15A outlets on 20A circuits
Mikepier
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.
I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.
RBM
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:226446f4-266c-43ca...@f25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through
RBM
"RBM" <rb...@live.com> wrote in message
news:4cb44c71$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine
>
>
tra...@optonline.net
> "RBM" <r...@live.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4cb44c71$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Mikepier" <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?
And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.
Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?
N8N
I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit
that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that
it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that
current. However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the
case.
nate
Mikepier
>
> - Show quoted text -
But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one
15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now
you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each
outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A?
Steve Barker
they been handling it for years in every house i've ever seen. I've
never seen a 20a outlet installed. Ever.
--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email
bud--
> On Oct 12, 9:21 am, N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 12, 8:56 am, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" <r...@live.com> wrote:
>>>> "RBM" <r...@live.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:4cb44c71$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
>>>>> "Mikepier" <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:226446f4-266c-43ca...@f25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
>>>>>> all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
>>>>>> 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
>>>>>> I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.
>>>>>> I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
>>>>>> outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
>>>>>> outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
>>>>>> microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
>>>>>> get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.
>>>>> 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
>>>>> protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
>>>>> amp feed through
>>>> Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
>>>> dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine
>>>>
>>> any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
>>> outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
>>> one?
To make sure the distinction is clear, if you have a 20A circuit and
there is only a single receptacle (not duplex) on the whole circuit it
can't be a 15A one. If it was, the receptacle would not allow the
circuit to be used at 20A. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but
IMHO a reasonable restriction.
>>> And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
>>> outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
>>> 15 amp circuit.
You can't install any 20A receptacles on a 15A circuit. If you did, you
could plug in devices with a rating of over 15A (has a 20A plug) on the
15A circuit.
>>> Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?
>> I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit
>> that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that
>> it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that
>> current. However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the
>> case.
Presumably a device with a 15A plug would not draw 18A. A plug-in strip
is likely to have a circuit breaker. (You could with an extension cord
with 3 outlets.)
>>
>> nate
>
> But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one
> 15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now
> you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each
> outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A?
Each half is rated 15A and the whole device is rated 20A. Also rated 20A
wire-through. (As a practical matter, I suspect it would be hard to make
a receptacle that would be OK at 15A but not at 20A.)
--
bud--
Roy
==
You'd better re-read the code book. There is a difference with "split"
receptacles in wiring procedure. If you plug two appliances and each
are drawing 15 amp into an unsplit duplex receptacle which is serviced
by one duplex cable, you will blow the circuit breaker. If the split
receptacle is serviced by two different hot leads each appliance will
draw 15 amp and the load is 15 amp on each HALF of the receptacle.
Most code books that I've seen diagram how to do kitchen circuits as
most "counter" circuits require 20 amp breakers.
tra...@optonline.net
And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for
you later, but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a
distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more
than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A
outlet on 15A circuit. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the
code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal
to the circuit rating. Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15
amp circuit.
I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. But, at the end of the
day, the critical thing is that the circuit breaker be correctly
sized.
Stormin Mormon
the GFCI and you notice the next morning. Not good.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"RBM" <rb...@live.com> wrote in message
news:4cb44c71$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected,
Stormin Mormon
sockets. Which is a good thing. Helps keep people from using heavy
loads on cheap sockets.
The more pricey 15 amp sockets, the screw tightens two pieces of metal
to grab the wire. These, I like. If you're plugging and unplugging
frequently, I'd use the $2 sockets, not the 50 cent sockets.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:226446f4-266c-43ca...@f25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Mikepier
> The more pricey 15 amp sockets, the screw tightens two pieces of metal
> to grab the wire. These, I like. If you're plugging and unplugging
> frequently, I'd use the $2 sockets, not the 50 cent sockets.
The outlets will be for stuff that will always be plugged in such as
fridge, microwave/range hood, and the outlets inside the wall cabinets
( for the undercabinet lighting).
dpb
> On Oct 12, 11:07 am, Roy <wila...@hotmail.com> wrote:
...
>> You'd better re-read the code book. There is a difference with "split"
>> receptacles in wiring procedure. If you plug two appliances and each
>> are drawing 15 amp into an unsplit duplex receptacle which is serviced
>> by one duplex cable, you will blow the circuit breaker. If the split
>> receptacle is serviced by two different hot leads each appliance will
>> draw 15 amp and the load is 15 amp on each HALF of the receptacle.
>> Most code books that I've seen diagram how to do kitchen circuits as
>> most "counter" circuits require 20 amp breakers.- Hide quoted text -
>>
...
> The only code book that counts is the NEC, and it doesn't show
> diagrams of how to do kitchen circuits or anything else for that
> matter.
>
> As for the question about whether a 15 amp duplex receptacle can
> handle two seperate loads that combined are more than 15amps, I'd say
> the answer is yes. Clearly the NEC allows using multiple 15 amp
> duplex outlets on a 20 amp circuit. If any duplex outlet could not
> safely handle 16, 17..., 20 amps combined, there would be a big safety
> issue.
This is from memory and I've not kept up w/ changes (but I'd be
surprised if this has changed)...
15A branch circuits. NEC has no limits on number of outlets/circuit;
commonsense prevails. Receptacles may be no more than 15A rated. Any
one cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 12A. If the circuit also
supplies any load fastened in place, that load may not exceed 7-1/2A.
20A branch circuits. Receptacles may be either 15A or 20A. No single
cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 16A. If the circuit also supplies
any load(s) fastened in place, the total load may not exceed 10A.
--
bud--
Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I
agree is odd.
A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A
single receptacles on a 15A circuit:
15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage
class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to
"grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded
20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only
in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness
remains, but is greatly limited.
--
bud--
bud--
Minor typo.
> If the circuit also
> supplies any load fastened in place, that load may not exceed 7-1/2A.
>
> 20A branch circuits. Receptacles may be either 15A or 20A. No single
> cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 16A. If the circuit also supplies
> any load(s) fastened in place, the total load may not exceed 10A.
>
The 12 and 16A limits on 15 and 20A circuits is in 210.21-B-2. A while
ago there were several proposals written to change this section. One of
the common arguments is that UL allows a 15A plug on devices that draw
over 12A (maybe a hair dryer). The same is probably true for 20A plugs.
The code panel response was 'we're right, UL is wrong'. (Another of the
arguments was that the NEC does not normally make unenforceable
restrictions about what happens after the inspector leaves.)
I am confident everyone will watch what they plug in to insure they
don't use a UL listed product whose use does not conform to the NEC.
--
bud--
RBM
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:25340a02-dac0-435e...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp
outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3
N8N
receps were done in mid 80s and there were enough of them that didn't
grab a plug with reassuring tightness that I replaced 'em all, every
last one. Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box
only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used
traditional duplexes with antique plates & also had found supply house
that was open on Saturdays so got spec grade for those at about the
same price as the el cheapos from the big box. Also found some old
spec grade switches both SPST and 3-way NIB for dirt cheap @
architectural salvage place. go me.
of course if you are only going to be in house 5 years it probably
doesn't matter. In my case the spec grade didn't get me anything but
the satisfaction of a job well done because my plans changed and I no
longer live there. But at least I did it right. nobody'll be
bitching about the quality of my work, unlike my opinion of whoever
did the last go-round (wasn't just the cheap receps that pissed me
off, there were other issues...)
nate
On Oct 12, 12:37 pm, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I've found that 12 ga wire won't go into the back stabs of 15 amp
> sockets. Which is a good thing. Helps keep people from using heavy
> loads on cheap sockets.
>
> The more pricey 15 amp sockets, the screw tightens two pieces of metal
> to grab the wire. These, I like. If you're plugging and unplugging
> frequently, I'd use the $2 sockets, not the 50 cent sockets.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
>
> "Mikepier" <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote in message
RBM
<j...@myplace.com> wrote in message
news:dhe9b6d4sq895f69a...@4ax.com...
> NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.
I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer
>
Stormin Mormon
the screw, and snug down. Back stab cheap outlets are problem waiting
to happen.
The one "high demaned" place for outlets is hallway in church. Weekly
vacuum cleaner plug in and out.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:6246740a-6550-4525...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Steve Barker
UNLESS.... there's always an exception.
Ed Pawlowski
"RBM" <rb...@live.com> wrote in message
news:4cb44c71$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
>
> "Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:226446f4-266c-43ca...@f25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>> microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
>> get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.
>>
> 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
> protected, but all the counter outlets do.
The refrigerator should NOT be on a GFI. Let me repeat that, do NOT put the
fridge on a GFI. If it trips, the fridge goes dead and the food spoils.
Ed Pawlowski
<j...@myplace.com> wrote
>>> outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
>>> microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
>>> get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.
>>>
>>15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
>>protected,
>>but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
>>through
>>
>
> NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.
>
I read it too fast too. Ooops.
Doug Miller
>
>And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
>outlet on a 15 amp circuit,
It says no such thing.
Doug Miller
>And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for
>you later,
Yeah, you do that. We'll wait.
> but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a
>distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more
>than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A
>outlet on 15A circuit.
Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've
apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a
20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK.
Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without
regard to how many there are.
> But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the
>code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal
>to the circuit rating.
It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on
a 20A circuit.
>Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15
>amp circuit.
No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible
receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is
"not over 15".
>
>I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me.
Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're
completely wrong about the rules.
Doug Miller
>Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I
>agree is odd.
No, it doesn't. Read Table 210.21(B)(3). The permitted receptacle ratings on a
15A circuit are "not over 15". On a 20A circuit, it's "15 or 20".
>
>A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A
>single receptacles on a 15A circuit:
Never mind that. Table 210.21(B)(3) prohibits *all* 20A receptacles, single or
duplex, on a 15A circuit.
>15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage
>class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to
>"grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded
>20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only
>in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness
>remains, but is greatly limited.
No, you can't. 15A circuits may not have receptacles rated over 15A. Period.
There are no exceptions.
>
David Nebenzahl
> Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box
> only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used
> traditional duplexes with antique plates [...]
So you like those "vintage" cover plates too? I've got a big box full of
'em, gleaned mostly from a local recycled-goods store. (I assume you're
talking about the old ivory plastic plates with various molded designs).
So much better looking than those boring new plastic ones.
--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.
- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)
RBM
<j...@myplace.com> wrote in message
news:9qpab69mbokmd3bhp...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" <rb...@live.com> wrote:
>
>>I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
>>protection
>>by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
>>outlet.
>>Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires
>>GFCI
>>protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer
>>>
>
> garage, for the fridge.
>
> None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the
> 1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging
> light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from
> age. And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire
> screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because
> of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. And most of
> the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground.
> The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth
> covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit,
> which was actually black gas pipe. The fuse box was supposed to have
> two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse
> for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with
> both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so
> anyone could touch it.
>
> No one ever died from it. So why the hell do I need GFCIs now?
>
> As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof
> collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out
> when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. Those old hanging
> lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. Well, I had to
> build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due
> to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. I ended up having to
> replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead
> of two fuses. Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light
> fixtures and outlets. Of course all of the old wiring was
> grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
> just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
> any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. I
> even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for
> memories, even though it's not connected.
>
> By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and
> destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. So, it's
> now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. But
> hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI
> outlets or other useless modern nonsense. Hell, if the inspectors
> were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and
> screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
> my breaker box. This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now),
> and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920.
Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.
>
N8N
> On 10/12/2010 3:55 PM N8N spake thus:
>
> > Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box
> > only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used
> > traditional duplexes with antique plates [...]
>
> So you like those "vintage" cover plates too? I've got a big box full of
> 'em, gleaned mostly from a local recycled-goods store. (I assume you're
> talking about the old ivory plastic plates with various molded designs).
> So much better looking than those boring new plastic ones.
Actually the ones I used were the pressed brass ones; they have a nice
patina and also the bevels are super crisp unlike the ones you can buy
today.
I know what you're talking about though, I remember those and would
prefer those to new as well.
nate
tra...@optonline.net
> In article <3ae89ed4-a7b8-45d4-893b-ac9866b01...@l20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> >And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for
> >you later,
>
> Yeah, you do that. We'll wait.
You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic
and snippy.
" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."
That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating
greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they
wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15
amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a
rating EQUAL to the circuit.
>
> > but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a
> >distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more
> >than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A
> >outlet on 15A circuit.
>
> Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've
> apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a
> 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK.
> Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without
> regard to how many there are.
>
> > But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the
> >code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal
> >to the circuit rating.
>
> It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on
> a 20A circuit.
Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above.
You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude?
>
> >Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15
> >amp circuit.
>
> No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible
> receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is
> "not over 15".
Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts
to explain those tables it starts off with:
"210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit
supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall
conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)"
The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE
20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply.
>
> >I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me.
>
> Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're
> completely wrong about the rules.
Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A
simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice.
tra...@optonline.net
> In article <25340a02-dac0-435e-8f94-4cb02850d...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
>
>
> >And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
> >outlet on a 15 amp circuit,
>
> It says no such thing.
Actually it does:
" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."
Since 20amps is greater than 15amps, the 20 amp receptacle may be used
on a circuit where it is the only receptacle.
tra...@optonline.net
> <trad...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
NEC 210.21(B)(3) starts off by saying that section only applies to
circuits with more than one outlet. We are talking about a SINGLE
outlet. In which case, the following section applies:
" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."
Since the 20 amp outlet has a rating greater than the 15 amp circuit,
it may be used. Now, I would agree it doesn't make much, but that
is what is says, and hence was my point.
tra...@optonline.net
I find interesting the statment that:
"Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this."
Say what? The roof collapsed causing lights, wiring, even the fuse
box to be damaged to the point they had to be replaced and you were
not required to follow any codes because it was grandfathered?
Where do you live? Every place I'm aware of you would be required to
not only follow code, but bring the part that is being replaced up to
the current code.
And if, as you claim, you were not required to follow code, then why
the need for this statement:
"Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box,
and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. "
Your approach to safety seems to be that since nothing bad has
happened so far, that means you should just keep doing the same thing
and not learn from standards and practices that are in place based on
the experience from millions of similar situations over decades.
Kind of like texting while driving and since you haven't had a wreck
or killed anyone so far, it must be OK to keep doing it.
bud--
All but one of the exceptions disappeared in the 2008 NEC. (The
remaining one is for alarm panels.)
The NEC panel does not see a problem with refrigeration on GFCI. In
commercial kitchens plug-in refrigeration (15/20A, 120V) is required to
be on GFCIs. The UL allowed leakage is around 0.5mA if I remember right.
--
bud--
Steve Barker
I only know what my local AHJ goes by. And that is the 2005 version.
They just switched (last year) from the 1994 version. I'm sure there'll
be no switching again for quite some time. <G>
Also, i think some of the confusion comes from the interpretation of the
term "single outlet". SINGLE outlet does NOT mean a duplex outlet. And
SINGLE (non gfci) outlets are allowed in basement and garages on a
circuit for sump pumps and refrigerators. Whereas nothing else can be
plugged into them without unplugging the device the outlet was intended
for. Has this been eliminated for the 2008 version?
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
If it is fused at 15 amps it doesn't matter what kind of plug is on
the end (as long as it is rated for at LEAST 15 amps - the circuit is
protected. - code issues - if any- aside.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>In article <3f3c7$4cb4cc7a$cde8d5ad$17...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
When you lookk at it logically - from an electrical point of view -
it would make more sense to allow a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp
circuit than the other way around. Look at it from this point of view.
A 20 amp receptacle ic designed to handle 20 amp loads - on a 15 amp
circuit it is protected to 15 amps. This is definitely safe as nothing
can operate above its rated or protected current .
A 15 amp receptacle is designed for a 15 amp load and when installed
on a 20 amp circuit is protected at 20 amps and wired with wiring that
is rated at 20 amps. The receptacle is now the week link, and being
somewhat resistive in nature it is succeptible to overload damage if a
load plugged into it draws more than it's rated current - as it is
"protected" to a current higher than its rating.. This definitely has
the possibility of being unsafe as the receptacle can operate above
its rated current.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I believe he was saying nobody had ever died from HIS terribly
dangerous and inadequate garage wiring.
However, the fact that he allowed the garage to collapse before
repairing the water leaks and rewiring the garage doesn't say an
awfull lot for his analytic capacity or his maintenance regimen!!!!
RBM
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:ba2ddf02-032d-4bfd...@n13g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
That text is only part of the article, the table clarifies the rest. There
is no ambiguity in the table.
RBM
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:b555a693-6fe3-4c81...@w4g2000vbh.googlegroups.com...
I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40
amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes
it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp
circuit
RBM
"Steve Barker" <ichase...@notgmail.com> wrote in message
news:uY6dnfAe4oBqRijR...@giganews.com...
Yes it has. There are no longer any exceptions
RBM
<j...@myplace.com> wrote in message
news:iv0cb69i4p1s53jmc...@4ax.com...
>>completely
>>incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned
>>down
>>from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
>>every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
>>intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.
>
> stupid. For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches
> now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the
> screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the
> front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. Those old bakelite
> rotary swithces with the exposed HOT WIRE screws WERE dangerous, VERY
> dangerous. I would not even think of allowing such a thing. Not only
> can children touch them, but when I walk into a dark room fiddling
> around for the switch, I could easily touch them. In fact when I had
> that switch in my garage, I planned to replace it, but when I moved
> onto this property there were a million projects and all had
> priorities. Yet, I did apply some electrical tape over those screws
> shortly after moving here.
>
> Old wiring was extremely dangerous. Much did not even make common
> sense, such as any exposed HOT electricity. Those old knife switches
> were insane on 120V AC. They were fine for a 6 or 12 V battery
> circuit, but allowing them, or even using them on 120V AC was just
> stupid. Yes, people were electricuted and some died, and fires
> started. Then in the 1950's and 60's, all wiring was in metal.
> Conduit, BX, metal boxes, etc. That was likely the safest wiring ever
> made. Now we have plastic coated cable in plastic boxes. Plastic
> burns. It's not as safe, but we rely on breakers rather than plug
> fuses which could often be oversized. Yet, nothing stops someone from
> hooking that #14 wire to a 30A breaker if they know how. It's just
> that back when fuses were used, ANYONE could change a fuse, now it
> involves the use of tools and some guys wont open any electrical box.
>
> In some ways, wiring has improved, in others, it's gone backwards. I
> still believe that the old metal enclosed wiring was superior to what
> is used today. But much of that old metal enclosed wiring was
> connected to fuses, so we have advanced in the regard of breakers.
>
> I do have GFCIs on all my outdoor outlets, but not those in my garage,
> basement, or bathroom. But those are all existing installations and
> have not been rewired except for a few outlets that were replaced due
> to wearing out or just wanting a grounded one to avoid hunting down
> those damn adaptors all the time.
>
Ground screws come on switches because there are a variety of ways to ground
equipment, and some methods do require a ground screw.
FYI in the 50's and 60's all wiring wasn't in metal. As early as the 20's
wiring was available with or without a metal jacket, just as it is today.
The conductor insulation has and continues to be improved as better
materials become available.
>
RBM
<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:9h3cb6hlpqv3a93r8...@4ax.com...
According to the article it does matter. First of all, in legalese, saying
"not less than" doesn't mean that it can be greater than. It just can't be
less than. Second, the table in the same article shows that a receptacle on
a 15 amp circuit cant' be rated over 15 amps.
Personally, I'd like to know that if I have an appliance that has a 20 amp
plug on it, and I find a 20 amp receptacle that I can plug it into, a 15 amp
breaker isn't limiting the current.
tra...@optonline.net
> <trad...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>
That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is
shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more
receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including
single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but
they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the
case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current
rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it
allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" <r...@live.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "RBM" <r...@live.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:4cb44c71$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
>
> > >news:226446f4-266c-43ca...@f25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> > >> Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
> > >> all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
> > >> 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
> > >> I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.
>
> > >> I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
> > >> outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
> > >> outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
> > >> microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
> > >> get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.
>
> > > 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
> > > protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
> > > amp feed through
>
> > dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine
>
> > - Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
> any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
> outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
> one?
>
> 15 amp circuit.
>
> Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?
>
> The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp
> outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Again, here's what the section you are referring to says. From 2008
NEC,
210.21 (B) (3)
Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO
OR MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to
the values listed in Table 210.21 (B) (3)....
The added emphasis is mine. We are talking about a SINGLE receptacle,
so that section and it's table do not apply. Section 210.21 (B) (1),
which preceeds it, specifically addresses the case of a single
receptacle.
21210.21 (B) (1)
Single receptacle on an individual branch circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit.
Do you not agree that a single 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit meets
that requirement? Note that I'm not saying it makes sense to me, but
it's clearly what it says.
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree there is no abiguity in the table. The problem is the table
applies to circuits with two or more receptacles and we are talking
about a circuit with just one.
210.21 (B) (3)
Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO
OR MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to
the values listed in Table 210.21 (B) (3)....
Here;s the section that covers the single receptacle:
21210.21 (B) (1)
Single receptacle on an individual branch circuit. A single
RBM
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:1531d354-643f-42ad...@i21g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle,
single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it.
RBM
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:c9b8c511-9c25-43c0...@h7g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
No, I respect your logic, but I think that the Nec is written in an often
incoherent legalese, which is why I use the handbook. It says that it can't
be less than, but it doesn't say that it can be greater than. I think from
a practical perspective, one should be able to expect a 20 amp receptacle to
be fed by a 20 amp circuit
Doug Miller
>On Oct 12, 10:36=A0pm, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> In article <25340a02-dac0-435e-8f94-4cb02850d...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.=
>com>, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
>> >outlet on a 15 amp circuit,
>>
>> It says no such thing.
>
>Actually it does:
It does not.
>
>" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
>(B) Receptacles.
>(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
>receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
>ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."
You stopped reading too soon. Table 210.21(B)(3) specifically lists the
permissible rating of receptacles on a 15A circuit as "not over 15A".
>
>
>Since 20amps is greater than 15amps, the 20 amp receptacle may be used
>on a circuit where it is the only receptacle.
Since 20 amps is "over 15A", a 20 amp receptacle may not be used on a 15A
circuit. Anywhere. Period.
Doug Miller
No, it is not "definitely safe". It's of questionable safety at best
>A 15 amp receptacle is designed for a 15 amp load and when installed
>on a 20 amp circuit is protected at 20 amps and wired with wiring that
>is rated at 20 amps. The receptacle is now the week link, and being
>somewhat resistive in nature it is succeptible to overload damage if a
>load plugged into it draws more than it's rated current - as it is
>"protected" to a current higher than its rating.. This definitely has
>the possibility of being unsafe as the receptacle can operate above
>its rated current.
>
No, it can't, because any device that draws enough current to overload a 15A
circuit is not permitted to have a plug that will fit into a 15A receptacle.
It will have a plug that fits only into 20A receptacles. That's why a 20A
receptacle has a different configuration.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
>On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, j...@myplace.com wrote:
>
>>For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches
>>now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the
>>screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the
>>front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate.
>
>You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed
>as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke)
>In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and
>you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only
>allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed
>much either
.In almost 60 years I've NEVER seen a plastic plate screw.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
You don't understand english very well - particularly when boolian
logic is involved.
"not less than" means exactly that. Equal to or greater than equals
not less than. PERIOD.
And a 15 amp breaker does not LIMIT current - it interrupts current
when current excedes the limit.
Limitting current would controll the current by reducing voltage to
hold the current to the maximum limit.
A 20 amp 115/125 volt receptacle also accepts 15 amp plugs perfectly.
RBM
<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:e3pcb69rhjlqtagja...@4ax.com...
They do exist:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0610-FN/6-32-x-1quot-Nylon-Switchplate-Screws
cl...@snyder.on.ca
It actually makes a lot of sense, as I stated in an earlier post.
What does NOT make any sense is a 15 amp plug on a 20 amp circuit
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Not reasonable.
You have a multibranch 15 amp circuit with 4 duplex 15 amp
receptacles. You think it is only reasonable to expect to be able to
plug 8 15 amp devices into the circuit??
Give your head a shake.
RBM
<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:plpcb6hli4280n4uq...@4ax.com...
No, but I would expect to be able to plug in one 15 amp device, and I would
be correct, unlike having a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, where the
same expectation wouldn't be met. Must just be my Boolean logic
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
You obviously do not understand electrical theory any more than you
understand the code book.
You explain to me how a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp fused/protected
circuit is a safety issue.
Give it your best crack.
>
>>A 15 amp receptacle is designed for a 15 amp load and when installed
>>on a 20 amp circuit is protected at 20 amps and wired with wiring that
>>is rated at 20 amps. The receptacle is now the week link, and being
>>somewhat resistive in nature it is succeptible to overload damage if a
>>load plugged into it draws more than it's rated current - as it is
>>"protected" to a current higher than its rating.. This definitely has
>>the possibility of being unsafe as the receptacle can operate above
>>its rated current.
>>
>No, it can't, because any device that draws enough current to overload a 15A
>circuit is not permitted to have a plug that will fit into a 15A receptacle.
>It will have a plug that fits only into 20A receptacles. That's why a 20A
>receptacle has a different configuration.
No, you are wrong. 100%
The fuse is their to prevent damage due to, and protect against FAULT
CURRENT. Any device, irregardless of it's rating, can draw excessive
current due to a FAULT. And a 15 amp plug fits a 20 amp receptacle.
By your logic, twisted as it is, all 15 amp receptacles on a
multi-branch circuit would have to be designed, built, and installed
in such a way that if anything was plugged into one receptacle drawing
close to 15 amps (or anything with a 15 amp plug, for that matter) ,
it would be impossible to plug anything else into any other receptacle
on the circuit.
That's not the way it works (thankfully), nor should it.
The "ring wiring" system used (at least untill recently) in brittain
and some parts of europe makes sense, with fused outlets. There is
also a proposed standard (smart home) that would have each plug
identify the rated current of the device and centrally monitor the
current draw, shutting the device down if current ratings are exceded
without shutting down anything else. This system uses RFID chips for
identity - and yes - it IS being worked on - I know one of the
engineers involved in the project.
Steve Barker
guess i'll be breaking that rule then. I will NOT put a sump pump on a
gfci. period.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I didn't say they didn't exist - just that they were so uncommon I
never saw one.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
lots of 20 amp plugged devices will actually run on 15 amps under
"normal" conditions but can draw up to 20 (or even more) under
cold-start or other special, but not fault, conditions.
And you can ONLY expect to plug in one 15 amp device if it is a
DEDICATED outlet. - which is the only time a 20 amp receptacle IS
allowed on a 15 amp circuit under current code.
tra...@optonline.net
> In article <45649e5b-1cba-4a29-a00d-7cd5ad25b...@f26g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> >On Oct 12, 10:36=A0pm, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
> >> In article <25340a02-dac0-435e-8f94-4cb02850d...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.=
> >com>, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> >> >And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
> >> >outlet on a 15 amp circuit,
>
> >> It says no such thing.
>
> >Actually it does:
>
> It does not.
>
>
>
> >" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
> >(B) Receptacles.
> >(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
> >receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
> >ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."
>
> You stopped reading too soon. Table 210.21(B)(3) specifically lists the
> permissible rating of receptacles on a 15A circuit as "not over 15A".
It's you who either can't read, or more likely, as usually, will not
simply admit that there was something that you didn't know about and
were wrong. I already pointed out that the table you are referring
to, Table 210.21(B)(3), DOES NOT APPLY because it starts off by
clearly saying right there in plain English that the table applies to
circuits with TWO OR MORE receptacles. You do understand that TWO
receptacles is not the same thing as ONE receptacle, don;t you?
Here again is what you are relying on to make your case:
> "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit
> supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall
> conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)"
We are talking about a SINGLE receptacle. The rules for receptacles
are clearly seperated in the NEC into two cases, circuits with single
receptacles and circuits with multiple receptacles. Multiple outlets
are covered by the section with the table you keep trying to use.
The code covers single outlets in the section just before it, 210.21(B)
(1):
" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."
Since 20 amps is greater than 15 amps, the 20 amp receptacle may be
used
on a circuit where it is the only receptacle. Following your process,
one coud use a table in the code that says it applies to circuits less
than 600 volts and apply it to circuits over 600 volts or vice
versa. Somehow I think it doesn't work that way. Anyone who wants
to read the sections in the actual NEC, and make up their own minds,
which I encourage, it's available online here:
http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&EditionID=238
It's a good resource for everyone to have. After you have the book
open, click on the TOC button in the lower left to bring up the table
of contents, then go to section 2, flip through a few pages until you
get to 210.21 It's all there in a few short, clear paragraphs.
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, I've seen and used plastic plate screws too.
tra...@optonline.net
> <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:9h3cb6hlpqv3a93r8...@4ax.com...
>
> > wrote:
>
> >>In article
> >><25340a02-dac0-435e-8f94-4cb02850d...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> >>trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> >>>And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
> >>>outlet on a 15 amp circuit,
>
> >>It says no such thing.
> > If it is fused at 15 amps it doesn't matter what kind of plug is on
> > the end (as long as it is rated for at LEAST 15 amps - the circuit is
> > protected. - code issues - if any- aside.
>
> According to the article it does matter. First of all, in legalese, saying
> "not less than" doesn't mean that it can be greater than. It just can't be
> less than.
This isn't much of a case of legalese, which is usually used to refer
to long, winding sentences that are difficult to decipher. This is
one short, direct sentence. Saying it can't be "less than" leaves
open exactly two possibilities:
A - It can equal to
B - It can be greater than
Either of those options is valid and not restricted. If they wanted
to retrict it to just A, all they had to do was say the receptacle has
to be equal to the circuit rating.
Let's take some other examples. Suppose the law says that on a
certain section of road you must maintain a vehicle speed not less
than 40MPH. Would you argue they mean I can't drive at 55MPH? Or
that a section of the plumbing code says a pipe must be rated not less
than 160 PSI. Does that mean I can't use a pipe rated at 250 PSI ?
>Second, the table in the same article shows that a receptacle on
> a 15 amp circuit cant' be rated over 15 amps.
> Personally, I'd like to know that if I have an appliance that has a 20 amp
> plug on it, and I find a 20 amp receptacle that I can plug it into, a 15 amp
> breaker isn't limiting the current.
On that I agree with you 100%, which is why I brought up the issue in
the first place. Like you and I think 99% of the rest of the world, I
would not put a 20 amp receptacle on any 15 amp circuit, as at the
very least, it leads to confusion.
bud--
bud--
trader already did in a perfectly good answer (below).
>>> A 15 amp receptacle is designed for a 15 amp load and when installed
>>> on a 20 amp circuit is protected at 20 amps and wired with wiring that
>>> is rated at 20 amps. The receptacle is now the week link, and being
>>> somewhat resistive in nature it is succeptible to overload damage if a
>>> load plugged into it draws more than it's rated current - as it is
>>> "protected" to a current higher than its rating.. This definitely has
>>> the possibility of being unsafe as the receptacle can operate above
>>> its rated current.
>>>
>> No, it can't, because any device that draws enough current to overload a 15A
>> circuit is not permitted to have a plug that will fit into a 15A receptacle.
>> It will have a plug that fits only into 20A receptacles. That's why a 20A
>> receptacle has a different configuration.
> No, you are wrong. 100%
> The fuse is their to prevent damage due to, and protect against FAULT
> CURRENT. Any device, irregardless of it's rating, can draw excessive
> current due to a FAULT.
What a brilliant idea. We can ignore current trips at a little over the
circuit rating and just trip on fault current - maybe 80A and higher.
>
> By your logic, twisted as it is, all 15 amp receptacles on a
> multi-branch circuit would have to be designed, built, and installed
> in such a way that if anything was plugged into one receptacle drawing
> close to 15 amps (or anything with a 15 amp plug, for that matter) ,
> it would be impossible to plug anything else into any other receptacle
> on the circuit.
I posted earlier that a 15A duplex receptacle is rated for a total 20A
in both halves.
There have been a couple posts that a 15A receptacle is rated 20A
wire-through.
>
> That's not the way it works (thankfully), nor should it.
You appear to have little idea of "the way it works". Perhaps the cold
electrons in Canada behave differently.
Else you should stick to cars. There is no shock hazard and less to burn
down.
--
bud--
bud--
[trader]
I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit
But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would
make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that
406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210.
There is a reference to 210 in 406.3.
Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A
circuit (there seems to be one exception).
>
> I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle,
> single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it.
>
[RBM]
There is text that you can put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.
There is no text in 210 that you can't have a higher rating, like 20A
(or 50A, or 100A) as the single receptacle.
There is text in 406.3 that you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A
circuit. This is what we all (except one) expect.
--
bud--
bud--
Maybe circuit breakers could include a feature that gives a delayed trip
for motor starting current and incandescent inrush. Oh, wait, every
circuit breaker already has that feature. And a lot of fuses.
And a device is not rated 20A because of momentary conditions. It is
rated 20A (or over 15A) because that is what it draws under normal
conditions.
>
> And you can ONLY expect to plug in one 15 amp device if it is a
> DEDICATED outlet. - which is the only time a 20 amp receptacle IS
> allowed on a 15 amp circuit under current code.
Maybe you can in Canada, but in the US you can' install a 20A receptacle
on a 15A circuit (406.3-B).
--
bud--
bud--
> On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, j...@myplace.com wrote:
>
>> For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches
>> now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the
>> screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the
>> front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate.
>
> You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed
> as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke)
> In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and
> you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only
> allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed
> much either.
Far as I know, a switch doesn't need to be "self grounding". The NEC
just requires metal screws and a grounded metal box. (Receptacles that
use the mounting screws must be "self grounding".)
If I remember right, the argument was that you might have a plastic
plate now, but someone could install a metal plate in the future.
--
bud--
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't think the issue ever was what we expect. I would not have
expected the code to allow a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit
either, which is why I brought it up in the first place. I also would
not wire a circuit that way, because it's misleading at best. But
what one expects and what is actually written in the code can be two
different things.
I think there are actually three differing opinions on this subject.
It looks like cl and I read the code as allowing a single 20 amp
receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. Doug makes the claim, which I think
is totally bogus, that the table in 210.21 (B) (3) says it is not
allowed. But that is just plain wrong, because that table is
preceeded by verbage that says it applies to circuits with two or more
receptacles. I believe you and I agree on that point.
Then there is your position, which is that while not prohibited by
section 210, it is prohibited by 406.3. That is a new point, which I
had never heard used before. But let;s look at what that says. It
doesn't actually say you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A
circuit. What it says is this:
406.3 (A)
"Grounding type receptacles shall be installed only on circuits of the
voltage class and current for which they are rated, except as provided
in Table 210.21 (B)(2) and Table 210.21(B)(3)."
A 20A receptable is rated to handle 0 through 20 amps of current. A
15 amp circuit falls in that range, so I would interpret the above to
mean that the 20A receptacle is permitted. Especially in view of the
fact that when they specifically address the issue of a single outlet
they could have just said that in the case of a single outlet you must
use a receptacle with a rating equal to the circuit, but they did not
and instead said this:
" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit.
Suppose instead of talking about receptacles, 406.3 talked about wire
and said wire gauge shall only be installed on circuits of the voltage
class and current for which it is rated. Would that mean that I
couldn't use 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit?
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
I don't see anything SAFETY relatee anywhere in trader's post. All
he's talking is inconvenience.
Not germain to the discussion at hand. You guys seem to think it's
your "god given right" to expect to be able to plug a 15 amp device
into any 15 amp receptacle in a building and not have a breaker trip.
That can ONLY happen if every receptacle in the building is a split on
a double breaker. I only know of one house where that is the case -
every receptacle in the house is a 20 amp, separately supplied direct
from one of several 400 amp panels distributed throughout the house.
About half of them are also remotely switched. Took a very good
electrician several months to wire that monstrosity.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
A 20 amp receptacle is going to outlast even the hospital duty 15 amp
receptacle under moderate to heavy use. Absolutely no reason you
cannot use a 20 amp receptacle anywhere in your house that code allows
it, or anywhere in the house PERIOD if code is not in effect. Just
like there is nothing stopping you from using AWG 12 wiring throught
the entire house. The entire house can be wired for 20 amp circuits,
and protected by 15 amp breakers or fuses without posing ANY safety
issues. There will be cost issues, and IF you attempt to plug in a 20
amp device the breaker will eventually trip. The advantage is, all you
need to do is install a 20 amp breaker in place of the 15 and any
outlet in the house can instantly become a 20 amp circuit.
RBM
RBM
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:e7935d5c-4bec-40e8...@g18g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
406.3 (A)
OK Trader, After looking it over, and over, I think I'm starting to agree
with you. The table is clearly prefaced by the text referring to other than
single receptacles. I question if it may be an oversight as it sure doesn't
make any sense to me, or you and Bud for that matter. Now I'm curious to get
the opinion of one of the local electrical inspectors, not that that's
necessarily definitive
Roy
==
"Suppose instead of talking about receptacles, 406.3 talked about wire
and said wire gauge shall only be installed on circuits of the voltage
class and current for which it is rated. Would that mean that I
couldn't use 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit? "
Of course you can use 12 gauge wire or even 10 gauge wire but not
smaller gauge like 16 gauge which couldn't handle the full 15 amp
load. IME 14 gauge would be very iffy as well although I have seen it
used. Over-sizing the wire doesn't affect the 15 amp breaker from
tripping if you over-load the circuit.
On all 20 amp split receptacles over the kitchen counters I used 10
gauge wire and 20 amp breakers. On all 15 amp receptacles I used 12
gauge wire and 15 amp breakers.
==
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wow, that's good to hear! :) I know from all your posts over the
years that you're a pro and know a lot more about the NEC than me, so
I highly value your opinion and it's nice to hear I at least partially
convinced you.
Here's a couple of links to Mike Holt's website, which is for
electricians, inspectors, etc, with threads I found that discuss this
issue:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=89149&highlight=single+receptacle+210.21
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=122483&highlight=single+receptacle+210.21&page=3
Not saying that they are the definitive authority, but if you look at
all the code issues they discuss there, it's obvious that there are
some people there who are very knowledgable about the code. In the
two threads, there is some initial disagreement and confusion, but at
the end, the moderators and/or senior members come to the same
conclusion, which is that a single 20A receptacle is allowed on a 15A
circuit. I'm sure there are more threads on that site about it too.
I think the first time I heard about this was in some forum where an
electrician was asking about it. He had gone to the supply house
looking for a single 15A outlet for a job. He said the guy at the
counter told him they no longer stock them, just the 20A, and that he
could use that on a 15A circuit. Again, there was a lot of back and
forth, but at the end the consensus was that code did allow it.
Another question. I think in one of your earlier posts you made some
reference to using a higher rated receptacle for maybe an oven?
Don;t recall exactly. But in looking through this issue on the web, I
found some people saying that 50amp receptacles are sometimes used on
40amp circuits for ovens. Is that true? If so, how is that
allowed? Unless there is some other section of the NEC that covers
it, then it must be covered under the same 210.21 single receptacle
section we are talking about, no? Meaning if it allows 50 on a 40,
then 20 on a 15 is OK too.
Please let us know what the inspector has to say. Would be
interesting to ask him the question first, then depending on the
answer, show him the code sections and see what he says.
I'm still waiting for my apology from Doug.
bud--
A 40A receptacle is rated to handle 0-40A. Would it be allowed on a 15A
circuit?
The rule should be expected to be in the article on receptacles, which
is 406.
The rule is (leaving some details out) that for 15 and 20A circuits,
receptacles "shall be be installed only on circuits of the voltage
class and current for which they are rated" (same as you quoted). On a
15A branch circuit you can only install a 15A receptacle and on a 20A
circuit you can only install a 20A receptacle. You match the receptacle
rating to the branch circuit rating. In 406.3-A it does not say
'voltage class and a current not less than the branch circuit'.
Then there is the exception - Table 210.21 (B)(2) and (B)(3). They allow
a 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit. There is no reference to 210.21-B-1
(single receptacles).
There is not a problem with a 15A receptacle on a 20A branch circuit
because listed plug-in equipment is apparently tested to be safe on 20A
circuits (which it all can be plugged into). And a 15A receptacle is
rated for 20A total.
The problem with installing a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit is
obvious to everyone (with one exception). It does not make sense the NEC
would allow that (although the NEC does make mistakes). IMHO it is not
allowed in 406.3-A. It is not explicitly allowed in 210.21-B-1. Would
210.21-B-1 allow a 40A receptacle on a 15A circuit?
But there is a difference. While 406.3-A is specific to 15 and 20A
branch circuits, 210.21-B-1 (single receptacle) is general, including
for instance a 60A receptacle on a 40A circuit - allowed by 210 and not
covered by 406-3-A. For 15 and 20A circuits use 406.3-A.
>
> Suppose instead of talking about receptacles, 406.3 talked about wire
> and said wire gauge shall only be installed on circuits of the voltage
> class and current for which it is rated. Would that mean that I
> couldn't use 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit?
But 406.3 isn't about wire gauge and there are reasons to use a larger
size wire.
There are obvious reasons (to most people) why you don't want a 20A
receptacle on a common 15A circuit.
==================
The Holt discussions did not consider 406.3.
--
bud--
tra...@optonline.net
The answer according to 210.21 (B) (1) would be yes. Oh, no! And
just when I got RBM switching over...
>
> The rule should be expected to be in the article on receptacles, which
> is 406.
>
> The rule is (leaving some details out) that for 15 and 20A circuits,
> receptacles "shall be be installed only on circuits of the voltage
> class and current for which they are rated" (same as you quoted). On a
> 15A branch circuit you can only install a 15A receptacle and on a 20A
> circuit you can only install a 20A receptacle. You match the receptacle
> rating to the branch circuit rating. In 406.3-A it does not say
> 'voltage class and a current not less than the branch circuit'.
The key here is that one sentence: "receptacles shall be installed
only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are
rated". I see your interpretation of this and would agree that it is
one possible interpretation of what it means and it is not an
unreasonable interpretation. And I agree that interpretation would
close the loophole. The other interpretation is that a 20A
receptacle is rated to handle a 15A current too, so it can be
installed as well. But, with all things considered, I would even go
so far as to say that I would now lean more towards your
interpretation. It does put things back into more logical space.
>
> Then there is the exception - Table 210.21 (B)(2) and (B)(3). They allow
> a 15A receptacle on a 20A circuit. There is no reference to 210.21-B-1
> (single receptacles).
Agree, that table applies to circuits with more than one receptacle,
which we all agree has never been an issue.
>
> There is not a problem with a 15A receptacle on a 20A branch circuit
> because listed plug-in equipment is apparently tested to be safe on 20A
> circuits (which it all can be plugged into). And a 15A receptacle is
> rated for 20A total.
Agree.
>
> The problem with installing a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit is
> obvious to everyone (with one exception). It does not make sense the NEC
> would allow that (although the NEC does make mistakes). IMHO it is not
> allowed in 406.3-A.
Agree, that is one possible interpretation. But I'd say the alternate
interpretation is still possible too.
> It is not explicitly allowed in 210.21-B-1. Would
> 210.21-B-1 allow a 40A receptacle on a 15A circuit?
Clearly the answer to that is yes. And I agree it makes even less
sense than allowing a 20A on a 15A circuit.
>
> But there is a difference. While 406.3-A is specific to 15 and 20A
> branch circuits, 210.21-B-1 (single receptacle) is general, including
> for instance a 60A receptacle on a 40A circuit - allowed by 210 and not
> covered by 406-3-A. For 15 and 20A circuits use 406.3-A.
That answers my question about the 50A oven receptacle being allowed
on a 40A circuit and what allows it. So, your position is that
210.21 (B) (1) allows it. But then while 210 B 1 would allow using a
20A on a 15A circuit, 406.3 A disallows it because it specifcally
applies to 15/20A circuits. That at least makes things logical and
consistent. Of course though, we are left with the obvious, which is
even if your interpretation is correct, the NEC does allow single
receptacles with a higher amp rating to be used on circuits above 20
amps. So, I guess inquiring minds want to know, if they allow it on
those higher circuits, what's so special about 20A and does 406 3 A
really mean to prohibit it? Do you agree that even with your
interpretation I could put a single 50A receptacle on a 30A circuit?
>
>
>
> > Suppose instead of talking about receptacles, 406.3 talked about wire
> > and said wire gauge shall only be installed on circuits of the voltage
> > class and current for which it is rated. Would that mean that I
> > couldn't use 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit?
>
> But 406.3 isn't about wire gauge and there are reasons to use a larger
> size wire.
>
> There are obvious reasons (to most people) why you don't want a 20A
> receptacle on a common 15A circuit.
>
> ==================
> The Holt discussions did not consider 406.3.
>
Someone should revisit this whole thing over there, bringing up 406.3
and see what they have to say and if it changes their opinion. And
more importantly, you would think they would add some verbage to NEC
210.21 B 1 that spells out that for 15 and 20 circuits, the receptacle
rating must be equal to the circuit rating. That would totally
clarify it and end any possible confusion.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:53:36 -0500, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com>
> wrote:
I think everyone here, except possibly you, agrees at this point that
in the USA, the ONLY place code MAY allow doing what you describe is
on a 15A circuit with a 20A single outlet. That was what the
discussion was about. NEC 210 clearly prohibits putting 20A
receptacles on any 15A circuit with more than one outlet. So, to do
what you suggest, you'd have to use a single 20A outlet, not a duplex
one, and do a homerun back to the panel for each outlet. That indeed
involves cost issues, because your basic 15A duplex outlet would now
be replaced by two single outlets with two cable runs back to the
panel and two 15A breakers. And the point to doing it would be?
To confuse people who see a 20A outlet and think they can plug in a 16
to 20A load? And it's currently very much up in the air if code even
allows it in the case of a single outlet. I'm starting to lean
towards that it does not.
> The advantage is, all you
> need to do is install a 20 amp breaker in place of the 15 and any
> outlet in the house can instantly become a 20 amp circuit.
And if you thought you might want 20A outlets in the future, the
reason for doing it the way you proposed, as opposed to just wiring
the place with a 20A breaker, 20A outlets wherever you want them to
begin with, which would cost less than half and give them to you right
away, would be?
RBM
"bud--" <remove....@isp.com> wrote in message
news:49a89$4cb87492$cde8d57e$26...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
For me, 406.3A is the most confusing. If it were based solely on 210.21,
it's clear that the table doesn't cover single receptacles, and that single
receptacles must be rated not less than the circuit. 406.3A uses the term
"of the voltage, class and current" , it doesn't say "not less than", or
anything that offers flexibility, other than to use the table in 210.21B3,
which is not applicable to single receptacles.
In conclusion, I'm still scratchin my head, other than the fact that, while
there is no danger in using a receptacle rated higher than the circuit,
there is no practical reason to do it, and it could just lead to confusion.
bud--
As a single receptacle yes. The problem is that equipment that comes
wit;h a 20A plug is real common.
And now for the monkey wrench. One of the ways to determine what the
code panels had in mind is to look at the code change proposals and see
what the code panels did with them. Last I looked, the record for
changes was online back to at least the 2002 NEC.
For the 2008 NEC there was a proposal to change 210.12-B-1 (single
receptacle) to require the receptacle be equal to the branch circuit
rating. The argument was specifically about a 20A singe receptacle on a
15A circuit.
The code panel rejected the change. Their statement [with my comments] was:
"The recommendation would be overly restrictive in the case of some
larger receptacle applications that do not directly correspond to the
standard ratings of overcurrent protective devices." [It is not
difficult to allow this and limit a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.]
"The panel notes that a 20-ampere receptacle installed on a 15-ampere
branch circuit is protected within it�s rating." [The panel apparently
does not care that you can plug in readily available devices that are
over the circuit rating.]
So the code panel apparently has no problem with a 20A single receptacle
on a 15A circuit. But IMHO this can be tagged under 406.3-A, and it
appears to me that the code panel for 406 does not agree.
================================
One of the other posts in this thread, by you, looks at table
210.21-B-2, which limits the load at any receptacle (when there are 2 or
more) to 80% of the circuit rating. I said there was a proposal to
change that in a previous code cycle.
There were proposals for 2002 (the oldest one I looked at), 2005, 2008
and 2011 to eliminate the table or make it apply only to continuous
loads (as the 80% rule is applied elsewhere in the code). All were rejected.
As I said before, one of the arguments always made is that UL lists
equipment that may use up to 15A with a 15A plug (and similar for 20A).
According to 210.21-B-2, you can't plug that equipment with a 15A plug
into a 15A receptacle.
Disagreeing on one of the rejections, the UL representative said:
"For multioutlet branch circuits, use of noncontinuous appliances rated
at 100 percent of the branch circuit does not result in a hazard. All
branch circuit components, such as the receptacles, branch circuit
wiring, and the overcurrent devices, when used for supplying
noncontinuous loads, are evaluated for service at 100 percent of their
full rating."
Supporting one of the rejections, the panel comment was:
"Questions regarding how this requirement has been applied to products
rated more than 12 amps and provided with 15 ampere plugs should be
addressed to the responsible listing organization." This is an obvious
dig at UL.
From the comments, it appears that at least one other code panel does
not agree. This code panel seems to not play well with others.
--
bud--
tra...@optonline.net
>
> And now for the monkey wrench. One of the ways to determine what the
> code panels had in mind is to look at the code change proposals and see
> what the code panels did with them. Last I looked, the record for
> changes was online back to at least the 2002 NEC.
>
> For the 2008 NEC there was a proposal to change 210.12-B-1 (single
> receptacle) to require the receptacle be equal to the branch circuit
> rating. The argument was specifically about a 20A singe receptacle on a
> 15A circuit.
>
> The code panel rejected the change. Their statement [with my comments] was:
> "The recommendation would be overly restrictive in the case of some
> larger receptacle applications that do not directly correspond to the
> standard ratings of overcurrent protective devices." [It is not
> difficult to allow this and limit a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.]
> "The panel notes that a 20-ampere receptacle installed on a 15-ampere
> branch circuit is protected within it’s rating." [The panel apparently
> does not care that you can plug in readily available devices that are
> over the circuit rating.]
>
> So the code panel apparently has no problem with a 20A single receptacle
> on a 15A circuit. But IMHO this can be tagged under 406.3-A, and it
> appears to me that the code panel for 406 does not agree.
Wow, how things keep changing. First I had RBM moving towards my
original position that from what the code says, a single 20 amp
receptacle is allowed on a 15 amp circuit.
Then, you had me leaning towards your position that while 210.21
allows it, 406.3 rules it out.
Doug, who tried to use a table that doesn't apply, well, we haven't
heard from him anymore. Maybe he's working on that apology. :)
And now you found this true gem, where the guys that write the NEC,
per their change deliberations, believe a single 20 amp receptacle is
allowed on a 15 amp circuit and chose not do anything about it. I'd
have to say that's the most definitive thing I've seen yet and unless
trumped by something else, ends the debate.
Thanks for once again being honest and open. Since it didn't support
your original position, lots of guys would have just not posted that.
But by posting it, we all can learn. I also agree completely with
your position that they could have allowed the 210.21 single
receptacle section to apply only to receptacles larger than 20 amps,
while eliminating using a 20A on a 15 circuit. I see their point in
the case of larger receptacles not always matching the load/breaker
you want to use.
In the case of the far more common 20Amp outlets, it's primarily an
issue of avoiding unnecessary confusion to the extent possible. And
I can't see how allowing a 20A receptacle on any 15A circuit does
anything buy cause confusion and encourage someone to plug something
in to a receptacle marked 20 amps on a circuit that can't handle it
and will trip the breaker.
RBM
As usual a great find Bud. It is odd that they would leave two contradicting
points in the book without some clarification
bud--
> On Oct 15, 5:57 pm, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
>
>> And now for the monkey wrench. One of the ways to determine what the
>> code panels had in mind is to look at the code change proposals and see
>> what the code panels did with them. Last I looked, the record for
>> changes was online back to at least the 2002 NEC.
>>
>> For the 2008 NEC there was a proposal to change 210.12-B-1 (single
>> receptacle) to require the receptacle be equal to the branch circuit
>> rating. The argument was specifically about a 20A singe receptacle on a
>> 15A circuit.
>>
>> The code panel rejected the change. Their statement [with my comments] was:
>> "The recommendation would be overly restrictive in the case of some
>> larger receptacle applications that do not directly correspond to the
>> standard ratings of overcurrent protective devices." [It is not
>> difficult to allow this and limit a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit.]
>> "The panel notes that a 20-ampere receptacle installed on a 15-ampere
>> does not care that you can plug in readily available devices that are
>> over the circuit rating.]
>>
>> So the code panel apparently has no problem with a 20A single receptacle
>> on a 15A circuit. But IMHO this can be tagged under 406.3-A, and it
>> appears to me that the code panel for 406 does not agree.
>
>
> Wow, how things keep changing. First I had RBM moving towards my
> original position that from what the code says, a single 20 amp
> receptacle is allowed on a 15 amp circuit.
>
> Then, you had me leaning towards your position that while 210.21
> allows it, 406.3 rules it out.
>
> Doug, who tried to use a table that doesn't apply, well, we haven't
> heard from him anymore. Maybe he's working on that apology. :)
>
> And now you found this true gem, where the guys that write the NEC,
> per their change deliberations, believe a single 20 amp receptacle is
> allowed on a 15 amp circuit and chose not do anything about it. I'd
> have to say that's the most definitive thing I've seen yet and unless
> trumped by something else, ends the debate.
As I said, IMHO a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit can be tagged under
403.6-A. Greg?
>
> Thanks for once again being honest and open. Since it didn't support
> your original position, lots of guys would have just not posted that.
> But by posting it, we all can learn. I also agree completely with
> your position that they could have allowed the 210.21 single
> receptacle section to apply only to receptacles larger than 20 amps,
> while eliminating using a 20A on a 15 circuit. I see their point in
> the case of larger receptacles not always matching the load/breaker
> you want to use.
> In the case of the far more common 20Amp outlets, it's primarily an
> issue of avoiding unnecessary confusion to the extent possible. And
> I can't see how allowing a 20A receptacle on any 15A circuit does
> anything buy cause confusion and encourage someone to plug something
> in to a receptacle marked 20 amps on a circuit that can't handle it
> and will trip the breaker.
I agree. The problem, IMHO, is that there is a lot of equipment that can
draw over 15A that has a 20A plug.
I don't see a problem with using a 30A twist lock receptacle on a 15A
circuit. You don't get equipment with a 30A twist lock plug.
Note that the same code panel does not think that a 20A plug should be
on equipment that has a rating of more than 16A.
>
>> ================================
>> One of the other posts in this thread, by you, looks at table
>> 210.21-B-2, which limits the load at any receptacle (when there are 2 or
>> more) to 80% of the circuit rating. I said there was a proposal to
>> change that in a previous code cycle.
>>
>> There were proposals for 2002 (the oldest one I looked at), 2005, 2008
>> and 2011 to eliminate the table or make it apply only to continuous
>> loads (as the 80% rule is applied elsewhere in the code). All were rejected.
IMHO this is a similar head-in-the-sand problem with the same code panel.
The arguments that are often made to change table 210.21-B-2 to apply
only to "continuous" loads are:
1 elsewhere in the NEC the derate to 80% is for "continuous loads"
2 it is a requirement that regulates what happens after the inspector
leaves and is unenforceable
3 UL listed equipment (probably only non-continuous) is readily
available that violates the rule.
I agree with all 3 arguments.
I do not remember a rational from the code panel that made sense to me.
One response is that UL is wrong - no reason why.
The only rule I offhand remember that is in enforced after the
inspector leaves is access space in front of panels, which is in a new
thread, and I believe is heavily enforced by other inspectors.
--
bud--
tra...@optonline.net
> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010 09:59:30 -0500, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com>
> wrote:
>
> >As I said, IMHO a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit can be tagged under
> >403.6-A. Greg?
>
> I agree there is some ambiguous language in the text of 210.21(B)(3)
> but when 406.3(A) directly addresses table 210.21(B)(3) it seems clear
> to me.
The problem is that 210.21(b)(3) clearly says it and the table apply
to circuits with more than one receptacle. And everyone is in
agreement that using a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit with more than one
receptacle is not allowed. It's 210.21(b)(1) that addresses the
issue of a single outlet.