Heat pump in basement?
rgol...@gmail.com
in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
Richard
dpb
Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
rest of the house. Not feasible at all.
In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).
--
rgol...@gmail.com
I am not sure what you mean by small volume. The basement is 1400
square feet, 8 feet high and the floor is 6 feet below grade. Are you
implying that the basement would cool so much that the heat pump would
not work efficiently?
Richard
dpb
Of course...what's the volume of the living space you're trying to
heat/cool in comparison? On top of that, since the area is closed,
there's no where for the now heated/cooled air to replenish from so next
cycle you're starting from essentially the ending point of the last.
Every degree you change the temperature in the living area will have to
make a corresponding change in the temperature of an equal air volume
plus the efficiency factor--the old saying of "you can't beat Mother
Nature, the 2nd Law says you can't even break even" is still true.
It simply can not work...
--
rgol...@gmail.com
walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
which they are in contact with is 55 degrees? or so, there would seem
to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
cold.. I will, however, consider what you have said.
Anyway, it was just a thought to try and save fossil fuels and money.
I should have pointed out that my house is very well insulated and we
keep things cool in the winter and supplement my gas furnace with
electric heaters. My total heating bill for last winter was less than
$600.(natural gas at $1.40/therm).
Richard
jack
<rgol...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1a584870-783e-4d50...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
franz fripplfrappl
At one time I had a Thermastor heat pump water heater in the basement.
It worked quite well to heat the water. Not only did it dehumidify the
basement efficiently, it also turned it into a walk-in cooler.
Basement temp ended up around 55F.
--
=================================================
Franz Fripplfrappl
S. Barker
basement, then you'd have 32 degree floors and frozen plumbing.
s
<rgol...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:204ec32b-f0c6-4151...@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
HVACTECH2
It would never work, Think about it, what does a heat pump do? your
basement would end up as cold as outside.
Caesar Romano
<rgol...@gmail.com> wrote Re Re: Heat pump in basement?:
>I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
>walls, they are concrete block with no insulation.
The replenishment heat from the walls won't be able to conduct from
the earth outside the walls fast enough to keep up with the heat pump.
The "heat" flows like this:
Earth (1) ==> Basement Walls (2) ==> Basement Air (3) ==> Heat Pump
(4)
Heat flow from (1) to (3) will be much slower than from (3) to (4).
The only way to compensate for that would be for the volume of (3) to
be much larger than the volume you are heating.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>rgol...@gmail.com wrote:
>> dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
>>> rgold...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I live in the upper Hudson River Valley(Albany, NY). The temperature
>>>> in the winter hovers around 25 degrees for about 2 months. My full
>>>> basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
>>>> impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
>>>> installing an air source heat pump in the basement?
Good idea, esp if it's damp. If it isn't, you might use a soaker hose and
a solenoid valve and humidistat to keep the basement air 50% RH while you
put a window AC through a stairwell wall, with the warm side in the living
space. The main mechanism for upward heatflow in soil is evaporation from
lower soil layers and vapor movement through voids and condensation above.
>>> Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
>>> rest of the house...
That's irrelevant, since the heat would come from the ground.
>>> In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
>>> another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).
That also sounds good, with a large cheap swimming pool in the basement with
a thick layer of ice on top and a little fresh water flow as needed. The
Climatemaster 27 is a nice $5K 3-ton water source heat pump with a COP of 5.
>It simply can not work...
Balderdash :-)
Nick
jme...@columbus.rr.com
That space will warm up as you cool the living area (cool down as
you heat the living area). That means it shortly will become very hot
or cold and will not allow the heat pump to function efficiently.
Your idea is a good one however. It is possible to put long pipes
into the ground and to move air through them to supply the heat pump.
Those pipes need to be about six foot below grade and you need a lot.
Local conditions will determine if the idea will work for you. I
have seen several people around me use that system.
jme...@columbus.rr.com
> dpb <n...@non.net> wrote:
> >rgold...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >>> Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
> >>> rest of the house...
>
> That's irrelevant, since the heat would come from the ground.
>
> >>> In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
> >>> another. They're great--had one (Water Furnace brand, one of the best).
>
> Nick
That is true, but even without insulation the surface area of the
basement is not large enough to move enough heat. It also is a
problem because over weeks, the temperature of the surrounding ground
will become saturated (heat or cold) and will no longer be efficient.
The standard method is to bury pipes and pump air or liquid though
them. They should cover a large area depending on local ground
conditions and heat - cooling loads.
Claude Hopper
You would turn your basement into a walk in freezer.
--
Claude Hopper ? 3 :) 7/8
dpb
...
>> It simply can not work...
>
> Balderdash :-)
As proposed as an air-exchange unit w/ the basement volume, no way...
--
dpb
...
> I am assuming that the replenishment of heat comes from the basement
> walls, they are concrete block with no insulation. If the ground in
> which they are in contact with is 55 degrees? or so, there would seem
> to be a lot of heat transfer if the air in the basement got very
> cold.. I will, however, consider what you have said.
That's nice to assume but don't believe it'll be adequate. No estimate
of the size of house to heat and I'm assuming it's desirable to keep the
basement at something near a habitable condition.
If there is no restriction whatsoever on that, I it could manage to be a
contributor but would imo not be the economical use of the investment.
Of course, besides the size of the heat sink/source issue, the outdoor
unit would noisy if installed in the house.
The ground source, otoh, would be quite economical to operate.
--
Mark
it is an interesting question...
before writing it off.... compare... what is the surface area of the
basment walls compared to the surface area of the buried pipes...?
Mark
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>> dpb =A0<n...@non.net> wrote:
>> >rgold...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> >>> Far too small a volume--you'd heat or cool the basement faster than the
>> >>> rest of the house...
>>
>> That's irrelevant, since the heat would come from the ground.
>>
>> >>> In that environment, your best bet is ground source of one kind or
>>
>> Nick
>
> ... even without insulation the surface area of the basement is not large
> enough to move enough heat.
Looks like you didn't read the part of my posting you snipped.
Nick
dpb
...
> before writing it off.... compare... what is the surface area of the
> basment walls compared to the surface area of the buried pipes...?
More directly to the point is the comparison of the conductivity and
heat capacity of the soil vis a vis the air.
The problem of yet not knowing even the size of the heated space
relative to the basement is also limiting in having a clue as to the
sink/source sizing.
--
hal...@aol.com
the heat from the living area would sink into the basement...
what the OP needs is a ground water heat pump.......
and lots and lots of insulation!
jme...@columbus.rr.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sorry it still will not work. The efficiency will drop to almost
nothing. You don't have enough exchange area.
dpb
...
> the heat from the living area would sink into the basement...
That's occurring anyway and certainly not by "sinking".
> what the OP needs is a ground water heat pump.......
Which, if you will read my first response is precisely what I recommended...
> and lots and lots of insulation!
Given the level of cost he claims for last winter, it would seem either
the house is very small, the setpoint is extremely low, or the house is
pretty well insulated. Then again, maybe it's global warming and the
winter was mild last year...
--
mencarj
http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736-.htm
mencarj wrote:
rgol...@gmail.com wrote:
Personally I think it will work ,as a HVAC Contractor with 35 years
experience and just as many working/installing Heat Pump systems, here\'s
my opinion, First they make a air source heat pump using a 12000 btu air
source heat pump to heat hot water, Rheem is one brand, shows it can be
installed in basement.So if you have a small unit say a 18000 or 24000 BTU
and it clearly works for the Rheem domestic hot water heater why would it
not work for a slightly larger unit. Also if you did install the outdoor
unit in the basement and have the duct work in the basement ,put in couple
a three supply registers to dump warm air into the basement with a small
return in the return duct in the basement, if it still does not work try
rejecting the discharged air (using duct ) to a casement window sending
the air outside.
-------------------------------------
Mark
> responding tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736...
>
why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?
Mark
Michael Dobony
Look at how a heat pump or AC works (heat pump is AC in reverse). One coil
gets hot and the other gets cold. If you want a 20 degree rise in temp
upstairs you will get a 20 degree drop in the basement. That is assuming
100% efficiency. Eventually the basement will have to get as cold as the
outside or colder in order to get a sufficient heat rise in your living
space. At about 35 degrees or so a heat pump does not work very efficiently
and needs extra heat.
mencarj
http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736-.htm
mencarj wrote:
Mark wrote:
> On Mar 5, 5:52=A0pm, mencarj_at_yahoo_dot_...@foo.com (mencarj) wrote:
>> responding
>> tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-baseme=
> nt-316736...
>>
> why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?
> Mark
Because I\'m new to the thread
-------------------------------------
Smitty Two
<99161e92-d69b-41dd...@u3g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
Mark <mako...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 5:52 pm, mencarj at yahoo dot ...@foo.com (mencarj) wrote:
> > responding
> > tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736...
> >
>
>
> why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?
>
> Mark
It's because he's posting from that fucking "for profit" usenet mirror,
the home moaner's club. About the most fucked up way to get to usenet
other than using google, btw.
dpb
> On Sat, 05 Mar 2011 22:52:57 +0000, mencarj wrote:
>> rgol...@gmail.com wrote:
...
>>> basement stays around 55 degrees. I know that it is considered very
>>> impractical to install it outside. What are the pros and cons of
>>> installing an air source heat pump in the basement? The relative mild
>>> temperature there should allow for very efficient heating.
>> Personally I think it will work ,as a HVAC Contractor with 35 years
>> experience and just as many working/installing Heat Pump systems, here\'s
>> my opinion, First they make a air source heat pump using a 12000 btu air
...
> Look at how a heat pump or AC works (heat pump is AC in reverse). One coil
> gets hot and the other gets cold. If you want a 20 degree rise in temp
> upstairs you will get a 20 degree drop in the basement. That is assuming
> 100% efficiency. Eventually the basement will have to get as cold as the
> outside or colder in order to get a sufficient heat rise in your living
And as well that's assuming the same volume of heated space as compared
to the basement (which may be reasonably close for a ranch style w/ a
full unfinished basement, but for anything w/ partially finished
basement or larger heated area in comparison, the ratio would be <1:1 by
that ratio of volumes.
It's a worthless idea; there's not even remotely close to the required
heat source/sink heat capacity available; the water heater idea works
only owing to it being a much lower demand in comparison to space heat.
--
Tony Miklos
> On Mar 5, 5:52 pm, mencarj_at_yahoo_dot_...@foo.com (mencarj) wrote:
>>
>
>
> why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?
>
> Mark
He comes from the hellish place called the home owners shrub.
Tony Miklos
> responding to
It will work great if you want the entire basement to be a walk in
freezer/cooler.
Tony Miklos
> responding to
> mencarj wrote:
>
> Mark wrote:
>
>> On Mar 5, 5:52=A0pm, mencarj_at_yahoo_dot_...@foo.com (mencarj) wrote:
>>> responding
>> nt-316736...
>>>
>
>
>> why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?
>
>> Mark
>
>
> Because I\'m new to the thread
> -------------------------------------
You got here the Dilbert way. Study up "usenet", f*ck the
homeclonershub and come join us the "real" way. Using the
homeownersclub has a habit of making smart people look stupid. Not your
fault, just a mistake. Use usenet.
tra...@optonline.net
> responding tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736...
>
> mencarj wrote:
So, with 35 years of HVAC experience, one of your solutions is to put
3 supply registers in the basement along with the heat pump? One of
the stupidist things posted here in a long time. Why not put a
windmill
on the roof of your car to generate electric to power the car. We
could
all drive for free.
Ohioguy
> and come join us the "real" way. Using the homeownersclub has a habit of
> making smart people look stupid. Not your fault, just a mistake. Use
> usenet.
At least give him a more concrete suggestion.
1) Download a program called Mozilla Thunderbird. Install it.
2) Sign up for an account at:
http://www.usenet-news.net/index1.php?url=get
(they have a 10 Gigabyte account for 5 bucks, which will last you
about 20 years)
3) set up Mozilla Thunderbird with "us.usenet-news.net" as account name
4) set up a fake email address, so you don't get spammed
5) subscribe to groups you like
6) start posting and reading
Ohioguy
unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer.
For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before
pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then
have it go through a radiator. Behind the radiator you could have a
squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. Your only cost to maintain the air
temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient
squirrel cage blower. This could make a heat pump very efficient.
Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply
use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever
fluid is in the pipes. That would be a geothermal system.
The Daring Dufas
Wut's a fake Email address, II didn't know you could get one. :-)
TDD
harry
There's nothing wrong with a heatpump in the basement. But the
evaporator needs to be outside.
The Daring Dufas
Errrrrrrrr! The condensing unit which technically turns into an
evaporator when the reversing valve is activated is still called
the condenser because it's the outdoor component. If you walked
into a supply house and asked for an evaporator, you'll get the
indoor coil.
TDD
tra...@optonline.net
It's an interesting idea to use the basement as a heat source. But
as
you point out, the real question is how
much the basement temperature will drop. Dropping that temperature
is going to take some heat away from the house through colder floors,
more heat loss through basement ducts, etc.
And another big issue I see is summer. Almost all heat pumps also
serves as AC. So, in the summer, you're raising the basement
temperature and again, how much is the key question. That would
obviously depend on the size of the basement. Large, open, full
basement would be the best case. Even then, I think it's highly
questionable.
harry
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
There's three components. The pump/ compressor and two heat
exchangers.
The pump can be in the basement. One heat exchanger indoors and one
outdors.
Putting a heat exchanger in the basement is stupid.
The Daring Dufas
Not stupid if it's mounted on top of the air handler and connected to
the duct work. :-)
TDD
harry
Well then you'll need a bigger/imcreased power fan to overcome the
resistance of the ducts. Not to mention added expense.
If you were talking ground source, the water/refrigerant heat
exchanger could be indoors.
If it was a wet heating sytem, well there's another water/refrigerant
heat exchanger could be indoors too.
nahcr
nahcr wrote:
I live in a smallish older townhome near Washington DC. There are 4
connected units so that the total basement (part basement but mostly crawl
space) is about 8700 cubic feet. The basement is about half underground and
there are no divisions between the units. The above ground area has some
kind of foam type insulation. It is cement floored with concrete block walls
and a cement ceiling. The basement is not heated or cooled but the water
pipes have not frozen in the 12 years I have been here and I have never
heard anyone complain that their pipes freeze. There is also a radon system
in the basement because of a mild radon problem (less than 10 pci)
The area that I want to heat and cool is about 17000 cubic feet. The primary
heat source for about half that area would be radiant floor heating.
The basement is not and cannot be used for anything except water heaters,
water pipes and telephone utilities.
Under those circumstances would putting a heat pump or two heat pumps in the
basement make sense? I would like to do it for aesthetic reasons primarily,
but also because it seems to me that even if the heat pumps cool the
basement in the winter or heat it in the summer it doesn’t matter since the
space can’t be used, and because of the large volume of basement space, the
air going to the heat exchanger would at least be somewhat warmer than the
exterior air in winter and cooler in the summer). My only concern would be
if somehow the heat pumps could make the area go below freezing. Also,
during the summer, there could be some condensate which would have to be
removed.
Dan Espen
I'm not a heating specialist, but I can figure out that there's not
enough of a heat sink in the basement air to accomplish anything.
Heat pumps are done with long lengths of tubing underground because of
the huge thermal mass of the ground.
--
Dan Espen
EXT
"Dan Espen" <des...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:icsj936...@home.home...
But a basement would not have enough heat to warm a house before it was
cooled below the heat pumps ability to extract heat.
Dan Espen
But we agree that a basement isn't going to cut it.
--
Dan Espen
nahcr
nahcr wrote:
unusual because first in proportion to the size of the house, the basement is very large, and second, the basement cannot be used except to run pipes and keep the water heaters for the 4 units. I would like to put the pumps there because they are ugly and that will get them out of my yard.
If the heat pump worked just as well in the basement as outside, i would be quite satisfied. Is there some reason why this would not be true?
Is there any danger to the occupants in putting the pumps in the basement? If the temperature outside went down to say 10 degrees F on the coldest day of the year, would pipes in the basement freeze because of the heat pump?
.-.
"nahcr" <caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote in message
news:bcf69$50887d41$45499b77$16...@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
outside, your heat pump can exchange an infinite number of BTUs from the air
since it just grabs "new" air with a new supply of BTUs with its fan as
needed. So, it will work whether the outside air is warm or cold pushing the
BTUs in or out of the outside air (and your house). If you put the heat
pump in your basement, the BTUs the heat pump can grab are limited by what
the walls, floor and other materials contain or can transfer in/out. Since
the BTUs can't easily flow in or out of the basement volume of air, walls
and concrete, the heat transfer is not limited by the pump but by its source
of BTUs.
On a hot or cold day when your heat pump is trying to cool or heat your
house, it will run out of BTUs that can be pulled or pushed into your
basement. It then loses efficiency and will just run without doing any
heating or cooling. Meanwhile, your basement will either be way too hot or
way too cold. You may not care what the temperature of the basement is, but
your pipes could freeze on a cold day outdoors as the heat pump sucks heat
from the basement to put into the house. On a warm day outside, the heat
build up in the basement could be dangerous and damage wiring or the house
structure. Or, the heat could simply make the heat pump so inefficient, it
wouldn't cool the house; it would just waste electricity.
If you could fill your basement with water which has a much higher BTU
capacity per unit volume than air and concrete and use that water for your
heat pump, you might make your idea work; but there's also a good chance
that you would have a block of ice in the basement for much of the winter
and a pool of steaming water for much of the summer.
A neighbor of mine installed a ground water heat pump to heat and cool his
house. For a house of about 2500 square feet and well insulated, it takes
the water from 5 wells to supply enough BTUs winter and summer to keep the
house comfortable. It's very energy efficient because the high volume of
well water, either coming or going is always about 50 degrees F +/- 10
degrees., so it can either give or take plenty of BTUs, but drilling the
wells was expensive.
Tomsic
>
>
>
Bob F
> A neighbor of mine installed a ground water heat pump to heat and
> cool his house. For a house of about 2500 square feet and well
> insulated, it takes the water from 5 wells to supply enough BTUs
> winter and summer to keep the house comfortable. It's very energy
> efficient because the high volume of well water, either coming or
> going is always about 50 degrees F +/- 10 degrees., so it can either
> give or take plenty of BTUs, but drilling the wells was expensive.
>
tra...@optonline.net
> "nahcr" <caedfaa9ed1216d60ef78a6f660f5f85_7...@example.com> wrote in message
>
> news:bcf69$50887d41$45499b77$16...@news.flashnewsgroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > responding to
> >http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/heat-pump-in-basement-316736...
>
> - Show quoted text -
tons or BTUS those heat pumps would be. I don't know heat
pump ratings, but they are going to have to be in the range to
heat a house. So for those 4 small condos in DC, let's say the
total capacity needed is 100,000 BTUs. A typical window AC
unit is 6,000. So, when you're using the heat pump to heat
the house, it's like having 17 window AC units pumping cold
air into the basement. It doesn't sound like it would take very
long for that to drop the temperature way down. And the lower
the temp, the less efficient the heat pump is, the less heat you
get out, etc. In the summer, you would have the reverse, with
the equivalent of 17 window AC units pumping their heat into
the basement.
nahcr
nahcr wrote:
.-.
"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k6a7ku$khb$1...@dont-email.me...
supply and the others are return and which is which depends upon the water
temperature as well as what mode the heat pump is in (heat or cool).
Tomsic
DanG
supply and return, each well has two pipes that are connected at the
bottom of the well. When the pumps are running the water goes down one
pipe and up the other to the next well. The HVAC units are either
extracting the heat or the cool from the loop based on the thermostat
requirements. If the well field is properly sized the circuit sheds
heat into the well field strata during the summer or heats the loop in
the winter. The idea is to provide close to a constant temperature in
the loop that is much closer to the desired room temperature than the
delta using outside air. It takes a lot more Btu's to heat a room using
the outside air at 0* than to work with a 55* loop.
--
___________________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven
rai...@outlook.com
When temperature is 0 F outside basement is in low 30's.
Water temperature is in low 40's.
I am wondering if there is enough heat in basement floor & walls to heat 1,000 square feet on upper floor with heat pump.
trader_4
upstairs when the basement is in the low 30s, it's probably not going to
work. The system won't have to run very long before the basement air
temp drops, you're turning it into a freezer. And the lower it goes,
the less efficient a heat pump is. That is unless the basement is
much larger than the 1000 sq ft. What other choices are there for heat?
mako...@yahoo.com
> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 3:12:56 PM UTC-4, rai...@outlook.com wrote:
> > I have basement with over 13,000 square feet w/ 9 feet to upper floor.
> > When temperature is 0 F outside basement is in low 30's.
> > Water temperature is in low 40's.
> > I am wondering if there is enough heat in basement floor & walls to heat 1,000 square feet on upper floor with heat pump.
>
>> That is unless the basement is
> much larger than the 1000 sq ft. What other choices are there for heat?
Is that a typo?
If it really is a 13:1 ratio, it might work.
m
Trava
--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/heat-pump-in-basement-316736-.htm
bud--
> And what if you take a cold air from the pump directly out with pipes,so
> it does not cool down basement?
>
for that air comes from outside into the house. Do you suppose that
would cool the house, the opposite of what you are trying to do?
The fix is to seal the house so there is no infiltration. It will have
to be structurally reinforced to withstand the resulting vacuum. Also
residents will have to wear space suits.
----------
I was shocked, SHOCKED, to learn that the rest of this thread is 13 and
3 years old.
Leo Isenteze
> And what if you take a cold air from the pump directly out with pipes,so
> it does not cool down basement?
>
a clueless response.