Diablo 2 mod question...

[Jonathan Ellis]

Is there a working mod, now, that does nothing else but provide Diablo 2's
"online" content to offline players, for the latest patch of Diablo 2? (At
least the ladder-only runewords - although it would be nice if it also
provided a means to get Uber Diablo or the Tristram Ubers and skill torches
content, in a situation where one can't simply autosell Stones of Jordan
because finding even one is a miracle, let alone finding multiple.)

Is there a working utility for sharing stashes between characters, also for
the latest patch of Diablo 2, so that if my paladin finds gear that a
sorceress needs and vice versa, they could swap?

If so, in either case, how easy are they to use, and where might they be
found?

I last played D2 back in the days of ATMA (which I could get working for
patches 1.09 and 1.10, but eventually crashed and corrupted at least one
offline savefile) and PLUGY (which I could never get working at all)...

-- JLE

[Aulë]

On Thursday, June 21, 2012 7:09:17 PM UTC-4, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
> I last played D2 back in the days of ATMA (which I could get working for
> patches 1.09 and 1.10, but eventually crashed and corrupted at least one
> offline savefile) and PLUGY (which I could never get working at all)...
>
> -- JLE

I believe that both PlugY and ATMA have been updated for 1.13. There is also a program called GoMule.

[Pin]

Plugy does not work with 1.13d. Plugy is very easy to setup, you can also
watch video on youtube. A way around to keep your 1.13d patch with plugy;
http://twigstechtips.blogspot.ca/2011/11/sad-to-say-it-but-ive-been-hooked-on.html

[Jonathan Ellis]

"Pin" <nos...@noSpam.com> wrote in message
news:js3vuq$phd$1...@dont-email.me...

Hm, interesting. That looks like a way to downgrade from 1.13d to 1.13c and
use PLUGY on the latter.

So what, if anything, were the differences between official patches 1.13c
and 1.13d?

-- JLE

[Jonathan Ellis]

"Jonathan Ellis" <jle3...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:js4f62$b21$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Also, thanks. I'm doing a complete clean reinstall of D2 - for the first
time in about seven years. I am not technically minded. What EXACT steps
would I need to take in order to be able to play without ever needing to put
the CD in the drive after installing the game from it?

(I have the original CDs with CD-keys for both D2 and the LOD expansion.)

--JLE

[ImperiusDamian]

On 2012-06-23 09:16 AM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>
> Also, thanks. I'm doing a complete clean reinstall of D2 - for the first
> time in about seven years. I am not technically minded. What EXACT steps
> would I need to take in order to be able to play without ever needing to put
> the CD in the drive after installing the game from it?
>
> (I have the original CDs with CD-keys for both D2 and the LOD expansion.)
>

Install 1.13c. That's it. ;)
Or, for that matter, 1.12 and anything after it.

Also if you register your keys on the Battle.net account page, you can
download the D2 and LoD installers, no need for CDs at all.

--
ImperiusDamian
http://www.damiansdominion.web44.net
Diablo II Gemstone IV Mod
http://www.damiansdominion.web44.net/gemstone/index.php

[Jonathan Ellis]

"ImperiusDamian" <damianbl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:js4ke9$2cr$3...@dont-email.me...

> On 2012-06-23 09:16 AM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>>
>> Also, thanks. I'm doing a complete clean reinstall of D2 - for the first
>> time in about seven years. I am not technically minded. What EXACT steps
>> would I need to take in order to be able to play without ever needing to
>> put
>> the CD in the drive after installing the game from it?
>>
>> (I have the original CDs with CD-keys for both D2 and the LOD expansion.)
>>
>
> Install 1.13c. That's it. ;)
> Or, for that matter, 1.12 and anything after it.
>
> Also if you register your keys on the Battle.net account page, you can
> download the D2 and LoD installers, no need for CDs at all.

I now have a problem with this.

I downloaded the installers, and I now want to install. BUT, the installer
is requiring a 26-character CD-key.

This doesn't work because my copy of Diablo2 - and the expansion - is so old
that it has a 16-character key, not a 26-character one. (Which worked
perfectly fine last time I played... which was on patch 1.10 back in 2004.)
And it says my CD key is invalid. Yet the selfsame keys worked perfectly
well for registration.

How do I get around this issue?

-- JLE

[Jonathan Ellis]

"Jonathan Ellis" <jle3...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:js53gd$sl2$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Never mind, I found the answer. Went to my Battle.net account and found that
it had given me a new notional 26-character number which seems to work. I
wondered why it was doing that when I first registered the games, telling me
my game keys were something different to what I had already typed in... now
I know.

-- JLE

[ImperiusDamian]

On 2012-06-23 02:59 PM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>
> Never mind, I found the answer. Went to my Battle.net account and found that
> it had given me a new notional 26-character number which seems to work. I
> wondered why it was doing that when I first registered the games, telling me
> my game keys were something different to what I had already typed in... now
> I know.
>

Yep, you get a new CD key when you register yours on BNet accounts.

[Jonathan Ellis]

"ImperiusDamian" <damianbl...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:js56j5$gft$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 2012-06-23 02:59 PM, Jonathan Ellis wrote:
>>
>> Never mind, I found the answer. Went to my Battle.net account and found
>> that
>> it had given me a new notional 26-character number which seems to work. I
>> wondered why it was doing that when I first registered the games, telling
>> me
>> my game keys were something different to what I had already typed in...
>> now
>> I know.
>>
>
> Yep, you get a new CD key when you register yours on BNet accounts.

Thanks for the help. I got the full battlenet download of D2 and LoD, which
appears to be patch 1.12: updated it to patch 1.13c rather than 1.13d: and
got PlugY working on it.

Now wondering where to start... Given the existence of the PlugY shared
stash, it's feasible to set up a MF character to find stuff for other
characters, so it's a question of which build to use. I guess a couple of
cookie cutter builds are the obvious place to start. Tried starting on
/players 5 at first, found it really wasn't too difficult so graduated up to
/players 8.

The character I *really* want to do properly is the one I played online
years ago, a conviction/vengeance paladin with a rogue merc (I'm rather
partial to the starting rogue just for fun. Can the rogue merc be equipped
with an Ice runeword bow, if I find the stuff for one? Because that would
ABSOLUTELY kick ass), but I guess he's the kind of guy that will do better
with a bit of twinking, so I'm mainly looking for which builds survive best
untwinked as non-gear-dependent MF-ers? I'm guessing, for starters,
something like a meteorb sorceress or possibly a skelemancer necro (with Act
2 NM Holy Freeze merc - until then, possibly a Might one for the necro from
Act 2 Normal, and a Defiance one for the sorc?) or maybe a hammerdin (with
pretty much ANY merc).

Also I don't really like cheating but, in playing on /players 8, I'm kind of
playing solo against mobs designed for an 8-man party, which begs the
question of whether it's "sort of okay" to edit plugy.ini to give, say, a
few more skill or stat points per level to compensate for that? Or does the
increased exp, faster levelling and more items compensate anyway?

Also also, is a tri-elemental sorceress possible (or does it end up as jack
of all trades but not good enough at any)? Or how viable are
mostly-single-elemental builds (brilliant against anything that isn't immune
but helpless against something that is)? How about a Poison or Bone
necromancer rather than a summoner, or maybe a Golem specialist? What kinds
of build of Amazon, Druid, Assassin or Barbarian would one recommend for
single player, and is the answer different if you would rather go untwinked
and find your own stuff, compared to using the shared stash? (Even if we
allow an "untwinked" character to at least use the expanded multi-page
single PlugY stash, as the SP equivalent of safe muling on BNet, so he gets
to keep enough loot to not have to throw nearly everything away as he finds
it.)

(hm. after some thought, I'd guess that a Lightning sorceress build could -
like a Fire one - have Frozen Orb as a backup, since Orb doesn't really need
its single synergy of Ice Bolt, so a lightning/cold sorceress looks viable:
obviously Orb is the cold skill to use in a tri-element build, but what
would be the hot or lightning skills to specialise in?)

-- Jonathan.

[Shiflet]

On Jun 26, 3:04 pm, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The character I *really* want to do properly is the one I played online
> years ago, a conviction/vengeance paladin with a rogue merc (I'm rather
> partial to the starting rogue just for fun.

Word of warning, Convinction/Vengeance makes for really, really SLOW
going. You are limited to 1 target at a time, with an attack speed of
8fpa max, and you will also have much less life leech than a zealot
would.

> Can the rogue merc be equipped
> with an Ice runeword bow, if I find the stuff for one? Because that would
> ABSOLUTELY kick ass),

Yes, rogues can equip an Ice bow as long as it's not made in a zon
only bow.

> but I guess he's the kind of guy that will do better
> with a bit of twinking, so I'm mainly looking for which builds survive best
> untwinked as non-gear-dependent MF-ers? I'm guessing, for starters,
> something like a meteorb sorceress or possibly a skelemancer necro

Summoner is incredibly effective without being gear dependent. That
said, for MFing, you really want speed, which means, you really want
teleport. And since you're not exactly rolling in Enigmas for a
summoner or hammerdin and since replacing teleport charges on an
amulet or whatever(assuming you can find one) can be a hassle, sorc is
the way to go.

> (with Act
> 2 NM Holy Freeze merc - until then, possibly a Might one for the necro from
> Act 2 Normal,

Might comes from act 2 NM as well, and is much, much better for a
summoner than Holy Freeze is. Summoners do NOT want a holy freeze
merc, ever.

> and a Defiance one for the sorc?) or maybe a hammerdin (with
> pretty much ANY merc).

Both sorc and hammerdin favor Holy Freeze. The boost Defiance gives to
your defense is very minimal, Holy Freeze is simply better in almost
every cast.

> Also I don't really like cheating but, in playing on /players 8, I'm kind of
> playing solo against mobs designed for an 8-man party, which begs the
> question of whether it's "sort of okay" to edit plugy.ini to give, say, a
> few more skill or stat points per level to compensate for that?

No, cause players routinely solo mobs in full games on bnet, too.
Players regularly MF or solo level in duel games(with the MFer/
leveller killing Diablo/Baal while everyone else is dueling in act 1)
so no, the mobs are perfectly capable of being soloed with the legit
stats. If you want to play legit and you can't solo them on players 8,
you need to get better gear, or tune it down to a lower player level.
And if you don't want to play legit, you don't NEED to MF, just import
in whatever items you want and have at it.

> Also also, is a tri-elemental sorceress possible (or does it end up as jack
> of all trades but not good enough at any)?

Not really viable in Hell, as basically all your attacks other than
Orb will be very weak.

> Or how viable are
> mostly-single-elemental builds (brilliant against anything that isn't immune
> but helpless against something that is)?

Basically, yes. The exception is a lightning sorc built around
Infinity. Since Infinity is ridiculously hard to get without
trading(or in your case, importing), I'd advise against going a single
element build.

> How about a Poison or Bone necromancer rather than a summoner,

Poison necros are really more suited for PvP than MFing, if you wanna
MF with one you really want to be a hybrid poison/summoner. Bone
necros are doable but not really good at MFing unless you have really
top of the line gear.

> or maybe a Golem specialist?

Worthless past normal. Golems do pitiful damage, many monsters will be
able to regen health faster than the golem can take it away.

> What kinds of build of Amazon, Druid, Assassin or Barbarian would one recommend for single player,

Assuming you aren't guaranteed access to top of the line gear:Javazon,
wind druid, trapper, doesn't matter(pretty much all barbs are fairly
gear dependent).

> and is the answer different if you would rather go untwinked
> and find your own stuff, compared to using the shared stash?

No. My answer was the "safest/easiest" build to use without having
access to the high end stuff. Thought truth be told even WITH high end
stuff that builds are still pretty much my recommendation(though
bowzon can match javazon then).

> (hm. after some thought, I'd guess that a Lightning sorceress build could -
> like a Fire one - have Frozen Orb as a backup, since Orb doesn't really need
> its single synergy of Ice Bolt, so a lightning/cold sorceress looks viable:

Light/Cold is the most efficient dual element sorc build there is IMO,
and is the sorc build I would choose over every other build, aside
from a pure lightning sorc built to wield Infinity.

> obviously Orb is the cold skill to use in a tri-element build, but what
> would be the hot or lightning skills to specialise in?)

Tri-elementalist is really gonna be too weak for late nightmare, much
less Hell. For purely solo play, stick with dual element build(unless
you get an Infinity, then go pure Light).

> -- Jonathan.

[ald]

On this I totally agree. I've been playing mostly on /players 8 since
they introduced that option in SP, and the few times I found that too
difficult (in more difficult mods, I don't ever remember finding that
in regular LoD) I'd just tune it down for a bit to /players 4 or 5.
The only part of the above that I'd take exception to would be the "if
you don't want to play legit" part, and that may be more of a personal
preference. Since you're talking SP, you wouldn't be cheating anyone
but yourself, but I don't see a reason to do that.

And this would be the part I'd disagree with. Bowazon is/was my
specialty, mostly played 'pure', and I certainly found them easier to
play than even a twinked Javazon. But I fully admit that I never
really 'got' a Javazon, so just offering a different opinion.

--
ald
reply via email to ald_007_1999 at yahoo dot com

[Shiflet]

On Jun 27, 1:35 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> On this I totally agree. I've been playing mostly on /players 8 since
> they introduced that option in SP, and the few times I found that too
> difficult (in more difficult mods, I don't ever remember finding that
> in regular LoD) I'd just tune it down for a bit to /players 4 or 5.
> The only part of the above that I'd take exception to would be the "if
> you don't want to play legit" part, and that may be more of a personal
> preference. Since you're talking SP, you wouldn't be cheating anyone
> but yourself, but I don't see a reason to do that.

Well I don't CARE if he cheats in single player, it only affects him.
But he at least seems concerned about following the "rules" of the
game, finding his own items legitly and such, so I can't see any
reason to cheat in other fashion as well. If you're gonna bump up your
skills and stats, you may as well just import the better gear(even if
only on the MF toon) and be done with it. Even doing it that way would
be more in line with the rules of the game, since you'd still have
gear available in game, rather than stats/skill allotments that can't
be replicated online.

> And this would be the part I'd disagree with. Bowazon is/was my
> specialty, mostly played 'pure', and I certainly found them easier to
> play than even a twinked Javazon. But I fully admit that I never
> really 'got' a Javazon, so just offering a different opinion.

Well, Javazons do immense damage with their lightning skills(Charged
Strike is a ridiculously effective boss/large mob killer, Lightning
Fury lays waste to huge mobs, and Lightning Strike is useful for those
smaller packs of just a few mobs), and they can Jab for physical
damage as well. They can also use a shield, meaning they have access
to one of the big sources of resists that bowzons do not. Plus, the
lightning damage isn't dependent on having a good weapon, with a
bowzon most of your abilities are lessened significantly if you don't
have a decent bow. Both obviously have access to the valk and the
defensive passives so they're even there. I just find Javazons to have
better survivability(and most of the high ranked zons on HC ladder are
javazons too, so it seems at least a somewhat shared view)...

[ald]

On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 01:15:47 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet
<rshi...@charter.net> wrote:

>On Jun 27, 1:35 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>> On this I totally agree. I've been playing mostly on /players 8 since
>> they introduced that option in SP, and the few times I found that too
>> difficult (in more difficult mods, I don't ever remember finding that
>> in regular LoD) I'd just tune it down for a bit to /players 4 or 5.
>> The only part of the above that I'd take exception to would be the "if
>> you don't want to play legit" part, and that may be more of a personal
>> preference. Since you're talking SP, you wouldn't be cheating anyone
>> but yourself, but I don't see a reason to do that.
>
>Well I don't CARE if he cheats in single player, it only affects him.
>But he at least seems concerned about following the "rules" of the
>game, finding his own items legitly and such, so I can't see any
>reason to cheat in other fashion as well. If you're gonna bump up your
>skills and stats, you may as well just import the better gear(even if
>only on the MF toon) and be done with it. Even doing it that way would
>be more in line with the rules of the game, since you'd still have
>gear available in game, rather than stats/skill allotments that can't
>be replicated online.

You're preaching to the choir here ;-)

>> And this would be the part I'd disagree with. Bowazon is/was my
>> specialty, mostly played 'pure', and I certainly found them easier to
>> play than even a twinked Javazon. But I fully admit that I never
>> really 'got' a Javazon, so just offering a different opinion.
>
>Well, Javazons do immense damage with their lightning skills(Charged
>Strike is a ridiculously effective boss/large mob killer, Lightning
>Fury lays waste to huge mobs, and Lightning Strike is useful for those
>smaller packs of just a few mobs),

Here we go again ;-) Strafe can do all that and more.

>and they can Jab for physical
>damage as well. They can also use a shield, meaning they have access
>to one of the big sources of resists that bowzons do not. Plus, the
>lightning damage isn't dependent on having a good weapon, with a
>bowzon most of your abilities are lessened significantly if you don't
>have a decent bow.

I guess that entirely depends on your definition of 'decent'. For all
of my 'pure' Bowazons (again, most of the ones I played) what they'd
found up to any given point was more than decent enough.

>Both obviously have access to the valk and the
>defensive passives so they're even there. I just find Javazons to have
>better survivability(and most of the high ranked zons on HC ladder are
>javazons too, so it seems at least a somewhat shared view)...

*Maybe*, but who plays a SP Hardcore character? /kidding Ok, maybe
you, but what *sane* person? ;-)

I'd post my website again so you could see how much fun I had playing
a Bowazon, but you'd ignore it again.

[Shiflet]

Strafe does great against PI groups?

> I guess that entirely depends on your definition of 'decent'. For all
> of my 'pure' Bowazons (again, most of the ones I played) what they'd
> found up to any given point was more than decent enough.

Doesn't change what I said-most bow attacks are based on weapon
damage. Much of javazon damage is NOT based on weapon damage. You can
take a javazon through act 1 hell using the STARTER javelins, if you
want(seriously), which was the point I was making.

> *Maybe*, but who plays a SP Hardcore character? /kidding Ok, maybe
> you, but what *sane* person? ;-)

You missed the point, again. The point was that Javas have more
survivability than bowas(which is why there are more high level
javazons than bowazons in HC). I don't play HC(tried it, did well at
it, but didn't like it) but there's a reason certain builds are
prevalent among the really high level HC players compared to SC
players. Summoners are likewise more common than bonemancers on HC,
because a summoner is the safer and easier build to play.

> I'd post my website again so you could see how much fun I had playing
> a Bowazon, but you'd ignore it again.

Because how much fun you had playing a bowazon is 100% irrelevant? He
was asking for easiest/safest to play using just what he fnds, not the
most enjoyable builds in game. I prefer bowazons, but javazons ARE the
easier and safer zon to play using just gear you find. I could tell
you how much fun I had playing a melee sorc, kicksin, and a bow pally,
too, but they're ALSO not the builds I'd recommend to someone wanting
the most effective builds using just stuff you found.

> --

[Xocyll]

Shiflet <rshi...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

Socketed bow full of perfect gems for elemental damage or an elemental
damage Unique, Bye, Bye PIs.

How's lightning X work vs Lightning Immunes?

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

[ImperiusDamian]

On 2012-06-28 08:41 AM, Xocyll wrote:
>>
>> Strafe does great against PI groups?
>
> Socketed bow full of perfect gems for elemental damage or an elemental
> damage Unique, Bye, Bye PIs.
>
> How's lightning X work vs Lightning Immunes?
>

Jab. ;)

[death...@yahoo.com.au]

On Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:55:39 PM UTC+10, ImperiusDamian wrote:
> On 2012-06-28 08:41 AM, Xocyll wrote:
> >>
> >> Strafe does great against PI groups?
> >
> > Socketed bow full of perfect gems for elemental damage or an elemental
> > damage Unique, Bye, Bye PIs.
> >
> > How's lightning X work vs Lightning Immunes?
> >
>
> Jab. ;)
>

+ Crushing Blow and finish with an evil laugh.

--
Ashen Shugar

[Shiflet]

On Jun 28, 7:41 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
> Shiflet <rshif...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of

You realize how little damage that does, and how long you spend on
each physical immune yes? Socketed bow full of perf gems vs PIs in
hell is basically either a way to die, or a way to kill an evening(if
the mobs aren't hurting you due to distraction from decoy/valk), not a
way to really make progress. Smarter move is to go Magic Arrow(or Fire
Arrow, but that has to spend a skill point you wouldn't be spending
otherwise) but the effectiveness of that is more dependent on the
effectiveness of your bow.

> How's lightning X work vs Lightning Immunes?

Jab+Merc+Crushing Blow...works pretty well. Not nearly as fast as vs
non-light immunes, but really not bad comparatively.

Either way though, even with Multi/Strafe, you won't kill big packs of
non-Light immunes as fast as Lightning Fury will, and no matter WHAT
route your bowzon goes, you will not take down an boss or champion
nearly as fast as a javazon will with Charged Strike(it really is
stupidly effective against single mobs. NOTHING takes an act boss down
faster). Bowzons are much more fun though, IMO. My favorite thing
about bowzons...if you are a strafer, with max speed Strafe, you are
shooting, dead seriously, the same rate of fire as an AK-47. How sweet
is that?

[ald]

On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 02:40:43 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet
<rshi...@charter.net> wrote:

>On Jun 28, 12:22 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Jun 2012 01:15:47 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet

<snippety-do-dah>

>> >Well, Javazons do immense damage with their lightning skills(Charged
>> >Strike is a ridiculously effective boss/large mob killer, Lightning
>> >Fury lays waste to huge mobs, and Lightning Strike is useful for those
>> >smaller packs of just a few mobs),
>>
>> Here we go again ;-) Strafe can do all that and more.
>
>Strafe does great against PI groups?

Great? No, but decent, with enough elemental damage from charms and
such. All those skills you mentioned for a Javazon do great against LI

groups?

>> I guess that entirely depends on your definition of 'decent'. For all
>> of my 'pure' Bowazons (again, most of the ones I played) what they'd
>> found up to any given point was more than decent enough.
>
>Doesn't change what I said-most bow attacks are based on weapon
>damage. Much of javazon damage is NOT based on weapon damage. You can
>take a javazon through act 1 hell using the STARTER javelins, if you
>want(seriously), which was the point I was making.

The starter javelins that any Bowazon also starts with? You're missing
my point here. I've taken many Bowazons through *all* of Hell with
only the bow (and other equipment) that they found along the way. You
could probably (though I haven't tried it) take a Bowazon through act
1 Hell with the first socketed bow you find.

>> *Maybe*, but who plays a SP Hardcore character? /kidding Ok, maybe
>> you, but what *sane* person? ;-)
>
>You missed the point, again. The point was that Javas have more
>survivability than bowas(which is why there are more high level
>javazons than bowazons in HC). I don't play HC(tried it, did well at
>it, but didn't like it) but there's a reason certain builds are
>prevalent among the really high level HC players compared to SC
>players. Summoners are likewise more common than bonemancers on HC,
>because a summoner is the safer and easier build to play.

And you're missing my point, too. To me, playing a Blood DK in PvP is
as close as you can come to cheating (sorry, had to get that in
somewhere). It isn't only about survivability, to me, it's about fun
along the way. Fwiw, though, most of my Necros were summoners, because
that's what I found to be the most fun.

[Shiflet]

On Jun 29, 1:26 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> Great? No, but decent, with enough elemental damage from charms and
> such. All those skills you mentioned for a Javazon do great against LI
> groups?

Jab+CB(likely on the merc)+Merc+Valk does(an a2 merc will kill a LI
faster than an act 1 or act 3 merc will kill a PI). Certainly faster
than Strafe with elemental charms, unless you've stocked up on an
inventory of Hell Baal elemental damage charms(and if you have,
congrats, you are very likely rich).

> The starter javelins that any Bowazon also starts with? You're missing
> my point here. I've taken many Bowazons through *all* of Hell with
> only the bow (and other equipment) that they found along the way.

Whereas a javazon could do that without ever finding any javelins
along the way. You can get by with what you find-javazons can do the
same if they find no weapon along the way. Hell, a javazon can kill
Hell Diablo with the starter javs, without having to take long to do
it.

> And you're missing my point, too. To me, playing a Blood DK in PvP is
> as close as you can come to cheating

Only vs melee(and you're right, then. blood vs any other melee is
ridiculous). Ranged though can kite us for days if they are smart
enough to move and don't just sit there and let us wail on them while
they try to cast. You win some, you lose some.

> It isn't only about survivability, to me, it's about fun along the way.

Except, the person I was replying to asked about which build is the
most EFFECTIVE, primarily soloing, with no twinking. He wasn't ASKING
about what was more fun, so adding what was more fun was irrelevant to
the point being discussed. I could name a lot of more fun builds but
they are not what was being asked about. If someone asks me the most
fun paladin or zon build, my answer will be different than if they ask
what's the most effective paladin or zon build.

> Fwiw, though, most of my Necros were summoners, because that's what I found to be the most fun.

I prefer Bone, it's more fun for me. But if someone is asking about
the most effective, non-twinked solo build, I would NOT jump in and
say "Bone!", because summoners are the better choice.

[Xocyll]

Shiflet <rshi...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of

That was just the first thing to come to mind.
Chances are I'd use a cold or fire based attack, even if it wasn't maxed
out and let the Valk/Merc tank the whole time.

>> How's lightning X work vs Lightning Immunes?
>
>Jab+Merc+Crushing Blow...works pretty well. Not nearly as fast as vs
>non-light immunes, but really not bad comparatively.

Now I never played a poke-it-with-a-stick Amazon, but I don't think they
get crushing blow as an actual ability, so this involves some twinking?

>Either way though, even with Multi/Strafe, you won't kill big packs of
>non-Light immunes as fast as Lightning Fury will, and no matter WHAT
>route your bowzon goes, you will not take down an boss or champion
>nearly as fast as a javazon will with Charged Strike(it really is
>stupidly effective against single mobs. NOTHING takes an act boss down
>faster). Bowzons are much more fun though, IMO. My favorite thing
>about bowzons...if you are a strafer, with max speed Strafe, you are
>shooting, dead seriously, the same rate of fire as an AK-47. How sweet
>is that?

Strafazons are one of my two favorite builds/classes for the game (never
like Multi as much), those and Sorceresses.

I dabbled with, well, everything else, but Zons and Sorcs were always my
preferred playstyle.

Mowing down hordes of enemies like a combine harvester through a wheat
field makes you feel mighty indeed.

[Shiflet]

On Jun 29, 9:21 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:

> Now I never played a poke-it-with-a-stick Amazon, but I don't think they
> get crushing blow as an actual ability, so this involves some twinking?

No, as it's available on even easy to get gear. By the time you're
facing PIs, even playing strictly solo it's not hard to acquire the
runes to make an Obedience, for example. And Goblin Toes I've found
plenty of times on my own, without even doing dedicated MF runs.

> Strafazons are one of my two favorite builds/classes for the game (never
> like Multi as much), those and Sorceresses.

I prefer Multi for actual combat use. You can hit everything in front
of you up to like 12 screens away with it, plus you're not locked in
place for as long as you are with Strafe(Mana is a pain though,
without some mana leech gear). But the speed of Strafe is awesome to
see.

> Mowing down hordes of enemies like a combine harvester through a wheat
> field makes you feel mighty indeed.

You can do that with quite a few builds really, not just sorcs and
zons...though admittedly, they have the most spectacular graphics for
it.

[Xocyll]

Shiflet <rshi...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Jun 29, 9:21 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>
>> Now I never played a poke-it-with-a-stick Amazon, but I don't think they
>> get crushing blow as an actual ability, so this involves some twinking?
>
>No, as it's available on even easy to get gear. By the time you're
>facing PIs, even playing strictly solo it's not hard to acquire the
>runes to make an Obedience, for example. And Goblin Toes I've found
>plenty of times on my own, without even doing dedicated MF runs.

Bit hard to actually make it when you're a Single Player, since it's a
Ladder only runeword.

Usually, the rare times I get anything with that ability, it's that weak
little club/shortsword (I forget which.)

>> Strafazons are one of my two favorite builds/classes for the game (never
>> like Multi as much), those and Sorceresses.
>
>I prefer Multi for actual combat use. You can hit everything in front
>of you up to like 12 screens away with it, plus you're not locked in
>place for as long as you are with Strafe(Mana is a pain though,
>without some mana leech gear). But the speed of Strafe is awesome to
>see.

I've used the both, but prefer strafe for it's utility vs fast moving
ambush types. Since Multi has to be aimed and you need to get the mouse
pointer to the farthest possible in the direction they are coming from
in order to focus it, I always found it annoying when things came
straight down/up the screen and half the arrows would miss them entirely
due to the spread.

>> Mowing down hordes of enemies like a combine harvester through a wheat
>> field makes you feel mighty indeed.
>
>You can do that with quite a few builds really, not just sorcs and
>zons...though admittedly, they have the most spectacular graphics for
>it.

Indeed.

[Shiflet]

On Jun 29, 12:18 pm, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
> Shiflet <rshif...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of

> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
> >On Jun 29, 9:21 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>
> >> Now I never played a poke-it-with-a-stick Amazon, but I don't think they
> >> get crushing blow as an actual ability, so this involves some twinking?
>
> >No, as it's available on even easy to get gear. By the time you're
> >facing PIs, even playing strictly solo it's not hard to acquire the
> >runes to make an Obedience, for example. And Goblin Toes I've found
> >plenty of times on my own, without even doing dedicated MF runs.
>
> Bit hard to actually make it when you're a Single Player, since it's a
> Ladder only runeword.

There are numerous addons that allow the ladder only stuff on single
player, and the vast majority of single players use them. This dude
already said he's using addons like the shared stash feature so it's
not like he's ruled them out or anything.

> Usually, the rare times I get anything with that ability, it's that weak
> little club/shortsword (I forget which.)

Your luck must be terrible. I find Goblin Toes and Guillame's Face all
the time(I think I have enough GFaces to outfit the standing army of
Kazakhstan), and this is from someone that doesn't spend much time
MFing, and doesn't load up on MF gear.

> I've used the both, but prefer strafe for it's utility vs fast moving
> ambush types.  Since Multi has to be aimed and you need to get the mouse
> pointer to the farthest possible in the direction they are coming from
> in order to focus it, I always found it annoying when things came
> straight down/up the screen and half the arrows would miss them entirely
> due to the spread.

Multi isn't about hitting them with all the arrows, it's about hitting
many enemies at once. And shift+shoot is standard practice for me,
aiming isn't hard at all. I'm even pretty good at hitting fast moving
targets with non-guided single arrows(bow pally), hitting mobs with
multi is much easier. My bowzon uses both(maxed both attacks), but
Multi gets used more as I find it more generally useful.

> >You can do that with quite a few builds really, not just sorcs and
> >zons...though admittedly, they have the most spectacular graphics for
> >it.
>
> Indeed.

Fire druids are the most spectacular of all(also very lag causing for
some people, heh), IMO, but their damage is so stupidly random(and so
much of it is fire based, which is a chore against immunes), that
"mowing down hordes" with them is difficult:-(

[Xocyll]

Shiflet <rshi...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of

the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Jun 29, 12:18 pm, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>> Shiflet <rshif...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
>> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>
>> >On Jun 29, 9:21 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> Now I never played a poke-it-with-a-stick Amazon, but I don't think they
>> >> get crushing blow as an actual ability, so this involves some twinking?
>>
>> >No, as it's available on even easy to get gear. By the time you're
>> >facing PIs, even playing strictly solo it's not hard to acquire the
>> >runes to make an Obedience, for example. And Goblin Toes I've found
>> >plenty of times on my own, without even doing dedicated MF runs.
>>
>> Bit hard to actually make it when you're a Single Player, since it's a
>> Ladder only runeword.
>
>There are numerous addons that allow the ladder only stuff on single
>player, and the vast majority of single players use them. This dude
>already said he's using addons like the shared stash feature so it's
>not like he's ruled them out or anything.

Yeah but as you say there are lots of mods - some of them might have
those runewords, others won't.
When I do play mods I like to try ones that change the gameplay
drastically, not just a little tweak.

>> Usually, the rare times I get anything with that ability, it's that weak
>> little club/shortsword (I forget which.)
>
>Your luck must be terrible. I find Goblin Toes and Guillame's Face all
>the time(I think I have enough GFaces to outfit the standing army of
>Kazakhstan), and this is from someone that doesn't spend much time
>MFing, and doesn't load up on MF gear.

Welcome to the offline Single Player game.
I've never even seen a Guillame's Face.

It's one of the reasons I tried many mods back in the 1.09 days, some of
them had fixed unique/set drops from certain fights (or at least the
chance they could drop,) so I finally got to see some of the various
items I'd read about in AGD*.

>> I've used the both, but prefer strafe for it's utility vs fast moving
>> ambush types.  Since Multi has to be aimed and you need to get the mouse
>> pointer to the farthest possible in the direction they are coming from
>> in order to focus it, I always found it annoying when things came
>> straight down/up the screen and half the arrows would miss them entirely
>> due to the spread.
>
>Multi isn't about hitting them with all the arrows, it's about hitting
>many enemies at once. And shift+shoot is standard practice for me,
>aiming isn't hard at all. I'm even pretty good at hitting fast moving
>targets with non-guided single arrows(bow pally), hitting mobs with
>multi is much easier. My bowzon uses both(maxed both attacks), but
>Multi gets used more as I find it more generally useful.

The Hitting is the point I was making.
With a 4:3 resolution, the spread _has_ to be wider aiming straight up
or straight down the screen than to the sides or especially diagonal.
A Wide fan of arrows means that a lot of them are wasted and some of the
critters don't get hit at all.
A critter that doesn't get hit, doesn't get chilled, or knocked back
or...

It's the same problem I have with Blizzard once they put in the timer so
you can't stack it - things can and do walk through it untouched.

>> >You can do that with quite a few builds really, not just sorcs and
>> >zons...though admittedly, they have the most spectacular graphics for
>> >it.
>>
>> Indeed.
>
>Fire druids are the most spectacular of all(also very lag causing for
>some people, heh), IMO, but their damage is so stupidly random(and so
>much of it is fire based, which is a chore against immunes), that
>"mowing down hordes" with them is difficult:-(

I had a bit of fun making an Inferno Sorc at one point - maxed out
inferno and several +skill items made for one huge jet of flame.

What I'd really wanted at the time and would have loved to have seen in
D3, was real power customization - IE being able to choose whether you
put a skill point into lengthening the inferno jet or one into widening
it.

For something like Blizzard - it could have been something like a point
in one bit to boost damage/chill time, or a point in increasing the
area, or increasing the actual projectiles, or reducing the timer or ...

Oh D3, what you could have been.

[ald]

On Fri, 29 Jun 2012 00:24:10 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet
<rshi...@charter.net> wrote:

>On Jun 29, 1:26 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>> Great? No, but decent, with enough elemental damage from charms and
>> such. All those skills you mentioned for a Javazon do great against LI
>> groups?
>
>Jab+CB(likely on the merc)+Merc+Valk does(an a2 merc will kill a LI
>faster than an act 1 or act 3 merc will kill a PI). Certainly faster
>than Strafe with elemental charms, unless you've stocked up on an
>inventory of Hell Baal elemental damage charms(and if you have,
>congrats, you are very likely rich).

Actually, I never said I'd be strafing against PI's, that's what you
have Cold/Frozen Arrow for (never preferred the Fire route myself),
and Frozen Arrow+Merc+Valk was what I was calling 'decent', I doubt
Jab is anymore effective.

>> The starter javelins that any Bowazon also starts with? You're missing
>> my point here. I've taken many Bowazons through *all* of Hell with
>> only the bow (and other equipment) that they found along the way.
>
>Whereas a javazon could do that without ever finding any javelins
>along the way. You can get by with what you find-javazons can do the
>same if they find no weapon along the way. Hell, a javazon can kill
>Hell Diablo with the starter javs, without having to take long to do
>it.

Well, you have a distinct advantage in that argument, which I tried to
point out above, in that a Bowazon doesn't start with a bow.

>> And you're missing my point, too. To me, playing a Blood DK in PvP is
>> as close as you can come to cheating
>
>Only vs melee(and you're right, then. blood vs any other melee is
>ridiculous). Ranged though can kite us for days if they are smart
>enough to move and don't just sit there and let us wail on them while
>they try to cast. You win some, you lose some.

Fair enough, that opinion actually came from my Warrior Arenas
partner. Against me, it's my guru's opinion that seems to hold more
true, that they hit like a wet noodle.

>> It isn't only about survivability, to me, it's about fun along the way.
>
>Except, the person I was replying to asked about which build is the
>most EFFECTIVE, primarily soloing, with no twinking. He wasn't ASKING
>about what was more fun, so adding what was more fun was irrelevant to
>the point being discussed. I could name a lot of more fun builds but
>they are not what was being asked about. If someone asks me the most
>fun paladin or zon build, my answer will be different than if they ask
>what's the most effective paladin or zon build.
>
>> Fwiw, though, most of my Necros were summoners, because that's what I found to be the most fun.
>
>I prefer Bone, it's more fun for me. But if someone is asking about
>the most effective, non-twinked solo build, I would NOT jump in and
>say "Bone!", because summoners are the better choice.

I may concede this point, and I apologize for taking the discussion
OT, in that case.

[Shiflet]

On Jun 30, 9:31 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
> Shiflet <rshif...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jun 29, 12:18 pm, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
> >> Shiflet <rshif...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
> >> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
> >> >On Jun 29, 9:21 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>
> >> >> Now I never played a poke-it-with-a-stick Amazon, but I don't think they
> >> >> get crushing blow as an actual ability, so this involves some twinking?
>
> >> >No, as it's available on even easy to get gear. By the time you're
> >> >facing PIs, even playing strictly solo it's not hard to acquire the
> >> >runes to make an Obedience, for example. And Goblin Toes I've found
> >> >plenty of times on my own, without even doing dedicated MF runs.
>
> >> Bit hard to actually make it when you're a Single Player, since it's a
> >> Ladder only runeword.
>
> >There are numerous addons that allow the ladder only stuff on single
> >player, and the vast majority of single players use them. This dude
> >already said he's using addons like the shared stash feature so it's
> >not like he's ruled them out or anything.
>
> Yeah but as you say there are lots of mods - some of them might have
> those runewords, others won't.

Pretty much any mod that enables shared stash(as he is using) also
allows that.

> When I do play mods I like to try ones that change the gameplay
> drastically, not just a little tweak.

I'm not talking mods that turn it into a different game, I'm talking
mods that allow single players access to EVERYTHING that online
players have, which are by far the most used mods.

> Welcome to the offline Single Player game.
> I've never even seen a Guillame's Face.

GFace doesn't have different online and offline drop rates.

> The Hitting is the point I was making.
> With a 4:3 resolution, the spread _has_ to be wider aiming straight up
> or straight down the screen than to the sides or especially diagonal.
> A Wide fan of arrows means that a lot of them are wasted and some of the
> critters don't get hit at all.

If you aren't hitting multiple mobs with Multi, you're playing
terribly, end of story. Yes, not every arrow is gonna hit something,
they're not supposed to. When a plane drops cluster bombs or guy with
an automatic weapon opens fire on an enemy position, you aren't
expecting to hit someone or something of value with each bomb in the
cluster or each bullet in the magazine.

> A critter that doesn't get hit, doesn't get chilled, or knocked back
> or...

And if you're not hitting MOST enemies in your path, as I said, you're
playing terribly.

> I had a bit of fun making an Inferno Sorc at one point - maxed out
> inferno and several +skill items made for one huge jet of flame.

Full screen inferno? I've never messed with Inferno, is there a limit
on it's range?

> What I'd really wanted at the time and would have loved to have seen in
> D3, was real power customization - IE being able to choose whether you
> put a skill point into lengthening the inferno jet or one into widening
> it.

That's kinda what the runes were meant to do...of course, you're
limited to 1 rune per skill, so you can only do so much...

[Shiflet]

On Jun 30, 12:53 pm, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> Actually, I never said I'd be strafing against PI's, that's what you
> have Cold/Frozen Arrow for (never preferred the Fire route myself),
> and Frozen Arrow+Merc+Valk was what I was calling 'decent', I doubt
> Jab is anymore effective.

Frozen Arrow requires a large skill point investment to be effective,
which means you're not playing a standard bowzon build, you're playing
a hybrid bowzon with less points available for the passives/valk. A
javazon does fine with 1 point jab and the standard build. Also, merc
isn't very effective vs PIs(unless you're running mercs with Dreams or
Dragons and such, in which case the untwinked thing is right out the
window), so they don't drastically increase your kill speed vs PIs,
whereas an act 2 merc with average gear can make short work of a LI.

> Well, you have a distinct advantage in that argument, which I tried to
> point out above, in that a Bowazon doesn't start with a bow.

You can get a plain bow at Charsi act 1, easily. That's not all that
different from the "starter javs", either one is an act 1 weapon that
does very little damage. The difference is, a Javazon can kill Hell
Baal with one(quickly, no less), a bowzon won't be doing the same with
an act 1 rogue camp bow.

> Fair enough, that opinion actually came from my Warrior Arenas
> partner. Against me, it's my guru's opinion that seems to hold more
> true, that they hit like a wet noodle.

Well, we were recently nerfed. And even nerfed I can still hit 20k+
against high resil targets...against low resil enemies, 40k+ hits
aren't at all uncommon. Still a huge step down from pre-nerf though,
where I could pull 30k-40k hits on 4.3k resil enemies and could
deliver 100k+ on enemies who tried to PvP in raid gear. I once had a
Sub rogue pop out of stealth, unload his full opener on me, then after
it was all over(and I wasn't anywhere near dead), I hit him with ONE
Death Strike...108k of his life gone in a single GCD. Had another Sub
rogue, with 4.5k resil, once roll a level 1 horde(after being killed
by me 5 times, he hung out after we won TB and kept trying to
interfere with my mining) to accuse me of hacking(lol) because of how
hard I was hitting him. I explained exactly what was going on and he
told me "ur fuckin OP, I can't wait till blood gets nerfed". He was
right, it happened(and was warranted, I don't deny). Of course, the
same nerf hit all tanks, and they fared a lot worse afterwards than
blood did...even nerfed a blood DK can still rank among the top damage
dealers in BGs, in addition to being ridiculously capable of holding
nodes on their own and being immensely tough to kill flag runners.

And a lone melee won't beat me without help, no matter how much
resilience they have, even 2 melee usually won't do it.

> I may concede this point, and I apologize for taking the discussion
> OT, in that case.

OT is still fun, though.

[Xocyll]

Shiflet <rshi...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of

the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Jun 30, 9:31 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>> Shiflet <rshif...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
>> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>> >On Jun 29, 12:18 pm, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>> >> Shiflet <rshif...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
>> >> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>>
>> >> >On Jun 29, 9:21 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> Now I never played a poke-it-with-a-stick Amazon, but I don't think they
>> >> >> get crushing blow as an actual ability, so this involves some twinking?
>>
>> >> >No, as it's available on even easy to get gear. By the time you're
>> >> >facing PIs, even playing strictly solo it's not hard to acquire the
>> >> >runes to make an Obedience, for example. And Goblin Toes I've found
>> >> >plenty of times on my own, without even doing dedicated MF runs.
>>
>> >> Bit hard to actually make it when you're a Single Player, since it's a
>> >> Ladder only runeword.
>>
>> >There are numerous addons that allow the ladder only stuff on single
>> >player, and the vast majority of single players use them. This dude
>> >already said he's using addons like the shared stash feature so it's
>> >not like he's ruled them out or anything.
>>
>> Yeah but as you say there are lots of mods - some of them might have
>> those runewords, others won't.
>
>Pretty much any mod that enables shared stash(as he is using) also
>allows that.

Never actually used a mod that did shared stash.
Most of the mod play I did was during 1.09 and I never heard of a mod
that did that then.

>> When I do play mods I like to try ones that change the gameplay
>> drastically, not just a little tweak.
>
>I'm not talking mods that turn it into a different game, I'm talking
>mods that allow single players access to EVERYTHING that online
>players have, which are by far the most used mods.
>
>> Welcome to the offline Single Player game.
>> I've never even seen a Guillame's Face.
>
>GFace doesn't have different online and offline drop rates.

The point I was making is that the single player isn't going to get all
that many uniques and can't trade ones they do get but can't use for
ones they can use. Or get gifted any.

>> The Hitting is the point I was making.
>> With a 4:3 resolution, the spread _has_ to be wider aiming straight up
>> or straight down the screen than to the sides or especially diagonal.
>> A Wide fan of arrows means that a lot of them are wasted and some of the
>> critters don't get hit at all.
>
>If you aren't hitting multiple mobs with Multi, you're playing
>terribly, end of story. Yes, not every arrow is gonna hit something,
>they're not supposed to. When a plane drops cluster bombs or guy with
>an automatic weapon opens fire on an enemy position, you aren't
>expecting to hit someone or something of value with each bomb in the
>cluster or each bullet in the magazine.

Actually that's exactly why armies train their soldiers to fire in
bursts so they DO get most of the bullets on target.
The exception is suppressive fire which isn't even meant to hit
anything.

When I play a shooter of any kind I hardly ever waste bullets, because I
don't use highly inaccurate weapons and I don't EVER fire full auto.

>> A critter that doesn't get hit, doesn't get chilled, or knocked back
>> or...
>
>And if you're not hitting MOST enemies in your path, as I said, you're
>playing terribly.

Again you miss the point. With the cursor at the very top of the
screen there is still a very wide spread that you can do nothing about.

From any other direction other than N or S you get a tighter spread.

Now if you use a mod that allows higher resolutions that problem goes
away, but in the default 640x480 and 800x600 there's nothing you can do
to tighten the spread firing straight up or down the screen.

>> I had a bit of fun making an Inferno Sorc at one point - maxed out
>> inferno and several +skill items made for one huge jet of flame.
>
>Full screen inferno? I've never messed with Inferno, is there a limit
>on it's range?

There is, but it'll go right to the edge of the screen (possibly right
offscreen, I can't remember exactly - it's been a few years.)

Some 30ish game feet I think.

>> What I'd really wanted at the time and would have loved to have seen in
>> D3, was real power customization - IE being able to choose whether you
>> put a skill point into lengthening the inferno jet or one into widening
>> it.
>
>That's kinda what the runes were meant to do...of course, you're
>limited to 1 rune per skill, so you can only do so much...

Indeed, and not all of them are particularly useful at that.

Sure they can claim, what was it, 2.8 trillion possible skill combos,
but a large number of those combos just don't work.

I'd rather they had concentrated on making a bunch of skills and runes
(or a better customization routine than runes) that would ALL work in
all difficulties.

Hell in one of their video previews or interviews they even mentioned a
melee wizard - can you imagine trying to actually melee with a wizard,
not using any spells to attack? Yeah me neither, cause it wouldn't
work.
Spectral Blade is still a spell even if it is melee range.

It certainly worked for a Sorceress in D2, but a Wizard in D3, yeah
right.

[Shiflet]

On Jul 1, 11:16 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:

> Never actually used a mod that did shared stash.
> Most of the mod play I did was during 1.09 and I never heard of a mod
> that did that then.

Nearly all mods have a way to move items between characters...

> The point I was making is that the single player isn't going to get all
> that many uniques and can't trade ones they do get but can't use for
> ones they can use.  Or get gifted any.

I wasn't referring to trading or gifting, either. As I said, I have
enough GFaces to outfit an army, and they are, almost all of them,
self-found(by someone who doesn't actually do much MF at all). Also,
GFace is a set, not a unique.

> Actually that's exactly why armies train their soldiers to fire in
> bursts so they DO get most of the bullets on target.

Which is what Guided Arrow is for, when you have a specific target.

> The exception is suppressive fire which isn't even meant to hit
> anything.

Actually, suppressive fire is meant to have a chance of hitting anyone
stupid enough to not take cover, which is what Multi is for(and the
enemies make it easy for you by not taking cover).

> When I play a shooter of any kind I hardly ever waste bullets, because I
> don't use highly inaccurate weapons and I don't EVER fire full auto.

Because enemies in shooters actually take cover and try to avoid
getting it, mobs in D2 do not. They just keep walking happily towards
you, no matter how many arrows, javelins, fireballs, frozen orbs,
lightning bolts, tornadoes, lightning sentries, bone spears,
blizzards, blessed hammers, and angry, heavy armed and armored
barbarians, werewolves, and paladins are in their path.

> Again you miss the point.   With the cursor at the very top of the
> screen there is still a very wide spread that you can do nothing about.

It's not that bad, and if you aim right the spread still isn't that
hard to control.

> From any other direction other than N or S you get a tighter spread.

Mildly. And if that wider spread is causing you so much trouble, you
are playing badly...as I stated.

> Now if you use a mod that allows higher resolutions that problem goes
> away, but in the default 640x480 and 800x600 there's nothing you can do
> to tighten the spread firing straight up or down the screen.

I only use 800x600. Fascinatingly, I've never had any problems hitting
MY targets, no matter what direction I was firing.

> There is, but it'll go right to the edge of the screen (possibly right
> offscreen, I can't remember exactly - it's been a few years.)
>
> Some 30ish game feet I think.

Amusing to see, I imagine.

> Indeed, and not all of them are particularly useful at that.
>
> Sure they can claim, what was it, 2.8 trillion possible skill combos,
> but a large number of those combos just don't work.

Yeah, I've always figured their "2.8 trillion viable builds" was no
more true in D3 than it was in D2, saying a barbarian putting 1 in
every single skill then using the rest to max Taunt, Find Potion, and
Grim Ward was a viable build.

> I'd rather they had concentrated on making a bunch of skills and runes
> (or a better customization routine than runes) that would ALL work in
> all difficulties.
>
> Hell in one of their video previews or interviews they even mentioned a
> melee wizard - can you imagine trying to actually melee with a wizard,
> not using any spells to attack?   Yeah me neither, cause it wouldn't
> work.
> Spectral Blade is still a spell even if it is melee range.

I can't imagine a melee wizard being viable, but, in Blizzard's
defense, a wizard attacking in melee is still what most people(me
included) call a melee build, even it is using a spell for it's melee
range attacks. Saying a "melee wizard" doesn't mean "a wizard that
uses no spells at all", no more so than a Barb buffing himself with
Battle Orders/BC/Shout, a pally using Holy Shield and his aura, or a
Druid using his shapeshift and summons precludes them from being melee
builds. Most "melee sorcs" in D2 used Enchant(and often Static Field),
which was a spell, along with defensive spells like Teleport, Energy
Shield, and/or their cold armor of choice...

> It certainly worked for a Sorceress in D2,

Trying playing a D2 melee sorc in hell(or even Nightmare or late
normal) without using any spells at all. Even a Dreamer sorc(which is
certainly not a build for the poor) uses Lightning Mastery for much of
her damage(with the rest coming from Enchant), though being a passive
I suppose you could let that slide.

[Xocyll]

Shiflet <rshi...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Jul 1, 11:16 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>
>> Never actually used a mod that did shared stash.
>> Most of the mod play I did was during 1.09 and I never heard of a mod
>> that did that then.
>
>Nearly all mods have a way to move items between characters...

I have some 7 different mods here that I used back in 1.09.
NONE of them have any way to move items between characters.

>> The point I was making is that the single player isn't going to get all
>> that many uniques and can't trade ones they do get but can't use for
>> ones they can use.  Or get gifted any.
>
>I wasn't referring to trading or gifting, either. As I said, I have
>enough GFaces to outfit an army, and they are, almost all of them,
>self-found(by someone who doesn't actually do much MF at all). Also,
>GFace is a set, not a unique.

How much farming for items do you do?

I've never been much for farming - I just play straight through
repeating only what I had to (from last waypoint) when I've had to quit.
Once I Kill Diablo in Hell Diff, the character is never touched again.

>> Actually that's exactly why armies train their soldiers to fire in
>> bursts so they DO get most of the bullets on target.
>
>Which is what Guided Arrow is for, when you have a specific target.

>> The exception is suppressive fire which isn't even meant to hit
>> anything.
>
>Actually, suppressive fire is meant to have a chance of hitting anyone
>stupid enough to not take cover, which is what Multi is for(and the
>enemies make it easy for you by not taking cover).
>
>> When I play a shooter of any kind I hardly ever waste bullets, because I
>> don't use highly inaccurate weapons and I don't EVER fire full auto.
>
>Because enemies in shooters actually take cover and try to avoid
>getting it, mobs in D2 do not. They just keep walking happily towards
>you, no matter how many arrows, javelins, fireballs, frozen orbs,
>lightning bolts, tornadoes, lightning sentries, bone spears,
>blizzards, blessed hammers, and angry, heavy armed and armored
>barbarians, werewolves, and paladins are in their path.

Even older shooters where enemies don't take cover in any way I don't
use full auto. Unless you're going back to games like DOOM which had no
recoil or penalty of any kind for full auto fire.

>> Again you miss the point.   With the cursor at the very top of the
>> screen there is still a very wide spread that you can do nothing about.
>
>It's not that bad, and if you aim right the spread still isn't that
>hard to control.
>
>> From any other direction other than N or S you get a tighter spread.
>
>Mildly. And if that wider spread is causing you so much trouble, you
>are playing badly...as I stated.

The wide spread means it misses enemies.

>> Now if you use a mod that allows higher resolutions that problem goes
>> away, but in the default 640x480 and 800x600 there's nothing you can do
>> to tighten the spread firing straight up or down the screen.
>
>I only use 800x600. Fascinatingly, I've never had any problems hitting
>MY targets, no matter what direction I was firing.
>
>> There is, but it'll go right to the edge of the screen (possibly right
>> offscreen, I can't remember exactly - it's been a few years.)
>>
>> Some 30ish game feet I think.
>
>Amusing to see, I imagine.

it is indeed.

>> Indeed, and not all of them are particularly useful at that.
>>
>> Sure they can claim, what was it, 2.8 trillion possible skill combos,
>> but a large number of those combos just don't work.
>
>Yeah, I've always figured their "2.8 trillion viable builds" was no
>more true in D3 than it was in D2, saying a barbarian putting 1 in
>every single skill then using the rest to max Taunt, Find Potion, and
>Grim Ward was a viable build.

Although I'll bet you someone has finished normal difficulty with just
such a Barb. :)

>> I'd rather they had concentrated on making a bunch of skills and runes
>> (or a better customization routine than runes) that would ALL work in
>> all difficulties.
>>
>> Hell in one of their video previews or interviews they even mentioned a
>> melee wizard - can you imagine trying to actually melee with a wizard,
>> not using any spells to attack?   Yeah me neither, cause it wouldn't
>> work.
>> Spectral Blade is still a spell even if it is melee range.
>
>I can't imagine a melee wizard being viable, but, in Blizzard's
>defense, a wizard attacking in melee is still what most people(me
>included) call a melee build, even it is using a spell for it's melee
>range attacks. Saying a "melee wizard" doesn't mean "a wizard that
>uses no spells at all", no more so than a Barb buffing himself with
>Battle Orders/BC/Shout, a pally using Holy Shield and his aura, or a
>Druid using his shapeshift and summons precludes them from being melee
>builds. Most "melee sorcs" in D2 used Enchant(and often Static Field),
>which was a spell, along with defensive spells like Teleport, Energy
>Shield, and/or their cold armor of choice...

No but melee does imply they are actually using their weapon, not a
spell, and that's not true of spectral blade which is the same effect
wielding a sword as it is with a wand or staff ot bow or...It's a spell
not a melee attack.

I used to play a Maul sorc back in the day - lots of defensive spells
and the weapon enchanting one, but I killed things by hitting them with
the great big hammer., not using a spell. It was viable in D2, it's not
in D3.

>> It certainly worked for a Sorceress in D2,
>
>Trying playing a D2 melee sorc in hell(or even Nightmare or late
>normal) without using any spells at all. Even a Dreamer sorc(which is
>certainly not a build for the poor) uses Lightning Mastery for much of
>her damage(with the rest coming from Enchant), though being a passive
>I suppose you could let that slide.

No one said they used no spells at all, they just used no _offensive_
spells.

Melee just means they run in and hit things with their weapon.

[Shiflet]

On Jul 1, 4:43 pm, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:

> I have some 7 different mods here that I used back in 1.09.
> NONE of them have any way to move items between characters.

PlugY and Atma both allow it and are by FAR the most common mods
players use.

> How much farming for items do you do?
>
> I've never been much for farming - I just play straight through
> repeating only what I had to (from last waypoint) when I've had to quit.
> Once I Kill Diablo in Hell Diff, the character is never touched again.

I very rarely MF, as I've said several times. My characters are built
for max lethality and max survivability, I do not equip MF gear on my
characters as it requires sacrificing damage or survivability, neither
of which I care to do. So, since I don't use MF gear, I don't devote
much time to MFing.

> Even older shooters where enemies don't take cover in any way I don't
> use full auto.  Unless you're going back to games like DOOM which had no
> recoil or penalty of any kind for full auto fire.

Such as with Multi.

> The wide spread means it misses enemies.

But it's not that much wider, and if you're aiming right, you won't be
missing most enemies. You do understand I play a bowzon, and KNOW what
playing one is like, yes? I am not speaking as someone who doesn't
actually play the class, I've played one greatly, I've SEEN the
spread, and I don't have ANY problems hitting with it. And since
neither of us is using any mods that would make the spread wider or
smaller, it's apparently a matter of skill.

> Although I'll bet you someone has finished normal difficulty with just
> such a Barb. :)

I doubt it. But anyways, I don't consider finishing normal finishing
the game. You could probably do fine in normal D3 with a lot of builds
that aren't viable later on, too.

> No but melee does imply they are actually using their weapon,

No, it implies being close enough to enemies to hit them and be hit by
them.

> I used to play a Maul sorc back in the day - lots of defensive spells
> and the weapon enchanting one, but I killed things by hitting them with
> the great big hammer., not using a spell.  It was viable in D2, it's not
> in D3.

1)Try that same tactic in Hell and get back to me.
2)Try doing it without USING A SPELL like the weapon enchanting one,
which is where almost ALL your damage is coming from...and is equally
effective with a maul as a staff, bow, or sword.

> No one said they used no spells at all, they just used no _offensive_
> spells.

What do you think the weapon enchanting spell is? It's an OFFENSIVE
spell. It's where basically ALL their damage comes from, in fact, if
they're not super geared like a Dreamer.

> Melee just means they run in and hit things with their weapo

No, it doesn't. "Melee (play /ˈmeɪleɪ/, French: mêlée [mɛle], the
French spelling is also quite frequent in English writing), generally
refers to disorganized close combat involving a group of fighters".
Close combat. Not "physical attacks only" combat.

[Xocyll]

Shiflet <rshi...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

I never said you wouldn't hit with it, as you well know.
I said that no matter what you do you can never get the focus tight
enough that a lot of the arrows are missing completely.

Get a narrow group of enemies charging at you straight down the screen
and fully half your arrows are going to miss due to the width of the arc
since it's width is controlled by the distance between your character
and the mouse cursor.
You've got 400 pixels horizontally and only 300 vertically, basic math
says you can only get the vertical arc 75% as tight as the horizontal
arc.

>> Although I'll bet you someone has finished normal difficulty with just
>> such a Barb. :)
>
>I doubt it. But anyways, I don't consider finishing normal finishing
>the game. You could probably do fine in normal D3 with a lot of builds
>that aren't viable later on, too.

Possibly. But then a lot of builds aren't possible at all in Normal
difficulty because you don't get the runes to mod the power to the way
you need until late in the game. Hell there are runes you don't get
until level 60.

>> No but melee does imply they are actually using their weapon,
>
>No, it implies being close enough to enemies to hit them and be hit by
>them.

But no one would call a bowazon a melee fighter, even if she is firing
point blank - she's not using a melee weapon.

>> I used to play a Maul sorc back in the day - lots of defensive spells
>> and the weapon enchanting one, but I killed things by hitting them with
>> the great big hammer., not using a spell.  It was viable in D2, it's not
>> in D3.
>
>1)Try that same tactic in Hell and get back to me.
>2)Try doing it without USING A SPELL like the weapon enchanting one,
>which is where almost ALL your damage is coming from...and is equally
>effective with a maul as a staff, bow, or sword.

Uh I have played melee sorcs in Hell diff.
The enhancement spell, runes, socketed gems etc all add to the damage
and are all valid.
I'm still killing things by hitting them, not firing a spell at them.

>> No one said they used no spells at all, they just used no _offensive_
>> spells.
>
>What do you think the weapon enchanting spell is? It's an OFFENSIVE
>spell. It's where basically ALL their damage comes from, in fact, if
>they're not super geared like a Dreamer.

it enhances the weapon, much as the familiar and magic weapon abilities
in D3 enhance the weapon damage - they aren't spells that attack (well
ok familiar shoots on it's own.)

D2, one of the ice armors will fire back at things that hit you from
range, that doesn't make it an offensive spell since it's cast on YOU.
The weapon enchanting spell similarly is cast on yourself, not on a
target, so it's not an offensive spell.

>> Melee just means they run in and hit things with their weapo
>

>No, it doesn't. "Melee (play /?me?le?/, French: męlée [m?le], the

>French spelling is also quite frequent in English writing), generally
>refers to disorganized close combat involving a group of fighters".
>Close combat. Not "physical attacks only" combat.

Now look up Melee weapon.

[ald]

On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet
<rshi...@charter.net> wrote:

>On Jun 30, 12:53 pm, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, I never said I'd be strafing against PI's, that's what you
>> have Cold/Frozen Arrow for (never preferred the Fire route myself),
>> and Frozen Arrow+Merc+Valk was what I was calling 'decent', I doubt
>> Jab is anymore effective.
>
>Frozen Arrow requires a large skill point investment to be effective,
>which means you're not playing a standard bowzon build, you're playing
>a hybrid bowzon with less points available for the passives/valk. A
>javazon does fine with 1 point jab and the standard build. Also, merc
>isn't very effective vs PIs(unless you're running mercs with Dreams or
>Dragons and such, in which case the untwinked thing is right out the
>window), so they don't drastically increase your kill speed vs PIs,
>whereas an act 2 merc with average gear can make short work of a LI.
>
>> Well, you have a distinct advantage in that argument, which I tried to
>> point out above, in that a Bowazon doesn't start with a bow.
>
>You can get a plain bow at Charsi act 1, easily. That's not all that
>different from the "starter javs", either one is an act 1 weapon that
>does very little damage. The difference is, a Javazon can kill Hell
>Baal with one(quickly, no less), a bowzon won't be doing the same with
>an act 1 rogue camp bow.

Except why in the world would you *buy* a bow, when by the time you
can afford it (and yes, at that point I'm carting *everything* back to
town) you've found at least 2 that are much better?

>> Fair enough, that opinion actually came from my Warrior Arenas
>> partner. Against me, it's my guru's opinion that seems to hold more
>> true, that they hit like a wet noodle.
>
>Well, we were recently nerfed. And even nerfed I can still hit 20k+
>against high resil targets...against low resil enemies, 40k+ hits
>aren't at all uncommon. Still a huge step down from pre-nerf though,
>where I could pull 30k-40k hits on 4.3k resil enemies and could
>deliver 100k+ on enemies who tried to PvP in raid gear. I once had a
>Sub rogue pop out of stealth, unload his full opener on me, then after
>it was all over(and I wasn't anywhere near dead), I hit him with ONE
>Death Strike...108k of his life gone in a single GCD. Had another Sub
>rogue, with 4.5k resil, once roll a level 1 horde(after being killed
>by me 5 times, he hung out after we won TB and kept trying to
>interfere with my mining) to accuse me of hacking(lol) because of how
>hard I was hitting him. I explained exactly what was going on and he
>told me "ur fuckin OP, I can't wait till blood gets nerfed". He was
>right, it happened(and was warranted, I don't deny). Of course, the
>same nerf hit all tanks, and they fared a lot worse afterwards than
>blood did...even nerfed a blood DK can still rank among the top damage
>dealers in BGs, in addition to being ridiculously capable of holding
>nodes on their own and being immensely tough to kill flag runners.

GL against me, 4.3K res? Undergeared ;-p

[Jonathan Ellis]

On Tue, 26 Jun 2012 13:58:29 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet
<rshi...@charter.net> wrote:

>On Jun 26, 3:04 pm, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The character I *really* want to do properly is the one I played online
>> years ago, a conviction/vengeance paladin with a rogue merc (I'm rather
>> partial to the starting rogue just for fun.
>
>Word of warning, Convinction/Vengeance makes for really, really SLOW
>going. You are limited to 1 target at a time, with an attack speed of
>8fpa max, and you will also have much less life leech than a zealot
>would.

Hm, I'm not sure what "8fpa" means. Don't understand all your fancy
acronyms...

But I just got to Nightmare mode, about halfway through Act 1, just
re-rescued Cain, playing on /players 8 all the way. It's getting a bit
difficult and I may have to drop to a lower number unless some better
equipment drops *SOON* - in particular a weapon with much, MUCH better base
damage (to base the Vengeance elemental multiplier off). Baal on /players 8
was hella difficult to take down, almost couldn't see his lifebar moving
(and he kept nuking my mana so for half the fight I was switching to a
1-point Holy Shock aura because at least that doesn't require mana to get
the extra damage from, whereas Conviction's pretty much useless for a solo
pally who has no elemental attacks because of lack of mana to run
Vengeance.)

But I finally took him down, he dropped nothing worth much but at least it
could be sold for decent gold, gambled at Anya's for amulets... and got...

...a random rare amulet with +1 to Paladin Skill Levels (!) and +25% Magic
Find (!!), plus also a decent chunk of Cold Resistance. A very nice gamble
there, I think :-)

Also, dangit, Baal gave me better drops (including a second Nagelring and a
surprisingly nice blue-magic War Scepter with +2 Vengeance, +18 max damage
and +74% Increase Damage, WOW I can actually hurt things much better) when I
went back to him later on /players 1. Such is life.

meanwhile for elemental resistances I'm running Ancient's Pledge runeword in
an Aerin Shield (and have 3 PDiamonds for a future 3- or 4-socket shield
when I next find it) plus various bonuses on the other equipment I have,
most of it still yellow-rare in quality...

So, wondering what the game will throw at me next :-) Just spent an hour
clearing the Cow Level in Normal...

-- Jonathan.

[Shiflet]

On Jul 2, 12:32 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:

> I never said you wouldn't hit with it, as you well know.
> I said that no matter what you do you can never get the focus tight
> enough that a lot of the arrows are missing completely.

...you are not MEANT to hit something with every arrow from Multi,
unless you're in an area packed liked the cow level. Saying all the
arrows aren't hitting anything thus there's something wrong with the
skill is like saying Zeal is broken because you can't hit an enemy on
the opposite side of the screen with it.

> Get a narrow group of enemies charging at you straight down the screen
> and fully half your arrows are going to miss due to the width of the arc
> since it's width is controlled by the distance between your character
> and the mouse cursor.
> You've got 400 pixels horizontally and only 300 vertically, basic math
> says you can only get the vertical arc 75% as tight as the horizontal
> arc.

Which isn't enough to make a difference, if you know how to aim
properly. I have a bowazon, I have no problems hitting what needs to
be hit with Multi, no matter WHAT direction I'm shooting.

> Possibly.  But then a lot of builds aren't possible at all in Normal
> difficulty because you don't get the runes to mod the power to the way
> you need until late in the game.  Hell there are runes you don't get
> until level 60.

And in D2, you don't have the skill points in normal to play a lot of
builds that you can play in hell.

> But no one would call a bowazon a melee fighter, even if she is firing
> point blank - she's not using a melee weapon.

Nooooo they don't call a bowazon a melee fighter because she doesn't
NEED to be at melee range to fight. She can fight as effectively(or
moreso, really) at range, so she is not melee. A smiter or zealot or
avenger CANNOT hurt an enemy at range using their primary attacks, so
they are melee fighters.

> Uh I have played melee sorcs in Hell diff.
> The enhancement spell, runes, socketed gems etc all add to the damage
> and are all valid.
> I'm still killing things by hitting them, not firing a spell at them.

Do it without Enchant. Runes and gems add such miniscule damage than
if you don't have PMH, a mob will likely regen the damage they do
before your second swing connects. Without Enchant(an offensive
spell), you WILL NOT be playing a melee sorc in hell and killing
things with it.

> it enhances the weapon, much as the familiar and magic weapon abilities
> in D3 enhance the weapon damage - they aren't spells that attack (well
> ok familiar shoots on it's own.)

So? As long as you have to be in melee range to use it, you're
meleeing.

> D2, one of the ice armors will fire back at things that hit you from
> range, that doesn't make it an offensive spell since it's cast on YOU.
> The weapon enchanting spell similarly is cast on yourself, not on a
> target, so it's not an offensive spell.

Offensive Spell=Spell designed primarily to increase your damage
dealt. If that is the purpose of the spell, it is an offensive spell,
no matter WHO it is cast on. Enchant enhances your damage and AR, and
provides no other benefit. That makes it an offensive spell. Or for
another example, look at the pally OFFENSIVE aura tree. Auras like
Might, Conc, and Fana are auras on yourself, not your enemy, yet the
game specifically NAMES them as OFFENSIVE auras. Why? Because even
though you don't cast them at an enemy or use them on an enemy, only
yourself and your party, they are meant to increase your damage, just
like Enchant.
Defensive Spell=Spell designed to reduce/negate damage or increase
your chance to escape from enemies, things that are primarily intended
to reduce damage taken, not deal damage.

Being cast on yourself doesn't make Enchant not an offensive spell,
it's simply an offensive spell cast on yourself to deal damage to
enemies, rather than cast AT them to deal damage. It is still most
definitely an offensive spell.

> Now look up Melee weapon.

A weapon that is primarily intended to be used in close combat, not
used at range(even though some can function as both, a spear or Bowie
knife is generally considered a melee weapon, even though you CAN
throw them effectively)

> Xocyll

[Shiflet]

On Jul 2, 1:00 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> GL against me, 4.3K res? Undergeared ;-p

Resil has pretty steep diminishing returns, the diff between 4.3k and
5k actually isn't all that much.

[Shiflet]

On Jul 5, 7:37 pm, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hm, I'm not sure what "8fpa" means. Don't understand all your fancy
> acronyms...

FPA=Frames per attack. Vengeance's animation takes 8 frames. D2 runs
24 frames in 1 second, so the maximum speed with Vengeance is 3 swings
per second. Smite maxes at 6 fpa, or 4 smites per second. Zeal can get
down to 4 fpa, giving it 6 hits per second.

> (and he kept nuking my mana so for half the fight

Yeah, that's another downside of Vengeance(unless you have mana
leech), it's mana cost increases per level(8.7 mana per swing at lvl
20 Vengeance)...Smite and Zeal only cost 2 mana no matter how high
their skill level is.

[ald]

You'd have a very tough time convincing me *or* the Horde's main
Healer in TB on our realm of that ;-)

[Shiflet]

On Jul 6, 12:46 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> You'd have a very tough time convincing me *or* the Horde's main
> Healer in TB on our realm of that ;-)

It's pretty clear to me from both in game info and "casual
observance". I know for a fact I hit full arena geared people for only
very slightly less than I do people in full honor gear, and believe
me, I've fought enough of them to know. You know why that is? Because
of diminishing returns. You could ditch some of that resil, and I flat
out guarantee you, you'd barely notice it was gone if at all. Once you
get around 4k you don't gain much from getting more...when my DK
finally upgraded to a pvp helm(I hated the looks and refused to wear
it until transmog when I could make it look nicer) I gained 300
resilience. Didn't make a noticeable change in the damage I took at
all.

[Xocyll]

Shiflet <rshi...@charter.net> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>On Jul 2, 12:32 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:
>
>> I never said you wouldn't hit with it, as you well know.
>> I said that no matter what you do you can never get the focus tight
>> enough that a lot of the arrows are missing completely.
>
>...you are not MEANT to hit something with every arrow from Multi,
>unless you're in an area packed liked the cow level. Saying all the
>arrows aren't hitting anything thus there's something wrong with the
>skill is like saying Zeal is broken because you can't hit an enemy on
>the opposite side of the screen with it.

Doesn't change the FACT that you are going to miss more if they come
vertically because you can't narrow the arc as much.

This is a fact, I don't know why you keep arguing about it.

>> Get a narrow group of enemies charging at you straight down the screen
>> and fully half your arrows are going to miss due to the width of the arc
>> since it's width is controlled by the distance between your character
>> and the mouse cursor.
>> You've got 400 pixels horizontally and only 300 vertically, basic math
>> says you can only get the vertical arc 75% as tight as the horizontal
>> arc.
>
>Which isn't enough to make a difference, if you know how to aim
>properly. I have a bowazon, I have no problems hitting what needs to
>be hit with Multi, no matter WHAT direction I'm shooting.

Really? 25% isn't enough to make a difference? Bullshit!

Once again you speak in generalities and ignore the point - yes you can
hit the targets, but that isn't ever going to change the FACT that
you're going to be wasting MORE ARROWS firing up or down the screen
because the firing arc is wider and all the skill in the world CAN'T
make it any tighter.

No one ever said you're going to miss everything or even any of the
targets,l I said then and I say now, a whole bunch of those arrows are
going to fly right past the critters coming at you because you can't aim
them at the critter, only in it's general direction in an arc.

Strafe on the other hand fires DIRECTLY at each enemy, so that same
group charging down the screen directly at you, get hit with EVERY arrow
fired.

>> Possibly.  But then a lot of builds aren't possible at all in Normal
>> difficulty because you don't get the runes to mod the power to the way
>> you need until late in the game.  Hell there are runes you don't get
>> until level 60.
>
>And in D2, you don't have the skill points in normal to play a lot of
>builds that you can play in hell.

Nonsense, unless you're going to say that your "build" has 20 points
into a level 30 skill.

In D2 you get all the skills by level 30, and you incrementally improve
them as the levels increase and as the difficulty increases.
By the time you get to hell, you'll have a good load of points into
those skills, even if you haven't maxed them yet.
In D3, some of those runes have fairly drastic affects on the skills,
and you have no access to them at all until the level you finally get
access, sometimes level 60.
That's a pretty drastic change, especially considering that level 60 is
also the level cap.

>> But no one would call a bowazon a melee fighter, even if she is firing
>> point blank - she's not using a melee weapon.
>
>Nooooo they don't call a bowazon a melee fighter because she doesn't
>NEED to be at melee range to fight. She can fight as effectively(or
>moreso, really) at range, so she is not melee. A smiter or zealot or
>avenger CANNOT hurt an enemy at range using their primary attacks, so
>they are melee fighters.

And a Hammerdin isn't a melee warrior despite the fact they are wielding
a melee weapon, because they aren't using it as a weapon, they're using
a spell.

A melee fighter is someone using melee weapons in melee.

>> Uh I have played melee sorcs in Hell diff.
>> The enhancement spell, runes, socketed gems etc all add to the damage
>> and are all valid.
>> I'm still killing things by hitting them, not firing a spell at them.
>
>Do it without Enchant. Runes and gems add such miniscule damage than
>if you don't have PMH, a mob will likely regen the damage they do
>before your second swing connects. Without Enchant(an offensive
>spell), you WILL NOT be playing a melee sorc in hell and killing
>things with it.

Why would I, since among other things I have no interest in playing a
melee sorc post 1.09.

Offensive spells DIRECTLY cause damage to the enemy.

It doesn't matter what Blizzard happened to name the skill panes on one
or more characters, since they didn't invent any of this.

I can cast Enchant all day long, and If I don't hit anything with my
weapon, it never does any damage to anything.
That's not an offensive spell.

The Paladin aura (Holy Fire/freeze/shock)that causes damage to
everything in range IS an offensive spell, even if it's technically cast
on the Paladin himself.
Might on the other hand is not, it enhances your weapon damage, but if
you don't hit anything, it does NOTHING.
Thorns, again it does nothing unless you're attacked - kinda like how
the wall socket doesn't attack you, but you get shocked when you stick a
fork in it.

And then there's Blessed Aim, an aura that does no damage whatsoever, it
just boosts your accuracy with your weapon, yet Blizzard also has that
under Offensive Auras.

See the problem?
Blizzard doesn't get to redefine words just because they crammed skills
into categories they don't fit in.

If they want to they can add a spell to the offensive pane of the
paladin skills that turns your sword into a Tuna Fish and nothing else,
but that won't make it actually BE offensive.

>> Now look up Melee weapon.
>
>A weapon that is primarily intended to be used in close combat, not
>used at range(even though some can function as both, a spear or Bowie
>knife is generally considered a melee weapon, even though you CAN
>throw them effectively)

But if you throw it, it becomes a ranged weapon.
You can after all hold and stab someone with a throwing knife, but
that's not what it's designed for.

Hell for that matter you can hit someone with a bow/crossbow, but that
doesn't magically make it a melee weapon.

[ald]

300, no, I could see that not making much difference, but I know
(admittedly, from the same "casual observance") that upgrading from
full Ruthless to full Cata has made a *big* difference in my
survivability. You play a DK, you're not the focus of the entire
opposing team. Healers *are*, and especially ones as well known to
said opposing team as Woobie (Llane, US) or myself.

[Shiflet]

On Jul 6, 9:02 am, Xocyll <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote:

> Doesn't change the FACT that you are going to miss more if they come
> vertically because you can't narrow the arc as much.

This would matter if enemies come at you single file. They do not. If
you're not hitting with most of your arrows, you're either bad, or
there's few enemies. Period.

> Really?  25% isn't enough to make a difference?  Bullshit!

It isn't enough to make a difference if you're not bad at using Multi.

> Once again you speak in generalities and ignore the point - yes you can
> hit the targets, but that isn't ever going to change the FACT that
> you're going to be wasting MORE ARROWS firing up or down the screen
> because the firing arc is wider and all the skill in the world CAN'T
> make it any tighter.

And if you aim with any skill you won't NEED to make it any tighter.

> No one ever said you're going to miss everything or even any of the
> targets,l I said then and I say now, a whole bunch of those arrows are
> going to fly right past the critters coming at you because you can't aim
> them at the critter, only in it's general direction in an arc.

And the exact same applies to Multi from any direction, arrows are
going to miss no matter where they're coming from(unless in a really
densely packed zone), as Multi isn't MEANT to hit with all the arrows.
If you are using the skill properly(using multi against 1 or 2 mobs is
not using it properly), most arrows will hit something.

> Strafe on the other hand fires DIRECTLY at each enemy, so that same
> group charging down the screen directly at you, get hit with EVERY arrow
> fired.

And you stand there immobile while it does it...then of course there's
the risk of your strafe deciding to shoot at the enemies to the far
left of you or behind you, rather than the one directly coming at you.

> Nonsense, unless you're going to say that your "build" has 20 points
> into a level 30 skill.

Most builds do...

> In D2 you get all the skills by level 30, and you incrementally improve
> them as the levels increase and as the difficulty increases.

And many of the skills are crap until you have them and at least one
synergy maxed it.

> That's a pretty drastic change, especially considering that level 60 is
> also the level cap.

Yeah having some of them unlocked at max level only is stupid. No D2
skills required level 99 to get.

> And a Hammerdin isn't a melee warrior despite the fact they are wielding
> a melee weapon, because they aren't using it as a weapon, they're using
> a spell.

Not to mention a hammerdin isn't a melee fighter because HE DOESN"T
HAVE TO BE IN MELEE RANGE TO KILL. Compared to Guided Arrow or
Fireball for example, hammers are short range, but they can still
easily kill things from outside melee range. Don't believe me? Duel my
hammerdin with a build that has to be in melee range to do damage.
Frenzy barb, shifter druid, smiter, take your pick...but it won't
matter, cause even if you use a spear or polearm, you'll still be dead
before you get in range to even touch me.

> Why would I, since among other things I have no interest in playing a
> melee sorc post 1.09.

...because they're not viable post 1.09, I assume? Unless you're well
geared of course(and even then, you'll be using spells to do it).

> Offensive spells DIRECTLY cause damage to the enemy.

Uhh no, they don't. Offensive spells are ANY spells that are used to
increase your damage dealt, rather it's by casting it at an enemy, or
enhancing the damage you do via other means. This has been the
definition in pretty much everything I've ever played, be it video
games or tabletop rpgs.

> It doesn't matter what Blizzard happened to name the skill panes on one
> or more characters, since they didn't invent any of this.

No, but since pretty much every RPG and game company I'm familiar with
uses the same definition, I think I'm gonna go with it.

> I can cast Enchant all day long, and If I don't hit anything with my
> weapon, it never does any damage to anything.
> That's not an offensive spell.

Yes, that IS an offensive spell. I can cast Icebolt all day long too,
and if I don't hit anything with it, it never does damage to anything.
So I guess Icebolt, or Lightning, or Fireball aren't offensive spells
either? Both them and Enchant require me hitting something to do
damage, imagine that. One requires hitting with my spell-enhanced
weapon, one requires me hitting with a spell, neither is useful if
nothing is hit.

> The Paladin aura (Holy Fire/freeze/shock)that causes damage to
> everything in range IS an offensive spell, even if it's technically cast
> on the Paladin himself.
> Might on the other hand is not, it enhances your weapon damage, but if
> you don't hit anything, it does NOTHING.

If Fireball doesn't hit anything, it does nothing either.

> Thorns, again it does nothing unless you're attacked - kinda like how
> the wall socket doesn't attack you, but you get shocked when you stick a
> fork in it.

Glacial Spike does nothing if you're not hitting anything, either.

> And then there's Blessed Aim, an aura that does no damage whatsoever, it
> just boosts your accuracy with your weapon, yet Blizzard also has that
> under Offensive Auras.

Umm, yes, it IS an Offensive Aura, because it's SOLE PURPOSE is to
increase your damage(by increasing your chance to hit an enemy)

> See the problem?

Yes, it's you being unaware of the difference between "offensive" and
"defensive".

> Blizzard doesn't get to redefine words just because they crammed skills
> into categories they don't fit in.

Blizzard aren't redefining words, they're using the standard
defintion. Only you are trying to redefine anything here.

> If they want to they can add a spell to the offensive pane of the
> paladin skills that turns your sword into a Tuna Fish and nothing else,
> but that won't make it actually BE offensive.

That wouldn't make it be offensive(or defensive) because if the spell
does nothing else, it is not a spell meant to enhance your damage.
Offensive Spells are spells meant to INCREASE YOUR DAMAGE, be it
directly or indirectly. That IS the accepted definition, and it is the
one Blizzard follows. You can argue otherwise, and you can also argue
that the Earth is flat, and you will be equally wrong on both counts.

> But if you throw it, it becomes a ranged weapon.
> You can after all hold and stab someone with a throwing knife, but
> that's not what it's designed for.

Yes, as I said, they're considered melee weapons because their primary
function, their designed usage, is fighting in melee range with them.
Javelins and throwing knives are the opposite side of the coin. You
CAN melee with them, but their primary purpose is as ranged weapons,
so that's what they are usually considered.

> Hell for that matter you can hit someone with a bow/crossbow, but that
> doesn't magically make it a melee weapon.

Because that is not it's primary purpose.

[ald]

On Fri, 6 Jul 2012 22:16:20 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet
<rshi...@charter.net> wrote:

>And the exact same applies to Multi from any direction, arrows are
>going to miss no matter where they're coming from(unless in a really
>densely packed zone), as Multi isn't MEANT to hit with all the arrows.
>If you are using the skill properly(using multi against 1 or 2 mobs is
>not using it properly), most arrows will hit something.
>
>> Strafe on the other hand fires DIRECTLY at each enemy, so that same
>> group charging down the screen directly at you, get hit with EVERY arrow
>> fired.
>
>And you stand there immobile while it does it...then of course there's
>the risk of your strafe deciding to shoot at the enemies to the far
>left of you or behind you, rather than the one directly coming at you.

*As well as* the one directly coming at you, and, you gotta problem
wit' dat? ;-) And using Strafe against 1 or 2 mobs *is* using it
properly, if you have enough mana leech.

[Shiflet]

On Jul 8, 12:37 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> *As well as*

Except, not always. I've had Strafe completely ignore enemies near me
in favor of enemies not near me. I prefer to control at least the
direction I'm shooting.

> And using Strafe against 1 or 2 mobs *is* using it
> properly, if you have enough mana leech.

...I said unless you're doing something like using MULTI against 1 or
2 mobs(which isn't using it correctly) hitting shouldn't be an issue.
Multi=/=Strafe.

[ald]

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:42:17 -0700 (PDT), Shiflet
<rshi...@charter.net> wrote:

>On Jul 8, 12:37 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>> *As well as*
>
>Except, not always. I've had Strafe completely ignore enemies near me
>in favor of enemies not near me. I prefer to control at least the
>direction I'm shooting.

I can't say I ever remember seeing that, and I much prefer Strafe to
multi, so use it pretty much exclusively, i.e. all the time.

>> And using Strafe against 1 or 2 mobs *is* using it
>> properly, if you have enough mana leech.
>
>...I said unless you're doing something like using MULTI against 1 or
>2 mobs(which isn't using it correctly) hitting shouldn't be an issue.
>Multi=/=Strafe.

Right, just continuing the ages old Multi vs. Strafe argument. Meh,
it's a tradition ;-)

[Shiflet]

On Jul 13, 2:44 am, ald <103175.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:

> I can't say I ever remember seeing that, and I much prefer Strafe to
> multi, so use it pretty much exclusively, i.e. all the time.

I can. Been more than 1 occasion where Strafe chose to not shoot the
enemy actually attacking me, instead turning around to shoot something
half a screen behind me. Having used both of them extensively, I can
safely say Strafe is superior when there's very few targets...Multi is
almost always better if you're wanting to maximize kill speed for
larger packs(and/or wanting to retain your mobility).

[Jonathan Ellis]

*snip of thread*

Well so far, so good. Was able to get through Normal mode and Act 1 NM
wearing little else but +MF-type gear. Just getting to the point where I
kind of may be needing to either turn the /players down, or turn the MF down
and invest in survivability-type gear. A couple of useful items have been
dropping, nothing particularly great though.

Like... Right now I'm in a 3-PTopaz Breastplate and a 3-PTopaz Great Helm.
Shield is an Aerin Shield with Ancients Pledge runeword (okay, okay, I
needed the resists at once and didn't have enough PDiamonds available at the
time.) Amulet is a gambled rare with +1 pally skills and a decent +MF
percentage. Rings are a pair of Nagelrings with +30 and +17 MF. Boots and
gloves each have over +20 MF and one resistance over +20 (both are yellow
rares). Belt and Weapon are the only items with no +MF, but the belt is a
rare a couple of resistances over +20 and a faster hit recovery. Weapon is a
rare Divine Scepter (just cubed it up from a War Scepter thanks to the
recipe upgrading Normal to Exceptional item class) with about +94% extra
damage, a flat damage bonus, a bit of extra lightning damage and a couple of
resists.

Merc is wearing a Ring Mail and a Full Helm each with 3 normal Topaz, and
wielding a 4-socket longbow with perfect gems (1 each of Ruby, Sapphire,
Topaz and Emerald). She's killing things fairly well, although beginning to
appear a bit fragile up against Claw Vipers or any enemy that has Extra Fast
plus something else that makes them stronger.

Right now I guess my biggest need is for a better weapon - higher base
damage, that is. Although I'm also about 30 points short of the Fire resist
I want, in NM mode at least. But the main need is for a really good 1-handed
weapon with decent base damage.

It would also be nicer to know what places, if any, have the best chance of
dropping gems - would really like to cube up more pgems, particular diamonds
for shields and topaz for MF (to stick in better quality armor, then
relegate my current stuff to the PlugY shared stash for lower-level
characters to MF with.)

I have 5 PDiamonds ready for use in the next 4-socket pally shield I find,
for resistance purposes. I actually *have* a 4-socket Heraldic Shield, but
it's only a Heraldic Shield and I really hope for a better quality shield to
beef up - Exceptional at least, hopefully.

A couple of really nice looking unique armors dropped recently. Spirit
Shroud and an ethereal Silks of the Victor - the latter has a defence of
over 700 (!) compared to the fact that most of the armor I'm seeing is lucky
to break 100. A bit scared to use the latter in case it falls apart on me
(obviously not got a Zod to socket it with). Spirit Shroud would be nice but
I'd have to lose some MF capability to use it. Would that be wise at this
juncture or would I be better sticking to MF in the hope of finding better?

Best rune so far is a KO (dropped by one of Fangskin's entourage) and a
couple of DOLs, also cubed up one SHAEL (possibly for runeword purposes but
haven't decided which one to make) and have 2 or more of everything of SOL
or lower.

It strikes me that Diablo is one of those games where, if you don't have
good gear, it's much harder to get good gear than if you already do have
good gear, then you'll find loads more that you yourself no longer need...

-- Jonathan.

[Shiflet]

On Jul 13, 12:07 pm, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It would also be nicer to know what places, if any, have the best chance of
> dropping gems

Best thing to do for gems is just farm the cow level, at least once
you can clear it quickly. Since gems are white items there really
isn't a "best" place for them, you just want an area with LOTS of mobs
that can be killed quickly/easily.

> A couple of really nice looking unique armors dropped recently. Spirit
> Shroud and an ethereal Silks of the Victor - the latter has a defence of
> over 700 (!) compared to the fact that most of the armor I'm seeing is lucky
> to break 100. A bit scared to use the latter in case it falls apart on me
> (obviously not got a Zod to socket it with).

Keep in mind, DEFENSE doesn't actually make a real huge difference in
the grand scheme of things. For example, a paladin with 22k defense
has about a 5% less chance of being hit than a paladin with 8k
defense. 14000 extra defense only provides a 5% difference...so see
why a difference of a couple hundred is fairly negligible? Plus,
Vipermagi is really more of a caster armor anyways. Plus if you really
wanna put it to use you can put it on your merc if you want, eth items
don't lose durability on them.

> Spirit Shroud would be nice but
> I'd have to lose some MF capability to use it. Would that be wise at this
> juncture or would I be better sticking to MF in the hope of finding better?

If you're melee, I'd go Spirit Shroud, simple cause it has Cannot Be
Frozen, which I consider mandatory for any melee build I play.

> It strikes me that Diablo is one of those games where, if you don't have
> good gear, it's much harder to get good gear than if you already do have
> good gear, then you'll find loads more that you yourself no longer need...

Depends on the situation and what you call good gear. Cause magic find
gear(even the best magic find gear) is usually not "good" compared to
actual combat gear. So even if you have a nearly perfect set of MF
gear, when it comes to leveling/rushing/dueling/whatever, you will be
seriously outclassed by someone running a combat set. Take me for
example...my sorceress isn't a PvP character, but she would absolutely
tear apart any MF geared sorc she fought...and she will also take down
enemies faster, if she's hosting Baal/Chaos runs or farming cows for
socketable items/gems(ie, stuff not affected or even negatively
affected by MF). But, the MF sorc is more likely to find uniques or
rares than my sorc is, cause my sorc is not rocking much MF. So MY
gear is better for combat, while an MF sorc's is better for finding
stuff(I would consider even the best MF stuff as "bad gear" since I
play to maximize combat effectiveness). Plus, most people usually MF
to get gear other characters can use(or trade/sell if you play
online), not just stuff for that specific character, so even if that
character doesn't need "good" gear anymore, the level 20 barb you have
in act 3 certainly might.