Particle board in counters?
Bill
talked to somebody in a booth selling counter
tops. I need my kitchen counters replaced and
just want formica, nothing real fancy. When I
talked to him I told him I would like to have
plywood for the tops under the formica, because it
is more water resistant. He told me they normally
don't do that, it would cost more and they would
not guarantee it. Anyway, he says that particle
board is better than plywood because it is more
dimensionally stable, and that it was originally
developed for countertops. He claims that
particle board works just fine as long as it is
installed properly.
So, does anybody have any good information in
regard to the relative merits of plywood and
particle board as a substrate for counter tops?
Thanks,
Bill Gill
-G.
much better surface for the glue to adhere, as well.
Bill wrote:
--
Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.
Eric Tonks
the faucet or sink edge, it will start to break down and go mouldy. I have
seen some that only the laminate was left around the tap.
"Bill" <gi...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:3C8A19B7...@swbell.net...
TinMan1332
Before particle board, all laminate tops were plywood. I've never come arcoss
an old top that was warped. All tops need to be scecured to the cabinets at
key points which makes them even more stable. A good plywood top has a
substantial build up (two layers or 3/4 ply) and is constructed of voidless
cabinet grade ply. when properly secured, there is no warping.
Particle board can be damaged by plumbing leaks, steam, humidity and can swell
at seams do to poor installation. Plywood does indeed last longer with less
problems. Any shop or business making counter tops in volume should offer both
materials as a substrate. When the materials are bought in volume, there is
only a $10 to $15 total cost difference for the average size kitchen using
plywood vs particle board.
I have seen so many particle board counter top failures that since 1990, that I
will only build a particle board top if the customer insists. Otherwise, all
are plywood. BTW, particle board is more likely to sag if poorly supported.
Stick to your guns and go elsewhere to get what you want without having to
listen to some song and dance about why the manufacturer wants to use a cheaper
material.
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
>
>When I talked to him I told him I would like to have
>plywood for the tops under the formica, because it
>is more water resistant. He told me they normally
>don't do that, it would cost more and they would
>not guarantee it. Anyway, he says that particle
>board is better than plywood because it is more
>dimensionally stable, and that it was originally
>developed for countertops. He claims that
>particle board works just fine as long as it is
>installed properly.
Personally, I agree with him, though I do see some benefits to plywood.
HOWEVER, you should stick with what is important to you. He is in the
business of selling countertops and in his shop, plywood is not used, so
he will give you the whole nine yards as to why you should not think that
plywood is better than particle board - and maybe go so far as to try to
convince you that it is worse!
Case in point (I hope this doesn't take the discussion too far off topic!)...
I am very big on using the "clip-on" hinges for cabinet doors. There are
many manufacturers like Blum, but I'm not really big on the name as the
design. The ones where the door can be installed and removed without a
screwdriver (after the hinges are on the door and the hinge plate are on
the cabinet) is what I am talking about.
I renovated my parents' kitchen a few years back about a year after doing
my own. They were having a cabinet shop build the cabinets and I had a chat
with the cabinet builder about hinges. He basically pooh-poohed the clip-ons
and gave several reasons why the others were just as good if not better.
If it were my kitchen, I would have said good-bye (I'm going through this
process for a new home right now!). Among all the pros and cons the one that
comes to mind the most is that for the seven years we continued to live
with our renovated kitchen, I never once had to adjust a door. I cannot say
the same for my parents' kitchen.
Getting back to the point of this thread: set YOUR standards and STICK to
them! When someone is trying to convince you to change your mind, consider
where they are coming from: if they don't have an interest in selling you
something, you should take their word a little more seriously than someone
who is trying to sell you the item they are trying to make you change your
standards about.
--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban
DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting
Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap."
http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | -- John Oakley, radio talk-show host
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Tony Hwang
Hi,
Also PB comes in different density.
Talking about moisture, plywood can be damaged by water, not only PB.
No matter what material, good workmanship plays a great deal.
I never let stranger do anything around my house or car or whatever.
Tony
TinMan1332
Here we go <G>.
>I am very big on using the "clip-on" hinges for cabinet doors. There are
>many manufacturers like Blum, but I'm not really big on the name as the
>design. The ones where the door can be installed and removed without a
>screwdriver (after the hinges are on the door and the hinge plate are on
>the cabinet) is what I am talking about.
>I renovated my parents' kitchen a few years back about a year after doing
>my own. They were having a cabinet shop build the cabinets and I had a chat
>with the cabinet builder about hinges. He basically pooh-poohed the clip-ons
>and gave several reasons why the others were just as good if not better.
>If it were my kitchen, I would have said good-bye (I'm going through this
>process for a new home right now!). Among all the pros and cons the one that
>comes to mind the most is that for the seven years we continued to live
>with our renovated kitchen, I never once had to adjust a door. I cannot say
>the same for my parents' kitchen.
The hinges you describe (and Blum is my choice) are an excellent design. Your
right about how stable the design is. I can't imagine why a shop would prefer
the any other design unless they just like doing things the slow, hard way and
like to make follow-up calls just to readjust a hinge or two.
Bill
better, just wanted to get some more input on it.
Bill Gill
Jim Yanik
<BVqi8.17524$N7.38...@ruti.visi.com>:
My apartment had the cabinet under the kitchen sink *collapse* after the
disposal rusted out and leaked,soaking the particleboard. It caved in,and
crumbled.Also,the laminated doors and drawers swelled from moisture
absorbtion at the seams of the laminate.Cabinets near water sources should
NOT be made of particleboard,IMO.
--
Jim Yanik,NRA member
remove X to contact me
C. Brunner
>I just got back from the spring home show and
>talked to somebody in a booth selling counter
>tops. I need my kitchen counters replaced and
>just want formica, nothing real fancy. When I
>talked to him I told him I would like to have
>plywood for the tops under the formica, because it
>is more water resistant. He told me they normally
>don't do that, it would cost more and they would
>not guarantee it...
[snip]
We had a custom cabinet-maker build our kitchen cabinets 3 years ago,
and we said we didn't want a speck of particle board in them. He
eagerly agreed, being much more fond of high-quality hardwood plywood
etc. than particle board or MDF anyway.
But he warned us that the countertop "underlayment" (?) would have to
be particle board, because that was what Wilsonart required. We had
picked out a Wilsonart (formica-type) countertop surface, and the
cabinet maker said Wilsonart would not guarantee their product unless
it was placed on a particle board (not plywood) base. He assured us
he would seal everything well, and we haven't had any problems with
leaks or swelling (yet).
C. Brunner
TinMan1332
>be particle board, because that was what Wilsonart required. We had
>picked out a Wilsonart (formica-type) countertop surface, and the
>cabinet maker said Wilsonart would not guarantee their product unless
>it was placed on a particle board (not plywood) base. He assured us
>he would seal everything well, and we haven't had any problems with
>leaks or swelling (yet).
Where do some of these guys come up whith this stuff? I find it interesting
that the largest distrubitor of Wilsonart (in my state) has their own custom
counter top production facility. You get the exact same warranty (of the
laminate) when you purchase a top constructed on particleboard or on voidless
shop grade birch.
High pressure laminate acceptable substrates are: Solid wood, voidless shop
grade plywoods, particle board and MDF. I have never had a laminate problem or
failure associated with making a top of plywood (nor have I heard of one).
I've seen all to many premature failures from particle board laminated tops.
Chris Perdue
>
>Where do some of these guys come up whith this stuff? I find it interesting
>that the largest distrubitor of Wilsonart (in my state) has their own custom
>counter top production facility. You get the exact same warranty (of the
>laminate) when you purchase a top constructed on particleboard or on voidless
>shop grade birch.
>
>High pressure laminate acceptable substrates are: Solid wood, voidless shop
>grade plywoods, particle board and MDF. I have never had a laminate problem
>or
>failure associated with making a top of plywood (nor have I heard of one).
>I've seen all to many premature failures from particle board laminated tops.
>
>
>
>
>
>
the reason most countertop producers use particle board is because it is very
dense, excellent structural stability, and is very porous which helps with the
bond to the mica......any substrate you mentioned except solid wood can and
will fail if exposed to repeated wet and dry cycles, or to solvents getting
into the wood and loosening the glue used in the manufacture of the
material.....i install countertops on a regular basis and it all comes down to
keeping water away from the board....sealing all mitre and butt joints with
sealant and making sure the sink is sealed......people think plywood is a
better alternative to particle board but don't realize that repeatedly wetted
and dryed the plys of plywood will separtate and peel just as particle board
will swell....
just my experience
chris