Bam! Garage door over-the-door torsion spring snapped! How to replace?

[Danny D.]

My wife heard a big snap, and when I looked, I see what happened:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11326208/img/11326208.jpg

I counted 111 coils of what seems to be 1/4 inch steel, with a set length
of 28.5 inches (but a broken untensioned total spring length of 26.75
inches).

Any suggestions for how to locate & install a new spring will be welcome.

I'm sure most will say "just pay someone" (i.e, too dangerous, too
difficult, too expensive, etc.); but that's not what this group is about.

I'll research what I can and report back but if you've actually done it
(I realize most people have NOT) ... it would be useful to get your
advice.

Note: I realize a torsion garage door spring DIY endeavor is like DIY car
alignment or like putting in automotive struts where most of the people
say it's just not worth it but almost all of those who say it's not worth
it actually have never even thought about what it really takes - nor have
they tried - and neither have they actually done it. So, their advice,
while well meant, is next to useless unless they've actually done it.

What I'm looking for is advice from someone who actually replaced their
own garage door torsion spring.

As I said, I'll do some research also - but I figured I'd try to connect
with someone who has done this already (I already know what all the rest
will say).

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 01:14:17 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> As I said, I'll do some research also - but I figured I'd try to connect
> with someone who has done this already (I already know what all the rest
> will say).

Searching alt.home.repair, I find these of import:
2/14/04 by DIY Klutz, 117 posts
Why would a garage door torsion spring break & is two better than one?

7/30/97 by David Buxton, 7 posts
garage door spring broken, is that DIY?

6/19/97 by md, 7 posts
Broken Garage Door Spring

7/13/99, by Neil W., 9 posts
Help Replace Garage Door Spring

9/6/99, by Fred and Jan Berman, 4 posts
Cost to replace garage door spring

I'll report back what I find when I read these.

[Paul Franklin]

I have done it twice and lived.

Hardest part these days is finding replacements. You used to be able
to buy at any HW store or even the Borg, but no longer, at least
around here. (N. Ohio) And the garage repair places I called wouldn't
sell to a non-pro. I ended up ordering online, and they took a week
to get. Wasn't a show stopper for me but would be for many.

You should replace both.
Get new springs that are the same length, diameter, and wire gauge.
Count how many turns it takes to unwind the unbroken spring.
Wind the new ones up a few turns less and check balance, adjust if
needed. Wind them both the same.

Get proper winding bars, wear full face protection, and don't place
yourself where you will be injured if something slips and a bar gets
thrown. Always have one bar fully engaged and go slow. Make sure the
locking bolts on the non-winding side are really tight.

Check the wire ropes and pulleys, if they need replacing, now's the
time to do it. Make sure to check the end of the wire ropes that slip
over the pin at the bottom of the door. If it's going to rust
through, that's usually where it will happen.

Coat the new springs with oil every year or two to keep them from
rusting.

Good luck and be careful.

Paul F.

[hr(bob) hofmann@att.net]

On Nov 3, 9:20 pm, Paul Franklin <pffrank...@nospam.hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Paul F.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Do you have only 1 big spring, or do you have a pair, and only 1 of
the two has broken, your description was not clear.

First, find the manufacturer of the door and go to their web site to
see what information you can get.

Then tell us approximately where you live and maybe someone on the
group knows of a spring source near to where you live.

You will need sturdy bars to wind the new spring up to the right
tension. Get ones that fit the holes in the winder easily, but not so
small that they aren't strong enuf.

Glad to see you want to try it yourself, just be careful, and get the
car way away from the garage. If something goes wrong, the winding
bars can get thrown at least 100 feet.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 01:25:27 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> I'll report back what I find when I read these.

These threads are 90% old wives tales and only 10% real data, so here's
the real data I found in the aforementioned threads.

Critical dimensions: http://www.glasscityspring.com/criticaldims.aspx
- Spring length = 28.5 inches
- Wire diameter = 0.250 inch
- Helix direction = right hand spring
- Spring ID = 2.0 inches
- Spring OD = 2 1/2 inches
- Torsion rod diameter = 1 inch OD
- Cable drum OK = 4"

Here is a DIY recommended in one of the alt.home.repair posts:
http://truetex.com/garage.htm
How I Replaced Deadly Garage Door Torsion Springs
And lived to tell the tale.
ki...@truetex.com < Richard J. Kinc >

Torsion spring formulas:
http://www.srl.gatech.edu/education/ME3110/primer/torsion.htm

Larger wire diameter lasts longer (aim is 10K cycles).
http://www.smihq.org/public/publications/encyclopedia.html

Door & Access Systems Manufacturers Association DASMA color code chart:
http://www.glasscityspring.com/dasmacolorchart.aspx

Recommended springs:
http://diygaragerepair.com/sectionalsprings.htm

Torsion springs:
http://www.garagedooropeners.net/door_springs.html
http://www.aaaremotes.com/garagedoorsprings.html
http://www.overheaddoorparts.com/Spring_chart.htm (800)829-6002
http://www.garage-door.com/SecSpring.htm
http://www.hurleyspring.com/quote/quote4.htm
http://www.jwsgaragedoor.com/springpage.htm
http://www.newcombspring.com/torsn.html
http://www.generalwirespring.com/
http://www.steelbuilding.com/doors/garage_doors.htm
http://centuryspringmfg.com/Springs/torsion_springs.html

How to stretch the life of a torsion spring:
http://www.dasma.com/articles/tech/tips38.asp

How to measure a torsion spring:
http://www.dasma.com/articles/tech/tips25.asp

Special attention for single torsion spring systems:
http://www.dasma.com/articles/tech/tips33.asp

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 19:55:46 -0700, hr(bob) hof...@att.net wrote:

> Do you have only 1 big spring, or do you have a pair, and only 1 of the
> two has broken, your description was not clear.

Only 1 spring.

[Steve B]

"Danny D." <dann...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:k74fh9$hii$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

I'm with you. I changed one myself. But I could never get it adjusted
right. Finally I called out a guy from the garage door place. He adjusted
it in about five minutes, charged me $20. Said he would have replaced the
thing for $40 labor, and the spring would have been LESS than I paid. Said
he's seen people get busted teeth, fingers, etc, trying to do it. I'll
never do it again at that price. I charge $85 an hour for my work, and I
figure I had about $200 in my time tied up. Plus the $20. Plus the spring.

Never again.

Steve

[dss]

Danny D.

Looks like you've done the research. The write-up at truetex.com is the same one I used and it covers the process well.

I took the broken spring to a local garage door shop and they sold me a couple over the counter. If you have a Menards in your area they now carry a good selection of springs. You can get the right spring by taking measurements, bringing the spring in to compare or just weigh the door.

They also have a new system that allows you to adjust the tension with a drill. It's expensive to convert a door, but it takes much of the worry out of the process.

It's not rocket science, but it is dangerous. Make sure you have the right tools and a sturdy step ladder. Think ahead, go slow, and keep your body parts away from the plane of the rods. Inspect all the other parts and replace as needed so you only have to do it once.

In my case I had a 16-foot redwood door that weighed in at several hundred pounds. I had to dismantle the whole door just to get one of my cars out of the garage to go get the new springs. My neighbor once broke a spring and a guy was there an hour later to fix it.

I'm adding a new garage on to my house this month and will be reusing my current door. Regulations prohibit anyone other than the owner from reinstalling an old door so I'll be doing it again soon. I'm retired so my time is cheap.

Good luck and be careful.

dss

[Douglas C. Neidermeyer]

If you know so little about replacing a set of garage door springs and
the dangers thereof that you're seeking advice in a newsgroup, you and
your family would definitely be better served by hiring a guy who knows
what he's doing.

However, if you're still of a mind to try it yourself, first make sure
you have very good health insurance that includes coverage for
prostheses and extended rehab. You'll also want to have a comprehensive
long term disability policy that covers loss of limb/eye-- and maybe
brain damage;-)

And finally, if you really screw the pooch while up on your rickety
ladder--have enough life insurance so that good lookin' widow of yours--
and the kids-- can survive long enough until she finds some other dude
to haul her ashes and take care of your family...


--
Don't forget to change your clocks on Saturday-- and your President on
Tuesday.
-- @deanlosal

[Art Todesco]

In my previous house I had 2 springs on a very heavy 2 car door. In the
36 years there, I can't even count the number of times the springs
broke. The 1st 3 or 4 times, I got someone to replace them. However,
for the majority of breaks, I did the replacement. I always was able to
get the springs from, of all places, Ace. The last one broke about 5 or
6 years ago and I had no problem, at that time, getting the spring at
one of the Ace stores. They are usually color coded. One of the ends
always had a spray splotch of a colored paint. I remember mine was
white. The other thing you need to know is CW or CCW winding. The 1s
time I did it it took 3 or 4 hours as I was discovering how to do it
safely. However, I think the last one took only about an hour ... it
took more time to find the spring. I would check Ace and if they don't
have them on the shelf, maybe they could order it.

[Vic Smith]

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 21:52:56 -0700, "Steve B" <ste...@gmail.com> wrote:

>

>
>I'm with you. I changed one myself. But I could never get it adjusted
>right. Finally I called out a guy from the garage door place. He adjusted
>it in about five minutes, charged me $20. Said he would have replaced the
>thing for $40 labor, and the spring would have been LESS than I paid. Said
>he's seen people get busted teeth, fingers, etc, trying to do it. I'll
>never do it again at that price. I charge $85 an hour for my work, and I
>figure I had about $200 in my time tied up. Plus the $20. Plus the spring.
>
>Never again.
>
>Steve
>

Yeah, I'd call a door guy out and maybe a couple more if I didn't like
the prices. I've adjusted them, and it's all common sense, but
finding the right replacement spring could be a hassle.
Then there's your time doing it right and safe.
Just as one data point, I had my old wood door (16' x 7', 4 section)
replaced with a metal one a few months ago. $900.
2 remotes, keypad and push button.
2 guys, maybe an hour and a half, old door hauled away.
Pow, pow, pow. New door is smooth as silk.

[Pete C.]

You can get new springs at your local Overhead Door branch or other
commercial door place. You will not find then at the big box stores due
to the safety concerns.

As for replacing them, it's a pain changing them out since you have to
release the tension on the remaining spring, slide the shaft to one side
so you can get the old springs off and the new on, making sure you put
the correct one on each side since they are not the same, get the shaft
centered up again and then tension each side the proper amount evenly.
You'll need two 1/2" dia steel bars around 2'-3' long for the
untensioning and tensioning.

The tensioning and untensioning are not fun procedures and would be best
done with two people if possible. Ensure you are positioned to the side
out of the path of the bars in case you loose your grip, something
slips, etc. and the bar comes whizzing past. You need to count the
number of turns or 1/4 turns you put on each spring to keep them even.

If you count the turns on the intact spring as you untension it, that
will give you a target tension to aim for when tensioning the new ones.
Test the door manually to determine if it is properly balanced at that
point. If the door place will replace the springs for ~$100 in labor
it's probably worth it to avoid the hassle. When I replaced the springs
on my garage door I had to do it over a couple days since the tensioning
was doing a number on my carpal tunnel.

[Smitty Two]

In article <k74fh9$hii$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

"Danny D." <dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
> Any suggestions for how to locate & install a new spring will be welcome.
>

I don't think there's a better "how to" on the topic than this one by
Richard Kinch.

http://www.truetex.com/garage.htm

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
There are quite a few Youtube demo as well. After careful prep. I did it
in one week end evening replacing springs and new set of cables.
Now I spray Liquid wrench from now and then onto springs to extend the
life of them.

[Oren]

On Sun, 4 Nov 2012 01:14:17 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>What I'm looking for is advice from someone who actually replaced their
>own garage door torsion spring.

Everything you need to know is in this link. (Includes photos)

<http://truetex.com/garage.htm>

Note that springs are color coded, so get the ones that match yours.

[hr(bob) hofmann@att.net]

> was doing a number on my carpal tunnel.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

TGhe OP siad there was only one spring, not a pair.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 08:19:08 -0500, Art Todesco wrote:

> I always was able to
> get the springs from, of all places, Ace.

We have to differentiate between the torsion springs and the extension
springs.

You can get the springs that line up along the line of travel of the door
(parallel to the car) at hardware stores - but I seriously doubt you can
get the over-the-doorway torsion springs (which are perpendicular to the
line of travel of the door) at ACE.

I'm so sure of that, I won't even look at ACE - but that's only because
I've read all that I could find on this topic.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 07:23:29 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

> I've adjusted them, and it's all common sense ...

Hmmm... In all my googling, I've never heard of 'adjusting' torsion
springs (the ones perpendicular to the travel of the door and directly
overhead as you drive into the doorway).

Are you 'sure' you adjusted a torsion spring?

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 04:31:49 -0800, dss wrote:

> Looks like you've done the research. The write-up at truetex.com is the
> same one I used and it covers the process well.

Thanks. I've been reading up on this and the truetex writeup seems to be
the best out there.

As the author said, it's no more dangerous than any other dangerous home
repair job - so I will make sure I know ALL the steps first.

It's interesting that the 20K duty cycle springs aren't appreciably more
expensive than the 10K so ... it seems ... I'll get lousy parts if I have
a professional do it (as they'll just use what's on their truck).

That's the best argument of all for doing it yourself (better quality
results)!

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 07:33:41 -0500, Douglas C. Neidermeyer wrote:

> If you know so little about replacing a set of garage door springs and
> the dangers thereof that you're seeking advice in a newsgroup

This was just the kind of useless banter that most of the other threads
I've read contained tons of.

It helps not to write well-intentioned warnings from people who have
never done the job themselves (and who would never consider doing it).

For example, the first two times I had struts replaced on my vehicles, I
heeded the warnings - and ended up with substandard struts done by
professionals - at twice the cost - all in the name of 'safety'.

Then, when I did it myself (borrowing TWO SETS of the tools from two
different Autozones because of all the dire tool-bending stories) ... I
was shocked at how simple, quick, and easy it was to compress the springs.

The moral of 'that' story is that I'd certainly recommend anyone who felt
competent to replace struts as the springs, when compressed ARE
DANGEROUS ... but the danger can be managed.

The result is BETTER STRUTS at half the cost!

I'm looking for the same thing on this garage door - hence I'm reading up
on the procedure - and - I fully understood before I asked that I'd end
up having to wade through 90% of the well-meaning safety advice coming
from people who never would even contemplate doing it - and who therefore
are of a wholly different mindset.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 09:22:23 -0500, Pete C. wrote:

> As for replacing them, it's a pain changing them out since you have to
> release the tension on the remaining spring,

There is no remaining spring. There is only one spring.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 09:22:23 -0500, Pete C. wrote:

> If the door place will replace the springs for ~$100 in labor it's
> probably worth it to avoid the hassle.

This is good advice ... but ... I fear ... the price out here, in Silicon
Valley, may be appreciably higher than that. I'm guessing around $200 but
I need to make some calls on Monday (it's Sunday right now).

The problem with the pros is they'll put on 'whatever is on the truck'
which isn't what I want. I know that from personal experience also. The
high-school graduate who replaces my spring doesn't care WHAT he puts on
as his primary concern is to get the spring off the truck and then on to
the next job.

From the readings on Truetex, I can buy a higher-than-original quality
spring (i.e., a thicker gauge) for about $30 - so that's a prime reason
for doing it myself - as 10,000 cycles is far too little for the use that
I give out of my garage door (I'd like 30,000 cycles ... but I'll settle
for 20,000 cycles).

I realized, belatedly, I need to mic the spring, as I only eyeballed it
with a rule at 1/4 inch. It matters greatly what it is (yellow paint
isn't standard for 1/4 inch so that's another indication I'm off on the
gauge).

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 09:06:48 -0800, hr(bob) hof...@att.net wrote:

> The OP siad there was only one spring, not a pair.

Yes. And the original photo in the original post showed only one spring:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11326208/img/11326208.jpg

[Meanie]

"Douglas C. Neidermeyer" <s...@arms.omega.faber.edu> wrote in message
news:k75nb6$dus$1...@news.albasani.net...

>
> If you know so little about replacing a set of garage door springs and the
> dangers thereof that you're seeking advice in a newsgroup, you and your
> family would definitely be better served by hiring a guy who knows what
> he's doing.
>
> However, if you're still of a mind to try it yourself, first make sure you
> have very good health insurance that includes coverage for prostheses and
> extended rehab. You'll also want to have a comprehensive long term
> disability policy that covers loss of limb/eye-- and maybe brain damage;-)
>
> And finally, if you really screw the pooch while up on your rickety
> ladder--have enough life insurance so that good lookin' widow of yours--
> and the kids-- can survive long enough until she finds some other dude to
> haul her ashes and take care of your family...
>
>

Such an upbeat and positive statement. You must be a motivational speaker.
(sarcasm off)

As it's stated, "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything"

Perhaps you're a weak and timid consumer who pays to have all work performed
on your home, but there are many of us who have general common sense and
logic, along with patience to do work ourselves. Many people, including
myself, have taken on the heavy and/or more riskier task of repairs and have
turned out fine along with gaining a new experience.

Your negative comment about the OP hurting/killing himself is moronically
presumptuously ascertain. Perhaps it's an invidious conclusion on your part,
but don't be an ass to someone who can most likely tackle the job just
because you can't.

[Meanie]

"hr(bob) hof...@att.net" <hrho...@att.net> wrote in message
news:e57abefd-d08d-438a-84ae-

TGhe OP siad there was only one spring, not a pair.

It is best to replace "both" if one breaks.

[Vic Smith]

Yep. It goes like this, but slower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asYaG1-CcN0

You '"adjust" because of layers of door paint adding weight, or the
springs weakening. I've done it on both garages I've owned.
I'm thinking of adjusting my brand new door. I lifted it with the
opener detached, and think it's way too heavy Too much strain on the
opener.
Maybe they want repeat opener business, or maybe they just know more
than me.
Anyway, if I do it I'll do it like I've done it before. Tighten each
spring a quarter turn until the door lifts off the floor, then back
off until the door goes back on the floor. Worked for me.
You should get winding bars if you do it.
I used big screwdrivers, but I'm real strong. And careful.

[Meanie]

"Danny D." <dann...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:k74fh9$hii$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> My wife heard a big snap, and when I looked, I see what happened:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11326208/img/11326208.jpg
>
> I counted 111 coils of what seems to be 1/4 inch steel, with a set length
> of 28.5 inches (but a broken untensioned total spring length of 26.75
> inches).
>
> Any suggestions for how to locate & install a new spring will be welcome.
>
> I'm sure most will say "just pay someone" (i.e, too dangerous, too
> difficult, too expensive, etc.); but that's not what this group is about.
>
> I'll research what I can and report back but if you've actually done it
> (I realize most people have NOT) ... it would be useful to get your
> advice.
>
> Note: I realize a torsion garage door spring DIY endeavor is like DIY car
> alignment or like putting in automotive struts where most of the people
> say it's just not worth it but almost all of those who say it's not worth
> it actually have never even thought about what it really takes - nor have
> they tried - and neither have they actually done it. So, their advice,
> while well meant, is next to useless unless they've actually done it.
>
> What I'm looking for is advice from someone who actually replaced their
> own garage door torsion spring.
>
> As I said, I'll do some research also - but I figured I'd try to connect
> with someone who has done this already (I already know what all the rest
> will say).

You've received good advice from most as well as found a good tutorial.
Therefore, I haven't much more to add with exception to the painted line on
the springs, which nobody mentioned. The painted line is straight on an
non-tensioned spring. As you apply tension, the lines obviously separate and
thus, space themselves apart. This aids in the tension of the spring. Take a
look at your unbroken spring and count the line sections. If there are 7,
for example, then you will know to turn the new spring up to roughly 7 line
sections. Not sure if I explained that well, but I hope you get it.

The overall process is not difficult, IMO, but time consuming. Take your
time and ensure everything is well tighten.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 07:47:46 -0800, Smitty Two wrote:
> I don't think there's a better "how to" on the topic than
> this one by Richard Kinch.
> http://www.truetex.com/garage.htm

Thanks Smitty Two.

I see you're a regular here so you're a voice of wisdom.

I read the entire Kinch DIY - and it resonated with the
engineer inside of me. I especially liked the part about paying
an extra $5 or $10 for a muuuuuuuuch better - read thicker gauge -
spring which would have triple the duty cycle of the cheap spring
that I'll get with the drive-by installers.

In fact, I've had the torsion springs replaced before - and -
my experience is that the uneducated but experienced guy who
replaces them cares less about giving you the right spring
than about moving on to his next paying job.

So, this is my main impetus:
a) Better spring (30K cycles would be ideal)
b) The satisfaction of learning how to do it myself
c) Ameliorating the (appreciable) risk

Searching for DIYs, I find this is an 'easier read' than Kinch's
engineering novella because this DIY reads exactly like a DIY should:

DDM Garage Doors: How to Replace Garage Door Torsion Springs
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/replace-garage-door-torsion-springs.php

On the opposite scale, these installation instructions read like,
um, like installation instructions:
http://www.clopaydoor.com/publicfiles/supplementtorsionspring.pdf

At least 'these' installation instructions are in color:
http://www.youdoitstore.net/pdf/replacetorcable.pdf

This 2-part YouTube video covers the basics in real time:
DIYClinic - Garage Door Torsion Spring Replacement (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQR0KGgXgo

DIYClinic - Garage Door Torsion Spring Replacement (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYrEBvjHb5g

Interesting, this video shows a husband & wife team doing the job
(gotta love propaganda!)
http://www.diygaragerepair.com/Install-Garage-Door-Torsion-Springs-s/470.htm

And, this DIY reads like a regular DIY (better than Truetex does):
http://www.youdoitstore.com/Garage_Door_Springs_Torsion_s/4.htm

As Kinch said, the suppliers of the torsion springs are all over
the net nowadays (his DIY was written in 2002 or so, I believe),
so it looks like I can get a 30K spring for under $40 plus shipping.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 09:01:13 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

> There are quite a few Youtube demo as well.

Thanks Tony.
I found a few YouTube videos which were helpful to understand what was a
bit obscure in the canonical Truetex DIY (see below).

Perhaps the most interesting was this video which showed
a spring breaking in front of our eyes and then repaired!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHu3JtoUhV0&feature=related

The better DIY videos seem to be here:

DIYClinic - Garage Door Torsion Spring Replacement (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQR0KGgXgo

DIYClinic - Garage Door Torsion Spring Replacement (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYrEBvjHb5g

How to install Garage Door Torsion Springs Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dio-hYjXNzg

How to install Garage Door Torsion Springs Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR4VA_Qmw4M&feature=relmfu

Here is a Sears guy (apparently) installing a torsion spring:
How To Install Garage Torsion Springs - Torsion Spring Replacement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CBkP8Q06oI&feature=related

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 08:58:06 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Everything you need to know is in this link. (Includes photos)
> <http://truetex.com/garage.htm>
> Note that springs are color coded, so get the ones that match yours.

Hi Oren,
I know you're a regular here so I appreciate the advice.
The Truetex article is great but it's a difficult read.
I prefer to read and understand everything in truetex, but, then to
follow one of the simpler DIYs to follow.

Richard wrote an engineering novella - so he deserves credit - but what
he doesn't really do is show a nice step-by-step DIY.

Luckily, those step-by-step DIYS seem to be all over the net, so I'll
watch a few dozen so that I have all the steps memorized in sequence.

One thing to be aware of though, is that the color coding is useless
according to the Truetex discussion - because they may not be following
standards.

So, I'll just trust in my mic and calipers instead of colors! :)

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 13:07:22 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

> You '"adjust" because of layers of door paint adding weight, or the
> springs weakening. I've done it on both garages I've owned.

Hi Vic,
Interesting. I see what you mean.
Thanks for edifying me.

It's amazing what the folks on a.h.r know, and it's a blessing to be able
to learn from you all!

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 13:59:40 -0500, Meanie wrote:

> Your negative comment about the OP hurting/killing himself is
> moronically presumptuously ascertain. Perhaps it's an invidious
> conclusion on your part,

Thanks Meanie for the backup, especially since I read scores of similar
admonishments in the other threads (e.g., that poster's un-clever joke
about needing health insurance was in all the threads so it's old hat by
now - even if it might have been funny the first few times it was said).

However ...

This isn't an insurance group - this is alt.home.repair - where somewhat
dangerous jobs abound (e.g., electricity, roof climbing, tree cutting,
lawnmower repair, etc.).

They just have to be approached with an open mind, an inquisitive mind,
and we have to give back to the community when we're done.

Thanks to all who contributed. It's my turn now to add value - which I
can only do once I get the parts and tools and get the job started!

[Vic Smith]

Sometimes the old farts here hire everything out, and they forgot
about when they did it themselves. Or it makes them tired just
thinking about it.
They aren't excited about doing a job. No energy except to post here.
I'm "almost" in that category.
Sometimes they parrot what they heard elsewhere.
Sometimes they just don't want somebody getting hurt from their
advice.
Sometimes they know the cost of DIY isn't worth their time.
Car exhaust work is one for me. I just don't do it. I pay up.
Roofing is another, and whole house tuckpointing.
I was going to replace my garage door myself, until I priced it out.
Glad I paid up instead of DIY. I would NOT have enjoyed DIY.
Years ago I would have relished it.
With all that in mind, good luck to you.
YOU CAN DO IT!!

[Oren]

I hear ya. I've read his pool plaster page*. I wish he had Cliff
Notes <g>

*before and after pictures - cost $502.00, a family project...

<http://www.truetex.com/pool.htm>

[The Daring Dufas]

Many of us have busted knuckles from working on things. I like to share
the pain. ^_^

TDD

[Oren]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 16:36:33 -0600, The Daring Dufas
<the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote:

>> It's amazing what the folks on a.h.r know, and it's a blessing to be able
>> to learn from you all!
>>
>
>Many of us have busted knuckles from working on things. I like to share
>the pain. ^_^

I've busted a few objects of repair, scratchin' my head, asking myself
"why did you do that?"

[gonjah]

> I'm with you. I changed one myself. But I could never get it adjusted
> right. Finally I called out a guy from the garage door place. He adjusted
> it in about five minutes, charged me $20. Said he would have replaced the
> thing for $40 labor, and the spring would have been LESS than I paid. Said
> he's seen people get busted teeth, fingers, etc, trying to do it. I'll
> never do it again at that price. I charge $85 an hour for my work, and I
> figure I had about $200 in my time tied up. Plus the $20. Plus the spring.
>
> Never again.
>
> Steve
>
>

That was about the same as my experience but I didn't even try to fix it.

Total cost $331. (Springs and install)

(Sorry about the email)

[Douglas C. Neidermeyer]

No, I do most of my own repairs and maintenance and no I'm not a
motivational speaker.

But I am a physician who-- thanks to the federal government's absurdly
low reimbursement schedules and the coming of obamacare-- needs to work
a few extra shifts to make enough money to make required payments on med
school loans. Most hospitals are always looking for game guys to staff
their ERs-- so it's easy to pick up a few extra well-paying shifts per
month.

I can't tell you how many serious injuries I've seen, set, surgeried,
sewn up, twice amputated...and once pulled the sheet up over the face of
a self-styled garage door installer with the spring installation
instructions still crumpled up in his back pocket....

But hey big guy, knock yourself out!

--
Don't forget to change your clocks on Saturday-- and your President on
Tuesday.
-- @deanlosal

[The Daring Dufas]

I bump my head more often and get knocked silly whenever I wear a hard
hat. ^_^

TDD

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 14:09:45 -0500, Meanie wrote:

> If there are 7,
> for example, then you will know to turn the new spring up to roughly 7
> line sections. Not sure if I explained that well, but I hope you get it.

That's a great hint!

A count of coils seems to indicate a 0.2375 inch wire gauge:
But, notice the last count seems oddly off (due to twist?)
Large: http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11336134/img/11336134.jpg
Small: http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11336134/640/11336134.jpg

The twist lines are faded, but I count 9 of them, in toto for the 7 foot
tall by 8 foot wide steel door, as shown below:
Large: http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11336121/img/11336121.jpg
Small: http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11336121/640/11336121.jpg

Do you also count 9? (The last one is hard to tell.)

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 13:21:12 -0800, Oren wrote:

> I hear ya. I've read his pool plaster page*.

Wow. What another novella!

I'm sure he covered EVERYTHING in there!

I could use it if/when I plaster 'my' pool - but for now, I'll stick with
the garage door spring.

BTW, it's funny that the count for 10, 20, 30 coils was consistent, but
then, on 40 coils, the count went bad.

I'm not sure why - maybe the angle of spring twist is taking effect?
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11336134/img/11336134.jpg

[Oren]

I really don't know, sorry. Wouldn't the count change after a broken
spring - maybe?

[Oren]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 18:19:11 -0600, The Daring Dufas

<the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote:

>On 11/4/2012 5:07 PM, Oren wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 16:36:33 -0600, The Daring Dufas
>> <the-dari...@stinky-finger.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> It's amazing what the folks on a.h.r know, and it's a blessing to be able
>>>> to learn from you all!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Many of us have busted knuckles from working on things. I like to share
>>> the pain. ^_^
>>
>> I've busted a few objects of repair, scratchin' my head, asking myself
>> "why did you do that?"
>>
>
>I bump my head more often and get knocked silly whenever I wear a hard
>hat. ^_^
>
>TDD

The Hillbilly school of hard knocks...

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 17:25:52 -0800, Oren wrote:

> I really don't know, sorry. Wouldn't the count change after a broken
> spring - maybe?

I think it might be due to the angle of the spring, when, all of a
sudden, it moved over by one.

That's probably why they specify 10 turns or 20 but not more than that.

[The Daring Dufas]

It happened to me more often overseas working on Core of Engineers jobs.
I wear my ball cap when I work here in the hills. I don't bump my head
nearly as much at home. ^_^

TDD

[Meanie]

"Douglas C. Neidermeyer" <s...@arms.omega.faber.edu> wrote in message

news:k76u6q$j9q$1...@news.albasani.net...

>
>
> No, I do most of my own repairs and maintenance and no I'm not a
> motivational speaker.
>
> But I am a physician who-- thanks to the federal government's absurdly
> low reimbursement schedules and the coming of obamacare-- needs to work a
> few extra shifts to make enough money to make required payments on med
> school loans. Most hospitals are always looking for game guys to staff
> their ERs-- so it's easy to pick up a few extra well-paying shifts per
> month.
>
> I can't tell you how many serious injuries I've seen, set, surgeried, sewn
> up, twice amputated...and once pulled the sheet up over the face of a
> self-styled garage door installer with the spring installation
> instructions still crumpled up in his back pocket....
>
> But hey big guy, knock yourself out!
>

...and those who can't, yet try and fail are the ones who provide you with
job security. Those of us big guys who can, will knock ourselves out and
succeed, yet don't provide you with the burden. You choose that profession,
you don't like it, get out and become a lawyer.

[Steve B]

"Oren" <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote

> I've busted a few objects of repair, scratchin' my head, asking myself
> "why did you do that?"

I'm going to the Dr. tomorrow and see if he will take my stitches out.

Steve

[Meanie]

"Danny D." <dann...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:k771d0$h6n$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

I know you said you had one spring, but for some reason I was still thinking
two and one was broken.

Since that one spring is broken, the count could be less due to the
retraction of the spring after it broke. Though, it's a good starting point
to know about where it should be, the best option is to set tension and
check the balance of the door. This may require a few times of resetting but
it's best to ensure a balanced door.

Good luck. Let us know how everything works out.
>
>

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 06:50:15 -0500, Meanie wrote:

> Since that one spring is broken, the count could be less due to the
> retraction of the spring after it broke.

I was wondering about that!

A assume that, say, there are 7 twists, when the spring breaks, it can
sprong over to, say 9.

[dss]

Danny,

The engineer inside of you is definitely showing. You're really thinking this one through. I appreciate the link to the better written DIY sites.

You're right about getting the better quality spring for more cycles. After replacing my own I find myself trying to limit the number of times I open and close it. I've caught myself getting mildly irritated when my wife wastes cycles by needlessly using the garage door.

As far as sourcing the torsion spring it sounds like you don't have a Menards in your area. Even though many garage door shops will tell you on the phone they don't sell to the public, they will if you show up at their door with the broken spring and the cash.

I've bought things a couple of times from non-retail HVAC and plumbing outlets. All you need is the broken part, some green, and a boyish grin.

Make sure you tell us how this odyssey turns out.

Good luck.

dss

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 01:14:17 +0000, Danny D. wrote:
> What I'm looking for is advice from someone who actually replaced their
> own garage door torsion spring.

OK. Thanks to you guys, I've done the preliminary research.
Now it's time to order a replacement (higher cycle) spring
and to make observations to help the next garage owner
who reads this in the future.

Since this is a replacement spring, the weight of the garage
door is not a critical factor (assuming the old spring worked).

The four replacement spring values of import are:
1.Wire gauge <== not measured directly!
2.Chirality
3.Unsprung length <== measured in two parts
4.ID of the coils <== not measured directly!

Interestingly, two of those measurements are not measured directly
because they shrink and expand over time.

See details as to what is "NOT" measured directly in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6hBJB4JheBc#t=162s

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 05:55:25 -0800, dss wrote:
> You're right about getting the better quality spring for more cycles.

Seems to me, the DIY advantage is we get BETTER springs.

> it sounds like you don't have a Menards in your area.

I'm in California. The nearest Menards is Wyoming.
http://www.menards.com/main/storeLocator.html

> I've bought things a couple of times from non-retail HVAC and plumbing
> outlets. All you need is the broken part, some green, and a boyish grin.

I understand. And I agree. I've been able to buy HVAC parts, for example,
off the shelf - but they would never order the actual compressor for me.

> Make sure you tell us how this odyssey turns out.

Half the USENET is people asking questions; the other half are the
answers to those questions! I will definitely try to inform as I learn.

For example, based on this wonderful video, it seems you do not
measure the ID and the coil thickness directly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6hBJB4JheBc#t=272s

In addition, it is good to know that every twist adds a coil of length,
and, that, for a 7-foot tall door, you have in general 7 twists.

[Danny D.]

For others to benefit, you don't have to measure the ID of the torsion
spring because it's already accurately marked on each end.

See this right-hand red cone showing DNS 200 (i.e., 2 inch ID):
LARGE: http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343509/img/11343509.jpg
SMALL: http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343509/640/11343509.jpg

And, here's the other side, showing the same designation (DNS 200):
LARGE: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343510/img/11343510.jpg
SMALL: http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343510/640/11343510.jpg

[Danny D.]

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 00:53:46 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> See this right-hand red cone showing DNS 200 (i.e., 2 inch ID): LARGE:
> http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343509/img/11343509.jpg SMALL:
> http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343509/640/11343509.jpg

I forgot to mention, the color code red 'often' means right hand
stationary cone as described in this excellent video of how to size a
torsion spring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HUQ3yzd6uBc#t=60s

BTW, if you take your right hand and point your thumb outward along the
line of the 1" hollow shaft. If the winds follow your right hand fingers,
they are wound right (as mine is).

If they follow your left hand fingers, it's a left-hand wind.

Pretty simple!

[Mark]

another option for the op

buy your own parts so you can get the better quality

hire a guy to install it and you watch him so you learn the real
tricks

DIY the next time


there is NOTHING as good as watching someone who knows what they are
doing...

Mark

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 17:41:02 -0800, Mark wrote:

> there is NOTHING as good as watching someone who knows what they are
> doing...

I might actually do that! If they let me.

BTW, look at the critter I found hanging out above the 4-inch aluminum
drum when I looked more closely at the wind-up drum just now to determine
if it truly was four inches in diameter:
LARGE: http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343612/img/11343612.jpg
SMALL: http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343612/640/11343612.jpg

Here's a closeup of the huge black widow spider next to the drum (after
spraying it with RAID):
LARGE: http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343613/img/11343613.jpg
SMALL: http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343613/640/11343613.jpg

And, here's what I was looking for at the time (APCO 400-S):
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343611/img/11343611.png

Note: The APCO 400-S (or is it 400-5?) on the drum apparently indicates a
4-inch drum. I'm not sure what the character after the dash indicates.

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:05:46 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> A little racist, but hell - I remembered.

Similar to the resistor color code ... i.e.,
... b b r our y g but v g willingly willingly ...

[SRN]

"Mark" <mako...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f51f3503-7c02-4570...@q16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

Here's a great Youtube video on changing out torsion springs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxUoJrLhaSI

[Danny D.]

I think the hardest measurement is, surprisingly, the wire gauge.

I just measured the broken spring wire gauge with a rule:
10 coils = 2 5/16", so that's 2.3125/10 = 0.231"
20 coils = 4 11/16", so that's 4.6875/20 = 0.234"
30 coils = 7 1/16", so that's 7.0625/30 = 0.235"

Then, I measured with a micrometer in 3 different places:
0.241"(http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343668/img/11343668.jpg)
0.242"(http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343670/img/11343670.jpg)
0.237"(http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343669/img/11343669.jpg)

Geez Louise. I know how to use a mic - but this wire has been stretched
at the end that I can measure.

How do I better nail down the (real) wire gauge anyway?

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:14:41 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> BTW, do you live in the Houston area by chance?

Silicon Valley.

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 20:28:11 -0600, SRN wrote:>
> Here's a great Youtube video on changing out torsion springs:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxUoJrLhaSI

Yes. I've seen that. I referenced it prior. What I LOVE about that one is
that it shows the spring breaking before our very eyes!

The thing I don't like about it is that it covers the two-spring doors,
and mine is a single spring.

I hate extrapolating when safety is a factor - but it IS a wonderful
video!

Thanks!

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 02:50:55 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> I just measured the broken spring wire gauge with a rule:
> 10 coils = 2 5/16", so that's 2.3125/10 = 0.231"
> 20 coils = 4 11/16", so that's 4.6875/20 = 0.234"
> 30 coils = 7 1/16", so that's 7.0625/30 = 0.235"
>
> Then, I measured with a micrometer in 3 different places:
> 0.241"(http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343668/img/11343668.jpg)
> 0.242"(http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343670/img/11343670.jpg)
> 0.237"(http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11343669/img/11343669.jpg)

Making things worse, this chart doesn't show ANY of those numbers!
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/80621748/Items-needed-to-calculate-replacement-springs

That chart shows:
0.2343" when 10 coils = 2 5/16" & when 20 coils = 4 5/8"
0.2437" when 10 coils = 2 7/16" & when 20 coils = 4 7/8"
0.2500" when 10 coils = 2 1/2" & when 20 coils = 5"

I hate when I don't know the exact size.
I need a better (more consistent) measurement method.

I'm guessing it's the 0.2343" gauge simply because that's the closest
using the 10+20 coil method; but it's not even close to any one
of my micrometer measurements. Sigh.

Any ideas?

[Danny D.]

Jeezus. It's amazing what you need to learn when you DIY!

Here's how I had to determine my "track radius" just now!
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11344006/img/11344006.jpg

Turns out, my 'track radius' is 15 inches.

It's needed for the spring calculator here:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/springs/standard-torsion-springs.php

To the next person, you will need these SEVEN datapoints:
1. Right hand wound
2. 2" ID
3. 0.243" wire gauge
4. 26.5" spring length (unsprung)
5. 7' door height
6. 4" drum diameter
7. 15" track radius

I entered those seven numbers, and the spring calculator found:
NOTHING!

So I changed the 26.5" to 27", and it only found a spring for a 12" track.

(I wonder: Do most of you have 12 inch tracks?)

Luckily, the chart shows "equivalent" springs for a 15" track but I was
surprised the original spring doesn't fit a 15" track.

Q: What size track do you have?

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 06:29:28 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> Q: What size track do you have?

OK. I was measuring the track radius incorrectly.

I'm supposed to measure from the BOTTOM of the track
to the bubble level as shown in this picture:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/two-spring-garage-door-spring-conversion.php

What I CLEARLY get is neither 12" nor 15", but I get 13".
There is no doubt that is the measurement done the
way explained in that document.

So that's weird!

I'm not sure how common a 13" track radius is, but, it's
going to affect what spring I get if I want to increase
the duty cycle.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 00:44:10 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> See here yet?
> http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/how-to-measure-torsion-springs.php

Interestingly, I've been on that site a lot as their DIYs
are probably the best out there - and I'm likely to buy from
them - as they're the most helpful - but - I had not been
to that particular page.

They do start out contradicting themselves somewhat though, in that
they say in that page you only need these 5 things:
(1) length,
(2) wire size,
(3) inside diameter,
(4) spring wind, and
(5) type of ends

For a proper DIY, you REALLY need to know (at least) a dozen things:
(1) length (mine appears to be 26.5")
(2) wire size (mine appears to be 0.2343")
(3) inside diameter (mine is 2" ID)
(4) spring wind (mine is wound right)
(5) type of ends (mine are standard)
(6) door height (mine is 7' tall)
(7) drum diameter (mine is 4.00 inches wide)
(8) track radius (mine appears to be 13" which is a strange number)
(9) bearing to drum distance (I can handle a 60"-18"=42" spring length)
(10) door weight (I don't know my door weight yet)
(11) twists (mine apparently was twisted 9 times)
(12) cycles (I'm aiming for 20,000 or 30,000 cycles)

I'm going to call the DDM tech support folks tomorrow to figure out
what to do about my strange track radius of 13 inches.
Tech Support: 877-436-9446 ·
Orders: 800-383-9548 / 630-293-1312

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 06:29:28 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> I entered those seven numbers, and the spring calculator found:
> NOTHING!

http://ddmgaragedoors.com/springs/standard-torsion-springs.php

I must have done something wrong the first time, because a
subsequent calculation found the existing spring listed:

$36.58 SPB-234-26-50L
ID=0.234" & LENGTH=26.5"
12" radius = 123.2LIFT & 15,000cycles
15" radius = 128.2LIFT & 13,000cycles

If I want to increase the duty cycle, I can switch to
multiple smaller shorter springs, e.g.:
$21.08 SPB-187-17-75R & SPB-187-17-75L
ID=0.187" & LENGTH=17.75"
12" radius = 62.3#LIFT & 20,000CYCLES
15" radius = 64.7#LIFT & 17,000CYCLES

Or, I can switch to a single longer spring:
$45.09 SPB-243-32-00R
ID=0.243" & LENGTH=32"
12" radius = 122.9#LIFT & 25,000CYCLES
15" radius = 127.8#LIFT & 22,000CYCLES

Or, I can switch to a single thicker & longer spring:
$51.56 SPB-250-36-00R
ID=0.250" & LENGTH=36"
12" radius = 123.3#LIFT & 36,000CYCLES
15" radius = 128.2#LIFT & 31,000CYCLES

[Vic Smith]

On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 07:48:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
>Or, I can switch to a single thicker & longer spring:
>$51.56 SPB-250-36-00R
>ID=0.250" & LENGTH=36"
>12" radius = 123.3#LIFT & 36,000CYCLES
>15" radius = 128.2#LIFT & 31,000CYCLES
>

36,000 cycles.
If open/close is 2 cycles, and you average open/close twice a day, I
come up with 24.65753424 years.
Lot's to consider there.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:11:49 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

> 36,000 cycles.
> If open/close is 2 cycles, and you average open/close twice a day, I
> come up with 24.65753424 years

Actually, 1 open and 1 close is 1 cycle ...

So, it looks like 36,000 is the way to go for trouble-free repairs.

It only costs about $15 more for the 36,000 cycles - but I'm still looking
in case there are other drawbacks other than cost (sometimes there are).

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 01:24:15 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> at $35 bucks a spring you can replace it every 15 years
> (if the door lasts that long).

I'm going to order the spring today.
Thanks for all the advice.
I'll let you know (with pictures) how it works out.

[Danny D.]

On Thu, 08 Nov 2012 15:14:07 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> I'll let you know (with pictures) how it works out.

I was hoping the spring would have arrived before
the weekend - but alas ... there won't be a garage
door spring DIY until the spring arrives.

I ordered a SPB-250-36-00R to replace my old spring.
The numbering system means:
SP=spring
B = 2 inch ID
250 = 1/4" wire gauge
36 = 36 inches long
00 = fractions over 36 (i.e., exactly 36 inches)
R = right wound

The spring itself was $51.50 and the shipping was
a whopping $22.50 plus I added the two 1/2" diameter
18" long metal bars (which cost $8 additional).

They admonished NOT using socket wrenches (3/8 open
end wrenches and vise grips were what else is needed).

Here are the particulars:
1. Old & new spring ID = 2.0 inches
2. Old & new wire gauge = 0.2343" & 0.250"
3. Old & new length = 26.5" & 36"
4. Old & new wind = right hand wind
5. Door height = 7'
6. Track radius = 13" (only affects the duty cycle)
7. Door weight = unknown
8. Ends = standard cones
9. Drum = 4.0 inches diameter
10. Bearing-to-drum distance = 60"-18"=42 inches
11. Spring stretch ~= 36" + 9 turns = 38.25 inches
12. Old & new duty cycle = ? cycles & 34000 cycles
13. Number of cycles per day ~= 2
14. Door width = 8 feet
15. Total cost (so far) ~= $75

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 00:41:31 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> The spring itself was $51.50 and the shipping was a whopping $22.50 plus
> I added the two 1/2" diameter 18" long metal bars (which cost $8
> additional).

I just found out that the winding bars are actually an outside diameter
on one side of 7/16" with the other end being 1/2". Go figure.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 00:41:31 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> Here are the particulars:
> 1. Old & new spring ID = 2.0 inches 2. Old & new wire gauge = 0.2343" &
> 0.250"
> 3. Old & new length = 26.5" & 36"
> 4. Old & new wind = right hand wind 5. Door height = 7'
> 6. Track radius = 13" (only affects the duty cycle)
> 7. Door weight = unknown 8. Ends = standard cones 9. Drum = 4.0 inches
> diameter 10. Bearing-to-drum distance = 60"-18"=42 inches 11. Spring
> stretch ~= 36" + 9 turns = 38.25 inches 12. Old & new duty cycle = ?
> cycles & 34000 cycles 13. Number of cycles per day ~= 2 14. Door width =
> 8 feet 15. Total cost (so far) ~= $75

I'm getting estimates in the $165 to $180 range for the installation
(with bar).

The door is apparently 135 pounds.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 00:07:04 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> Most installers use a cordless impact driver, with 7/16" lags.

I don't understand what a 'lag' is?

Are you talking about lag bolts?

If so, why would lag bolts be involved in switching out a broken torsion
spring?

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 01:14:17 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> I'll research what I can and report back but if you've actually done it
> (I realize most people have NOT) ... it would be useful to get your
> advice.

HERE IS A KNOWLEDGE BASE UPDATE (as promised) for ALT.HOME.REPAIR:

Perhaps the best argument 'for' a DIY repair is that we, the
homeowner, should be able to select & install the best spring for
our needs at the best price available (about $75 to $100, all told).

For example, my old 15000 cycle torsion spring is $41 at prodoorparts:
Garage Door Tension Spring 2" x .234 x 26.5" Right Wind - $40.99

But a 35000 cycle replacement torsion spring is only 20% more at $49:
Garage Door Tension Spring 2" x .250 x 36" Right Wind - $48.99

I would think we typical homeowners would opt for the latter, while a
(presumably) typical installer would opt for the former (for reasons
other than getting us the best spring & best value for our money).

One GREAT argument against a DIY repair is that the job is dangerous.
It 'is' dangerous. That's why most homeowners opt to pay about $150
to $200 (out here in the Silicon Valley anyway) to have it done.

Another argument against a DIY repair is the knowledge needed.
Luckily, replacing a garage door torsion spring is relatively
simple (it has its moment of drama though).

Nowadays, excellent DIYs abound, but the mainstream is what
I'll reference here.

The canonical DIY (a must-read novella) is by Richard J. Kinch:
http://www.truetex.com/garage.htm

However (IMHO) the 'best' (most informative) site overall is DDM:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com

There are other excellent DIY-aware sites which are already listed
in this thread so I won't repeat them in this research summary.

A second key requirement for a DIY repair is the proper tools.
The good news is that there is only one tool needed that a
typical homeowner won't already have in his toolbox.

That special tool is a set of ~18" long 1/2" diameter winding bars.

I've found that two winding bars should be around $8 for a set;
but many companies charge more than twice that; so here's a
link to the company with the most reasonable winding bar prices:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/parts/part/WB-18.html

Apparently these winding bars are often machined with a hexagonal
"grip" (reputedly so they don't easily fall out of your hand and/or
roll away on the floor) - but the ends are always circular.
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/parts/tools_support.html

For commercial you'd use larger and longer winding bars.
Residential = 18" long, 1/2" & 7/16"
Light commercial = 24" long, 1/2" & 5/8"
Heavy commercial = 36" long, 1/2" & 5/8"

Apparently 17" bars are sometimes substituted for 18"
bars merely to better accommodate shipping box sizes.

Commercial garage door torsion springs often don't come
with the cones but residential torsion springs almost
always are sold with the cones already attached.

All you really need is the following information:
1. Inside diameter (always embossed on the end cones, e.g., 2")
2. Untensioned length (you measure only the spring, not the cone)
3. Wire gauge (i.e., the diameter of the wire, e.g., 0.2343")
4. Wind direction (use the tried-and-true right-hand rule)
5. Cone type (most are 'standard' cones but oddballs exist)

There are other specifications which are important but which
are not necessary if you're simply replacing a broken spring.

I've found, by calling companies that some "salespeople" will
talk 'colors' painted on the springs and cones rather than
sizes and duty cycles when asking you for details. My advice
is to use paint color only as a doublecheck of your math
(e.g., right-wind cones are usually painted red and gold spray
on springs is sometimes an indication of the 0.250"wire gauge).

In my research, I found OLD threads where most of the thread
was from people saying it couldn't easily and safely be done as
a DIY repair. Those older threads imply it must have been harder
to come by information, springs, & calculation tools in the past.

But now it's easy to buy a single spring on the web.
It's easy to calculate alternative replacement sizes.
It's easy to buy the right tools.
And, it's easy to find excellent step-by-step DIYs on the web.

My conclusion: Times have changed!

You no longer have to impersonate a licensed technician in order
to have a single garage door torsion spring shipped to your home.

For example, here is a typical price list for a wide selection
of two inch residential garage door torsion springs to fit my door.
(remember to add about 10% CA sales tax & about $20 for shipping).
http://www.prodoorparts.com/garage-door-springs/2/

In summary, I'm looking forward to my spring arriving so that I
can attempt my very first garage door torsion spring DIY based on
the ample tutorials, suppliers, & videos extant on the web today.

[Danny D.]

> That's why most homeowners opt to pay about $150 to
> $200 (out here in the Silicon Valley anyway) to have it done.

Or more ...

By way of partial proof, here's a 'special' $200 deal for my area:
http://www.thegaragedoorstoresanjose.com/GarageDoorSpringReplacement.html
"Your garage door is the largest moving object in your house and can
be dangerous? Make sure it isn't. When looking for expert garage
door repair service in San Jose, Santa Clara, Los Gatos, Campbell,
Saratoga, Milpitas, and Sunnyvale; call us today for our $199 spring
special! 408-281-7111"

I arbitrarily called about a dozen local (408 area code) garage door
repair outfits yesterday to obtain that $150 to $200 price range.

Incidentally, I MUST say, I had the most interested phone call yesterday
to "Tiffany" at 408-335-0145 when I was shopping for local repair costs
for my research summary to you guys at alt home repair.

That outfit literally called me back twice to get my business!

First, they called back to lower the price of the service call from
$50 (just for the estimate) to $30 and to offer to refund that lowered
price service call if I got their $150 to $250 service - and then -
when I still declined, Tiffany called back today saying the new manager
just authorized her to drop the service call fee altogether.

At that point, I 'could' have taken then up on their offer (just to
get a more specific estimate for you guys) ... but ... I didn't really
want to jerk them around so I politely declined (but thanked them
nonetheless).

I mention this because many people reading this will want to have
someone do the work for them - so it's good to know you still 'can'
get a free estimate in the Silicon Valley (but only if you play their
game).

[Vic Smith]

Thanks for all the garage door spring info. Nice job.
Around here - north of Chicago suburbs - it seems most home repair
contractors do free estimates.
In fact, they PAY to give estimates if they use a referral service
like Service Magic.
They have mixed views about Service Magic, and so do I.
It does save the home owner time in finding contractors.
But in talking to some of the contractors, it works like this. If
they get the job, the SM referral fee is nothing to them, as it gets
paid out of job profit. If they don't, some resent the fee, others
just see it as a business cost. There's other issues I don't mention
now.
Anyway, although it probably pays to check around and get multiple
estimates, damn if I don't nearly always end up hiring the first guy
out. Maybe I've just been lucky, but it's worked out well.
More likely the first guy out is a hustler, does the most work, runs
his business the best, and can offer a good cost for good work.
Just guessing, but it seems to generally work that way.
Five out of six of the last jobs I contracted went to the first
bidder.
Keeping to garage doors, I was expecting to pay about $2k for a new
steel door - just going by what a workmate paid for a similar one
about 5 years ago - but the first guy I called was over here in an
hour, and bid $900. He's had a local business with a good rep for a
long time. Looked no further.
He was slow getting out to do the job, because he was busy.
But I told him up front there was no hurry, and do it by his schedule.
So $200 for a new spring sounds high to me, but as you say, you live
where you live.

[Vic Smith]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 12:24:59 -0600, G. Morgan
<seal...@osama-is-dead.net> wrote:

>Vic Smith wrote:
>
>>Keeping to garage doors, I was expecting to pay about $2k for a new
>>steel door - just going by what a workmate paid for a similar one
>>about 5 years ago - but the first guy I called was over here in an
>>hour, and bid $900. He's had a local business with a good rep for a
>>long time. Looked no further.
>
>

>Must have been a nice insulated door. In Houston I'll (well, used to
>before I got out of the business) install a 16 x 7 non-insulated door
>complete with take-down and haul-off for about $500.
>

That's my size - 4 panel - but his garage is attached so he probably
got insulated. Pretty sure he got windows too. Might have an 18'.
Mine is plain-jane but much better looking than the old wood one.
I think I priced a similar door at about $400 at the big box when I
was thinking about doing it myself. Then add the opener.


>Our cost on the door is $300. It takes about 1.5 hours to do, and the
>dump charges $30 to drop off the "dead door".
>

About the time the 2-man crew took. I was glad to see that old door
hauled away on top of their van. Right there is what tipped the scale
for me early about doing it myself. Getting old.

>I'm not up to date on current prices, but I'm sure they have not changed
>much with the ads I see.
>

I'll never know, but no complaints from me.
Heh, just had a visitor. His dad paid $700 for a door at the big box
with 1/2" foam. Put it up himself.
4 times.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 12:24:59 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> Our cost on the door is $300. It takes about 1.5 hours to do, and the
> dump charges $30 to drop off the "dead door".

Wow. You live on a different planet from California prices!

BTW, I just now weighed the 7' tall by 8' wide steel garage door,
and I was shocked it's 185 pounds (and not 135# which one installer
told me based on my description of the door).

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11375189/img/11375189.jpg

Lesson: Don't trust what the installer says on the phone!

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2012 01:56:00 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> The door is apparently 135 pounds.

That was a wrong number. It is off by 50 pounds!

I had described the door to an installer over the phone
who said it was 135 pounds based on what I told him.

As a doublecheck, given the dimensions of the original spring:
2"ID, 0.243"thick, 26.5"long, 7'tall, 13"track radius
the lift calculates to only about 125 pounds.
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/springs/standard-torsion-springs.php#database

However, today I physically MEASURED the weight of the door.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11375192/img/11375192.jpg

The door clearly weighs 185 pounds!

Something isn't right by about 60 pounds!

[Gunner]

http://www.dyersgaragedoors.com/services/newdoors/garage-doors-san-fernando-valley.html

Pretty much typical for California

Gunner

--
""The Democratic constituency is just like a herd of cows. All you have
to do is lay out enough silage and they come running. That’s why I
became an operative working with Democrats. With Democrats all you
have to do is make a lot of noise, lay out the hay, and be ready to
use the ole cattle prod in case a few want to bolt the herd.

Eighty percent of the people who call themselves Democrats don’t have
a clue as to political reality.
What amazes me is that you could take a group of people who are hard
workers and convince them that they should support social programs
that were the exact opposite of their own personal convictions. Put a
little fear here and there and you can get people to vote any way you
want.

The voter is basically dumb and lazy. The reason I became a Democratic
operative instead of a Republican was because there were more
Democrats that didn’t have a clue than there were Republicans."
James Carvell, DNC operative

[Gunner]

Amazing how many jobs a ball joint tool will do isnt it? Mine has only
done 1 set of ball joints..but gets used about 4 times a week for all
sorts of other things...

<G>