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Here's the Line, I Dare You To Cross It

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kes

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Sep 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/10/97
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In article <341807...@idt.net>, p...@idt.net wrote:

<snip>
> No. If the ONLY thing you consider in another person is ONLY their
> "Usenet life," then that's pretty damn sorry. These are just words on a
> fucking screen. What I do here is similar to what I do outside of this
> little cybernetic "hell," as you call it, and therefore plays as MUCH of
> a role in what I post. That was his *point*.
>
Thats ok. But people here are judged by what they put on the screen. Not
whether they wear black every day of the week, or work in a corporate job,
or are the fucking president. Usenet is as close as you can come to being
judged truly for the state of your mind, and not for any petty outside
influences. I don't care what the hell you've been through, I care where
you are now.

<snip>
> So don't read those "regulars" that you don't like. THEY have their
> friends, and THEY like what they say to eachother and that gives them
> just as much right as you to post here. Do you but into every
> conversation when you walk in a coffeehouse? No, I don't think so. Who
> was it that attributed alt.gothic to an online coffee house? I don't
> remember, but I see the analogy. Oh wait...you completely forget about
> the real world when you come on here, don't you?
> <snip>
> And then we'll tell you to SHUT UP just as harder, because we're having
> a fucking conversation. You go have yours. So long as we follow
> netiquite <sp?>, quote properly, lay off the HTML and binaries...then we
> have as much right to have a conversation as you do. I'm not going to
> slump over to you and say, "Gee, Andru sir, is it alright if we discuss
> THIS topic now?"
>
Ah. I am finally understanding the problem. No. You are wrong. Alt.gothic
is _not_ a coffee house, you are _not_ having a conversation. This is a
delusion. If thats what you want, you need to take it to email, or learn
to use something calles I-R-C. let me repeat that -irc. That way all of
the rest of us don't have to _listen_ too your fucking "conversation" so
we can find something worth listening to. Newsgroups are more like...
like a community newspaper. produced very very frequently.
Also, if you are off topic, you aren't following nettiquete. And I am
personally of the opinion that fluff is offtopic. (whereas flaming isn't.
_especially_ on alt.gothic.)

My three or four cents,

kes

--
And we walk the proud walk
And we see the fine sights
And we bleed in our drinks
And we fight and we fight...

kes

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Sep 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/10/97
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> Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>
> <stuff snipped>

Hi. I'm here for the war. Where do I sign up?


In article <3417F7...@ix.netcom.com>, sch...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>snip<
> seen it a million times, usually by someone who the goes on to do
> nothing to add any new blood to the group.
>
Charlotte is cool. She's funny. She's intelligent. She's entertaining to
read. Therefore when she says something I listen. But thats just me.

> Everything built is more then just the big parts you can see and easily
> touch, there are alot of little parts holding it all together. for
> every stone you need some mortar.
>
Yeah, but do you need so damn _much_ of it?

<more snipping>
> ummm, how about basic civility?
>
I think what people are saying, and have been saying for the last couple
weeks now, is that they are approaching the limits of their basic
civility, which has never been big on alt.gothic anyway. People here
speak their minds, and they are getting fed up with you. So knock it the
hell off already.

Look, I lurk here. Post every once in a while, but not much. Only when I
have something that _has_ to be said, that I think is reasonably
intelligent, possibly funny, possibly serious, that other people would
enjoy reading. So it bothers me that when I go to alt.gothic looking for
something that is entertaining and intelligent I AM NO LONGER FINDING
MUCH! I am finding hundreds and hundreds of messages that don't belong
here, that hold nothing of interest for me. And I waste my time. And
other people also waste their money, downloading all of it. There's a lot
of people here talking about themselves, and I've got news for you - no
one is liiistening.

Charlotte Ashley

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Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to


'kay, here's the thing:

right now I'm teetering between really pissed of and really genuinely
frightened. I don't like either feeling. it's unsettling, I want to go
to sleep. I hae to work at 7 am, for christ's sake. I'm generally
annoyed that I should have to be worrying about this at all.

There's this sorta tension on alt.gothic, and f you didn't notice, raise
your hand *right now* and I'll send the Large Men to kill you as soon as
possible. We have something of a bittergoff-perkygoff rift.

Big Rift.

Getting Bigger Rift.

I sorta hoped it would progress into a delightful lot of squashing,
flaming and beating, with bitter old heros coming to reclaim sacred
ground. Uh, I'm not getting lucky on this one.

Instead, the bitter old heros are getting disgusted and are leaving.
Going away. Not promising to be back.

I can't decide if this scares me or pisses me off.

So I have two big things to say:

1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise
when a thread as run dry. Learn not to post one liners unless they are
actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the
fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor
thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I don't
care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30 msgs of it.


2) to those of you of the old, grizzled, intellectual nature, post shit.
Post lots and lots and lots, and at least try to balance out all that
goddamn fluff. Don't leave and give up, make your own fun. And flame.
As far as I'm concerned at this poitn in time, gratuitous fluff is now on
my to-die list. I don't care if it isn't technically "trolling", as far
as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never posted a goddamn thing
to earn flame retardant clothing.


It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.
Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I
adore some of the perkygoffs in this group. They've proven to me that
they have something under the *bounce*ing.


Some of you have managed, and I don't know how, to make regular status
without ever posing a thing that contributed to the building of this
group. I AM A PRETENTIOUS FUCK and I don't think just being "nice" is a
good enough reason to be left unbaked. This is, unfortunately, a warning.
I may not be a very good flamer, but I can loose some pretty good venom
when I need to. unless someone can give me a damn good reason why I
shouldn't, I'm going to start tearing apart people who post useless,
insubstantial fluff effective immediately.


If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
snub people like you in everyday life. I've been forgiving you here
because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it. You've
been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.


charlotte

--
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bi284

Life is one big ink blot.

Andrew L. Garman

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Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

And so we have the Manifesto for alt.gothic.JIHAD...
and the battle cry is heard...who shall burn first?

Charlotte Ashley wrote:
| Instead, the bitter old heros are getting disgusted and are leaving.
| Going away. Not promising to be back.

Abandonment sucks...hold your ground and fucking destroy the
halfwit gigglekids...send the foul wretches back to alt.teen-talk...
unite and make alt.gothic into the bitter, hostile and fervantly
passionate place it once was...

| If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
| snub people like you in everyday life. I've been forgiving you here
| because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it.

It'd be nice if everyone had a killfile that automatically
killed off...these stupid little insubstancial shits...ack, never has
twilight managed to merit any of my disgust, though she *b*unce*s
most of the time...(and hasn't ever responded to my poems!)...ack...
there isn't a perkigoth-bittergoth rift...I'm a fucking PERKYGOFF, ask
anyone who knows me...sardonic but perky is the best description...

But damn how I wish for a d*ck game where everytime the perky
and slackbrained people bounce...everyone shoots them down...is a 30-06
a good gun for gerbils?

| You've
| been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
| that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
| the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.

I'm wishing I'd just killfiled everyone like I used to...but
then you'd post this and I'd say "huh?" Not to conducive to a community
understanding....


andru, alt.gothic is a fire and brimstone sorta place...
because hell is sooooo gothic....

Urisk

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Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

(bi...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) Charlotte Ashley enlightened us with:

>
> There's this sorta tension on alt.gothic, and f you didn't notice, raise
> your hand *right now* and I'll send the Large Men to kill you as soon as
> possible. We have something of a bittergoff-perkygoff rift.

Actually I don't really see it, but then again I've been skipping most of
the posts here lately... I'd actually like to see the rift get bigger. It
disturbs me to see the bitter/mopey goths blend right in with the
perkyfluffs...

> 1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise
> when a thread as run dry. Learn not to post one liners unless they are
> actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the
> fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor
> thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I don't
> care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30 msgs of it.

Amen...

> 2) to those of you of the old, grizzled, intellectual nature, post shit.
> Post lots and lots and lots, and at least try to balance out all that
> goddamn fluff. Don't leave and give up, make your own fun. And flame.
> As far as I'm concerned at this poitn in time, gratuitous fluff is now on
> my to-die list. I don't care if it isn't technically "trolling", as far
> as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never posted a goddamn thing
> to earn flame retardant clothing.

Sorry. But I think those of us who like to post quality over quantity have a
hard time doing both... It comes in waves for me, though, I think...

> It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.
> Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
> put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I
> adore some of the perkygoffs in this group. They've proven to me that
> they have something under the *bounce*ing.

I don't care if you've "earned" it. It still annoys me. I judge a message on
it's content, not who posted it...

> If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it.

I hope I'm not the 1% you've got left. I may not entirely agree with the
delivery (a bit heavy on posturing+rambling) but I do agree with the
sentiment...

--
~^v^~ ::: Urisk ::: ~^v^~
~^v^~< MailTo:jab...@vgernet.net >~^v^~
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/4997/

Tom S.

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Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Charlotte Ashley wrote:

<stuff snipped>

> 1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise


> when a thread as run dry. Learn not to post one liners unless they are
> actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the
> fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor
> thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I don't
> care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30 msgs of it.

What use is a dead horse if you can't whip it a little?

> 2) to those of you of the old, grizzled, intellectual nature, post shit.
> Post lots and lots and lots, and at least try to balance out all that
> goddamn fluff. Don't leave and give up, make your own fun. And flame.
> As far as I'm concerned at this poitn in time, gratuitous fluff is now on
> my to-die list. I don't care if it isn't technically "trolling", as far
> as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never posted a goddamn thing
> to earn flame retardant clothing.

This is just the standard 'this group is going to hell in a handbasket'
paragraph.


seen it a million times, usually by someone who the goes on to do
nothing to add any new blood to the group.

> It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.
> Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
> put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I
> adore some of the perkygoffs in this group. They've proven to me that
> they have something under the *bounce*ing.

Teses people have lives off the net, many of them probably earned their
perkiness out there, in the real world. Some may have been born perky,
some may have treked so far through the the dark forest of bitterness
that they finaly have broken through to the dandelion filled fields of
maddness.



> Some of you have managed, and I don't know how, to make regular status
> without ever posing a thing that contributed to the building of this
> group.

Everything built is more then just the big parts you can see and easily


touch, there are alot of little parts holding it all together. for
every stone you need some mortar.

> I AM A PRETENTIOUS FUCK and I don't think just being "nice" is a


> good enough reason to be left unbaked.

I think most people here know that if you are willing to post you take
the chance someone won;t like it and on rare occasions REALLY let you
know how much they didn't like it.

> This is, unfortunately, a warning.
> I may not be a very good flamer, but I can loose some pretty good venom
> when I need to.

Practice makes perfect.

> unless someone can give me a damn good reason why I
> shouldn't, I'm going to start tearing apart people who post useless,
> insubstantial fluff effective immediately.

ummm, how about basic civility?


> If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
> snub people like you in everyday life. I've been forgiving you here

> because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it. You've


> been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
> that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
> the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.

If you really want a group that has no fluff at all try out
alt.discordia ;)

Pope Tom S. of the C.o.G.
etc...

Andrew L. Garman

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Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Tom S. wrote:


Leanan wrote:
| > my to-die list. I don't care if it isn't technically "trolling", as far
| > as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never posted a goddamn thing
| > to earn flame retardant clothing.

| This is just the standard 'this group is going to hell in a handbasket'
| paragraph.

The group isn't going to hell...it's there...big, big difference...
pointing out a decadence and doomsaying...

| seen it a million times, usually by someone who the goes on to do
| nothing to add any new blood to the group.

Of all the people on this group...Charlotte is amongst those who've
done their damnedest to fill it with substance and still maintain a bit
of decorum...that all she's done, and ablatross and lk and xthlic and
others can be passed over by some sorry ass commentary about not "adding
new blood" disgusts me...

| > It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.
| > Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
| > put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I
| > adore some of the perkygoffs in this group. They've proven to me that
| > they have something under the *bounce*ing.

| Teses people have lives off the net, many of them probably earned their
| perkiness out there, in the real world.

This isn't the real world and their real world achievements
won't blow over for snot here...if your comporte is that of a simple
minded and trivial person...by hellfire, you should be treated no
better for it...do *you* understand the point?

| Some may have been born perky,
| some may have treked so far through the the dark forest of bitterness
| that they finaly have broken through to the dandelion filled fields of
| maddness.

The problem isn't that they are perky...there *is* no depth...
As much as I think your offbase, that you are just posting here to seek
abuse, and that your rationality is flawed...you manage quite well not
to fall into the cardboard cutout people drawer that so much of alt.gothic
is in right now...you're not flat...just horribly deluded...

| > Some of you have managed, and I don't know how, to make regular status
| > without ever posing a thing that contributed to the building of this
| > group.

| Everything built is more then just the big parts you can see and easily
| touch, there are alot of little parts holding it all together. for
| every stone you need some mortar.

You're analogy sucks...little parts don't relegate us to an
acceptance of little people...ever little part doesn't add and a mortar
filled with wax will not keep a building standing too long...

So before criticizing proper building techniques...think over
what your saying...I'd rather the horsehair and dung of trolls and
spammers to the wax and crayons of some "regulars" (in quotes because
they just post a lot and nothing much capable of withstanding a warm
breeze)...

| > I AM A PRETENTIOUS FUCK and I don't think just being "nice" is a
| > good enough reason to be left unbaked.

| I think most people here know that if you are willing to post you take
| the chance someone won;t like it and on rare occasions REALLY let you
| know how much they didn't like it.

Don't hold back...! Let me know...!

| Practice makes perfect.

Some require more than practice to not sound like some
boisterous fatheaded father-figure...

| > unless someone can give me a damn good reason why I
| > shouldn't, I'm going to start tearing apart people who post useless,
| > insubstantial fluff effective immediately.

| ummm, how about basic civility?

To what ends...yes come in fill my computer with tripe...I'll
be nice to you...fuck that...if you don't have anything I want to hear
and make it a habit of saying it...SHUT UP...will eventually be spat
into your face...

"I don't blame you that I don't want to be your friend"

But don't push the issue, don't deceptively think the words
passing us are unwelcome and if too frequent, down right bothersome...
UNDERSTOOD?

| > If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
| > snub people like you in everyday life. I've been forgiving you here
| > because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it. You've
| > been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
| > that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
| > the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.

| If you really want a group that has no fluff at all try out
| alt.discordia ;)

I agree...but I'd rather just have alt.gothic back to where it
was a year ago...with a few added benefits (like squirrelboi)...

| Pope Tom S. of the C.o.G.
| etc...

No offense intended by all this, just trying to clarify here...

andru, and dearly so

Marcus Pan

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Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>
> 'kay, here's the thing:

A'right. G'head.



> right now I'm teetering between really pissed of and really genuinely
> frightened. I don't like either feeling. it's unsettling, I want to go
> to sleep. I hae to work at 7 am, for christ's sake. I'm generally
> annoyed that I should have to be worrying about this at all.

Maybe you should try sleeping. YOu've been rather pissy for the past
week or so, which is fine, but it's just not normally "you."



> There's this sorta tension on alt.gothic, and f you didn't notice, raise
> your hand *right now* and I'll send the Large Men to kill you as soon as
> possible. We have something of a bittergoff-perkygoff rift.

Tension? Yeah' I've noticed it. Two camps are forming. But I don't
think it's a warlike rift. Except for a few people, like yourself and
andru, most aren't exatly flipping on the fluff.

> Big Rift.

Rift, yes, warlike no; I say again.



> I sorta hoped it would progress into a delightful lot of squashing,
> flaming and beating, with bitter old heros coming to reclaim sacred
> ground. Uh, I'm not getting lucky on this one.

So you mean to tell me that's it's badBADbad for a good thread to
degenerate into fluff, but it is goodGOODgood for a good thread to
degenerate (yes, FUCKING DEGENERATE, not get better) into a bunch of
petty insults over stupid shit? I don't see much difference between the
two, except for their motives...fluff being designed to get laughs,
flames being designed to get anger. That's all...but it's ok for you
guys to come flaming halfway across any thread you like, right, but I
can't say, "Hey, anyone else have Starship?"



> Instead, the bitter old heros are getting disgusted and are leaving.
> Going away. Not promising to be back.

So they give up. If they give up that easy, maybe they're not really
"old heros" then.



> I can't decide if this scares me or pisses me off.

It pisses you off. You said so yourself.



> So I have two big things to say:
>

> 1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise
> when a thread as run dry. Learn not to post one liners unless they are
> actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the
> fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor
> thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I don't
> care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30 msgs of it.

I want the terms "absent-brained perky nature" re-explained. Does
absent-brainedness begot perkiness? Hrm? And how would you know what's
funny, m'dear? In your state of mind, you're sense of humor has gone
south for the winter.

And if you look at the "CD collection" thread...really LOOK at it, don't
just mark it this time...maybe you'll see that there are more than a
half dozen people involved in the conversation. And I intend on
continuing it until such time as there aren't any people left on the
thread. It's still a discussion. Just because it's a discussion YOU
don't like, does NOT mean it's a bad discussion.

> 2) to those of you of the old, grizzled, intellectual nature, post shit.
> Post lots and lots and lots, and at least try to balance out all that
> goddamn fluff. Don't leave and give up, make your own fun. And flame.
> As far as I'm concerned at this poitn in time, gratuitous fluff is now on

> my to-die list. I don't care if it isn't technically "trolling", as far
> as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never posted a goddamn thing
> to earn flame retardant clothing.

Oh is it? Well I don't intend on changing. I intend on posting an NGD
update, then maybe posting a journal entry, then advising a question,
THEN POSTING SOME FUCKING FLUFF. Feel free to flame whatever you like.
Hell, maybe it will make you feel better and get rid of all your current
pissiness. And >I< think I posted enough to earn some flame-retardant
underwear. And >others< think that. And, frankly, if >you< don't, I
honestly don't give a shit at this point.



> It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.
> Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
> put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I
> adore some of the perkygoffs in this group. They've proven to me that
> they have something under the *bounce*ing.

Earn by who's standards? The Dark Lord's? Marquid de Sade? The "old
bitter heros?" Who decides when I can bounce? >I< do.



> Some of you have managed, and I don't know how, to make regular status
> without ever posing a thing that contributed to the building of this

> group. I AM A PRETENTIOUS FUCK and I don't think just being "nice" is a
> good enough reason to be left unbaked. This is, unfortunately, a warning.


> I may not be a very good flamer, but I can loose some pretty good venom

> when I need to. unless someone can give me a damn good reason why I


> shouldn't, I'm going to start tearing apart people who post useless,
> insubstantial fluff effective immediately.

I've done one of two things with this. I've either refired you and will
expect to be flamed, OR maybe you'll at least listen to what I have to
say and maybe simmer down a bit. Maybe flame those that deserve it and
stop bitching about CD conversations that multiple people are enjoying.
That's my damn good reason. Take it or leave it...no matter.

> If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
> snub people like you in everyday life. I've been forgiving you here
> because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it. You've
> been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
> that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
> the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.

I'm not pissed (alright...maybe a little)...I'm stating my side. I
don't agree wholeheartedly with your side, chances are you won't agree
100% with mine...which is what it's all about after all, isn't it? And
I'm going to GIGGLE my ass off if I feel like it. Then I'll pick it up
and go home. I'm not going to leave the newsgroup, or post less, or
start checking that I use intellectual fucking vocabulary before
clicking SEND...fuck that. I'm in some good conversations, some fluffy,
some religious, some about this or that and the other thing. And I'm
not about to start changing the way I post because of things like this.
I do NOT waste bandwidth with what I say...others show interest. And
NOR do I troll, as is quite fucking obvious. That's what's under
it...THAT'S my substance. You want a different substance? Fine.

Pan - Fluff THIS!
--
-----=====>Papa-PAN<=====----- I *heart* Cymbeline!
Adopter of lost BabyGoths everywhere... I *heart* Asafoetida!
----------------------- I *heart* Hillary!
The Pan Pages - http://www.zenweb.com/pan I *heart* Niles!
Legends Online - http://www.zenweb.com/legends I *heart* Narnia!
Surreal RAYn - http://www.zenweb.com/rayn I *heart* Leanan!
I *heart* OrchydNoir!

The Lighthouse Keeper

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Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>
> 'kay, here's the thing:
>
> right now I'm teetering between really pissed of and really genuinely
> frightened. I don't like either feeling. it's unsettling, I want to go
> to sleep. I hae to work at 7 am, for christ's sake. I'm generally
> annoyed that I should have to be worrying about this at all.
>
> There's this sorta tension on alt.gothic, and f you didn't notice, raise
> your hand *right now* and I'll send the Large Men to kill you as soon as
> possible. We have something of a bittergoff-perkygoff rift.

Then there are those of us who are the "In-betweeners." Trust me,
though... we don't like it anymore than you do.



> I sorta hoped it would progress into a delightful lot of squashing,
> flaming and beating, with bitter old heros coming to reclaim sacred
> ground. Uh, I'm not getting lucky on this one.

> Instead, the bitter old heros are getting disgusted and are leaving.


> Going away. Not promising to be back.

Or just lurking. Some are just waiting. One of those "If you ignore
them, they'll go away." things I guess.



> I can't decide if this scares me or pisses me off.

It should probably evoke a little of both.

> 1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise when a thread as run dry. Learn not to post one liners unless they are actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I don't care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30 msgs of it.

Brava.

Couldn't have said it better m'self and I'm SO GLAD I wasn't the only
one stewing over this SAME EXACT topic.

I'm not saying that EVERY post has to be brooding and serious... or that
every post has to be entertaining and witty... BUT FOR CHRIST'S SAKE can
they AT LEAST make sense to SOME extent?

And if you're going to post a joke... please... make it a funny one?

And if you're running an inside joke with someone... please... can you
not bore the rest of us with it?

It's a courtesy thing I guess.

I'll go out on a limb and state for the record that over the past week
I've labeled over TWO THIRDS of the posts in this newsgroup sheer
garbage.

It USED to be fun... but lately it's just silly. But that's just me.

> 2) to those of you of the old, grizzled, intellectual nature, post shit. Post lots and lots and lots, and at least try to balance out all >that goddamn fluff. Don't leave and give up, make your own fun. And >flame. As far as I'm concerned at this poitn in time, gratuitous fluff >is now on my to-die list. I don't care if it isn't technically >"trolling", as far as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never >posted a goddamn thing to earn flame retardant clothing.

Damn. Now see... I'VE posted "fluff" before. I guess I'm just as
guilty as the next cat.

However... I CAN confess with a clear concience that the "pretty cool"
stuff outweighs the "fluff." At least I hope it has. <shrug>



> It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.
> Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
> put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I
> adore some of the perkygoffs in this group. They've proven to me that
> they have something under the *bounce*ing.

Usually fleas. ;)



> Some of you have managed, and I don't know how, to make regular status
> without ever posing a thing that contributed to the building of this
> group. I AM A PRETENTIOUS FUCK and I don't think just being "nice" is a
> good enough reason to be left unbaked. This is, unfortunately, a warning.
> I may not be a very good flamer, but I can loose some pretty good venom
> when I need to. unless someone can give me a damn good reason why I
> shouldn't, I'm going to start tearing apart people who post useless,
> insubstantial fluff effective immediately.

(The Lighthouse Keeper unsheathes a long, black-bladed dagger and hands
it to Charlotte...)

Here.

Remember to TWIST it once it's thrust in.



> If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
> snub people like you in everyday life. I've been forgiving you here
> because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it.

THIS IS THE GREATEST LIE OF OUR SUBCULTURE!!!

Goths are HUMANS.

Humans suck as a rule.

I have personally and recently (within the last two weeks) become to
contemptuous of MY OWN local gathering of "friends" that I would much
rather kill them, skin them, and turn their skeletons into windchimes
than to look at them.

DON'T EVER give ANY human the benefit of the doubt. Ever.

Blind faith in ANYTHING will GET YOU KILLED.

Or worse... break your heart.

You've
> been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
> that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
> the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.

I've always liked you, Charlotte.

I always will.

I feel like you do, and you know where to find me if you need fuel for
your flamethrower.

Fear & Bullets,
The Lighthouse Keeper
gobli...@rocketmail.com

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Andrew L. Garman wrote:
> The group isn't going to hell...it's there...big, big difference...
> pointing out a decadence and doomsaying...

Maybe by your standards...I think the group is doing just fine.



> Of all the people on this group...Charlotte is amongst those who've
> done their damnedest to fill it with substance and still maintain a bit
> of decorum...that all she's done, and ablatross and lk and xthlic and
> others can be passed over by some sorry ass commentary about not "adding
> new blood" disgusts me...

Why the hell would you want "new blood?" Aren't you one of the ones
lamenting that the group sucks now BECAUSE of the "new blood?"



> This isn't the real world and their real world achievements
> won't blow over for snot here...if your comporte is that of a simple
> minded and trivial person...by hellfire, you should be treated no
> better for it...do *you* understand the point?

No. If the ONLY thing you consider in another person is ONLY their


"Usenet life," then that's pretty damn sorry. These are just words on a
fucking screen. What I do here is similar to what I do outside of this
little cybernetic "hell," as you call it, and therefore plays as MUCH of
a role in what I post. That was his *point*.

> So before criticizing proper building techniques...think over
> what your saying...I'd rather the horsehair and dung of trolls and
> spammers to the wax and crayons of some "regulars" (in quotes because
> they just post a lot and nothing much capable of withstanding a warm
> breeze)...

So don't read those "regulars" that you don't like. THEY have their


friends, and THEY like what they say to eachother and that gives them
just as much right as you to post here. Do you but into every
conversation when you walk in a coffeehouse? No, I don't think so. Who
was it that attributed alt.gothic to an online coffee house? I don't
remember, but I see the analogy. Oh wait...you completely forget about
the real world when you come on here, don't you?

> Don't hold back...! Let me know...!

I am. :P



> Some require more than practice to not sound like some
> boisterous fatheaded father-figure...

Is that a hit on me by any chance? I'm just curious...with my PapaPan
.sig and all it honestly sounds like a direct hit on me. Sorry if it's
not...maybe I'm just pissy (could you tell?).



> To what ends...yes come in fill my computer with tripe...I'll
> be nice to you...fuck that...if you don't have anything I want to hear
> and make it a habit of saying it...SHUT UP...will eventually be spat
> into your face...

And then we'll tell you to SHUT UP just as harder, because we're having


a fucking conversation. You go have yours. So long as we follow
netiquite <sp?>, quote properly, lay off the HTML and binaries...then we
have as much right to have a conversation as you do. I'm not going to
slump over to you and say, "Gee, Andru sir, is it alright if we discuss
THIS topic now?"

> "I don't blame you that I don't want to be your friend"

I don't get where the quote fits in.



> I agree...but I'd rather just have alt.gothic back to where it
> was a year ago...with a few added benefits (like squirrelboi)...

But yet you can bitch about bringing in "new blood." That doesn't make
sense.



> No offense intended by all this, just trying to clarify here...

Yeah, sure.

SPAM.hotmail.com

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Personally, I haven't seen a rift betwen perky/mopeys. But then, I
pass by the fluff, sooo...I generally don't follow a thread that is
somewhat fluffy, and miss out on the flaming. I don't think that
having alot of fluff is a bad thing. I mean you could turn around and
say "I'm tried of people being pissed off and bitter, I want to see
more lighthearted fare to balance it out" I think pretty much everyone
in this group has worth. And what they say is important to me on some
level. Granted, I get tired of "Pan you are damn cute" and "aw shucks,
your cute!" "no you are!" etc...but hey, I skip the thread. If so and
so wants to say Pan is a cute perky goth, so be it. But hell, as much
as i flame and am bitter as fuck <sorry guys, I've just been in one
hell of a flaming mood recently> *I* would like alot of the senseless
flaiming <that I am guilty of contributing to, also> to stop. Or at
least calm down a bit. This group wouldn't be so much fun without the
flames.
But i really hope this rift thing is imagined or maybe excelerated
cause Charlotte is involved in it personally, because i would really
really hate to see alt.gothic.perky and alt.gothic.mopey. And gawd
knows the flame wars would get nasty if that ever happened.

Greycat
____________________________________________________________________________
(Remove NO SPAM before responding)

"Black as midnight, black as pitch, blacker than the foulest witch!"


Andrew L. Garman

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Lady Greycat wrote:
| But i really hope this rift thing is imagined or maybe excelerated
| cause Charlotte is involved in it personally, because i would really
| really hate to see alt.gothic.perky and alt.gothic.mopey. And gawd
| knows the flame wars would get nasty if that ever happened.

It isn't perky v. mopey, it's trite v. depth...etc...
the #1 reason people with local goth listservs don't
read alt.gothic is because of the trite...

admittedly, I've heard some complain of the "deepness"
as #2...I usher that over to the alt.gothic.politics
people...oh, well...

and no I don't want a rift...though I doubt the flame
wars would go very far as only one side is armed...and
the other does have sympathizers...and no this ...I'm
done!

andru, ...so for that...

Albatross

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Lady Greycat wrote:

> But i really hope this rift thing is imagined or maybe excelerated
> cause Charlotte is involved in it personally, because i would really
> really hate to see alt.gothic.perky and alt.gothic.mopey. And gawd
> knows the flame wars would get nasty if that ever happened.


Its not as simple as a rift between perky and mopey.
The rift is between people who have been here a while, and made a sort
of personal commitment to the group based on the quality of experience
they got here, and seeming wave after wave of conversation that is
absolutely needless in this sort of forum.

It isnt a matter of simply skipping it. It is a matter of magnitude. It
isnt a few silly, pointless posts here and there. It is like wading
through a swamp of this stuff. Every time a persons name appears here,
he is contributing to the over-all feel of the group.

If I had his permission, I'd like to go back and quote Ron Carriers
next to last post to this group. It seems pretty damn prophetic in
retrospect.


Albatross

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Andrew L. Garman wrote:

> It isn't perky v. mopey, it's trite v. depth...etc...
> the #1 reason people with local goth listservs don't
> read alt.gothic is because of the trite...

Just becase you may not have an interest in some of what you call "trite
does NOT mean it's trite or lacking to others. Go drown in your depth
if that's what you want. But don't assume because you don't want it
here it don't belong here.



> and no I don't want a rift...though I doubt the flame
> wars would go very far as only one side is armed...and
> the other does have sympathizers...and no this ...I'm
> done!

One side is armed? How do you figure?

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Lady Greycat wrote:
> level. Granted, I get tired of "Pan you are damn cute" and "aw shucks,
> your cute!" "no you are!" etc...but hey, I skip the thread. If so and
> so wants to say Pan is a cute perky goth, so be it.

Why was I singled out here? <shrug> You got a point though, but it
looks like I'm the only fluff-poster around, which is entirely untrue.

> But i really hope this rift thing is imagined or maybe excelerated
> cause Charlotte is involved in it personally, because i would really
> really hate to see alt.gothic.perky and alt.gothic.mopey. And gawd
> knows the flame wars would get nasty if that ever happened.

I'm starting to believe that the separation may be a good thing...and I
feel terrible about it. I don't want it...but then again I don't want
to read andru saying "Well >I< have the so-and-so album" in one post and
then bitching that the same thread he put that in shouldn't BE there in
the first place. That's hypocritical. I'm going to be very sorry to
see this place turn into two camps...suddenly feel like I'm in a cyber
version of Lord of the Flies.

Albatross

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Marcus Pan wrote:
>
> Andrew L. Garman wrote:
> > The group isn't going to hell...it's there...big, big difference...
> > pointing out a decadence and doomsaying...
>
> Maybe by your standards...I think the group is doing just fine.


Sorry, but that says it all.
I think you have perhaps missed what exactly the point of this
newsgroup is, right from the start.

>
> Why the hell would you want "new blood?" Aren't you one of the ones
> lamenting that the group sucks now BECAUSE of the "new blood?"


The problem is in the bloodlessness of the new blood.

>
> So don't read those "regulars" that you don't like. THEY have their
> friends, and THEY like what they say to eachother and that gives them
> just as much right as you to post here. Do you but into every
> conversation when you walk in a coffeehouse? No, I don't think so. Who
> was it that attributed alt.gothic to an online coffee house? I don't
> remember, but I see the analogy. Oh wait...you completely forget about
> the real world when you come on here, don't you?


In a coffehouse, if someone is standing on a table sing songing all day
they will quite likely get their little ass thrown out of the
coffehouse. You have made yourself a presense on the group, Pan; (in
spite of Ren, who perhaps forsaw this) and you have a responsibility to
add something to the character of the group, more than what you have
done. If you were a person who was posting infrequently, who was
therefore easy to dismiss, then it would be a different story. You could
just be plonked or ignored, whatever. But, of the hunderd or so posts a
picked up last night, you are the author of over twenty of them!

There was a balance to this group between
fluff/substance...religious/science...one-liners/essays...etc. You and
your minions have flooded over that balance. Changing the character of
the group from one that was highly stimulating to one that is highly
annoying.

Here is my advice, which you are free to ignore; but it is good advice:
Post less. A usenet post is not a line like you would use in
conversation or on an IRC. The strength and nature of the medium is
determined by the fact that you can write deliberately. We arent doing
this in real time. It may appear to be conversation, at times, but if
you look closer you'll discover that this isnt the case. (I have noticed
that as my own posts became increasingly conversational, they were also
becoming increasingly mundane). I would much rather see four or five
posts a day from you, of whihc maybe one or two were something thought
out and written at length. I do not imagine that my telephone
conversations would provide enough _whatever_ to make a good Usenet
post. I know for certain that yours would not.

> And then we'll tell you to SHUT UP just as harder, because we're having
> a fucking conversation. You go have yours. So long as we follow
> netiquite <sp?>, quote properly, lay off the HTML and binaries...then we
> have as much right to have a conversation as you do. I'm not going to
> slump over to you and say, "Gee, Andru sir, is it alright if we discuss
> THIS topic now?"


And this is exactly what I'm talking about. We arent here having
conversations, in the sense that you're having conversations. Such
things belong on the telephone or on an IRC, but not on Usenet. In such
cases, you would be right to say that you're having a private
conversation and people should butt out. But there is nothing private
going on here. The fact that you post announces that you intend to be
heard publicly. Over six or seven posts a day is screaming out in
public, and you're often going well over that.


A

Bradley W Zimmerman

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to


Andrew L. Gar...@cis.ysu

> And so we have the Manifesto for alt.gothic.JIHAD...
> and the battle cry is heard...who shall burn first?

"2...5...0...0...0..."


let the games begin, motherfucker...


--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-THE RAPHRAT-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
rap...@CMU.EDU -=http://theratsnest.res.cmu.edu=-
PGH.NYC.industrial.goth.punk.artmajor.nihilist.wHATEver
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Editor-in-Chef: HAVEN magazine-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~xyd/3-dpub/haven.html

oddlystrange

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to


>Teses people have lives off the net, many of them probably earned their

>perkiness out there, in the real world. Some may have been born perky,


>some may have treked so far through the the dark forest of bitterness
>that they finaly have broken through to the dandelion filled fields of
>maddness.

a-fucking-men to that.

So far as this whole bitter/perky thing It's been goin on for at least 2
year, ever since the *original* definition of perkygoff got lost admit the
idea that you have to actually fit the description of *perky* to be a
perkygoff.

joel, i am a few other tried in vein to explain just what the fuck *he*
meant when he created the whole thing. It just didn't stick. I carry the
label in tribute to *those* perkygoffs. Not the current crop, who
admittedly are completely against the whole idea of it...

here's the original concept. We're not your average goths. We don't like
labels. We like the fact that we're one thing and other. We're walking
contradictions of the stereotype. This does not mean that we're awesomely
fucking happy. It just means that we do our own thing with little reguard
to the fact that it's "goth" or not.

IOW, we (actually joel) created a name that was supposed to be an
anti-label which at some point turned into a label in and of itself.

I accept that like many things the label has changed, and honestly I'm
happy to see that some of the traditional goth stereotypes are getting
stomped on or at least shown for their sillyness (which was the point
anyhow).

Perkygoff: Fuck you and your ideals. Fuck you and your pretentious pompous
ass ego. I am here because I *love* it not because it looks good to *love*
it. Thankyouverymuch.

*yawn*

oddlystrange

(who's defending no one, but her perkyass self)
--
oddlystrange*perkygoff fairy godmother*pe...@obscure.org
perkygoff east coast branch office now located at:
http://www.obscure.org/~perky
-<Microsoft&VHS: proof that Americans revel in mediocrity>-

Krista J. Tuzinkiewicz

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Marcus Pan (p...@idt.net) wrote:

: So you mean to tell me that's it's badBADbad for a good thread to


: degenerate into fluff, but it is goodGOODgood for a good thread to
: degenerate (yes, FUCKING DEGENERATE, not get better) into a bunch of
: petty insults over stupid shit? I don't see much difference between the
: two, except for their motives...fluff being designed to get laughs,
: flames being designed to get anger. That's all...but it's ok for you
: guys to come flaming halfway across any thread you like, right, but I
: can't say, "Hey, anyone else have Starship?"

Threads that degenerate into fluff and threads that degenerate into petty
mudslinging are the same in my book. They get old and boring *very*
quickly. I think the general 'take it to e-mail' response works for both
of them.

I *like* reading about what other people have in their cd collections,
it generally allows me some exposeur to new music and such, 'cause no
matter how many times I ask the DJ 90% of the time I foget the band's name
before I get home. But I do get tired of little one-liners that
basically say 'oh that's cool' or 'me too.' Same way I get tired of
hearing people insult one another. Flames can be fun to read, but when
they dwindle down into personal attacks *snore*.

There are flames of merit and there are flames that were better off left
unsent. Just the same as any other post. Its a matter of knowing the
difference *before* you hit that send button. Why do you think newbies
are told to wait awhile before posting? It isn't so they post a.g-PC
intro's...it so they learn what is acceptable posting and whats not. And
sure that is a hugely relative and opinionated thing, but those two
things are what has added 'spice'and energy to this group. Besides, it helps
keep down the personal ads ;)

Sure, you can tell me well 'just ignore what you don't like to read' or
'kill-file 'em if they annoy you.' I do both of these things...I think it
is just a sad state when that is 90% of the stuff that comes through here.

So I agree with Charlotte in the sense that a lot of people, including
myself, need to cut the apathy approach and reclaim the ng.

But enough of that 'cause my tummy is growling at me...

-Gwen

--
"Haven't you noticed the hands | Guinevere
of the passerby? | Krista J. Tuzinkiewicz
Not only the hands, | http://userwww.service.emory.edu/
but the person, | ~ktuzink/
and the object of your quest?" -Neruda

Krista J. Tuzinkiewicz

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to ktu...@emory.edu

The Lighthouse Keeper (shen...@sprintmail.com) wrote:
: Charlotte Ashley wrote:

: > If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and


: > snub people like you in everyday life. I've been forgiving you here
: > because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it.
:
: THIS IS THE GREATEST LIE OF OUR SUBCULTURE!!!
:
: Goths are HUMANS.
:
: Humans suck as a rule.

I have begun to take note of this myself, mostly in my own personality
and my actions.

(Can we say its september, I have my library-stacks job back and have way
too much time to brood and 'navel-gaze' as one friend puts it.)

I tend to act like a terrible perky when I wander out to clubs and such.

This is then generally balanced by my going home, sitting by myself in front
of my computer or reading my homework, etc etc brooding and generally in
a sarcastic, pessimistic mood.

Of late though I have begun wondering what the impression this perkiness
gives off, especially after a well-intention friend made a comment about
my personality that was meant to be a joke and not an attack. Even though
I know it was a joke it has sort of been eating away at me. It makes me
wonder if people actually really wonder if I do have more intelligent
thoughts behind that silly, perky *bounce*ing I do. I have begun to
realize that the majority of them don't see that behind all that there is
so much that drives me, so much I want to know and learn, you get the
point. For the most part though, lately I feel like I have come off more
as one of those mindless idiots I do so much complaining about.

In many ways it is my own fault, in many ways also I shouldn't care
'cause majority of the people there I probably wouldn't consider to be good
friends.

Actually, I probably should realy care what they all think anyway. I
think what bothers me most is that I have actually sat around and worried
about this, 'tis usually the one thing I don't worry about.

Why am I still babbling about this??

: I've always liked you, Charlotte.


:
: I always will.
:
: I feel like you do, and you know where to find me if you need fuel for
: your flamethrower.

For fear of actually saying it...

'me too' charlotte...

Tom S.

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

oddlystrange wrote:

<edited for content>

> here's the original concept. We're not your average goths. We don't like
> labels. We like the fact that we're one thing and other. We're walking
> contradictions of the stereotype. This does not mean that we're awesomely
> fucking happy. It just means that we do our own thing with little reguard
> to the fact that it's "goth" or not.

> Perkygoff: Fuck you and your ideals. Fuck you and your pretentious pompous


> ass ego. I am here because I *love* it not because it looks good to *love*
> it. Thankyouverymuch.

You mean people going out and doing something because they think it's a
fun thing to do?
wow, and here I thought this concept was lost on the world.
I currently goto Goth Clubs because I find it to be fun.
I dress in a way I hope blends in w/ the astedic(sp?) because that is
part of the enjoyment.
When/if it ever stops being fun I'm going to stop doing it and go do
something else that I find entertaining.

Cymbeline

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

FireyDemon wrote:
>
> An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy
> look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
> and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?

I think this calls for the whole family to give PapaPan a group hug
*hugs Pan*. Come on guys.


> All this learning in my absent mind aaaaaach! HELP!!! Some damn good
> threads have come from random thoughts yur just jealous you don't have cool
> random thoughts good nuff to be threads.

Very true! And who really gives a crap if they're meaningless? We
shouldn't have to be morbid and serious all the time.

> If I have to earn perkygothness thas fine but I got rights to it long ago
> you have no idea the hell I have walked that is my life. My body is 15 my
> mind is 20, that isn't phun at all, but it happens.

Waaaaaaaaaaah!! There is another one stuck in a body 5 years too young
for her!! I thought I was the only one! I always figured I was used in
some kind of weird science experiment (like a lab-mouse) when I was
little and it warped the growth of my brain to go faster than that of my
body.

> What the hell is the point? Flaming only creates more fluff which makes
> you my dear, a HYPOCRITE.

You tell her sister!! Anyway, if she doesn't like what's being posted
here, she can just move her damn arse on to another group.

> >If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
> >snub people like you in everyday life.

> > I've been forgiving you here

> >because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it. You've


> >been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
> >that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
> >the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.
>

> The door is, umm where is the door. Well if all you wanna do is whine and
> snivel and complain you may as well leave and I don't wanna hear how much
> longer you've been here cuz that doesn't mean shit. Anyway, Like I said,
> alt.angst just a couple letters up the list. Oh perhaps may be if there
> isn't and alt.whiner you should see about creating it ya know? I think it's
> prime for you.

Oh yes, I really hope she does forgive me for not being as damn deep and
morbid as her wonderfully philisophical self (a hint of sarcasm if you
didn't notice).

Cymbies- a recently learned Perkygoff
The immortal moon-pie goddess
I *heart* cute little morbid Pan

"Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit, I" -Pink Floyd

Stained

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

SiNs CHiLde wrote:

> Are you Fucking satisfied now???

Oh, so sorry. I was looking for alt.gothic, I didn't realize this was
alt.playground.politics.

Jesus H. Christ!! I go away for not even three weeks and come back to
find this whole place squabbling like some inbred white trash family
fighting over the last chicken wing.

This is not about perky versus mopey, nor is it about substance versus
fluff, or old skool versus new skool. It's simply a matter of different
people with different personalities and different styles. Yes, there
could be any number of far more interesting threads going on here. How
about instead of bitching at one another, we all try and start something
worth reading? And instead of following through on that itchy trigger
finger and flaming everything you don't like, we all try and practice a
little bit of tolerance and patience. None of us have any more right to
be here than anyone else, and each and every one of us should be
dedicated to making this place *interesting*. And yes, I mean
"worthwhile" interesting, not "let's stop and look at that car wreck
interesting".

I know this is just a (hopefully) more eloquent version of one of those
"why can't we all just get along" posts, but really... This whole feud,
or whatever you want to call it, is bringing out the worst in absolutely
everyone, and has made a lot of people that I previous liked and
respected come off like complete assholes. If there are some of you that
don't like one another, that's fine. You're completely entitled to your
opinions. And if you don't want to deal with reading posts that don't
interest you, get a killfile, or at least figure out who it is you don't
like and don't read their posts. It's really not all that complicated.

To think that I actually missed alt.gothic and was anxious to get back
online. Shit, I'm just gonna go watch Friends or something, it's all
become pretty much the same thing.

Sheryl
(oh, and incidentally, birthdays suck, don't let anyone tell you
different)

Tom S.

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Andrew L. Garman wrote:
>
> Tom S. wrote:
> Leanan wrote:

> | This is just the standard 'this group is going to hell in a handbasket'
> | paragraph.
>

> The group isn't going to hell...it's there...big, big difference...
> pointing out a decadence and doomsaying...

Well having not been here in the 'glory days' I see it as naysaying and
over concern for what is probably a minor problem.



> Of all the people on this group...Charlotte is amongst those who've
> done their damnedest to fill it with substance and still maintain a bit
> of decorum...that all she's done, and ablatross and lk and xthlic and
> others can be passed over by some sorry ass commentary about not "adding
> new blood" disgusts me...

I am speaking mostly from experience in other groups, so far most of the
'why won;t any one post anything good' people are the last ones who
bother to post anything good at all. But I am not closed to the fact
that exceptions exist.

> This isn't the real world and their real world achievements
> won't blow over for snot here...if your comporte is that of a simple
> minded and trivial person...by hellfire, you should be treated no
> better for it...do *you* understand the point?

But their real world selves will be reflected in their online persona


> The problem isn't that they are perky...there *is* no depth...
> As much as I think your offbase, that you are just posting here to seek
> abuse, and that your rationality is flawed...you manage quite well not
> to fall into the cardboard cutout people drawer that so much of alt.gothic
> is in right now...you're not flat...just horribly deluded...

I'm taking this as a compliment, thank you very much.



> | I think most people here know that if you are willing to post you take
> | the chance someone won;t like it and on rare occasions REALLY let you
> | know how much they didn't like it.
>

> Don't hold back...! Let me know...!

I enjoyed it, strength comes from finding our flaws and trying to
fix/work around them.
Critisism dosn;t phaze me that much.

> | Practice makes perfect.


>
> Some require more than practice to not sound like some
> boisterous fatheaded father-figure...

Hey, i'm working on it :)

> | > unless someone can give me a damn good reason why I
> | > shouldn't, I'm going to start tearing apart people who post useless,
> | > insubstantial fluff effective immediately.
>

> | ummm, how about basic civility?
>

> To what ends...yes come in fill my computer with tripe...I'll
> be nice to you...fuck that...if you don't have anything I want to hear
> and make it a habit of saying it...SHUT UP...will eventually be spat
> into your face...

Personaly I like to assume 'nice person' untill the person in question
proves me otherwise.
once they have proven that they are a waste if skin then I'm all for
giving them both barrels.

> "I don't blame you that I don't want to be your friend"
>
> But don't push the issue, don't deceptively think the words
> passing us are unwelcome and if too frequent, down right bothersome...
> UNDERSTOOD?

I usualy just read the threads I find intresting untill they become
trip, then I start skipping over them, but also keep a look out for any
name I reconize as posters whos stuff I like to read.

> No offense intended by all this, just trying to clarify here...

None taken, I've had worse from friends, but then again isn;t that the
whole point of going out for coffee?

Tom S.

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Marcus Pan wrote:
> And >I< think I posted enough to earn some flame-retardant
> underwear. And >others< think that. And, frankly, if >you< don't, I
> honestly don't give a shit at this point.

Screw the flame-retardant underwear, I want kerosine-soaked underwear.
If the expression of my own oppnions is enough to send someone into a
whiny-pissy rant then that just more points for me.

Albatross

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>
> *bigevilgrin*
>
> Marcus Pan (p...@idt.net) writes:

> > conversation when you walk in a coffeehouse? No, I don't think so. Who
> > was it that attributed alt.gothic to an online coffee house? I don't
>

> that predates most of us.... ask dragoness or oddly. actually, it might
> have *been* dragoness or lady b. :)

Eric Oehler. The Dragoness sig'd im.

>
> and also meanwhile, Isshould clarify that I'm perfectly aware that this
> happens (this degradation of alt.gothic) all the time. Like every two
> months. Of course it'll get beter. it always does. But every time it
> falls in a hole, we loose at leat one good person because they've just
> given up....

And this is a particularly dreadful hole.
I'm living wiht a net.goth who simply doesnt read a.g. anymore because
she feels it has become a waste of her time. And I can think of several
others.

>at this point in my net.life, I love far too many of the
> people here to isk any of them leaving me.... I couldn't bear that.... I'm
> going to do my damndest to keep 'em here....

Exactly. You're going to make me cry.
But there are some good signs, too.
Seeing multiple postings from the Raphrat almost had me orgasming this
morning...now, see, if he posts 20 times in a day, I'm not going to look
at the group and say,"what the fuck'...I'm going to say...the dude has
fucking gone off...woo wooo...thats because I've laughed at almost
everything he's said for coming up on two years...so yeah, thers some
history...and yeah, thers some seniority...and that doesnt mean that a
newbie cant get an ear...it does mean that reputations are developed
over time, and then for good reasons...not how many names you can put on
your rolodex...
And there are many others who I consider damn fine posters...and I wont
start naming names...but I've seen posts from them today...but hell, Id
like to see more of it...and there are others who could be fine posters
if they would post less and think a little more about what they do
post...

And I'm ready to nail down my corner of this coffin.


A

Albatross

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

FireyDemon wrote:
>
> An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy
> look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
> and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?

Uh oh.
You just came down very hard on the wrong side of this little debate,
ya little shit.
You're dealing with something that has been going on for a long time
before you popped in with your little squeeks and squawks, and will
hopefully be going on for a long time after your vapid, banal and
insignificant non-entity of a person has mercifully vanished.

In flaming Charlotte, you just went way over the line of what I will
tolerate from a moronic little twit that apperntly hasnt got the grey
matter to see where the chips are going to fall. You've got my heart
beating faster than a man of my age ought to have to risk. Charlotte has
proven herself over time, deary. So far, Pan boi has shown that he can
post often, thats it. Charlotte's ability to think the way she can at
her age is exceptional. I wouldnt hesitate for a moment using the word
genius to describe her.

Hows this for a flaming of papaPan?
*takes Pan,
grinds him into flour,
adds water, salt, and yeast,
adds assorted babygoths,
tosses the concoction in the oven.
Waits*

Double bubble, toil and trouble.
*smoke wafts through the air*
Mmmmm...smells good.
*bing* Times up.

Why look here. A pan of Pan! A Pan loaf!
I think I've won the bread war.
*breaks open loaf of pan*
*babygoths fly away*
Look! Magic! Four and twenty banalities, baked in the pie.
Fly away baby blackbirds, fly away.

*tosses bread at random passer by, for good measure*

</flame>

Albatross

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Marcus Pan wrote:

> Needless? I come here to have fun. You obviously come here for other
> reasons, probably for intellectual stimulation.

Since when is intellectual stimulation not fun?
Hey Pan.
*plonk*


A

ren

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

Pity how some people do nothing more than post to practice their personal
plethora of phrases. However, your point is prime pertaining to pussies
pondering the preponderance of PULP!

RenMao Speaks!

Does this fucking shit seem trite to you? Well you just don't get it.
alt.gothic is here to serve as my base of operations for the take-over of
the planet. These are my legions in trainning!

We will flood the Internet with nonsense, then grip your balls and crush
them. Unbeliever!


kestrel

unread,
Sep 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/11/97
to

I am beginning to regret posting a couple things to this thread the other
day. because they weren't the kind of things to make everything better. I
think the thing that's bothering me the most, see, is that it seems like
alot of people are begining to genuinely dislike other people. And this
makes me very sad. See, when I first started reading alt.gothic many
moons ago, one of the things I liked was how everybody seemed to get
along. Yeah they'd flame the hell out of each other, but that's because,
number one, people said what they really felt and people don't always
agree, and number two it was fun. Alt.gothic ws a utopia full of really
intelligent people with cool .sig files. (ok, so it wasn't as great as I'm
making it out to be, but it was pretty cool.) Now it seems like a lot of
people are getting genuinely annoyed at some of what other people are
posting, and those people are saying "why should I care if I annoy you? go
someplace else." Why should you care? because I want everybody to be
friends, dammit! And its everybody's newsgroup. I feel funny asking
people to have respect for other people's legitimate complaints, because
that kind of thing needs to come from the heart, but, well.... And its
not even that I personally have a problem with any individuals (or types
of individuals), just certain types of posts. I mean if it was people,
I'd just killfile them, but all these people making these posts _also_
occasionally post meaningful stuff. Which is why I was willing to step
out and try to help make them see the error of their ways. But I don't
think I did too well. Although that thread does have some highly
entertaining stuff in it, people still seem to be mad! Can't everybody
_try_ to get along? *sniff sniff* please? shake hands now, and tell each
other your sorry, there you go...

kes, who would really like to go back to lurking, if she could...

--
And we walk the proud walk
And we see the fine sights
And we bleed in our drinks
And we fight and we fight...

SiNs CHiLde

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

On 11 Sep 1997 18:29:31 GMT, alga...@cis.ysu.edu (Andrew L. Garman)
wrote:

>
>Lady Greycat wrote:
>| But i really hope this rift thing is imagined or maybe excelerated
>| cause Charlotte is involved in it personally, because i would really
>| really hate to see alt.gothic.perky and alt.gothic.mopey. And gawd
>| knows the flame wars would get nasty if that ever happened.
>

> It isn't perky v. mopey, it's trite v. depth...etc...

Not perky vs Mopey?? *phew*
If that were the case I'd have to grab ye ole sword and slice myself
to bits! .....or perhaps I would rip and tear myself apart... which
seems more goth to you? which more avant garde?
Decisions decisions...


*sigh*
-=SiNnEr=-
SiNsC...@aol.com

FireyDemon

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy
look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?

Charlotte Ashley master of all things gothy and underworld ruler of


alt.gothic (or so it NOW seems) wrote:

>'kay, here's the thing:

Thas good but hold just a sec k? Before you begin I'd like to add we
stopped the whole "I dare you thing" a long ass time ago, like in 3rd grade
that got lame.

>right now I'm teetering between really pissed of and really genuinely
>frightened.

I think thas kinda like an anxiety attack but it truly seems like a
personal problem and perhaps you should see a psychologist seeing as how
you hate us all anyway, why would you want our help?

> I don't like either feeling.

Them's are the breaks in this silly thing called life, learn to deal with
it. The rest of us have.

>it's unsettling, I want to go
>to sleep. I hae to work at 7 am, for christ's sake. I'm generally
>annoyed that I should have to be worrying about this at all.

Please do if something this little unsettles you. You're not the only one
that works and I used to get up at 5 to be at school for my 7 am class and
didn't leave till 4 because of newspaper and then worked after so um, get
off it. Really I don't see why you are "worrying" about "this".

>There's this sorta tension on alt.gothic, and f you didn't notice, raise
>your hand *right now* and I'll send the Large Men to kill you as soon as
>possible. We have something of a bittergoff-perkygoff rift.

::raises her hand:: Tell them large men to fuck before they kill me I du
wanna die a virgin. There's no rift cept the one you're causing.

>Big Rift.

Like the crack of your ass? (sorry I know that was low and lame but right
now, I don't care I'm jest a fluff ball la dee da.

>Getting Bigger Rift.

Why? Did you shove yet another stick up it or something? Damnit thas not
good for you!

>I sorta hoped it would progress into a delightful lot of squashing,
>flaming and beating, with bitter old heros coming to reclaim sacred
>ground. Uh, I'm not getting lucky on this one.

Umm gee that's a real good thing. You must not be getting lucky here or
anywhere else it seems.

>Instead, the bitter old heros are getting disgusted and are leaving.
>Going away. Not promising to be back.

Like um, who needs um anyway? Disgusted, geeez if you don't like a thread,
simply don't frucking read it! Damn that is hard.

>I can't decide if this scares me or pisses me off.

By the friendly yet timid manner this was oh so carefully written in I can
tell scared. <giggles>

>So I have two big things to say:

Someone alert the media! Wait, lemme guess. Two big things? hmm, not much
of a clue so I can only guess your ass and your twat? Sorry I mean you
don't play fair you give me one clue and expect me to guess.

>1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise
>when a thread as run dry.

Geee, actually I'm an honors student with a high GPA and still a perkygoth
and you as a goth should know far better than to generalize. And threads
die when their time comes as we hope you will.

>Learn not to post one liners unless they are
>actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the
>fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor
>thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I
don't
>care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30 msgs of it.

All this learning in my absent mind aaaaaach! HELP!!! Some damn good


threads have come from random thoughts yur just jealous you don't have cool
random thoughts good nuff to be threads.

>2) to those of you of the old, grizzled, intellectual nature, post shit.

>Post lots and lots and lots, and at least try to balance out all that
>goddamn fluff. Don't leave and give up, make your own fun. And flame.
>As far as I'm concerned at this poitn in time, gratuitous fluff is now on
>my to-die list. I don't care if it isn't
technically "trolling", as far
>as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never posted a goddamn thing
>to earn flame retardant clothing.

I now see what you want. You need to go up a few blocks to alt.angst. I
think you have the two confuzzled. I mean what the hell is the point of
encouraging flames? So you can hurt people because perhaps they don't meet
yur godly standards? Umm hope you know some of the perkygoths you are
insulting are under ownership of a big mean ol Pan boi, so watch yur ass.
<giggle> Oh yeah Pan already laid into ya, good boi.

>It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.

It's obvious you are a couple thousand Kool-Aid points away from earning
it huh? Well I can give you some I dye my hair a lot.

>Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
>put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I
>adore some of the perkygoffs in this group.

::bats her eyes:: Like me? Super goddess and Turok Dinosaur Hunter? Fluff
and silliness are cool and so are cartoons. Watch some every now and then
it may lighten you up and it seems you can use it.

>They've proven to me that
>they have something under the *bounce*ing.

If I have to earn perkygothness thas fine but I got rights to it long ago


you have no idea the hell I have walked that is my life. My body is 15 my
mind is 20, that isn't phun at all, but it happens.

>Some of you have managed, and I don't know how, to make regular status


>without ever posing a thing that contributed to the building of this
>group.

I slip under the carcks I'm oh so sorry how ever may I do pennance for not
"building" the group? Ohhhhhh the guilt!


> I AM A PRETENTIOUS FUCK

We figured that. You're one of those people who sits in the corner at
clubs and pouts and sneers and stuff. The kind I wanna kick and ask em why
they are even there?! Hellooo? If life sucks just sooo bad kill yurself or
something.

>and I don't think just being "nice" is a
>good enough reason to be left unbaked.

I think you GET OFF on flaming or something, which seems to be a very
deeply root psych problem.

>This is, unfortunately, a warning.

Be afraid, be sooo damn frucking afraid! <giggle>

>I may not be a very good flamer, but I can loose some pretty good venom

>when I need to. unless someone can give me a damn good reason why I


>shouldn't, I'm going to start tearing apart people who post useless,
>insubstantial fluff effective immediately.

What the hell is the point? Flaming only creates more fluff which makes


you my dear, a HYPOCRITE.

>If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
>snub people like you in everyday life.

Oh that makes me feel so small and worthless AND it shows your terrible
self esteem.

> I've been forgiving you here
>because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it. You've
>been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
>that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
>the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.


The door is, umm where is the door. Well if all you wanna do is whine and
snivel and complain you may as well leave and I don't wanna hear how much
longer you've been here cuz that doesn't mean shit. Anyway, Like I said,
alt.angst just a couple letters up the list. Oh perhaps may be if there
isn't and alt.whiner you should see about creating it ya know? I think it's
prime for you.

Is it hot in here or is it just me,uh oh I smell flames coming my way, oh well.

Sparkle & Fade
~Hi!!ary~

"Some Piglets have it, some donkeys don't." Eeyore
<3 Ich liebe mein PaPa PAN <3


Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to


*bigevilgrin*

Marcus Pan (p...@idt.net) writes:


> Andrew L. Garman wrote:
>> The group isn't going to hell...it's there...big, big difference...
>> pointing out a decadence and doomsaying...
>

> Maybe by your standards...I think the group is doing just fine.
>

I find it very hard to beleive that you would read usenet over irc and yet
not miss substance in posts. Yes, fun and in jokes are grand, but at this
particular second in time, there is *nothing else*, and some people get
easily annoyed by in-jokes. I always hated them when I was in high
school. (that was the last time I had to put up with them) I was usually
left out, but couoldn't see why I wanted to be in.... they were pretty
mindless....

maybe your standards are too low.

>> Of all the people on this group...Charlotte is amongst those who've
>> done their damnedest to fill it with substance and still maintain a bit
>> of decorum...that all she's done, and ablatross and lk and xthlic and
>> others can be passed over by some sorry ass commentary about not "adding
>> new blood" disgusts me...
>

> Why the hell would you want "new blood?" Aren't you one of the ones
> lamenting that the group sucks now BECAUSE of the "new blood?"
>

I'm not complaining about new blood. There a lots of new people I like here.

I'm complaining about old blood and new blood letting their fingers run
away without them. Usenet is a public area, everyone shares the same. If
we use it all the time posting everyuthign wiwhitch doesn't necessarily
apply to anyone, then it gets crowded, dirty, and some people can't see.

It *should* be a general rule to not post something unless you thinkk that
it holds something for most everybody- be it topic, tone of post, ideas,
whatever. In jokes are cool if they are funny or if everyone is in on
them. "hehhehheh remember that 8thing* we did?" isn't constructive to
anyone.

>> won't blow over for snot here...if your comporte is that of a simple
>> minded and trivial person...by hellfire, you should be treated no
>> better for it...do *you* understand the point?
>

> No. If the ONLY thing you consider in another person is ONLY their
> "Usenet life," then that's pretty damn sorry. These are just words on a
> fucking screen. What I do here is similar to what I do outside of this
> little cybernetic "hell," as you call it, and therefore plays as MUCH of
> a role in what I post. That was his *point*.

All we see of a person is their "usenet" life. If that person chooses not
to show us all the good stuff that's there, well for fuck's sake, I'm
going to assume there's nothing else there.

usenet is a communication device and possibly a language that needs to be
mastered in order to communicate effectively with it....

>
> So don't read those "regulars" that you don't like. THEY have their
> friends, and THEY like what they say to eachother and that gives them
> just as much right as you to post here. Do you but into every

We don't all have killfiles.

This is a public forum, for public conversation.what is said should be
made to include *everyone*, and then people can choose to ignore it as
they see fit. Now, indeed, we ignore some threads, but somethings are
just rediculous: we would flame people if a bunch of masonites came in and
started taking up 50% of the group talking about how cool manson is,
because more people than those few couoldn't give a flying fuck about manson.

So when one posts 30 msgs a day in two threads about something completely
insubstantial that you can't get in on if you missed the first two posts,
a large n8umber of people are going to get *really irritated*

> conversation when you walk in a coffeehouse? No, I don't think so. Who
> was it that attributed alt.gothic to an online coffee house? I don't

that predates most of us.... ask dragoness or oddly. actually, it might
have *been* dragoness or lady b. :)

>

>> Some require more than practice to not sound like some
>> boisterous fatheaded father-figure...
>

> Is that a hit on me by any chance? I'm just curious...with my PapaPan
> .sig and all it honestly sounds like a direct hit on me. Sorry if it's
> not...maybe I'm just pissy (could you tell?).

a personal jab, pan: would you please stop using such typical
coloquialisms? reading phsases liek "oh wait, I forgot..." and "...could
you tell?" becomes redundant after you've read them for three years....

>
>
>> I agree...but I'd rather just have alt.gothic back to where it
>> was a year ago...with a few added benefits (like squirrelboi)...
>

> But yet you can bitch about bringing in "new blood." That doesn't make
> sense.


Yes it does. It's called screening. We're pretentious fucks, or, at
least, I am. I love new people, but only if they are intelligent,
constructive people. I don't have 98% of the world's population because
they are mean to me, I hate them because they just aren't very useful
human beings.

Meanwhile, I suspect tmost people on this newsgroup *are* worth the cost
of their making, I just want to *see* it, otherwise I'm going to give up
and assume that they suck like the rest of this fucked up world. I'm sick
of putting up with people who waste bandwidth and take over threads when I
don't feel a thing from them... they've never posted anything moving,
they've never gave me anything new to think about, they've never made me
laugh, or cry, or smile even. They are just *sitting* there using more
emotes than words.


WHY??!?!?!??

and also meanwhile, Isshould clarify that I'm perfectly aware that this
happens (this degradation of alt.gothic) all the time. Like every two
months. Of course it'll get beter. it always does. But every time it
falls in a hole, we loose at leat one good person because they've just

given up.... at this point in my net.life, I love far too many of the


people here to isk any of them leaving me.... I couldn't bear that.... I'm
going to do my damndest to keep 'em here....

leanan sidhe


--
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bi284

Life is one big ink blot.

Exiled

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

firey...@aol.com (FireyDemon) wrote:

>An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy
>look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
>and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?

[snip]


>Is it hot in here or is it just me,uh oh I smell flames coming my way, oh well.

Now, really, Lady Hillary, that is not a good way to act. *sigh* You
know that one cannot argue with flaming and insults, and here you go
doing the exact thing to be avoided. Again, as I counseled Sin's
Cylde, take a clam and rational view of the situation. Nothing can be
accomplished with this destructive infighting, so reminiscent of
alt.syntax.tactical.

Now I am sure that neither you nor anyone else disagreeing with the
Lady Charlotte would endeavor to say such things in the mode of real
life to on another, so let us rid ourselves of this petty bickering,
and come to a compromise.

*sigh*

Regards And Respects,
Exiled

-GothCode V.3.1.A-
GoAu2Th1AT5$ TJtFeAn5 PMoShSg B9/23Bk cBk(B)-s3 V6s M4
ZGoPusTeiClMehMebJa C7o a20- n4 b55 H183 g6??92A mZ0@Z4&
w8T v5R r5 p639Z5Hm D66!* h9(MoSaSc) SM7n SsWy k7BdSMmDspT
N1192CNW RnS LusGA5
"Who is John Galt?" -- Atlas Shrugged / Ayn Rand


Exiled

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

pan...@ix.netcom.com (SiNs CHiLde) wrote:

>HEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>CHARLOTTE ASHLEY!!!!


>Are you Fucking satisfied now???

[snip]
> *hmmm* <Gee> I Think so! *GriN*
>-sincerely-

*cough* Ahem, Sin's Chylde, there is no need for the flaming verbiage.
I am certain [quite certain] that this entire issue can be resolved in
a peaceful frame of mind, and that anger and frustration will do
nothing more but lengthen the process.

In short, please calm down, as insulting and flaming are the acts of
the base and vile peasantry, in whose ranks I know you do not stand.

Exiled

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Cymbeline <fl...@buffnet.net> wrote:

>Oh yes, I really hope she does forgive me for not being as damn deep and
>morbid as her wonderfully philisophical self (a hint of sarcasm if you
>didn't notice).

> Cymbies- a recently learned Perkygoff
>The immortal moon-pie goddess
>I *heart* cute little morbid Pan

Please, Lady Cymbeline, I beg of you, read my replies to Lady
FireyDemon and Lady Sin's Chylde. These arguments of flaming do us no
good.

SiNs CHiLde

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

HEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CHARLOTTE ASHLEY!!!!

Are you Fucking satisfied now???

I swear!
You've been trying to get people all up in arms for freaking ever, and
it appears that you have *Finally* suceeded.
It pisses me off that the ppl I like to read posts from in this NG
are now fighting because of you're lame ass antics! I swear! you are
so Holier than thou sometimes!! I agreed w/your last post about perky
wanna bes, but this is going a tad far!
It pisses me off that the PPL i respect here are now arguing w/each
other for you damn amusement! <and you *are* amused, aren't you?>
*ugh* Just because YOU dont like something doesnt mean its not
GOOD, and a world w/o FLuFF would be a SHITTY world to LIVE in! And I
think you're childish NEED for perpetual FLAME wars is quite BoRiNg,
since ACTUAL flamewars are derived from EMOTIONS or strong BELIEFS.
Obviously *that* is something *You* are not deep enough to
comprehend... does that classify you as a goFF w/no substance??

*hmmm* <Gee> I Think so! *GriN*
-sincerely-

-=SiNnEr=-
SiNsC...@aol.com

SPAM.hotmail.com

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

On 12 Sep 1997 02:36:20 GMT, bi...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charlotte
Ashley) wrote:


>.... please don't mention my name as if it's something special. my
>involvement has nothing to do with anything.... if there were any number
>other people here, you wouldn't know me from anyone else. fuck, even
>filth looks good when you're swimming in shit, I suippose.... >

I only mentioned your name because you were the original poster...:)

Greycat
____________________________________________________________________________
(Remove NO SPAM before responding)

"Black as midnight, black as pitch, blacker than the foulest witch!"


OrchydNoir

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

>From: Albatross <tpa...@drizzle.com>

> adds assorted babygoths,
> tosses the concoction in the oven.

<raises hand>

Erm, excuse me..

I don't mean to interrupt this
flame war, but I've something to say..

Don't bring me into this. I don't believe I've done
anything to offend anyone.
Just because I am one of Pan's babygoths
does not make me an automatic stump.

Thank you, and good day.

.-.
( ) Orchyd Black ~ Putting the *laughter*
\ / back in *manslaughter* since 1983..
--+--
| I *heart* PapaPan!
|

oddlystrange

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

>You mean people going out and doing something because they think it's a
>fun thing to do?
>wow, and here I thought this concept was lost on the world.
>I currently goto Goth Clubs because I find it to be fun.
>I dress in a way I hope blends in w/ the astedic(sp?) because that is
>part of the enjoyment.
>When/if it ever stops being fun I'm going to stop doing it and go do
>something else that I find entertaining.

the east coast branch office hereby dubs you with the official title of:

perkygoff village court jester.

You'd be suprised at how many people on here (ie alt.gothic) fit the
original definition of perkygoff without even knowing it. Charlotte,
you're one of 'em if anything for making a stand like you did. Choas
Control (there I said it) is another one for simply just sticking to his
guns, although I would have to dub him the perkygoff village idiot, but
that's a whole other matter.

There are people on this newsgroup who have taken the label and *don't*
deserve it. They've taken the new santitised version of it and ran with
it. It's kinda like when wearing velvet goes through its trendy phases. A
lot of peple wearing it who are just wearing it because it looks good, not
because it feels good.

I dunno, I've had this argument *so* many times in the last few years, and
even more so since joel left. You can count on this thread happening about
twice a year -- expect the next installment in March or so. Once again
someone will be ballyhooing that alt.gothic is being split into a perky
camp and a mopey camp. It's been happening ever since someone thought that
perkygoff means perkygoof.

As for people saying they want alt.gothic like it was a year ago, go hit
dejanews and look at alt.gothic in 1994. It was more like a friendly
mailing list than a fucking Starbucks coffee house. ahh but far be it from
me to lament about this place. I feel its as much a home as the town I
grew up in and never left. Not that I feel obligated to be here, no matter
what shape a.g. is in I miss it when I haven't seen it in a while.

So far as the perkygoff thing goes, well...whatever.

I still love the idea and the concept, but not the current execution.
Sadly, that seems to be the only trend I see a lot of in my life.

oddlystrange

(who should just let the whole thing drop except damnit I *like* my label)

Sharlet Ashley

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

*oh dear god*

*between tears and laughing hysterically*


Oh god..... oh no.....


hi guys. *waves* fellow perky babygoth here.... I'm not going to live
up to my flame promise tonight, 'cause as of this second I'm laughing too
hard. But I have a few tips....

Cymbeline (fl...@buffnet.net) wrote:
: FireyDemon wrote:
: >
: > An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy


: > look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
: > and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?

: I think this calls for the whole family to give PapaPan a group hug


: *hugs Pan*. Come on guys.


I mean this with the utmost respect, you have beautiful dedication. It's
very sweet of you. So don't hate me.....

did you type that with a straight face? I mean, especially the "common
guys" part. I feel like I'm back at summer camp. oh, I can't stop
laughing....


you guys are too cute.....


fuck, I hate cute....


: > All this learning in my absent mind aaaaaach! HELP!!! Some damn good


: > threads have come from random thoughts yur just jealous you don't have cool
: > random thoughts good nuff to be threads.

honey.....

there are people who post to this newsgroup without proper grammer, and it
is unique, and a symbol against societal conforming..... but you should,
well, try to make sense.... even a little....

...some damn good threads have come from random thoughts <period> yur just
jealous <that> you don't have random thoughts good enough to be
threads....

Maybe I don't, but I'm not sure I want my name attached to a thread
entitled "babygoth's first day of school" or somesuch. To think I spent
my first year and a half of alt.gothic trying to act as old and mature as
the eldergoths. And here I could have slacked off and flaunted my
immaturity and babyness to everyone. Where was I when the good times
rolled in?

: Very true! And who really gives a crap if they're meaningless? We


: shouldn't have to be morbid and serious all the time.

"morbid" is not the opposite of "meaningless", little one. "meaningful"
is the opposite of meaningless.

as I posted earlier, you are walking along the very thin line between
perkygoffness and bubblebrainness. Unless you can explain to me exactly
how the two differ, with examples, than I am inclined to call a lot of
your threads "irritating" over "perky".

: > If I have to earn perkygothness thas fine but I got rights to it long ago


: > you have no idea the hell I have walked that is my life. My body is 15 my
: > mind is 20, that isn't phun at all, but it happens.

( periods, dear. at the end of thoughts. so we can read your stimulating
and overwhelming insight)

: Waaaaaaaaaaah!! There is another one stuck in a body 5 years too young


: for her!! I thought I was the only one! I always figured I was used in
: some kind of weird science experiment (like a lab-mouse) when I was
: little and it warped the growth of my brain to go faster than that of my
: body.

*

Oh, dear god.

tell me, dear hatchling, if you could pick oner person in the world to be
the face of wisdom, who would it be?

even should you truely be so far beyond your years as youclaim, how the
fuck shuld we know if you perpetually insist on spelling everything cute,
never posting longer than 10 lines, and what is longer comprises of the
same thoughts everyone else desiphered when *they* were 15?

christ. well, being but a token babygoth, maye I'm not one to judge how
far along in maturity you are. God knows I'm only at the 17 year old
stage. That would give you.... three years on me. Teach me. One
thought, it's all I ask. Observations, beauty, only your observations
from the grand old premature age of 20. That cannot be mutch to ask.


( em masse: my age rant? I see why I am consistantly judged now. I had
no idea what many other teenagers where like. I'm a little dissapointed,
I must say. spoiled with treasures like aidan, leo, bane.... fuck.)

: > What the hell is the point? Flaming


only creates more fluff which makes
: > you my dear, a HYPOCRITE.

And you my dear, have bad debating skills. I would like to see some sort
of source for that quote.... flames beget fluff? Montre moi.... and when
did you arive in this newsgroup? pre or post TSM?

: You tell her sister!! Anyway, if she doesn't like what's being posted


: here, she can just move her damn arse on to another group.

I could.

so could a lot of other people.

Honestly, guys, anyone with your phenominal level of maturity and
intelligence should be able to recognise a jewel of a person when you see
one.... don't you see that should your attitude take over the group, some
of the most wonderful people the world has to offer would be gone? I
don't see how you can argue that....

There are people here now, both new and old, who are phenominal People.
They are intelligent, witty, creative and insightful. They craft posts
that can make you cry, or laugh, or long or pine.... I've never read a
book as good as alt.gothic can be in some places.... but yet you seem to
view this place as a schoolyard where we play and throw snowballs at other
kids. There isn't a person in a playground who can make me feel as
stringly as some of the posters here have..... mind you, I haven't cried
in front mof my computer for months..... laughed a couple times (thanks,
caomhin. :), saw a very few moving things... twi's pain post, anne's love
post.... no, I take it back, I have cried once in these last months, but
he didn't stay.... and hasn't been here since you guys showed up.... if I
thought there was a connection I'd kill you.....

this group has created loyalties for me that I would die for and you want
*me* to find a new park so that you can have enough room to power tumble
in this one. Well fuck you. I don't even need to curse you, becuase
you won't ever know beauty. .... punnishment enough, that lack of
passion. *spit*


: >
: > The door is, umm where is the door. Well if all you wanna do is whine and


: > snivel and complain you may as well leave and I don't wanna hear how much

??? Do you have any *idea* how much you sound like those very same people
who say "goths suck" and other such shite? I'm bewildered.

: > longer you've been here cuz that doesn't mean shit. Anyway, Like I said,


: > alt.angst just a couple letters up the list. Oh perhaps may be if there
: > isn't and alt.whiner you should see about creating it ya know? I think it's
: > prime for you.

*deep breath*

What, exactly, do you see alt.gothic as? Tell me truely, what is it for,
for you?


: Oh yes, I really hope she does forgive me for not being as damn deep and


: morbid as her wonderfully philisophical self (a hint of sarcasm if you
: didn't notice).

...yes, I noticed. Did you notice that such a statement isn't entirely
necessary? It's akin to people who say "hehhehheh... oh, that was a joke.
see, aren't I fuckin' funny?" Don't ever write books. You over-explain
things. Sometimes you need to leave the reader to some of the oh-so
difficult thinking.


I am not deep.


I should be flamed within an inch of my life for that- but anyone who
would do that is gone, and I am sadder for it. This group used to be so
full of substance, depth and passions that it was indimidating to poast a
damn thing for fear of seeming pathetic next to the intellectual giants
that were here.

The standards here have *fallen*

I want to learn from what I read. I want to watch people who give me hope
for humanity. I want to think that this subculture *isn't* just a bunch
of spoiled kids wearing black to piss off mom and dad and being oh-so
melodramatic with their huuuuge problems because noooobody understands
them.


"help me help me these big meanies at school beat me up and stole my
candles and I neeeed them for my rituals tonight because, of, I'm a witch
doncha know, well, they didn't beat me really ('cause I would like that
hehheh) they just stepped on the train of my skirt and pulled it down and
everyone saw my underwear are white and not gooooothic...."


is the impression the world has of the gothic scene and *this* newsgroup
is the *only* fucking thing that proves them wrong.

DON'T FUCK THAT UP.


I hope some day you learn to appreciate what you don't have. I pity you
until then.


Marcus Pan

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

> Look, I lurk here. Post every once in a while, but not much. Only when I
> have something that _has_ to be said, that I think is reasonably
> intelligent, possibly funny, possibly serious, that other people would
> enjoy reading. So it bothers me that when I go to alt.gothic looking for
> something that is entertaining and intelligent I AM NO LONGER FINDING
> MUCH! I am finding hundreds and hundreds of messages that don't belong
> here, that hold nothing of interest for me. And I waste my time. And
> other people also waste their money, downloading all of it. There's a lot
> of people here talking about themselves, and I've got news for you - no
> one is liiistening.

Who the hell says it don't belong here? You? It's a waste of your
time, fine. Is it a waste of time for the other people that are still
talking on the thread? Or is it that we can only post what you want to
hear? No one is listening my ass...if that be true, there wouldn't be
threads would there?

--
-----=====>Papa-PAN<=====----- I *heart* Cymbeline
Adopter of lost BabyGoths everywhere... & Asafoetida & Hillary
----------------------- & Niles & Narnia &
The Pan Pages - http://www.zenweb.com/pan Leanan & OrchydNoir &
Legends Online - http://www.zenweb.com/legends Ghoulie!
Surreal RAYn - http://www.zenweb.com/rayn

Wendy Wanders, Subject 117

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

In article <34184B...@ix.netcom.com>, "Tom S." <sch...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Screw the flame-retardant underwear, I want kerosine-soaked underwear.
> If the expression of my own oppnions is enough to send someone into a
> whiny-pissy rant then that just more points for me.

Are you actually trying to say that if your opinions piss people off enough to
rant, that you're somehow better? Gads that's annoying and stupid. "I'm more
annoying than yoouuuuu are." Grow up, this is as annoying and unpleasant as
people who try to convince you how weird and freaky they are. Maybe I missed
something and you were making a joke of some sort?

losthaloGoFA6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoBnone=(cBKc8MBV6sM3ZGoPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4b55H1
73g4L??96FmT1Ea4@Z3w6Lv5Rr6Ep55555ZzD44h7sM8nSsNyk6BSMmpFNN0393NHfsSLusOH5"Whil
eyouarelisteningtothisrecording,yourwillingattentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintot
hepersonyouwanttobecome."committeeforsimpleentertainmentcommitteeforsimpleenter

Octavia

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

It was ME,<octavi...@globalserve.net> *I* wrote:

> Uhm, I don't know, I'm not a particularly very perky person, but I like
> the perkygoff posts: The hopelessly cheerful ones with that looks
> like it should've been said with a bounce and a giggle. They amuse me. They
> add something nice to this otherwise dreary community. Kinda like red roses
> in a dungeon.
>

Ah fuck, I have a NEED to clear myself up before I get burned. :p By "otherwise
dreary community"... let me rephrase that. I am not suggesting that goths
by nature are a depressing lot. I meant that if the posts are constantly
"serious" with serious topics and serious responses, it could really, really
weigh someone down. I don't think we should all have to be intellectual
heavyweights, or that we should have to carry an immense burden of information
and knowledge.

It's hard to be entertaining when one is "serious". Humour helps lift things
up just a bit, and much of the humour comes out of the perky side of things.
(Sarcasm just isn't funny sometimes, btw.) And I'm not saying that people
should aimlessly post total happy crappy fluff with absolutely no point or
in-conversations that no one else gets...*sigh* (Now THAT gets annoying).
There have been some wonderfully funny posts and responses here that have
been totally agreeable.

So far, it's an okay "dungeon".

Octavia
http://www.globalserve.net/~octavia

Marcus Pan

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Bradley W Zimmerman wrote:
>
> Andrew L. Gar...@cis.ysu
> > And so we have the Manifesto for alt.gothic.JIHAD...
> > and the battle cry is heard...who shall burn first?
>
> "2...5...0...0...0..."
>
> let the games begin, motherfucker...

OH, they've fucking begun...pass me that coffee over there.

(Just got home from Karate...adrenaline levels high...)

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Andrew L. Garman wrote:
>
> And so we have the Manifesto for alt.gothic.JIHAD...
> and the battle cry is heard...who shall burn first?

Woohoo! Don your asbestos underwear my friend, because I noticed a
little bit of personal vendetta in this little diddy.

> Abandonment sucks...hold your ground and fucking destroy the
> halfwit gigglekids...send the foul wretches back to alt.teen-talk...
> unite and make alt.gothic into the bitter, hostile and fervantly
> passionate place it once was...

Foul wretches? Gigglekids? Hmm. Do a little bit of research before
you assume the age of people. Yes, I have my gaggle of adoptees (WHICH
I might add has Leanan as one...I expect her to get pissed at me and
withdraw at any moment...but I'm hoping she's above that because I still
think she's cool). And I'm not sending them anywhere. When was the
last time someone made you feel fucking decent? I remember only a week
or two ago I was having a shit-ass day...oh, and by the way, mid-twens
here so I was at the fucking office, not school...and just seeing a half
dozen hearts to "PapaPan" fixed it. That's a little bit of medicine you
have to earn. So instead of trying to throw them out, how about talking
to them? I have. And I adore every one.

> It'd be nice if everyone had a killfile that automatically
> killed off...these stupid little insubstancial shits...ack, never has
> twilight managed to merit any of my disgust, though she *b*unce*s
> most of the time...(and hasn't ever responded to my poems!)...ack...
> there isn't a perkigoth-bittergoth rift...I'm a fucking PERKYGOFF, ask
> anyone who knows me...sardonic but perky is the best description...

You don't sound like a perkygoff...I suggest you go to Oddly's place or
over to Joel's and re-read the manifesto because you're way off base
here. Oh yeah, didn't I mention? I'm not as new as you think. Go
Gundy!

> But damn how I wish for a d*ck game where everytime the perky
> and slackbrained people bounce...everyone shoots them down...is a 30-06
> a good gun for gerbils?

Depends...probably. Gerbils are swift little things. S'ok though
because I can just swing my bat at any of the large heads that walk by.

> I'm wishing I'd just killfiled everyone like I used to...but
> then you'd post this and I'd say "huh?" Not to conducive to a community
> understanding....

Killfiling is your perogative. As you know, I don't. Everybody says
something cool sometimes.

> andru, alt.gothic is a fire and brimstone sorta place...

Burn, baby, burn. I'll be sure to reply FULLY in kind. Y'all have a
nice day now, y'hear?

Octavia

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

jab...@vgernet.net (Urisk) writes: > (bi...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) Charlotte Ashley enlightened us with:


> >

> > It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.

> > Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
> > put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I

> > adore some of the perkygoffs in this group. They've proven to me that


> > they have something under the *bounce*ing.
>

> I don't care if you've "earned" it. It still annoys me. I judge a message on
> it's content, not who posted it...


>
> > If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it.
>

> I hope I'm not the 1% you've got left. I may not entirely agree with the
> delivery (a bit heavy on posturing+rambling) but I do agree with the
> sentiment...
>


Uhm, I don't know, I'm not a particularly very perky person, but I like
the perkygoff posts: The hopelessly cheerful ones with that looks
like it should've been said with a bounce and a giggle. They amuse me. They
add something nice to this otherwise dreary community. Kinda like red roses
in a dungeon.

You get to know people after a while from what they post. After a while,
you could determine the perky ones from the mopey ones (yuck, I hate LINES),
so if anyone has problems, this is an easy way to distinguish posts.

One should do their fair amount of lurking to get at this information. I had to.


Octavia
http://www.globalserve.net/~octavia
"My life is a dark pit of darkness." ~Anne Gwish


Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Albatross wrote:
> Its not as simple as a rift between perky and mopey.
> The rift is between people who have been here a while, and made a sort
> of personal commitment to the group based on the quality of experience
> they got here, and seeming wave after wave of conversation that is
> absolutely needless in this sort of forum.

Needless? I come here to have fun. You obviously come here for other

reasons, probably for intellectual stimulation. Hell, I've contributed
to a number of them myself, from religion to guns to abortion to blood
letting to...well, you get the idea. But I respect why you come here.
Please, respect why >I< come here. Friendship and fun. I have a
family...it's not all that easy for me to hit Pipeline as often as I
used to, and I miss it. The letters from people I've met here, posts
from the group and things like that help me out here. I come here for
fun. 'nuff said.

> It isnt a matter of simply skipping it. It is a matter of magnitude. It
> isnt a few silly, pointless posts here and there. It is like wading
> through a swamp of this stuff. Every time a persons name appears here,
> he is contributing to the over-all feel of the group.

I like the over-all feel. Some think the groups currently gone to hell
in a hand basket. I think it's doing just bloody dandy.

> If I had his permission, I'd like to go back and quote Ron Carriers
> next to last post to this group. It seems pretty damn prophetic in
> retrospect.

Yes, it was a good quote. But I'd like to quote myself as I wrote to
andru earlier today, but shit I can't remember it (sigh). Andru, if you
could please post the paragraph I wrote about the group dieing. You
should know which one I mean. I've been answering so many fucking
letters and this sudden flame war (and yes, it's turned into a flame
war, much to my chagrin...but hey, I've stayed around, much to others'
chagrin so I guess we're even) that I can't remember it exactly.

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Urisk wrote:
> Actually I don't really see it, but then again I've been skipping most of
> the posts here lately... I'd actually like to see the rift get bigger. It
> disturbs me to see the bitter/mopey goths blend right in with the
> perkyfluffs...

Blend in my ass. It's quite obvious to a lot of people. If they blend
in, how do you know what to skip? Sorry I don't want to discuss Kafka
all fucking day.

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

kes wrote:
> Thats ok. But people here are judged by what they put on the screen. Not
> whether they wear black every day of the week, or work in a corporate job,
> or are the fucking president. Usenet is as close as you can come to being
> judged truly for the state of your mind, and not for any petty outside
> influences. I don't care what the hell you've been through, I care where
> you are now.

And how else did I get here other than by what I did IRL? Were you born
in your station? If you were, remove the silver spoon from your ass and
put it between your lips where it belongs. The only way I am where I am
now, is because I worked to get here. And by doing THAT, it makes what
I've done IRL relevant to my state of mind...that makes it relevant to
what I post.

> Ah. I am finally understanding the problem. No. You are wrong. Alt.gothic
> is _not_ a coffee house, you are _not_ having a conversation. This is a
> delusion. If thats what you want, you need to take it to email, or learn
> to use something calles I-R-C. let me repeat that -irc.

Let's see. Conversation is defined as DIALOGUE between two or more
people in most instances. It doesn't say anything about dialogue that
takes place over one month, one year, or just a few moments. So
discussions here do rank as "conversation." I'm sorry if I confused you
with using a word normally regulated to IRL, but the definition fits.

And YES, I can say IRC. I know exactly what the fuck Internet Relay
Chat is. Can you say ARPANET? I didn't think so.

That way all of
> the rest of us don't have to _listen_ too your fucking "conversation" so
> we can find something worth listening to. Newsgroups are more like...
> like a community newspaper. produced very very frequently.
> Also, if you are off topic, you aren't following nettiquete. And I am
> personally of the opinion that fluff is offtopic. (whereas flaming isn't.
> _especially_ on alt.gothic.)

There are plenty of people "listening" and contributing to my "fucking
conversations." As I said before, if not then the threads would die.
And topic is last I heard people in the gothic subculture discussing
things. It does not have to be GOTHIC things. And I personally think
that flaming is more fluff-filled than what you say is. It's nothing
but a pissing contest...and you just discolored your sock.

> My three or four cents,

And you didn't say much...so you get a nickel change.

Andrew L. Garman

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Marcus Pan wrote:
| Yes, it was a good quote. But I'd like to quote myself as I wrote to
| andru earlier today, but shit I can't remember it (sigh). Andru, if you
| could please post the paragraph I wrote about the group dieing.

This one:
"I've BEEN listening. I've listened to, AND replied in kind, on
EVERYTHING you and Leanan and anyone else including timmie, Ren, yadda
yadda (and who the hell is kes?) constantly. And it wasn't until today
that I got particularly flamey. I don't ignore any of you
guys...whether I disagree or not. I saw Albatross' post...I haven't
responded yet. He has some good points...I'll be among the first to
acknowledge them without a problem. If you're right, you're right. If
it's a matter of opinion, I can disagree. And that's what I'm doing.
Alt.gothic seems to be heading into a much more brutal direction...and
do you know what that means? How often do you think the old crew is
going to come back? Petro, TSM, Caffin. How often? MUCH less as we
grow older...and there WON'T be any new people...because they're all
going to be char-fucking broiled the second they say, "Hi." So the
newsgroup WILL DIE."

| You
| should know which one I mean. I've been answering so many fucking
| letters and

What the fuck? All this hell and you get letters...all I've
been getting is hate-mail...fucker, ;> ...I really do think your
paragraph isn't the scenario...but whom I to be the prophet...as
TSM still posts, reads maybe?...Caffin is regular again, isn't he...
petro is a myth...never really existed just a legend...he went out
when he tried to banish long .sig files...he was quite successful
at driving off long .sigs and building a good disgust in them...
but it killed him doing it...at least that is my perceptions...

I almost didn't come back after...the troll incident from
a while ago...the hardcore-gothic intertrolls...that entire incident
left a.g without 3 or 4 people who I looked forward to reading the
posts of each day...I don't feel any better about them for running
off...but I forgive them as they all do *have* other things to do...
some of them lurk again, I think...it's not enough... :(

More people left because of it...I don't much miss them as
some would have been gone by then anyhow...but a few casualties does
a great deal to make alt.gothic all that much less inviting...the
turn-over is about four months...every four months, the population
of alt.gothic consists of mostly people who have been here only
four months and some who have...but it doesn't matter as I've seen
some people come in the past month and leave already...People who *I*
didn't want to see gone...

There's no scape-goat for this...and the group is renoun for
tripe...it has been this since before I began posting here...Dec last
year...so christ, I don't know...I do know what is bothering me...if
anyone cares...go read the post "at andru's request"...you can read the
letters between Pariah and I...I'd rather just take for that what is due
and not beset anymore for it...but if you really want to know...read my
articles there...

I'm not likely to pay attention to any of this...for the next
couple days...if I find anything in me worthwhile to post...expect it.
There are enough people who have wrote me messages of appreciation
regarding my life/living posts that I'll continue...audiences are a
grand thing...but as it goes...I otherwise am not going to add to the
shite, or read anything that would rile me to the ire of a flame...

andru, should finish some of *his* own projects
artwork, poems and a fucking story all
demand my attention more than this...

If any of that interests you, or you care
to look at my webpage, here is the info:
http://www.geocities.com/soho/studios/4784
alga...@cis.ysu.edu

FireyDemon

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Leanan, allow me to step up and explain myself to you as I think you are
missing a few essential points.

A) I'm in honors and have been through plenty of English from hell. My
teacher was an anal retentive old man whose prized possesion was a "REDO"
stamp. I love that man now, believe me I do. I admit my posts tend to have
their fair share of grammatical errors, but I'm usually writing when I get
homr from school, hence I am dead tired and am not too concerned with it.
This is my only good time to post unless I have time in the evening, but as
an honors rat, I get loaded with homework. *sigh* The trials and
tribulations of me.

B) Allow me to explain what a "front" is. Most of my life is one big lie.
A fake happy little act. Amazing my drama teacher didn't think I was good I
pretended to like his class. That is beyond the point. The world sees me
happy. I am miserable inside, but how is anyone to know? I've got it down
so well I've convinced myself I'm happy. I would be the Prozac poster
child, but I fake it.

C) Think I have it easy and I'm into the goth scene to piss off mom and
dad? Well, I'll tell you right now that is plenty far from true. My parents
got divorced after 23 yrs of a crappy marriage. I sat up every night and
listened to themfight and for the first time heard my mother, the strongest
person I know, cry. My father would sometimes hit and slap her and it hurt
me. My brothers were so oblivious. At times I would get so angered and
frustrated that I would run out yell at my father to leave her alone, beg
them to stop fighting and cling to my mother knowing my father might hurt me.

Before my parents were even divorced my father, mid forties, was sleeping
with a 25 yr old woman. I caught on real fast. He claimed he shared an appt
with her because he was out of work when he finally moved out of the house.
He finally got sick of her immature behavior and let her go on her slutty
way, but that was hard for me to deal with. She tried to be my friend when
she just taking my father from me. I hated her and resented her sooo much.
I constantly fought her lame attempts to be chummy with me.

During the divorce once my father was out of the house I would listen to
my mother cry herself to sleep. When I went to visit my father on weekends
he filled me full of BS lies and I saw through all of it. I was more than a
pawn, I was a rope in an evil game of tug 'o' war. My father's little fling
whore had pretty much bashed my mother and tried to get me to live with my
father. I had become so confused and resented my mother for not letting me
live where I wanted. Later I realized he merely wanted me to avoid child
support.

All through the divorce and even still I saw the truth through all the
lies and my brother's were oblivious. This was all too much for me a bear
of little brain to deal with.My thoughts should have been on practicing for
my first parade in marching band and how I needed to become first chair
within a week to wear that pin in the parade. Instead, I was worried about
my mom, could she afford all those legal bills? If I could think about
killing myself, what was to say my own mother wouldn't? I quickly learned
to adjust to the problems of my adult mother as child.

I skipped 8th grade due to maturity and intellect. I moved in with my
father to be with my horse and older brother. My younger brother soon
followed and I know feel bad for leaving my mother the way I did. I was
merely running away from my problems. I ended up with more though. I was
working at a barn cleaning stalls and excercising horses to pay my $105
board for my horse and then other needs like vet care, shoes, tack, and any
showing I did I paid for. My father did pay feed and sometimes the vet
stuff, like when he nearly died. That was the only time. My father used
that horse to turn my brothers against me with their jealousy. The horse
was never really "mine" it was his all the time, but my brothers were so
brainwashed by this time they couldn't see it. They also had been turned
against my mother.

This wasn't the half of my problems. My father became emotionally abusive.
Every night when I came home from working my ass off at the barn and was
tired and sore he would yell and scream at me. We aren't talking "Clean
your room why don't you?" either. We're talking he would come in my room
and get right in my face, push me down when I was sitting on my bed, grab
my arms and yell. I heard everything from what a "lazy worthless
bitch/whore" I am to how I "don't respect him enough." And according to him
I didn't do enough around the house, but it was ok for my brothers to do
null. He was sexist and wanted me to do it all because I'm female. Gee,
what a prize. Like I had time after all the work after I did and my
homework. Usually I didn't do my homework, just cried myself to sleep. No
one at school had a clue. I was acting oh so happy.

One time when he came to get me at the barn I was cleaning stalls with my
very best friend. He hadn't told me when he was picking me up for my
brother's graduation and he got mad at me for wanting to go with my mom and
proceeded to yell at me in front of my bud and I cried myself senseless. I
was scared and embarrassed he told me to come with him to get the tickets
to graduation and I followed him out. I'm not sure what happened I was
scared and muttered yeses to everything he said. He grabbed my wrists and
slammed me into a stall door and proceeded to get in my face and yell at me
I was cowering like mad. This was in front of almost all my friends and
their parents and all my "barn moms." Finally he let go after having his
hands on my neck. He gave me my ticket and I walked like a beaten dog to
the tack room where I bawled my brains out. One of my very supportive barn
moms came in to sit with me and talk to me. Thankfully she was a psych
minor. I couldn't find my friend, as it turned out she cleaned all my
stalls for me that day. Talk about a great bud. When her mother came to
pick her up she was trying hard not to cry but the tears were in her eyes.

After seeing this the whole barn was concerned. My mom had been talking to
her mom for a while as I planning to move out, but hadn't told my father
out of fear. The last week of school was soo scary and my mom was talking
to my buds mom trying to let me stay with them for the last week to keep my
safe. Well my dad found about all of it and legally he had to give
permission I guess so I was stuck there. Her mother had recovered from
being alcoholic so he didn't want me there. The last week of school I
gritted my teeth and focused on my horse. Finally on father's day I moved
out. He tried to guilt me by saying it was so awful of me to move out on
father's day, I didn't bat an eye.

I now live with my mother and her GF. I'm still healing from it all. The
bruises on my body left long ago the scares on my soul are here. Life still
isn't easy I think about things most kids don't dream of. I think thoughts
most kids don't. I've developed a lot of traits I don't like from this
whole thing and I'm working on them the best I can but it is sooo hard.

Happy now? Now everyone knows everything there is to me pretty much. You
can see why once here I relax and goof off a bit. I just wanna be a friggin
kid for a change. My older brother and I both were made to grow up too fast.

As for no one following the rape posts, belive me I was going to, but my
friend was just raped and I am still coping with it.

Geez, now that I look at this I left out a lot, oh well.

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>
> *bigevilgrin*

C'mon, luv, have atcha...



> I find it very hard to beleive that you would read usenet over irc and yet
> not miss substance in posts. Yes, fun and in jokes are grand, but at this
> particular second in time, there is *nothing else*, and some people get
> easily annoyed by in-jokes. I always hated them when I was in high
> school. (that was the last time I had to put up with them) I was usually
> left out, but couoldn't see why I wanted to be in.... they were pretty
> mindless....

"Fair is Foul and Foul is Fair." Shakespeare wrote that, as I'm sure
you know. But do you know what he meant? He meant that what one person
may see as bad, another might quite like. Let me give you a fitting
anology.

You see some of my and other posts as nothing more than fluff. That's
fine. There are others, though, that see many of my posts as fun and
quite enjoy them. Therefore, the "I don't like it so take it away"
attitude won't work in this scenario. I come here to post and have fun
and meet with people I enjoy. If in the process I adopt one or two,
talk about Wolverine to another and show a fourth how to drink coffee
and bounce, well then that's just fine. Because there are plenty of
people interested in what I have to say...even if you're not.

Now I hope that analog and Shakespearian discussion isn't quite as
mindless as you might think me capable of...

> maybe your standards are too low.

Maybe...or maybe yours are too high.



> I'm complaining about old blood and new blood letting their fingers run
> away without them. Usenet is a public area, everyone shares the same. If
> we use it all the time posting everyuthign wiwhitch doesn't necessarily
> apply to anyone, then it gets crowded, dirty, and some people can't see.

Everything I post applies to SOMEONE, and just about every time applies
to multiple someones. What's dirt to you might be gold to someone else.

> It *should* be a general rule to not post something unless you thinkk that
> it holds something for most everybody- be it topic, tone of post, ideas,
> whatever. In jokes are cool if they are funny or if everyone is in on
> them. "hehhehheh remember that 8thing* we did?" isn't constructive to
> anyone.

Most everybody? Ok, HOW MANY of us live in a certain area and want to
know about clubs? Not many...a few in each area...but it's ok to post
those. How many of us have been raped? Not many of us, and condolences
to those who have, but it's ok for that too. You mean to tell me that I
should know the interests of EVERY person on this group, so I can
quickly go through my super-net.goth database and be sure that what I'm
about to say is of interest to 50% or more of the people? That's
impossible. I'll have to make do hoping that what I say is of interest
to a few or more good people...not "most everybody."



> All we see of a person is their "usenet" life. If that person chooses not
> to show us all the good stuff that's there, well for fuck's sake, I'm
> going to assume there's nothing else there.

Your life's experiences IRL up to the point in time your posting will
dictate many things about your state of mind, capabilities, ideas and
personalities.


> We don't all have killfiles.

I know...I don't. And I don't like them much anyway.



> This is a public forum, for public conversation.what is said should be
> made to include *everyone*, and then people can choose to ignore it as
> they see fit.

I can NOT include everyone in everything I post. Would you be
interested in my talking about Wolverine? (taking a recent example
here). Probably not...and I figured that...but there are plenty who
are...one can NOT please all of the people all of the time.

Now, indeed, we ignore some threads, but somethings are
> just rediculous: we would flame people if a bunch of masonites came in and
> started taking up 50% of the group talking about how cool manson is,
> because more people than those few couoldn't give a flying fuck about manson.

Would you? I wouldn't. Not unless they were actually trolling...which
I am NOT doing. I was referenced as one once...I've proved my point
that I am not. I'd use the "Mark Read" button.

> So when one posts 30 msgs a day in two threads about something completely
> insubstantial that you can't get in on if you missed the first two posts,
> a large n8umber of people are going to get *really irritated*

Who says you can't get in on it if you miss the first post or two?
That's what quoting's for.



> that predates most of us.... ask dragoness or oddly. actually, it might
> have *been* dragoness or lady b. :)

Yeah, could be. I'll ask Lady B. about it.



> a personal jab, pan: would you please stop using such typical
> coloquialisms? reading phsases liek "oh wait, I forgot..." and "...could
> you tell?" becomes redundant after you've read them for three years....

Possibly...but not everyone's been here for three years. And I don't
use them excessively. I thought it was well placed. Well, can't please
all of the people all of the time, can you m'luv?



> Yes it does. It's called screening. We're pretentious fucks, or, at
> least, I am. I love new people, but only if they are intelligent,
> constructive people. I don't have 98% of the world's population because
> they are mean to me, I hate them because they just aren't very useful
> human beings.

I have plenty of uses for 98% of the population. Someone's gotta mow
the lawn and take out the garbage you know...

I don't consider myself pretentious either. Everyone gets a chance...if
you suck, try something else before I boot you. But I'm not going to
roast people because they said "Hi." I'm going to roast people for
posting binaries, or personal ads, or something like that.


> Meanwhile, I suspect tmost people on this newsgroup *are* worth the cost
> of their making, I just want to *see* it, otherwise I'm going to give up
> and assume that they suck like the rest of this fucked up world. I'm sick
> of putting up with people who waste bandwidth and take over threads when I
> don't feel a thing from them...

Ok, let me get this straight. If you don't feel a think for the thread,
it's a waste of bandwidth?

they've never posted anything moving,
> they've never gave me anything new to think about, they've never made me
> laugh, or cry, or smile even. They are just *sitting* there using more
> emotes than words.

Well, I'll have you know I haven't used a single emoticon in this entire
post.

> WHY??!?!?!??

Ask them...



> and also meanwhile, Isshould clarify that I'm perfectly aware that this
> happens (this degradation of alt.gothic) all the time. Like every two
> months. Of course it'll get beter. it always does. But every time it
> falls in a hole, we loose at leat one good person because they've just
> given up.... at this point in my net.life, I love far too many of the
> people here to isk any of them leaving me.... I couldn't bear that.... I'm
> going to do my damndest to keep 'em here....

Then you do that...try talking to the ones giving up. Flaming the
perkies won't make the oldsters come back.

Bradley W Zimmerman

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Marcus P...@idt.net

> Charlotte Ashley wrote:
> > I sorta hoped it would progress into a delightful lot of squashing,
> > flaming and beating, with bitter old heros coming to reclaim sacred
> > ground. Uh, I'm not getting lucky on this one.
>

> So you mean to tell me that's it's badBADbad for a good thread to
> degenerate into fluff, but it is goodGOODgood for a good thread to
> degenerate (yes, FUCKING DEGENERATE, not get better) into a bunch of
> petty insults over stupid shit? I don't see much difference between the
> two, except for their motives...fluff being designed to get laughs,
> flames being designed to get anger. That's all...but it's ok for you
> guys to come flaming halfway across any thread you like, right, but I
> can't say, "Hey, anyone else have Starship?"

i think i've figured it out....
it's not that there's too much fluff, it's that the fluff is
BAD fluff. witty comebacks have degenerated into one-liners
which can be seen as "me toos." if you like Starship, fucking
say WHY you like Starship. tell a funny or pointed anecdote
that features a Starship song, create a conspiracy about
Grace Slick and alien abductions... JUST DON'T EXCERPT 60
LINES OF TEXT SIMPLY TO ADD THE WORDS "BEAT STARSHIP..."

hey, i'm blessed w/ free ethernet, but i understand
the frustration of those who have to PAY for those
fucking 60 line excerpts....

> > So I have two big things to say:
> >

> > 1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise

> > when a thread as run dry. Learn not to post one liners unless they are


> > actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the
> > fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor
> > thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I don't
> > care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30
msgs of it.
>

> I want the terms "absent-brained perky nature" re-explained. Does
> absent-brainedness begot perkiness? Hrm? And how would you know what's
> funny, m'dear? In your state of mind, you're sense of humor has gone
> south for the winter.

oh bullshit.
this newsgroup is escapist fantasy, but for many
of us it is escapism from the needer-brained rectal scrapings
who discovered Urban Decay earlier that afternoon; from people
who intelligence is derived from their textbooks and not life
experience; from "feminist artists" who are doing so simply because
their last boyfriend "wasn't receptive to their spiritual needs;"
from that guy who hangs around on the fringes of your group uninvited,
dully snorting at jokes he doesn't understand and throws in
inappropriate comments thinking he'll seem witty; from those dim bulbs
we are forced to socialize with in our class or work environments.

we want our fantasy back.
we want our intelligent banter back.
we want our sarcasm related to.
we want our pains and frustrations understood.
we want advice from like-minded folks who aren't
going to misinterpret our problems to be far less
than them being snubbed by that idiot at the check-out counter.
we want the one public forum a few of us have back.

it's not like i'm going to start harping about "the good
old days" where EVERYONE who posted had a Ph.D and a certificate
from the School of Social Interaction, because that particular
fantasy never existed. When i started posting this place was
truly a fucking oven, competing with the likes of Petro, Macross,
Poppy, Ron Carrier, Lady B, and loads of others who blasted
people off the group. it was oppressive, but fun in an intellectual
way, but there was still jokes and jabs and goofiness, and yes,
fluff - and people were even then talking about the "good old days.
such is life - the counterpoint is needed. a year or two
later, the poles balanced themselves and this was MY favorite
time - and even then people were bitching about the group going
to the dogs. now the pendulum has swun to the far left where yes,
the writing has gone far downhill and the Fluff index is at >80%

natural laws state that it will swing back, but we have to do
something about it - ie. posting relevant shit.

oh, and as a note those damn religion flamewars never change anyone's
mind, so fuck 'em. they're not worth it and they pop up every 8
months. yes i'm sick of them....

> And if you look at the "CD collection" thread...really LOOK at it, don't
> just mark it this time...maybe you'll see that there are more than a
> half dozen people involved in the conversation. And I intend on
> continuing it until such time as there aren't any people left on the
> thread. It's still a discussion. Just because it's a discussion YOU
> don't like, does NOT mean it's a bad discussion.

so change the fucking title!!!
it IS a fun thread, but when there are two radically
different threads under the same name, try to keep the
title relevant for those of us not marking it as "read"
it's called "courtesy."

> > 2) to those of you of the old, grizzled, intellectual nature, post shit.
> > Post lots and lots and lots, and at least try to balance out all that
> > goddamn fluff. Don't leave and give up, make your own fun. And flame.
> > As far as I'm concerned at this poitn in time, gratuitous fluff is now on
> > my to-die list. I don't care if it isn't technically "trolling", as far
> > as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never posted a goddamn thing
> > to earn flame retardant clothing.
>

> Oh is it? Well I don't intend on changing. I intend on posting an NGD
> update, then maybe posting a journal entry, then advising a question,
> THEN POSTING SOME FUCKING FLUFF. Feel free to flame whatever you like.
> Hell, maybe it will make you feel better and get rid of all your current
> pissiness. And >I< think I posted enough to earn some flame-retardant
> underwear. And >others< think that. And, frankly, if >you< don't, I
> honestly don't give a shit at this point.

yo, GoatBoy, she's not talking to YOU!!!!
YOU are in the clear, it's the 60% of "aol.com" that
is infringing on our net time with the dimple wank.

> I'm not pissed (alright...maybe a little)...I'm stating my side. I
> don't agree wholeheartedly with your side, chances are you won't agree
> 100% with mine...which is what it's all about after all, isn't it? And
> I'm going to GIGGLE my ass off if I feel like it. Then I'll pick it up
> and go home. I'm not going to leave the newsgroup, or post less, or
> start checking that I use intellectual fucking vocabulary before
> clicking SEND...fuck that. I'm in some good conversations, some fluffy,
> some religious, some about this or that and the other thing. And I'm
> not about to start changing the way I post because of things like this.
> I do NOT waste bandwidth with what I say...others show interest. And
> NOR do I troll, as is quite fucking obvious. That's what's under
> it...THAT'S my substance. You want a different substance? Fine.
>
> Pan - Fluff THIS!

there's an old saying that goes "if there's a possibility
that they're not talking about you in particular, it's
best to listen until you hear your name."

in conclusion:
-There's a few FAQs - read all of them before you post.
-lurk a while (a few weeks) until you post
-don't post one-liners to serious conversations
-keep an open and active mind
-defend your territory

and at no time did i say "Marcus Pan."


--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-THE RAPHRAT-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
rap...@CMU.EDU -=http://theratsnest.res.cmu.edu=-
PGH.NYC.industrial.goth.punk.artmajor.nihilist.wHATEver
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Editor-in-Chef: HAVEN magazine-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--

http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~xyd/3-dpub/haven.html

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Albatross wrote:

> and there are others who could be fine posters
> if they would post less and think a little more about what they do
> post...

And that would be me. And I understand, and I will attempt to do that.
Just like I did last time you criticized me on something. I do take
your advice when it's merited. And I believe it is merited now. So I
will do my best...

Bradley W Zimmerman

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to


Cymb...@buffnet.net

> FireyDemon wrote:

> > All this learning in my absent mind aaaaaach! HELP!!! Some damn good
> > threads have come from random thoughts yur just jealous you don't have cool
> > random thoughts good nuff to be threads.
>

> Very true! And who really gives a crap if they're meaningless? We

> shouldn't have to be morbid and serious all the time.

oh jesus fuck...
don't you people listen?
it's not about being "goth" or "morbid" or "serious!"
i wouldn't want to be here if that was all it was,
but currently it's mostly stupid fucking *bounce*y
shit, and that's just as bad.

you don't seem to understand that though...
too bad....

Bradley W Zimmerman

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 11-Sep-97 Re: Here's the Line, I
Dare.. by Alba...@drizzle.com

> > > conversation when you walk in a coffeehouse? No, I don't think so. Who
> > > was it that attributed alt.gothic to an online coffee house? I don't
> >
> > that predates most of us.... ask dragoness or oddly. actually, it might
> > have *been* dragoness or lady b. :)
>

> Eric Oehler. The Dragoness sig'd im.
>


nope.
Eric credited that to Jilli in his Permission article.
if memory serves me correctly, which it rarely does,
i think it was either Vlad or Voron back in '93....

Bradley W Zimmerman

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to


First off,
it's one thing to defend your friends.
to do so at the expense of others who were trying to make
a point is a risky situation. you should be prepared for the
consequences. Blind Faith gets you nowhere but embarrassed.

but then again, these are just words on a screen, right?

Firey...@aol.com
> > Charlotte Ashley
> >'kay, here's the thing:
>
> Thas good but hold just a sec k? Before you begin I'd like to add we
> stopped the whole "I dare you thing" a long ass time ago, like in 3rd grade
> that got lame.

want to know why this reply is going to be shorter
than it could've been? because unlike you i don't feel
the need to tear apart a post line by line and throw in
insipid comments that serve as nothing but childish
character assassination. if you're going to yank someone's
pants down and mock them publicly, make sure your fingers
don't get caught in their zipper....
you'll look like you're trying to give them a blow job.

<snip>

> >it's unsettling, I want to go
> >to sleep. I hae to work at 7 am, for christ's sake. I'm generally
> >annoyed that I should have to be worrying about this at all.
>
> Please do if something this little unsettles you. You're not the only one
> that works and I used to get up at 5 to be at school for my 7 am class and
> didn't leave till 4 because of newspaper and then worked after so um, get
> off it. Really I don't see why you are "worrying" about "this".

hmm... 4 lines spent flaming 2.5 lines of text
which was inconsequential to the remaining 98% of the
original text. perhaps i should blast you for using the
word "and" in your sentence.....

translation: learn to be more picky.

> >There's this sorta tension on alt.gothic, and f you didn't notice, raise
> >your hand *right now* and I'll send the Large Men to kill you as soon as
> >possible. We have something of a bittergoff-perkygoff rift.
>
> ::raises her hand:: Tell them large men to fuck before they kill me I du
> wanna die a virgin. There's no rift cept the one you're causing.


...said the blind man at the lip of the elevator shaft....
are you actually so self-absorbed that you don't notice that
others here feel the same way? where was your *bounce*-riddled
ass when we were getting mail-bombed by alt.syntax-tactical?
maybe you should get back to trying to pick up guys on the
fluff threads...

> >Big Rift.
>
> Like the crack of your ass? (sorry I know that was low and lame but right
> now, I don't care I'm jest a fluff ball la dee da.

until this post you weren't one
of shining examples of annoying fucks.
remind me to send you a ClueCard - your
mastery of debate has me cowering in fear...


> >Getting Bigger Rift.
>
> Why? Did you shove yet another stick up it or something? Damnit thas not
> good for you!

if you realize that it was a "low and lame"
why are you dragging it out and wasting our time
on another excerpt? damn, puddinghead, you can't
even flame successfully... perhaps for your benefit
i'll continue this post in pottytalk.

"your butt smells."
is that better?

> >I sorta hoped it would progress into a delightful lot of squashing,
> >flaming and beating, with bitter old heros coming to reclaim sacred
> >ground. Uh, I'm not getting lucky on this one.
>

> Umm gee that's a real good thing. You must not be getting lucky here or
> anywhere else it seems.

hmm...sex life slam.
we've got a real winner here. lemme guess,
the second a troll pops up who says that "goths suck"
you cream your little black undies, because once again
you have the opportunity to unleash your staggering
command of the line "only if you ask nicely?"
wow... i'm impressed as all get out.

> >Instead, the bitter old heros are getting disgusted and are leaving.
> >Going away. Not promising to be back.
>
> Like um, who needs um anyway? Disgusted, geeez if you don't like a thread,
> simply don't frucking read it! Damn that is hard.

wow, great theory in concept,
but you and your likes seem to co-opt all the ones
we DO read. i'd stay out of your house, why do you
insist on invading ours and eating all the Funyuns?


> >So I have two big things to say:
>

> Someone alert the media! Wait, lemme guess. Two big things? hmm, not much
> of a clue so I can only guess your ass and your twat? Sorry I mean you
> don't play fair you give me one clue and expect me to guess.

your ass and your twat.
my ass and your face.
my cock and your mouth.
i see a reoccuring theme here...

> >1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise
> >when a thread as run dry.
>

> Geee, actually I'm an honors student with a high GPA and still a perkygoth
> and you as a goth should know far better than to generalize. And threads
> die when their time comes as we hope you will.

i really wanted to put this excerpt first,
simply so we could see what we were up against and so
that i personally could say a prayer for the future
of America....

> >Learn not to post one liners unless they are
> >actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the
> >fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor
> >thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I
> don't
> >care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30
msgs of it.
>

> All this learning in my absent mind aaaaaach! HELP!!! Some damn good
> threads have come from random thoughts yur just jealous you don't have cool
> random thoughts good nuff to be threads.

i'm just jealous that you were able to achieve "honor roll"
status and a "high GPA" with your cro-magnon english skills.

c'mon, just between you and me, who did you blow?

<snip>

<snip>

<snip>



> >They've proven to me that
> >they have something under the *bounce*ing.
>

> If I have to earn perkygothness thas fine but I got rights to it long ago
> you have no idea the hell I have walked that is my life. My body is 15 my
> mind is 20, that isn't phun at all, but it happens.

well dood man i am a 400 yr old vampire trapped in the body
of a 21 yr old college student. i spell "fun" with a "ph" because
yo-boy language is funny everyone tells me so and i look so cute
when i do it oh me oh my

reading your response to Charlotte's post is
like watching a Cocker Spaniel repeatedly run headfirst
into a door simply because the doorbell is ringing...

<snip>

> > I AM A PRETENTIOUS FUCK
>
> We figured that. You're one of those people who sits in the corner at
> clubs and pouts and sneers and stuff. The kind I wanna kick and ask em why
> they are even there?! Hellooo? If life sucks just sooo bad kill yurself or
> something.

and if you were to drop off there would be much wailing
and gnashing of teeth worldwide, right?

i'd rationalize more on what alt.gothic
has meant to some of us over the years,
but i doubt it would matter much to you.
do you even know WTF a "gundy" is?

> >and I don't think just being "nice" is a
> >good enough reason to be left unbaked.
>
> I think you GET OFF on flaming or something, which seems to be a very
> deeply root psych problem.

ooga! Mongo make smart word thing!!!!!

<snip>

<snip>

<snip>

> > I've been forgiving you here
> >because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it. You've
> >been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
> >that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
> >the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.


>
>
> The door is, umm where is the door. Well if all you wanna do is whine and
> snivel and complain you may as well leave and I don't wanna hear how much

> longer you've been here cuz that doesn't mean shit. Anyway, Like I said,
> alt.angst just a couple letters up the list. Oh perhaps may be if there
> isn't and alt.whiner you should see about creating it ya know? I think it's
> prime for you.

I'm still amazed you found this thread.
i guess you only noticed that it got replies
recently.....

> Sparkle & Fade
> ~Hi!!ary~


*yawn*
what was that about needless fluff?
damn bitch, i could spread you on a peanut butter
sandwich and not notice the difference.


> "Some Piglets have it, some donkeys don't." Eeyore
> <3 Ich liebe mein PaPa PAN <3

damn, that reminds me,
i have German to do.....

Urisk

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

(bag...@mindspring.com) Exiled enlightened us with:

> *cough* Ahem, Sin's Chylde, there is no need for the flaming verbiage.
> I am certain [quite certain] that this entire issue can be resolved in
> a peaceful frame of mind, and that anger and frustration will do
> nothing more but lengthen the process.

What process? I don't know what society you live in, but here, it's almost
never that people come out of a disagreement, shaking hands, one side
saying, gee, I guess you were right...

You're be idealistic, here. I hate that.

It's all about self-expression, and sometimes "anger and frustration" are
what one feels...

--
~^v^~ ::: Urisk ::: ~^v^~
~^v^~< MailTo:jab...@vgernet.net >~^v^~
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/4997/

Ron the Hammer

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Allo!

CVS has asked me to step in and have a word.

You see it goes like this - so many people have got to the stage where
they're so worried about what category they fit into and spend so much
time and bandwidth proving it to themselves and their peer groups that
they have forgotten the common link between the two. Let's look at
the 'G' word shall we. All together now G-O-T-H.

It doesn't matter if you consider yourself to be a perkygoth (and I'm
in quite a lot of doubt that anyone remembers the original joke) other
posters may be classified or consider themselves mopey. I think, for
what the opinion of a grizzled 'shooters-and-motors' enforcer type
with bad tattoos and plenty of scar tissue is worth, that anyone who
can't laugh or anyone that will not cry needs some serious help - from
either a qualified shrink or an 11lb lump hammer.

If the two camps decide to come to blows, please expect to find the
SWE contingent standing in the middle of the battlefield lashing out
with blind fury at anyone who get's within range. So sort yourselves
out people, ask yourself why you need to post messages that only four
people will find interesting, if you can't provide a good enough reply
we'll send the boys round with socks full of sand.

Luv

Ron Hammer

--
Sexbat World Enterprises Legal Department

"Which ear do you like the best?"


Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Albatross (tpa...@drizzle.com) writes:
> Lady Greycat wrote:
>
>> But i really hope this rift thing is imagined or maybe excelerated
>> cause Charlotte is involved in it personally, because i would really
>> really hate to see alt.gothic.perky and alt.gothic.mopey. And gawd
>> knows the flame wars would get nasty if that ever happened.

That would never happen; it couldn't. it has nothing to do with perky or
mopey.... a lot of people have confused fluff with perk.... whatever....

.... please don't mention my name as if it's something special. my
involvement has nothing to do with anything.... if there were any number
other people here, you wouldn't know me from anyone else. fuck, even
filth looks good when you're swimming in shit, I suippose.... >
>

> The rift is between people who have been here a while, and made a sort
> of personal commitment to the group based on the quality of experience
> they got here, and seeming wave after wave of conversation that is
> absolutely needless in this sort of forum.
>


*snicker* Take it to alt.cuddle.... ;)

> isnt a few silly, pointless posts here and there. It is like wading
> through a swamp of this stuff. Every time a persons name appears here,
> he is contributing to the over-all feel of the group.
>

Re: ron's llast post.....


it seemed prophetic *at the time* We were having the same problem, not
as bad......


sorry I can't post more in depth, but my connection is too slow and I'm
getting disconnected before I can post anything long....


--
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bi284

Life is one big ink blot.

ka...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Marcus Pan (p...@idt.net) wrote:
(Haven't seen the original, so I have to work from Pan's response.)
: Charlotte Ashley wrote:
: >
: > 'kay, here's the thing:

(Snip)

: > There's this sorta tension on alt.gothic, and f you didn't notice, raise


: > your hand *right now* and I'll send the Large Men to kill you as soon as
: > possible. We have something of a bittergoff-perkygoff rift.

: > I sorta hoped it would progress into a delightful lot of squashing,


: > flaming and beating, with bitter old heros coming to reclaim sacred
: > ground. Uh, I'm not getting lucky on this one.

So, it's not the tension that bothers you, so much as the lack of
bitterness. You see the tension as the potential oncoming of a solution
for the annoyance the perkys are causing. Am I correct?

: > Instead, the bitter old heros are getting disgusted and are leaving.


: > Going away. Not promising to be back.

: So they give up. If they give up that easy, maybe they're not really
: "old heros" then.

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

: > So I have two big things to say:
: >
: > 1) to those of you of the absent-brained perky nature, learn to recognise
: > when a thread as run dry. Learn not to post one liners unless they are


: > actually funny. Learn to take in jokes to email. Learn to respect the
: > fact that not everyone in this newsgroup really wants to read every minor
: > thought that runs through your head. Post the relevant stuff. I don't
: > care what's in your cd collections, guys. At least, not after 30 msgs of it.

Good advice - for any. (In other words, said advice should not have had
the "perky nature" qualifier added to it.)

: > 2) to those of you of the old, grizzled, intellectual nature, post shit.

No. Do not post "shit." Bitter, grizzled (and even intellectual) shit is
still shit.

: > Post lots and lots and lots, and at least try to balance out all that
: > goddamn fluff. Don't leave and give up, make your own fun. And flame.
: > As far as I'm concerned at this poitn in time, gratuitous fluff is now on
: > my to-die list.

And what of non-gratuitous fluff? Or do you even recognize such?
Also, what of gratuitous bitterness?

: > I don't care if it isn't technically "trolling", as far


: > as I can see, a lot of the fluff-makers have never posted a goddamn thing
: > to earn flame retardant clothing.

As far as I can see, *no one* has earned flame-retardant clothing from
what they've posted in the past.
Not me (as I have no true past here,) not you, and not even whoever had
this ng created in the first place.

: > It's funny. I've always felt that one sortof had to *earn* perkiness.


: > Like, fluff and absent silliness were something you got away with if you'd
: > put in many long, hard intellectual and substantial hours. That's why I

: > adore some of the perkygoffs in this group. They've proven to me that


: > they have something under the *bounce*ing.

Perkiness is not something to "get away with;" not something that should
be forgiven for an elder, and chastised for the youth.
Neither is bitterness.
Both are things to be judged on their own merits.

: Who decides when I can bounce? >I< do.

I like that one. (Though, the question isn't one of when you can bounce,
but rather how much you should bounce in this sub-area of "public.")

: > Some of you have managed, and I don't know how, to make regular status
: > without ever posing a thing that contributed to the building of this
: > group. I AM A PRETENTIOUS FUCK and I don't think just being "nice" is a

And I hate pretentiousness. But don't go thinking it's only in the realm
of the bitter and vitriolic.
It's what causes the posting of shit. Whether it's perky shit, or bitter
shit. It's what allows the idea of "my shit is so good, it's not even
shit anymore."

You did get one thing right, though - being "nice" isn't in itself a good
enough reason to be spared the flames.
It's also not a good enough reason, in itself, to be flamed.

: > good enough reason to be left unbaked. This is, unfortunately, a warning.
: > I may not be a very good flamer, but I can loose some pretty good venom
: > when I need to. unless someone can give me a damn good reason why I
: > shouldn't, I'm going to start tearing apart people who post useless,
: > insubstantial fluff effective immediately.

Good. And when my opinion differs on that, I will step forward with it.
When it doesn't, I will either support you or not bother you.
Hopefully, though, someone will step forward and balance this by tearing
apart the useless, insubstantial mopey-shit. And we'll get all this
tension out of our systems, and hopefully get something meaningful here
again (bitter or perky - both have their place. Unless you want to
petition for a separate group for either the perkys or mopeys?)

: > If this gets 99% of the group pissed off at me, so be it. I ignore and
: > snub people like you in everyday life. I've been forgiving you here

Oh, good. It's a professional snubber, not just some amateur.
Changes nothing, except to make me feel a little better about choosing to
step up to this potential battle.

: > because I'm assuming that, as goths, there is substance under it. You've


: > been doing a pretty poor job of living up to that. Should it turn out
: > that I'm way off base, and there really and truely is't anything under all
: > the giggling, then I'm not sure I'd want to be welcome here anyway.

And if giggling is completely unacceptable here, then I have no use for
this place.

Kaos.
--
My paranoia is the natural result of my megalomania.
When your destiny is as great as mine,
someone's bound to be out to get you...
In chaos all things are possible.

Bradley W Zimmerman

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

wow...

i've been reading the replies to this thread for the
last 3.5 hours. It's honestly the most entertaining
read i've had on here in months....

thanx.
*grin*

Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

oddlystrange (pe...@obscure.org) writes:
> In article <341893...@ix.netcom.com>, sch...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>I currently goto Goth Clubs because I find it to be fun.
>>I dress in a way I hope blends in w/ the astedic(sp?) because that is
>>part of the enjoyment.
>>When/if it ever stops being fun I'm going to stop doing it and go do
>>something else that I find entertaining.
>
> the east coast branch office hereby dubs you with the official title of:
>
> perkygoff village court jester.

*cracks whip* Dance, boy, dance. ;)

>
> You'd be suprised at how many people on here (ie alt.gothic) fit the
> original definition of perkygoff without even knowing it. Charlotte,
> you're one of 'em if anything for making a stand like you did. Choas
> Control (there I said it) is another one for simply just sticking to his
> guns, although I would have to dub him the perkygoff village idiot, but
> that's a whole other matter.

:)

*I* always knew I was a perkygoff.

I'm slightly paranoid at being associated with people who bear the title
solely because they *bounce*, though.

although it would seem that that's okay, with company like oddly and jeol
and a.g. and .... well, maybe not choas control, though he is funny.... :)


leanan sidhe *wack wack bang* okay, I'm finishes.... if anyone doesn't
get it after this, I think I'm ready to say that sadly, it's their own
damn loss....

SiNs CHiLde

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

!
~*~ now falling into this shit ~*~


On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:11:07 -0400, Cymbeline <fl...@buffnet.net>
wrote:

>FireyDemon wrote:
>>
>> An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy
>> look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
>> and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?
>

>I think this calls for the whole family to give PapaPan a group hug


>*hugs Pan*. Come on guys.

*vomit*


>> If I have to earn perkygothness thas fine but I got rights to it long ago
>> you have no idea the hell I have walked that is my life. My body is 15 my
>> mind is 20, that isn't phun at all, but it happens.

More like your mind is 2. Give me a break! You're post was full of
childish insults and hardly any substance <As usual> *groan*

>Waaaaaaaaaaah!! There is another one stuck in a body 5 years too young
>for her!! I thought I was the only one! I always figured I was used in
>some kind of weird science experiment (like a lab-mouse) when I was

>little and it warped the growth of my brain to go faster than that of my
>body.

Perhaps , if this is a reocurring theme here, you both really *DO*
have the correct brain development? Think its a possibility??

>> What the hell is the point? Flaming only creates more fluff which makes
>> you my dear, a HYPOCRITE.
>

>You tell her sister!! Anyway, if she doesn't like what's being posted
>here, she can just move her damn arse on to another group.

Finally, those are both good points... though a bit regenerated...ah
well.

Ok thats enough of that.. maybe i should leave this pathetic excuse
for a thread alone for a bit.
-=SiNnEr=-
SiNsC...@aol.com

Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

SiNs CHiLde (pan...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
> HEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> CHARLOTTE ASHLEY!!!!
>
> Are you Fucking satisfied now???

You scared me for a minute there... I thought that "Hwy..." part was
supposed to satisfy me.... I'm glad there was more under it... ;)

> I swear!
> You've been trying to get people all up in arms for freaking ever, and
> it appears that you have *Finally* suceeded.
> *ugh* Just because YOU dont like something doesnt mean its not
> GOOD, and a world w/o FLuFF would be a SHITTY world to LIVE in! And I
> think you're childish NEED for perpetual FLAME wars is quite BoRiNg,
> since ACTUAL flamewars are derived from EMOTIONS or strong BELIEFS.
> Obviously *that* is something *You* are not deep enough to
> comprehend... does that classify you as a goFF w/no substance??

*sigh*

Okay. I don't have my post to refer to, but I suppose for the sake of my
defense (which I feel I don't really need, but hey, it's 7 am and I'm a
bit crotchety) I should like to add that I had something along these lines
to say about content:

I was hoping people would post more *content* and flame those who feel to
be *devoid* of it. I didn't say fkame all the perkygoffs. I asked if
people would be so kind to reach for depth, and then tagged the flaming
bit on the end as an extreme example of something to balance out the fluff.

I think the flaming bit seems to have rised and eaten up the point of the
post. :)

Go back. read it. In the meantime, read what kes and albatross said too.
and oddlystrange.

leanan sidhe

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Albatross wrote:
> Uh oh.

OH dear me.

> You just came down very hard on the wrong side of this little debate,
> ya little shit.

It's not your side, sir Albatross, so of course it's the wrong side.
Correct?

> So far, Pan boi has shown that he can
> post often, thats it. Charlotte's ability to think the way she can at
> her age is exceptional. I wouldnt hesitate for a moment using the word
> genius to describe her.

That, there just broke our little "truce" that I thought we had going.
I guess things that were discussed and said in a previous incident don't
mean much to you. Selective memory?

I was under the distinct impression that we came to a compromise
before. And it was a good one, until this new war started up. Of
course, you have to show your face because you felt the heat and you
wouldn't miss a good flame war, now would you? Oh dear no.

Oh, and on Charlotte, I happen to agree. And she knows that.

> Why look here. A pan of Pan! A Pan loaf!
> I think I've won the bread war.
> *breaks open loaf of pan*
> *babygoths fly away*
> Look! Magic! Four and twenty banalities, baked in the pie.
> Fly away baby blackbirds, fly away.

Pan loaf indeed. I don't think you've won the bread war. Hell, you
need a SENSE OF HUMOR to win the bread.wars. You have none of
that...every bone in your body is way too dark for you to have a sense
of humor anywhere. Oh, and blackbirds...not too gothic. To keep up
with the personality you're trying to convey here, might I suggest crows
or ravens?

I have no intention of leaving. Cope.

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to tpa...@drizzle.com

Albatross wrote:
> Since when is intellectual stimulation not fun?

I never said it wasn't fun. But it doesn't have to be highly
stimulating to BE fun.

> Hey Pan.
> *plonk*

Alright, whatever, I tried, see'ya. And thanks for my first plonk. I
suddenly feel somehow REAL now...funny how this plonk came before you
had the time to read what I said to Andru in e-mail about the whole
"dies" thing I mentioned. You might actually like. I showed you the
respect you deserved. Too fucking bad I can't get none of the same.

Michael Handler

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

In <3418D3...@idt.net>,
Marcus Pan <p...@idt.net> wrote:

> > maybe your standards are too low.
>
> Maybe...or maybe yours are too high.

No such thing. Feel free to go on record as encouraging mediocrity, though.

> Then you do that...try talking to the ones giving up. Flaming the
> perkies won't make the oldsters come back.

It's not the 'perkies', it's 'zero contents'. But I think you're wrong in
this regard, too; a chance to roast the *~*lurve'n'sparklies*~* crowd just
might draw some of 'em back in, h0h0h0.

--
Michael Handler <han...@sub-rosa.com>

Urisk

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

(p...@idt.net) Marcus Pan enlightened us with:

> Blend in my ass. It's quite obvious to a lot of people. If they blend
> in, how do you know what to skip? Sorry I don't want to discuss Kafka
> all fucking day.

I understand that. But do you *ever* want to discuss Kafka? Have you ever
even read his work? (the Metamorphosis doesn't count, unless you read it for
pleasure)

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Michael Handler wrote:

> It's not the 'perkies', it's 'zero contents'. But I think you're wrong in
> this regard, too; a chance to roast the *~*lurve'n'sparklies*~* crowd just
> might draw some of 'em back in, h0h0h0.

Ok, zero content. Noted. If you want to flame though, feel free. They
can take care of themselves I'm sure.

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Lady Greycat wrote:
> I only mentioned your name because you were the original poster...:)

Why'd you mention mine then? :(

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Urisk wrote:

> I understand that. But do you *ever* want to discuss Kafka? Have you ever
> even read his work? (the Metamorphosis doesn't count, unless you read it for
> pleasure)

Actually, no. I read more sci-fi where you read the philosiphy. I read
more Heinlien and Asimov. :)

cyhi...@pipeline.com

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

In article <5va7d8$j...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
bi...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charlotte Ashley) wrote:

> *bigevilgrin*
>
> Marcus Pan (p...@idt.net) writes:
> > Andrew L. Garman wrote:
> >> The group isn't going to hell...it's there...big, big difference...
> >> pointing out a decadence and doomsaying...
> >
> > Maybe by your standards...I think the group is doing just fine.

> I find it very hard to beleive that you would read usenet over irc and yet
> not miss substance in posts. Yes, fun and in jokes are grand, but at this
> particular second in time, there is *nothing else*, and some people get
> easily annoyed by in-jokes. I always hated them when I was in high
> school. (that was the last time I had to put up with them) I was usually
> left out, but couoldn't see why I wanted to be in.... they were pretty
> mindless....

Hmmm... at first, I thought this was a perky- vs mopey-goth thread,
which I stay out of because (a) they recur every year with predictable
monotony, and (b) I'm Not A Goth. (For those of you who don't know
me from before: I'm gothic, but not a goth. Comprendez?)

However, I see this a rant about content, or lack thereof, on alt.g.
Yes, the content levels have gotten dismally low, to the point
where I stopped reading for a while... the alt.gothic.guns.guns.guns
thread resurrection and the religion debates got me reading again.
Not posting as much as of yore, but then, they expect me to *work*
for a living these days. Long, thoughtful posts take TIME.

> > conversation when you walk in a coffeehouse? No, I don't think so. Who
> > was it that attributed alt.gothic to an online coffee house? I don't
>
> that predates most of us.... ask dragoness or oddly. actually, it might
> have *been* dragoness or lady b. :)

But the real reason for answering this post is the above historical
question. No, it wasn't me. From the depths of my sigfile archive comes
this:

"Alt.gothic - sort of like going out for coffee with 3000 of
your weird friends." -- Eric Oehler


> Yes it does. It's called screening. We're pretentious fucks, or, at
> least, I am. I love new people, but only if they are intelligent,
> constructive people. I don't have 98% of the world's population because
> they are mean to me, I hate them because they just aren't very useful
> human beings.

Read the "Tired" thread for my take on the worthwhileness of human
beings in general.

> and also meanwhile, Isshould clarify that I'm perfectly aware that this
> happens (this degradation of alt.gothic) all the time. Like every two
> months. Of course it'll get beter. it always does. But every time it
> falls in a hole, we loose at leat one good person because they've just
> given up.... at this point in my net.life, I love far too many of the
> people here to isk any of them leaving me.... I couldn't bear that.... I'm
> going to do my damndest to keep 'em here....

As I said, I leave for short periods when the drivel level gets too high.
I can't stay away, because I find that people stop writing me when I
stop posting and writing them, and I like getting e-mail. ;-)

Take care.

--dragoness

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

cyhi...@pipeline.com

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

In article <19970912054...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,

firey...@aol.com (FireyDemon) wrote:
>
> Leanan, allow me to step up and explain myself to you as I think you are
> missing a few essential points.

> C) Think I have it easy and I'm into the goth scene to piss off mom and


> dad? Well, I'll tell you right now that is plenty far from true. My parents
> got divorced after 23 yrs of a crappy marriage. I sat up every night and

[snip]

*Hugs*

Excuse me, I'm crying. No one should treat their children like this.
No one. And it happens all too often. I do not understand why;
how can anyone hate their children so? I tear myself apart worrying
that I'm not being a decent parent to my daughter; I want the best
for her, but I'm afraid that my own madness has made me a less
than wonderful role-model. How can someone be so selfish
and uncaring or malicious as to hurt their child like this?

There are far too many wounded souls here... I wish that I had the
power to love and comfort you all. Including, at times, myself.

Firey, may God give you strength, and His wondrous love that
heals all scars of the soul.

cyhi...@pipeline.com

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

In article <19970912012...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
firey...@aol.com (FireyDemon) wrote:

Little one, you have succeeded in conveying "I'm still in High School"
with this post. I've rarely seen such a mess of immature, petty sniping
on alt.gothic, even from trolls. Bitter and hurt you may be, but you do
no one, including yourself, any good by taking it out on bystanders.

The cold hard world will judge you by your words and deeds, not
your intentions. Consider that, and learn.

> An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy
> look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
> and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?

Marcus Pan is quite capable of fighting his own battles. Let him
decide who he wishes to flame, and who he wishes to cut some
slack. Jumping into someone else's fight without asking them
if they even want the fight can be, shall we say, embarassing?

> Charlotte Ashley master of all things gothy and underworld ruler of


> alt.gothic (or so it NOW seems) wrote:
>
> >'kay, here's the thing:
>

> Thas good but hold just a sec k? Before you begin I'd like to add we
> stopped the whole "I dare you thing" a long ass time ago, like in 3rd grade
> that got lame.

Leanan Sidhe apparently got fed-up at certain aspects of alt.gothic
that have been bothering her (AND others, I might add) for a while,
and vented. Possibly some portion of her rant was off-target, as
much of it has been promptly misunderstood. Part of it, however,
was worth considering.

Leanan is a thoughtful, interesting person on Usenet and in E-mail;
you just treated her like you were the Most Popular Chick in the
High School Clique and she was the unpopular freak-target.
You also seemed to be patting yourself on the back for your
own cleverness. I don't know whether you intended all this
sophomoric pettiness, but that is certainly what you sucessfully
conveyed to the rest of us. Do I need to mention that this
doesn't testify very well to your maturity or interest-level?

Don't let scars keep you from growing up.

Albatross

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Stained wrote:


> Yes, there
> could be any number of far more interesting threads going on here. How
> about instead of bitching at one another, we all try and start something
> worth reading?

This is the point I was hoping to see.
The seeming never ending inanity is only half the problem. The other
half of the problem is that many of us, myself included, have taken a
lassez-faire attitude. Like everything else, the responsibility falls on
individuals.

> And instead of following through on that itchy trigger
> finger and flaming everything you don't like, we all try and practice a
> little bit of tolerance and patience.

Some of us have been tolerant and patient for a long time.
This has been simmering for a while.

> None of us have any more right to
> be here than anyone else,

And here I disagree. Everyone has equal right to be here? Maybe. But
along with that right comes a responsibility to see that the group
remains vital. Posting dozens of posts that are absolutely thoughtless,
especially when youre a person who is being emulated, saps the vitality
of the group. At that point, I think the right comes into question.

> and each and every one of us should be
> dedicated to making this place *interesting*.


Exactly.
This is my final word on the whole shebang.


A

Tom S.

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Wendy Wanders, Subject 117 wrote:
>
> In article <34184B...@ix.netcom.com>, "Tom S." <sch...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > Screw the flame-retardant underwear, I want kerosine-soaked underwear.
> > If the expression of my own oppnions is enough to send someone into a
> > whiny-pissy rant then that just more points for me.
>
> Are you actually trying to say that if your opinions piss people off enough to
> rant, that you're somehow better? Gads that's annoying and stupid. "I'm more
> annoying than yoouuuuu are." Grow up, this is as annoying and unpleasant as
> people who try to convince you how weird and freaky they are. Maybe I missed
> something and you were making a joke of some sort?

I was part joking part serious. My comments were aimed more at people
who are so closed minded that they fly into rage whenever anyone has the
audacity to express their own oppnions.
I don;t expect people to agree w/ me and how i think, but it does irk me
when the only way they can handle a difference of oppnion is yell and
shout like everything they say is the gosspel.

Pope Tom s. of the C.o.G.
etc...

SPAM.hotmail.com

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:31:02 -0400, Marcus Pan <p...@idt.net> wrote:

>Lady Greycat wrote:
>> I only mentioned your name because you were the original poster...:)
>
>Why'd you mention mine then? :(

Oh cause I've seen the I LOVE PAPA-PAN!! Posts...:) I figured that
might be one of the things she was talking about. Not that I mind, I
think you are an essental poster to Alt.gothic, and I think if people
want to be in your fan club, so be it. I skip the posts, even tho alot
of times, it's in some thread I was really interested in, and then we
get the 20 or so PAN RULES! posts, and your replys, I tend to stop
reading the thread after that. But whatever, I'm not bitchin, I just
skip it.

Greycat
<Who thinks Pan is a nice guy, and doesn't deserve sooo much flack,
but would also enjoy not seeing 50+ fluff posts a day>
____________________________________________________________________________
(Remove NO SPAM before responding)

"Black as midnight, black as pitch, blacker than the foulest witch!"


xen...@ix.netcom.com

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

cyhi...@pipeline.com wrote:
>
> In article <19970912054...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> firey...@aol.com (FireyDemon) wrote:
> >
> > Leanan, allow me to step up and explain myself to you as I think you are
> > missing a few essential points.
>
> > C) Think I have it easy and I'm into the goth scene to piss off mom and
> > dad? Well, I'll tell you right now that is plenty far from true. My parents
> > got divorced after 23 yrs of a crappy marriage. I sat up every night and
> [snip]
>
> *Hugs*
>
> Excuse me, I'm crying. No one should treat their children like this.
> No one. And it happens all too often. I do not understand why;
> how can anyone hate their children so? I tear myself apart worrying
> that I'm not being a decent parent to my daughter; I want the best
> for her, but I'm afraid that my own madness has made me a less
> than wonderful role-model. How can someone be so selfish
> and uncaring or malicious as to hurt their child like this?
>
> There are far too many wounded souls here... I wish that I had the
> power to love and comfort you all. Including, at times, myself.
>
> Firey, may God give you strength, and His wondrous love that
> heals all scars of the soul.

It's a "me, too" post, but fuck it. I second everything Dragoness
said.

I, too, am a mother, and I, too, worry about not being a good mother due
to the sometimes fragile state of myself. But I could never live with
myself if I abused my child like that.

Hillary, sometimes, to be honest, you've annoyed me, but sometimes you
make a lot of sense. And your post has helped me to understand you a
little better. I can't begin to imagine how difficult it must be for
you to keep up the happy front and trudge on, but I am proud of you for
being able to do it. It takes a lot of strength, as I'm sure I don't
need to tell you.

I don't have any great wisdom or sage advice to give, but I can offer my
sympathy and an open ear if you ever need such.

-Kali Nichta
--
~Kali Nichta's Page of Crap: http://members.tripod.com/~KaliNichta
~Njorl's Hovel: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/4546
~Casa de Liam: http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Glade/3365
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read." -Grouch Marx

Urisk

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

(p...@idt.net) Marcus Pan enlightened us with:
> Lady Greycat wrote:
> > I only mentioned your name because you were the original poster...:)
>
> Why'd you mention mine then? :(

Maybe because to some, you tend to be the epitome of "zero content"...

--
~^v^~ ::: Urisk ::: ~^v^~
~^v^~< MailTo:jab...@vgernet.net >~^v^~

c h a o s . c o n t r o l
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/4997/

Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Marcus Pan (p...@idt.net) writes:


> Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>
> Maybe...or maybe yours are too high.


I am what we call an "intellectual snob". I read alt.gothic because it is
the only place on the web that I've found that I find stimulating in every
way I need. intelllectual, emotional, otherwise.

I love this group because I am in constant awe of a llot of it's
participants.

All the people I am in awe of, short of a few straglers, have left. There
is nothing left here for me except light conversation and giggling, which
I see enough of watching beverly hills 90210. If I should really need
giggling and light conversation, I can go to irc or better still, go hang
out with some real life friends.There's no sense in me paying $30 a month
for what I have living a few doors down.

alt.gothic is *special*, something I have no replacement for in real life.
I need it as a stimulant. It's the only one.

I stay now because yes, there are still quite a few people I love to read
here. New and old. I lament because it's less, of course. I panic
because I'm afraid it will become *more* less. We no longer attract the
intellectual tyupes. They pass us over because, at a quick glance there's
not a lot of content here.


If you do really feel it is necessary to convert alt.gothic into a haven
for people seeking only light entertainment, then I'll leave and watch tv.
it's cheaper. fuck knows I'm a starving student and shouldn't be here
anyway. :)

If I wasn't so damn adicted to some of these people I would leave. But
alas and woe *hand to forhead ;)* I am slave to my emotions and
father-complex, I cannot leave them. :)

Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Albatross (tpa...@drizzle.com) writes:


> FireyDemon wrote:
>>
>> An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy
>> look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
>> and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?
>

> Why look here. A pan of Pan! A Pan loaf!
> I think I've won the bread war.

*snort*


LOL! Now *that* is truely funny.


leanan sidhe (hee hee....like a pun only not....)

Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

OrchydNoir (orchy...@aol.com) writes:
>>From: Albatross <tpa...@drizzle.com>
>
>> adds assorted babygoths,
>> tosses the concoction in the oven.
>
> <raises hand>
>
> Erm, excuse me..
>
> I don't mean to interrupt this
> flame war, but I've something to say..
>

I should agree with you. I'm sorry guys, most of you I don't mind....
narnia, you, orchid, and sin, I honestly think you have potential....
okay, you hate me but I do not you.... ;)


if I missed any, I apologise.... I never read that .sig..... though I know
a few of them are on my blacklist...


leanan sidhe

Stained

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to Bradley W Zimmerman

Bradley W Zimmerman wrote:

> reading your response to Charlotte's post is
> like watching a Cocker Spaniel repeatedly run headfirst
> into a door simply because the doorbell is ringing...

ROTFL!!

Not choosing sides in any way here, but that was one of the most
brillant lines I've ever heard. I dragged Greg in from the other room to
read it, and now the two of us can't stop laughing. Absolutely
priceless.

Brad, you rock baby!

Sheryl

FireyDemon

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Thanks to all who actually read this and saw me for me. Thanks you for
your words of comfort. I'm sure you ladies are fine mothers. Love your
children and for everything they do wrong, try to find something they do
right, that is what I was taught to do with my horse and he responded very
nicely, only wish someone taught my dad that. Always ask, then tell,
another horse thing I learned, pity you all can't ride my horse, these
theories helped me train more than any technique I know. Hugs are free and
cure most that ails. We stress too. Ask us how are day was, we'll warn you
if ours sucked, return the favor. Sometimes, we need "doctors appts" <hint
hint> at random. So feel free to leave work early, drag us from school for
some time together for a movie. <giggle> Never assume because as you know,
assume has three parts Ass-u-me. Talk to us, we have things to say. It may
take a while to get us to open up but sometimes relying on our friends
doesn't help as much as you do. Geez I could go on a while, but you get the
idea. You may not be a perfect role model, but we aren't perfect either.
The ONE most important thing, never yell at us, nothing comes from yelling.
Nothing.

To those of you who could not bother to read my last post and continue you
to go off on me without the least idea of what is going on when I took the
time to explain, I'm ignoring your lame words.

Sparkle & Fade
~Hi!!ary~ Through tears
"Some Piglets have it, some donkeys don't." Eeyore
Lonliness is temporary, emptiness is forever...
<3 Ich liebe mein PaPa PAN <3


Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Marcus Pan (p...@idt.net) writes:


> Albatross wrote:
>> Why look here. A pan of Pan! A Pan loaf!
>> I think I've won the bread war.

>> *breaks open loaf of pan*
>> *babygoths fly away*
>> Look! Magic! Four and twenty banalities, baked in the pie.
>> Fly away baby blackbirds, fly away.
>
> Pan loaf indeed. I don't think you've won the bread war. Hell, you
> need a SENSE OF HUMOR to win the bread.wars. You have none of
> that...every bone in your body is way too dark for you to have a sense
> of humor anywhere. Oh, and blackbirds...not too gothic. To keep up
> with the personality you're trying to convey here, might I suggest crows
> or ravens?

Pan, no offence but....welll...


it *was* fucking funny. *snicker* won the bread war.... heheh, that was
good....


leanan sidhe (this was a no no post. 'cause it's a waste of bandwidth.
But I'm just too impressed. That was the second funnyasfuck thing I've
read in the last week. I'm floating)

B J Kuehl

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

leanan sidhe writes:
> I am what we call an "intellectual snob". I read alt.gothic because it is
> the only place on the web that I've found that I find stimulating in every
> way I need. intelllectual, emotional, otherwise.
>
> I stay now because yes, there are still quite a few people I love to read
> here. New and old. I lament because it's less, of course. I panic
> because I'm afraid it will become *more* less. We no longer attract the
> intellectual tyupes. They pass us over because, at a quick glance there's
> not a lot of content here.


Don't go. I've come to know you through a.g. as well as a.v., and
you have always been one of the few voices of reason amongst the
trolls, the delusional, and the feeble-minded. I've been a denizen
of both a.g. and a.v. for over three years and, yes, a.g. used to
be an intellectually pleasant place to post. I left for a while
and returned a few months ago only to get my ass kicked royally
by a certain few here who seem to live for ass-kicking. But they
don't rule. There are still intellecutals as well as emotionally
supportive people here. Perhaps they have been silenced and/or
disgusted by what a.g. has become, but it CAN go back to the family
it once was. Yes, we don't know who is and who isn't a 'real'
goth. Hell, we don't even know what is a 'real' goth. But the
bottom line is that everyone here is goth in some way -- perky,
mopey, baby, kafkian, whatever. To lose a member of the family
is tantamount to death. Granted, funerals are black, but we can
find lots of other black things in our lives.


BJ

Jillian Sutter

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

> Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 12-Sep-97 a.g.coffeehouse? (Re:
> Here'.. by Bradley W Zimmerman@CMU.
> > nope.
> > Eric credited that to Jilli in his Permission article.
> > if memory serves me correctly, which it rarely does,
> > i think it was either Vlad or Voron back in '93....
> >

If they either of them said it, I didn't know about it....unconscious
plagerism? However, I would rather that it was Vlad I unconsciously
plagerized, instead of....The Other One. <ewww..>

-Jilli
(but *I* said it too...<whine, whine>).

"Gracious pet, I'm a supernatural being."
-The Phouka, _War for the Oaks_

++my thoughts, not WotC's!++

Charlotte Ashley

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

FireyDemon (firey...@aol.com) writes:
> Leanan, allow me to step up and explain myself to you as I think you are
> missing a few essential points.

I'll warn yo ahead of time, you sound *exactly* like a "friend" of mine
who I tried to pan off on brazil.


Everyone has their problems, hillary. Your life sounds exactly like many
other people I know. It happens. Life stinks, and those who recognise
that go goth. ;)

We all wear masks. Nobody wants to run around screaming "OH NO HELP ME
HELP ME MY LIFE SUCKS OH WOE WOE WOE". we cope how we can.

I'm not accusing you of being happy, or acting happy.

I am not accusing you of anything, save maybe defending a situation I
don't think you entirely understand.

You sound smart, and as if you have the potential for insight, so why
don't you take a couple hours out of each week and post something
interesting and moving to our newsgroup? It doesn't have to be
depressing, I'm, not going to make yyou dwell on your past or on your
scars or anything else. But so far on this newsgroup, you have not payed
your dues. You are taking but not giving.

honestly, if you don't want to read, post or contribute to discussions or
other such loong threads, go to irc.

please. I am not going to read through days worth of *giggle* just on the
basis that you claim to have earned it through years of trials.


leanan sidhe

Marcus Pan

unread,
Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
to

Charlotte Ashley wrote:

> it *was* fucking funny. *snicker* won the bread war.... heheh, that was
> good....

It was lame...we obviously have different senses of humor. Probably how
this whole thing started.

Charlotte Ashley

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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Bradley W Zimmerman (rap...@CMU.EDU) writes:
> wow...
>
> i've been reading the replies to this thread for the
> last 3.5 hours. It's honestly the most entertaining
> read i've had on here in months....
>
> thanx.
> *grin*

We do it for you, sweetcakes. ;)


leanan sidhe, who feels sortof...well, satisfied. And content.

Stained

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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Bradley W Zimmerman wrote:
>
> wow...
>
> i've been reading the replies to this thread for the
> last 3.5 hours. It's honestly the most entertaining
> read i've had on here in months....

Earlier today, in email to Pan, I concluded that Charlotte's MO in
starting this thread was to give us all something decent to read. Looks
like I was right.

Sheryl

Marcus Pan

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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Urisk wrote:
> Maybe because to some, you tend to be the epitome of "zero content"...

Pretty slick coming from someone who 3 months ago was another troll.

Marcus Pan

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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Charlotte Ashley wrote:
>
> Albatross (tpa...@drizzle.com) writes:
> > FireyDemon wrote:
> >>
> >> An evil little NG destructive perkygoth bounds in and sees the unhappy
> >> look on her PaPaPan's face. Uh oh this cannot be good. She nervously runs
> >> and hugs him. Whus wrong boi?
> >
> > Why look here. A pan of Pan! A Pan loaf!
> > I think I've won the bread war.
>
> *snort*
>
> LOL! Now *that* is truely funny.

How can it be? Isn't that just more fluff? You hate fluff...or does it
depend on who posts the fluff?

Kevin J Meehan

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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Excerpts from netnews.alt.gothic: 12-Sep-97 a.g.coffeehouse? (Re:
Here'.. by Bradley W Zimmerman@CMU.
> nope.
> Eric credited that to Jilli in his Permission article.
> if memory serves me correctly, which it rarely does,
> i think it was either Vlad or Voron back in '93....
>

eck.
stop saying missing people's names like that.
they make fiddly little past bits of memory
come rushing out and beat up current brainwaves.
now i have to stop before i start thinking too hard
about all those old discussions regarding military schools.

damn, boo.
don't *make* me start with the name game again.
i'm sober this time.

slan,
-caoimhin

caoimhin seamus o'meehan|coming soon to a screen near you.
<eldr...@cmu.edu>______|
*Lack of a witty .sig file due to overwork.*
Any taunting of the writer is likely to produce unpredictable results.

Marcus Pan

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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Charlotte Ashley wrote:
> I am what we call an "intellectual snob". I read alt.gothic because it is
> the only place on the web that I've found that I find stimulating in every
> way I need. intelllectual, emotional, otherwise.

What about the humor and fun stimulation that I want? Does that not
count for anything?



> alt.gothic is *special*, something I have no replacement for in real life.
> I need it as a stimulant. It's the only one.

Same here, unfortunately we need it for different reasons.



> intellectual tyupes. They pass us over because, at a quick glance there's
> not a lot of content here.

Not a lot of content for YOU...



> If you do really feel it is necessary to convert alt.gothic into a haven
> for people seeking only light entertainment, then I'll leave and watch tv.
> it's cheaper. fuck knows I'm a starving student and shouldn't be here
> anyway. :)

I'm not converting a damn thing. I'm just being me.

Marcus Pan

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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Charlotte Ashley wrote:

> Go back. read it. In the meantime, read what kes and albatross said too.
> and oddlystrange.

Of course nothing I had to say means anything these days, right
Charlotte? All you did is spell out the Charlotte support roster (with
the exception of Oddly who provided a great definition).

Wendy Wanders, Subject 117

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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In article <5v9qvb$8...@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, ktu...@larry.cc.emory.edu (Krista J. Tuzinkiewicz) writes:
> I *like* reading about what other people have in their cd collections,
> it generally allows me some exposeur to new music and such, 'cause no
> matter how many times I ask the DJ 90% of the time I foget the band's name
> before I get home. But I do get tired of little one-liners that
> basically say 'oh that's cool' or 'me too.' Same way I get tired of
> hearing people insult one another. Flames can be fun to read, but when
> they dwindle down into personal attacks *snore*.
Considering my general lack of sources for new ideas on what to look for in
music, being where I am, I ddefinitely like hearing what others listen to,
that's how I got into Joy Division, for instance, from descriptions I heard
right here.


losthalo

Urisk

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Sep 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/12/97
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(mhi...@reed.edu) kes enlightened us with:
>
> Look, I lurk here. Post every once in a while, but not much. Only when I
> have something that _has_ to be said, that I think is reasonably
> intelligent, possibly funny, possibly serious, that other people would
> enjoy reading.

If that's how you choose to participate, fine... Personally I post for my
own reasons, not for the entertainment of others~ any similarities between
myself and an alt.gothic court jester are purely coincidental.

> So it bothers me that when I go to alt.gothic looking for
> something that is entertaining and intelligent I AM NO LONGER FINDING
> MUCH! I am finding hundreds and hundreds of messages that don't belong
> here, that hold nothing of interest for me.

Many (most?) of us here have the same problem. We just disagree about which
posts *do* interest us. Who are you to say what doesn't belong here? Why is
this so hard for so many of you to grasp?

> And I waste my time. And other people also waste
> their money, downloading all of it. There's a lot of people
> here talking about themselves, and I've got news for you - no
> one is liiistening.

"NO one?" What makes you such an authority on what people liiisten to? In
any case, as I said in another post:

" 'Thoughtful literacy' comes in waves. It should be expressed when it is
" there, if you like to hear yourself speak, not in the hopes of finding
" listeners~ which is more self-serving?

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