Re: Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Jun 20, 2012, 9:05:17 AM6/20/12

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Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:
> note the referenced article also makes quotes somebody as saying
> Commercial Credit was loan-shark operation
>
> Senators Grovel, Embarrass Themselves at Dimon Hearing
> http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/senators-grovel-embarrass-themselves-at-dimon-hearing-20120615

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#79 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

Math, leverage and risk
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/NF20Dj03.html?goback=.gmp_127198.gde_127198_member_126300363

from above:

Benoit Mandelbrot, in his 2004 The Misbehavior of Markets, had pointed
them out with mathematical elegance we could not hope to match
(Mandelbrot had pointed out flaws in the emerging underlying theory as
early as 1962).

... snip ...

older article saying same thing slightly differently:
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/how-wall-streets-quants-lied-to-their-computers/

JPM with $70T gambling with $136B in risk based capital is leveraged 516
times:
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html

other recent posts mentioning JPM
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#9 JPM LOSES $2 BILLION USD!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#12 JPM LOSES $2 BILLION USD!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#14 Psychology Of Fraud: Why Good People Do Bad Things
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#16 Psychology Of Fraud: Why Good People Do Bad Things
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#20 Psychology Of Fraud: Why Good People Do Bad Things
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#48 Owl: China Swamps US Across the Board -- Made in China Computer Chips Have Back Doors, 45 Other "Ways & Means" Sucking Blood from US
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#61 Why Hasn't The Government Prosecuted Anyone For The 2008 Financial recession?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#82 How do you feel about the fact that today India has more IBM employees than US?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#83 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#87 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#5 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#25 US economic update. Everything that follows is a result of what you see here
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#31 How do you feel about the fact that today India has more IBM employees than US?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#45 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#82 Interesting News Article
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#14 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

past posts mentioning the "How Wall Street Lied to Its Computers" article
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#49 VMware Chief Says the OS Is History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#52 Technology and the current crisis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#53 Your thoughts on the following comprehensive bailout plan please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#56 VMware Chief Says the OS Is History
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#65 Whether, in our financial crisis, the prize for being the biggest liar is
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#69 Another quiet week in finance
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#72 Why was Sarbanes-Oxley not good enough to sent alarms to the regulators about the situation arising today?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#78 Isn't it the Federal Reserve role to oversee the banking system??
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#80 Why did Sox not prevent this financal crises?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008n.html#82 Fraud in financial institution
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#15 Financial Crisis - the result of uncontrolled Innovation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#18 Once the dust settles, do you think Milton Friedman's economic theories will be laid to rest
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#19 What's your view of current global financial / economical situation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#26 SOX (Sarbanes-Oxley Act), is this really followed and worthful considering current Financial Crisis?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#28 Does anyone get the idea that those responsible for containing this finanical crisis are doing too much?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#34 The human plague
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#75 In light of the recent financial crisis, did Sarbanes-Oxley fail to work?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#82 Greenspan testimony and securization
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008o.html#83 Chip-and-pin card reader supply-chain subversion 'has netted millions from British shoppers'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008p.html#8 Global Melt Down
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008p.html#70 Is there any technology that we are severely lacking in the Financial industry?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008q.html#49 Have not the following principles been practically disproven, once and for all, by the current global financial meltdown?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008q.html#50 Obama, ACORN, subprimes (Re: Spiders)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#58 Blinkenlights
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008r.html#64 Is This a Different Kind of Financial Crisis?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#8 Top financial firms of US are eyeing on bailout. It implies to me that their "Risk Management Department's" assessment was way below expectations
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#9 Blind-sided, again. Why?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#23 Garbage in, garbage out trampled by Moore's law
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#29 Let IT run the company!
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#35 Is American capitalism and greed to blame for our financial troubles in the US?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#55 Is this the story behind the crunchy credit stuff?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#62 Garbage in, garbage out trampled by Moore's law
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009.html#14 What are the challenges in risk analytics post financial crisis?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009.html#63 CROOKS and NANNIES: what would Boyd do?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009.html#80 Are reckless risks a natural fallout of "excessive" executive compensation ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009b.html#36 A great article was posted in another BI group: "To H*** with Business Intelligence: 40 Percent of Execs Trust Gut"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009b.html#53 Credit & Risk Management ... go Simple ?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009b.html#54 In your opinion, which facts caused the global crise situation?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009b.html#65 What can agencies such as the SEC do to insure us that something like Madoff's Ponzi scheme will never happen again?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009c.html#4 How to defeat new telemarketing tactic
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009c.html#28 How to defeat new telemarketing tactic
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009d.html#16 The Formula That Killed Wall Street
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009d.html#18 HSBC is expected to announce a profit, which is good, what did they do differently?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009d.html#30 I need insight on the Stock Market
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009d.html#36 Bernanke Says Regulators Must Protect Against Systemic Risks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009d.html#40 Bernanke Says Regulators Must Protect Against Systemic Risks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009d.html#59 Quiz: Evaluate your level of Spreadsheet risk
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009e.html#8 The background reasons of Credit Crunch
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009g.html#1 Future of Financial Mathematics?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009g.html#31 OODA-loop obfuscation
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009h.html#29 Analysing risk, especially credit risk in Banks, which was a major reason for the current crisis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009j.html#38 what is mortgage-backed securities?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009n.html#49 Opinions on the 'Unix Haters' Handbook'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2009o.html#21 Opinions on the 'Unix Haters' Handbook'
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#87 search engine history, was Happy DEC-10 Day
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010l.html#40 Who is Really to Blame for the Financial Crisis?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010p.html#66 No command, and control
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#53 What do you think about fraud prevention in the governments?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011.html#75 America's Defense Meltdown
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011b.html#42 Productivity And Bubbles
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011k.html#56 50th anniversary of BASIC, COBOL?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011l.html#10 Cracking the code
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011l.html#69 computer bootlaces
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#67 How Economists Contributed to the Financial Crisis
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#95 Bank of America Fined $1 Billion for Mortgage Fraud
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#32 US real-estate has lost $7T in value
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#63 One maths formula and the financial crash

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Jun 28, 2012, 11:05:47 PM6/28/12

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Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:
> older article saying same thing slightly differently:
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/how-wall-streets-quants-lied-to-their-computers/
>
> JPM with $70T gambling with $136B in risk based capital is leveraged 516
> times:
> http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#17 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

JPMorgan Trading Loss May Reach $9 Billion
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/06/28/jpmorgan-trading-loss-may-reach-9-billion/

and

Banker to the Bankers Knows the Numbers Are Lying
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-28/banker-to-the-bankers-knows-the-numbers-are-lying.html

from above:

So there you have it. More than four years after the financial crisis
began, it's so widely accepted that many of the world's banks are
burying losses and overstating their asset values, even the Bank for
International Settlements is saying so -- in writing. (The BIS's board
includes Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke and Mario Draghi,
president of the European Central Bank.) It fully expects taxpayers to
pick up the tab should the need arise, too.

... snip ...

aka ... not just EU banks ... but the numbers for US "too-big-to-fail"
are fabricate.

recent posts mentioning JPM

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#12 JPM LOSES $2 BILLION USD!

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#82 How do you feel about the fact that today India has more IBM employees than US?

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#87 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#5 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#45 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#29 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

jmfbahciv

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Jun 29, 2012, 10:00:30 AM6/29/12

to

Bernanke's bias is banking and he won't do anything which will hurt
that industry. I'm not sure an economist in his position is any
better because they can't consider the day-to-day trade/money flows.
(I'm writing this badly.)

>
> ... snip ...
>
> aka ... not just EU banks ... but the numbers for US "too-big-to-fail"
> are fabricate.

<snip ref-list>

Politicians have no stomach to do what has to be done. The fixing
isn't going to happen until after the spending creates a complete
trade/financial melt-down. Politicians don't know how to "cut their
losses" because it's counter to getting reelected. Spain is
getting rewarded for bad management. The EU loan policies which got
those countries in such big messes is still continuing. The US
seems to believe that spending a trillion will get back a million.
Meanwhile, the Islamic extremists are winning with the West's help.
That's going to create another 1970s energy crisis; the probability
that this will be solved with atomic bombs is 85%.

/BAH

maus

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Jun 29, 2012, 12:55:04 PM6/29/12

to

On 2012-06-29, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:
>>> older article saying same thing slightly differently:
>>> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/how-wall-streets-quants-lied-to-th
> eir-computers/
>
>>>

> aka ... not just EU banks ... but the numbers for US "too-big-to-fail"
>> are fabricate.
>
><snip ref-list>
>
> Politicians have no stomach to do what has to be done. The fixing
> isn't going to happen until after the spending creates a complete
> trade/financial melt-down. Politicians don't know how to "cut their
> losses" because it's counter to getting reelected. Spain is
> getting rewarded for bad management. The EU loan policies which got
> those countries in such big messes is still continuing. The US
> seems to believe that spending a trillion will get back a million.
> Meanwhile, the Islamic extremists are winning with the West's help.

Why the West is helping is the puzzle.

> That's going to create another 1970s energy crisis; the probability
> that this will be solved with atomic bombs is 85%.

Why 85%? Why not 5%, 10% or other. The wish may be father to the
thought. Nuclear weapons would be the preffered tool for numerically
inferior countries (The US used them against Japan, because they didn't
want the losses that a conventional attack would cause)so the most
likely user in the Mid East is Israel. The greater part of the population
of the area that was pre-1948 Palestine are Muslim, whereas there are
minimal numbers of Jews in the Non-Israeli Middle East. Even Tel-Aviv
has a fairly large population of Muslims.

--
maus
.
.
...

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

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Jun 29, 2012, 1:33:44 PM6/29/12

to

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:
> Politicians have no stomach to do what has to be done. The fixing
> isn't going to happen until after the spending creates a complete
> trade/financial melt-down. Politicians don't know how to "cut their
> losses" because it's counter to getting reelected. Spain is getting

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#60 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

i don't think it is their stomach ... other than maybe feeding at the
trough we are talking about.

I've mentioned before that Jan2009, I was asked to HTML'ize the Pecora
hearings (30s senate hearings into '29 crash, scan'ed fall2008 at boston
public library) with extensive internal x-links and indexing as well as
URLs corresponding to what happened then and what happened this time.
(some assumption that the new congress had "appetite" to do something).
A couple months later got a call saying it wouldn't be needed after all
(some comments about wallstreet spreading enormous amounts of money on
capital hill).

This starts off with respect to medicare part-d ... one of the first
legislation after congress allowed the fiscal responsibility act to
expire in 2002 (comptroller general would refer to it as unfunded
mandated growing to $40T totally swamping all other items) but it then
mentions earmarks (directed appropriations).

The Open-Source Everything Manifesto: Transparency, Truth, and Trust
http://www.phibetaiota.net/2012/02/2012-manifesto-for-truth-intelligence-with-integrity-in-the-public-interest-evolver-editions-july-2012/

loc:1560-66:

This is consistent with the known "fee" that members of Congress
charge for delivering earmarks: five percent of the cost of the
taxpayer-funded project. In other words, Congress mandated that we pay
one hundred percent of the asked cost instead of one percent of that,
the true cost, because it secured their five percent.

... snip ...

there is whole eco-system here, lobbying organizations will charge 10%
for directed appropriations (earmarks) ... but then has to split with
congress. book goes on to mention that it considers only three in both
houses of congress that aren't corrupted by the process.

cbs 60mins had segment specifically on medicare part-d and the "18"
(congressmen and staffers) moving it through the process; at the last
minute before the vote they slip in one line change that prohibits
competitive bidding and blocks a CBO report on the effect of the change,
from being distributed until after the vote. short time later, all 18
had resigned and were on drug industry payrolls. Then 60mins showed
side-by-side comparison, VA (which allows competitive bidding) drugs
1/3rd the price of identical drugs under part-d.

recent posts mentioning pecora hearings and/or medicare part-d
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#6 We are on the brink of a historic decision [referring to defence cuts]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#5 The round wheels industry is heading for collapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#56 What's the most interesting thing you do in your non-work life?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#37 US real-estate has lost $7T in value
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#52 PC industry is heading for more change
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#32 PC industry is heading for more change
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#36 McCain calls for U.S.-led airstrikes in Syria
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#7 Adult Supervision
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#28 REPEAL OF GLASS-STEAGALL DID NOT CAUSE THE FINANCIAL CRISIS - WHAT DO YOU THINK?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#56 Why Hasn't The Government Prosecuted Anyone For The 2008 Financial recession?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#64 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#67 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#36 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#40 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#53 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#61 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#68 Interesting News Article
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#75 Interesting News Article
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#0 Interesting News Article
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#41 Lawmakers reworked financial portfolios after talks with Fed, Treasury officials

Rod Speed

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Jun 29, 2012, 2:53:34 PM6/29/12

to

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004C39...@aca24f22.ipt.aol.com...

That’s not right. He's actually an expert on what caused the great
depression.

> and he won't do anything which will hurt that industry.

He did just that, pulled the plug on plenty of them.

> I'm not sure an economist in his position is any better because
> they can't consider the day-to-day trade/money flows.

They did just that when the whole system froze up because
no one had any idea about what the risk was with overnight
money lending once the shit had hit the fan.

> (I'm writing this badly.)

>> aka ... not just EU banks ... but the numbers
>> for US "too-big-to-fail" are fabricate.

> Politicians have no stomach to do what has to be done.

They have enough of a clue to realise that the last thing we
need is another great depression or worse. BOTH sides.

> The fixing isn't going to happen until after the
> spending creates a complete trade/financial melt-down.

There isnt going to be a complete trade/financial melt-down.

Unemployment only got into the double digits for a
couple of quarters and then headed back down again.

There wasn’t even a complete trade/financial
melt-down in the great depression either.

> Politicians don't know how to "cut their losses"
> because it's counter to getting reelected.

They realise that another great depression or worse
is absolutely guaranteed to not get them re-elected.

That’s why even the stupid shrub did something to avoid that.

> Spain is getting rewarded for bad management.

Like hell it is. Its getting bailed out because the
eurozone will implode very spectacularly indeed if Spain,
Italy and Greece are allowed to go down the tubes.

> The EU loan policies which got those countries in such big messes

That’s nothing like what actually happened.

> is still continuing.

Because there is no alternative.

> The US seems to believe that spending a trillion will get back a million.

Like hell it does.

> Meanwhile, the Islamic extremists are winning with the West's help.

Like hell they are.

> That's going to create another 1970s energy crisis;

Fantasy.

> the probability that this will be solved with atomic bombs is 85%.

Completely off with the fucking fairys.

jmfbahciv

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Jun 30, 2012, 9:48:35 AM6/30/12

to

maus wrote:
> On 2012-06-29, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:
>>>> older article saying same thing slightly differently:
>>>>
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/how-wall-streets-quants-lied-to-th
>> eir-computers/
>>
>>>>
>> aka ... not just EU banks ... but the numbers for US "too-big-to-fail"
>>> are fabricate.
>>
>><snip ref-list>
>>
>> Politicians have no stomach to do what has to be done. The fixing
>> isn't going to happen until after the spending creates a complete
>> trade/financial melt-down. Politicians don't know how to "cut their
>> losses" because it's counter to getting reelected. Spain is
>> getting rewarded for bad management. The EU loan policies which got
>> those countries in such big messes is still continuing. The US
>> seems to believe that spending a trillion will get back a million.
>> Meanwhile, the Islamic extremists are winning with the West's help.
>
> Why the West is helping is the puzzle.

No, it's not. I refer to history which has to do with opening the
gates to barbarians. Anything will be done to "defeat" the perceived
_local_ political opponent with the fantasy belief that things will
revert back to normal after the barbarians trash the place.

>
>> That's going to create another 1970s energy crisis; the probability
>> that this will be solved with atomic bombs is 85%.
>
> Why 85%? Why not 5%, 10% or other.

Because the goal is to destroy Western civilization. The first
bomb strike will come from Iran or the Saudis. The Sauddis and
Iranians each have their sights on the very old goal of being
the political center of Islam.

> The wish may be father to the
> thought. Nuclear weapons would be the preffered tool for numerically
> inferior countries (The US used them against Japan, because they didn't
> want the losses that a conventional attack would cause)so the most
> likely user in the Mid East is Israel. The greater part of the population
> of the area that was pre-1948 Palestine are Muslim, whereas there are
> minimal numbers of Jews in the Non-Israeli Middle East. Even Tel-Aviv
> has a fairly large population of Muslims.

You still don't understand and I don't think you ever will change
your mindset. Islam is at war within itself. The tactic is
to destroy Western Civilization. The goal is to be the political
ruler of the Islamic world. The geography of this empire is the
globe. The Ottoman Empire tried to spread throughout the world; their
supply chain stopped before they got to Germany. so that was the
extent of their reach. With today's technology and world-wide
less-than-24-hours trade routes, the extent of the spread is
the entire globe.

/BAH

maus

unread,

Jun 30, 2012, 10:50:19 AM6/30/12

to

On 2012-06-30, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
> maus wrote:
>> On 2012-06-29, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:
>>>>> older article saying same thing slightly differently:
>>>>>
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/how-wall-streets-quants-lied-to-th
>>> eir-computers/
>>>
>>>>>
>>> aka ... not just EU banks ... but the numbers for US "too-big-to-fail"
>>>> are fabricate.
>>>
>>><snip ref-list>
>

> No, it's not. I refer to history which has to do with opening the
> gates to barbarians. Anything will be done to "defeat" the perceived
> _local_ political opponent with the fantasy belief that things will
> revert back to normal after the barbarians trash the place.
>>
>>> That's going to create another 1970s energy crisis; the probability
>>> that this will be solved with atomic bombs is 85%.
>>
>> Why 85%? Why not 5%, 10% or other.
>
> Because the goal is to destroy Western civilization. The first
> bomb strike will come from Iran or the Saudis. The Sauddis and
> Iranians each have their sights on the very old goal of being
> the political center of Islam.
>

s I pointed out, nuclear weapons don't suit the Muslim/Arab cause.
My point in the percentages is why pick 85% as the probability
that nuclear weapons will be used. I have a rough idea of the liklihood
of making threes from pairs in poker, ummm, something like (3/24)..
So, what do you base the 85% on. Do you know, even distantly, any of
the people involved.?

>
> You still don't understand and I don't think you ever will change
> your mindset. Islam is at war within itself.

u mentioned once that you visited Northern Ireland. Nuff said.?

> The tactic is
> to destroy Western Civilization. The goal is to be the political
> ruler of the Islamic world. The geography of this empire is the
> globe. The Ottoman Empire tried to spread throughout the world; their
> supply chain stopped before they got to Germany. so that was the
> extent of their reach. With today's technology and world-wide
> less-than-24-hours trade routes, the extent of the spread is
> the entire globe.

>
> /BAH

Anne & Lynn Wheeler

unread,

Jun 30, 2012, 11:05:08 AM6/30/12

to

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> writes:
> No, it's not. I refer to history which has to do with opening the
> gates to barbarians. Anything will be done to "defeat" the perceived
> _local_ political opponent with the fantasy belief that things will
> revert back to normal after the barbarians trash the place.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#17 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#60 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#63 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

"Fall of Romam Empire"
http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Roman-Empire-Barbarians-ebook/dp/B000SEI0JQ/

has combination of factors ... fall of the western capital was a 1)
frequent waring factions for succession/emperor (lots of assignations
and military coups), 2) fall of carthage ... economic power house for
the western empire (after carthage fell, lots of the tax exemptions for
the super wealthy had to be eliminated to try and make up for the loss),
and 3) increasing pressure from outside the empire (weather went through
a warming period and growing season in northern europe lengthened to
support significant increase in population across the northern border of
the western roman empire). Big part of the fall of carthage was because
somebody felt their wasn't any threat in northern africa ... so they
moved those troops to northern europe, possibly as part of some internal
dispute between waring factions.

eastern empire had sent forces to help retake carthage (the wealth of
carthage had also been used to maintain the large standing army on the
northern border, as well as line the pockets of politicians) ... but
then Huns appeared on their eastern border and the forces had to be
brought home. Huns then circled around to the north ... which was
driving local population across northern border of the western roman
empire.

some similarities are our internal economic scortched earth with the
latest bubble and failure to fix things afterwards ... some touched on
in this (linkedin) "Greater IBM" (current/former employee) thread:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#48 Thousands Of IBM Employees Got A Nasty Surprise Yesterday: Here's The Email They Saw
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#65 Thousands Of IBM Employees Got A Nasty Surprise Yesterday: Here's The Email They Saw

recent reference to venality of the military-industrial-congressional
complex (frequently doing the "wrong" thing) ... although "America's
Defense Meltdown"
http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Defense-Meltdown-President-ebook/dp/B001TKD4SA/
does mention that the venality of the military-industrial-congressional
complex has been drawfed by the venality of the
financial-regulatory-congressional complex
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#62 Early use of the word "computer"
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#64 Early use of the word "computer"

also discussed in "Age of Greed"
http://www.amazon.com/Age-Greed-Triumph-Finance-ebook/dp/B004DEPF6I/

other recent posts mentioning "Age of Greed":
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#3 We are on the brink of a historic decision [referring to defence cuts]
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#30 Age of Greed: The Triumph of Finance and the Decline of America, 1970 to the Present
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#31 Who originated the phrase "user-friendly"?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#37 Romney's Opponents Intensify Attacks as Voting Nears
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#40 Age of Greed: The Triumph of Finance and the Decline of America, 1970 to the Present
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#45 You may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#47 Avoiding a lost decade
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#48 Fed's image tarnished by newly released documents
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#57 The Myth of Work-Life Balance
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#62 Railroaded
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#70 Regulatory Agency logo
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#72 Chris Dodd's SOPA crusading
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#77 Age of Greed: The Triumph of Finance and the Decline of America, 1970 to the Present
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#79 Bain: A consulting firm too hot to handle? (Fortune, 1987)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#87 The PC industry is heading for collapse
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#92 Has anyone successfully migrated off mainframes?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012.html#95 Can anyone offer some insight
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#12 Sun Tzu, Boyd, strategy and extensions of same
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#19 "Buffett Tax" and truth in numbers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#29 The speeds of thought, complexities of problems
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#43 Where are all the old tech workers?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#54 The New Age Bounty Hunger -- Showdown at the SEC Corral
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#74 IBM Doing Some Restructuring?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#90 IBM Doing Some Restructuring?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012b.html#99 New theory of moral behavior may explain recent ethical lapses in banking industry
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#2 Occupy the SEC (Securities & Exchange Commission)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#5 Too big not to fail
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#19 Occupy the SEC Pitches An Extreme Makeover of Wall Street
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#54 PC industry is heading for more change
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012c.html#62 Why Is Finance So Big?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#13 PC industry is heading for more change
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#14 PC industry is heading for more change
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#48 IBM cuts more than 1,000 U.S. workers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012d.html#71 Memory versus processor speed
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012e.html#91 The Fractal Organization: Creating sustainable organizations with the Viable System Model
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#35 Inequality and Investment Bubbles: A Clearer Link Is Established
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#66 Predator GE: We Bring Bad Things to Life
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#74 Psychology Of Fraud: Why Good People Do Bad Things
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012f.html#86 The Dangers of High-Frequency Trading; Wall Street's Speed Freaks
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#7 Adult Supervision

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#16 Psychology Of Fraud: Why Good People Do Bad Things
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#20 Psychology Of Fraud: Why Good People Do Bad Things

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#22 Psychology Of Fraud: Why Good People Do Bad Things
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#73 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#80 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#84 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#16 Hierarchy

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#25 US economic update. Everything that follows is a result of what you see here

http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#26 US economic update. Everything that follows is a result of what you see here
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#27 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#29 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#31 How do you feel about the fact that today India has more IBM employees than US?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#32 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#37 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#38 Other Than In Computers, Civilization Basically Stopped Progressing In The 1960s
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#41 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012h.html#46 How do you feel about the fact that today India has more IBM employees than US?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012i.html#1 Monopoly/ Cartons of Punch Cards

Dan Espen

unread,

Jun 30, 2012, 11:28:40 AM6/30/12

to

Congratulations.

Easily crazier than anything you've posted so far.

Completely out of control paranoia and xenophobia.

But you're not a right winger because you're female.
Got it.

--
Dan Espen

Ibmekon

unread,

Jun 30, 2012, 11:36:43 AM6/30/12

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On 30 Jun 2012 14:50:19 GMT, maus <grey...@mail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>s I pointed out, nuclear weapons don't suit the Muslim/Arab cause.
>My point in the percentages is why pick 85% as the probability
>that nuclear weapons will be used. I have a rough idea of the liklihood
>of making threes from pairs in poker, ummm, something like (3/24)..
>So, what do you base the 85% on. Do you know, even distantly, any of
>the people involved.?
>

<snip>

Know what you mean about poker.

I think in terms of horse racing odds - 85% winning chance is odds of
17/3 on.

Which does not exist - the nearest would be 6/1 on.

Carl Goldsworthy

Rod Speed

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Jun 30, 2012, 2:47:57 PM6/30/12

to

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message

news:PM0004C3B...@aca21c12.ipt.aol.com...

> maus wrote:
>> On 2012-06-29, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler <ly...@garlic.com> writes:
>>>>> older article saying same thing slightly differently:
>>>>>
> http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/18/how-wall-streets-quants-lied-to-th
>>> eir-computers/
>>>
>>>>>
>>> aka ... not just EU banks ... but the numbers for US "too-big-to-fail"
>>>> are fabricate.
>>>
>>><snip ref-list>
>>>
>>> Politicians have no stomach to do what has to be done. The fixing
>>> isn't going to happen until after the spending creates a complete
>>> trade/financial melt-down. Politicians don't know how to "cut their
>>> losses" because it's counter to getting reelected. Spain is
>>> getting rewarded for bad management. The EU loan policies which got
>>> those countries in such big messes is still continuing. The US
>>> seems to believe that spending a trillion will get back a million.
>>> Meanwhile, the Islamic extremists are winning with the West's help.

>> Why the West is helping is the puzzle.

> No, it's not. I refer to history which has to do with opening
> the gates to barbarians. Anything will be done to "defeat" the
> perceived _local_ political opponent with the fantasy belief that
> things will revert back to normal after the barbarians trash the place.

There are no barbarians, that’s always been just another silly little
fantasy.

The west has always been into allowing huge mass movements of
people and the west wouldn’t be anything like it is today without that.

That’s been going on for millennia now and is part of the
reason the west has been so much more successful than some
other places that have attempted to be much more insular.

>>> That's going to create another 1970s energy crisis; the
>>> probability that this will be solved with atomic bombs is 85%.

Completely off with the fucking fairys.

>> Why 85%? Why not 5%, 10% or other.

> Because the goal is to destroy Western civilization.

Doesn’t matter what their gaol is, it aint gunna happen.

Its completely undestroyable and has been for millennia now.

> The first bomb strike will come from Iran or the Saudis.

Mindlessly silly. They know what a comprehensive fucking
over they would get if they were stupid enough to try that.

> The Sauddis and Iranians each have their sights on
> the very old goal of being the political center of Islam.

And neither group ever manages to dominate.

We saw the same thing with protestants and catholics too.

>> The wish may be father to the
>> thought. Nuclear weapons would be the preffered tool for numerically
>> inferior countries (The US used them against Japan, because they didn't
>> want the losses that a conventional attack would cause)so the most
>> likely user in the Mid East is Israel. The greater part of the population
>> of the area that was pre-1948 Palestine are Muslim, whereas there are
>> minimal numbers of Jews in the Non-Israeli Middle East. Even Tel-Aviv
>> has a fairly large population of Muslims.

> You still don't understand

Neither do you.

> and I don't think you ever will change your mindset.

You in spades.

> Islam is at war within itself.

So was christianity for just as long.

> The tactic is to destroy Western Civilization.

A few might well be attempting to do that, but they wont succeed.

< The goal is to be the political ruler of the Islamic world.

They wont succeed at that either.

> The geography of this empire is the globe.

Nope.

> The Ottoman Empire tried to spread throughout the world;

Like hell it ever did. The most it ever managed was a decent chunk
of the middle east, a pimple on the bum of the entire world.

> their supply chain stopped before they got to Germany.

They didn’t get anywhere near germany.

> so that was the extent of their reach.

It didn’t even reach that far.

> With today's technology and world-wide less-than-24-hours
> trade routes, the extent of the spread is the entire globe.

Fantasy. Christianity has spread MUCH further.

Andrew Swallow

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Jun 30, 2012, 3:09:10 PM6/30/12

to

On 30/06/2012 14:48, jmfbahciv wrote:
{snip}

> You still don't understand and I don't think you ever will change
> your mindset. Islam is at war within itself. The tactic is
> to destroy Western Civilization. The goal is to be the political
> ruler of the Islamic world. The geography of this empire is the
> globe. The Ottoman Empire tried to spread throughout the world; their
> supply chain stopped before they got to Germany. so that was the
> extent of their reach. With today's technology and world-wide
> less-than-24-hours trade routes, the extent of the spread is
> the entire globe.
>
> /BAH
>

The civilian supply train allows the Islamic forces to move individuals
and small groups. It does not allow the movement of armies.

Andrew Swallow

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Jul 1, 2012, 11:46:49 AM7/1/12

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In article <a59qas...@mid.individual.net>, rod.sp...@gmail.com

(Rod Speed) wrote:

> Nope, the ancient Greeks also used that term and it basically
> just meant those outside the respective empires.

Well in the Greek case it was usually applied to people who could speak
fluent Greek. I believe that while they had the choice Athenians
considered Macedonians semi civilised at best.

Ken Young

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Jul 1, 2012, 2:32:12 PM7/1/12

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"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message

news:PM0004C3C...@aca22fbc.ipt.aol.com...

Nope, because no one ever will, particularly with the great swathes
of islam that arent even in the middle east like Indonesia, Afghanistan
etc etc etc.

>> My point in the percentages is why pick 85% as the probability
>> that nuclear weapons will be used. I have a rough idea of the liklihood
>> of making threes from pairs in poker, ummm, something like (3/24)..
>> So, what do you base the 85% on. Do you know, even distantly, any of
>> the people involved.?

> It's a guesstimate.

Its straight from your arse, we can tell from the smell.

> I'm usually off by 10.

Like hell you are on something like that.

>>> You still don't understand and I don't think you ever
>>> will change your mindset. Islam is at war within itself.

>> u mentioned once that you visited Northern Ireland. Nuff said.?

> I'm simply accepting the bias. I'm not judging nor trying
> to argue the point because we've done this already.

You keep closing your eyes to the fact that christianity
has been MUCH worse than Islam on that stuff.

Yes, Islam lags very dramatically. Those fools havent
even managed to work out the value of the separation
of church and state yet in the worst of Islam.

Rod Speed

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Jul 1, 2012, 2:34:46 PM7/1/12

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"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004C3C...@aca22fbc.ipt.aol.com...

Been there, did that, long before you ever did.

> and listen and watch what is really going on.

I've actually lived in islamic countrys for years. You havent.;

> You must like to have sand between your teeth.

No one has got any sand between their teeth.

Rod Speed

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Jul 1, 2012, 2:36:44 PM7/1/12

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"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004C3C...@aca22fbc.ipt.aol.com...

> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 30/06/2012 14:48, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> {snip}
>>> You still don't understand and I don't think you ever will change
>>> your mindset. Islam is at war within itself. The tactic is
>>> to destroy Western Civilization. The goal is to be the political
>>> ruler of the Islamic world. The geography of this empire is the
>>> globe. The Ottoman Empire tried to spread throughout the world; their
>>> supply chain stopped before they got to Germany. so that was the
>>> extent of their reach. With today's technology and world-wide
>>> less-than-24-hours trade routes, the extent of the spread is
>>> the entire globe.
>>>
>>> /BAH
>>>
>>
>> The civilian supply train allows the Islamic forces to move individuals
>> and small groups. It does not allow the movement of armies.

> The most important problem is that westerners still have
> a mindset of war as defined by the old European model.

Nope, havent done for a hell of a long time now.

> The extremists know this and use it to their advantage.

Fantasy.

> They don't need armies to conquer the world;

They havent conquered a damned thing.

> they only need armies to kill the local non-Islam and moderates.

Even sillier. They don’t use armys for that.

Rod Speed

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Jul 1, 2012, 3:35:58 PM7/1/12

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<ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4-KdnenZItt07W3S...@giganews.com...

unread,

Jul 2, 2012, 7:01:44 AM7/2/12

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Dan Espen wrote:

> I suppose they can come around eventually, but I suspect once the
> oil runs out there will be BIG problems. Even bigger than now.
> That magic combination of poverty and ignorance.

poverty and ignorance - the controlling force in oppressive societies,
not just government control, it is how countries change from first
world to third world in a generation. It is how great dominating
countries fail.

Look for any country that suppresses education and you have a
leading indicator of a downfall. The next step is enforced poverty

w..

Dan Espen

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Jul 2, 2012, 7:51:09 AM7/2/12

to

http://www.policymic.com/articles/10551/texas-republicans-2012-platform-opposes-critical-thinking-and-supports-corporal-punishment

http://tinyurl.com/c4u7caj

Texas Republicans 2012 Platform Opposes Critical Thinking...

--
Dan Espen

Peter Flass

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Jul 2, 2012, 7:55:36 AM7/2/12

to

On 7/1/2012 5:55 PM, maus wrote:
>
> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
> of that kind, as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.
>

It's not the believing that's the problem, it's the doing. Who you
worship on (Sun,Sat,Wed.Fri...) isn't that important. It's what you do
on the other 24x7-1 hours that matters.

--
Pete

Peter Flass

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Jul 2, 2012, 8:03:07 AM7/2/12

to

On 7/1/2012 8:14 PM, Dan Espen wrote:

> "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> Islam didn't even manage to work out what the industrial revolution or
>> the printing press was about. They wont be taking over the world,
>> EVER.
>
> I suppose they can come around eventually, but I suspect once the
> oil runs out there will be BIG problems. Even bigger than now.
> That magic combination of poverty and ignorance.
>

God, I *hate* it when I find myself agreeing with Rod. The reason that
"the West" is currently at the head in technology and culture and many,
but not all, Islamic states are at the other end is our ability to adapt
and readily accept innovation instead of seeing it as a threat or
something evil.

On the other hand, a recent historian has tied it to countries that were
conquered by jihad, like Persia, rather than countries that converted on
their own, like Indonesia. The obvious answer is to roll back the
conquest and stage a do-over ;-)

--
Pete

Peter Flass

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Jul 2, 2012, 8:07:35 AM7/2/12

to

On 7/2/2012 2:17 AM, maus wrote:
> On 2012-07-01, Andy Champ <no....@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> On 01/07/2012 09:37, maus wrote:
>>> Then the Caartaginians
>>> continued child sacrifice up to their last days as an independent
>>> state.
>>
>> "Controversy prevails regarding the possible existence and practice of
>> propitiatory child sacrifice in the religion of Carthage."
>>
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Carthage)
>>
>> Certainly the Romans say that their enemies were pretty nasty people -
>> but what does that prove?
>>
>> Andy
>
> Not enough time to research the data, but I have a memory of
> archeologists finding charred childrens bones near religious
> sites in Cartage. The Bible mentions `passing children through
> fire' as a Caananite ceremony, and it has been pointed out that
> Isaac was almost sacrificed by his father (which is regarded as
> the proto-Jews abandoning child sacrifice). The Greeks abandoned
> unwanted children, mentioned several times in the legends, as did
> the early Romans.

Not only "early". I believe abandoning unwanted children was pretty
common up until Christianity came in. The Romans didn't have abortion
so this was their solution. Some, at least, of these children wpu;d
have been rescued and adopted. The modern equivalent is encouraging the
leaving of unwanted children at a police station, firehouse, hospital, etc.

--
Pete

jmfbahciv

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Jul 2, 2012, 8:45:59 AM7/2/12

to

Have you been listening to their political leaders?

> as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.
>

And where have I stated that Islam is evil? There is a religious
global war going on. First is Islam against non-Islam; the second
is Islam against Islam.

/BAH

unread,

Jul 2, 2012, 2:40:54 PM7/2/12

to

Walter Banks <wal...@bytecraft.com> wrote

> Dan Espen wrote

>> I suppose they can come around eventually, but I suspect once
>> the oil runs out there will be BIG problems. Even bigger than
>> now. That magic combination of poverty and ignorance.

> poverty and ignorance - the controlling force in oppressive
> societies, not just government control, it is how countries
> change from first world to third world in a generation. It is
> how great dominating countries fail.

It isnt actually. They normally just fade into obscurity instead
as Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands etc etc etc did.

> Look for any country that suppresses education

Hardly any country actually does that, so there arent too many to look at.

> and you have a leading indicator of a downfall.

Have fun listing any examples of that.

> The next step is enforced poverty

Not necessarily. And that mainly results from breeding like
flys as we have seen with the Philippines, the Palestinians etc.

unread,

Jul 2, 2012, 3:03:39 PM7/2/12

to

"Peter Flass" <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:jss2t6$q6f$1...@dont-email.me...

In Italy they actually had wooden boxes mounted in the street
that you could leave the unwanted brat in in modern times.
That allows you to do that anonymously. That turned up in
one of the 'Who do you think you are' series. Fascinating.

Rod Speed

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Jul 2, 2012, 3:11:53 PM7/2/12

to

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004C3D...@ac82ea4d.ipt.aol.com...

You have none for islamists.

Rod Speed

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Jul 2, 2012, 3:13:43 PM7/2/12

to

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
news:PM0004C3D...@ac82ea4d.ipt.aol.com...

Nope.

> First is Islam against non-Islam;
> the second is Islam against Islam.

Corse nothing like that ever happened with Xtians, eh ?

Andy Champ

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Jul 2, 2012, 4:11:53 PM7/2/12

to

On 02/07/2012 00:10, Dan Espen wrote:
> They'll make up anything to create a boogie man.

Sometime I love typos.

All together now - Baila, mi hermana... :P

Dan Espen

unread,

Jul 2, 2012, 5:26:46 PM7/2/12

to

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
>> Walter Banks <wal...@bytecraft.com> wrote
>>> Dan Espen wrote
>
>>>> I suppose they can come around eventually, but I suspect
>>>> once the oil runs out there will be BIG problems. Even bigger
>>>> than now. That magic combination of poverty and ignorance.
>
>>> poverty and ignorance - the controlling force in oppressive societies,
>>> not just government control, it is how countries change from first world
>>> to third world in a generation. It is how great dominating
>>> countries fail.
>
>>> Look for any country that suppresses education and you have a
>>> leading indicator of a downfall. The next step is enforced poverty
>>
>> http://www.policymic.com/articles/10551/texas-republicans-2012-platform-opposes-critical-thinking-and-supports-corporal-punishment
>
>> http://tinyurl.com/c4u7caj
>
>> Texas Republicans 2012 Platform Opposes Critical Thinking...
>
> I just don't buy the line that 'An educated population is absolutely
> integral in any society' on that critical thinking stuff. Modern first
> world societys work fine even when the bulk of society isnt capable of
> doing that sort of thing and I just don't believe that the worst of
> the fundys can be taught to think critically in schools anyway. When a
> very large majority of americans believe that the CIA had JFK
> executed, just because some damned movie claims that, you have one
> hell of a problem that no education system can do anything about.

So you're against critical thinking too?

Or are you just trying to come up with something contrary?

> And I don't believe that the Texas Board of Education have any effect
> on the country at all except in the sense that they can drive the
> textbook market to some extent.

Texas first, then every other idiot dominated state will follow.

> I cant see them whacking the worst of the kids to get them to behave
> themselves in class is going to be the end of civilisation as we know
> it either.

I don't think there is much evidence either way so I don't have an
opinion. We didn't get hit (much) in public school in the 50s and 60s
but we were afraid of the teachers and did what they said.

--
Dan Espen

Dan Espen

unread,

Jul 2, 2012, 5:31:27 PM7/2/12

to

Ouch. I knew I was struggling with the spelling
for a reason.

Boogeyman.

Now what's Baila, mi hermana...

Santana, Dance Sister Dance.

Still not getting it...

--
Dan Espen

Rod Speed

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Jul 2, 2012, 6:32:35 PM7/2/12

to

Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

Nope, just don't believe its actually possible to teach that in
school to the worst of the fundys or those stupid enough to
believe some damned movie on something as important as that.

You either have what it takes to do that
between the ears or you don't basically.

Same with creative stuff too. You'll never be able to
teach most engineers how to write decent poetry to
to play anything more sophisticated than an ipod either.

> Or are you just trying to come up with something contrary?

Nope. You and your ilk can get that impression because
I just don't bother with 'I agrees' very often at all.

>> And I don't believe that the Texas Board of Education have
>> any effect on the country at all except in the sense that
>> they can drive the textbook market to some extent.

> Texas first, then every other idiot dominated state will follow.

Nope, that never happens. It hasn't even happened with
stuff as basic as executing the worst of the criminals.

>> I cant see them whacking the worst of the kids to
>> get them to behave themselves in class is going
>> to be the end of civilisation as we know it either.

> I don't think there is much evidence either way so I don't have an
> opinion.

Corporal punishment was used when I was in school
and it was quite effective with at least some of the kids.

Sure, there were certainly others that it made no difference with.

> We didn't get hit (much) in public school in the 50s and 60s

And its unclear how much the possibility that you would
get hit if you didn't behave yourself produced that result.

> but we were afraid of the teachers

We werent. I can remember one of them
getting one hell of a ragging, in the 50s.

> and did what they said.

Some kids didn't, and got whacked when they didn't.

maus

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Jul 2, 2012, 6:55:12 PM7/2/12

to

Reading of the casulty rate in orphanages up to recently is depressing.

Back to civilized versus barbarian, `civilized' would be town-dwellers,
right?

maus

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Jul 2, 2012, 6:55:13 PM7/2/12

to

On 2012-07-02, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
> maus wrote:
>> On 2012-07-01, jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm simply accepting the bias. I'm not judging nor trying to
>>> argue the point because we've done this already.
>>
>>
>> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
>> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
>> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
>> of that kind,
>
> Have you been listening to their political leaders?

Yup, and not through Zionist translation.

>
>> as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.
>>
>
> And where have I stated that Islam is evil? There is a religious
> global war going on. First is Islam against non-Islam; the second
> is Islam against Islam.

Islam is submission to the will of God.

Peter Flass

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Jul 2, 2012, 7:17:57 PM7/2/12

to

Or, as the late unlamented Osama would have it, forcing God to submit to
your will.

--
Pete

Dan Espen

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Jul 2, 2012, 7:56:08 PM7/2/12

to

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote

>> Or are you just trying to come up with something contrary?
>
> Nope. You and your ilk can get that impression because
> I just don't bother with 'I agrees' very often at all.

My "ilk"?

First, congratulations, that's pretty insulting.

Second, I don't have an "ilk".

Third, sorry for your condition.

--
Dan Espen

Rod Speed

unread,

Jul 2, 2012, 8:20:05 PM7/2/12

to

Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote

>>> Or are you just trying to come up with something contrary?

>> Nope. You and your ilk can get that impression because
>> I just don't bother with 'I agrees' very often at all.

> My "ilk"?

Yep.

> First, congratulations, that's pretty insulting.

And your original wasn't ?

Yeah, right.

> Second, I don't have an "ilk".

Corse you do, everyone does.

> Third, sorry for your condition.

And that's not an attempt at an insult ?

Yeah, right.

Walter Banks

unread,

Jul 2, 2012, 9:57:01 PM7/2/12

to

Dan Espen wrote:

> Walter Banks <wal...@bytecraft.com> writes:
>
> > Dan Espen wrote:
> >
> >> I suppose they can come around eventually, but I suspect once the
> >> oil runs out there will be BIG problems. Even bigger than now.
> >> That magic combination of poverty and ignorance.
> >
> > poverty and ignorance - the controlling force in oppressive societies,
> > not just government control, it is how countries change from first
> > world to third world in a generation. It is how great dominating
> > countries fail.
> >
> > Look for any country that suppresses education and you have a
> > leading indicator of a downfall. The next step is enforced poverty
>
> http://www.policymic.com/articles/10551/texas-republicans-2012-platform-opposes-critical-thinking-and-supports-corporal-punishment
>
> http://tinyurl.com/c4u7caj
>
> Texas Republicans 2012 Platform Opposes Critical Thinking...

It is an interesting article but it wasn't what I was thinking about
when I wrote the comment. It is some ways fits the comment.

Education is an indicator of social failure. First it takes a generation
before it is negatively noticed in the economy of a country. Politically,
killing education has immediate economic savings which makes it
a tempting solution to solve economic pressure.

The great powers have had a variety of economic models
colonization, industrialization and natural resources.

Follow the education over time and the economic effects
up and down follows by one to three generations.

w..

Walter Banks

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Jul 2, 2012, 10:12:19 PM7/2/12

to

I wasn't even thinking of Texas or the US. It was a generic
comment thinking of history. The specific area I was thinking
about was the right wing control of central and south America
50 to 100 years ago and some of the colonial powers Rome,
Spain and the UK.

The UK through two specific historical events maintained its
first nation status. The US war of independence caused major
changes in the way Britain deal with its colonies and the
industrial revolution changed the British model and created
an educated population.

w..

unread,

Jul 3, 2012, 12:04:05 AM7/3/12

to

There's ability to think and then there's a culture that
says it's better not to think.

It's double plus un-good.

--
Dan Espen

Rod Speed

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Jul 3, 2012, 1:22:00 AM7/3/12

to

"Dan Espen" <des...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:icfw99i...@home.home...

I believe that last is seen with those who cant think for themselves.

> It's double plus un-good.

Sure, but that's what all religions are about, do what some
damned book says you should do, not what makes sense
that you have thought out for yourself.

Peter Flass

unread,

Jul 3, 2012, 7:26:01 AM7/3/12

to

On 7/2/2012 7:56 PM, Dan Espen wrote:
> "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
>>> Or are you just trying to come up with something contrary?
>>
>> Nope. You and your ilk can get that impression because
>> I just don't bother with 'I agrees' very often at all.
>
> My "ilk"?
>
> First, congratulations, that's pretty insulting.
>
> Second, I don't have an "ilk".

Too bad, you should give it a try ;-)

--
Pete

jmfbahciv

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Jul 3, 2012, 7:50:31 AM7/3/12

to

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:03:07 -0400
> Peter Flass <Peter...@Yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> God, I *hate* it when I find myself agreeing with Rod.
>

unread,

Jul 3, 2012, 12:59:22 PM7/3/12

to

In article <PM0004C3E...@aca34216.ipt.aol.com>, See....@aol.com

Like politicians, career bureaucrats, takeover artists...

--
/~\ cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

D.J.

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Jul 3, 2012, 12:51:34 PM7/3/12

to

On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 09:49:56 -0500, "Charles Richmond"
<nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:PM0004C3E...@aca34216.ipt.aol.com...
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:PM0004C3D...@ac82ea4d.ipt.aol.com...
>>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>> On 7/1/2012 5:55 PM, maus wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
>>>>>> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
>>>>>> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
>>>>>> of that kind, as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not the believing that's the problem, it's the doing. Who you
>>>>> worship on (Sun,Sat,Wed.Fri...) isn't that important. It's what you do
>>>>> on the other 24x7-1 hours that matters.
>>>>>
>>>> THat's called tolerance. The Christian and Islamic conservatives have
>>>> none.
>>>
>>> You have none for islamists.
>>>
>> I have none for people whose sole purpose in life is to destroy
>> the productive work of others.
>>
>
>When you say "destroy the productive work of others"... are you thinking of
>John Boehner and the Republicans??? They are lying, mean-spirited
>obstructionists who just want to get in the way of progress.

And they are cutting back on education.

Afterall, if the populace is uneducated the politicians stand a better
chance of fooling everyone all of the time.

JimP.
--
Brushing aside the thorns so I can see the stars.
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ Drive-In movie theaters
http://story.drivein-jim.net/ A story Feb, 2011

Rod Speed

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Jul 3, 2012, 1:44:36 PM7/3/12

to

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote

>>> Peter Flass wrote

>>>> maus wrote

>>>>> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
>>>>> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
>>>>> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
>>>>> of that kind, as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.

>>>> It's not the believing that's the problem, it's the doing.
>>>> Who you worship on (Sun,Sat,Wed.Fri...) isn't that important.
>>>> It's what you do on the other 24x7-1 hours that matters.

>>> THat's called tolerance. The Christian and Islamic conservatives have
>>> none.

>> You have none for islamists.

> I have none for people whose sole purpose in
> life is to destroy the productive work of others.

But only a tiny subset of Islamists are into anything like that.

A MUCH smaller subset than with stupid Xtians, particularly
the worst of the Repugs like that fool/arsehole Boehner.

Dan Espen

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Jul 3, 2012, 5:46:06 PM7/3/12

to

Yep, you that nailed that 100%.

Boehner is the worst of the lot but his sidekick Cantor
could easily take his place.

You're right on with the Xtians too.
We were lucky to get the upper hand on them and finally
get them under control. (More or less.) They still get
to regularly rape our children.

BAH's comment about

"people whose sole purpose in life is to destroy the
productive work of others"

reminds me of GWB's famous "they hate us for our freedom".

Who buys this stuff and what's wrong with them?

--
Dan Espen

Rod Speed

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Jul 3, 2012, 6:44:41 PM7/3/12

to

Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote
>>>>> Peter Flass wrote
>>>>>> maus wrote

>>>>>>> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
>>>>>>> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
>>>>>>> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
>>>>>>> of that kind, as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.

>>>>>> It's not the believing that's the problem, it's the doing.
>>>>>> Who you worship on (Sun,Sat,Wed.Fri...) isn't that important.
>>>>>> It's what you do on the other 24x7-1 hours that matters.

>>>>> THat's called tolerance. The Christian and Islamic conservatives
>>>>> have none.

>>>> You have none for islamists.

Or 'socialists' either.

>>> I have none for people whose sole purpose in
>>> life is to destroy the productive work of others.

>> But only a tiny subset of Islamists are into anything like that.

>> A MUCH smaller subset than with stupid Xtians, particularly
>> the worst of the Repugs like that fool/arsehole Boehner.

> Yep, you that nailed that 100%.

> Boehner is the worst of the lot but his sidekick
> Cantor could easily take his place.

Gunna be fascinating to see what the voters do about them.

> You're right on with the Xtians too.
> We were lucky to get the upper hand on them and finally
> get them under control. (More or less.) They still get
> to regularly rape our children.

Yeah, just watched a doco on our arseholes last night.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/06/28/3535079.htm
And this is the arseholes that claim to tell us what we should do.

> BAH's comment about
> "people whose sole purpose in life is to destroy the
> productive work of others"
> reminds me of GWB's famous "they hate us for our freedom".

> Who buys this stuff

Basically those with Barb's mindset.

> and what's wrong with them?

Nothing viable between the ears basically.

Andrew Swallow

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Jul 3, 2012, 6:56:12 PM7/3/12

to

Education cuts as sign of social failure - have a look at the coloured
ex-British colonies after the British left. Many became dictatorships
that also shut down their industry and mining.

Andrew Swallow

Dan Espen

unread,

Jul 3, 2012, 10:27:16 PM7/3/12

to

"Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote

>> Who buys this stuff
>
> Basically those with Barb's mindset.
>
>> and what's wrong with them?
>
> Nothing viable between the ears basically.

On the contrary, I'm inclined to believe that Barb
did a reasonably good job at whatever she worked at.
She's got something on the ball, but at times she sure does seem weird.

I'm not conceited enough to believe that she doesn't think the same way
about the people that disagree with her.

--
Dan Espen

Rod Speed

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Jul 3, 2012, 11:35:23 PM7/3/12

to

Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote

>>> Who buys this stuff

>> Basically those with Barb's mindset.

>>> and what's wrong with them?

>> Nothing viable between the ears basically.

> On the contrary,

We'll see...

> I'm inclined to believe that Barb did a
> reasonably good job at whatever she worked at.

But clearly doesn't anymore. She refuses to use
the web at all, runs down to the library to check
anything. You cant get more stupid than that.

She also buys all the utterly mindless lies spewed by fool
like Limbaugh, even if indirectly when respewed by others.

She hasn't got a fucking clue about what most moslems are about.

> She's got something on the ball,

Not politically she hasn't.

> but at times she sure does seem weird.

ALL of the time when politics and islam is involved.

And even with computing with PCs too.

> I'm not conceited enough to believe that she doesn't think
> the same way about the people that disagree with her.

She clearly does. She stupidly keeps believing that I have
only ever been involved in computing even tho I have told
her repeatedly that I was in fact in the development of a
multiuser OS for the PDP9, very similar in concept to what
much later became TSX for the PDP11 and was in fact the
one that came up with the concept in the first place.

She HATES anyone pointing out the worst of her terminal stupiditys.

jmfbahciv

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Jul 4, 2012, 8:36:47 AM7/4/12

to

The irony of this one is that the idiotic EEO is helping with this one.

/BAH

jmfbahciv

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Jul 4, 2012, 8:37:06 AM7/4/12

to

Rod Speed wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote
>>>> Peter Flass wrote
>>>>> maus wrote
>
>>>>>> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
>>>>>> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
>>>>>> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
>>>>>> of that kind, as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.
>
>>>>> It's not the believing that's the problem, it's the doing.
>>>>> Who you worship on (Sun,Sat,Wed.Fri...) isn't that important.
>>>>> It's what you do on the other 24x7-1 hours that matters.
>
>>>> THat's called tolerance. The Christian and Islamic conservatives have
>>>> none.
>
>>> You have none for islamists.
>
>> I have none for people whose sole purpose in
>> life is to destroy the productive work of others.
>
> But only a tiny subset of Islamists are into anything like that.

That subset are the ones who are willing to kill, maim and destroy
infrastructure to achieve their goals. and they're winning so far.

>
> A MUCH smaller subset than with stupid Xtians, particularly
> the worst of the Repugs like that fool/arsehole Boehner.
>

That's why I'm not one of them. Neither group has any
tolerance for differences; that is not productive in any
way. Innovation is stiffled and discovery of new things
is sinful. This holds for both of those groups.

/BAH

jmfbahciv

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Jul 4, 2012, 8:36:52 AM7/4/12

to

Charles Richmond wrote:
> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:PM0004C3E...@aca34216.ipt.aol.com...
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:PM0004C3D...@ac82ea4d.ipt.aol.com...
>>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>> On 7/1/2012 5:55 PM, maus wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
>>>>>> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
>>>>>> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
>>>>>> of that kind, as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not the believing that's the problem, it's the doing. Who you
>>>>> worship on (Sun,Sat,Wed.Fri...) isn't that important. It's what you do
>>>>> on the other 24x7-1 hours that matters.
>>>>>
>>>> THat's called tolerance. The Christian and Islamic conservatives have
>>>> none.
>>>
>>> You have none for islamists.
>>>
>> I have none for people whose sole purpose in life is to destroy
>> the productive work of others.
>>
>
> When you say "destroy the productive work of others"... are you thinking of
> John Boehner and the Republicans??? They are lying, mean-spirited
> obstructionists who just want to get in the way of progress.

Drat. My answer to this post was not meant to be yelling at Charles but
as a vehicle to those other people who claim they understand me but really
don't and have no intention to understand; their brain have been burnt in.;-)

/BAH

jmfbahciv

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Jul 4, 2012, 8:36:56 AM7/4/12

to

Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> In article <PM0004C3E...@aca34216.ipt.aol.com>, See....@aol.com
> (jmfbahciv) writes:
>
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>
>>> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:PM0004C3D...@ac82ea4d.ipt.aol.com...
>>>
>>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/1/2012 5:55 PM, maus wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
>>>>>> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
>>>>>> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
>>>>>> of that kind, as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not the believing that's the problem, it's the doing. Who you
>>>>> worship on (Sun,Sat,Wed.Fri...) isn't that important. It's what
>>>>> you do on the other 24x7-1 hours that matters.
>>>>>
>>>> THat's called tolerance. The Christian and Islamic conservatives
>>>> have none.
>>>
>>> You have none for islamists.
>>
>> I have none for people whose sole purpose in life is to destroy
>> the productive work of others.
>
> Like politicians, career bureaucrats, takeover artists...

Right.

/BAH

jmfbahciv

unread,

Jul 4, 2012, 8:36:54 AM7/4/12

to

Rod Speed wrote:
> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
>
>>>> Who buys this stuff
>
>>> Basically those with Barb's mindset.
>
>>>> and what's wrong with them?
>
>>> Nothing viable between the ears basically.
>
>> On the contrary,
>
> We'll see...
>
>> I'm inclined to believe that Barb did a
>> reasonably good job at whatever she worked at.
>
> But clearly doesn't anymore. She refuses to use
> the web at all, runs down to the library to check
> anything. You cant get more stupid than that.

I don't have money to spend on home access. What don't you
understand about that?

>
> She also buys all the utterly mindless lies spewed by fool
> like Limbaugh, even if indirectly when respewed by others.

I've told you before that I don't hear what they say. Your
hidden assumptions are 100% wrong.

>
> She hasn't got a fucking clue about what most moslems are about.
>

Oh, good grief. This has to do with preservation of today's
trade and technology and not its destruction.

>> She's got something on the ball,
>
> Not politically she hasn't.
>
>> but at times she sure does seem weird.
>
> ALL of the time when politics and islam is involved.

Perhaps you should reexamine your assumptions.

>
> And even with computing with PCs too.
>
>> I'm not conceited enough to believe that she doesn't think
>> the same way about the people that disagree with her.
>
> She clearly does. She stupidly keeps believing that I have
> only ever been involved in computing even tho I have told
> her repeatedly that I was in fact in the development of a
> multiuser OS for the PDP9, very similar in concept to what
> much later became TSX for the PDP11 and was in fact the
> one that came up with the concept in the first place.

You've never told me that. So why do you keep sounding
like a salesman?

>
> She HATES anyone pointing out the worst of her terminal stupiditys.

No, you hate being told you are wrong which you are most of the time.

/BAH

jmfbahciv

unread,

Jul 4, 2012, 8:37:03 AM7/4/12

to

Charles Richmond wrote:
> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:PM0004C3E...@aca34216.ipt.aol.com...
>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
>>> news:PM0004C3D...@ac82ea4d.ipt.aol.com...
>>>> Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>> On 7/1/2012 5:55 PM, maus wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing, among many, I dislike about religions are their demands
>>>>>> that we _believe_ something without proof. Your belief that Iran,
>>>>>> for instance, is likely to attack Israel with nuclear weapons is
>>>>>> of that kind, as is belief that Muslims are intrinsically evil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not the believing that's the problem, it's the doing. Who you
>>>>> worship on (Sun,Sat,Wed.Fri...) isn't that important. It's what you do
>>>>> on the other 24x7-1 hours that matters.
>>>>>
>>>> THat's called tolerance. The Christian and Islamic conservatives have
>>>> none.
>>>
>>> You have none for islamists.
>>>
>> I have none for people whose sole purpose in life is to destroy
>> the productive work of others.
>>
>
> When you say "destroy the productive work of others"... are you thinking of
> John Boehner and the Republicans???

I don't know who that is.

> They are lying, mean-spirited
> obstructionists who just want to get in the way of progress.

The Reps who intend to put females back into chattel are in that
destructive group. Those who are so-called "prolife" (which they
are not; it's an irony I enjoy immensely) are in that group.
those who are fighting to dumb down the entire population (this
includes all the rabid EEO people) are in that group. The common
characteristic of all is intolerance for anything even slightly
different. It's become worse since everything has become a "right"
instead of a privilege which has to be earned. Self-responsibility
for one's welfare, actions, and outcomes is no longer an honorale
trait but one to punish, tax, and ban.

For those couple of fucking idiots, I talk about this stuff because
my goal is to not have the computer biz destroyed. It's what
I've been working on all my life. the commputer biz is key to
future innovations, new science, engineering and any other productive
trade.

NOW DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND?

/BAH

Charles Richmond

unread,

Jul 4, 2012, 11:56:56 AM7/4/12

to

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message

news:PM0004C40...@ac81424f.ipt.aol.com...
>
> [snip...] [snip...]
> [snip...]

>
> For those couple of fucking idiots, I talk about this stuff because
> my goal is to not have the computer biz destroyed. It's what
> I've been working on all my life. the commputer biz is key to
> future innovations, new science, engineering and any other productive
> trade.
>

BAH, here is something we can *definitely* agree upon! I believe the
computer biz *is* key to future innovations, science, and engineering.
Basically, the computer biz is key to the *progress* of civilization, if the
computers are used wisely. Just like anything powerful, the misuse of
computers can be very dangerous. All this cell phone texting and social
media stuff... is melting down the minds of the young folks these days.

Dave Garland

unread,

Jul 4, 2012, 12:40:58 PM7/4/12

to

On 7/1/2012 6:51 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>
> "Dan Espen" <des...@verizon.net> wrote in message

>> They appear to desperately need some enemy to give flight to their
>> paranoid fantasies. They'll make up anything to create a boogie man.
>
> I think its much more to do with 9/11 which came as one hell of a
> surprise to everyone.

Nah, though the scale of it was certainly a surprise. But attacks in
Europe weren't that unusual, though the attackers weren't usually
Muslim (at least in England, Germany, Italy). Our own homegrown
Christian terrorists had blown up the Federal Building in Oklahoma,
and were murdering doctors and blowing up abortion clinics.

Anyone who thought it never would happen was a fool.

Ok, I'll concede that we have some fools living here, though I doubt
that the percentage is that different from those of other countries.

Dave Garland

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Jul 4, 2012, 12:49:51 PM7/4/12

to

On 7/2/2012 1:56 PM, Rod Speed wrote:

> And I don't believe that the Texas Board of Education have any effect
> on the country
> at all except in the sense that they can drive the textbook market to
> some extent.
>

The Texas Board of Education has a disproportionate effect on the
content of textbooks. Texas is a big market, and no publisher wants
to write it off.

And typically teachers teach to the textbook. That's simple, easy,
and local boards of education understand and mandate it. (Typically
our boards of education are elected from the pool of people who aren't
good enough to get elected to the city council or state legislature,
they don't necessarily have any expertise in education.)

Charlie Gibbs

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Jul 4, 2012, 1:06:34 PM7/4/12

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In article <jl86v79vo2lijgbvh...@4ax.com>,

pongb...@cableone.net (D.J.) writes:

> On Tue, 3 Jul 2012 09:49:56 -0500, "Charles Richmond"
> <nume...@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
>> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:PM0004C3E...@aca34216.ipt.aol.com...
>>
>>> Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:PM0004C3D...@ac82ea4d.ipt.aol.com...
>>>>

>>>>> THat's called tolerance. The Christian and Islamic
>>>>> conservatives have none.
>>>>
>>>> You have none for islamists.
>>>
>>> I have none for people whose sole purpose in life is to destroy
>>> the productive work of others.
>>
>> When you say "destroy the productive work of others"... are you
>> thinking of John Boehner and the Republicans??? They are lying,
>> mean-spirited obstructionists who just want to get in the way of
>> progress.
>
> And they are cutting back on education.
>
> Afterall, if the populace is uneducated the politicians stand a
> better chance of fooling everyone all of the time.

There's a twist on that here in Canada. Our government is trying
to push immigration above 300,000 people (1% of our population)
per year. Part of the reason is to combat our selfish tendency
to breed less, but the main emphasis is on bringing in skilled
workers. Why should we waste money on our education system when
we can bring in people who are already educated? Not only does
this keep the native population in blissful ignorance, it also
ensures that the educated people can be sent back where they
came from if they start getting uppity.

There are a few problems, though, mostly in recognizing the
qualifications of immigrants. We have a lot of foreign Ph.Ds
working minimum-wage jobs. What a waste.

Dave Garland

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Jul 4, 2012, 1:05:04 PM7/4/12

to

On 7/2/2012 7:03 AM, Peter Flass wrote:

> God, I *hate* it when I find myself agreeing with Rod. The reason
> that "the West" is currently at the head in technology and culture and
> many, but not all, Islamic states are at the other end is our ability
> to adapt and readily accept innovation instead of seeing it as a
> threat or something evil.
>
> On the other hand, a recent historian has tied it to countries that
> were conquered by jihad, like Persia, rather than countries that
> converted on their own, like Indonesia. The obvious answer is to roll
> back the conquest and stage a do-over ;-)

Doesn't make sense to me. I'd have said that Iran was the most
technologically advanced country in that part of the world, after
Israel. They don't seem to have any problems with accepting
technologic innovation. OTOH, if he's talking about culture, so much
is in the eye of the beholder that it's hard to say.

Dave Garland

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Jul 4, 2012, 1:14:24 PM7/4/12

to

On 7/4/2012 7:37 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:

> Charles Richmond wrote:

>> When you say "destroy the productive work of others"... are you thinking of
>> John Boehner and the Republicans???
>
> I don't know who that is.
>

Speaker (majority leader) of the US House of Representatives. Second
in line of succession for the Presidency (after the President and
Vice-President).

Dave Garland

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Jul 4, 2012, 1:19:25 PM7/4/12

to

On 7/2/2012 5:55 PM, maus wrote:

> Islam is submission to the will of God.

Ah yes. But knowing exactly what He wills is the tricky part, no?

Rod Speed

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Jul 4, 2012, 1:56:18 PM7/4/12

to

jmfbahciv <See....@aol.com> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote

>>>>> Who buys this stuff

>>>> Basically those with Barb's mindset.

>>>>> and what's wrong with them?

>>>> Nothing viable between the ears basically.

>>> On the contrary,

>> We'll see...

>>> I'm inclined to believe that Barb did a
>>> reasonably good job at whatever she worked at.

>> But clearly doesn't anymore. She refuses to use
>> the web at all, runs down to the library to check
>> anything. You cant get more stupid than that.

> I don't have money to spend on home access.

You've already GOT home access. You just refuse to use it for the web.

> What don't you understand about that?

I understand that that is a lie.

>> She also buys all the utterly mindless lies spewed by fool
>> like Limbaugh, even if indirectly when respewed by others.

> I've told you before that I don't hear what they say.

You clearly do when you keep respewing their lies about
'socialism' and islam.

> Your hidden assumptions

There are no hidden assumptions, everyone see you
respewing their lies for themselves and the less
diplomatic of us keep commenting on that.

> are 100% wrong.

And that sort of proclamation in the face of the
evidence is absolutely classic rabid right behaviour.

>> She hasn't got a fucking clue about what most moslems are about.

> Oh, good grief. This has to do with preservation of today's trade and
> technology

Today's trade and technology isnt even affected by islam at all.

If anything some of the technology like face recognition
has been developed to catch the worst of them trying to
get thru our airports etc under a variety of different names.

> and not its destruction.

Islam wont be destroying ANY trade or technology.

Its not even possible for anyone to do that, whatever they want to do.

>>> She's got something on the ball,

>> Not politically she hasn't.

>>> but at times she sure does seem weird.

>> ALL of the time when politics and islam is involved.

> Perhaps you should reexamine your assumptions.

No assumptions involved. We can all see what you have said about islam.

>> And even with computing with PCs too.

>>> I'm not conceited enough to believe that she doesn't think
>>> the same way about the people that disagree with her.

>> She clearly does. She stupidly keeps believing that I have
>> only ever been involved in computing even tho I have told
>> her repeatedly that I was in fact in the development of a
>> multiuser OS for the PDP9, very similar in concept to what
>> much later became TSX for the PDP11 and was in fact the
>> one that came up with the concept in the first place.

> You've never told me that.

I have told you that at least FIVE times, after you have attempted
to insult me by claiming that I was only ever a salesman when I
have rubbed your nose in the basics of what OSs are about.

> So why do you keep sounding like a salesman?

You need to get those ears tested, BAD.

And to stop lying too.

>> She HATES anyone pointing out the worst of her terminal stupiditys.

> No,

Yep, you regularly storm out in a huff.

> you hate being told you are wrong which you are most of the time.

Pathetic. Any 2 year old could leave that for dead.

Rod Speed

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Jul 4, 2012, 2:10:41 PM7/4/12

to

"jmfbahciv" <See....@aol.com> wrote in message

news:PM0004C40...@ac81424f.ipt.aol.com...

Just like with you and moslems eh ?

> It's become worse since everything has become a
> "right" instead of a privilege which has to be earned.
> Self-responsibility for one's welfare, actions, and outcomes
> is no longer an honorale trait but one to punish, tax, and ban.

More respewing of the lies of the ultra right.

> For those couple of fucking idiots, I talk about this stuff
> because my goal is to not have the computer biz destroyed.

There is absolutely no possibility of that the computer
biz will ever be destroyed. What we have in fact seen is
the exact opposite, almost everyone but a few dinosaurs
using them every day, many of them without even knowing
they are doing that even when its just watching some TV
or reading a book.

> It's what I've been working on all my life.

All your WORKING life, maybe.

> the commputer biz is key to future innovations, new
> science, engineering and any other productive trade.

Yes, but there is absolutely no possibility that that will
ever be destroyed by doing OSs the way that gets you
holding your nose and howling, claiming that they arent
doing it right.

What they in fact produce is what EVEN
YOU use yourself when it suits you.

> NOW DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND?

Nothing to understand except the fact that you
are completely off with the fucking fairys on that.