Why *exactly* was Nelson Mandela Arrested in 1964 ?
nobody here
it's undisputed that Nelson Mandela:
1: advocated the need for "armed action"
2: was the commander of the armed wing of the ANC
3: was sentenced to life inprisonment in 1964
for "involvement in planning armed action"
can anyone point to a valid reference as to
what "planning armed action" actually involved ?
an acquaintance swears that Mandela was personally
advocating planting explosives in shopping centers
I'd normally think this hyperbole
but the references I've seen just seem to talk blandly
about "armed action" without mentioning anything specific
Gerald Clough
I think it would be silly to presume that "armed action" in such a
setting would not include bombing realtively soft targets of
opportunity. The man with the package is one of the few effective
delivery systems available to a movement that cannot engage in a
conventional fight. As to exactly what tactical scenario he might have
pitched, no statement could be taken as true without a credible citation.
And he's certainly not the only 20th century participant in such things
to graduate to statesman.
--
Gerald Clough
"Nothing has any value, unless you know you can give it up."
Scott Leckey
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:2Hz5zwWldS0J:www.gov.za/reports/2003/trc/
5_3.pdf+holding+the+anc+accountable&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
"nobody here" <no-...@false-address.net> wrote in message
news:c2bb83$oit$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Gary G. Taylor
You are presupposing that an authoritarian, Fascist government, needs
concrete evidence to arrest and convict someone they don't like. For all
that it matters, the charge could have been "mopery with intent to snood"
and the outcome would have been the same.
--
Gary G. Taylor * Rialto, CA
gary at donavan dot org / http:// geetee dot donavan dot org
"The two most abundant things in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." --Harlan Ellison
Dan Hartung
> stepping very lightly here - trying to not detonate a flame war...
>
> it's undisputed that Nelson Mandela:
>
> 1: advocated the need for "armed action"
> 2: was the commander of the armed wing of the ANC
> 3: was sentenced to life inprisonment in 1964
> for "involvement in planning armed action"
No, in fact it is not undisputed, at least in the wording that you have
chosen. All three of those statements are very disputable. You may wish
to refer to more primary sources and restate your argument.
> can anyone point to a valid reference as to
> what "planning armed action" actually involved ?
This was one of the better-documented political trials of the last
century. I'm sure you can find your own references if you look.
> an acquaintance swears that Mandela was personally
> advocating planting explosives in shopping centers
>
> I'd normally think this hyperbole
One might, without primary sources.
> but the references I've seen just seem to talk blandly
> about "armed action" without mentioning anything specific
You may wish to start with determining the specific charges under which
people were arrested, the charges for which they were convicted, and the
specific actions which were alleged. As stated, you've merely created a
dandy setup for a flame war, which you so preciously demur.
Deborah Stevenson
>No, in fact it is not undisputed, at least in the wording that you have
>chosen. All three of those statements are very disputable. You may wish
>to refer to more primary sources and restate your argument.
And to take it to a group where it's relevant.
--
Deborah Stevenson
dste...@OBSTACLESuiuc.edu
[eliminate OBSTACLES to email me]
Lee Ayrton
> You are presupposing that an authoritarian, Fascist government, needs
> concrete evidence to arrest and convict someone they don't like. For all
> that it matters, the charge could have been "mopery with intent to snood"
> and the outcome would have been the same.
"Mopery" seems to me to be one of those great under-documented slang
words, the kind that everyone supposes that they know, but few editors
have put into dictionaries.
The supposed definition is "to mope in motion, to dawdle, to loiter"
but, as I said above, documentation is fairly scant on the ground. The
Word Detective did a little successful legwork at:
<URL:http://www.word-detective.com/011502.html#mopery>
He notes an alternate nonsense definition given in _The Revenge Of The
Nerds_: "To expose oneself to a blind person". Google informs me that
Thomas Pynchon uses the word in his works in the "loitering" sense.
But what caught my eye was Gary' use of the appendage of "... with intent
to snood". A snood is a tie, ribbon or net used to bind up hair,
as a verb it is the act of employing a snood. It makes a nice bit of
unusual-sounding nonsense that falls nicely from the tongue. The
appendage that I grew up hearing was "...with intent to gawk." Googling a
bit shows that others share this wording along with the timid-sounding
"... to creep", the less-savory "... to fester", and the redundant "... to
loiter".
Lee "June! I'm going out for a little mopery..." Ayrton
Gary G. Taylor
>
> But what caught my eye was Gary' use of the appendage of "... with intent
> to snood". A snood is a tie, ribbon or net used to bind up hair,
> as a verb it is the act of employing a snood. It makes a nice bit of
> unusual-sounding nonsense that falls nicely from the tongue. The
> appendage that I grew up hearing was "...with intent to gawk." Googling a
> bit shows that others share this wording along with the timid-sounding
> "... to creep", the less-savory "... to fester", and the redundant "... to
> loiter".
>
I have also seen "snood" defined as a conical cover for something. My first
acquaintance with the term described a conical sheet-metal cover which
bridged the gap between the lamp and the apparatus of a movie projector;
its function was to keep the (very bright) light from spilling out.
Olivers
>
> But what caught my eye was Gary' use of the appendage of "... with
> intent to snood". A snood is a tie, ribbon or net used to bind up
> hair, as a verb it is the act of employing a snood. It makes a nice
> bit of unusual-sounding nonsense that falls nicely from the tongue.
> The appendage that I grew up hearing was "...with intent to gawk."
> Googling a bit shows that others share this wording along with the
> timid-sounding "... to creep", the less-savory "... to fester", and
> the redundant "... to loiter".
In this realm, the term is oft connected with a serious violation of the
criminal statutes, "Mopery in a Public Conveyance", and the word has always
borne the dawdling/loitering shade of meaning.
What's the origin of the NYC/LOng Island-limited "Mope", a petty criminal?
Dows a mope loiter on street corners? Or on the stairs to every tenement
in the middle of the block, a better venue for mopery?
TM "Dawdling through life, he loiters here at the end." Oliver
Lee Ayrton
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
> > But what caught my eye was Gary' use of the appendage of "... with
> > intent to snood". A snood is a tie, ribbon or net used to bind up
> > hair, as a verb it is the act of employing a snood. It makes a nice
> > bit of unusual-sounding nonsense that falls nicely from the tongue.
[snip]
> I have also seen "snood" defined as a conical cover for something. My
> first acquaintance with the term described a conical sheet-metal cover
> which bridged the gap between the lamp and the apparatus of a movie
> projector; its function was to keep the (very bright) light from
> spilling out.
So I see, it is indeed industry-specific slang used by projectionists.
Unfortunately my own exposure to that part of the business was pretty much
limited to hauling film cans up narrow stairs to the booth and trying to
perfect my changeovers. I wasn't half bad.
Like so many industry-specific terms it is probably impossible to
determine where the word came from and why it was coined (and there's
probably a dozen or so wildly different "really true" stories to explain
it), but I wonder if it is related to the "snoot" from the production end
of the business. A snoot is a sheet metal device (generally an open-ended
cylinder attached to a flat plate, the plate fits the ears that would
normally hold barndoors) that reduces the diameter of the beam issuing
from a light. Same function, slightly different words.
Lee "Motor start" Ayrton
Lee Ayrton
> In this realm, the term is oft connected with a serious violation of the
> criminal statutes, "Mopery in a Public Conveyance", and the word has
> always borne the dawdling/loitering shade of meaning.
I ran into several references to ordinances or laws that allowed one to be
charged with mopery, but it was always in the vague past or fuzzy
elsewhere. It leaves me wondering if mopery laws are more legend than
fact.
> What's the origin of the NYC/LOng Island-limited "Mope", a petty
> criminal? Dows a mope loiter on street corners? Or on the stairs to
> every tenement in the middle of the block, a better venue for mopery?
_The Oxford Dictionary of Word Histories_ (Glynnis Chantrell, ed.; Oxford
University Press, 2002) traces "mope" as a noun meaning "fool, simpleton"
back to the mid 16th century and suggests a Scandinavian origin ~mopa~,
`to sulk'. I have to wonder if the television show _NYPD Blue_ isn't
responsible for the criminal sense.
Moke wasn't part of my rural Eastern Connecticut vocabulary, but jamoke
wasn't unknown (my maternal grandparents may have used it occasionally,
but I don't have clear memories on that). I wondered if "moke" was a
diminution of "jamoke", but jamoke apparently isn't old enough: It dates
back to the 19th century but only took it's current form in the 1940s.
2. Questions & Answers: Jamoke
<URL:http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-jam1.htm>
Commands: Use arrow keys to move, '?' for help, 'q' to quit, '<-' to go
back.Questions & Answers: Jamoke
Nick Spalding
<Pine.NEB.4.58.04...@panix1.panix.com>:
> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Olivers wrote:
>
> > In this realm, the term is oft connected with a serious violation of the
> > criminal statutes, "Mopery in a Public Conveyance", and the word has
> > always borne the dawdling/loitering shade of meaning.
>
> I ran into several references to ordinances or laws that allowed one to be
> charged with mopery, but it was always in the vague past or fuzzy
> elsewhere. It leaves me wondering if mopery laws are more legend than
> fact.
>
>
> > What's the origin of the NYC/LOng Island-limited "Mope", a petty
> > criminal? Dows a mope loiter on street corners? Or on the stairs to
> > every tenement in the middle of the block, a better venue for mopery?
>
> _The Oxford Dictionary of Word Histories_ (Glynnis Chantrell, ed.; Oxford
> University Press, 2002) traces "mope" as a noun meaning "fool, simpleton"
> back to the mid 16th century and suggests a Scandinavian origin ~mopa~,
> `to sulk'. I have to wonder if the television show _NYPD Blue_ isn't
> responsible for the criminal sense.
I have never heard of this usage in rightpondia. The meaning I attach
to mope is to be miserable as expressed in the song from The Yeoman of
the Guard, I have a song to sing o:
POINT
I have a song to sing, O!
ELSIE
Sing me your song, O!
POINT
It is sung to the moon
By a love-lorn loon,
Who fled from the mocking throng, O!
It's a song of a merryman, moping mum,
Whose soul was sad, and whose glance was glum,
Who sipped no sup, and who craved no crumb,
As he sighed for the love of a ladye.
Heighdy! heighdy!
Misery me--lack-a-day-dee!
He sipped no sup, and he craved no crumb,
As he sighed for the love of a ladye!
etc.
Incidentally one of the best bits of music Sullivan ever wrote.
--
Nick Spalding
Charles Wm. Dimmick
> Moke wasn't part of my rural Eastern Connecticut vocabulary, but jamoke
> wasn't unknown (my maternal grandparents may have used it occasionally,
> but I don't have clear memories on that). I wondered if "moke" was a
> diminution of "jamoke", but jamoke apparently isn't old enough: It dates
> back to the 19th century but only took it's current form in the 1940s.
Ah, but I learned Moke early on as meaning jackass or donkey.
Common usage in the Late Middle Ages [not that I'm that old].
[Term seems to have originated among gypsies in Wales].
Charles Dy Moke
--
"And some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the
chucky stanes to pieces wi' hammers, like sae mony
road-makers run daft -- they say it is to see how
the warld was made!"
Bermuda999
>On Sun, 7 Mar 2004, Gary G. Taylor wrote:
>
>> You are presupposing that an authoritarian, Fascist government, needs
>> concrete evidence to arrest and convict someone they don't like. For all
>> that it matters, the charge could have been "mopery with intent to snood"
>> and the outcome would have been the same.
>
>"Mopery" seems to me to be one of those great under-documented slang
>words, the kind that everyone supposes that they know, but few editors
>have put into dictionaries.
>The supposed definition is "to mope in motion, to dawdle, to loiter"
>but, as I said above, documentation is fairly scant on the ground.
Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang (Vol II):
"mopery n. ...a hypothetical absurd or trivial offense"
It lists uses in this sense from 1907 to the present, with stops at Dashiell
Hammett ("The Thin Man"), Raymond Chandler, the TV show "Police Woman", Oui
magazine, William Safire, the New Yorker and John Gotti.
Deborah Stevenson
>Lee Ayrton wrote:
>> Moke wasn't part of my rural Eastern Connecticut vocabulary, but jamoke
>> wasn't unknown (my maternal grandparents may have used it occasionally,
>> but I don't have clear memories on that). I wondered if "moke" was a
>> diminution of "jamoke", but jamoke apparently isn't old enough: It dates
>> back to the 19th century but only took it's current form in the 1940s.
>Ah, but I learned Moke early on as meaning jackass or donkey.
>Common usage in the Late Middle Ages [not that I'm that old].
>[Term seems to have originated among gypsies in Wales].
Sounds likelier to be a corruption of "moch," meaning "pig."
L0nD0t.$t0we11
"Pig" would make the Mini Moke vehicle origin a bit harder to
understand than would something along the lines of a beast of
burden.
Ugly little Mini Moke
Are you just a British Joke
--
Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them...
Nick Spalding
<ku93c.32887$I_3....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>:
> Lee Ayrton wrote:
>
>
> > Moke wasn't part of my rural Eastern Connecticut vocabulary, but jamoke
> > wasn't unknown (my maternal grandparents may have used it occasionally,
> > but I don't have clear memories on that). I wondered if "moke" was a
> > diminution of "jamoke", but jamoke apparently isn't old enough: It dates
> > back to the 19th century but only took it's current form in the 1940s.
>
> Ah, but I learned Moke early on as meaning jackass or donkey.
> Common usage in the Late Middle Ages [not that I'm that old].
> [Term seems to have originated among gypsies in Wales].
>
> Charles Dy Moke
Common usage in my young days in England.
--
Nick Spalding
Olivers
> So I see, it is indeed industry-specific slang used by projectionists.
> Unfortunately my own exposure to that part of the business was pretty
> much limited to hauling film cans up narrow stairs to the booth and
> trying to perfect my changeovers. I wasn't half bad.
>
> Like so many industry-specific terms it is probably impossible to
> determine where the word came from and why it was coined (and there's
> probably a dozen or so wildly different "really true" stories to
> explain it), but I wonder if it is related to the "snoot" from the
> production end of the business. A snoot is a sheet metal device
> (generally an open-ended cylinder attached to a flat plate, the plate
> fits the ears that would normally hold barndoors) that reduces the
> diameter of the beam issuing from a light. Same function, slightly
> different words.
>
Some of the female gender her may aid me, but do I not recall from the 40s
(descended from much earlier usage) that a "snood" is a small head covering
once favored by women of medest demeanor or affiliation with one of several
conservative (BOR invoked)?
TM "Women's suits all downhill since '47" Oliver
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:Xns94A8609...@216.196.97.132:
Grandma, when attired for Holiday Church Events, her hair done
up in a pulled-back and curled bob-length do, would pin a lacey
little cap on the top of her head, canted towards the back so
strategically placed curls on top and in front could look sweet
and girlish. She had a drawer with various colors, styles (most
looked the same to me, but she knew the difference) and sizes
(see prior note) and usually called them her caps, but once in a
while said something like "Has anyone seen my pink and coral
snood ?"
--
TeaLady / mari conroy
"The adjectivisation of our nounal units will be greeted with
disconcertion by elders" Simon on the status of English as she
is spake.
"Stated to me for a fact. I only tell it as I got it. I am
willing to believe it. I can believe anything." Sam Clemens
Jeff Lanam
wrote:
>Some of the female gender her may aid me, but do I not recall from the 40s
>(descended from much earlier usage) that a "snood" is a small head covering
>once favored by women of medest demeanor or affiliation with one of several
>conservative (BOR invoked)?
>
I'm not of the requested sex (words have gender, people have sex), but
you are correct. You'll also see them at Renaissance Faires.
Another use of the word "snood' is the name of a highly-addictive
computer game, one in which no penguins are harmed. See
www.snood.com.
Karen J. Cravens
news:Xns94A8C21...@130.133.1.4:
> Grandma, when attired for Holiday Church Events, her hair done
> up in a pulled-back and curled bob-length do, would pin a lacey
> little cap on the top of her head, canted towards the back so
> strategically placed curls on top and in front could look sweet
> and girlish. She had a drawer with various colors, styles (most
> looked the same to me, but she knew the difference) and sizes
> (see prior note) and usually called them her caps, but once in a
> while said something like "Has anyone seen my pink and coral
> snood ?"
They date back at least to the Renaissance:
though I think they started out as embroidered fabric (there being little
to no knitting/crocheting), and the book I've got (_Elizabethan Costuming
for the Years 1550-1580_) calls them escoffions or cauls.
(Lacking sufficient hairage at the time, I decided on a coif and flat hat
instead. But it's bad enough wearing a lined bodice and chemise, even in
September, so I generally end up hatless. By period standards, I wouldn't
be particularly respectable. By Faire standards, of course, I'm decidedly
Puritan.)
--
Karen J. Cravens
Jonathan Miller
news:Xns94A8C21...@130.133.1.4...
> > recall from the 40s (descended from much earlier usage) that
> > a "snood" is a small head covering once favored by women of
> > medest demeanor or affiliation with one of several
> > conservative (BOR invoked)?
> >
identification and understanding. Perhaps "conservative" should be deleted,
but the identification of the sect or sects involved could be helpful.
>
> Grandma, when attired for Holiday Church Events, her hair done
> up in a pulled-back and curled bob-length do, would pin a lacey
> little cap on the top of her head, canted towards the back so
> strategically placed curls on top and in front could look sweet
> and girlish. She had a drawer with various colors, styles (most
> looked the same to me, but she knew the difference) and sizes
> (see prior note) and usually called them her caps, but once in a
> while said something like "Has anyone seen my pink and coral
> snood ?"
A snood is also a "hat" that is open at both ends that can be pulled over
the head of an Afghan Hound or Saluki to keep ears out of water dish, food
bowl, dirt, etc. Important for show dogs, not for real ones. Come to think
of it, some real Salukis show. Well, at least did 15 years or so ago when I
paid attention. Oh, wait, I own one. But she's never been snooded. Well,
anyway, real Salukis sometimes show. Maybe real Afghans do too, but I don't
recall ever meeting a real Afghan. (Maybe it's time to get out of here
before I get into a fight, since the Ban on Dog Baiting is probably stronger
than the Ban on Politics.)
Jon "two posts in one" Miller
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:oYKdnRWhtLP...@comcast.com:
> "TeaLady (Mari C.)" <spres...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns94A8C21...@130.133.1.4...
>> Olivers <ol...@LOSETHIScalpha.com> wrote in
>> news:Xns94A8609...@216.196.97.132:
>>
>> > Some of the female gender her may aid me, but do I not
>> > recall from the 40s (descended from much earlier usage)
>> > that a "snood" is a small head covering once favored by
>> > women of medest demeanor or affiliation with one of
>> > several conservative (BOR invoked)?
>> >
> I protest here. You're deleting information that could aid
> in identification and understanding. Perhaps "conservative"
> should be deleted, but the identification of the sect or
> sects involved could be helpful.
>
>
Didn't delete a thing that pointed to sects etc. as far as the
post I was answering, sorry. You could google the thread if
your newsreader doesn't have Olivers original post, which
included that text to which he was responding. And etc., back
to the start of the thread.
However, I am fairly certain that the post by Olivers was the
1st post that mentioned snood as article of clothing.
Mary Shafer
wrote:
> Some of the female gender her may aid me, but do I not recall from the 40s
> (descended from much earlier usage) that a "snood" is a small head covering
> once favored by women of medest demeanor or affiliation with one of several
> conservative (BOR invoked)?
A snood is a bag, usually made of netting, that holds some of the
hair. It's a hair hammock that sits at the nape of the neck. It's a
way of holding longer hair back, out of the way, without pinning it
up. Definitely a '40s item, although it's been around a long time.
Here's a photo and more info:
http://www.hairboutique.com/tips/tip199.htm
Not really a cap or head covering, though.
Mary "krazy kat had a snood in at least one episode"
--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer
mil...@qnet.com
Olivers
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:27:56 -0600, Olivers <ol...@LOSETHIScalpha.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Some of the female gender her may aid me, but do I not recall from
>> the 40s (descended from much earlier usage) that a "snood" is a small
>> head covering once favored by women of medest demeanor or affiliation
>> with one of several conservative (BOR invoked)?
>
> A snood is a bag, usually made of netting, that holds some of the
> hair. It's a hair hammock that sits at the nape of the neck. It's a
> way of holding longer hair back, out of the way, without pinning it
> up. Definitely a '40s item, although it's been around a long time.
>
> Here's a photo and more info:
> http://www.hairboutique.com/tips/tip199.htm
>
> Not really a cap or head covering, though.
>
That's what I wuz a'lookin for (and have so often found in Mary's posts and
ripostes, horizon to horizon, and from higher altitudes than most of us
achieve, her horizons are broader). My Mom wore'em back in the 40s with
her chignon/bun/whatever and thaose great Joan Crawford suits.
I see'em among the Mennonite farm wives from nearabouts and in some of the
women of a similar but more communal group which has settled out by Elm
Mott with extensive farming, fabrication and construction interests, sort
of "Post Industrial Revolution Mechanized Mennonites".
TM "Sunday was more'n enough churching for me." Oliver
TeaLady (Mari C.)
news:Xns94AA4DC...@216.196.97.132:
Hmm, what my grandma would sometimes call a "snood" was a
fancier, flatter, mostly lace version - and she wore it higher
than the nape of her neck. Perhaps she was muddling her
millinery same as she muddled her old wives' tales. Her hair
was never long enough for a snood as described above except as a
young child - middle teen.
The link was great, and so was the description. Thank you, i
have been finely educated.
Louise Bremner
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 09:27:56 -0600, Olivers <ol...@LOSETHIScalpha.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Some of the female gender her may aid me, but do I not recall from the 40s
> > (descended from much earlier usage) that a "snood" is a small head covering
> > once favored by women of medest demeanor or affiliation with one of several
> > conservative (BOR invoked)?
>
> A snood is a bag, usually made of netting, that holds some of the
> hair. It's a hair hammock that sits at the nape of the neck. It's a
> way of holding longer hair back, out of the way, without pinning it
> up. Definitely a '40s item, although it's been around a long time.
>
> Here's a photo and more info:
> http://www.hairboutique.com/tips/tip199.htm
>
> Not really a cap or head covering, though.
A luxuriantly-tressed lad I was at university with in the early 70s (in
Britain) told me of his horror at being threatened with a snood during
workshop training. Not just the hair-net that the lesser-tressed were
made to wear, but a full snood. Pink.
________________________________________________________________________
Louise "snoody tale" Bremner (log at gol dot com)
If you want a reply by e-mail, don't write to my Yahoo address!
Marc Reeve
More than one. IIRC (sadly, my Krazy Kat collection was in The Box Of
Books That Disappeared in our last move) the snood craze ended when
Ignatz wrapped one around a brick prior to delivering it to Krazy in the
usual fashion.
Marc "geography rather distinctive in Coconino County" Reeve
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m