, then what
> would be your argument that an end-user shouldn't purchase a tank of
> "welding grade" O2 for their own medical or veterinary purposes from
> that supplier?
Other than the insurance company won't pay for it?
Kurt Ullman
> Kurt Ullman wrote:
>
> > If the question is can someone go to the local Ox-shop, tell the
> > person they want welding oxygen, take it home and use it for
> > medical, yeah. Just like you can use medications for off-label
> > uses, but you take on extra risks by doing that.
>
> Is it really the case that you are taking on extra risk?
At least at the level of expertise shown on this NG, you are
definitely taking on a risk of not knowing exactly if there is a
difference.
>
> Or is it more the case that you can seek financial compensation if you
> purchase the medical-labelled product, because the extra cost you
> shelled out for was essentially an insurance policy - not a garantee or
> a certainty of getting a better product. ?
You are guaranteed you are getting a different product, medical
oxygen as opposed to non-medical oxygen. You are guaranteed that extra
steps were taken in the production of the medical oxygen that are
required to get that designation. Now whether that is real or not, I
guess is open to discussion.
Steve B
"Kurt Ullman" <kurtu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18KdnddWVs1Df4LR...@earthlink.com...
I, for one, would bet a dollar to a donut hole that billions of cubic feet
of industrial oxygen has been sold as medical oxygen, and charged for
accordingly. Particularly among the PC crowd.
Steve
Steve B
My guess is that there is actually a miniscule amount of difference, but one
would have to use sophisticated equipment to discern the difference. And I
believe that the miniscule amount of "contaminants", or things other than O2
molecules would not be dangerous to anyone's health unless they were cyanide
or plutonium or something equally harmful. Not enough difference to make a
difference, basically.
But I would be curious to hear from a test lab. BTW, that was an awesome
document. What did it say?
Steve
visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com
A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.
The Daring Dufas
I've been using low cholesterol gasoline in my van.
TDD
hal...@aol.com
Its probably safe to assume anyone on O2 has health issues, so why add
extra health risks to anyone who is already ill?????
Ed Pawlowski
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:4c1fcdcc$0$3977$ec3e...@unlimited.usenetmonster.com...
I don't think anyone is saying the O2 is any different, just the possibility
of contamination in handling. As I stated, I've handled medical grade, but
not welding grade so I'm not going to speculate on the probability. I do
know that things like that can (and do) happen even with medical grade as
there is a human factor.
Ed Pawlowski
"Some Guy" <So...@Guy.com> wrote
>
> I said several times that you are proceeding from a point of view that
> the handling and processing of returned welding tanks IS different from
> that of medical tanks.
I said I don't know if there is a difference. You seem to have a difficult
time comprehending that. Once you do, you will realize there is no reason to
discus this any further. Feel free to assume I mean things I've never said
though, as long as you have fun.
>
> Let me ask you this:
>
> If, hypothetically speaking, a compressed-gas supplier handled and
> processed ALL returned O2 cylinders the same way (both welding and
> medical cylinders) - which is to say that they are always cleaned,
> evaculated, etc, according to medical-grade specifications, then what
> would be your argument that an end-user shouldn't purchase a tank of
> "welding grade" O2 for their own medical or veterinary purposes from
> that supplier?
>
>> If it does not have that piece of paper, it is not medical oxygen.
I already replied to that. See the line above.
I'm working with facts, you are working with speculation and hypothetical
speaking.
>
> If I buy welding O2 specifically for medical purposes, I agree that I am
> taking some sort of risk that I have no recourse or remedy for should
> the tank contain some harmful impurity. But I'm not convinced that a
> medical tank has a lower probability of containing a harmful impurity
> compared to a welding tank.
You are welcome to your opinion. It may or may not be correct. Find out for
sure and be at ease with your speculation.
Some Guy
> > If, hypothetically speaking, a compressed-gas supplier handled
> > and processed ALL returned O2 cylinders the same way (both
> > welding and medical cylinders)
>>> If it does not have that piece of paper, it is not medical oxygen.
>
> I already replied to that. See the line above.
> I'm working with facts, you are working with speculation and
> hypothetical speaking.
You are not working with facts. You are working with pieces of paper.
It's ridiculous to say that two tanks that are handled identically
behind the scenes are nonetheless different because of a piece of paper.
> > But I'm not convinced that a medical tank has a lower
> > probability of containing a harmful impurity compared
> > to a welding tank.
>
> You are welcome to your opinion. It may or may not be correct.
> Find out for sure and be at ease with your speculation.
Since you claim to have actually filled commercial medical O2 tanks,
tell me what analytical testing you did to insure that their purity was
99.95%. What lab equipment did you use to determine the purity of the
O2 in those tanks?
Ed Pawlowski
"Some Guy" <So...@Guy.com> wrote in message
>
> It's ridiculous to say that two tanks that are handled identically
> behind the scenes are nonetheless different because of a piece of paper.
>
That piece of paper makes a big difference in the end use. It is not
medical oxygen without it, no matter your opinion. I suggest you take it up
with the FDA and have them change their ways. They make the rules, not me.
>
> Since you claim to have actually filled commercial medical O2 tanks,
> tell me what analytical testing you did to insure that their purity was
> 99.95%. What lab equipment did you use to determine the purity of the
> O2 in those tanks?
I read the piece of paper that came from the O2 supplier. He does the
analysis and certifies it, then we fill patient tanks from the bulk tanks.
That complies with regulations. If we did that with welding grade and
distributed it for patient use, we'd be subject to all sorts of fines and
liability.
Steve B
> You are not working with facts. You are working with pieces of paper.
I bought two tanks last year or two, and one was manufactured by a company
now out of business for twenty years. The tank had 800# pressure in it. It
was out of hydro.
I took it to one place, and they told me to unload it on to their dock, that
they were confiscating it, thank you very much. I said, not as long as it
was in back of my truck they weren't. I asked the man what they would do.
He said they would take the tank and give me nothing. He said they would
not trade it for another tank, or make one dollar worth of adjustment in the
price.
I went it to place two. The guy said, yeah, they still see them every once
in a while, and they are considered a find that is worth $150 that can be
had for free if they can get it from you. They told me to take it home, and
grind all the rust and grunge and letters off around the collar, and bring
it back, and for $12 for hydro and the price of the fill, they would swap it
for another.
I told him that I had used it for cutting, and that I did believe that it
was oxygen. He gave me an OXYGEN sticker he said to slap on the bottle. He
said he was only doing it because it had 800# pressure in it. He said if it
came into the loading dock without a sticker, and with no pressure, it would
be treated as an unknown quantity, and would have to be tested, purged, and
possibly the tank would have to be rolled.
I asked him why he would do this, and the other company wouldn't. He said,
"I can't answer that, you will have to." Well, for me, it is a decent
enough solution. I was not grinding off the letters on a company that was
currently in business and that I knew owned the bottle. When the lease goes
out on one bottle I currently have with that company, I am going to return
it with a letter to corporate explaining why I will not be doing ANY
business with them. I had done nearly $5,000 worth of business with them
the year of this incident.
I think those little stickers (pieces of paper with glue on one side) are
also available in MEDICAL OXYGEN and would not be hard to locate and
reliable cylinders.
Look! It's official. It has a piece of paper on it. It HAS to be MEDICAL
OXYGEN.
Unless one has the really spendy test equipment, you don't know what you
have. Oxygen to me would tend to be more likely to be pure, as mixing
contaminants would produce an explosive situation, and I really don't think
that most people would take the chance.
I'm still interested in seeing the answer to Ed's question on what test
equipment that guy uses to make sure they have medical oxygen. Maybe they
just look at that paper sticker for quality control.
Steve
visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book
basshamme...@gmail.com
> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
> oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
> would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
> to supplement breathing / respiration ?
micky
wrote:
>On Friday, June 18, 2010 9:58:42 PM UTC-4, Some Guy wrote:
>> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
>> oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
>> would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
>> to supplement breathing / respiration ?
or 4 minutes, I'd stop, at least for a while.
>
>If there is a difference between welding oxygen and medical Oxygen,
welding oxygen wouldn't be so bad in an emergency.
H.o.m.e.G.u.Y
> Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
> oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc,
> that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous)
> for helping to supplement breathing / respiration ?
> If there is a difference between welding oxygen and medical Oxygen,
> can anyone prove to me the difference, if it's just a tag, that is
> not proof, Talk is not proof, Just answer the question if you know
> for sure....
years ago?
Do you think I still need to know the answer today?
> Injection-Info:
> glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com;
So now I get to ask you a question.
Now that you've seen how stupid it makes you appear, why do you insist
on experiencing usenet through the absolutely lame and broken
google-groups interface?
> posting-host = 107.9.175.62
Mansfield Ohio?
Or Cleveland?
Stormin Mormon
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Oren
<H.o...@g.u.y.c.o.m> wrote:
>
>> posting-host = 107.9.175.62
>
>Mansfield Ohio?
>
>Or Cleveland?
Boy.
Let the American help you out, homey boi.
Mansfield, Ohio
Need the GPS coordinates?
I'll note you used another nym back then.
JAS
welding tanks to medical cust., they used a medical regulator and a
medical humidifier. Of course that was in the early 60's.
Pete C.
purity standard for welding O2 is tighter than that for medical O2.
Ultimately, except for the "analytical grade" all of them come from the
exact same cryo tank of O2 at the filling station.