The missing link?

[Gareth's Downstairs Computer]

Most historical works seem to jump from
Babbage to Turing with nary a mention of Conrad Zuse.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

That's because of World War II

Steve

--
http://www.npsnn.com

[Mike Tomlinson]

>On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:33:16 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
><headst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Most historical works seem to jump from
>>Babbage to Turing with nary a mention of Conrad Zuse.

That's because it's spelt Konrad.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

[Whiskers]

The penalty of doing something Top Secret for a wartime government and
being on the losing side in the war. Even so, not as bad as being
persecuted to death as happened to Turing.

I wonder how much the people at Bletchley Park new about Zuse's work at
the time?

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

My mother in law worked at Bletchley Park. Most of the people knew
nothing about the work being done by any others. Even after the
secrets period expired and a lot was published she still wouldn't tell
me about what they had been doing.

She did tell me that they had a lot of fun!

Steve

--
http://www.npsnn.com

[Bob Eager]

I've visited Bletchley Park quite a bit. I heard the story of a retired
couple who visited a few yaers ago; they had jointly decided to do so as
part of a retirement 'tour'.

While having the Bobmbe demonstrated, the wife suddenly remarked loudly
"That's not how it was done". Turned out she'd worked on it.

Afterwards, her husband challenged her, saying "You never told me you
worked here", the rejoinder of course being "It was a secret". At which
point he confessed that he had also worked there.




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

[ma...@mail.com]

On 2017-07-23, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@easynn.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 14:27:38 +0100, Whiskers
><catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2017-07-23, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@easynn.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:33:16 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Most historical works seem to jump from
>>>>Babbage to Turing with nary a mention of Conrad Zuse.
>>>
>>> That's because of World War II
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>The penalty of doing something Top Secret for a wartime government and
>>being on the losing side in the war. Even so, not as bad as being
>>persecuted to death as happened to Turing.
>>
>>I wonder how much the people at Bletchley Park new about Zuse's work at
>>the time?
>
> My mother in law worked at Bletchley Park. Most of the people knew
> nothing about the work being done by any others. Even after the
> secrets period expired and a lot was published she still wouldn't tell
> me about what they had been doing.
>
> She did tell me that they had a lot of fun!
>
> Steve
>

They would have, after the liberating effect of doing war work during WWI,
women had been relegated to `home' work again, only to be wanted again .
Several of the accounts have it that the people interviewing liked girls
with a `nice' accent.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

[Gareth's Downstairs Computer]

On 23/07/2017 14:27, Whiskers wrote:
> On 2017-07-23, Stephen Wolstenholme <st...@easynn.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:33:16 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
>> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Most historical works seem to jump from
>>> Babbage to Turing with nary a mention of Conrad Zuse.
>>
>> That's because of World War II
>>
>> Steve
>
> The penalty of doing something Top Secret for a wartime government and
> being on the losing side in the war. Even so, not as bad as being
> persecuted to death as happened to Turing.

... and yet the work on the V2 led to the Saturn V by Von Braun

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 17:12:14 +0100

"Good old American know-how, from good old Americans like Werner von Braun"
- Tom Lehrer.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

[Charles Richmond]

On 7/23/2017 6:29 AM, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:33:16 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Most historical works seem to jump from
>> Babbage to Turing with nary a mention of Conrad Zuse.
>
> That's because of World War II
>

And the don't mention Conrad Zuse because it's Konrad Zuse!


--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com

[Whiskers]

On 2017-07-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 17:12:14 +0100
> Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 23/07/2017 14:27, Whiskers wrote:
>
>> > The penalty of doing something Top Secret for a wartime government and
>> > being on the losing side in the war. Even so, not as bad as being
>> > persecuted to death as happened to Turing.
>>
>> ... and yet the work on the V2 led to the Saturn V by Von Braun
>
> "Good old American know-how, from good old Americans like Werner von Braun"
> - Tom Lehrer.

Long range missiles are harder to hide than electronic experiments.
Also, I suspect that long range missiles got the American generals more
excited than a box of 'vacuum tubes'.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

Most definitely yes, "We need long firm pointy things" -Spitting
Image.

[J. Clarke]

In article <slrnon9n2o.3...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
catwh...@operamail.com says...

The Zuse computers were not secret and did not use vacuum tubes.

And generals are not in charge in the United States.

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sunday, July 23, 2017 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-4, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:


> My mother in law worked at Bletchley Park. Most of the people knew
> nothing about the work being done by any others. Even after the
> secrets period expired and a lot was published she still wouldn't tell
> me about what they had been doing.

Likewise, workers at Oak Ridge never talked about what they did for
the rest of their lives, even after much was published.

Indeed, apart from the cubicle operators, very little has been written
about the work of other Oak Ridge (and Hanford) workers, many of whom
had to work with radioactive or dangerou chemicals.

> She did tell me that they had a lot of fun!

At all Manhattan District facilities, working and living conditions
were austere. Gen. Groves not would tolerate any luxury, indeed, it seems
he went out of his way to keep conditions rough. Accounts vary, but it
seems most people were happy to leave the facilites at the end of the war;
to get away from the mud, dust, security, overcrowding, and austerity.

obComp: Tab machines played a big role at Los Alamos in expediting
calculations (Feynman). I don't know about Oak Ridge. Heck, I can't
even imagine how a huge facility of many thousands of workers prepared
its payroll.

[Whiskers]

Really? Try promoting 'defense cuts'.

But the Allied military was very much in control of occupied Germany,
with 'Military Governors' (all of them Generals or higher rank) imposed
until 1949 when political/diplomatic 'High Commissioners' were
appointed. East and West Germany gained self-government only in 1955.

('British Forces Germany' is still the largest concentration of British
armed forces anywhere outside the UK, and the USA still has a large
military presence there too.)

[Whiskers]

On 2017-07-23, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com <hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

[...]

> obComp: Tab machines played a big role at Los Alamos in expediting
> calculations (Feynman). I don't know about Oak Ridge. Heck, I can't
> even imagine how a huge facility of many thousands of workers prepared
> its payroll.

Huge ledgers, and rooms full of filing cabinets and card indices and a
great many clerks and accountants and cashiers, and tons of paper.
Whole office blocks just doing 'payroll'. Career paths in 'payroll'.
There were apparently even people who *liked* doing that sort of thing.

[J. Clarke]

In article <slrnona8uk.s...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,

catwh...@operamail.com says...
>
> On 2017-07-23, J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrnon9n2o.3...@ID-107770.user.individual.net>,
> > catwh...@operamail.com says...
> >>
> >> On 2017-07-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 17:12:14 +0100 Gareth's Downstairs Computer
> >> > <headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 23/07/2017 14:27, Whiskers wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> > The penalty of doing something Top Secret for a wartime
> >> >> > government and being on the losing side in the war. Even so,
> >> >> > not as bad as being persecuted to death as happened to Turing.
> >> >>
> >> >> ... and yet the work on the V2 led to the Saturn V by Von Braun
> >> >
> >> > "Good old American know-how, from good old Americans like Werner
> >> > von Braun" - Tom Lehrer.
> >>
> >> Long range missiles are harder to hide than electronic experiments.
> >> Also, I suspect that long range missiles got the American generals
> >> more excited than a box of 'vacuum tubes'.
> >
> > The Zuse computers were not secret and did not use vacuum tubes.
> >
> > And generals are not in charge in the United States.
>
> Really? Try promoting 'defense cuts'.

OK, you _really_ don't understand US politics, do you? The generals are
fine with defense cuts, it's the contractors who have the issue with them.
For example the $120 million in tank upgrades that Congress is forcing the
military to take against its protests--Congress wants it because it keeps a
factory open and people employed.

> But the Allied military was very much in control of occupied Germany,
> with 'Military Governors' (all of them Generals or higher rank) imposed
> until 1949 when political/diplomatic 'High Commissioners' were
> appointed. East and West Germany gained self-government only in 1955.

So? You're acting like "the generals" decided what we were going to
research after the war. Didn't happen--when a general did get some say in
it the result was that the Soviets stole a march on us.

Zuse was ignored because he made one computer, mostly as a hobby project,
that got destroyed during the bombing, and had made no noticeable
contribution to the war effort, not because "the generals" didn't think
that computers mattered. Of course "the generals" had never even _heard_
of Colossus or the bombes or the Mark I, all of which were vastly more
secret than the Zuse.

> ('British Forces Germany' is still the largest concentration of British
> armed forces anywhere outside the UK, and the USA still has a large
> military presence there too.)

So?

[hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com]

On Sunday, July 23, 2017 at 7:48:50 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:

> OK, you _really_ don't understand US politics, do you? The generals are
> fine with defense cuts, it's the contractors who have the issue with them.
> For example the $120 million in tank upgrades that Congress is forcing the
> military to take against its protests--Congress wants it because it keeps a
> factory open and people employed.

A lot of examples like that.

Funny how many 'doves' became 'hawks' when it came down to a military
base or defense contractor in their district.

> Zuse was ignored because he made one computer, mostly as a hobby project,
> that got destroyed during the bombing, and had made no noticeable
> contribution to the war effort, not because "the generals" didn't think
> that computers mattered. Of course "the generals" had never even _heard_
> of Colossus or the bombes or the Mark I, all of which were vastly more
> secret than the Zuse.

I have no idea of the training a WW II general had received, but I suspect
they recognized the importance of certain timely numeric information.
For instance, firing tables were critical for artillery to accurately
hit the target. Logistics were critical so the troops were well
supplied with food, ammunition, and fuel. IBM supplied the miltary
with mobile punched card tabulating units which were supposedly most
helpful in keeping track of things.

McNamera and associates made a name for themselves with statistical
quality control which cut waste (though it failed in Vietnam).

[J. Clarke]

In article <d30e7cdf-8d90-4f91...@googlegroups.com>,
hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com says...

The thing is, what reason would anyone have to believe that Zuse was
anything but a crackpot in 1944?

> McNamera and associates made a name for themselves with statistical
> quality control which cut waste (though it failed in Vietnam).

No, they made a name for themselves by screwing up. Remember the F-111,
that was supposed to "save money" by being all things to all pilots and
ended up being a worthless expensive piece of crap? Of course DOD hasn't
learned anything since, with the F-35, another hugely expensive piece of
crap resulting from a misguided attempt to "save money".

[GreyMaus]

Germany is still the best place to move troops from in an emergency.

Small item, the British Military Governer of that area was a big help
in getting Volkswagen going again. Some sources have it that the
treaties that were agreed between Western Germany and the US, that
allowed much local autonomy are still in effect. The Russians, of
course, still occupy Eastern East Prussia.

--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

[GreyMaus]

1950s type wife arrives home with much packaging, announces to
bemused husband;
"Dahling, you won't believe how much I have saved you"


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man

[Peter Flass]

I think he built four, and after the war defined the first high-level
programming language "Plankalkul" (probably missing an umlaut there
somewhere)

>
>> ('British Forces Germany' is still the largest concentration of British
>> armed forces anywhere outside the UK, and the USA still has a large
>> military presence there too.)
>
> So?
>

--
Pete

[Peter Flass]

Gareth's Downstairs Computer
<headstone255.but.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Most historical works seem to jump from
> Babbage to Turing with nary a mention of Conrad Zuse.
>

Probably most historical works in English.

--
Pete

[Scott Lurndal]

Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> writes:

>On 2017-07-23, J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> And generals are not in charge in the United States.
>
>Really? Try promoting 'defense cuts'.

It's not the generals opposing 'defense cuts', it's the
hometown politicians that don't want their base closed
or the local factory to downsize.

[jmfbahciv]

That's a shame. You could have learned a lot from her experiences.

>
> She did tell me that they had a lot of fun!

People who like to think would have fun.

/BAH

[Charles Richmond]

On 7/23/2017 9:49 PM, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 23, 2017 at 7:48:50 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>

> [snip...] [snip...] [snip...]

>
>> Zuse was ignored because he made one computer, mostly as a hobby project,
>> that got destroyed during the bombing, and had made no noticeable
>> contribution to the war effort, not because "the generals" didn't think
>> that computers mattered. Of course "the generals" had never even _heard_
>> of Colossus or the bombes or the Mark I, all of which were vastly more
>> secret than the Zuse.
>
> I have no idea of the training a WW II general had received, but I suspect
> they recognized the importance of certain timely numeric information.
> For instance, firing tables were critical for artillery to accurately
> hit the target. Logistics were critical so the troops were well

> supplied with food, ammunition, and fuel. IBM supplied the military

> with mobile punched card tabulating units which were supposedly most
> helpful in keeping track of things.
>

"Captains think about tactics. Colonels think about strategy. Generals
think about logistics."

[Michael Black]

Yes, but also having read one book about Bletchley Park last year, they
got out of London to a relatively small location in rural England. Apart
from getting away from the London bombings, it probably did have that
aspect of "summer camp" because they were sort of in a vacation setting,
and probably interacted mostly with people doing the same work, even if
they couldn't talk about that work after work.

Michael

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2017-07-23, Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:

<shudder> Sounds like a science fiction story or two that I've read.

One of my images of Hell is having to maintain payroll systems forever.

--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

[Jon Elson]

Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:

> Most historical works seem to jump from
> Babbage to Turing with nary a mention of Conrad Zuse.

If you aren't German, or a real computer history geek, then Zuse is just
TOTALLY unknown. I doubt he was the only one to be unknown, either.

Jon

[Whiskers]

'Hut 33' is a BBC radio sitcom set in Bletchley Park in the 1940s;
repeats pop up on Radio 4 Extra and iPlayer
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007r8hg>.

[Peter Flass]

Makes you wonder how much hanky-panky went on, maybe "no sex please, we're
British"?

--
Pete

[Scott Lurndal]

Jon Elson <jme...@wustl.edu> writes:
>Gareth's Downstairs Computer wrote:
>
>> Most historical works seem to jump from
>> Babbage to Turing with nary a mention of Conrad Zuse.
>
>If you aren't German, or a real computer history geek, then Zuse is just
>TOTALLY unknown.

Actually, we studied him in school (The same school where
John Atanasoff and Clifford Berry invented the ABC computer
in the 1930's).

[Andreas Eder]

On Mo 24 Jul 2017 at 07:46, Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think he built four, and after the war defined the first high-level
> programming language "Plankalkul" (probably missing an umlaut there
> somewhere)

Yes, it is "Plankalkül". See the u with the two dots on it?

'Andreas

[Michael Black]

That's a good question. I gather more of that might have gone on
generally "because of the war", but yes, they'd get to know people in that
small area, so it might lead to that sort of thing.

The book I read didn't go into that.

Michael

[Bob Eager]

I've read a load of stuff, and been there often. Never heard anything
either. The only trace of it was in the film 'Enigma', I think! And that
was not based much on reality and was filmed in a different location too.

--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

[J. Clarke]

In article <1660540960.522587389.671...@news.eternal-
september.org>, peter...@yahoo.com says...

He built the Z1, which was a programmable mechanical calculator, in his
parents' apartment. He built the Z2, which was more of the same only
relay-based, also in his parents' apartment. The Z3, while it was Turing-
complete, wasn't designed as a general purpose computer--its Turing-
completeness wasn't discovered until Zuse had been dead for several years.

That machine was destroyed by an air raid in 1943.

So at the end of the war he had no operational machine, only a partially
built prototype, so why would anybody take him seriously?

As for Plankalkul, saying it was the first high level language is somewhat
misleading--it was an idea, and in 1948 a paper, and wasn't actually
implemented until 1975.

[J. Clarke]

In article <alpine.LNX.2.02.1...@darkstar.example.org>,
et...@ncf.ca says...

I remember reading that the reason that the British thought the Americans
were "oversexed" is that they wanted to kiss on the first date. Apparently
on average a girl, British or American, would sleep with a guy on the sixth
date, but a British girl wouldn't kiss a guy unless she was ready to sleep
with him.

So I suspect that as much hanky-panky went on at Bletchley as in any
American community of the same size and composition.

[Andrew Swallow]

Although there was an American Hut at Bletchley it was basically a
British site.

[David Wade]

I don't think so. Zuse is pretty well known, but as far as we know he
existed in a bubble of his own and didn't influence computing in general.

People keep trying to say he met Turing but no UK government records
seem to exist, and if he did it was after Colossus had been built so
whilst Zuse had general purpose machines in relays, I am pretty sure at
that point Turing was already savey to the fact you could build totally
electronic general purpose machines with just valves/tubes and no relays...

Dave

[Whiskers]

I've heard rumours that some of the sheds where machines were running
for long periods, got so hot that the workers stripped to their
underwear. I'm sure that would have got some people interested.

[Richard Thiebaud]

Probably not if it was that hot.

[Michael Black]

I think this has morphed to "US personnel in England in general during
WWII".

I've rezd, but it was a novel, that there was a certain resentment of the
US personnel, coming in "late" but loaded with supplies, and then able to
woo the women with those luxury items that the US personnel was supplied
with. That's after some years of hardship in the UK because they'd been
fighting alone, and suffered lots of rationing.

Michael

[Michael Black]

It didn't have to take place in that shed. But having seen each other in
underwear, later they'd have those pleasant memories to pursue.

Michael

[Scott Lurndal]

Although underwear in 1940 wasn't particularly pleasant.