I need magic incantation for a power conditioner
jmfbahciv
installed between the power line coming into the house and the
circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
in a cyclic manner.
I left the spec so the new owners had it but didn't make
a copy of it.
Now I'm trying to get one installed in this house but nobody
knows what I'm talking about.
We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
can tell the electrician what to put in?
/BAH
Hans-Christian Becker
Constant Voltage Transformer?
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_voltage_transformer#AC_voltage_stabilizers>
From what have gathered they have largely gone out of fashion,
even though they have some real benefits, at least for what
is on the secondary side.
Makes me regret I never picked up the behemoth I saw in the
recycling bin a few years ago ...
--
Dr. Hans-Christian Becker
'96 VN750 SM5TLH KG6POK
Uppsala, Sweden
Christian Brunschen
>installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>
>Now I'm trying to get one installed in this house but nobody
>knows what I'm talking about.
>
>We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
>ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
>can tell the electrician what to put in?
A quick Google Search suggests that 'Power Conditioner', 'Line
Conditioner' and 'Power Line Conditioner' are terms used for that typed of
device.
Best of success,
>/BAH
// Christian Brunschen
Dave Garland
> I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
> installed between the power line coming into the house and the
> circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
> from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
> in a cyclic manner.
The term seems to cover surge protection and/or voltage stabilization.
For surge protection, it would be something like
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=PMP1X
at a couple hundred bucks for the part. I think a bunch of other
companies make them, too.
If voltage stabilization is the need, Grainger's catalog page of
voltage stabilizers (your electrician should know who Grainger is):
http://tinyurl.com/afcqqb
Since those things run in the neighborhood of $1.50/VA you'd save a
lot of money just putting one on the particular circuit you want to
condition, rather than the whole house.
Dave
jmfbahciv
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
>> installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>> circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
>> from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
>> in a cyclic manner.
>
> The term seems to cover surge protection and/or voltage stabilization.
>
> For surge protection, it would be something like
> http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=PMP1X
> at a couple hundred bucks for the part. I think a bunch of other
> companies make them, too.
I don't remember paying that much for the part. 1.36KG seems to be
heavy. The size is about right.
>
> If voltage stabilization is the need, Grainger's catalog page of
> voltage stabilizers (your electrician should know who Grainger is):
> http://tinyurl.com/afcqqb
> Since those things run in the neighborhood of $1.50/VA you'd save a
> lot of money just putting one on the particular circuit you want to
> condition, rather than the whole house.
>
> Dave
Nope. Everybloody thing has a computer or some kind of electronics
these days. What's a VA? I want to condition just about every
circuit including all the 220V lines.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
I know but the electricians nor the fixit guy knows what I'm talking
about. IIRC, the title of the one-page spec I had in southboro
was mumbledy surge protector. It also stopped the huge fluctuations
of voltage.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> In article <gm9co...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
>> installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>> circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
>>from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
>> in a cyclic manner.
>>
>> I left the spec so the new owners had it but didn't make
>> a copy of it.
>>
>> Now I'm trying to get one installed in this house but nobody
>> knows what I'm talking about.
>>
>> We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
>> ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
>> can tell the electrician what to put in?
>
> Constant Voltage Transformer?
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_voltage_transformer#AC_voltage_stabilizers>
Doesn't sound like it. I did no maintenance (there was a red light
that was supposed to go off if the device got fried and there was
definitely no motor.
>
> From what have gathered they have largely gone out of fashion,
> even though they have some real benefits, at least for what
> is on the secondary side.
>
> Makes me regret I never picked up the behemoth I saw in the
> recycling bin a few years ago ...
>
Thanks for the help.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
I couldn't look at the grainger one. I'll have to go to the library for
that and I'm currently blocked in the house. Getting moby jacks put in
the basement to replace the 3 bent ones and adding about 10 more.
Thanks.
/BAH
Hans-Christian Becker
>Hans-Christian Becker wrote:
>> In article <gm9co...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>> I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
>>> installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>>> circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
>>>from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
>>> in a cyclic manner.
>>>
>>> I left the spec so the new owners had it but didn't make
>>> a copy of it.
>>>
>>> Now I'm trying to get one installed in this house but nobody
>>> knows what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>> We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
>>> ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
>>> can tell the electrician what to put in?
>>
>> Constant Voltage Transformer?
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_voltage_transformer#AC_voltage_stabilizers>
>
>Doesn't sound like it. I did no maintenance (there was a red light
>that was supposed to go off if the device got fried and there was
>definitely no motor.
Oops, sorry, I probably did not check the wikipedia page close
enough. I was thinking of devices which run close to magnetic
saturation of the core. Essentially they look like big transformers
and do little except sit around and hum.
But as has been pointed out, I would expect one capable of handling
the power required for a house to be _big_ and expensive. At
least with today's copper prices!
Michael Black
I remember when a friend bought one cheap at a hamfest, and never
bothered to take it out of the car trunk for a long time. Something
about giving better traction, but I can't remember now whether that
was a joke or not.
Michael
Hans-Christian Becker
>I don't remember paying that much for the part. 1.36KG seems to be
>heavy. The size is about right.
In that case I have pointed you the completely wrong direction---
what I was thinking of is in the order of 5--10 lb per Amp, I
would guesstimate.
A surge protector would remove voltage spikes, but would do little
to keep the mains voltage stable.
>> If voltage stabilization is the need, Grainger's catalog page of
>> voltage stabilizers (your electrician should know who Grainger is):
>> http://tinyurl.com/afcqqb
... this is probably what I was thinking first.
>these days. What's a VA? I want to condition just about every
A VA is a Volt-Amp, which is the apparent AC power. Since voltage
and current are not necessarily in phase, one VA can be anything
from 0 W to 1W (real power).
http://shorl.com/grekylonuproga (wikipedia)
You are (probably) not paying your utility company for the
reactive power since it is never consumed by you, but large
reactive loads are a pain in the neck for utilities since
the cause (real) resistive losses in the power lines.
All of the above said with the caveat that I am not an
electrical engineer.
Hans-Christian Becker
Lars Poulsen
>>> I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
>>> installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>>> circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
>>> from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
>>> in a cyclic manner.
>>> We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
>>> ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
>>> can tell the electrician what to put in?
Hans-Christian Becker wrote:
>> Constant Voltage Transformer?
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_voltage_transformer#AC_voltage_stabilizers>
jmfbahciv wrote:
> Doesn't sound like it. I did no maintenance (there was a red light
> that was supposed to go off if the device got fried and there was
> definitely no motor.
The device that you are looking for is a Constant Voltage Transformer.
It is completely maintenance free. As the name says, it is a
transformer. It is designed in such a manner that the magnetic flux
in the core is saturated, and thereby limits the output. The energy
cost of this, according to the Wikipedia article is about 4% of the
power that passes through it.
You may have some problems getting it installed while maintaining
electric code compliance, since it needs to be after the power
meter that is the boundary between the electric company and your
house, but before the circuit breaker box splits your power to
the various circuits in your house. To fit in that place, it needs
to be a rather large device.
More commonly, people install these on a single circuit, such as
the feed to a computer rack. In that case, you can plug it into
a 20A outlet, and then plug the computers into the outlet that
is built into the transformer housing.
I came across these devices some 33 years ago, when I was working
on electric power plant control systems. The power plant people
specified a CVT for every outlet in the computer room, and it paid
for itself the day that a plant electrician accidentally routed
380V to the 220V circuit for the computer room outlets during the
commissioning period. They are indeed pretty magical.
/ Lars Poulsen
Lars Poulsen
>>> I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
>>> installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>>> circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
>>> from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
>>> in a cyclic manner.
>>> We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
>>> ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
>>> can tell the electrician what to put in?
Hans-Christian Becker wrote:
>> Constant Voltage Transformer?
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_voltage_transformer#AC_voltage_stabilizers>
jmfbahciv wrote:
> Doesn't sound like it. I did no maintenance (there was a red light
> that was supposed to go off if the device got fried and there was
> definitely no motor.
The device that you are looking for is a Constant Voltage Transformer.
Lars Poulsen
>>> I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
>>> installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>>> circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
>>> from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
>>> in a cyclic manner.
>>> We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
>>> ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
>>> can tell the electrician what to put in?
Hans-Christian Becker wrote:
>> Constant Voltage Transformer?
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_voltage_transformer#AC_voltage_stabilizers>
jmfbahciv wrote:
> Doesn't sound like it. I did no maintenance (there was a red light
> that was supposed to go off if the device got fried and there was
> definitely no motor.
The device that you are looking for is a Constant Voltage Transformer.
William Hamblen
The power conditioners I've seen in computer rooms were large, expensive
and unwieldy, not the sort of thing you'd expect to be put in a residence.
Maybe you had a power factor corrector, which is a big capacitor in
a box. It is supposed to keep your home's power factor closer to 1.00.
It might save on your electricity bill.
A man I used to work with had lived in Honduras for a while in the '60s
where his father was a mining engineer. The voltage to the house was
unreliable. His dad put a big autotransformer on the lighting circuits
to manually adjust for brownouts. You couldn't run anything more than
electric lights without overloading the whole country, apparently.
Bud
Peter Flass
>
> Makes me regret I never picked up the behemoth I saw in the
> recycling bin a few years ago ...
>
My motto is "you never regret the 'stuff' you don't leave in the
recycling bin."
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
CBFalconer
> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Hans-Christian Becker wrote:
>>> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
>>>> installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>>>> circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
>>>> from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
>>>> in a cyclic manner.
>>>> ...
>>>> We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
>>>> ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
>>>> can tell the electrician what to put in?
>>>
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_voltage_transformer#AC_voltage_stabilizers>
>>
>> that was supposed to go off if the device got fried and there was
>> definitely no motor.
>
> The device that you are looking for is a Constant Voltage Transformer.
> It is completely maintenance free. As the name says, it is a
> transformer. It is designed in such a manner that the magnetic flux
> in the core is saturated, and thereby limits the output. The energy
> cost of this, according to the Wikipedia article is about 4% of the
> power that passes through it.
It is also highly inefficient when operating outside its designed
load. They tend to input constant power, regardless of output.
You also need to look out for wave forms, because they tend to
output a more-or-less square wave. Versions with filters (to keep
the sine wave shape) are more expensive.
--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.
CBFalconer
>
... snip ...
>
> I know but the electricians nor the fixit guy knows what I'm
> talking about. IIRC, the title of the one-page spec I had in
> southboro was mumbledy surge protector. It also stopped the
> huge fluctuations of voltage.
Sola was the sole manufacturer until their patents ran out (which
was by 1965 or so).
Morten Reistad
Hans-Christian Becker <h...@fki030.fki.uu.se> wrote:
>In article <gm9co...@news2.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>I had something, that the electrician called a power conditioner,
>>installed between the power line coming into the house and the
>>circuit breaker box. This prevented the voltage inside the house
>>from varying drastically; IIRC, the voltage varied from 115V-125+V
>>in a cyclic manner.
>>
>>I left the spec so the new owners had it but didn't make
>>a copy of it.
>>
>>Now I'm trying to get one installed in this house but nobody
>>knows what I'm talking about.
>>
>>We talked about that piece of gear here ~8 years, maybe more,
>>ago. Do any of you remember what the thing is called so I
>>can tell the electrician what to put in?
>
>Constant Voltage Transformer?
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_voltage_transformer#AC_voltage_stabilizers>
>
>From what have gathered they have largely gone out of fashion,
>even though they have some real benefits, at least for what
>is on the secondary side.
Seems like what I remember.
>Makes me regret I never picked up the behemoth I saw in the
>recycling bin a few years ago ...
Ditto. Lots of high power gear that would have been useful.
I would really have liked a few good, large isolation transformers
as well. They run at $2k+ now.
They also give a more efficient (but more demanding) load on the
grid, because the phase angle of the load is corrected away from
the mess that modern, underengineered peecee powers make.
You may actually see that on your power bill, if the meter
is a good one.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
>> jmfbahciv wrote:
>> The term seems to cover surge protection and/or voltage stabilization.
>>
>> For surge protection, it would be something like
>> http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=PMP1X
>> at a couple hundred bucks for the part. I think a bunch of other
>> companies make them, too.
>
>I don't remember paying that much for the part. 1.36KG seems to be
>heavy. The size is about right.
A regulated trafo is expensive if it is for the whole house.
>
>> If voltage stabilization is the need, Grainger's catalog page of
>> voltage stabilizers (your electrician should know who Grainger is):
>> http://tinyurl.com/afcqqb
>> Since those things run in the neighborhood of $1.50/VA you'd save a
>> lot of money just putting one on the particular circuit you want to
>> condition, rather than the whole house.
>>
>> Dave
>
>Nope. Everybloody thing has a computer or some kind of electronics
>these days. What's a VA? I want to condition just about every
>circuit including all the 220V lines.
VA is a volt-ampere. You may think that the term "watt" is appropriate.
And for resistive loads, that is correct. Like heaters and light bulbs
with filaments, electric stoves etc.
There are two other loads, where the volt*ampere product is higher than
the effect you transfer. That happens because this is alternating current,
and the highest current does not follow the highest voltage. With
inuctive loads the current always trails the voltage. Think motors,
everything from AC units to toys. The phase angle can vary, mostly
depending on load and start/stop behavious.
Then we have the capacitive load, generated by all of these stepper-
transformers. Think chargers, peecees, tevees, stereos, game boxes.
They have a little capacitor burst-charging from the mains, where there
is either pulse-fed to a lower voltage system with another capacitor;
or a few hundred Hz of AC is made, and a small transformer then makes
a lower voltage, which is again rectified. The last version is for the
stuff needing 10W or more. The first one is grossly inefficient, but is
cheap, and suffices for a simple 1W charger device.
These devices have a slightly trailing load when they are under low
load, but go radically leading when they come under load, and the first
capacitor they have come under stress.
The grid does not like these devices at all. They load the grid when
the voltage is low, so they draw a lot of unnecessary current. This
is why you always must design circuits and buy hardware using VA.
If your peecee draws most of the current at 40 volts, rising curve
(and the cheapo ones do this) then they will draw 1A for a 40W load.
But you have to design the hardware for 120 volts, so you end up needing
to design for 120 VA while you only get 40 W. The meters measure some
in-between value; which is pretty close to the actual load you put on
the grid.
This also shows on your power bill. You pay for the load you put
on the grid. An active, regulated transformer system can fix a lot
of this, so you may get to move the max load point up to 90V with
peecee powers, and ditto for motors in the other direction.
If you plot the curve from the grid, it is not a sine wave. it
may want to be one, but it is pretty deformed.
People in hydro power stations, where there is very little noise from
the generating side, can hear the load pretty exactly. I have gone
the tours, and concur. The "cooking load" at 1600 sounds even and
soothing, but the TV load in the evenings sounds ugly.
-- mrr
Dave Garland
> I couldn't look at the grainger one. I'll have to go to the library for
> that
Looks like that was an unstable link. But I really doubt that's what
you were thinking of, anyhow. As others have noted, it's a big,
specialized, transformer made by Sola and others. For a house, it
would likely weigh hundreds of pounds and cost thousands of dollars.
I've never seen one (of any size) except powering a single, sensitive,
piece of equipment.
I'm thinking it's gotta be a whole house surge protector that you
remember.
Dave
jmfbahciv
Possibly. The fixit guy said that the electrician now knows what
he needs to get. Another side effect of the device in Southboro
was that a power failure was "clean". I no longer saw the dimming
and brightening several times of light bulbs just before a power
failure occurred.
/BAH
sidd
whole house power conditioner
wes...@gmail.com
> Possibly. The fixit guy said that the electrician now knows what
> he needs to get. Another side effect of the device in Southboro
> was that a power failure was "clean". I no longer saw the dimming
> and brightening several times of light bulbs just before a power
> failure occurred.
Power conditioning is a layman's term that covers various functions.
A term that really means nothing when one is solving problems or
discussing technically. Power conditioner is a term used when a
person really does not know what that 'box' does.
Voltage stabilization. Harmonics. Filters. Load balancing. Surge
protection. Each involves a different solution. No magic power
conditioner solves all. Even the power supply in a computer is a
power conditioner.
To eliminate dimming lights, a power conditioner would be larger
than the breaker box. To operate as a filter for all appliances, it
would also be as large and very heavy.
Some factories operate a large synchronous motor to fix power
factor. Just another power conditioner.
Dimming lights were more likely eliminated when the electrician also
tightened loose wires. Find discussion of 'open neutral' to learn
what most likely caused dimming and brightening lights.
What are you trying to solve? If dimming lights, then fix the
problem. Too many want to solve symptoms with magic boxes rather than
eliminate the problem. There is no magic box to solve that dimming
and brightening.
What were dimensions of that power conditioner? Where was it
attached? What held it in place? You said it had a light (or two?)
that was always illuminated?
jmfbahciv
> whole house power conditioner
that's what I said but they didn't seem to understand that. They seemed
to finally understand when I told them the device I wanted was to be
placed between the power line coming into the house and the circuit
breaker box. I seem to be educating the electricians in this area
now.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> On Feb 4, 6:20 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> Possibly. The fixit guy said that the electrician now knows what
>> he needs to get. Another side effect of the device in Southboro
>> was that a power failure was "clean". I no longer saw the dimming
>> and brightening several times of light bulbs just before a power
>> failure occurred.
>
> Power conditioning is a layman's term that covers various functions.
> A term that really means nothing when one is solving problems or
> discussing technically. Power conditioner is a term used when a
> person really does not know what that 'box' does.
>
> Voltage stabilization. Harmonics. Filters. Load balancing. Surge
> protection. Each involves a different solution. No magic power
> conditioner solves all. Even the power supply in a computer is a
> power conditioner.
>
> To eliminate dimming lights, a power conditioner would be larger
> than the breaker box.
Mine wasn't.
> To operate as a filter for all appliances, it
> would also be as large and very heavy.
>
Mine wasn't.
> Some factories operate a large synchronous motor to fix power
> factor. Just another power conditioner.
No motor involved.
>
> Dimming lights were more likely eliminated when the electrician also
> tightened loose wires.
the problem that was solved was the great voltage variations coming into
the house.
> Find discussion of 'open neutral' to learn
> what most likely caused dimming and brightening lights.
>
> What are you trying to solve? If dimming lights, then fix the
> problem. Too many want to solve symptoms with magic boxes rather than
> eliminate the problem. There is no magic box to solve that dimming
> and brightening.
>
Spoken like an engineer.
> What were dimensions of that power conditioner?
I thought I wrote that. IIRC, it was 8"x2"x3" maybe smaller.
>Where was it
> attached?
On the side of the breaker box between the power line feed into the
house and the breaker box.
What held it in place?
I don't know. I can't remember if it was attached to the board or
the box.
> You said it had a light (or two?)
> that was always illuminated?
One red light that shone all the time.
/BAH
krw
Well, this is what engineers do for food.
> > What were dimensions of that power conditioner?
>
> I thought I wrote that. IIRC, it was 8"x2"x3" maybe smaller.
>
> >Where was it
> > attached?
>
> On the side of the breaker box between the power line feed into the
> house and the breaker box.
>
> What held it in place?
>
> I don't know. I can't remember if it was attached to the board or
> the box.
>
> > You said it had a light (or two?)
> > that was always illuminated?
>
> One red light that shone all the time.
Oh, good grief. You've been had. It sounds like a "Watt Saver".
It doesn't do anything you think it does. In fact, it doesn't do
anything.
Ahem A Rivets Shot
krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> Oh, good grief. You've been had. It sounds like a "Watt Saver".
What is a "Watt Saver" ?
--
C:>WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/
Dave Garland
> In article <gmel...@news6.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol says...>
>> I thought I wrote that. IIRC, it was 8"x2"x3" maybe smaller.
>> On the side of the breaker box between the power line feed into the
>> house and the breaker box.
>> One red light that shone all the time.
>
> Oh, good grief. You've been had. It sounds like a "Watt Saver".
> It doesn't do anything you think it does. In fact, it doesn't do
> anything.
>
Sounds like a description of a whole house surge protector to me.
http://sales.apttvss.com/surgeassure/SA_Cutsheets/TE1C40.pdf
http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=PMP1X
But that would NOT stabilize voltage (other than to chop peaks). I
suspect she misremembers that part.
Dave
krw
ste...@eircom.net says...>
> krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>
> > Oh, good grief. You've been had. It sounds like a "Watt Saver".
>
> What is a "Watt Saver" ?
Power factor corrector. It's *supposed* to save energy by
"correcting" the power factor. Even if it did what it was supposed
to, it does nothing.
krw
dave.g...@wizinfo.com says...>
Whole house surge supressors can be put inside the panel. There is
no need for them to be added outside and the idiot light is, well,
for idiots.
wes...@gmail.com
> I thought I wrote that. IIRC, it was 8"x2"x3" maybe smaller.
> On the side of the breaker box between the power line feed into the
> house and the breaker box.
> One red light that shone all the time.
Every fact suggests a 'whole house' protector ... except one. A
properly installed 'whole house' protector must have two lights; one
for each phase. Lights report something important.
Possible that it was a single phase protector - only provided
protection for half the house such as the LA-302 shown in:
http://www.nooutage.com/LightningSurgeProt.htm
Some examples of standard protection for everything in a house:
http://www.smarthome.com/4870.HTML
http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?a=b&item=6931
http://www.dale-electric.com/detail?itemnumber=IG1240RC
http://www.lightningrodparts.com/surge.html
Lowes sells a Cutler-Hammer version - to actually touch one. Any
properly sized 'whole house' protector starts about 50,000 amps.
A box of that size makes a direct lightning strike irrelevant. But
only if the box connects hort (ie 'less than 10 foot') to earth
ground. Protector simply diverts a typically 20,000 amp lightning
strike into earth. Energy is harmlessly dissipated in earth. It is a
connecting device made effective by what is also essential: a short
earthing connection that meets and exceeds post 1990 National
Electrical Code requirements. Other details apply. But without that
earthing, a protector will not do much.
Long time and respected manufacturers of these devices include
Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, General Electric, Keison, Cutler-Hammer,
and Square D. All and others are benchmark names for reliable
electrical devices.
wes...@gmail.com
> that's what I said but they didn't seem to understand that. They seemed
> to finally understand when I told them the device I wanted was to be
> placed between the power line coming into the house and the circuit
> breaker box.
No useful protector is located in series as you described. A
protector connects to AC mains just like a light bulb. It only taps
onto existing wires.
Nothing sits between AC power and the load. A device located
between the power line and circuit breaker box would have to stop or
absorb surges. Protectors do not stop surges. Or the device would be
massive to perform filtering, voltage regulation, etc. How you
described the connection confused some.
If it was a surge protector, then it connected each wire short (ie
'less than 10 feet') to earth only during a surge. From
http://www.telebyteusa.com/primer/ch6.htm
> Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground.
> Once a threatening surge is detected, a lightning protection device
> grounds the incoming signal connection point of the equipment
> being protected. Thus, redirecting the threatening surge on a
> path-of-least resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
> Any lightning protection device must be composed of two
> "subsystems," a switch which is essentially some type of switching
> circuitry and a good ground connection-to allow dissipation of the
> surge energy.
Dave Garland
> Whole house surge supressors can be put inside the panel. There is
> no need for them to be added outside and the idiot light is, well,
> for idiots.
Maybe they can, but the first of those I linked to has a mounting
diagram that shows it being mounted *outside* the panel. And it has
lights, too. Don't ask me, I didn't design it. Most portable surge
protectors have lights, too.
Dave
krw
dave.g...@wizinfo.com says...>
The ones I've seen mount in place of a breaker. Lights pretty much
are a gee-wiz factor on panel mounted devices. On power strips the
MOVs (the widgets) are in series with a fuse. When the MOV blows
it takes the fuse with it disabling the strip and the light
doesn't. This doesn't work on an entrance panel mounted device
(don't want any fuse to blow to the MOV).
Morten Reistad
The good ones give a clean power cut instead of brownies with transients,
and also absorb start/stop transients from the inside. And keep power
off for 3-4 seconds, so things don't get into wildly flapping.
If every house had systems like that the grid would have a lot
easier times when the going gets tough.
-- mrr
jmfbahciv
> In article <gmel...@news6.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol says...>
<snip>
>> Spoken like an engineer.
>
> Well, this is what engineers do for food.
Bloody red meat? ;-)
>
>>> What were dimensions of that power conditioner?
>> I thought I wrote that. IIRC, it was 8"x2"x3" maybe smaller.
>>
>>> Where was it
>>> attached?
>> On the side of the breaker box between the power line feed into the
>> house and the breaker box.
>>
>> What held it in place?
>>
>> I don't know. I can't remember if it was attached to the board or
>> the box.
>>
>>> You said it had a light (or two?)
>>> that was always illuminated?
>> One red light that shone all the time.
>
> Oh, good grief. You've been had. It sounds like a "Watt Saver".
> It doesn't do anything you think it does. In fact, it doesn't do
> anything.
>
>
But it did do something. The voltage no longer varied like it did
before the device was put in and all power outages were clean.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
Nope because I tested it before and after by using the fan.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> On Feb 5, 7:15 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> that's what I said but they didn't seem to understand that. They seemed
>> to finally understand when I told them the device I wanted was to be
>> placed between the power line coming into the house and the circuit
>> breaker box.
>
> No useful protector is located in series as you described. A
> protector connects to AC mains just like a light bulb. It only taps
> onto existing wires.
>
> Nothing sits between AC power and the load. A device located
> between the power line and circuit breaker box would have to stop or
> absorb surges. Protectors do not stop surges.
I didn't intend the device to stop surges. I intended the device
to level out the voltage delivered. Back in those days, varying
voltage would destroy any computer gear we would have had in the
house such as TTYs.
> Or the device would be
> massive to perform filtering, voltage regulation, etc. How you
> described the connection confused some.
I may have had that wrong. All I know is it worked for the job
I needed it to work for.
>
> If it was a surge protector, then it connected each wire short (ie
> 'less than 10 feet') to earth only during a surge. From
> http://www.telebyteusa.com/primer/ch6.htm
>> Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground.
>> Once a threatening surge is detected, a lightning protection device
>> grounds the incoming signal connection point of the equipment
>> being protected. Thus, redirecting the threatening surge on a
>> path-of-least resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
>> Any lightning protection device must be composed of two
>> "subsystems," a switch which is essentially some type of switching
>> circuitry and a good ground connection-to allow dissipation of the
>> surge energy.
I used APC surge protectors for my computer gear. I spent a little
bit of time worrying about the oil burner and refrigerator but figured
I could absorb the cost with a direct lightning hit if it happened.
This event was unlikely since there were pointy things higher than my
house in the area.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> In article <-uqdnRZ1gJfB0BbU...@posted.visi>,
> dave.g...@wizinfo.com says...>
>> krw wrote:
>>
>>> Whole house surge supressors can be put inside the panel. There is
>>> no need for them to be added outside and the idiot light is, well,
>>> for idiots.
>> Maybe they can, but the first of those I linked to has a mounting
>> diagram that shows it being mounted *outside* the panel. And it has
>> lights, too. Don't ask me, I didn't design it. Most portable surge
>> protectors have lights, too.
>
> The ones I've seen mount in place of a breaker.
that is what I have now. It is not what I had back then.
> Lights pretty much
> are a gee-wiz factor on panel mounted devices.
I didn't pay much attention to that light.
>On power strips the
> MOVs (the widgets) are in series with a fuse. When the MOV blows
> it takes the fuse with it disabling the strip and the light
> doesn't. This doesn't work on an entrance panel mounted device
> (don't want any fuse to blow to the MOV).
>
Do you guys want the specs for the one they put in yesterday? I didn't
have any reproducible test to see if it "works" here.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
and that is exactly what I had in Southboro. All power outages were
clean.
>
> If every house had systems like that the grid would have a lot
> easier times when the going gets tough.
It made my life easier too.
/BAH
krw
Placebo? What is a "clean power outage"?
krw
krw
> > On Feb 5, 7:15 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
> >> that's what I said but they didn't seem to understand that. They seemed
> >> to finally understand when I told them the device I wanted was to be
> >> placed between the power line coming into the house and the circuit
> >> breaker box.
> >
> > No useful protector is located in series as you described. A
> > protector connects to AC mains just like a light bulb. It only taps
> > onto existing wires.
> >
> > Nothing sits between AC power and the load. A device located
> > between the power line and circuit breaker box would have to stop or
> > absorb surges. Protectors do not stop surges.
>
> I didn't intend the device to stop surges. I intended the device
> to level out the voltage delivered. Back in those days, varying
> voltage would destroy any computer gear we would have had in the
> house such as TTYs.
But they don't do that. Can't, in fact. To "level out voltages"
an AC power storage device is required. ...an *BIG* one, if it's
for the whole house.
<snip>
Bernd Felsche
>krw wrote:
>> In article <gmel...@news6.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol says...>
>>> Spoken like an engineer.
>> Well, this is what engineers do for food.
>Bloody red meat? ;-)
Meat good. Brain grow.
Good Christians know this.
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another
man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. Romans 14:2
Tease a vegetarian/vegan "Christian" with that tidbit. :-)
--
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ / ASCII ribbon campaign | Religion is regarded by the common people
X against HTML mail | as true, by the wise as false, and by the
/ \ and postings | rulers as useful. -- Seneca the Younger
Bernd Felsche
Could just have been a phase detector that tripped out a breaker
when the voltage went out of bounds. It would trip on brown-outs and
prevent the "wobbles" when power is restored as it would trip the
breaker until all phases are OK.
These types of sensors are "cheap" and available from just about
every electrical switchgear maker. The breaker isn't quite so
common, but it's quite easy to implement a solenoid onto a breaker
switch to disconnect the mains when the sensor picks up a supply
fault. Bigger than a match-box and certainly less than the size of a
lunch-box.
krw
ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au says...>
That would certainly be a *BAD* idea. Breakers aren't intended as
switches and you'd be resetting them constantly.
> These types of sensors are "cheap" and available from just about
> every electrical switchgear maker. The breaker isn't quite so
> common, but it's quite easy to implement a solenoid onto a breaker
> switch to disconnect the mains when the sensor picks up a supply
> fault. Bigger than a match-box and certainly less than the size of a
> lunch-box.
It's easy, but *expensive*. It is *NOT* just an add-on to an
entrance panel. The whole thing would have to be replaced.
wes...@gmail.com
> I didn't intend the device to stop surges. I intended the device
> to level out the voltage delivered. Back in those days, varying
> voltage would destroy any computer gear we would have had in the
> house such as TTYs.
Surges are large currents that seek earth ground. A typical
lightning strike is 20,000 amps. That can be 20,000 amps with no
significant voltage if connected directly to earth. Or 20,000 amps
with massive voltages if it must find earth through a furnace.
Either an in-line protector absorbs surges (to level out voltage)
or does nothing useful. Protectors do not block or absorb surges.
Yes, some energy is dissipated - just like wire which absorbs some
energy when delivering (diverting) massive energy elsewhere. But an
effective protector diverts to earth where massive energy is
harmlessly dissipated. An effective protector does not absorb surges
despite popular myths.
Most people believe protectors absorb surges. Surges on the order
of tens and hundreds of thousands of joules will be "leveled" by a
hundred joules inside a protector? Nonsense. Anything that would
'level' voltage is connected 'less than 10 feet' to earth. Therefore
it is located in the breaker box.
Review numeric specs for that APC product. To work where located,
it must block and absorb surges. Where does APC's numeric spec define
energy absorbed? It makes no claim to protect from typically
destructive surges. It sells on myths and image just like Listerine,
Geritol, and cigarettes. It contains the same protector circuit found
in a $7 grocery store protector. Its profit margin is that larger. A
number for protection from typically destructive surges does not
exist.
As other posts note, your previous dimming and brightening lights
was not corrected by any magic box. But again, when the electrician
installed that box, loose screws that caused dimming and brightening
were tightened. Nothing - especially of that size or from APC -
levels out voltages. Voltage leveling is performed by the utility in
some of their transformers.
wes...@gmail.com
> The good ones give a clean power cut instead of brownies with transients,
> and also absorb start/stop transients from the inside.
Transients made irrelevant by 'good ones' are also made irrelevant
by the appliance's power supply. A 'good' UPS 'cleans' power using a
supply that is also required in all computers.
What is that UPS that 'cleans' electricity? It starts at about
$500. The typical $100 UPS outputs electricity so 'dirty' as to even
harm some small electric motors. Computers use the same type supply
that cleans power in a $500 UPS; makes 'dirty' electricity
irrelevant. Typical UPSes are computer grade because computers are
so robust and do the same 'power cleaning' also found in $500 UPSes.
What makes the ‘good one’ so expensive? ‘Cleaning’ electricity with
a power supply is easy. Not making it ‘dirty’ again is expensive.
The typical plug-in UPS outputs some of the ‘dirtiest’ electricity an
appliance will see. How dirty? Only the $500 UPSes will discuss
numbers such as THD. Typical UPSes output electricity so dirty as to
avoid any THD numbers.
Morten Reistad
krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
>In article <gmhat...@news6.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol says...>
>> krw wrote:
>> > In article <gmel...@news6.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol says...>
>>
>> But it did do something. The voltage no longer varied like it did
>> before the device was put in and all power outages were clean.
>
>Placebo? What is a "clean power outage"?
A removal of power without surges or transients.
Thinks what happens if you just pull the mains breakers on a
large household. That A/C motor is spinning, and suddely turns
into a generator, delivering a significant voltage at a rapidly
diminishing frequency back into the little, now isolated grid
that is the house distribution panel. The same happens with the
washing machine motor and all the other motors in the house.
If there is little resistive load; e.g it is summer, and the
stove is off, and all the lightning is LED, 12V halogen or
fluorescent (all giving capacitive loads, varying radically
along the sine curve); then the local grid will have a set
of violently interacting sine curves. After about 200 milliseconds
they will tend to null each other, but in that three-cycle
period before that happens there can be extremely violent
transients.
If the town power goes out there is a grid to absorb this.
This is a reason fuses often blow when the power goes out.
Surge protectors can easily dampen this effect. Or you
can have a large resistive load to fix it.
This is an issue to be addressed in all installtions
where you want to generate your own power.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
>wes...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Feb 5, 7:15 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>>> that's what I said but they didn't seem to understand that. They seemed
>>> to finally understand when I told them the device I wanted was to be
>>> placed between the power line coming into the house and the circuit
>>> breaker box.
>>
>> No useful protector is located in series as you described. A
>> protector connects to AC mains just like a light bulb. It only taps
>> onto existing wires.
>>
>> Nothing sits between AC power and the load. A device located
>> between the power line and circuit breaker box would have to stop or
>> absorb surges. Protectors do not stop surges.
>
>I didn't intend the device to stop surges. I intended the device
>to level out the voltage delivered. Back in those days, varying
>voltage would destroy any computer gear we would have had in the
>house such as TTYs.
Giving a completely regulated voltage is not possible without
having a rather large and expensive device. It would either be
an isolation transformer with regulator; or a large capacitive
device. In both cases these would be at least a foot by 2x2 feet,
and have a mass comparable to people. And probably with a nice
humming sound inside.
But fixing the transients, and surges is perfectly possible with
a few tricks. Surges and transients (which destroy computers) can
effectivly be shunted to ground by small and cheap devices. They
can also rapidly isolate the house from the mains, and dampen
the inevitable inside surges and standing waves as power comes and
goes. A power break would therefore be clean.
It would also give a small, second-order effect on load, as it
would become slightly closer to a sine wave load with such a device.
What it cannot do is provide stable, high voltage and correct load
when voltage drops. But it _can_ do a clean disconnect.
It would probably fry if a direct lightning strike hit, but would
dampen the strike into the house by several orders of magnitude.
They tend to handle indirect lightning strikes reasonably well.
(Direct lightning strikes are rare. The one I have see the remains
of had all electricity wires evaporate and turn into plastma for
a 300 meter stretch. There were the telltale colour roses that
plastma balls make all over the place. There was nothing left
of wires, or even the isolators for the wires.)
>> Or the device would be
>> massive to perform filtering, voltage regulation, etc. How you
>> described the connection confused some.
>
>I may have had that wrong. All I know is it worked for the job
>I needed it to work for.
>
>>
>> If it was a surge protector, then it connected each wire short (ie
>> 'less than 10 feet') to earth only during a surge. From
>> http://www.telebyteusa.com/primer/ch6.htm
>>> Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground.
>>> Once a threatening surge is detected, a lightning protection device
>>> grounds the incoming signal connection point of the equipment
>>> being protected. Thus, redirecting the threatening surge on a
>>> path-of-least resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
>>> Any lightning protection device must be composed of two
>>> "subsystems," a switch which is essentially some type of switching
>>> circuitry and a good ground connection-to allow dissipation of the
>>> surge energy.
>
>I used APC surge protectors for my computer gear. I spent a little
>bit of time worrying about the oil burner and refrigerator but figured
>I could absorb the cost with a direct lightning hit if it happened.
>This event was unlikely since there were pointy things higher than my
>house in the area.
So lightning strikes would probably be indirect hits, where surge
protectors do a good job.
We have one of these devices in our fuse box, right next to the
mains fuse; connected after the mains fuse but before the distribution
panel. It looks just like another fuse.
-- mrr
wes...@gmail.com
> But it did do something. The voltage no longer varied like it did
> before the device was put in and all power outages were clean.
In order to install it, the electrician had to tighten screws that
were loose and creating voltage variations. That box did not correct
voltages. Nothing that small could correct such voltages. Again, see
references to "open neutral". What creates an open neutral would be
tightened by an electrician who installed that box.
Dave Garland
> The voltage no longer varied like it did
> before the device was put in and all power outages were clean.
Out of curiousity, how did you measure the voltage?
wes...@gmail.com
> It would probably fry if a direct lightning strike hit, but would
> dampen the strike into the house by several orders of magnitude.
> They tend to handle indirect lightning strikes reasonably well.
Either a protector must stop it completely or not at all.
Understand what surges are. Thousands of amps of current for a very
short time. That current will increase voltage as necessary to flow.
Nothing will stop that current. Any protector that would stop such
currents is myth. Voltage will simply increase to blow through that
blocking device.
When something fails, it becomes a better connector. Anything that
disconnects has a voltage rating. If its voltage is too low, then the
disconnect device (fuse, surge protector, switch, etc) keeps
conducting or becomes an even better conductor. A 32 volt auto fuse
used in 120 volts AC service would blow - then continue to conduct
electricity. Its voltage must be high enough to make a disconnect.
Either it disconnects completely or not at all.
What does a failing protector or appliance do? It becomes an even
better conductor. It does not dampen anything. Dampening is a myth.
If it tries to stop a surge, then current simply increases voltage,
blows through, and turns the device into a conductor. There is no
dampening - just catastrophic failure.
No effective protector stops surges just like no dam stops a massive
flood. Effective protectors divert surges just like dikes and a
deeper channel downstream divert the flood. Every responsible source
says what a protector does:
Effective protection is always about where energy gets dissipated.
To block surges, the protector must absorb all that energy. No
protector is large enough. Effective protectors divert that energy
into earth. To be more effective, that energy must be earthed before
it can enter a building. Surge current that enters a building will
simply seek earth ground destructively via appliances. Effective
protection means surges are _diverted_ to where that energy gets
dissipated harmlessly. From the NIST:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your
> surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
> ground. The best surge protection in the world can
> be useless if grounding is not done properly.
View numbers on those 'whole house' protectors. A minimal surge
protector starts at 50,000 amps. That means the protector is not
damaged by a direct lightning strike. That is what effective
protectors do - earth all surges AND remain functional.
Any protector that would dampen a surge fails catastrophically and
is a fire threat to human life. First current flows through
everything in a path to earth (even through a blocking protector).
Then something in that path fails. If 20,000 amps is flowing through
part of the circuit, then 20,000 amps is flowing through the entire
circuit. Basic electricity as even taught in elementary school
science. Current flow everywhere in that electrical path or current
does not flow anywhere.
Protection is always about diverting that 20,000 amps. Effective
protectors cannot stop that current. Ineffective protectors hyped on
myths claim to stop or blunt surges. Ineffective protectors, instead,
are destroyed even by trivial surges. Effective protectors divert
direct lightning strikes ... and remain functional. Effective
protection means energy is dissipated harmlessly ... in earth.
Nothing dampens the surge. Either it is stopped completely
(absorbed) or it blows through turning that device into an even better
conductor. Effective protectors never stop surges; always divert
surges to ground.
Morten Reistad
<wes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As other posts note, your previous dimming and brightening lights
>was not corrected by any magic box. But again, when the electrician
>installed that box, loose screws that caused dimming and brightening
>were tightened. Nothing - especially of that size or from APC -
>levels out voltages. Voltage leveling is performed by the utility in
>some of their transformers.
And going over all the electrical connections in a house to tighten
all nuts and connections is actually a very good idea, worth a few
hours work every 10 years. They DO work loose if they weren't
completely tightened from the outset. It just takes decades.
-- mrr
Scott Lurndal
Although, if you have a house wired with aluminum (or aluminium)
branch circuit wiring (rather than the more prevelent copper),
one must be careful with this. The correct torque values for
tightening connections to receptacles and switches must be
followed (and the receptacle/switch must be AL or AL/CU rated)
to avoid problems with expansion/contraction cycles.
Many homes in the US built in the late 60's and early 70's used
AL wiring as it was substantially less expensive than Cu. Unfortunately,
after a decade or so, many of the installations began failing rather
catastrophically (i.e. house fires) due to the different coefficient of
expansion in AL vs CU (AL expands/contracts more than CU as it
dissipates the heat generated by the resistance of the wire, causing
screwed connections to loosen over time). Be very wary of copper
to aluminum connections due to dissimilar metal effects (e.g. corrosion).
scott
greymaus
I have a dim memory of tackle to control power going into factories..
not specifically anything computer related, but machinery generally.
That would have been electricians work.
--
greymaus
.
.
...
jmfbahciv
<snip>
>>>>> You said it had a light (or two?)
>>>>> that was always illuminated?
>>>> One red light that shone all the time.
>>> Oh, good grief. You've been had. It sounds like a "Watt Saver".
>>> It doesn't do anything you think it does. In fact, it doesn't do
>>> anything.
>>>
>>>
>> But it did do something. The voltage no longer varied like it did
>> before the device was put in and all power outages were clean.
>
> Placebo? What is a "clean power outage"?
No brown outing. And no on/off/on/off in less than 3 seconds.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> krw wrote:
>>> In article <gmel...@news6.newsguy.com>, jmfbahciv@aol says...>
>
>>>> Spoken like an engineer.
>
>>> Well, this is what engineers do for food.
>
>> Bloody red meat? ;-)
>
> Meat good. Brain grow.
But bit gods also need beer.
>
> Good Christians know this.
> One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another
> man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. Romans 14:2
>
> Tease a vegetarian/vegan "Christian" with that tidbit. :-)
I'll pass; I'm having enough problems without invoking that kind
of discussion.
jmfbahciv
I posted my method in some post. I ran a window fan on low.
It would speed up, then slow down, taking about 5-10 seconds
for each cycle.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
An electrician had rewired the whole basement when he changed
the fuse box to a circuit breaker box about 5 years earlier.
I had that done because the fuse box would spit little balls
of "lightning" at me whenever I opened the door of the fuse
box. (this was in the Mass house.)
/BAH
jmfbahciv
I don't see a model number on this paper. The doc number is
PUB-24588(Rev.4) and that's if I can see the printing
correctly. I need new eyes.
The title is Cutler-Hammer Surge Arrester Catalog number CHSA
For Use with Cutler-Hammer Panelboards*
and now I don't see the footnote.
I don't know if this device is similar to the thing I had in
Mass. I have no reproducible test for before/after comparisons
with this house.
All I know is I would get the heebie-jeebies every time I looked
at the circuit breaker box. Based on what the electricians found
with the rest of the house wiring, my gut feel was correct.
you would not believe....
/BAH
Joe Morris
> What's a VA?
A slightly more abbreviated explanation than the (accurate) ones previously
posted:
In AC circuits, the VA number (the product of the measured voltage (V) and
the measured current (A) represents the load placed by an electric device on
the power feed.
Power (measured in Watts) represents the *consumption* of (usable) power by
an electric device.
The difference between VA and Watts is the ability of the device to store
energy in part of each AC cycle, then return that energy to the source
elsewhere in the cycle. This difference is reflected in the phase angle
between the voltage and current waveforms; if P is the power consumption in
Watts and ? is the angle between voltage and current,
P = V * A * cos(?)
Note that in DC systems P=VA, and in all cases P <= VA. The term cos(?) is
called the "power factor".
A perfect capacitor or a perfect inductor placed across an AC supply will
have the same steady-state power draw - zero - since ? will be either +90
or -90 degrees; there will still be current flow in the AC feeds and thus a
nonzero product of V and A.
Power feeds must be sized for the VA load; large industrial customers with a
low power factor are penalized for the additional generating and
transmission capability required to service them.
This material may be on the next quiz.
Joe Morris
Joe Morris
> I don't see a model number on this paper. The doc number is
> PUB-24588(Rev.4) and that's if I can see the printing
> correctly. I need new eyes.
>
> The title is Cutler-Hammer Surge Arrester Catalog number CHSA
> For Use with Cutler-Hammer Panelboards*
There are several flavors of CHSA units; some of them can be installed in a
load center in normal breaker positions and connecting to one or two phase
busses; others are designed for external mounting on the frame of the
breaker box (via a knockout) and are wired to the protected busses.
In either case, these are surge arrestors -- similar in concept to what you
get in a good power strip. Their function is the same: they shunt excessive
voltage spikes to protect downstream loads, sometimes destroying themselves
in the process (thus the status light). They cannot provide a boost voltage
to compensate for low line voltage.
Joe Morris
Dave Garland
> I had that done because the fuse box would spit little balls
> of "lightning" at me whenever I opened the door of the fuse
> box. (this was in the Mass house.)
That's scary, all right. Lucky you didn't have a fire before you
noticed something was wrong.
Dave
krw
installed cannot be responsible for this improvement.
krw
dave.g...@wizinfo.com says...>
That's sorta the reason for the metal box; to keep the bits of fire
inside while you call the electrician (or perhaps FD, depending).
;-)
krw
says...>
The danger is disturbing a sleeping dog. I would agree that this
is a good thing to do for the entrance panel, where there is room
to work without bending things, but I wouldn't remove outlets and
switches without reason. If an outlet or switch gets pulled out of
the box, replace it. ...and get rid of any back-stabs! They
should *never* have been allowed.
wes...@gmail.com
> In either case, these are surge arrestors -- similar in concept to what you
> get in a good power strip. Their function is the same: they shunt excessive
> voltage spikes to protect downstream loads, sometimes destroying themselves
> in the process (thus the status light).
Much of what was posted is correct. But this paragraph is completely
wrong. Nine reasons why are in the last paragraph. Below are
technical explainations.
A power strip must absorb surge energy. A power strip provides no
other place for that destructive surge energy to be dissipated. A
power strip protector is not used where effective surge protection is
required. The 'whole house' protector has been routine protection for
the past 100 years. To never suffer damage from, on average, 100
surges during each thunderstorm, telcos use 'whole house' protectors.
A ‘whole house’ protector is located on every homeowner's incoming
phone line by the telco for free – because that protector is so
effective.
What makes a 'whole house' protector effective is the item that
actually provides protection: earth ground. Where does surge energy
get dissipated? Will hundreds of joules in a power strip somehow
absorb hundreds of thousands of joules from a surge? Energy absorbed
by a power strip is classic urban myth. As demonstrated often by
example, the power strip may shunt that energy even destructively into
household appliances. That energy must be shunted where is can be
harmlessly dissipated.
Effective protector (ie the Cutler-Hammer) is only as effective as
what it connects to. It must shunt (divert, connect) that surge
energy somewhere. A short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to a
single point earth ground is required. All protectors must make this
short connection to a single point ground that both meets and exceeds
post 1990 National Electrical Code. Only then are surges dissipated
harmlessly in earth. No power strip protector does this. To protect
obscenely profitable sales, power strip manufacturers avoid discussing
what provides surge protection – earth ground.
Many hear the expression "surge protector" and just assume it is
surge protection. If a power strip protector is protection, then its
numeric specs would say no. No power strip manufacturer claims that
protection. It cannot. How does it block and absorb hundreds of
thousands of joules? A power strip does not do the same thing as a
‘whole house’ protector.
A surge is either earthed by a 'whole house' protector before
entering a building. Or that energy goes inside to find earth ground
destructively via adjacent appliances. Engineers learn this by
tracing the resulting damage. In one case, two power strip protectors
connected a black (hot) wire surge to white (neutral) and green
(safety ground) wires. A surge bypasses protection in both computers’
power supplies. Incoming on those wires. Outgoing through network
boards. Into a third computer via that same network. Then out to
earth ground via the phone wire.
Plug-in protectors simply gave that surge more paths to find earth
ground via powered off computers. Telcos and other high reliability
facilities do not waste money on plug-in protectors; have always used
'whole house' protectors. The protector is only as effective as its
earth ground.
That Cutler Hammer unit mounted on the breaker box would be a 'whole
house' protector. If two phase, then two indicator lights illuminate.
This is only secondary protection. Homeowners should also confirm
integrity of the primary surge protection system:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
Each protection layer is defined by the only thing that provides
protection – the earthing electrode.
Any protector that "destroys itselve" during a surge was grossly
undersized and ineffective. Since power strip protectors are not for
protection (do not even make protection claims in numeric specs), then
undersizing a power strip will increase profits. An undersized
protector that fails gets the naive to recommend more. Effective
protectors (ie that Cutler Hammer) must earth even direct lightning
strikes and remain functional – not "destroy itselve" ... ever.
What is the current rating on that CH device? 50 Kamps? Then it
easily earths 20 Kamps from a direct lightning strike - without being
destroyed. But only if earthing (what provides protection) makes that
less than 10 foot connection to earth. Too many see grossly
undersized protectors fail, then recommend that completely useless
protector to friends. Higher profits both from undersizing and from
those naïve recommendations.
1) Power strips don't make that necessary earthing connection. 2)
Are often grossly undersized to fail so that naive will recommend it.
3) Can even earth surges destructively through household appliances.
4) Have no place to dissipate all that surge energy. 5) Do not even
claim to provide that protection in numeric specs. 6) Are not used
anyplace that surge protection is required (ie US Air Force bases, all
telcos everywhere in the world, Sun Microsystems server farms,
etc). A major difference exists between effective 'whole house'
protectors and power strips. 7) Effective protection means nobody
even knew the surge existed. 8) An effective protector provides a
dedicated wire for that short connection to single point earth
ground. 9) The effective protector costs about $1 per protected
appliance. How much is that power strip protector - that does not
even claim protection in its numeric specs?
Any facility that actually requires surge protection installs a
'whole house' protector and upgrades earthing. They don't waste money
on power strip protectors. Above are numerous differences.
wes...@gmail.com
> I posted my method in some post. I ran a window fan on low.
> It would speed up, then slow down, taking about 5-10 seconds
> for each cycle.
That would be no more than ten or twenty volts variation on 120 VAC
service. That minor voltage variations could have easily been a loose
screw - ie the 'open neutral'. Corrected when an electrician
tightened screws to install a 'whole house' protector. Another
indicator would be incandescent bulbs changing intensity.
A seven volt increase can cause incandescent bulbs to fail twice as
fast. But even a ten volt increase or a 25 volt drop must never cause
problems for any computer. Utilities must keep AC voltage accurate to
protect motorized appliances and incandescent bulbs. Computers are
far more robust.
greymaus
Really scary. The above (/BAH) message may be evidence to be used
when the buyer finds the house has burned down. Better is
"The house was absolutely perfect when I left, must have been
something the buyer did."
jmfbahciv
/BAH
jmfbahciv
electrican to do the work that day. He declared it an emergency.
A side effect was that all the wiring in the basement (which
cracked in half whenever he bent the wire) was also replaced.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
> On Feb 7, 7:06 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv@aol> wrote:
>> I posted my method in some post. I ran a window fan on low.
>> It would speed up, then slow down, taking about 5-10 seconds
>> for each cycle.
>
> That would be no more than ten or twenty volts variation on 120 VAC
> service. That minor voltage variations could have easily been a loose
> screw - ie the 'open neutral'. Corrected when an electrician
> tightened screws to install a 'whole house' protector. Another
> indicator would be incandescent bulbs changing intensity.
>
> A seven volt increase can cause incandescent bulbs to fail twice as
> fast. But even a ten volt increase or a 25 volt drop must never cause
> problems for any computer.
Are you talking about today's gear or the 1970's gear? I needed it
for the 1970's gear.
> Utilities must keep AC voltage accurate to
> protect motorized appliances and incandescent bulbs.
sigh! We had enforced brownouts during throughout the 80s. One
of my jobs at work was to be the contact to start shutting down
gear in the computer labs whenever I was called.
> Computers are
> far more robust.
No, they were NOT!
/BAH
jmfbahciv
himself with glee because of the stuff I had done; especially that
device you guys are now calling whole house surge
protector.
The idiot who had this house had a "light switch" to turn wall
plugs on/off all over the place. There are still four wall
plugs in the garage that the electricians couldn't figure out
how to make them work. Each one had a light switch but we never
did find the light switch that turn them on. I had them
neutralized, along with other plugs the fucking idiot put on
the outside (which were filled with ice when one of the
electricians examined them). I already knew those were very
bad things because I saw water dripping from them during the
last thaw we had.
When the snow is off the roof, I'm going to have the fixit guys
go up there and look for light switches. That is probably
the only place that may not have one but I wouldn't bet one
your pennies on that.
After I get over from being stunned with all the stuff that
went wrong Thursday, I'm going to be extreeeemmmmmmely
pissed off. And I can't even hex the guy's balls that
did this shite because I'm told he's dead.
/BAH
Morten Reistad
It was an emergency. If you had complained, the previous owner
(if you took over less than a few years earlier) would have had
to reimburse you.
-- mrr
Morten Reistad
If the house you took over has recent installations
that are in direct violations of building codes, and
they were not immediatly visible or declared during
the purchase then you should ask for a reimbursement.
That is what house brokers are for. If there is a tap,
electrical outlet, gas installation etc it is assumed
to be up to the appropriate building codes; or that
deficiencies in this respect is explicitly declared.
It is pretty normal that expenses in the $50-100k range is
reimbursed if serious code deficiencies are found.
If it is an emergency repair, you can do it yourself,
and collect documentation. If it is not emergency, then
the previous owner has the right to fix it.
So call your broker today, and bring up a complaint, and
send a formal notice of code violations. Your plumber
and/or electrician will normally be very happy
to do the paperwork, because they suddenly have some
bozy they can stick it to with a LOT of costs.
-- mrr
Walter Bushell
Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
> So call your broker today, and bring up a complaint, and
> send a formal notice of code violations. Your plumber
> and/or electrician will normally be very happy
> to do the paperwork, because they suddenly have some
> bozy they can stick it to with a LOT of costs.
Who may or may not be good for it.
Joe Morris
>On Feb 7, 10:00 am, "Joe Morris" <j.c.mor...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> In either case, these are surge arrestors -- similar in concept to what
>> you
>> get in a good power strip. Their function is the same: they shunt
>> excessive
>> voltage spikes to protect downstream loads, sometimes destroying
>> themselves
>> in the process (thus the status light).
>Much of what was posted is correct. But this paragraph is completely
>wrong. Nine reasons why are in the last paragraph. Below are
>technical explainations.
I said "similar in concept", not "identical in implementation."
Joe Morris
Dave Garland
> It was an emergency. If you had complained, the previous owner
> (if you took over less than a few years earlier) would have had
> to reimburse you.
I dunno about Norway or MA, but here in MN houses are pretty much sold
as-is, though you might have some claim against the contractor if it
was new construction. Here in Minneapolis, there's a cursory
inspection of the property (by an inspector hired by the real estate
agent, and the inspector knows what's expected if he wants to get
repeat business) and items flagged as "dangerous" need to be fixed.
If the panel wasn't actively making sparks when the inspector looked,
it probably would pass inspection so long as it had met code when it
was installed. Barb's description sounds like that was 70 years ago.
Dave
David Powell
Almost certainly some form of induction motor driving the fan. They
normally operate just below synchronous speed, where the torque/slip
curve is fairly straight,with a large increase in torque for a small
fall in speed. ie almost constant speed for small delta V. You would
need a change in mains frequency to cause your effect, and that won't
happen in a 5-10s cycle. Ok, you said the low speed setting. It's
most unlikely for it to be a pole-changing motor, probably some series
impedance to throttle down the voltage. Now we're operating on the
reverse slope of the T/S curve, with torque decreasing with falling
speed, ie positive feedback and mucho speed change for small delta V.
So you're not monitoring mains voltage variations, just the poor speed
regulation of a toy motor.
What is certain is that if you fit a black box 8"x2"x3" in series with
the mains input to your house, then no way will it clean up (say) a -+
5% variation in mains voltage.
Regards,
David P.
krw
Physics says if there was any change it was because something else
changed, most likely a tightened screw during the installation.
krw
They certainly are now, and decent ones have been since the great
flood.
krw
> > On 2009-02-07, Dave Garland <dave.g...@wizinfo.com> wrote:
> >> jmfbahciv wrote:
> >>> I had that done because the fuse box would spit little balls
> >>> of "lightning" at me whenever I opened the door of the fuse
> >>> box. (this was in the Mass house.)
> >> That's scary, all right. Lucky you didn't have a fire before you
> >> noticed something was wrong.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> > Really scary. The above (/BAH) message may be evidence to be used
> > when the buyer finds the house has burned down. Better is
> >
> > "The house was absolutely perfect when I left, must have been
> > something the buyer did."
> >
> >
> Well, the city's electricity inspector was peeing all over
> himself with glee because of the stuff I had done; especially that
> device you guys are now calling whole house surge
> protector.
>
> The idiot who had this house had a "light switch" to turn wall
> plugs on/off all over the place.
My house in VT had that, though it was only the lower half that was
switched. Damned handy! ...about the only thing that was done
right in the house and I wish I had that feature in my new house.
> There are still four wall
> plugs in the garage that the electricians couldn't figure out
> how to make them work. Each one had a light switch but we never
> did find the light switch that turn them on.
How do you know there was a light switch if you never found it?
Couldn't it have been a broken wire? That's the sort of thing I'd
never leave long.
> I had them
> neutralized, along with other plugs the fucking idiot put on
> the outside (which were filled with ice when one of the
> electricians examined them). I already knew those were very
> bad things because I saw water dripping from them during the
> last thaw we had.
Outdoor outlets are quite handy, though need special covers. It's
also a good idea that water not get behind the siding.
> When the snow is off the roof, I'm going to have the fixit guys
> go up there and look for light switches. That is probably
> the only place that may not have one but I wouldn't bet one
> your pennies on that.
Light switches on the roof?
> After I get over from being stunned with all the stuff that
> went wrong Thursday, I'm going to be extreeeemmmmmmely
> pissed off. And I can't even hex the guy's balls that
> did this shite because I'm told he's dead.
>
You got the better of him! ;-)
wes...@gmail.com
>> Computers are far more robust.
> No, they were NOT!
Were or are? Some 1960 computers could be harmed even if one of
three phases was disconnected. But PCs must be some of the most
robust electronics in a house.
Intentional AC power main brownuouts are typically less than 3% and
must never exceed 5%. Otherwise electric motors may be harmed.
Meanwhile industry specs require a computer to work perfectly fine
even during brownouts exceeding 20%.
Computers are required to be so robust that power from a plug-in UPS
(in battery backup mode) may harm small electric motors and power
strip protectors. But that power is perfectly acceptable to any
computer.
Industry standards require computers to even withstand AC mains
transients of 2000 volts. Of course, many computer assemblers
selecting components only on price may use discounts to avoid robust
parts. Another reason why clone machines do not save money.
Computers are required by industry standards to be some of the most
robust electrical appliances.
Brownouts and voltage increases created by loose screws in a breaker
box (as first suggested by this poster) tend to be more harmful to
other devices such as light bulbs and electric motors; as was
demonstrated by numbers.
wes...@gmail.com
> Whatever got put into the Southboro house did do just that.
Again, what got changed: to install a 'whole house' protector,
loose screws were tightened that once caused voltage decreases and
increases. Search for and learn about voltage variations created by a
loose neutral wire. See:
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/OpenServiceNeutralCausesDangerousTouchVoltageonMetalParts~20030409.htm
You had classic symptoms of voltage variations that could be harmful
to electric motors but not harmful to computers.
wes...@gmail.com
> I said "similar in concept", not "identical in implementation."
Agreed. But others would not grasp the difference.
Meanwhile, a power strip protectors can act more like a 'whole
house' protector if connected (with power cord cut as short as
possible) to a wall receptacle attached to the main breaker box. Then
that protector may make a necessary short connection to earth.
bud--
> On Feb 7, 10:00 am, "Joe Morris" <j.c.mor...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > In either case, these are surge arrestors -- similar in concept to what you
> > get in a good power strip. Their function is the same: they shunt excessive
> > voltage spikes to protect downstream loads, sometimes destroying themselves
> > in the process (thus the status light).
(The latest term for suppressors rated under 1kV is “SPD” - Surge
protective device. “Arresters” are rated over 1kV. Language in the
2008 US-NEC has changed. The NEC is following changes at UL.)
The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
<http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/
LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf>
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE
guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is
the major organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the
US).
And also:
<http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf>
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of
Standards and Technology in 2001
The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background.
> A power strip must absorb surge energy. A power strip provides no
> other place for that destructive surge energy to be dissipated.
Plug-in suppressors do not work by absorbing surges. w may be the
only person in the universe who claims that.
> A
> power strip protector is not used where effective surge protection is
> required.
Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.
The IEEE guide has 2 examples of protection. Both use plug-in
suppressors.
> No power strip manufacturer claims that
> protection. It cannot.
Complete nonsense.
Some manufacturers even have protected equipment warrantees.
> The protector is only as effective as its
> earth ground.
w has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge
protection must directly use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in
suppressors (which are not well earthed) can not possibly work. The
IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING (limiting)
the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at
the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing
(or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs
elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).
Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the
same plug-in suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need
to go through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the
suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires.
These multiport suppressors are described in both guides.
The NIST guide cites US insurance information that indicates equipment
most likely to be damaged by lightning is computers with modem
connection and TV related equipment - presumably with cable
connection. All can be damaged by high voltage between signal and
power wires.
> Any facility that actually requires surge protection installs a
> 'whole house' protector
Service panel suppressors are a good idea.
But from the NIST guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link
appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances
[equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most
homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer
to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge
protector installed at the service entrance is useless."
Service panel suppressors do not prevent high voltages from developing
between power and signal wires. To limit the voltage you need a
*short* wire connecting the cable/phone entrance protectors to the
ground at the power service. A ground wire that is too long is
illustrated in the IEEE guide starting pdf page 40.
For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.
w has no sources that agree with him that plug-in suppressors are NOT
effective.
And perhaps w could answer simple questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-
in suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?
- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the
consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?
--
bud--
Chris Adams
>w has no sources that agree with him that plug-in suppressors are NOT
>effective.
This guy apparently does nothing but troll all of Usenet, looking for
anybody mentioning surge suppressors, and then he goes off on his rant.
I've seen him in at least 3 different (unrelated) groups now.
--
Chris Adams <cma...@hiwaay.net>
Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services
I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
krw
cma...@hiwaay.net says...>
> >w has no sources that agree with him that plug-in suppressors are NOT
> >effective.
>
> This guy apparently does nothing but troll all of Usenet, looking for
> anybody mentioning surge suppressors, and then he goes off on his rant.
> I've seen him in at least 3 different (unrelated) groups now.
I was wondering how long it would take w_tom to show up here in
AFC. Yes, w_tom is _everywhere_ s*r*e* s*p*e*s*r* are even
mentioned. He will shortly call us all shills for the lug-in
suppressor manufacturers. The idjit must do nothing but google the
dirty word.
Homework: Count the number of groups he's posted to. ;-)
CBFalconer
>
... snip ...
>
> Were or are? Some 1960 computers could be harmed even if one of
> three phases was disconnected. But PCs must be some of the most
> robust electronics in a house.
>
> Intentional AC power main brownuouts are typically less than 3%
> and must never exceed 5%. Otherwise electric motors may be
> harmed. Meanwhile industry specs require a computer to work
> perfectly fine even during brownouts exceeding 20%.
My 1965 computer (see <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net/firstpc/>)
was personal, and operated from 85V to 135V a.c, as designed and
tested on Variacs. I remember when the great power crash occurred
(66 or 67) and I was busy seeing how long our production machines
last. Then everything went black, and we went home.
Then I was destroyed by GE diodes with 25V specs that deteriorated
to 5V or less, with age
--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.
Morten Reistad
CBFalconer <cbfal...@maineline.net> wrote:
>wes...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>... snip ...
>>
>> Were or are? Some 1960 computers could be harmed even if one of
>> three phases was disconnected. But PCs must be some of the most
>> robust electronics in a house.
>>
>> Intentional AC power main brownuouts are typically less than 3%
>> and must never exceed 5%. Otherwise electric motors may be
>> harmed. Meanwhile industry specs require a computer to work
>> perfectly fine even during brownouts exceeding 20%.
An ATX power supply (what powers around 85% of desktop PCs) can
handle power from 85 to 280 volts and frequencies from 45 to 65
hertz. Outside of this it can handle surges to 1000 volts without
harm, while operating normally, and is supposed to do a clean
shutdown outside these limits.
They can go without power for three cycles (50 or 45 ms) and
shed +/- 12V and asserts low power for as long as it can keep
5 and 3.3V running. This means that a suitable motherboard can
hibernate for several seconds on a brownout, and come right
back.
They run just fine on crude inverters.
The one thing it is not designed to handle is lightning. They
will fry on more than a few thousand volts.
Laptop powers are even more robust. I use train travel to
some of my clients, and use laptops to connect to the train
220V. I have measured it, it is nasty. Electricity on trains
is a special thing. It goes from 160 to 320 volts, and is
way off in frequency. And it has lots of 450V spikes. The
mac gives power alarms all the time, but runs just fine.
The 7 year old ubuntu laptop just hums along. It has bad
batteries; but they can handle a 10 minute dropout.
They handle boat power on all the ferries I take, and on
my own vessel. This is better than rail power, but it
moves between good inverters, crude inverters, AC from
the mid-plane on alternators, and generators, and jump
phase while this happens.
What else can handle such variation?
>My 1965 computer (see <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net/firstpc/>)
>was personal, and operated from 85V to 135V a.c, as designed and
>tested on Variacs. I remember when the great power crash occurred
>(66 or 67) and I was busy seeing how long our production machines
>last. Then everything went black, and we went home.
>
>Then I was destroyed by GE diodes with 25V specs that deteriorated
>to 5V or less, with age
Early semicontuctors has a lot of such stories.
-- mrr
Hans-Christian Becker
Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
[ATX power supplies]
>They run just fine on crude inverters.
>
... except for the other way round, although the introduction
of power factor correction units should have ameliorated that
situation.
I totally agree with your point that modern, switched power
supplies are exceptionally tolerant towards varying input.
--
Dr. Hans-Christian Becker
'96 VN750 SM5TLH KG6POK
Uppsala, Sweden
Morten Reistad
Hans-Christian Becker <h...@fki030.fki.uu.se> wrote:
>In article <62oomg....@eden.reistad.name>,
>Morten Reistad <fi...@last.name> wrote:
>
>[ATX power supplies]
>>They run just fine on crude inverters.
>>
>... except for the other way round, although the introduction
>of power factor correction units should have ameliorated that
>situation.
>I totally agree with your point that modern, switched power
>supplies are exceptionally tolerant towards varying input.
Where they DO vary is how they load the grid.
They tend to have load-spikes as soon as they detect usable
power, i.e. long before the sine curve has reached the top
voltage. Then they are charged, and drop back to low current
load.
So they have a phase angle of -80 to -20. And that angle
varies with load.
It is so bad that power generators can hear that load at
the generator plant. It isn't a nice hum anymore.
-- mrr
jmfbahciv
that house in 1977.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
All I know is that it did do just that. I tested it before (to show
the electrician) and we tested it after he put in the device. And,
before somebody decides to tell me that it must have been a screw
loose, I had done the test on all outlets (different circuit breakers)
to make sure it wasn't just the one plug that had a problem.
Now, if you wish to tell me it was a miracle, then it was a miracle.
And the next time I had a power outage, the power disconnection was
clean and abrupt. There was no on/off repeatedly nor dim/bright
cycles within a few seconds of wall clock time. This clean
disconnection continued throughout the 20+ years I lived in the house.
/BAH
/BAH
jmfbahciv
electrician didn't touch.
/BAH
jmfbahciv
Most of the gear is a lot better since they have to be robust enough
to take house owner abuse :-). There still exists some gear that
doesn't. Disk drives and modems come to mind at the moment.
/BAH