Filling in door mortise hole: HOW?
Jerry Fountain
Ok all you wood workers. My wife and I just purchased a house with a nice
but old door. It has a mortise style lock in it. We would like to keep the
door, but have only a few choices.
1. Replace the old mortise lock with a newer one. One kind soul pointed
out that Baldwin carried mortise locks, but they are pretty pricy
(close to $200 over and above the price of the normal Baldwin lock).
2. Put one of those ugly brass plate converter kits on it. Basically a
metal U-shaped plate that wraps around where the mortise was and
strengthens the door in that (now weak) area. Fine for a commercial
setting but out of place on our front door.
3. Filling the old mortise hole in a way that will maintain the strength
of the lock area. We can then install a less expensive regular door
fixture (that *will* cover the old small, and now patched holes). This
seems the "best" option of the three.
Now to fill the hole I was thinking of a mixture of shavings and some epoxy.
Alas, I don't know if this will set up properly nor what ratio of materials
would be the strongest (or even if it will be strong enough!). Any ideas or
suggestions would be appreciated.
Also, if you hit down this far, are there any good suggestions for
correcting some minor warpage in the door? It is a solid, hardwood door but
it bows out almost 1/4" at the top edge. Is there any recommended way of
fixing this?
Thanks in advance,
Jerry
--
Jerry Fountain | Laboratory for Fluid Mechanics, Chaos, and Mixing
g...@chem-eng.nwu.edu | Northwestern University
(847) 491-3555 (Office) | Department of Chemical Engineering
(847) 491-3728 (FAX) | 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL 60208
Mitch Favreau
In article <4nd88a$j...@news.acns.nwu.edu> Jerry Fountain,
g...@jules.chem-eng.nwu.edu writes:
>Ok all you wood workers. My wife and I just purchased a house with a nice
>but old door. It has a mortise style lock in it. We would like to keep the
>door, but have only a few choices.
>
> 1. Replace the old mortise lock with a newer one. One kind soul pointed
> out that Baldwin carried mortise locks, but they are pretty pricy
> (close to $200 over and above the price of the normal Baldwin lock).
>
> 2. Put one of those ugly brass plate converter kits on it. Basically a
> metal U-shaped plate that wraps around where the mortise was and
> strengthens the door in that (now weak) area. Fine for a commercial
> setting but out of place on our front door.
>
> 3. Filling the old mortise hole in a way that will maintain the strength
> of the lock area. We can then install a less expensive regular door
> fixture (that *will* cover the old small, and now patched holes). This
> seems the "best" option of the three.
>
>Now to fill the hole I was thinking of a mixture of shavings and some epoxy.
>Alas, I don't know if this will set up properly nor what ratio of materials
>would be the strongest (or even if it will be strong enough!). Any ideas or
>suggestions would be appreciated.
>
>Also, if you hit down this far, are there any good suggestions for
>correcting some minor warpage in the door? It is a solid, hardwood door but
>it bows out almost 1/4" at the top edge. Is there any recommended way of
>fixing this?
>
If you really want to keep the door, you might reconsider a new or
rebuilt mortise lock, will cost more up front, but will save you alot of
agravation. If you want to patch the door you will need to use a
piece(s) of solid wood (same species as the door), your filler idea would
be a disaster. It would not expand and contract with the rest of the
door and would be a bitch to drill out for the new lockset (not to
mention the dificulty in getting that thick an application of epoxy to
cure evenly. If the door is also warped, and it doesn't have historical
value (ie, your doing all this to save a few bucks), then scrap it and
buy a new door.
In the long run, I think you would be happier with a new motise lock.
Mitch
expensive is once, cheap is forever
Jerry Fountain
In article <4ndkm3$p...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
Mitch Favreau <Mitch_...@tikal.biosci.arizona.edu> wrote:
>If you really want to keep the door, you might reconsider a new or
>rebuilt mortise lock, will cost more up front, but will save you alot of
>agravation. If you want to patch the door you will need to use a
>piece(s) of solid wood (same species as the door), your filler idea would
>be a disaster. It would not expand and contract with the rest of the
>door and would be a bitch to drill out for the new lockset (not to
>mention the dificulty in getting that thick an application of epoxy to
>cure evenly. If the door is also warped, and it doesn't have historical
>value (ie, your doing all this to save a few bucks), then scrap it and
>buy a new door.
The new door would run about $500 minimum for equivalent quality and
probably a bit more. Being old is not it's problem. The lock is not really
secure enough for our taste. The mortice lock is an extra $200 over the
base handle set (which we would need even with the new door). So we are
looking at:
a) Replacing the entire door (at least $500 more than "now")
b) Using a new mortise lock (+$200)
c) A rebuilt or refurbished mortise (good possibility if we can find a
nice one)
d) Fill in the old mortise. The expansion issue is one I had not
considered. I figured it would be hard to recut the new openings for
the new lock so that is not too bad of an issue. There is no cosmetic
problems with filling it (the strike and new set would cover it
completely).
>In the long run, I think you would be happier with a new motise lock.
Sigh. I fear you might be correct. But our cash burn rate is high enough
with the house that we are weighing all the possibilities. We did budget in
a good size fudge factor on our repair budget so we can handle it, but no
need to spend what you don't have to.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Mitch Favreau
In article <4ndsa4$2...@news.acns.nwu.edu> Jerry Fountain,
g...@jules.chem-eng.nwu.edu writes:
> d) Fill in the old mortise. The expansion issue is one I had not
> considered. I figured it would be hard to recut the new openings for
> the new lock so that is not too bad of an issue. There is no cosmetic
> problems with filling it (the strike and new set would cover it
> completely).
I guess I'm confused. What I think of as a mortise lock is quite a large
chunk of iron work that is about 3/4" to an 1" thick, 3 1/2" to 4" wide
and 6-7" tall, with both a spring catch and a deadbolt. This slips into
a large mortice in the door, hard to cover up with a modern lockset and
strikeplate.
Well, all that aside, if the mortice in the door is in good shape and
cleanly cut, then your best bet is to cut a wood patch to fill the
mortice as tightly as you can, use the same species if possible and
orient the grain in the same direction. Glue it in with epoxy, then if
neccesary, drill clean, oversized holes on the surfaces to cleanup the
old handle holes and again cut and glue in patches. Then drill for the
new lockset. The warp is not easily correctible, 1/4" not bad enough to
worry about.
The original point I was trying to make was that if you might say to
yourself "I wish I could have put in a mortise lock" everytime you open
that door for the next 10 years, then spending a little more right now
will seem unimportant in a short while (and I do speak from personal
experience on this one).
If the current lock is functional, maybe try to live with it for a little
while, until you feel you can afford a new mortise lock. I would sweat
the security quite so much, any thief who really wants to get into your
house WILL get in. One new lockset isn't going to make much difference.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
Mitch
Mitch Favreau
In article <4nfmd4$c...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> Mitch Favreau,
Mitch_...@tikal.biosci.arizona.edu writes:
>while, until you feel you can afford a new mortise lock. I would sweat
>
oops, WOULDN'T sweat
Steve Masticola
g...@jules.chem-eng.nwu.edu (Jerry Fountain) writes:
>Ok all you wood workers. My wife and I just purchased a house with a nice
>but old door. It has a mortise style lock in it. We would like to keep the
>door, but have only a few choices.
Well, here's my idea. What you need to do is to make a Dutchman
patch. You'll need a router, a bit of wood that matches the door, an
inlay bit and bushings for the router, and a mortising jig.
Make a square mortise in the edge of the door, a little longer than
the present mortise hole and maybe the width of the door minus 1/2".
Plane a square piece of wood to thickness (as a tenon) and glue it in
as fill. Observe grain direction. Clamp and let dry.
Plane another piece of wood to 5/16" thickness. This will be the
Dutchman patch. Cut the patch from this wood, and its negative in the
door, using an irregularly-shaped Masonite template and the router and
inlay set. Glue in the patches and clamp. Let dry. Plane and sand
flat. Finish.
>Also, if you hit down this far, are there any good suggestions for
>correcting some minor warpage in the door? It is a solid, hardwood door but
>it bows out almost 1/4" at the top edge. Is there any recommended way of
>fixing this?
Oh. It's warped, too. Throw it out and spring for a new door. This
is starting to be waaaaaaaay more trouble than it's worth. Unless you
really, really, REALLY like the door. :-)
Otherwise, the only way I can think of is to plane the warp out of it.
You won't have much door left after you're finished that, though.
- Steve (mast...@scr.siemens.com).
Steve Masticola
I wrote:
: Plane another piece of wood to 5/16" thickness. This will be the
: Dutchman patch. Cut the patch from this wood, and its negative in the
: door, using an irregularly-shaped Masonite template and the router and
: inlay set. Glue in the patches and clamp. Let dry. Plane and sand
: flat. Finish.
Dumb of me... if you set the router depth to the thickness of the
patch, there's no need for plan(n)ing.
- Steve "Pas me the faux, please" mast...@scr.siemens.com.
Clint Wolff
Jerry Fountain wrote:
>
> Ok all you wood workers. My wife and I just purchased a house with a nice
> but old door. It has a mortise style lock in it. We would like to keep the
> door, but have only a few choices.
> 3. Filling the old mortise hole in a way that will maintain the strength
> of the lock area. We can then install a less expensive regular door
> fixture (that *will* cover the old small, and now patched holes). This
> seems the "best" option of the three.
>
> Now to fill the hole I was thinking of a mixture of shavings and some epoxy.
> Alas, I don't know if this will set up properly nor what ratio of materials
> would be the strongest (or even if it will be strong enough!). Any ideas or
> suggestions would be appreciated.
Your best bet would be to square up the hole using some SHARP wood chisels
without damaging the veneer, and glue a precut block of wood that fits tightly
into the hole. I.E. replace the existing solid core with a new one in this area.
This gives a good solid volume to drill for a new lockset.
About straightening a warped door, I don't know if it's possible. You can try
supporting it on either end with sawhorses, and stacking some weight in the
center, but this could take a long time and might not fix it.
Also, you could turn the door around so the inside was out and vise-versa. If it
was weather that caused the warpage to begin with, it my reverse the process
over time.
The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
Charles Ring
Steve:
The technique you describe is a great one and has worked for me
countless times, since I am often faced with a portion of a knot on the
edge of a workpiece, or close to the edge and unsound, or any other
like situations. For anyone who would want to pursue additional
information regarding this and complimentary routing they could try
Rodales, Woodworking With The Router and various articles in previous
issues of Fine Woodworking. By the way, I don't see anything wrong with
making the thickness of the patch a little thicker than the recess, once
you insert it, if it is thicker it can then be planed or otherwise
dressed down(didn't want to come right out and say the sanding word)
Neanders lurking about, you know! Easier to take off than to add to.
C.E."Chuck"Ring
Madera Encantada "Enchanted Wood"
e-mail to:Cr...@concentric.net
Jeff Lang
g...@jules.chem-eng.nwu.edu (Jerry Fountain) wrote:
>In article <4ndkm3$p...@news.ccit.arizona.edu>,
>Mitch Favreau <Mitch_...@tikal.biosci.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>>If you really want to keep the door, you might reconsider a new or
>>rebuilt mortise lock, will cost more up front, but will save you alot of
>>agravation. If you want to patch the door you will need to use a
>>piece(s) of solid wood (same species as the door), your filler idea would
>>be a disaster. It would not expand and contract with the rest of the
>>door and would be a bitch to drill out for the new lockset (not to
>>mention the dificulty in getting that thick an application of epoxy to
>>cure evenly. If the door is also warped, and it doesn't have historical
>>value (ie, your doing all this to save a few bucks), then scrap it and
>>buy a new door.
>
>The new door would run about $500 minimum for equivalent quality and
>probably a bit more. Being old is not it's problem. The lock is not really
>secure enough for our taste. The mortice lock is an extra $200 over the
>base handle set (which we would need even with the new door). So we are
>looking at:
> a) Replacing the entire door (at least $500 more than "now")
> b) Using a new mortise lock (+$200)
> c) A rebuilt or refurbished mortise (good possibility if we can find a
> nice one)
> d) Fill in the old mortise. The expansion issue is one I had not
> considered. I figured it would be hard to recut the new openings for
> the new lock so that is not too bad of an issue. There is no cosmetic
> problems with filling it (the strike and new set would cover it
> completely).
>
>>In the long run, I think you would be happier with a new motise lock.
>
>Sigh. I fear you might be correct. But our cash burn rate is high enough
>with the house that we are weighing all the possibilities. We did budget in
>a good size fudge factor on our repair budget so we can handle it, but no
>need to spend what you don't have to.
>
>Thanks for the suggestions!
>
>Jerry
>--
>Jerry Fountain | Laboratory for Fluid Mechanics, Chaos, and Mixing
>g...@chem-eng.nwu.edu | Northwestern University
>(847) 491-3555 (Office) | Department of Chemical Engineering
>(847) 491-3728 (FAX) | 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL 60208
In the Detroit area there is a program on the local PBS station called
The 21st Century Wood Doctor. The host of that program spends a great
deal of time making wood repairs that require filling. He uses a two
part epoxy putty product designed for the purpose. He has filled
large size holes with this stuff and has never mentioned any issues
regarding expansion/shrinkage.
You can write the program host for product information. The address is
provided at the end of the program. Unfortunately, I will not be able
to watch the program and obtain the address this weekend. If you are
interested, e-mail me for the phone number of the PBS station. I am
sure they can put you on the right track.
Jeff
Dorsey Hudson
A good substance for filling in holes is Bondo, which is what they use in
auto body repair. It's hard, it sets up quickly, and it doesn't shrink. Can
be sanded and painted. Available almost anywhere.
==================================<< >>===================================
Dorsey Hudson in Dors...@orci.com
Denver, Colorado USA Fax:(303) 504-9817
Steve Reynolds
end. I placed some scrap luan plywood over the openings on the side. I then
filled the mortise opening with a "water putty" made by "Durham". It is a
dry powder that is mixed with water to a consistency of peanut butter. It
sets quickly, does not shrink, and is very hard. I drilled out the door for
a dead-bolt lock and installed it. Have had no problems whatsoever. I did
not remove the outside or inside handle. The outside handle worked just fine
as it was. The inside handle was a part of the mortise lock and needed some
modification. I bolted it to the estucheon plate and screwed the plate to
the door. It is now a dummy handle. These are available from hardware
stores, but not in the nice solid brass that the original was.
Regards,
Steve
Phil Landis
In article <DrIKs...@scr.siemens.com>, mast...@scr.siemens.com (Steve
Masticola) wrote:
>g...@jules.chem-eng.nwu.edu (Jerry Fountain) writes:
>
>>Ok all you wood workers. My wife and I just purchased a house with a nice
>>but old door. It has a mortise style lock in it. We would like to keep the
>>door, but have only a few choices.
>
>Well, here's my idea. What you need to do is to make a Dutchman
>patch. You'll need a router, a bit of wood that matches the door, an
>inlay bit and bushings for the router, and a mortising jig.
>
>Make a square mortise in the edge of the door, a little longer than
>the present mortise hole and maybe the width of the door minus 1/2".
>Plane a square piece of wood to thickness (as a tenon) and glue it in
>as fill. Observe grain direction. Clamp and let dry.
>
>Plane another piece of wood to 5/16" thickness. This will be the
>Dutchman patch. Cut the patch from this wood, and its negative in the
>door, using an irregularly-shaped Masonite template and the router and
>inlay set. Glue in the patches and clamp. Let dry. Plane and sand
>flat. Finish.
>
>>Also, if you hit down this far, are there any good suggestions for
>>correcting some minor warpage in the door? It is a solid, hardwood door but
>>it bows out almost 1/4" at the top edge. Is there any recommended way of
>>fixing this?
>
>Oh. It's warped, too. Throw it out and spring for a new door. This
>is starting to be waaaaaaaay more trouble than it's worth. Unless you
>really, really, REALLY like the door. :-)
>
>Otherwise, the only way I can think of is to plane the warp out of it.
>You won't have much door left after you're finished that, though.
>
>
>- Steve (mast...@scr.siemens.com).
Steve,
Just yesterday, a professional door installer found it necessary
to completely redo the lock mortises in my door frame. He was
installing a new exterior garage door for me.
This man does NOTHING else, for a living, but install doors for
people (under contract to Home Depot).
He simply filled the old mortises with Bondo and, when it set up,
he drilled and mortised new holes. He said that this is ONE thing
that Bondo does really well.
I hope that this info will be of some use. The problems are not
EXACTLY identical.
Best wishes,
--
Phil Landis | "The world has enough for everyone's need,
pla...@iu.net | but not enough for everyone's greed."
On the Space Coast |
| --attributed to Mahatma Ghandi (1869-1948)
Eric w.
You can find alot of nice mortise locks for less than a Baldwin.
Personally I'd get a new mortise lock. A good mortise lock is better
than any standard lock any day.
g...@jules.chem-eng.nwu.edu (Jerry Fountain) wrote:
>Ok all you wood workers. My wife and I just purchased a house with a nice
>but old door. It has a mortise style lock in it. We would like to keep the
>door, but have only a few choices.
> 1. Replace the old mortise lock with a newer one. One kind soul pointed
> out that Baldwin carried mortise locks, but they are pretty pricy
> (close to $200 over and above the price of the normal Baldwin lock).
> 2. Put one of those ugly brass plate converter kits on it. Basically a
> metal U-shaped plate that wraps around where the mortise was and
> strengthens the door in that (now weak) area. Fine for a commercial
> setting but out of place on our front door.
> 3. Filling the old mortise hole in a way that will maintain the strength
> of the lock area. We can then install a less expensive regular door
> fixture (that *will* cover the old small, and now patched holes). This
> seems the "best" option of the three.
>Now to fill the hole I was thinking of a mixture of shavings and some epoxy.
>Alas, I don't know if this will set up properly nor what ratio of materials
>would be the strongest (or even if it will be strong enough!). Any ideas or
>suggestions would be appreciated.
>Also, if you hit down this far, are there any good suggestions for
>correcting some minor warpage in the door? It is a solid, hardwood door but
>it bows out almost 1/4" at the top edge. Is there any recommended way of
>fixing this?
>Thanks in advance,
George Butts
chuck markle
Mitch Favreau <Mitch_...@tikal.biosci.arizona.edu> wrote:
You can buy door reinfocing plates that wrap around the door over the
hole where the old lock was. The new knob and lockset attach to the
reinforcer and the reinforcer attaches to the door. $20-$40 at Lowes.
Get the right door thickness and backset for the new knob.
Chuck
00
>
~~
David Housley
Hi, Jerry
You've gotten the jist of the basic ways of doing what you want. I'll just add one or two
suggestions. Depending on the "looks" aspect, you have a few choices. If the door is painted,
or will be, you're job is easier. If it's stained, and you want to keep it that way, it gets
harder. I'm assuming you want to change to a cylinder style of lock. You can fill the cavity
with a polyester resin, like Bondo, which will be harder than the original wood, and won't
shrink. You may want to chisel out a slightly larger cavity to "lock" the patch to the door.
The best looking, although still not perfect, is to cut a "dutchman" into the surface. This is
a thin patch of wood of the same wood the door is made from.(maybe 1/4"). You put one on each
side of the hole, and glue it in place. An odd shape, like a traditional hour-glass shape, or
diamond, blends in mutch better than a square patch. You bevel the edges of the patch and the
hole at about a 45 degree angle, then glue it in place. You can plane it smooth to the surface
of the door if you leave the patch a little "proud" of the door surface. You can then
stain/paint to match. If you're painting, tou can just bring the Bondo, or use a wood putty,
to fill the surface, then plane/sand it smooth. You can then cut your hole for the new
cylinder lock. Just a thought. Good Luck!
David H.
William (Liam) Grant
OK, I may have missed something, so I'll lay the assumptions here:
1. You like the door.
2. You don't dislike the look of mortise locks, just the
security.
3. You don't mind going to a bit of trouble, just want to
avoid a huge expense.
See if the following fits. Leave the lock in place. No matter how
you patch it, it can't get a lot stronger than leaving the lock where
it is, without getting really ugly. Add a second lock shortly above
or below, making sure you are into good wood in both the door and the
frame. Either a good quality dead-bolt or drop dead-bolt. These are
easy to install and (if you go to a locksmith) pretty secure. It is
pretty common in some old neighborhoods to see two locks installed in
this manner, often with the older lock providing nothing more than a
door knob and latch.
Just make sure you get a good lock. I have seen four half-drunk
people taught to pick a cheap door-lock set (e-mail direct if you want
the name of the door-lock set. No, the instructor's name is not
available), in less than 30 seconds a piece, on their second try.
Their first try was successful, just longer. (A neighbor asked where
the lock was from. I told him it was the original house lock. He
still had the same type on his door; for about 48 hours.)
What is safe enough? Whatever it takes to get whomever to go bother
your neighbors rather than you. This is called relative security and
is really all you ever get.
--
William (Liam) Grant Gr...@itd.nrl.navy.mil
Naval Research Laboratory, Code 5541, Washington, D.C. 20375-5337
Voice (202) 767-0552, FAX (202) 767-1060
Jerry Fountain
Many thanks to the MANY people who replied to this question, both here and
via e-mail!
To summarize: We have a door with a mortise style lock. Sadly, the lock is
in poor condition but the door is nice (solid wood, heavy, etc.) We had a
few options.
1. Replace the door (Expensive to get a new "nice" door)
2. Replace just the mortise lock with a new mortise. Baldwin, and
possibly others but noone listed and brands or suppliers, carry mortise
locks. These are basically the same handleset with an additional
mortise insert. The catch is that they are about $200 more than the
normal handleset.
3. Fill in the hole left by the existing mortise and use a standard
handleset (thus saving the $200 but with more work). Our new handleset
will cover the holes in the face of the door (which are quite small).
4. Use a "conversion plate" which is simply a brass wrap around plate
which covers the old hole and is large enough to add stability for the
void beneath. It then has mounts for a standard handle and deadbolt.
We wanted use option 3. This can be done and suggestions (with people having
said they had done this or seen it done) ranged from:
o using automotive BONDO to completely fill the hole (then drill new ones)
o a wood equivalent of BONDO from Minwax
o epoxy fitting a board into the hole (same species if poossible and
matched direction on the grain, this is to match the expansion to the
old wood)
o filling the hole with a mixture of sawdust and epoxy.
o several very elegant solutions such as a Dutchmans patch (correct?) to
add a wood exterior patch in case the old hole could not be covered,
yet still have a nice wood grain for staining. These sounded very
nice, but luckily I won't have to resort to them.
In general, it can be done, but you have to be careful about expansion (and
shrinking) characteristics. I'll probably use either the Minwax "Bondo" or
epoxy fit a plug into the hole (and let the new strikeplate cover the
repair). Thanks again to all!!!