How to truck 1,000 gallons of potable water to a residence

[DannyD.]

Do you have experience or ideas for trucking potable water to a residence?

We haven't had rain in a year or so, and some of my neighbor's wells are running
dry. They asked me to figure out an efficient way to get water to them because
the bulk water delivery companies are really lousy on service & costs.

The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at $2.70 per
CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter", either a
1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose thread) at
$29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male 2-1/2 inch firehose
thread) at $176.98 a month.

The returnable deposit for the portable meter is $400 for the 1-inch meter,
and $1,550 for the 3-inch meter, which includes the hydrant wrench & hoses
(although they suggest hoses from Royal Brass at http://rbisj.com).

It turns out that most, if not all, of the bulk water delivery companies
use this method to obtain their water, so, what you're paying for is the
trucking.

Hertz Equipment Rental in San Jose rents a flatbed, which requires only a
normal class C drivers license, for $245/day, which will hold about 8,000
pounds (about 1,000 gallons of water in a plastic tank). The first 50 miles
are free, and then it's 25 cents a mile thereafter.

They don't recommend the 2,000 gallon 'water truck' which requires a Class A
(commercial) drivers license, and costs $459/day, plus 30 cents a mile, because
there is no telling what water was in there prior, so you can't drink from it.

A quick estimate for the costs & logistics for a day's rental might be something like:
a) $5 for each 1,000 gallons of water from SJWC
b) $50 for 1 day rental of the 2-1/2 inch output 3" portable meter
c) $250 for 1 day flatbed truck rental from Hertz
d) $500 for 1 brand new 1,000 gallon water tank from Tractor Supply Company (or equivalent)
e) $100 sales tax on the new water tank & other incidentals

Any other helpful suggestions for me to provide to the neighbors for trucking
in potable water during the drought?

[dpb]

On 6/27/2014 4:16 PM, DannyD. wrote:
> Do you have experience or ideas for trucking potable water to a residence?
>

...

> A quick estimate for the costs& logistics for a day's rental might be something like:

> a) $5 for each 1,000 gallons of water from SJWC
> b) $50 for 1 day rental of the 2-1/2 inch output 3" portable meter
> c) $250 for 1 day flatbed truck rental from Hertz
> d) $500 for 1 brand new 1,000 gallon water tank from Tractor Supply Company (or equivalent)

> e) $100 sales tax on the new water tank& other incidentals

>
> Any other helpful suggestions for me to provide to the neighbors for trucking
> in potable water during the drought?

How many of 'em are there? I'd think if they'd just pool together could
buy a used trailer for the tank and surely somebody has a PU to pull it?
WOuldn't take long to make up for the repeated truck rental.

It's how many of the "city farmers" here haul water to their
horses/etc., where don't have wells everywhere. We haul in 300-gal
tanks to field tanks but have the grain trucks with which to do it
already so that's no additional expense.

--

[DannyD.]

dpb wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 16:56:24 -0500:

> How many of 'em are there?

There are about 50 neighbors in the neighborhood, but, of course,
not everyone will be willing to pitch in. Just those with the
shallower wells (less than about 500 feet or so deep).

> I'd think if they'd just pool together could buy a used trailer
> for the tank and surely somebody has a PU to pull it?
> WOuldn't take long to make up for the repeated truck rental.

Can a typical trailer hold 1,000 gallons (8,000 pounds)?
Can a pickup pull that up a windy 9% grade for about 5 miles?

If so, that's a good idea, since the truck rental is the
largest cost. The water itself is practically free.

Of course, we'd also need a pump...

[Retired]

How about several (3 or 4) neighbors with pickup trucks outfitted with
smaller (100gal=800#) tanks in the bed of pickup making 2 or 3 runs
to/from source ??

[dpb]

A double-axle car hauler is rated at 14k or so...a good stout truck can
easily handle 8k, altho over a grade you'd appreciate a 1T. And say if
it is limiting w/ a small PU and you only run a 500 gal tank/load, how
far is the haul? Still likely a cost-saver.

Iff'en one really looked, one could likely find a used goosneck for not
terribly more than a new bumper-hitch car hauler, but that would, of
course, take somebody w/ something to pull it. Not a horsey outfit,
apparently, or there's be a bunch of 'em around for the horse trailers,
I'd think.

The ? is how many are low on water and how many that aren't now will be
shortly if conditions don't change shortly?

--

[Kurt Ullman]

In article <lokpfu$s9k$3...@news.albasani.net>,

"DannyD." <Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

> dpb wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 16:56:24 -0500:
>
> > How many of 'em are there?
>
> There are about 50 neighbors in the neighborhood, but, of course,
> not everyone will be willing to pitch in. Just those with the
> shallower wells (less than about 500 feet or so deep).

Which brings up another question. Using whatever method you decide on,
how long will it take to break even on just having the current well
drilled deeper.
--
“Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.”
— Aaron Levenstein

[Pico Rico]

"DannyD." <Dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:lokmvj$s9k$1...@news.albasani.net...

did you say how much the commercial water delivery companies charge? That
would be interesting to know.

How far apart are these 50 neighbors? How far from the nearest fire
hydrant?

Is the meter rental $50 per day, every day? Or is it less by the week or by
the season?

what equipment is already available to these residents? Pickup trucks?
Trailers?

[Stormin Mormon]

CY: Text inserted after my initials.

On 6/27/2014 5:16 PM, DannyD. wrote:
> Do you have experience or ideas for trucking potable water to a residence?

CY: Never done it, but willing to think some about it.

>
> We haven't had rain in a year or so, and some of my neighbor's wells are running
> dry. They asked me to figure out an efficient way to get water to them because
> the bulk water delivery companies are really lousy on service & costs.

CY: How close is the nearest neighbor with municipal water? Or the
nearest muni hyddrant?

>
> The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at $2.70 per
> CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter", either a
> 1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose thread) at
> $29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male 2-1/2 inch firehose
> thread) at $176.98 a month.

CY: In the NYS areas, hydrant water is often rather
muddy brown, the house taps are on top of the mains,
and hydrant on the side. So, please note that you
may need to flush the hydrant to get the rust out.
Or use a hydrant someone else used the other day.

>
> The returnable deposit for the portable meter is $400 for the 1-inch meter,
> and $1,550 for the 3-inch meter, which includes the hydrant wrench & hoses
> (although they suggest hoses from Royal Brass at http://rbisj.com).

CY: With the 3/4, it may take several hours to fill a tank. Not sure.

>
> It turns out that most, if not all, of the bulk water delivery companies
> use this method to obtain their water, so, what you're paying for is the
> trucking.

CY: And the manpower.

>
> Hertz Equipment Rental in San Jose rents a flatbed, which requires only a
> normal class C drivers license, for $245/day, which will hold about 8,000
> pounds (about 1,000 gallons of water in a plastic tank). The first 50 miles
> are free, and then it's 25 cents a mile thereafter.

CY: That could add up in a hurry.

>
> They don't recommend the 2,000 gallon 'water truck' which requires a Class A
> (commercial) drivers license, and costs $459/day, plus 30 cents a mile, because
> there is no telling what water was in there prior, so you can't drink from it.
>
> A quick estimate for the costs & logistics for a day's rental might be something like:
> a) $5 for each 1,000 gallons of water from SJWC
> b) $50 for 1 day rental of the 2-1/2 inch output 3" portable meter
> c) $250 for 1 day flatbed truck rental from Hertz
> d) $500 for 1 brand new 1,000 gallon water tank from Tractor Supply Company (or equivalent)
> e) $100 sales tax on the new water tank & other incidentals
>
> Any other helpful suggestions for me to provide to the neighbors for trucking
> in potable water during the drought?
>

CY: I knew some folks who used a tap at the local
highway department, and 5 gal cooler jugs. No one
liked to haul jugs, so I'd do a couple of thiers
when I visited.

CY: My one experience hauling water, is that it's
thankless, and you get crap if you miss a day or
let em run out. I used to run jugs of drinking
water to some ingrates, years ago. I ran average
of 3 or 4 gal a day for drinking and cooking,
they had bad well water for laundry and bathing.
Someone mentioned me to the park super, we're not
allowed to truck water out. I mentioned that to the
ingrates, who told me not to bother, they had several
people offer to haul water. I stopped, and about two
days later, they were calling and giving me crap
cause they ran out of coffee. What about all the
people who offered to bring water? Well, they put
empty jugs on their car seats, but no one brought
them back full. I was the only one who actually did.
And so I got a 12 quart motor oil box that concealed
two gal jugs of water, and I carried that in and out
of my trailer a couple times a day. No one figured
that one out. I set up a system with the "man" of the
house, put the empties on a bottom shelf of cabinet.
I also arrange the system with the wife, and all three
teen daughters. I'd come in, look, no empties. They
gave me crap, and they were all out of water again.
I checked some of the fullies on top shelf, they were
all empty, and no one knew to put the empties on
bottom shelf. Idiots.

You might want to consider that you're going to be the
only one hauling, and the neighbors may be as ingrate as
these idiots I helped.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/27/2014 6:44 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
>
>
> Which brings up another question. Using whatever method you decide on,
> how long will it take to break even on just having the current well
> drilled deeper.
>

How far from the muni water, and practical
to tie in?

If someone a half mile away has muni water,
can you run a LONG several lengths of hose?

Maybe this is your new job, since there appears
be a real need, and very few people have attention
to detail.

--

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/27/2014 5:59 PM, DannyD. wrote:
> There are about 50 neighbors in the neighborhood, but, of course,
> not everyone will be willing to pitch in. Just those with the
> shallower wells (less than about 500 feet or so deep).
>

CY: You figure to set up a local tank, or just
dump water into the wells, and juice up the
aquifier?

>> I'd think if they'd just pool together could buy a used trailer
>> for the tank and surely somebody has a PU to pull it?
>> WOuldn't take long to make up for the repeated truck rental.
>
> Can a typical trailer hold 1,000 gallons (8,000 pounds)?
> Can a pickup pull that up a windy 9% grade for about 5 miles?

CY: I'd doubt that weight. You'd have to find some
one and check their owners manual for that spec.
Might need towing package, and transmission cooler,
and all that.

>
> If so, that's a good idea, since the truck rental is the
> largest cost. The water itself is practically free.
>
> Of course, we'd also need a pump...
>

CY: Pump for what? Sounds like you use hydrant pressure
to fill the tank, and gravity to drain the tank into
someone's well.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/27/2014 6:11 PM, Retired wrote:
>
> How about several (3 or 4) neighbors with
pickup trucks outfitted with
> smaller (100gal=800#) tanks in the bed of
pickup making 2 or 3 runs
> to/from source ??

Danny will have as much success getting
others to haul water, as the HO who I
tried to help. Really, there are VERY
few people who can and will do this kind
of task.

I do wish Danny all the best, but this is
my personal experience with a similar
situation.

[Gordon Shumway]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:16:36 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

>The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at $2.70 per
>CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter", either a
>1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose thread) at
>$29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male 2-1/2 inch firehose
>thread) at $176.98 a month.

I can't help you with advice for getting the water delivered, but I
can give you some advice if you opt for the "firehose" thread option.
Back in the day it was not all that uncommon for several neighboring
towns to all have different threads on their hydrants. There used to
be dozens of threads used on hydrants and I'm confident that has
become more standardized over the years. My advice is make sure you
know what threads are on the hydrant(s) you would use.

Good luck.

[trader_4]

If he rents a truck, then he needs a 1000 gallon tank, which
isn't going to be cheap, plus a pump probably. Then he has to store
the tank when it's not used, put it on the truck, secure it somehow
etc. It doesn't sound that practical to me. And if you screw up and
the tank full of water slides off when making a turn, you could
crush the hippie chick in the VW.

So.... Why not just rent a potable water tank truck? I would think
they must be available. And you can probably get one that holds
more than 1000 gallons too.

I'm left wondering where the water goes when it's delivered? Are
these folks going to get at least a 500 gallon tank to put it in?
Or is someone going to be making daily deliveries?

And the final question is how much you all would save assuming
you chip in, compared to an existing water delivery service.
If it's not a lot, IMO it may not be worth getting
involved.

Also, IDK how this all works, but a lot of times, when a community
is hit like this, doesn't the local fire company start delivering
water for free or some nominal charge? Maybe getting that organized
would be more productive.

[o m e @guy.com H o m e G u y]

"DannyD." wrote:

> > How many of 'em are there?
>
> There are about 50 neighbors in the neighborhood, but, of course,
> not everyone will be willing to pitch in. Just those with the
> shallower wells (less than about 500 feet or so deep).

Regardless how many of them cooperate in a bulk water purchase, where
are each of them going to store the water?

Presumably if you normally have well water, you won't necessarily need
or have a storage tank along the lines of a few hundred gallons if the
water is (or was) always available.

[Dean Hoffman]

On 6/27/14, 4:16 PM, DannyD. wrote:
> Do you have experience or ideas for trucking potable water to a residence?
>
> We haven't had rain in a year or so, and some of my neighbor's wells are running
> dry. They asked me to figure out an efficient way to get water to them because
> the bulk water delivery companies are really lousy on service & costs.
>
> The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at $2.70 per
> CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter", either a
> 1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose thread) at
> $29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male 2-1/2 inch firehose
> thread) at $176.98 a month.
>

Cut rest.

Farmers in my area apply NH3 for corn fertilizer. It's not unusual
for them to pull a couple 1000 gallon NH3 trailers behind a pickup.
Some examples here: http://alturl.com/m3cto
You could buy just the running gear then mount your own tank.

[DannyD.]

Retired wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:11:53 -0400:

> How about several (3 or 4) neighbors with pickup trucks outfitted with
> smaller (100gal=800#) tanks in the bed of pickup making 2 or 3 runs
> to/from source ??

That might work.

[DannyD.]

dpb wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 17:16:41 -0500:

> A double-axle car hauler is rated at 14k or so...a good stout truck can
> easily handle 8k, altho over a grade you'd appreciate a 1T. And say if
> it is limiting w/ a small PU and you only run a 500 gal tank/load, how
> far is the haul? Still likely a cost-saver.

It's less than 5 miles from the fire hydrant but the grade is a windy 9%.
I never owned a pickup, nor a trailer, so I'm unfamiliar with what they
can carry.

[DannyD.]

dpb wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 17:16:41 -0500:

> The ? is how many are low on water and how many that aren't now will be
> shortly if conditions don't change shortly?

That's the real problem. Right now, only two are actually *out* of water
(they are using it faster than it comes in).

The rest of them (including me) are *slow* on water, which just means
that it will only get worse since the next forcasted rainfall is some
time around Halloween.

[DannyD.]

Kurt Ullman wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:44:25 -0400:

> Which brings up another question. Using whatever method you decide on,
> how long will it take to break even on just having the current well
> drilled deeper.

Good question.

How much does it cost to drill a well an additional 100 feet?

I don't know. Mine are something like 400 feet deep (I think), but
what would it cost to drill that to 500 feet? I don't know.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:18:56 -0400:

> How far from the muni water, and practical
> to tie in?

The fire hydrants are about five miles away, and that's the
absolute closest to municipal water (San Jose Water Company).

> Maybe this is your new job, since there appears
> be a real need, and very few people have attention
> to detail.

I'm thinking of building a how-to web site, where I test free
android apps, or that I write how to's for people who know as
little as I do. Maybe .. some day ...

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:21:57 -0400:

> CY: You figure to set up a local tank, or just
> dump water into the wells, and juice up the
> aquifier?

Just dump water into the tanks.

Everyone, by code, has to have something like 10,000 gallons or
15,000 minimum (codes changed over time) so we would just
dump the water into the top of the water tank that every
house has.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

In article <lokmvj$s9k$1...@news.albasani.net>,

How much would it cost to deepen a/the wells? you could get several
households to pay for the cost of deepening one or more of the wells and
distribute the water via a smaller, truck mountable tank

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:21:57 -0400:

> CY: Pump for what? Sounds like you use hydrant pressure
> to fill the tank, and gravity to drain the tank into
> someone's well.

The fire hydrant would likely fill the tank on the truck,
but, the homeowner water tanks are ten to fifteen (or so)
feet up in the air, and some are on hills above the houses.

So, the pump is to get the water from the truck all the
way up (maybe fifteen or twenty feet?) to the top of the
water tank, which is the only ready-made opening.

[DannyD.]

H o m e G u y wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:48:00 -0400:

> Regardless how many of them cooperate in a bulk water purchase, where
> are each of them going to store the water?
>
> Presumably if you normally have well water, you won't necessarily need
> or have a storage tank along the lines of a few hundred gallons if the
> water is (or was) always available.

Everyone has 10,000 or 15,000 gallon tanks of water. Most have two
or three large tanks. I don't think anyone doesn't have a tank or three.

So, that's where the water would be stored.

[DannyD.]

Pico Rico wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 16:01:57 -0700:

> did you say how much the commercial water delivery companies charge? That
> would be interesting to know.

I had called this water service a while ago to fill my pool:
Franks Water Service, 20915 Old Santa Cruz Highway, 408-353-1343

He told me to get someone else because he didn't deliver up the hills,
but, he said it would cost about $4,000 to fill a 40,000 gallon pool.

> How far apart are these 50 neighbors?

Total of about 4 miles from end to end (as the crow flies).

> How far from the nearest fire hydrant?

Average of about five miles from the nearest San Jose Water Company
fire hydrant to the residences. That's why everyone has their own well.

> Is the meter rental $50 per day, every day?
> Or is it less by the week or by the season?

Actually it's by the month, but I just divided by 30 to get the
daily cost. I didn't ask them at the San Jose Water Company what their
shortest rental period is (I can call them Monday at 408-279-7835).

> what equipment is already available to these residents?
> Pickup trucks? Trailers?

Some have horses, so they have trailers. I don't have any of that,
and none have volunteered any equipment yet. Some have pickups,
but, it's not farm land, so, most just have Lexus SUVs & Prius'
sedans.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:17:03 -0400:

> CY: How close is the nearest neighbor with municipal water? Or the
> nearest muni hyddrant?

Five miles to the nearest hydrants.

Muni water is the same, but there isn't any access that I know of,
other than through the hydrants.

[DannyD.]

Gordon Shumway wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:11:27 -0500:

> My advice is make sure you
> know what threads are on the hydrant(s) you would use.

I understand.
There is apparently an "iron pipe" thread, and a "brass fire hose" thread.

I think. I'm not sure, but that will be a detail that must be considered
when the trucking part is figured out.

All of us have what is called a "wharf hydrant" on our residences
which is tied to the bottom 1/3 of the water tanks on the property.

It's the code for Santa Clara County that each house has their own
fire hydrant, but these hydrants are tall skinny things, but I think
the hose is the same as the smaller opening on the San Jose Water Company
fire hydrants miles away.

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:01:32 -0700:

> So.... Why not just rent a potable water tank truck? I would think
> they must be available. And you can probably get one that holds
> more than 1000 gallons too.

The problem with the Hertz water tank trucks is that they only have
2,000 gallons, which (a) requires a class A license, and (b) they say
they would never recommend you drink out of it because they're mostly
used as sprayers at construction sites.

Hertz Equipment Rental 408-451-9320

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:01:32 -0700:

>

> I'm left wondering where the water goes when it's delivered? Are
> these folks going to get at least a 500 gallon tank to put it in?
> Or is someone going to be making daily deliveries?

Everyone has 10,000 to 15,000 gallons of water storage on their
property. It's the code (grandfathered and changed over time).

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:01:32 -0700:

> Also, IDK how this all works, but a lot of times, when a community
> is hit like this, doesn't the local fire company start delivering
> water for free or some nominal charge? Maybe getting that organized
> would be more productive.

That's an interesting idea!

I will ask them tomorrow (or maybe Monday).

That's the kind of innovative suggestions I was hoping to find from
the collective mind!

Thanks!

[Robert Green]

"Kurt Ullman" <kurtu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> Which brings up another question. Using whatever method you decide on,
> how long will it take to break even on just having the current well
> drilled deeper.

Which brings up another question: So how long before even the deeper wells
run dry? I've read this is not just a drought-induced issue but that the
water table in that area has been receding for decades due to groundwater
pumping. There are also some interesting geological questions relating to
whether an ever-smaller water table might have an effect on future
earthquakes.

<<"When humans deplete groundwater," said Benoit, "the amount of mass or
material in Earth's crust is reduced. That disrupts Earth's force balances,
causing uplift of nearby mountains and reducing a force that helps keep the
San Andreas fault from slipping." >>

http://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=131393

We've seen that fracking induces earthquakes, albeit small ones, but I think
the jury's still out on what effect all the water-shifting that goes on in
that part of the country will have in the long run.

It's important to remember that areas of lush vegetation have become deserts
in very short geological timespans because of volcanic eruptions or other
major events. You don't have to go very far inland in California to find
plenty of deserts.

It won't be long before we start strapping huge engines on icebergs and
steering them toward Califonia to keep the nation's agriculture center
afloat. (-;

--
Bobby G.

[DannyD.]

Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:39:22 -0700:

>
> How much would it cost to deepen a/the wells? you could get several
> households to pay for the cost of deepening one or more of the wells and
> distribute the water via a smaller, truck mountable tank

The way it works here is that each homeowner has their own well, so,
there wouldn't be any sharing of drilling costs.

I have two wells, for example. Neither one puts out more than a few
gallons before shutting off lately.

[Edward Reid]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:18:56 -0400, Stormin Mormon
<cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>How far from the muni water, and practical to tie in?

Note that it's not just the distance, it's the height. Danny is
talking about 5 miles at 9% grade. Maybe the 5 miles isn't all on the
grade, but it sounds like his 'hood may be 2000' above that closest
muni water. It takes 1000 psi to raise water 2000'. Therefore it would
not just be a matter of running pipe, it would also require new pumps
-- either pipe to handle 1000 psi and a very hefty pump, or normal
pipe and several stages of pumps.

Edward

[Edward Reid]

Oh, and if you use that 1000 gallon tank ... remember that unless it
has internal baffles, it must be FULL while you are driving.
Otherwise, the sloshing will turn your truck over or drag the tank off
the truck. And this is a big problem since you are planning to empty
it in several stages. You could try driving very slowly when it's not
full, but given the kind of terrain you are talking about, I suspect
that won't be enough.

Perhaps you can get a tank with baffles. I suspect that $500 won't buy
it, but I could be wrong.

Or you could simply deliver each full load to just one resident. With
the size tanks you are talking about, you'd have to do some planning,
but it sounds feasible.

Edward

[DannyD.]

Edward Reid wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 02:05:26 -0400:

> Maybe the 5 miles isn't all on the
> grade, but it sounds like his 'hood may be 2000' above that closest
> muni water.

This is an astute calculation.
The municipal water supply is at about 300 to 600 feet elevation.
The houses are all well above 2000 feet elevation.

[DannyD.]

Edward Reid wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 02:11:19 -0400:

> it must be FULL while you are driving.
> Otherwise, the sloshing will turn your truck over or drag the tank off
> the truck.

This is interesting! And thought provoking!

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/27/2014 8:11 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>
> I can't help you with advice for getting the water delivered, but I
> can give you some advice if you opt for the "firehose" thread option.
> Back in the day it was not all that uncommon for several neighboring
> towns to all have different threads on their hydrants. There used to
> be dozens of threads used on hydrants and I'm confident that has
> become more standardized over the years. My advice is make sure you
> know what threads are on the hydrant(s) you would use.
>
> Good luck.
>

In theory they "all" use national standard
thread, but there are exceptions. Near me,
Newark, NY has a bastard thread, and Rochester
NY also.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

[Stormin Mormon]

Five miles is too long for garden hose, even if
it had the flow and pressure.

The local tanks, are the tanks inground, or above
ground? Inground, you can probably gravity drain
from the truck tank.

I sense this will turn into a one man project, and
that one man will be rather busy.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 12:40 AM, DannyD. wrote:
> The fire hydrant would likely fill the tank on the truck,
> but, the homeowner water tanks are ten to fifteen (or so)
> feet up in the air, and some are on hills above the houses.
>
> So, the pump is to get the water from the truck all the
> way up (maybe fifteen or twenty feet?) to the top of the
> water tank, which is the only ready-made opening.
>

"Now that you have read all the posts before replying
to the posts, put your name on the top of the paper
and turn it in."

Since houses all have electric (right?) you can use a HF
or similar well pump. Since you figure to do this more than
once, you can build a fill pipe or tap into the existing
fill system, for your own use. Ideally, there is existing
way they fill the tanks, from the well. You can put in a
valve, to fill from the truck. Run an extension cord down
two flight of stairs, and move the washing machine to get
at the good electric socket behind the washing machine for
each tank load of water. Could turn into good exercise.

I can see this turning into a major social event for the
delivery guy, as it may take an hour (or more) to pump
the truck tank to the house tank. Won't you please come
in and tell me all about aunt Myrtle's lumbago? And how's
Aunt Bee doing? Goober says hey.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 12:41 AM, DannyD. wrote:>
> Everyone has 10,000 or 15,000 gallon tanks of water. Most have two
> or three large tanks. I don't think anyone doesn't have a tank or three.
>
> So, that's where the water would be stored.
>

With that much capacity, you might look into a
bigger delivery truck. I mean, if you had a
5,000 gal truck, you could split the water off,
and deliver some water to two or three houses
at same time. OTOH, 5,000 is a LOT of weight and
would probably be the size of a semi trailer.

Would be nice to get the local FD out for relay
pumping practice one day a month, and fill ALL
the tanks and be done with it.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 12:46 AM, DannyD. wrote:
>
> Some have horses, so they have trailers. I don't have any of that,
> and none have volunteered any equipment yet. Some have pickups,
> but, it's not farm land, so, most just have Lexus SUVs & Prius'
> sedans.
>

It sure presents a lot of challenge, for sure.
I'd guess a few folks have those coolers with
five gal jugs to put on top. Not perfect, but
what you gong to do? Get a couple more jugs each
time you go to town.

What does the FD do, with housing and no hydrants?

Would it be a fair guess, that the high mounted
10,000 gal tanks, you're supposed to fill them
during the rainy season, if there is rain?

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 12:49 AM, DannyD. wrote:
> All of us have what is called a "wharf hydrant" on our residences
> which is tied to the bottom 1/3 of the water tanks on the property.
>
> It's the code for Santa Clara County that each house has their own
> fire hydrant, but these hydrants are tall skinny things, but I think
> the hose is the same as the smaller opening on the San Jose Water Company
> fire hydrants miles away.
>

That might provide the input, so you can put
water into the tanks? I'd think that in case
of fire, the FD would need to tap the resident
tanks, for water.

[Stormin Mormon]

I'd not considered the altitude question. That
does cause all kinds of problems, trying to get
up hill.

Ideally if each HO brought home 10 gal of water
with each trip to town. But, back to my experience
with the family with bad well water. Few people
have that mental capacity, even when she goes out
and puts the jugs on their car seats.

[Stormin Mormon]

Danny says most HO have 10,000 gal tanks at home,
so delivery of complete load doesn't sound like a
problem. Sloshing is a major problem when turning
corners. Every now and again, a fire department
flips a tanker, cause of the slosh baffle problem.

[Stormin Mormon]

As former volunteer FF, and having taken some fire
protection courses, I remember lift takes 0.434 PSI
per foot of rise. Sounds like you're better off
driving than pumping.

I paid 3.69 for cheap nolead yesterday, and it's
more like 3.89 in some places, here (western NY),
IIRC. I think California with the botique designer
low smog fuels cost a pile more than NYS.

So, you'd best to budget a LOT for motor fuel on
your project. Driving water uphill is not going to
be the same as one frail gramma in a Prius. Might
get dual 1,000 gal tanks, one white for potable
water, other red for gasoline.

[trader_4]

On Saturday, June 28, 2014 12:36:14 AM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:

> Kurt Ullman wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:44:25 -0400:
>
>
>
> > Which brings up another question. Using whatever method you decide on,
>
> > how long will it take to break even on just having the current well
>
> > drilled deeper.
>
>
>

> Good question.
>
>
>
> How much does it cost to drill a well an additional 100 feet?
>
>

With plastic casing, which is what is being used here these days,
AFAIK you can't just drill an existing well deeper. You have to start all over.
Steel casing, etc maybe you can. I'd definitely find out about that
option though.

[trader_4]

No one other than Hertz? I would think someone would rent potable
water trucks. People do have to occasionally haul it around.

[trader_4]

Why do you take one of my replies and turn it into three when
you reply? Going for the record # or posts this month?

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 7:54 AM, trader_4 wrote:
>>
>> How much does it cost to drill a well an additional 100 feet?
>>
>>
>
> With plastic casing, which is what is being used here these days,
> AFAIK you can't just drill an existing well deeper. You have to start all over.
> Steel casing, etc maybe you can. I'd definitely find out about that
> option though.

Since they are 2,000 altitude, it may be there
isn't enough water to be useful. Danny, do any
of your neighbors have good supply of water?
If no neighbors have water, it's possible the
deeper well option isn't viable.

Lets also look at the time factor. Suppose
that Danny or other worker decides to shuttle
thousand gallon trips. Fill the tank will probably
be 10 minutes at hydrant, plus connect and dis-
connect. Threads, put the meter back on the truck,
and so on. At the house, we're not sure what is the
GPH with a pump, there is time needed to pump into
the house tank. Drive up and down the hill. Anyone
want to make a SWAG as to the time for one shuttle?
More than anyone expects, I'm sure.

[CRNG]

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 05:47:33 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote in <lolktl$h7r$1...@news.albasani.net>

After reading the (IMO many good) suggestions in this thread, it's
beginning to look like a pretty complex problem.

I wonder how it affects property values?
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[o m e @guy.com H o m e G u y]

Stormin Mormon wrote:

> > Everyone has 10,000 or 15,000 gallon tanks of water. Most have two
> > or three large tanks. I don't think anyone doesn't have a tank or
> > three. So, that's where the water would be stored.

Why on earth would you need that much capacity?

If you have a well system that *normally* doesn't run dry, then why
would you need so much storage capacity for potable water?

And how would you keep the tanks clean enough (and the water clean
enough) to drink or cook with so much stored water?

What exactly is this water used for? Household stuff?

> With that much capacity, you might look into a bigger delivery
> truck. I mean, if you had a 5,000 gal truck, you could split the
> water off, and deliver some water to two or three houses at same
> time. OTOH, 5,000 is a LOT of weight and would probably be the
> size of a semi trailer.

I thought the point of this whole thing was to rent a single water meter
and an inexpensive transportation system to convey the water to multiple
people. If a large truck + tank would cost 10 times as much as a
smaller tank on a trailer pulled by your own PU, then maybe a few round
trips to each person with the smaller tank would still end up costing
less than dragging around the 5k gallon truck.

[Chuck Finley]

On 06/28/2014 07:32 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> I can see this turning into a major social event for the
> delivery guy, as it may take an hour (or more) to pump
> the truck tank to the house tank.

Especially if the husband is at work, the housewife has big jugs and the driver has a big hose.

There will be a hole lot of pumpin' for sure.

[Stormin Mormon]

Driver has a thousand gallon tank, electric
pump, and won't quit till he's empty. Hope
she's 15 feet in the air, too.

[Pico Rico]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DWxrv.23648$J82....@fx13.iad...

the only guy I knew who actually had to do this had a water tank in his
pickup truck, not too large, and filled it up at work. No mileage costs. I
assume he paid back his employer, or maybe the employer suggested it as a
low cost fringe benefit.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 9:40 AM, Pico Rico wrote:
> the only guy I knew who actually had to do this had a water tank in his
> pickup truck, not too large, and filled it up at work. No mileage costs. I
> assume he paid back his employer, or maybe the employer suggested it as a
> low cost fringe benefit.
>
>

And that sounds like excellent idea. I have a gut
sense this is more of a retirement community.
Danny,anyone in your area going to work every
day like PR's friend?

[Kurt Ullman]

In article <lolgvk$hd2$7...@news.albasani.net>,
"DannyD." <Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

> Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 19:21:57 -0400:
>
> > CY: Pump for what? Sounds like you use hydrant pressure
> > to fill the tank, and gravity to drain the tank into
> > someone's well.

>
> The fire hydrant would likely fill the tank on the truck,
> but, the homeowner water tanks are ten to fifteen (or so)
> feet up in the air, and some are on hills above the houses.
>
> So, the pump is to get the water from the truck all the
> way up (maybe fifteen or twenty feet?) to the top of the
> water tank, which is the only ready-made opening.

Any chance for a used fire department truck. Fair amount of water,
already baffled for a little easier carry, you know they are built to go
places and already have the pump on board.
--
“Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.”
— Aaron Levenstein

[Harry K]

On Friday, June 27, 2014 5:11:27 PM UTC-7, Gordon Shumway wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:16:36 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
>
> <Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

> >The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at $2.70 per
> >CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter", either a
> >1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose thread) at
> >$29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male 2-1/2 inch firehose thread) at $176.98 a month.

> I can't help you with advice for getting the water delivered, but I
> can give you some advice if you opt for the "firehose" thread option.
> Back in the day it was not all that uncommon for several neighboring
> towns to all have different threads on their hydrants. There used to
> be dozens of threads used on hydrants and I'm confident that has
> become more standardized over the years. My advice is make sure you
> know what threads are on the hydrant(s) you would use.

> Good luck.

That bit the city fire department badly. about 4am one night the city fire department garage caught fire (later determined to be caused by a plugged in extension cord hanging over a nail). All the trucks were inside and could not be gotten out...except one, the antique "Wimpy", a truck from the 20s or 30s stored in another shed. Fully operational and full of vintage equipment...none that was of any use as the connections did not mate up with the fire hydrants. We lost the garage and all fire department equipment. By the time other agencies got there all they could do was keep the fire from spreading.

Harry K

[Harry K]

On Friday, June 27, 2014 2:16:36 PM UTC-7, DannyD. wrote:

<snip>

> Any other helpful suggestions for me to provide to the neighbors for trucking
> in potable water during the drought?

From the description of the problem (which apparently will be on-going and not getting better, it is time for that community to get together for a LID (local Improvement District) and run a pipeline those 5 miles for a permanent connection.

Cost of the 5 miles in equipment and pipe would soon amortize over the hauling, rental, etc. Right Of Way acquisition would be the deal breaker probably.

Harry K

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 10:06:14 -0400:

> And that sounds like excellent idea. I have a gut
> sense this is more of a retirement community.
> Danny,anyone in your area going to work every
> day like PR's friend?

Well, there are all types. For example, the woman who ran
out of water just divorced from her husband about two years ago,
and she got the house and kids so she's actually renting her
additional cottage on the property to another ex homeowner
who lost his home down the street to the bank. So, she's
not retured.

Yet, others own multiple companies, and the only ones going
up and down the hill are their landscapers and repairmen.

The majority are independently wealthy (except me, as I've
retired, but I may have to reconsider my options), but
some are people who have been here for 40 years, and they
must have bought when prices were less than a million so
their taxes aren't killing them like mine are killing me!
:)

I just got an update from the divorced lady. She is
contracting out to get her rather shallow (only 300 feet)
well drilled deeper. The next in line is a lady whose
husband recently died, and her house is under foreclosure.

Her well (as is mine) is tripping every few minutes, so,
she's conserving water (as am I) and hoping the water supply
lasts until the next forcasted rain (which will come in
October or November).

As for me, I filled the pool, so, "my" supply, while intermittent,
was good enough to last, but, there are vineyards here which
must be using a LOT of water ... so it may simply be a matter
of location.

I don't know, but, for me, and for those without the ready
capital to drill deeper, I'd go for the temporary solution of
trucking the water up the hill.

The sloshing tipping over the truck seems to me to be a very
real concern that I hadn't considered, because, there is no
guardrail, and you're going down a slope that doesn't end
for thousands of vertical feet, so, it would behoove us to
better understand the sloshing effect on a pickup truck filled
with a 1,000 gallons of water in a tank.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:53:30 -0400:

> So, you'd best to budget a LOT for motor fuel on
> your project. Driving water uphill is not going to
> be the same as one frail gramma in a Prius. Might
> get dual 1,000 gal tanks, one white for potable
> water, other red for gasoline.

I always wondered how much of that lost fuel mileage you
get back on the downhill drive, which is done essentially in
neutral for the entire 5 miles.

I realize it won't exactly cancel out, but, essentially you
get 100mpg (or whatever) on the downhill drive; while you
probably get something like half your city mpg on the uphill
climb.

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 04:54:16 -0700:

> With plastic casing, which is what is being used here these days,
> AFAIK you can't just drill an existing well deeper. You have to start all over.
> Steel casing, etc maybe you can. I'd definitely find out about that
> option though.

I just found out that the divorced lady who has run out of water is
sharing the well with the lady whose husband recently died. They have
separate tanks, so, it's just a matter of time before the second
lady has the problem.

Both have young kids, and not much by way of finances (other than the
huge illiquid equity presumed to be in the homes). The plan, I'm told,
is to drill deeper (but that plastic vs steel casing may be an issue).

Luckily, the divorced lady has her ex to back her up, so I think the
plan is to cut the single mother a break, at least until the home is
foreclosed on (which takes about a year). It's currently up for sale,
but there are no takers that I know of.

It's hard to help them, as I'm out of my league when it comes to this
stuff, having never owned a home with a well before the current one, and,
well, when the well works, it just works. So I don't know much more
about it other than watching the little block of wood go up and down.

[Pico Rico]

"DannyD." <Dan...@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:lompse$ehd$1...@news.albasani.net...

which side of San Jose is this neighborhood?

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 08:05:11 -0400:

> Since they are 2,000 altitude, it may be there
> isn't enough water to be useful. Danny, do any
> of your neighbors have good supply of water?
> If no neighbors have water, it's possible the
> deeper well option isn't viable.

I'm *not* by any means an expert. So, what I tell you is
just what I happen to observe or hear.

In "my" case, I have two wells. I don't remember what the initial
inspection said of the depth, but the good well is about 400 feet
deep, and the bad well is shallower. The good well produces water
enough to keep my 10,000 gallon tanks full, but I don't use much
water at all. In fact, I prefer to pee outside, for example, assuming
it's good for the environment (and nobody can see me doing it!).

For "my" two wells, one can't run more than two or three minutes
(or maybe not even that) before shutting down, even in the late
winter. The other well, the deeper newer well, can run for ten
minutes or longer in the late winter, but right now, it's cycling
every three or so minutes also. So, we all know what that means.

However, *most* of the neighbors are not complaining, yet one has
a well which (she claims) is a thousand feet or more deep! (I find
that hard to believe). Another just told me he had a well drilled
which is 500 feet deep. There are vinyards here, so, they *must*
be using a lot of irrigation water (although most have a run-off
collection system for interring the winter rains underground).

The main ones with the problem are the two single moms, who have
at the moment, what I'm told is a "dry" well. It may just be that
the two of them are both renting out portions of their households,
so, their water load is too much for the one well (I don't know),
but, at the moment, the concerns are more prophylactic than
dire (at least for me).

With 40-acre zoning out here, nobody is going to build any more
houses, so, we have to make do with what we have right now.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 08:05:11 -0400:

> Anyone want to make a SWAG as to the time for one shuttle?
> More than anyone expects, I'm sure.

This is good information to think about, as the main intent
is to plan ahead about our options, if the drought continues
in force.

We can rest assured there will be no rain until about November,
but, after that, we won't know what will happen.

Another year of no rain would be telling.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:26:30 -0400:

> The local tanks, are the tanks inground, or above
> ground? Inground, you can probably gravity drain
> from the truck tank.

I don't think code allows inground tanks.

They're all above ground.

I've never seen a single tank, and most have clusters
of two or three.

[LdB]

On 6/27/2014 4:16 PM, DannyD. wrote:
> Do you have experience or ideas for trucking potable water to a residence?
>
> We haven't had rain in a year or so, and some of my neighbor's wells are running
> dry. They asked me to figure out an efficient way to get water to them because
> the bulk water delivery companies are really lousy on service & costs.
>

Most of the people around here have their water trucked in from the
water plant in town about 20 miles away. I believe they get about 2000
gallons for $70 or $80.

I have a 200 gallon tank on my 1/2 ton. I go into town once a week,
mail, groceries etc and pick up 170 gallons costing $2 and change.
(prepaid card) That water is used for all our household needs. We
practice water conservation to help stretch the supply. Don't flush
after every leak, turn the shower off while soaping down. Not an
overly inconvenient lifestyle and as I see it the truck pays for
itself. Depending on the amount of company we get on the weekends I
generally need to bring in a load three weeks out of four. We live on
a riverbank so irrigating the lawn and garden is not a problem but I
don't use any river water in the house.

LdB

[DannyD.]

H o m e G u y wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 08:53:43 -0400:

> Why on earth would you need that much capacity?

Oh oh!

While I have almost a full tank of water, my well situation is
(apparently) much worse (for me) than I had thought it was!
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3919/14504597706_a2b48ba502_b.jpg

I went outside just now to snap that picture of my tanks for you
(I think I miscalculated my tank size) and I realized, to my
horror, that my one "good" well was not pumping anything when I
cycled the circuit breakers out of curiosity!

So, I just shut down all the circuit breakers, and will give
the pumps a half hour or more to "rest", and then I will turn
each pump on, to time how long they last.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2936/14524280261_702ee2fd1d_b.jpg

> If you have a well system that *normally* doesn't run dry, then why
> would you need so much storage capacity for potable water?

I am not the expert, but, I think the well runs dry every day
all day. I only go out there when there is a problem, but, for
example, my main well wasn't pumping anything when I just cycled
it, and my old well ran for just a few seconds (barely enough
to spin the water meter a tenth of a revolution).

> And how would you keep the tanks clean enough (and the water clean
> enough) to drink or cook with so much stored water?

I'm not climbing up right now, but, I *have* looked into my tanks,
and, yes, it's rusty and spidery in there. But we drink the water
all the time, and, AFAIK, there is no filter.

> What exactly is this water used for? Household stuff?

Yes.
- House
- Sprinklers
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2912/14341451517_3567e6e21b_k.jpg
- Pool
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3814/14125545570_e6f48b9f56_b.jpg

While I have one of the smallest houses here, my pool is almost
40K gallons, and their are almost 200 sprinkler heads, so, that's
an appreciable amount of water. When the sprinklers turned on
earlier this week, they drained the tanks, so, that's another
homeowner task I have to figure out why that happened.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 12:20 PM, DannyD. wrote:
> Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:53:30 -0400:
>
>> So, you'd best to budget a LOT for motor fuel on
>> your project. Driving water uphill is not going to

> I always wondered how much of that lost fuel mileage you
> get back on the downhill drive, which is done essentially in
> neutral for the entire 5 miles.
>
> I realize it won't exactly cancel out, but, essentially you
> get 100mpg (or whatever) on the downhill drive; while you
> probably get something like half your city mpg on the uphill
> climb.

Don't know. I'd dare to guess you will go through
rear axles and transmissions at rapid rate. Rented
truck might be best.

[Dolcent]

DannyD. wrote, on Fri, 27 Jun 2014 21:16:36 +0000:

> Any other helpful suggestions for me to provide to the neighbors for trucking
> in potable water during the drought?

How much water is in a waterbed?
Can it fit in a pickup?

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:39:45 -0400:

> What does the FD do, with housing and no hydrants?

I'm no expert, but I can see the wharf hydrants at *every* home.
Here's mine, for example:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2914/14526573314_81a4c06b1f_b.jpg

Plus, since we're in the most extreme fire hazard zone there is
in California, there's always a helicopter flying around which
can't but help notice the pool:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3678/14286469592_4e18e5582b_c.jpg

However, pool or no pool, it's my understanding every home is
required to reserve a huge portion of the bottom of their water
tanks, I believe, for that wharf hydrant.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2901/14526630374_2281e4c58a_b.jpg

For example, here's the bottom of "my" tank with the fire reserve
marked off at some point years ago where the outflow shuts off:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2928/14341507028_d151d927c9_b.jpg

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:39:45 -0400:

> Would it be a fair guess, that the high mounted
> 10,000 gal tanks, you're supposed to fill them
> during the rainy season, if there is rain?

I don't know how much water most people use, but I emptied
both my tanks a few times this past month to the point that
the water completely shut off to the house (it just dribbled
out the faucet).

It's actually a slightly complicated system, where this little
block of wood determines my fate.

If I can "see" the block of wood, that's bad.
If it goes over a certain line, the water shuts off.
When it goes below another certain line, the water shuts off.

My fate is determined by a little yellow block of wood! :)
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3919/14504597706_a2b48ba502_b.jpg

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 04:58:29 -0700:

> No one other than Hertz? I would think someone would rent potable
> water trucks. People do have to occasionally haul it around.

I only called Hertz in San Jose:
Hertz Equipment Rental 408-451-9320 (1695 N. 1st St, near SJC airport)
Because I just was running a quick survey for the neighbors.

Given the fact the Fire Department idea is a better idea, that
seems like a reasonable approach to take if it works.

Also, the fact that water tanks on the move are "baffled" was
entirely new to me, as I wouldn't want an unbaffled tank to
throw a pickup truck off the cliff (the roads are very windy).

I like the idea of drilling deeper, but, of course, that's an
expensive (albeit more permanent) option.

But, what's worse, all of a sudden, is that I found "my" wells
weren't working. I've had the circuit breakers all off for
about an hour and a half, so, I'll test the flow soon.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3890/14504973976_c17a71d615_b.jpg

[DannyD.]

Pico Rico wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:27:42 -0700:

> which side of San Jose is this neighborhood?

The mountains with the trees!

[Jim Rusling]

"DannyD." <Dan...@is.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>The sloshing tipping over the truck seems to me to be a very
>real concern that I hadn't considered, because, there is no
>guardrail, and you're going down a slope that doesn't end
>for thousands of vertical feet, so, it would behoove us to
>better understand the sloshing effect on a pickup truck filled
>with a 1,000 gallons of water in a tank.

You just need to make sure the tank is full. A full tank will not
slosh very much if at all. You also want the lowest and flattest tank
that will fit to keep the center of gravity as low as possible.
--
Jim Rusling
More or Less Retired
Mustang, OK
My local Weather http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KOKMUSTA4

[DannyD.]

Jim Rusling wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 14:14:27 -0500:

> You just need to make sure the tank is full. A full tank will not
> slosh very much if at all

This is the kind of advice, that, (a) isn't obvious, and (b), if you
don't know it, can win us a Darwin award.

So I greatly appreciate the tidbit, because I hadn't even thought
of the sloshing until it was mentioned.

[DannyD.]

trader_4 wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 04:59:41 -0700:

> Why do you take one of my replies and turn it into three when
> you reply? Going for the record # or posts this month?

I wasn't even thinking about it. Sorry if that offended you.
I merely was replying, and adding pictures, and cutting and pasting,
and running outside to snap a picture, and then replying back, etc.

You must admit that I'm trying to be responsive.

What happens sometimes is that I lose my train of thought, and, that,
with the pictures and details, the replies go deeper than most, so,
it helps to break down the response into multiple posts.

I'll try to keep *all* yours together though, if it bothers you.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:42:12 -0400:

> That might provide the input, so you can put
> water into the tanks? I'd think that in case
> of fire, the FD would need to tap the resident
> tanks, for water.

We all have "wharf hydrants" on our property for the FD.

This is mine:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2914/14526573314_81a4c06b1f_b.jpg

A huge portion of our tanks are "reserved" for this hydrant:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3867/14341478009_5cf56fdbcb_b.jpg

BTW, since "my" tanks seem puny at (much?) less than 5,000 gallons
(I think, based on the writing on these pipes today):
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3902/14341506808_edd8a0630b_b.jpg

I started looking for the unincorporated Santa Clara County code,
but, so far, I only found this, which intimates 10,000 gallons
is pretty normal:
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/planning/Documents/Sample_Site_Plan.pdf

If the calculations on my pipes is correct, then I only have a
dismally puny 3,094 gallons + 1,446 gallons = 4,540 gallons
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2928/14341507028_d151d927c9_b.jpg

[DannyD.]

CRNG wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:37:08 -0500:

> After reading the (IMO many good) suggestions in this thread, it's
> beginning to look like a pretty complex problem.
> I wonder how it affects property values?

I suspect that, as long as the water tanks & wells meet the code
of unincorporated Santa Clara County, then the property values are
not adversely affected.

But, I never understood property values anyway, as houses in the
Silicon Valley that are literally a postage-stamp POS habitually
go for well over a million dollars.

Googling for the relevant residential water tank storage standards,
I see a chart on page 4 of this local Fire Department PDF:
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/docsandapps/Standards/Documents/CFMOW2%20Non%20Res%20Water%20012612.pdf
which intimates that my 5,000 gallons is downright puny and is
the first line of the specifications, which seems to indicate that
it's the absolute bare minimum for even a very low hazard fire area:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2935/14548719933_7bc0e5cb11_b.jpg
And, it's nowhere near what is needed in my very high hazard
fire risk area, so, I must be grandfathered in from decades ago.

This document says that the second tank (which is required) is
for the fire department, but I don't think mine is hooked up
that way (I'll snap some pictures separately):
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/waterandaccess/Land%20Development/Documents/FIRE%20PROTECTION%20WATER%20PDF%20rev%20012512.pdf

Page 6 of this document says I must connect the tanks by 4-inch
steel pipe, which is what I have currently connecting them:
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/docsandapps/Standards/Documents/372891CFMO-W2.pdf

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:48:53 -0400:

> Danny says most HO have 10,000 gal tanks at home,
> so delivery of complete load doesn't sound like a
> problem.

I am positive that almost every house here has BIGGER
and MORE tanks than I do, but, I just looked at mine,
and I seem to have only a puny 5,000 gallons! :(
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3919/14504597706_a2b48ba502_b.jpg

This document seems to apply to homes with their own water supply:
http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/docsandapps/Brochures/Documents/Brochure-WO-Purveyor-6-21-10-A.pdf

It says:
a) You must have at least 2 tanks (which I do),
b) The 2nd tank is for the hydrant (which I don't think mine is)
c) The minimum for my size home is 10,000 gallons (mine is apparently not!)

That document provides the rules on the wharf hydrant, so, I was
correct that at least one hydrant must be on *every* property
(even if they share a well like some of my neighbors apparently do).

So, I think I only have half the water I'm "supposed" to have,
since any decently sized home has to have 10,000 gallons and
mine, based on my look today, are only half of that.

But, the more disturbing thing is that my tanks don't seem to
be plumbed for one-for-the-house, the-other-for-the-hydrant.

Mine seems to be the top half is for the house, and the bottom
half is for the hydrant.

I'll snap pictures to show you after I run the test on the well
where the wells have been turned off for a couple of hours now.
(I'm going to time how long they run before drying up.)

[DannyD.]

LdB wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 11:53:05 -0500:

> I believe they get about 2000 gallons for $70 or $80.

I was quoted $3,800 for 38,000 gallons of water by this outfit:
Franks Water Service, 408-353-1343

So, out here, it's $200 for those 2,000 gallons, which
is more than double what you pay, you lucky guy!

[DannyD.]

DannyD. wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 19:59:04 +0000:

> This document seems to apply to homes with their own water supply:
> http://www.sccgov.org/sites/fmo/docsandapps/Brochures/Documents/Brochure-WO-Purveyor-6-21-10-A.pdf

After a few hours of the circuit breakers being off, the old well
pumped for about two minutes before shutting down (which means
it's almost completely dry), but, luckily, the new well pumped
for 100 gallons before it shut down.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3878/14342651759_7a8370d895_b.jpg

On the topic of the two tanks, one of which is for the fire
department hydrant, I have confirmed that mine is set up
to split horizontally across the two tanks (not by individual tank):
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3874/14342810117_39c7ae7c42_b.jpg

The incoming water from both wells merges into a single pipe
which enters the top of just one of the water tanks:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2902/14342623600_714a42f282_c.jpg

There is no other inlet, so, that water goes into both tanks:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5526/14342685268_0d30413bde_b.jpg

Water exits at a single 4" pipe near the bottom of each tank:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3864/14506159956_5ddfc14e72_b.jpg
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3902/14525868281_acd4e01f32_b.jpg

From there, it goes to both the house & the wharf hydrant:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2901/14526630374_2281e4c58a_b.jpg

So, the *only* thing determining what water goes to the house
and what goes to the hydrant are the shut-off valve electronics:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2902/14342623600_714a42f282_c.jpg
Which is set to turn off the house at about 1/3 of the total water:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2939/14342652059_8473239a06_b.jpg

So, gravity feeds the hydrant; but the house is fed by the
booster pump, which turns off when 1/3 of the 4,500 gallons
is left. Interestingly, about 1 foot is about 500 gallons, so,
at the moment, I'm about 500 gallons from full:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3908/14506159396_3db00f050c_b.jpg

Seems to me, if I "need" water, I can either pull it out of
the fire hydrant (which is below the house) or I can modify
the electronics (somehow) to just *not* turn off when 1/3
of the 4,550 gallons are left.

Does anyone know *how* that could be accomplished?

[CRNG]

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 16:32:05 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote in <lomqm5$ehd$4...@news.albasani.net>

>For "my" two wells, one can't run more than two or three minutes
>(or maybe not even that) before shutting down, even in the late
>winter. The other well, the deeper newer well, can run for ten
>minutes or longer in the late winter, but right now, it's cycling
>every three or so minutes also. So, we all know what that means.

It means you folks are in trouble and it's going to get worse unless
something raises the water table.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[CRNG]

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 19:59:04 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote in <lon6q7$i46$7...@news.albasani.net>

>I am positive that almost every house here has BIGGER
>and MORE tanks than I do, but, I just looked at mine,
>and I seem to have only a puny 5,000 gallons! :(

Calculate the volume of your tanks here

http://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-cylinder

use feet (not inches) and multiple the vol by 7.5 to give you gallons.

[CRNG]

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 17:44:43 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote in <lomuua$ehd$7...@news.albasani.net>

>I am not the expert, but, I think the well runs dry every day
>all day. I only go out there when there is a problem, but, for
>example, my main well wasn't pumping anything when I just cycled
>it, and my old well ran for just a few seconds (barely enough
>to spin the water meter a tenth of a revolution).

I think you are correct. Your pumps are shutting down because they
are running dry.

[CRNG]

On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 18:52:41 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD."
<Dan...@is.invalid> wrote in <lon2tp$ehd$9...@news.albasani.net>

>I don't know how much water most people use, but I emptied
>both my tanks a few times this past month to the point that
>the water completely shut off to the house (it just dribbled
>out the faucet).

Average *in house* water usage is 50 gal/day/person. That is without
any conservation. That covers washing, cooking, toilets and all other
activities that occur in the house.

[DannyD.]

CRNG wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 19:28:54 -0500:

> It means you folks are in trouble and it's going to get worse unless
> something raises the water table.

Interestingly, I just found out that a few of the neighbors already dug
deeper wells. It seems, anecdotally, the 200 foot wells have been drying
up over the years, and the 300 to 500 feet wells are predominating.

I don't have enough information to draw solid conclusions, but one
hypothesis would be that the water table dropped 100 feet in the past
decade or so.

[rbowman]

Stormin Mormon wrote:

> Don't know. I'd dare to guess you will go through
> rear axles and transmissions at rapid rate. Rented
> truck might be best.

1000 gallons of water on a flatbed gooseneck trailer isn't going to weigh
much more than the dry weight of most 30' fifth wheel trailers. If anyone
has a fifthwheel capable rig, hauling water shouldn't be a problem.

[DannyD.]

CRNG wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 19:28:54 -0500:

> Average *in house* water usage is 50 gal/day/person. That is without
> any conservation. That covers washing, cooking, toilets and all other
> activities that occur in the house.

That's interesting, and I thank you for that number of 50 gallons/day.

I just measured my well after letting it sit for 5 hours turned off:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3851/14508304686_090a6deb9a_b.jpg

OLD WELL:
- Lasted 1 minute and 30 seconds before running dry!

NEW WELL:
- Lasted from 8:32pm to 8:54pm (22 minutes) before shutting off.
- It was pumping at a little more than 5 gallons a minute at first.
- And then dropped to a little less than 5 gallons a minute after 10 minutes.
- Total was 90 gallons in those 22 minutes before the pump shut down.
- So, it averaged 4 gallons per minute before shutting off.

Of course, the 200 sprinklers & the pool take their toll of water ...

[DannyD.]

CRNG wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 19:28:54 -0500:

> I think you are correct.
> Your pumps are shutting down because they are running dry.

I'm pretty sure they're running dry, because one, for sure, is only
running for less than 2 minutes before shutting down, even after
having been off for five hours!

Here, you see it has "tripped" by the red light:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5487/14528155911_6c08be46fd_b.jpg

The other well, after I allowed it to refill for 5 hours, lasted
22 minute s, but I timed the water meter and it was going at about
10 seconds faster than 5 gallons per minute at first, then about
at the halfway mark it was about 15 seconds less than five gallons
a minute, until it finally shut down at 22 minutes, averaging at
about 4 gallons per minute.

But, that was after a 5 hour quiet period. In practice, the well
*tries* to pump all day so the 'rest' period is only a half hour
or so between shutoffs.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 11:26 AM, Harry K wrote:
>> become more standardized over the years. My advice is make sure you
>> know what threads are on the hydrant(s) you would use.
>
>> Good luck.
>
> That bit the city fire department badly. about 4am one night
the city fire department garage caught fire (later determined to
be caused by a plugged in extension cord hanging over a nail).
All the trucks were inside and could not be gotten out...except
one, the antique "Wimpy", a truck from the 20s or 30s stored in
another shed. Fully operational and full of vintage equipment...
none that was of any use as the connections did not mate up with
the fire hydrants. We lost the garage and all fire department
equipment. By the time other agencies got there all they could
do was keep the fire from spreading.
>
> Harry K
>

That is seriously tragic. I bet a lot of FF were crying
into their beer that night.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 12:18 PM, DannyD. wrote:
>
> I just got an update from the divorced lady. She is
> contracting out to get her rather shallow (only 300 feet)
> well drilled deeper. The next in line is a lady whose
> husband recently died, and her house is under foreclosure.

CY: Since no one in the area has water, maybe that's a
waste of money, to drill deeper into dry earth?
>
> Her well (as is mine) is tripping every few minutes, so,
> she's conserving water (as am I) and hoping the water supply
> lasts until the next forcasted rain (which will come in
> October or November).

CY: That's a long time to wait.

>
> As for me, I filled the pool, so, "my" supply, while intermittent,
> was good enough to last, but, there are vineyards here which
> must be using a LOT of water ... so it may simply be a matter
> of location.

CY: Wonder if the vineyards people would consider some
money to divert the water to local homes?

>
> I don't know, but, for me, and for those without the ready
> capital to drill deeper, I'd go for the temporary solution of
> trucking the water up the hill.

CY: Might be the answer. Sounds like it would be
rough on the vehicles, drivers, etc.

>
> The sloshing tipping over the truck seems to me to be a very
> real concern that I hadn't considered, because, there is no
> guardrail, and you're going down a slope that doesn't end
> for thousands of vertical feet, so, it would behoove us to
> better understand the sloshing effect on a pickup truck filled
> with a 1,000 gallons of water in a tank.

CY: Worth knowing. I've heard that full tank is
much less of an issue.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 12:32 PM, DannyD. wrote:
>
> However, *most* of the neighbors are not complaining, yet one has
> a well which (she claims) is a thousand feet or more deep! (I find
> that hard to believe). Another just told me he had a well drilled
> which is 500 feet deep. There are vinyards here, so, they *must*
> be using a lot of irrigation water (although most have a run-off
> collection system for interring the winter rains underground).
>

Wonder what's with the vineyards? I'd go ask
them what's their source of water.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 12:33 PM, DannyD. wrote:
> Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sat, 28 Jun 2014 08:05:11 -0400:
>
>> Anyone want to make a SWAG as to the time for one shuttle?
>> More than anyone expects, I'm sure.
>
> This is good information to think about, as the main intent
> is to plan ahead about our options, if the drought continues
> in force.
>
> We can rest assured there will be no rain until about November,
> but, after that, we won't know what will happen.
>
> Another year of no rain would be telling.
>
Ideally, if there are enough concerned people,
folks can drive up the hill with the five gal
water jugs from the department store. A few of
those in the kitchen for cooking, drinking, etc
might reduce the strain a bit. Also good exercise.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/28/2014 2:52 PM, DannyD. wrote:
> It's actually a slightly complicated system, where this little
> block of wood determines my fate.
>
> If I can "see" the block of wood, that's bad.
> If it goes over a certain line, the water shuts off.
> When it goes below another certain line, the water shuts off.
>
> My fate is determined by a little yellow block of wood! :)
> https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3919/14504597706_a2b48ba502_b.jpg
>

Looks more like a big grey tank, to me.

Sounds like your aquifier is used up. Which is not good.
And at the top of a hill, not likely to come back any
time soon.

[trader_4]

You might want to consider a timer to better manage the on/off cycle.
You have a protection system on the pump, but still it can't be good
for the pump to keep starting every 30 mins to just run two mins.
I would think there is more wear/tear on the pump that way, and more
electricity used too. With a timer and some experimenting, you could
probably come up with a much more optimal cycling schedule. IDK what
the effect on the life of the pump is with the very short cycling,
but I know a timer is cheap compared to pulling and replacing a pump
on a 400ft well.

[Pat]

Could any of your neighbors' pumps be pumping from the same
underground water? In other words, are your 5 hour rest periods
really rest periods? If you repeat that experiment at 5:00 am, will
the results be different? Now that I think about it, I can't even be
sure 5:00 am would make a difference since everybody's pumps might be
running 24/7 except for the shutdowns due to running dry. Sorry for
the rambling - I guess my only point is the rest periods might not be
rest periods if, for example, multiple 400' wells are using the exact
same aquafer.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Sun, 29 Jun 2014 06:37:22 -0400:

> Wonder what's with the vineyards? I'd go ask
> them what's their source of water.

They have deep wells.

[Stormin Mormon]

On 6/29/2014 7:43 AM, Pat wrote:
> Could any of your neighbors' pumps be pumping from the same
> underground water? In other words, are your 5 hour rest periods
> really rest periods? If you repeat that experiment at 5:00 am, will
> the results be different? Now that I think about it, I can't even be
> sure 5:00 am would make a difference since everybody's pumps might be
> running 24/7 except for the shutdowns due to running dry. Sorry for
> the rambling - I guess my only point is the rest periods might not be
> rest periods if, for example, multiple 400' wells are using the exact
> same aquafer.

From the sounds of it, (40 acre lots), the houses are
spread apart. Still, aquafier, might be spread over
many houses. The 5 AM test run sounds interesting.

[bob haller]

I have a friend who lived in a neighborhood where everyones well was going dry/

So the neighbors got together and paid to have one super deep well drilled sharing the costs, and one neighbor used his backhoe to dig and install water lines to the 7 or 8 homes in the group. he didnt have to pay for the drilling.

my buddy lived in this neighborhood for over 10 years. everyone was pleased. except probably the well driller who would of prefered dilling 8 sererate wells.

my buddy finally moved his wife wanted a 2 story home. insisted on it.

shortly afer the move both husband and wife had knee surgery, making their new fancy multi story home a real chore to live in......

[bob haller]

On Friday, June 27, 2014 5:16:36 PM UTC-4, DannyD. wrote:
> Do you have experience or ideas for trucking potable water to a residence?
>
>
>
> We haven't had rain in a year or so, and some of my neighbor's wells are running
>
> dry. They asked me to figure out an efficient way to get water to them because
>
> the bulk water delivery companies are really lousy on service & costs.
>
>
>
> The San Jose Water Company sells water out of the fire hydrants at $2.70 per
>
> CCF (i.e., $2.71 per 748 gallons) after we rent a "portable meter", either a
>
> 1-inch portable meter (output is a male 3/4-inch garden hose thread) at
>
> $29.48/month, or a 3-inch portable meter (output is a male 2-1/2 inch firehose
>
> thread) at $176.98 a month.
>
>
>
> The returnable deposit for the portable meter is $400 for the 1-inch meter,
>
> and $1,550 for the 3-inch meter, which includes the hydrant wrench & hoses
>
> (although they suggest hoses from Royal Brass at http://rbisj.com).
>
>
>
> It turns out that most, if not all, of the bulk water delivery companies
>
> use this method to obtain their water, so, what you're paying for is the
>
> trucking.
>
>
>
> Hertz Equipment Rental in San Jose rents a flatbed, which requires only a
>
> normal class C drivers license, for $245/day, which will hold about 8,000
>
> pounds (about 1,000 gallons of water in a plastic tank). The first 50 miles
>
> are free, and then it's 25 cents a mile thereafter.
>
>
>
> They don't recommend the 2,000 gallon 'water truck' which requires a Class A
>
> (commercial) drivers license, and costs $459/day, plus 30 cents a mile, because
>
> there is no telling what water was in there prior, so you can't drink from it.
>
>
>
> A quick estimate for the costs & logistics for a day's rental might be something like:
>
> a) $5 for each 1,000 gallons of water from SJWC
>
> b) $50 for 1 day rental of the 2-1/2 inch output 3" portable meter
>
> c) $250 for 1 day flatbed truck rental from Hertz
>
> d) $500 for 1 brand new 1,000 gallon water tank from Tractor Supply Company (or equivalent)
>
> e) $100 sales tax on the new water tank & other incidentals
>
>
>
> Any other helpful suggestions for me to provide to the neighbors for trucking
>
> in potable water during the drought?

Negoiate with someone on city water to be your water source:)

offer to pay their water bill, and you use their home to pickup water from....

this would completely elminate the water meter rental fee:) and all of you share the water bill.

although you could try talking to the water company about expanding service to your now drying up area....