Coleman Powermate low voltage
Pumbaa
Forgive me if this post is Off Topic, I cannot seem to find any sort
of generator newsgroup, I posted this on alt.rv but I have not had any
responses...
I have a Coleman Powermate 1850 MegaPulse Generator Model PM0401853
which I am trying to help my father-in-law fix.
Unfortunatley I don't have any sort of tachometer to check the speed
but it starts easy and sounds right and I really don't feel that
there
is anything wrong with the gas motor itself.
So, I assume that my problem is in the generator side of things, it
will only give me about 90 Volts @ 60HZ. Because the Hz is right I
assume that the RPM's are correct, so why am I only getting 90 Volts?
If I manually overspeed the motor (and it really sounds like it is
running too fast when I do this) I can get 120 Volts BUT the
frequency
is about 70 Hz (which again leads me to beleive that the engine speed
is too fast). This is frustrating because if I had a bad diode or a
bad winding I would think it would not work at all. But I cannot
think of a reason that I would get low voltage at (what I assume to
be) the correct RPM.
Some research on the internet let me to un-solder the diodes on the
rotor and according to my voltmeter they are okay. What I need to
know is what Ohm readings I should get on the rotor windings as well
as on the different windings in the stator. Also, according to my
voltmeter the capacitor is okay.
The only manual I can find for this generator on the internet is the
owners manual. Anyone with a techical manual for this generator
perhaps you can help out...
Thanks in advance
Craig
** Follow UP** the folks at Powermate think it is a diode problem
(unless I am using my voltmeter wrong, I already checked them).
Steve Stone
>
> ** Follow UP** the folks at Powermate think it is a diode problem
> (unless I am using my voltmeter wrong, I already checked them).
What kind of meter are you using to measure the voltage?
Does it measure the correct voltage level from the power company?
Could the meter be confused by the saw tooth or square wave out put of
most gensets vs a pure sine wave?
Steve
HeyBub
Does the voltage remain low when connected to a load?
Chip C
And what are you using to measure the frequency? There aren't a lot of
home-handyman instruments that measure frequency. I'm also thinking
that your measurements may be misleading because of waveform.
What is it that leads you to suspect that the unit has a problem? Do
things not work when they're plugged into it?
Chip C
Toronto
Pumbaa
I'm using a Craftman Digital volt meter for the voltage. And a P3
Kill A Watt for the frequency (I don't have anything else to read
frequency)
Pumbaa
>
> - Show quoted text -
Good question. In fact the voltage reads 0 until it is connected to a
load. As I understand it, this is due to it being a brushless style
generator.
ransley
Try alt.energy.homepower many there know generators, but if its
60hz, rpm is probably correct at 3600.
Pumbaa
I'm learing a lot here, thanks for that. As for the sine-wave problems
I have no idea how to address them. I have been using a digital volt
meter to check everything (except the frequency), I have an older
analog meter that I can use if that will yeild different results. The
ONLY thing I have that shows frequency is a little electricity use
gizmo called a KILL A WATT, not as good as something else but it is
the only thing I own that shows frequency. As for things working
right, any sort of light bulb seems dim (I have been using a 300 watt
shop light for testing purposes). The generator is a brushless style
and in fact won't show any voltage until I place a load on it, so I
plug the light in one socket and my DMM probes into the other. I am
hesitant to start pluging stuff in if it is not working right, I don't
want the low voltage to dammage something (but, maybe it wont).
bob haller
>
> - Show quoted text -
the generator is probably low voltage cause engine running slow, they
are VERY noisey at running speed. frequency of square wave probably
confuses kill a watt.
I bought one of these generators for 50 bucks off craiglist for a
buddy of mine. he adjusted one govenor spring that was stretched and
it warks fine
try some standard light bulbs to test voltage.
frequency doesnt matter for most stuff but does mess with clocks etc
Stormin Mormon
volts on a digital meter. My suggestion is try a filament
lamp of some kind, or maybe a hair dryer. Old style toaster,
is also good. If the toaster works, you're likelly getting
modified sine. And the machine is OK.
I have an ETQ which has really done a good job. Never
checked the voltages. It runs a toaster (Yes, I really did
plug in a toaster, and try it.) Also runs a furnace, guy I
knew had his power out, couple years ago. The ETQ ran his
furnace nicely.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Pumbaa" <saab....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a573a3cc-8c2f-4e02...@c20g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Stormin Mormon
filament bulb. My guess is, you're over analyzing the
problem.
If you don't think you're over analyzing, I'll give you
several other options.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Pumbaa" <saab....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dbb5e1bb-ddd3-482d...@12g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
HeyBub
> Some inverters put out modified sine, which reads about 90
> volts on a digital meter. My suggestion is try a filament
> lamp of some kind, or maybe a hair dryer. Old style toaster,
> is also good. If the toaster works, you're likelly getting
> modified sine. And the machine is OK.
>
> I have an ETQ which has really done a good job. Never
> checked the voltages. It runs a toaster (Yes, I really did
> plug in a toaster, and try it.) Also runs a furnace, guy I
> knew had his power out, couple years ago. The ETQ ran his
> furnace nicely.
Ah, good catch! If the generator is putting out a modified sine wave and the
meter is measuring peak-to-peak, there's gonna be a difference.
Ulysses
"Pumbaa" <saab....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dbb5e1bb-ddd3-482d...@12g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
I typically use (used to anyway, until it said "PF" and then nothing) a Kill
A Watt to check the frequency of my generator before connecting them to my
OutBack inverter system which will refuse to connect if the frequency is out
of range (about 56-64 Hz, thereabouts). I typically set the frequency to
about 63 Hz and it generally drops to about 59-60 when a load is applied.
The generator you have is rather pathetic (I have one too) and if I recall
it only ever put out about 100 VAC at anything over about 1000 watts. If
you ask me they are lying about the output. If the diodes check out OK and
the field and stator coils are not open then I suggest increasing the engine
speed until you get 63 Hz which will probably be around 130 VAC. Until you
attach a load.
The good news is that for half the money you can get a cheap Chinese
generator (UST GG2300) that really does produce 2000 watts and lasts about
10 times as long. It's a little bit bigger and noisier though, but not real
loud.
The Daring Dufas
The frequency of the AC power is determined by the number
of poles the genset has in relation to the speed. A two
pole generator runs at 3600rpm whereas a four pole generator
runs at 1800rpm. The output voltage is determined by the field
voltage supplied by the voltage regulator. The field voltage
may only be 12 volts DC to get the generator to output 120VAC.
A small change in field voltage produces a large change in output.
TDD
Pumbaa
Thanks for all the response folks! Just to clear up some stuff, it is
a two pole rotor so I believe I need 3600 RPM. Second, (unless I am
really up in the night) there is NO inverter in this baby, it
generates AC.
It sounds like (particularly from people who have owned them) that
there may be NOTHING wrong with it which is kinda' sad. Well, I am
going to go out and tinker with it some more...
Doug Miller
Just one question: are you measuring the voltage under load, or under no load?
Pumbaa
> Just one question: are you measuring the voltage under load, or under no load?
On this gen, you don't get ANY voltage unless there is some sort of
load... I have been using a 300 Watt shop light (just 'cause it was
handy)
Pumbaa
Okay, I un-soldered the diodes and checked them one more time, good
to go. Put the whole thing back together, and fired it up.
Same problems, If I want 60Hz I get about 90 volts. If I want 120
Volts I get about 70Hz. (In my house for comparison the Kill A Watt
shows 59.9Hz and 122.0 Volts) Just to see what would work, I tried
hooking up my table saw, it took a second but it did spin up and I am
sure that baby pulls some amps! I then tried my battery charger, no
luck it would not even turn on (which is kind of the reason I want
this gen anyway). And on the 12 Volt socket I get 24 Volts!!! I'm
not out any money here, just time. But, after I burned my thumb on
the exhaust trying to tweek the rpm's I decided enough is enough. If
I had a shotgun I would end this units pain and suffering...
Thanks to everyone who posted
Craig
Ulysses
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:0LydnazOMYa6x9zX...@earthlink.com...
Why would a single phase generator be putting out a square wave? I imagine
it may be somewhat fuzzy, but I think it pretty much has to be a sine wave.
Ulysses
I actually bought a new engine for mine (the first one didn't last very
long) and it just never seemed to have enough output. I even tried
connecting it to a 4 HP Honda engine. I broke the cooling fan on the rotor
when I connected it to a 10 HP engine, just to see if the low output was due
to not enough engine power. I found another use for that Honda engine and
I'm looking for another use for the replacement engine (compressor
perhaps?). I replaced all the diodes, checked the resistors, checked the
coils, and I just can't find anything wrong with it. Come to think of it,
you may have a bad capacitor. That might cause the low frequency. Make
sure you get one with the exact same value. It should at least get a
battery charger to come on (assuming it's a high-frequency smart charger
type). Your DC voltage seems a bit high but I wouldn't be surprised to see
17 or 18 volts. For emergency battery charging only.
BTW Coleman gets about $250 for a new rotor. The cooling fan on my cheap
Chinese generator starting falling apart (at 3000 hours) and they only want
$25 for a new rotor. The whole generator usually sells for about $250 (or
less on sale). My Coleman engine only lasted about 300 hours.
Stormin Mormon
out square wave, or mod sine. It's so much easier for a
small, inexpensive generator to spin a coil, and produce
natural sine.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Ulysses" <thereal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:h1tdl4$shg$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
bob haller
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It's incredibly unlikely that a small generator would put
> out square wave, or mod sine. It's so much easier for a
> small, inexpensive generator to spin a coil, and produce
> natural sine.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> �www.lds.org
> .
>
>
> news:h1tdl4$shg$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> Why would a single phase generator be putting out a square
> wave? �I imagine
> it may be somewhat fuzzy, but I think it pretty much has to
> be a sine wave.
a buddy put several generators on a techtronics scope, none were nice
sine waves like the power company provides
Jim Yanik
news:h1ts7p$fjr$2...@news.eternal-september.org:
> It's incredibly unlikely that a small generator would put
> out square wave, or mod sine. It's so much easier for a
> small, inexpensive generator to spin a coil, and produce
> natural sine.
>
somehow someone was talking about inverters,which can either output square
wave,modified or quasi-sq.wave,or sine wave AC.
Why it came up about generators,I don't know.
An AC generator is always going to output a sine wave.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Stormin Mormon
some that have "inverter technology". Maybe the guy with the
oscilloscope is picking up some harmonics, and other noise.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Jim Yanik" <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9C34CA5589E...@74.209.136.86...
Jim Yanik
> I'd think so, at least the spinning coil ones. Honda has
> some that have "inverter technology". Maybe the guy with the
> oscilloscope is picking up some harmonics, and other noise.
>
http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/generators/content.aspx?asset=g
g_inverteradvantage
the generator makes "multi-phase AC",converts to DC,then uses an inverter
to get back to 60hz AC.
it's very possible it makes a lot of electrical noise.
Ulysses
You guys lost me. A Coleman is not a Honda inverter generator. Besides
that, Honda claims their sine wave is better than what you get from your
local utility.
Jim Yanik
news:h22p8d$ben$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>
> "Jim Yanik" <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote in message
> news:Xns9C35BF985C4...@74.209.136.87...
>> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:h20lg5$4j5$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>> > I'd think so, at least the spinning coil ones. Honda has
>> > some that have "inverter technology". Maybe the guy with the
>> > oscilloscope is picking up some harmonics, and other noise.
>> >
>>
>>
> http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/generators/content.aspx?ass
> et=g
>> g_inverteradvantage
>>
>> the generator makes "multi-phase AC",converts to DC,then uses an
>> inverter to get back to 60hz AC.
>>
>> it's very possible it makes a lot of electrical noise.
>
> You guys lost me. A Coleman is not a Honda inverter generator.
Well,the OP mentioned "inverters" and MY post questioned why an inverter
was used when the generator already makes a sine wave output.
Then someone else mentioned Honda,and I researched that to answer my own
question.
> Besides that, Honda claims their sine wave is better than what you get
> from your local utility.
>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Yanik
>> jyanik
>> at
>> kua.net
>
>
>
generating a sine wave from a DC supply requires switching large
currents.the switchuing generates harmonics.
Now,the sine wave output may be very clean and right on freq,but the
inverter's switching circuitry may radiate those harmonics,that could be
picked up by other instruments.
It takes very careful design to minimize radiated noise.
warren
I have a similar problem with my 1850 but the output voltage drops at
about 1100 watts load. The diodes appear ok, but I have no way to test
the varistors in parallel with them.
The problem started with a snapped governor lever which would have
caused very high engine speed. That would have created a very high
output voltage which I suspect could have damaged the diodes and/or
varistors causing them to fail as the load increases. I hope to replace
both and see what happens. Any thoughts?
I've put together a small page showing the repairs.
http://members.rennlist.org/warren/1850.html
Stormin Mormon
much detail and work into repairing something.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"warren" <war...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:4AB93290...@ns.sympatico.ca...
warren
Probably a good thing you didn't visit my home page... :)
mm
wrote:
>
>I have a similar problem with my 1850 but the output voltage drops at
>about 1100 watts load. The diodes appear ok, but I have no way to test
>the varistors in parallel with them.
>The problem started with a snapped governor lever which would have
>caused very high engine speed. That would have created a very high
>output voltage
Well, I never understood why, but, in automobile terms, I thought
alternators had higher output at low speeds than generators did, but
lower output at high speeds. Or that the voltage woudln't increase
that much. A) Does your Powermate use an alternator? B) Am I right
about what I thought. C) Would that make you wrong?
>which I suspect could have damaged the diodes and/or
>varistors causing them to fail as the load increases.
Did the load increase? Or did the load stay the same and output
voltage increase? But I guess the second would make the voltage
across both the dioades and the varistors increase, which is what you
had in mind. Still, would that be enough to make them fail? I guess
if they were not much better than the expected output one or both
would.
warren
produce a 60Hz output.
Under no load the output is about 120VAC. It remains relatively
constant up to about 1100 watts load. After that as the load increases
it drops considerably, down to about 90VAC with a 1300 watt load. It
should be capable of 1500 watts output continuously at 120VAC.
The governor in the engine failed and would have caused it to rev very
high at full throttle. During this time the output voltage would have
gone very high, and possibly caused damage to the diodes and/or the
varistors. These components are on the rotor, and somehow connect with
the field coils. I'm still trying to understand better how a brushless
output generator somewhat self regulates its output voltage.
I've repaired the governor problem, and the engine works well now.
However the next step is to ensure all components on the generator side
are good in order to produce the proper power output.
buckpr...@gmail.com
. i replaced it... Nothing.same thing ...no voltage. Im about to give up on it.
Terry Coombs
> I also have an 1850 coleman that i lost total A C output. I thaought it just had to be the capacitor
> . i replaced it... Nothing.same thing ...no voltage. Im about to give up on it.
needs to start the generation process . I had the same problem with a
Briggs unit a few years back .
--
Snag
Yes , I'm old
and crochety - and armed .
Get outta my woods !
Clare Snyder
wrote:
>On 5/12/2019 3:36 AM, buckpr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I also have an 1850 coleman that i lost total A C output. I thaought it just had to be the capacitor
>> . i replaced it... Nothing.same thing ...no voltage. Im about to give up on it.
>
>Flash the field windings , it's lost the residual magnetism that it
>needs to start the generation process . I had the same problem with a
>Briggs unit a few years back .
collapses the kagnetic feild causing the generator to faik to
energize. Flashing often fixes this. Shutting off loads before
shutting down the generator odten prevents the problem
Terry Coombs
get it going by plugging a drill motor into one of the outlets then
spinning that drill with another (while holding the trigger down) while
the generator is running . I already had mine partly disassembled so I
did it with a 12V battery . Been working fine ever since .