Rethinking "Made in China"
David Nebenzahl
I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
Now it is true that a lot of crap--boatloads of it, literally--does come
from that great country. We've all seen it, used it, chucked it out.
But bear in mind the historical precedent: some of you are probably old
enough to remember the similar tarring of anything that had the label
"Made in Japan" on it. Anything Japanese was considered worthless.
Compare to today.
I'm finding more and more that "Made in China" really doesn't mean
anything about the quality of an item. Clearly, Chinese workers, as
underpaid as they may be, are quite capable of making anything as well
as anyone else in any other part of the world.
Part of the problem is that we're placing blame in the wrong place. The
*real* problem seems to be "Made in [anyplace] but designed in the U.S.
[or some other place]". A lot, if not most, of what I would call
"Chinese junk" is actually made as well as the design would allow for,
including the materials used and the amount of labor committed to
finishing the item. So in many cases Chinese factories are making
faithful copies of a shitty design that may well have come from some
designer's computah right here in The Greatest Industrial Power on Earth
(the US of A).
I predict the Chinese are following the same arc that the Japanese did
after WWII, with variations, of course; there's no Marshall Plan, and
the countries are vastly different. Nonetheless, I can forsee the day
when "Made in China" is no longer a call for derision.
By way of showing just how wrong people can be when predicting who's
winning the industrial game, here's a hilariously and astoundingly wrong
prediction about the Japanese and American photographic industries from
1946: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-136.html
--
I am a Canadian who was born and raised in The Netherlands. I live on
Planet Earth on a spot of land called Canada. We have noisy neighbours.
- harvested from Usenet
Chris Friesen
> I'm finding more and more that "Made in China" really doesn't mean
> anything about the quality of an item. Clearly, Chinese workers, as
> underpaid as they may be, are quite capable of making anything as well
> as anyone else in any other part of the world.
True.
However, going by various comments written by people in the industry,
there also seems to be a cultural impetus to try and push the lower
boundaries of the quality standards. So if a Chinese factory contracts
for a given level of quality there is a tendency for that level to drop
over time unless the company that hired them keeps on top of things.
I suspect this holds true to a certain extent in many places, but he
impression that I have gotten (from various places) is that this is
worse when dealing with Chinese manufacturers.
Chris
Swingman
> I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
You mean like drywall, C-Less' "64GB USB Drive", and the stuff at Harbor
Fright?
A rose by any other name ...
Fuck China, and "Made in USA", for that matter ... I'm buying "European"
like Laguna, Festool, Omer, et al products every chance I get these days.
I want value for what few of my hard earned $$ I get to keep, not some
price point engineered POS with an advertising budget.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Chris Friesen
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
>> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
>
> You mean like drywall, C-Less' "64GB USB Drive", and the stuff at Harbor
> Fright?
>
> A rose by any other name ...
>
> Fuck China, and "Made in USA", for that matter ... I'm buying "European"
> like Laguna, Festool, Omer, et al products every chance I get these days.
Funny you mention Laguna...some of their stuff is made in China.
What about Lie-Nielsen and Starrett? Or General and Veritas and Oneway
from Canada?
Chris
nor...@earthlink.net
> This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.
>
> I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
>
> Now it is true that a lot of crap--boatloads of it, literally--does come
> from that great country. We've all seen it, used it, chucked it out.
>
> But bear in mind the historical precedent: some of you are probably old
> enough to remember the similar tarring of anything that had the label
> "Made in Japan" on it. Anything Japanese was considered worthless.
> Compare to today.
>
> I'm finding more and more that "Made in China" really doesn't mean
> anything about the quality of an item. Clearly, Chinese workers, as
> underpaid as they may be, are quite capable of making anything as well
> as anyone else in any other part of the world.
>
> Part of the problem is that we're placing blame in the wrong place. The
> *real* problem seems to be "Made in [anyplace] but designed in the U.S.
> [or some other place]". A lot, if not most, of what I would call
> "Chinese junk" is actually made as well as the design would allow for,
Anyone who wants to sell anything in a competing market has to make it
as cheaply as can be done in Mexico, China, Bangladesh, etc....what they
make is done under an entirely different labor economy (and socialized
medicine, probably). But you know that already.
> including the materials used and the amount of labor committed to
> finishing the item. So in many cases Chinese factories are making
> faithful copies of a shitty design that may well have come from some
> designer's computah right here in The Greatest Industrial Power on Earth
> (the US of A).
>
> I predict the Chinese are following the same arc that the Japanese did
> after WWII, with variations, of course; there's no Marshall Plan, and
> the countries are vastly different. Nonetheless, I can forsee the day
> when "Made in China" is no longer a call for derision.
>
> By way of showing just how wrong people can be when predicting who's
> winning the industrial game, here's a hilariously and astoundingly wrong
> prediction about the Japanese and American photographic industries from
> 1946: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-136.html
>
>
When I was a little kid, we always included "the starving children in
China" in our prayers (hadn't discovered Africa yet). Just to show how
times have changed.....just the other day, this wonderful, sweet
missionary knocked on our door. He handed me $5, a bag of rice and a
dead duck. He didn't speak clear English, but left a pamphlet in
Chinese and badly translated English inviting all of the neighborhood
children to Buddhist services. It also mentioned that all the
neighborhood children would be welcome at classes to learn to speak and
write Chinese, gardening, raising livestock, building inexpensive
housing, cooking with a wok, using alternative fuels, and respect for
elders. It also said that the Chinese had saved so much money, they
were buying America and sending homesteaders over to run the country
properly. ;o)
Edward A. Falk
Chris Friesen <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote:
>
>However, going by various comments written by people in the industry,
>there also seems to be a cultural impetus to try and push the lower
>boundaries of the quality standards. So if a Chinese factory contracts
>for a given level of quality there is a tendency for that level to drop
>over time unless the company that hired them keeps on top of things.
Keeping on top of things is the key. A friend of mine had a product
made in China. He spec'ed fire-resistant plastic for the casing. As
soon as his back was turned, they switched to cheaper plastic and his
house (where he was storing his inventory) burned down as a result.
On the other hand, if you keep your own quality control inspectors
on site, you can get great stuff out of China. Apple's MacBook computers
are all made there, for instance.
--
-Ed Falk, fa...@despams.r.us.com
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
Jules
> This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.
>
> I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else - but if people want to pay
for crap that breaks after a few months so that they then have to go
out and buy more crap, then that's what the Chinese will happily make...
Problem is, *everyone* does it. It's almost impossible for a company to
exist on the basis of making a 'quality' product any more - which means
that even if the individual wants to pay extra for something that'll last,
the product simply doesn't exist.
cheers
Jules
Swingman
> They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There are
> talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.
HeyBub
> Jules wrote:
>
>> They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
>> are talented folk there, same as anywhere else
>
> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
> engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
> spaceships.
The Europeans built a spaceship? I think Flash Gordon was an American...
Last I heard, the Europeans were trying to put up their own GPS satellite
system - for reasons passing understanding.
Caesar Romano
<nor...@earthlink.net> wrote Re Re: Rethinking "Made in China":
>> I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
>> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
Well, that's what the said about Japanese stuff in the late 50's. I
expect the same result from China.
They are on the way up, and we are on the way down.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
keit...@gmail.com
> Jules wrote:
> > They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There are
> > talented folk there, same as anywhere else
>
> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
> engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
> spaceships.
Yeah, Japanese saws suck.
Percival P. Cassidy
<snip>
> I predict the Chinese are following the same arc that the Japanese did
> after WWII, with variations, of course; there's no Marshall Plan, and
> the countries are vastly different. Nonetheless, I can forsee the day
> when "Made in China" is no longer a call for derision.
>
> By way of showing just how wrong people can be when predicting who's
> winning the industrial game, here's a hilariously and astoundingly wrong
> prediction about the Japanese and American photographic industries from
> 1946: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-136.html
In UK in the late 1950s already, when I was becoming seriously
interested in photography, I don't think any American cameras were
considered high quality. The really good stuff was Leica (German) and
Hasselblad (Swedish? -- both mucho expensivo). Praktica (E. German) was
OK. Some of the Japanese brands were coming onto the market, IIRC. I'm
not sure that Kodak was considered a serious photographer's camera.
Perce
nor...@earthlink.net
Olympus made at least one fantastic camera around that time - or was it
the early sixties? I had an Olympus PenE, half frame SLR that took
fantastic pictures.
Leon
"Chris Friesen" <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote in message
news:QOSdneUng4BE3rTW...@posted.sasktel...
> Funny you mention Laguna...some of their stuff is made in China.
I suspect Tiawan, I could be wrong. Also Bulgaria, and Italy.
Leon
"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:HNydndZbjpDBo7TW...@giganews.com...
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
>> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
>
> You mean like drywall, C-Less' "64GB USB Drive", and the stuff at Harbor
> Fright?
>
> A rose by any other name ...
>
> Fuck China, and "Made in USA", for that matter ... I'm buying "European"
> like Laguna, Festool, Omer, et al products every chance I get these days.
You got something Italian on order again? Lagu....
Leon
"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:Bu-dnSyYjKKo_bTW...@earthlink.com...
> Swingman wrote:
>> Jules wrote:
>>
>>> They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
>>> are talented folk there, same as anywhere else
>>
>> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
>> engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
>> spaceships.
>
> The Europeans built a spaceship? I think Flash Gordon was an American...
No, Flesh Gordon was the American... ;~)
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
> engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
> spaceships.
-------------------------------------------
During my days on the design board in the late 50s, had several
European immigrants in my design group.
They would spend all kinds of time designing complex weldments to use
the least amount of material but usually involved lots of welding
time.
It was understandable.
Europe had been flattened during WWII and materials were scarce in
Europe.
Had to constantly remind these guys that the equipment we were
designing was being sold by the pound, not the complexity of design.
Lew
cse...@mts.net
>>
>>
>When I was a little kid, we always included "the starving children in
>China" in our prayers (hadn't discovered Africa yet). Just to show how
>times have changed.....just the other day, this wonderful, sweet
>missionary knocked on our door. He handed me $5, a bag of rice and a
>dead duck. He didn't speak clear English, but left a pamphlet in
>Chinese and badly translated English inviting all of the neighborhood
>children to Buddhist services.
THIS PART is the best.....
> It also mentioned that all the
>neighborhood children would be welcome at classes to learn to speak and
>write Chinese, gardening, raising livestock, building inexpensive
>housing, cooking with a wok, using alternative fuels, and respect for
>elders. It also said that the Chinese had saved so much money, they
>were buying America and sending homesteaders over to run the country
>properly. ;o)
Seems like this has already happened with the Japanese and Germans
Larry C
<nor...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:YOmdnRQL7ebP9LTW...@earthlink.com...
> Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
<snip>
As another poster said. They make what we ask them to make, or they make
what we will buy. I think the latter is the truer statement. If everybody
who said (myself included) "I am sick of buying cheap crap from China"
actually stopped buying cheap crap from China. They would make better crap.
How do we all stop buying stuff made in China. I have no idea. While
picking up the family Christmas cards at Wal-Mart tonight the kids wanted
Santa hats. $1.50 a piece - made in China. I bought 2, my Dunkins this
morning cost more.
To the poster who mentioned about how Japanese made used to be a joke. When
I was a kid, I am 46 now, my dad owned a NAPA store. I can remember the
comments when a customer came in to purchase parts for a Datsun or a Toyota.
The joke was the price of the replacement part would double the value of the
car. Not so much anymore.
Larry C
notbob
>
> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
What nonsense. I've had plenty of Euro made items that were junk,
including German made. Italy makes enough crap to drag the whole
continent's curve below avg! ;)
nb
J. Clarke
As for European engineering in general, anybody who thinks that it's all
high quality hasn't fettled a brand new British-made Stanley shoulder plane.
Swingman
Tsk, tsk ... you get into space on "rockets", Bubba ... Wernher Von Braun
Nuff said ...
notbob
> To the poster who mentioned about how Japanese made used to be a joke. When
> I was a kid, I am 46 now, my dad owned a NAPA store. I can remember the
> comments when a customer came in to purchase parts for a Datsun or a Toyota.
> The joke was the price of the replacement part would double the value of the
> car. Not so much anymore.
Then the pendulum swung the other way and Japanese products were
considered the best (cameras, electronics, etc) when, in fact, they
were no more great than when they were considered crap. I had a
closet full of dead Japanese stuff that barely made it to warranty.
Perception is a lot of it.
The price thing about car parts is a little more complicated. When
Japanese cars first hit our shores, parts were insane. $600 for one
CV joint for a Civic. Later, aftermarket mfrs/rebuilders got
into the act and drove prices waaaay down. I bought a PAIR of rebuilt
joints for the same car for $125. Later, when rebuilding a Honda
alternator, I got Honda parts cheaper from the dealer than the local
discount parts store. Pays to shop around.
nb
David Nebenzahl
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> By way of showing just how wrong people can be when predicting
>> who's winning the industrial game, here's a hilariously and
>> astoundingly wrong prediction about the Japanese and American
>> photographic industries from 1946:
>> http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-136.html
>
> In UK in the late 1950s already, when I was becoming seriously
> interested in photography, I don't think any American cameras were
> considered high quality. The really good stuff was Leica (German) and
> Hasselblad (Swedish? -- both mucho expensivo). Praktica (E. German) was
> OK. Some of the Japanese brands were coming onto the market, IIRC. I'm
> not sure that Kodak was considered a serious photographer's camera.
Kodak did make some cameras used by serious photogs, even after the
Japanese kicked our asses in that arena, but they were mostly obscure
models used by specialists. Like their view (studio) cameras and lenses
made for aerial photography, to name a couple. Their one top-of-the-line
35mm camera (the Ektra) was already out of production by that time.
After that, about the best they could come up with were consumer-level
cameras, like the Instamatic, which they did sell by the millions. But
all high-quality stuff was, as you point out, either German (Leica,
Voigtlander), Swedish (Hassy), or, mostly, Japanese (lessee: Nikon,
Canon, Ricoh, Minolta, Miranda, Yashica, Olympus, Bronica, Fuji, etc., etc.
The single exception I can think of is the Graflex press cameras (Crown
and Speed Graphics), made here in the US and used around the world up
through the 1970s.
Too_Many_Tools
wrote:
Interesting discussion.
I think also much of the "blame" is upon the buyer.....how much will
each of us pay for more quality?
We get what we pay for...if you want better, then vote with your
dollars and companies will hear you.
TMT
Swingman
> On 2009-12-16, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
>> engineering for built-in quality.....
>
> What nonsense. I've had plenty of Euro made items that were junk,
> including German made.
What nonsense? ... you can't be that dense, eh? Shit happens in every
country, culture, civilization - past, present, and future.
> Italy makes enough crap to drag the whole
> continent's curve below avg! ;)
Then there's my handmade, Omer pin nailer, one of the best engineered
nail guns that money can buy, made in Italy.
Once again, there is NOTHING like it, and it is "European engineered".
Doug Miller
>As for European engineering in general, anybody who thinks that it's all
>high quality hasn't fettled a brand new British-made Stanley shoulder plane.
Or owned a Fiat...
Lew Hodgett
> By way of showing just how wrong people can be when predicting
> who's winning the industrial game, here's a hilariously and
> astoundingly wrong prediction about the Japanese and American
> photographic industries from 1946:
-----------------------------------------------------
During the 60s, I was involved with bearing applications for
automotive electrical systems.
There are more basic 203 ball bearings manufactured than all the rest
of the bearing sizes combined.
Had the guy representing Japanese bearings come calling with some
impressive stats as well as very attractive pricing.
As a bearing supplier competitor remarked, "First the bearings, then
the alternator, vacuum sweeper, etc."
Took about 15-20 years, but they got there.
Lew
Tim Daneliuk
> Jules wrote:
>
>> They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There are
>> talented folk there, same as anywhere else
>
> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
> engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
> spaceships.
>
They said that about Japan in 1960. That nation then went on to hand
Europe and the US their butts in the manufacturing of optics,
electronics, and so forth.
Quality is not just a data point. It is a curve with the y-axis being
price and the x-axis being quality. The curve rises asymptotically as
you move to the right. The question is not "is it high quality?" The
more usual question is, "Is it high enough quality for the desired
task at hand AND is it worth the asking price?" Sometimes the quality
you need justifies asymptotic costs - say when life support is
involved. At other times a fairly low level of quality is all you need
or are willing to pay for - say a tool you will only use once to solve
a specific problem.
There are many examples of very successful companies and industries
that learned how to manufacture "good enough" technology for some
purpose. Microsoft is a great example of this. There were far better
technologies around when Microsoft first entered the desktop OS
business. But Microsoft figured out how to commoditize it at a price
people could live with. Was it "high quality"? No, but it was "good
enough" quality for the overwhelming majority of people and a
multi-billion dollar industry (and company) was born.
That said, my experience for most tools is that saving money is a
false economy. Good tools tend to last for the lifetime of the owner -
or at least a very long time. Short term savings end up biting you in
the hindquarters later on when you have to buy a replacement tool.
Incidentally, I'd argue that the Japanese are very much on par with
the Europeans for many classes of tools these days. A Mitutoyo digital
caliper is every bit the equal of a Brown & Sharpe for considerably
less money, for example.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk tun...@tundraware.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
Tim Daneliuk
They were concerned that something integral to their national defense
systems was under the exclusive control of the US.
Swingman
Then there's Rolls Royce, Bentley, Mercedes, BMW, the Lamborghini
Reventon , Maserati, the Bugatti Veyron, the McLaren F1, and the Pagani,
to name just a few examples of "European engineering" that there is
NOTHING else like.
Tim Daneliuk
> On 12/16/2009 3:03 PM Percival P. Cassidy spake thus:
>
>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>
>>> By way of showing just how wrong people can be when predicting
>>> who's winning the industrial game, here's a hilariously and
>>> astoundingly wrong prediction about the Japanese and American
>>> photographic industries from 1946:
>>> http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-136.html
>>
>> In UK in the late 1950s already, when I was becoming seriously
>> interested in photography, I don't think any American cameras were
>> considered high quality. The really good stuff was Leica (German) and
>> Hasselblad (Swedish? -- both mucho expensivo). Praktica (E. German)
>> was OK. Some of the Japanese brands were coming onto the market, IIRC.
>> I'm not sure that Kodak was considered a serious photographer's camera.
>
> Kodak did make some cameras used by serious photogs, even after the
> Japanese kicked our asses in that arena, but they were mostly obscure
> models used by specialists. Like their view (studio) cameras and lenses
> made for aerial photography, to name a couple. Their one top-of-the-line
> 35mm camera (the Ektra) was already out of production by that time.
> After that, about the best they could come up with were consumer-level
> cameras, like the Instamatic, which they did sell by the millions. But
> all high-quality stuff was, as you point out, either German (Leica,
> Voigtlander), Swedish (Hassy), or, mostly, Japanese (lessee: Nikon,
> Canon, Ricoh, Minolta, Miranda, Yashica, Olympus, Bronica, Fuji, etc., etc.
Having owned German optics for many years I can attest to their
superiority over the Japanese glass. However this comes at a
staggering cost. A great pro medium-format wide angle lens from Japan
may run around $2000 (or less). The equivalent Hasselblad Distagon
(German optics) is well over twice that. You are way out on the right
side of the price-quality curve where it goes asymptotic - you're paying
double or more to get perhaps 5% better performance, and then only in
the most demanding of cases.
> The single exception I can think of is the Graflex press cameras (Crown
> and Speed Graphics), made here in the US and used around the world up
> through the 1970s.
These were- and are- wonderful cameras. They're even better when you
throw away the coke bottle lenses (Ektars) that came with them and shove
a nice German Schneider onto the snout of the camera :)
J. Clarke
The high quality Japanese stuff came a decade or more after the high quality
German stuff. But then the Japanese did the thing that they do best,
fiddling with the design to see what people like and what people don't like,
and ended up eating the Germans' lunch--the Germans were so sure that they
knew the _right_ way to do things that they wouldn't fiddle around with the
design to compete with the Japanese. But the Germans still excel at optical
design--Panasonic and Sony both use the Germans for lens design.
In some markets though that approach didn't work, computers being one.
Tony Hwang
> On 12/16/2009 01:39 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> I'm finding more and more that "Made in China" really doesn't mean
>> anything about the quality of an item. Clearly, Chinese workers, as
>> underpaid as they may be, are quite capable of making anything as well
>> as anyone else in any other part of the world.
>
> True.
>
> However, going by various comments written by people in the industry,
> there also seems to be a cultural impetus to try and push the lower
> boundaries of the quality standards. So if a Chinese factory contracts
> for a given level of quality there is a tendency for that level to drop
> over time unless the company that hired them keeps on top of things.
>
> I suspect this holds true to a certain extent in many places, but he
> impression that I have gotten (from various places) is that this is
> worse when dealing with Chinese manufacturers.
>
> Chris
>
Hi,
Not only Chinese, that is human nature. You have to be vigilant on quality.
Tony Hwang
> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
>
> Fright?
>
> A rose by any other name ...
>
> Fuck China, and "Made in USA", for that matter ... I'm buying "European"
> like Laguna, Festool, Omer, et al products every chance I get these days.
>
> price point engineered POS with an advertising budget.
>
Hmmm,
Made U.S.A. Made in EU" Really? 100%?
Economy stands on bottom line these days.
You can't fuck China, she is too big/powerful now.
Lew Hodgett
> Once again, there is NOTHING like it, and it is "European
> engineered".
====================================
Depends.
Germans build most of the cars.
Italians sew some great shoes and great hand built cars, tailored
suits and what great food.
I wouldn't want a car built by the French.
The Dutch provide some great chocolate manufacturing machinery.
Then there are the Swiss. If you have to ask, you can't afford.
So it depends.
===============================
Having represented several European instrument manufacturers over the
years, it is obvious they have a whole different way of looking at
things.
Europeans expect to perform routine maintenance on a regular basis,
while for the most part US users have adopted the Andrew Carnegie
approach of install the equipment, run it till it drops, remove to the
junk yard, and install new equipment.
Most European equipment will not survive without regular maintenance,
USA goods OTOH, usually will for an extended period of time.
BTDT, no T-shirt needed.
Lew
Steve
<nor...@earthlink.net> said:
> Anyone who wants to sell anything in a competing market has to make it
> as cheaply as can be done in Mexico, China, Bangladesh, etc....what
> they make is done under an entirely different labor economy (and
> socialized medicine, probably). But you know that already.
This is called marketing to a price point. One interesting extension to
this is Fender guitars -- how much to you want to pay for your Strat?
Indonesian, Chinese, Korean, Mexican, or American?
From the audience, they all look pretty much the same*. But to the
experienced player...
*Except for the ones "lovingly" aged, that is, and you'll pay dearly
for someone beatin' the Hell out of your axe.
Lew Hodgett
"Tony Hwang" wrote:
> Hmmm,
> Made U.S.A. Made in EU" Really? 100%?
> Economy stands on bottom line these days.
> You can't fuck China, she is too big/powerful now.
You don't usually fuck your banker or a big customer.
Lew
Swingman
> You can't fuck China, she is too big/powerful now.
When "she" starts making quality, innovative, well engineered tools like
Festool does I'll start buying Chinese. Until then, in a tool buying
sense, fuck China, and the US also ... just in case you think there is
discrimination involved.
People who work with their hands know the difference ... keep that in mind.
Swingman
> This is called marketing to a price point.
Much worse than that, with regard to quality, is 'engineering to a price
point".
Tony Hwang
> Tony Hwang wrote:
>
>> You can't fuck China, she is too big/powerful now.
>
> When "she" starts making quality, innovative, well engineered tools like
> Festool does I'll start buying Chinese. Until then, in a tool buying
> sense, fuck China, and the US also ... just in case you think there is
> discrimination involved.
>
> People who work with their hands know the difference ... keep that in mind.
>
I am not Chinese, LOL!
Tony Hwang
Discerning hands and ears can tell. Actually real good hands can make
any axe sound good but it is more difficult. Only poor craftsman blames
the tool. BTW, I have quite a few vintage LP, Fender, Gibson, Martin,
etc. and Marshall, Fender, Boogie, etc. in my basement studio.
Jules
> Interesting discussion.
>
> I think also much of the "blame" is upon the buyer.....how much will
> each of us pay for more quality?
>
> We get what we pay for...if you want better, then vote with your
> dollars and companies will hear you.
Yes, but my point is that there are times you *can't* pay for quality. My
fridge/freezer is over 30 years old and still going - but I don't think I
could walk into any modern appliance store and say "sell me a fridge
that'll still be going in 2039".
cheers
Jules
CW
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4b2936e3$0$32651$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
> This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.
>
> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
>
> from that great country. We've all seen it, used it, chucked it out.
>
> But bear in mind the historical precedent: some of you are probably old
> enough to remember the similar tarring of anything that had the label
> "Made in Japan" on it. Anything Japanese was considered worthless. Compare
> to today.
I have made this point on this newsgroup and elsewhere. At the time "made in
Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan. You could buy anything you could ever
want. The quality ranged from junk to the finest quality you'd find
anywhere. Lots of the technology in common use there had not even been seen
in the US (at least not by Joe Average).What perpetuated the "Japanese junk"
idea was the American importers. Junk was extremely cheap, so much so that,
even with a substantial markup, they could still sell it cheap enough here
that people would buy it. They (the importers) new that high quality was
available but there was no moony in it. The Chinese are in the same position
now. High quality is available in China but no one is bringing it into the
US. There is no money in it.
>
CW
"Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:RfydnbnUXfQV8rTW...@giganews.com...
> HeyBub wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> Jules wrote:
>>>
>>>> They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
>>>> are talented folk there, same as anywhere else
>>> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
>>> engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
>>> spaceships.
>>
>> The Europeans built a spaceship? I think Flash Gordon was an American...
>>
>> Last I heard, the Europeans were trying to put up their own GPS satellite
>> system - for reasons passing understanding.
>
> Tsk, tsk ... you get into space on "rockets", Bubba ... Wernher Von Braun
>
imported Germany's best scientists.
David Nebenzahl
I disagree; I have a Crown with the Ektar 127mm lens, and it's sharp as
a tack. The lens to stay away from here, apparently, and surprisingly,
is the Xenar, which is usually a great piece of glass but for some
reason the ones found with Graphics usually suck. The Optars that a lot
others come with is just so-so.
What I'd really like to get my hands on would be one of Kodak's wide
field Ektars (speaking of quality American-made stuff). Check these out
on eBay--they usually sell for really big $$$. (Of course, a Super
Angulon would be nice too ...)
Swingman
> Discerning hands and ears can tell. Actually real good hands can make
> any axe sound good but it is more difficult.
Well said ...
Only poor craftsman blames
> the tool. BTW, I have quite a few vintage LP, Fender, Gibson, Martin,
> etc. and Marshall, Fender, Boogie, etc. in my basement studio.
Cool ... my main axe is a '61 Fender Jazz.
Just for grins, some "American engineering" ... :)
http://www.e-woodshop.net/images/61Fender.jpg
...and it sounds like this:
http://www.wildriverband.com/Media/Let Me Go Home Whiskey.wma
LDosser
news:hgbiuq$ons$2...@blue.rahul.net...
> In article <5rSdnTIuf4x9oLTW...@posted.sasktel>,
> Chris Friesen <cbf...@mail.usask.ca> wrote:
>>
>>However, going by various comments written by people in the industry,
>>there also seems to be a cultural impetus to try and push the lower
>>boundaries of the quality standards. So if a Chinese factory contracts
>>for a given level of quality there is a tendency for that level to drop
>>over time unless the company that hired them keeps on top of things.
>
> made in China. He spec'ed fire-resistant plastic for the casing. As
> soon as his back was turned, they switched to cheaper plastic and his
> house (where he was storing his inventory) burned down as a result.
How did plastic casings which were not fire resistant cause his house to
burn down? One suspects there was a Lot of inflammable stuff in his house.
LDosser
news:00a5587e$0$13091$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
A more apt analogy for China is our national cocaine dealer.
LDosser
news:hgbsk7$m3m$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Or an MG ...
Tim Daneliuk
On 12/16/2009 8:04 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
> On 12/16/2009 4:26 PM Tim Daneliuk spake thus:
>
>> On 12/16/2009 5:56 PM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>
>>> The single exception I can think of is the Graflex press cameras (Crown
>>> and Speed Graphics), made here in the US and used around the world up
>>> through the 1970s.
>>
>> These were- and are- wonderful cameras. They're even better when you
>> throw away the coke bottle lenses (Ektars) that came with them and shove
>> a nice German Schneider onto the snout of the camera :)
>
> I disagree; I have a Crown with the Ektar 127mm lens, and it's sharp as
> a tack. The lens to stay away from here, apparently, and surprisingly,
> is the Xenar, which is usually a great piece of glass but for some
> reason the ones found with Graphics usually suck. The Optars that a lot
> others come with is just so-so.
Now that I think about it, you're probably right. It was the Xenar
that was a dog. And, yes, the WF Ektars are still highly prized.
>
> What I'd really like to get my hands on would be one of Kodak's wide
> field Ektars (speaking of quality American-made stuff). Check these
> out on eBay--they usually sell for really big $$$. (Of course, a
> Super Angulon would be nice too ...)
I have a modern 72mm SA XL that will cover 5x7 but I use it on a 4x5
field camera. A number of years ago I was shooting some of the bluffs
in Zion National Park when another photographer asked if he could peek
under the dark cloth. He was shaking his head and laughing when he
stepped back and said, "You can see your toes with that lens." It's
pretty amazing. From ground level I could capture the top of the
bluffs (about 400-500 feet up) all the way down to the rocks in the
foreground with enough movements to correct all the perspective I
needed. The lens is, however, a beast, requiring a 95mm filter and
bag bellows on the field camera.
BRUCE
to baby formula, dog food, cereal and milk.
STILL putting dangerous levels (as if there is a "safe" level) of lead
paint on most of the toys they export.
Chinese drywall was fun too. Everything from electrical appliances to
baby furniture, blankets clothing and teething rings are constantly
being recalled, but I guess you're right. They unfairly get a bad
reputation. We should just man up and buy their dangerous goods. What
the hell, we all gotta die from something right?
And lets not forget that we lost 2 million jobs to China during the Bush
years.
J. Clarke
So what percentage of the engineers working on Apollo were German?
Hint--go to Youtube and search on "Disney Moon" and you'll find that the
concept that Von Braun was pushing pre-Apollo was considerably different
from what actually flew (and before you make some ignorant sneering remark
about Disney, do the search and watch the episode).
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
And Canada's. All the brains behind the Avro Arrow put the Yanks into
space and onto the moon.
Strategic move on the part of the Americans to pressure Dief into
canning the Arrow.
RonB
> This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.
>
> I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
> shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
>
current global economy; and the history of our own manufacturing
problems.
Today, there are relatively few items truly manufactured in USA,
China, Japan, Mexico or anywhere. To slam a product just because it
is made in Taiwan or China doesn't make sense anymore especially when
you look at metal and woodworking tools sold by companies like
Grizzly. Many of the parts and castings in "old American" products
like Powermatic now come from the east. Much of the airframe and
wiring in venerable aircraft like the Beech Bonanza and King Air are
manufactured in Mexico and assembled in Kansas; avionics guts come
from the east. Most electronic components used in fine old American
TVs and audio components come from China, Japan or Korea.
On the other side, a complete lapse in U.S. quality control, during
the 1970's, allowed the Japanese to to run completely over the US auto
industry. But now look at Toyota. They are building cars, to high
standards, at several U.S. facilities. This is probably good because
the high cost of maintaining union demands has all but shut down
Detroit and other auto manufacturing centers. This is doubly tragic
because Detroit was finally starting to build some quality cars again.
The world is changing and made in ("anywhere") is a thing of the
past. We have seen a strong trend toward survival of the fittest
during the past year and those who can produce quality at a reasonable
cost will probably win (or be taken over by government).
My job is to take care of my business by buying the best I can with
what I have. If I can buy the same quality and function for 20-40%
less the decision is easy.
RonB
Lew Hodgett
"CW" wrote:
> Yes, the success of the American space program was due to imports.
> They imported Germany's best scientists.
The same is true of digital photography and fiber optics.
Both developed in the US by non US citizens.
Lew
Leon
"Tony Hwang" <drag...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:l5gWm.432$pA1...@newsfe17.iad...
snip
Snip
Only poor craftsman blames the tool.
Oh crap! I have heard the me too expression way too many times now.
Really and truly a poor craftsman "does not recognize" that he is not
working with quality tools.
A fine craftsman will remedy that situation with quality work through
quality tools.
Gordon Shumway
<nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>Part of the problem is that we're placing blame in the wrong place. The
>*real* problem seems to be "Made in [anyplace] but designed in the U.S.
>[or some other place]". A lot, if not most, of what I would call
>"Chinese junk" is actually made as well as the design would allow for,
>including the materials used and the amount of labor committed to
>finishing the item. So in many cases Chinese factories are making
>faithful copies of a shitty design that may well have come from some
>designer's computah right here in The Greatest Industrial Power on Earth
>(the US of A)
I agree that the blame is being placed in the wrong place. However,
you and I don't agree on where it should be placed.
Too many consumers buy on price alone. Quality is only a concern when
the item fails. Often the replacement item is bought with the same
emphasis on price.
Until a higher percentage of consumers are willing to pay more for
quality we won't be able to find a better product at a consumer
outlet.
That is why places like Wal-Mart, K-mart, Home Depot, Menards and
others like them are able to thrive.
Gordon Shumway
Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.
Lew Hodgett
"RonB" wrote:
Much of the airframe and
wiring in venerable aircraft like the Beech Bonanza and King Air are
manufactured in Mexico and assembled in Kansas; avionics guts come
from the east.
------------------------------------------
"Beech Bonanza", or as described to me by a pilot in Tulsa, "Split
tailed doctor killer".
Lew
Lew Hodgett
"Jules" wrote:
> My
> fridge/freezer is over 30 years old and still going - but I don't
> think I
> could walk into any modern appliance store and say "sell me a fridge
> that'll still be going in 2039".
----------------------------------
It may still be operating, but at what efficiency?
There were some 1,000 watt mercury lamps on life test.
The rated life of the lamp was 20,000 hours.
Lamp was still operating after 20+ years of 24/7 service; however, the
light output was less than 5% of initial output.
Your reefer may be in the same mode.
Lew
Smitty Two
Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Jules wrote:
>
> > They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There are
> > talented folk there, same as anywhere else
>
> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
> engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
> spaceships.
The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.
Swingman
WHAT??? LOL ... surely you jest??
Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit
the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
Sheessh, it's sad, this total failure of the educational system and the
resultant ignorance!
Swingman
thickheaded cavilers who continue to harp on the exceptions to show
their asses and ignorance.
Arguably, we were standing on the shoulders of giants when it came to
innovative engineering and quality, for much, if not most of "New World"
engineering impetus which resulted in the much vaunted "Made in USA"
label of the 20th century, was due to European immigration to the
America's, bringing their traditions going back to craftsman's guilds
and their pioneering of early engineering principles in Europe since
Roman times.
AAMOF, Canada, almost alone in the America's today with products like
Veritas, seems to still exhibit manifestations of these traditions;
instead of the price point engineered, MBA driven POS being produced by
Chinese proxy for the United Corporations of America.
As far as many woodworking tools today, it is a FACT that if you really
want quality, innovation, and excellence in engineering, you look first
to European manufacturers like Festool, a shining example of innovation
and quality through engineering which you will find no place else on
earth in this, the first decade of the 21st century.
It's sad, but a fact ...
DD_BobK
<dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:
> In article <hgc6rg22...@news2.newsguy.com>, J. Clarke
> Canada after the Avro Arrow project was canceled by the Diefenbaker
> Conservative government.
>
> <http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/Avroengineers.html>
Not to discount the contribution of these aforementioned Canadian
engineers but realistically how many were enticed to come to the US
AND how many US scientists and engineers were working at NASA at the
time? (also consider the number of S & E's working for contractors as
well)
Did these Canadian engineers represent 1%? 5% 10% 25% ?
cheers
Bob
LDosser
> Smitty Two wrote:
>> In article <X-ydnZeD1_KzwLTW...@giganews.com>,
>> Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Jules wrote:
>>>
>>>> They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
>>>> are
>>>> talented folk there, same as anywhere else
>>> They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
>>> engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
>>> spaceships.
>>
>> The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.
>
> WHAT??? LOL ... surely you jest??
>
> Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles known
> to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit the
> ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
Well, there was the little problem with the number three cylinder ...
The Daring Dufas
> Swingman wrote:
>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>>
>>> You can't fuck China, she is too big/powerful now.
>>
>> Festool does I'll start buying Chinese. Until then, in a tool buying
>> sense, fuck China, and the US also ... just in case you think there is
>> discrimination involved.
>>
>> People who work with their hands know the difference ... keep that in
>> mind.
>>
> Hi,
> I am not Chinese, LOL!
>
I thought you were a Canuck, eh?
TDD
The Daring Dufas
> In article <hgc6r...@news2.newsguy.com>, J. Clarke
> Canada after the Avro Arrow project was canceled by the Diefenbaker
> Conservative government.
>
> <http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/Avroengineers.html>
Didn't they all come here to Alabamastan to work on them dang rockets?
TDD
The Daring Dufas
When a country taxes and regulates business to death, what happens?
When labor unions become too big for their britches and so corrupt
that their behavior holds businesses hostage to their demands, the
business owners vote with their feet and go someplace else.
TDD
Lew Hodgett
"Swingman" wrote:
> Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
> known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history,
> hit the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
How many did you own?
Reliability was NOT my experience with a diesel Rabbit.
Lew
Lew
dadiOH
> In article <hgbqi...@news4.newsguy.com>, "J. Clarke"
> <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> As for European engineering in general, anybody who thinks that it's
>> all high quality hasn't fettled a brand new British-made Stanley
>> shoulder plane.
>
> Or owned a Fiat...
I'm the original owner of my 1973 Fiat 124 Spyder. It was my only car until
recently. It has been driven down steam beds in Mexico, over mountains,
across deserts, etc. It still runs and looks great. Biggest problem I've
had with it is "mechanics" screwing up stuff; surprising since it is so
mechanically simple but they manage.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
dadiOH
> On 12/16/2009 3:03 PM Percival P. Cassidy spake thus:
>> IIRC. I'm not sure that Kodak was considered a serious
>> photographer's camera.
>
> Kodak did make some cameras used by serious photogs, even after the
> Japanese kicked our asses in that arena, but they were mostly obscure
> models used by specialists. Like their view (studio) cameras and
> lenses made for aerial photography, to name a couple. Their one
> top-of-the-line 35mm camera (the Ektra) was already out of production
> by that time.
The Medalist was "pro" too.
___________
> After that, about the best they could come up with were consumer-level
> cameras, like the Instamatic, which they did sell by the millions. But
> all high-quality stuff was, as you point out, either German (Leica,
> Voigtlander), Swedish (Hassy), or, mostly, Japanese (lessee: Nikon,
> Canon, Ricoh, Minolta, Miranda, Yashica, Olympus, Bronica, Fuji,
> etc., etc.
You forgot Asahi. The Pentax was/is under rated.
____________
> The single exception I can think of is the Graflex press cameras
> (Crown and Speed Graphics), made here in the US and used around the
> world up through the 1970s.
Thank heavens they expired :)
dgk
wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <hgbqi...@news4.newsguy.com>, "J. Clarke"
>> <jclarke...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> As for European engineering in general, anybody who thinks that it's
>>> all high quality hasn't fettled a brand new British-made Stanley
>>> shoulder plane.
>>
>> Or owned a Fiat...
>
>I'm the original owner of my 1973 Fiat 124 Spyder. It was my only car until
>recently. It has been driven down steam beds in Mexico, over mountains,
>across deserts, etc. It still runs and looks great. Biggest problem I've
>had with it is "mechanics" screwing up stuff; surprising since it is so
>mechanically simple but they manage.
Many years ago I had a Fiat 124 Spyder. I called it the Fiat 124
Lemon. I did buy it used so perhaps it was just maintained terribly,
but almost every other week something went wrong. The alternator died,
the string operating the clutch broke, the transmission developed
problems, and just endless crap.
I guess it just depends on when it got put together.
nor...@earthlink.net
I think most folks are oblivious when it comes to the issues of cheap
vs. economical.....there is a huge difference.
I worked a few years in case management of Workers Compensation claims.
One employer had a dedicated department with about 16 nurses doing the
same work. I was the only one with experience in WC. One nurse denied
a $2 claim for a laxative for a client who needed pain medication for
serious burns. Narcotic pain meds cause constipation. My supv. was
constantly asking for paperwork after each client visit with physicians;
it was her first priority. Physicians don't sit down and type a report
after examining a patient - they dictate the report, it goes to a
transcription service, and gets published when it is ready. I didn't
bug my physicians for paperwork or anything else; in return, they picked
up the phone and called ME when there was an issue of interest,
including phony claims. I never chose a physician or provider based on
price....I regularly paid taxi fare to send a client out of town if the
appropriate specialist was not nearby. I saved $100K in one year (20%)
when I stopped using a particular "company doctor".
Unfortunately, the price of everything made in the US includes paying
for healthcare and the tremendous waste in the system - just fighting
over work-relatedness costs billions. If we had a one-payer system
(like Medicare), with built in serious audits, we could make cheaper
good stuff. Ain't gonna happen any time soon.
nor...@earthlink.net
Leon
"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote in message
news:161220092126090752%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca...
>>
> A surprising number of the best NASA scientists and engineers came from
> Canada after the Avro Arrow project was canceled by the Diefenbaker
> Conservative government.
>
> <http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/Avroengineers.html>
Considering that they were getting a better offer than staying in Canada,
the numbers may not be so suprising. What may be suprising is the number of
Canadian sientists that Canada could not hold on to.
Leon
>
> Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles known
> to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit the
> ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
I will have to disagree with you there. Kim and I bought a new 99 Jetta, it
left her stranded on the freeway 3 times under warranty the first 18 months,
and a dead battery replaced under warranty. That was the Mexico built
vehicle. Towed into the dealership and "no problem found " on the 3 rd time
we immediately traded for a German built 2000 Passat. We almost kept it 4
years. While we had it, it left Kim stranded 2 times, once was a faulty
starter relay, the second time another dead battery replaced by me. Then
there were numerous emissions problems, the need to replace both outer tie
rod ends at 30K, and the heater core at 43K. The transmission was showing
signs of failure. Traded for the 04 Accord at 47K. Both vehicles were
serviced more often than recommended by the dealer. The 99 Jetta and 2000
Passat were serviced/oil changed at 3K VW recommended every 10K. After
trading the Passat we got a factory letter rewording service intervals for
the turbo, every 3K and with synthetic oil. I saw that coming.
I bought the VW's on their past reputation.
Maybe my first VW's were a fluke but I'll probably never buy another.
>
> Sheessh, it's sad, this total failure of the educational system and the
> resultant ignorance!
Totally agree with that and I attribute the failure to poor teachers that
don't give a shit and that finally led to teachers that could not find a job
any where else. Long ago when teachers could step in as a parent and
administer discipline he or she could actually teach. We have lost teachers
that actually taught for baby sitters.
Leon
"Lew Hodgett" <sails...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:00a5af36$0$26915$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
>> known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit
>> the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
>
> How many did you own?
2, too many.
> Reliability was NOT my experience with a diesel Rabbit.
Same with the Jetta and the Passat, BIL was not happy with his Passat
either, trans problems.
Leon
>
> Your reefer may be in the same mode.
Reefer? ;~)
Jules
> "Jules" wrote:
>
>> My
>> fridge/freezer is over 30 years old and still going - but I don't
>> think I
>> could walk into any modern appliance store and say "sell me a fridge
>> that'll still be going in 2039".
>
> ----------------------------------
> It may still be operating, but at what efficiency?
Yes, I'm sure it's not good... but then for 7 months of the year up here
whatever losses it has are still going into the house as useful heat
anyway (and I don't run aircon in summer, so it's not like I'm using more
power to combat the inefficiency then either).
I did try estimating how much power it was using once (based on monthly
bills and the other stuff that we have running), and it wasn't that bad at
all; in terms of the difference in running costs between it and a new
fridge, I figured that a new replacement would have to run for at least
ten years before it paid for itself. Having seen the way most things are
engineered to a price these days, a decade might be asking a
little much :(
cheers
Jules
Swingman
> "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:paKdndhEwNEPM7TW...@giganews.com...
>> Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles known
>> to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit the
>> ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
>
> I will have to disagree with you there. Kim and I bought a new 99 Jetta, it
> left her stranded on the freeway 3 times under warranty the first 18 months,
> and a dead battery replaced under warranty. That was the Mexico built
> vehicle. Towed into the dealership and "no problem found " on the 3 rd time
> we immediately traded for a German built 2000 Passat. We almost kept it 4
> years. While we had it, it left Kim stranded 2 times, once was a faulty
> starter relay, the second time another dead battery replaced by me. Then
> there were numerous emissions problems, the need to replace both outer tie
> rod ends at 30K, and the heater core at 43K. The transmission was showing
> signs of failure. Traded for the 04 Accord at 47K. Both vehicles were
> serviced more often than recommended by the dealer. The 99 Jetta and 2000
> Passat were serviced/oil changed at 3K VW recommended every 10K. After
> trading the Passat we got a factory letter rewording service intervals for
> the turbo, every 3K and with synthetic oil. I saw that coming.
>
> I bought the VW's on their past reputation.
The "Volkswagen", the original design, is what I was talking about. Not
the price point engineered models they started making to woo and placate
the American consumer with the junk they prefer.
RonB
On the bright side, lawyers fly too.
The old V-tail is a good airplane but you can't overcome perception so
the went conventional.
The truth is, if anyone dies in an airplane, the manufacturer WILL BE
SUED. Back in the late 80's I was told that the first $80K of any
aircraft product price was built-in litigation expense. If you take
off with a near empty gas tank, no oil, drunk as a skunk and fly into
a box canyon; they still come after the manufacturer. We usually win
those, but spent millions keeping up with it. Even military products
collected lawyers.
RonB
Swingman
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
>> known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history,
>> hit the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
>
> How many did you own?
Two of the most reliable and economical cars I have ever owned, one late
50's model in Europe, and the other a 1960, both original design, and
probably still running today.
> Reliability was NOT my experience with a diesel Rabbit.
No wonder ... it was designed to give the American consumer the price
point designed trash he prefers.
Leon
"Jules" <jules.rich...@remove.this.gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2009.12.17....@remove.this.gmail.com...
Consider this, and my comparison is not an even one but you may want to look
at other appliances also.
I have been keeping records on a spread sheet of my electricity usage and
cost in the same house for the last 21 years.
I replaced the original central AC & heating in 1995, it was 14 years old.
I am still using that replacement central AC & heating system 15 years
later. From 1988 till 2003 my average monthly usage has been from 1214 Kwh
to 1456 Kwh. The graph goes up and down, up and down.
Beginning in 2004 my average usage has almost gone flat. 1347 in 2004,
1348 in 2005, 1335 in 2006, 1334 in 2007, 1184 in 2008. and so far in 2009
with one month to go 1297. The big drop in 2008 was because we lost
electricity for 11 days because of Hurricane Ike.
I replaced my electric water heater early in 2004. Looking at the
efficiency label on the old water heater and comparing to the new $300 water
heater installed by me, I determined that it would pay for itself in less
than 2 years. I have saved about 1300 Kwh per year since. Electricity has
cost me approximately 13 cents per Kwh on average. I have been saving about
$169 per year since 2003 after replacing the water heater. Including the
cost of the new water heater I have saved $700 in electricity over the last
6 years.
Leon
> Leon wrote:
Snip
>>
>> I bought the VW's on their past reputation.
>
> The "Volkswagen", the original design, is what I was talking about. Not
> the price point engineered models they started making to woo and placate
> the American consumer with the junk they prefer.
Exactly!
notbob
> Many years ago I had a Fiat 124 Spyder. I called it the Fiat 124
> Lemon. I did buy it used so perhaps it was just maintained terribly,
> but almost every other week something went wrong. The alternator died,
> the string operating the clutch broke, the transmission developed
> problems, and just endless crap.
>
> I guess it just depends on when it got put together.
Yes, the Italians make Ferraris and $80K shotguns, etc. They also
make Fiats. You want the real survivability lowdown on Fiat. I'm
from sunny CA where cars NEVER RUST!. If it's worth a damn, it will
last forever. In the early 70s, after I got out of the service, CA
roads were lousy with Fiats 850s and 124s. It was a craze and ppl
bought them by the ship load. They were as common as VW bugs. Thirty
years later, they are rarer than an honest politician. In fact, in
the last 5 yrs I spent commuting 70 miles a day on SFBA freeways, I
was stunned to see a single running 850 Spyder, it having been so long
since seeing one, I'd actually forgotten they'd ever existed. Pre-70
Borgwards are more common. If Fiat reliability is any indication of
European quality engineering, Chrysler is screwed!
nb
notbob
> What nonsense? ... you can't be that dense, eh? Shit happens in every
> country, culture, civilization - past, present, and future.
Well, duh! That was pretty much my point.
nb
J. Clarke
Navy talk for "refrigerator".
J. Clarke
I used to have an X1/9. Lovely little car, only repair I ever needed to
make on it other than routine maintenance was the thermostat. I'd likely
still be driving it if some asshole hadn't stolen it. Not at all like my
one Toyota, that had a single scheduled maintenance item--at 10,000 miles
replace engine.
notbob
> Your reefer may be in the same mode.
But, is paying $800 for a more efficient ....read energy conserving,
not colder.... gonna save you any money? Not likely before it dies
and you need to spend another $800 another new one.
nb
notbob
> Didn't they all come here to Alabamastan to work on them dang rockets?
Heh heh.... and I doubt there were too many folks named Homer Hickam
defecting to the US from the Nazi rocket program.
nb
HeyBub
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:12:26 -0500, "nor...@earthlink.net"
> <nor...@earthlink.net> wrote Re Re: Rethinking "Made in China":
>
>>> I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece
>>> of shit: what do you expect? It's made in China!".
>
> expect the same result from China.
>
> They are on the way up, and we are on the way down.
Nope. They do what they do best; we do what we do best. Then we trade.
Everybody gains.
So what do we do best?
1. Grow stuff
2. Make movies
3. Design and build airplanes
4. Create software
5. Wage war
6. Other things
notbob
> thickheaded cavilers who continue to harp on the exceptions to show
> their asses and ignorance.
....as opposed to baseless dogma spewed by narrow minded twits who
refuse to see beyond personal prejudices.
nb
Smitty Two
"Leon" <lcb1...@swbell.dotnet> wrote:
> "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:ke2dnbrlbqHyobfW...@giganews.com...
> > Leon wrote:
> Snip
>
> >>
> >> I bought the VW's on their past reputation.
> >
> > The "Volkswagen", the original design, is what I was talking about. Not
> > the price point engineered models they started making to woo and placate
> > the American consumer with the junk they prefer.
>
> Exactly!
>
>
The original VW bug was inexpensive to buy, and relatively inexpensive
to repair. That is hardly the same as being reliable.
notbob
> Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
> known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit
> the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
Complete and total bullshit! As a mechanic who has owned more than
one VW, don't even bother with trying to convince me of VW's
reliability. A good practical design (bug) yes. Reliable? Please.
My first bug, the engine trashed itself at a mere 45mph. The brakes
locked up by themselves. I had a diesel Rabbit that almost did a
Blues Brother's disintergration right before my eyes ....and suffered
the exact same brake lock-up, I might add. I was driving a 1950 Chevy
pickup long after my VWs were consigned to the trash heap.
> Sheessh, it's sad, this total failure of the educational system and the
> resultant ignorance!
Not as sad as your total failure at exercising common sense.
nb
notbob
> Reliability was NOT my experience with a diesel Rabbit.
They had great seat, though! ;)
nb
J. Clarke
> "Swingman" <k...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:paKdndhEwNEPM7TW...@giganews.com...
>>
>> Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
>> known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history,
>> hit the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".
>
> I will have to disagree with you there. Kim and I bought a new 99
> Jetta, it left her stranded on the freeway 3 times under warranty the
> first 18 months, and a dead battery replaced under warranty. That
> was the Mexico built vehicle. Towed into the dealership and "no
> problem found " on the 3 rd time we immediately traded for a German
> built 2000 Passat. We almost kept it 4 years. While we had it, it
> left Kim stranded 2 times, once was a faulty starter relay, the
> second time another dead battery replaced by me. Then there were
> numerous emissions problems, the need to replace both outer tie rod
> ends at 30K, and the heater core at 43K. The transmission was
> showing signs of failure. Traded for the 04 Accord at 47K. Both
> vehicles were serviced more often than recommended by the dealer.
> The 99 Jetta and 2000 Passat were serviced/oil changed at 3K VW
> recommended every 10K. After trading the Passat we got a factory
> letter rewording service intervals for the turbo, every 3K and with
> synthetic oil. I saw that coming.
>
> I bought the VW's on their past reputation.
>
> Maybe my first VW's were a fluke but I'll probably never buy another.
You folks who are going on about "Rabbits" and "Jettas" and suchlike are
missing the point.
THE Volkswagen, the Type I, aka the Beetle, aka the Porsche Type 60, was in
continuous production for over 60 years with more than 20 million built,
both the longest and largest production runs in automotive history.
>> Sheessh, it's sad, this total failure of the educational system and
>> the resultant ignorance!
>
> Totally agree with that and I attribute the failure to poor teachers
> that don't give a shit and that finally led to teachers that could
> not find a job any where else. Long ago when teachers could step in
> as a parent and administer discipline he or she could actually teach.
> We have lost teachers that actually taught for baby sitters.
Uh, you might want to actually get drunk with a few teachers sometime before
you blame them. They have to do what they can with what they've got and
what they've got these days isn't much (and I'm not talking about the kids,
I'm talking about the rules they are required to work under). Wanna fix
education, first shoot all the professors of education and all the school
boards.