[SPOILERS] U-TE-NA - the Girl, the Prince, the Bride
sephigirl
it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
object.
So - let's talk about her! ^_^
SPOILERS
OF
COURSE,
IT'S
UTENA,
OUR
BRAVE,
YET
SWEET
GIRL!
Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
Was there ever a time you really, really loved her and also really, really
disliked her?
Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
And, is she really as strong as we like to think? Here's a girl who
absolutely gave up after losing to Touga and who stayed as Akio's lover
despite the appearance that she really didn't seem to enjoy it (or was she
drugged as has been discussed before?)
Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one cute,
little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt. And
like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in the
end?
If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
and why?
Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need be.
~Katherine
AFU no Touga - Keeper of his Sexuality
~Mikage's Prince
~~(also)Touga's Prince and Akio's Prince(as needed)
Proud Member, Wakaba Genki Preservation Society
UtenaCode(1.1)U:6 F:To+++Ak++:pBR D:Sa<Na- - -> X:**:a[BR++]
M:f "Poison" "Akio Car" Mikage's Hits, "Toki Ni Ai Wa"
http://www.geocities.com/sephigirl/index.html (Mr. July's shaped up &
ready)
seph...@yahoo.com
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Giovanna Spadaro
"sephigirl" <seph...@inebraskasucks.com> wrote in message
news:40f9c...@corp.newsgroups.com...
> Okay, DQ's right - we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> object.
>
> So - let's talk about her! ^_^
>
Ohh good! I often forget about her. ;_; Please be warned this is gonna come
out bad, my interpretation of Utena is kinda pessimistic and not at all
popular. They say you choose the characters you relate to, and since I
relate to her mirror opposites....
> SPOILERS
> OF
> COURSE,
> IT'S
> UTENA,
> OUR
> BRAVE,
> YET
> SWEET
> GIRL!
>
> Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
Yes. I had zero respect for her for most of the series. This improved a bit
right at the end. Utena, more than any other character in the series, stands
on her moral superiority. Other characters have morals but they're not the
classic standard (Touga: whatever it takes to win) or fall apart so often
that they don't carry an air of superiority about it (Saionji: This is wrong
but I can't help it because I'm a disgusting animal). Because Utena claims
morality to be her policy, I judge her harshly when she falters. Which leads
us toooo...
> Was there ever a time you really, really loved her and also really, really
> disliked her?
Times when her morals falter. The first one that comes to mind is her
hitting and then deciding to duel Mikage. It flies in the face of her moral
system and her dislike of the dueling game as a prick-waving contest. Her
motives in dueling Touga again in the Seitokai arc, and her sleeping with
Akio aren't moments of glory, either.
Times when I really love her? Rare, I just can't relate to her much at all.
I like her very much in the cantarella cookie scene, where her response is
that she poisoned Anthy's tea as well. I'm not sure why I liked her reaction
there. Perhaps because it wasn't the reaction of a prince, but of a friend
instead, or maybe because it seems to betray an understanding about Anthy
that she didn't have before. I really have no idea, I just thought of it
now. ;_;
> Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
> Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
She loved herself, and the prince she emulated that created who she was. So
yeah, pretty much. I think by the end she loved Anthy in a friendship kinda
way, but that didn't really sink in until the very last minute for her.
(I've never really been of the group that thinks they were lesbians in the
series, though I would hardly rule it out if they met up post-apocalypse.)
That said, I would maintain still that much of what binds her to Anthy is
who SHE gets to be when Anthy's around. If circumstance hadn't forced Anthy
to her side, I don't think they would have made friends in a looser social
situation. Utena might have tried to befriend Anthy to help her out, but
Anthy without motive to keep Utena around would have rejected her, and that
woulda been the end of that. Utena definitely didn't love Akio.
> And, is she really as strong as we like to think? Here's a girl who
Nope.
> absolutely gave up after losing to Touga
That was another one of those 'Gio thinks lowly of Utena' moments. I guess I
can understand she felt the weight of her whole drive in life get crushed
under that it turned out her prince was an egotistic cruel asshole, but it
goes to show her personal sense of worth is not where she thinks it is, and
for someone who believes in what they believe so strongly, that just irks
me.
and who stayed as Akio's lover
> despite the appearance that she really didn't seem to enjoy it (or was she
> drugged as has been discussed before?)
Hoo-wah.
I think maybe that whole badness stemmed from Utena feeling obligated to
grow up. After that bout with Touga, her faithfulness to Dios weakened, and
the way she seems to view her relationship with Akio is like it's an
uncomfortable pair of shoes she feels she has to get used to. She isn't
comfortable with what Akio does or how he makes her feel, but she pushes the
situation because 1. she's attracted to him, and 2. she thinks that's how
adults do what they do, so maybe it's time to do that instead of dream about
princes on white horses. Utena thinks she loves him, so she's trying to
create the situation that's created when people are in love. In truth, she's
sexually attracted to him, and at the same time, he's become a
father/brother figure to her. (Why yes, I just said that.) Utena doesn't
seem to have much exposure to adult role models, and probably has never
talked to an adult on such a personal and constant basis as she does with
him in the BRS. Exposure created attachment, and Akio shaped that attachment
into lust. (Left to continue as they had in the BRS, she would have come to
think of him as a big brother and suppressed any sexual attraction that
might have started before Akio began force feeding it to her.)
I don't blame her for thinking she was in love with Akio. That's a common
mistake for women to make, especially when they're so young and can't figure
out how they feel. What irks me is that she KNOWS she feels like she's
betraying Anthy's trust by sleeping with him, and she does it anyway. I
guess that moral code she prides herself on so much was on vacation.
> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one
cute,
> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt. And
> like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
I think I covered this already. ;_; (I'm answering as I read the post...)
Utena is someone who hasn't, at the time of the series, earned her air of
moral superiority. She does correct this by the end though, and in that way,
she grew up.
> Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
> word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
HOLY CYNICAL BITCH ANSWER: I'm tempted to argue that she's friends with
Wakaba because she pities Wakaba's plainness or whatever and her friendship
lets Wakaba shine. (Subconscious motive.)
But that's really bitchy and I'm not even sure I buy it. I go with answer A.
She's a good friend, but Anthy tempted her with something she just can't say
no to. Wakaba takes a back seat to Utena's central compulsion to be a
prince, and while she does manage to fill that role with Wakaba (her being a
prince to Wakaba is how she dueled in the first place), Anthy's a major
upgrade in that arena. Utena's need to protect people puts a massive
bullseye right on Anthy.
> She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
> memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in
the
> end?
Which is why he graduated from that duel and she didn't. ^_^
I think, at the very end (and by very end I'm talking last half of episode
39 end) she realizes she's been standing on an illusion when she could be
standing on her own two feet. The show introduces this earlier, but I don't
think it's until she stands up and rejects the illusion telling her to give
up that it really sinks in.
>
> If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
> Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> and why?
Saionji! (hehe I made a joke)
I guess the obvious answer is Anthy, but really, I don't think they're
soulmates, and they're not going to get along as well as they think on the
outside unless Anthy, in a couple years time, drops at least half of the
personality traits she formed over centuries. Her hostility? Yeah, she'll
lose that. But I don't think she'll shed her passive aggressiveness, and it
will ALWAYS clash with Utena, especially now that she knows about it.
They'll be great friends, no doubt, but not the OMG HAPPY HAPPY one tends to
expect will be natural once Ohtori's in the past...
>
> Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
> that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need
be.
>
I'll just repeat a question I pose to myself earlier for the butchering
block: What does everyone think about this?
Anthy: Say, Utena-sama. Have you heard of Cantarella?
Utena: "Cantarella"? What's that?
Anthy: It's the name of a deadly poison that the Italian Borgia family used
in the past.
Utena: Really...
Anthy: How do you like those cookies? I baked them.
Utena: What a coincidence.
Utena: That tea is poisoned too.
Anthy: Really?
Anthy: It's quite delicious.
Utena: So are these cookies.
Her reaction is...strange, I think. For her. What's the deal? Is she just
pissed at Anthy over Akio? That seems way too simple for SKU, what's going
on underneath that? Is it sarcasm? Is she admitting she's not as great a
prince as she thought she was? I haven't thought about this scene much, and
in this case don't entirely trust my interpretation, since Utena's someone I
have a little bit of a hard time with. She's not any more complicated than
anyone else, but she just doesn't come naturally to me.
Oh dear lord. This is long. I'm not gonna reread it, I need to go work on
EM. Sorry if it sucks or is full of typos.
--
Giovanna Spadaro
http://ohtori.nu
UtenaCode(1.1) U:! F:Ak+++>Sa+++>:OA D:Ut--> X:***:a++++ M:f"Internal Clock,
Municipal Orrery"
Scortia
>Okay, DQ's right - we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
>it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
>object.
>
>So - let's talk about her! ^_^
>
>SPOILERS
>OF
>COURSE,
>IT'S
>UTENA,
>OUR
>BRAVE,
>YET
>SWEET
>GIRL!
>
>Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
>
>
Not so much... I've been pretty middle-of-the-road with her because from
the beginning to the end she had admirable nobility but she also is a
bit judgemental and deluded.
>Was there ever a time you really, really loved her and also really, really
>disliked her?
>
>
Ummm not so much. Utena to me is the generic lead character in an RPG.
I somewhat disliked her when she confronted Mikage because she was
becoming violent instead of dealing with her own issues. I guess I
liked her for staying ever-noble in the end...
>Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
>Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
>
>
I think she could love Touga in a different situation... but it's hard
to tell who is "real" and who isn't in Ohtori. I think they'd have a
good relationship given they both have ideals.... though both became
skewed over time and clashed.
>And, is she really as strong as we like to think? Here's a girl who
>absolutely gave up after losing to Touga and who stayed as Akio's lover
>despite the appearance that she really didn't seem to enjoy it (or was she
>drugged as has been discussed before?)
>
>
I never thought of her as so much strong but... um... not as effected by
Ohtori as others. And that she, unlike most others, had an opposite
memory. Most of them had good memories and then a bad present. (Miki
with his sister playing piano and then they are totally apart in school
.... Saionji doesn't feel below young Touga and then he does nothing but
dwell on this inadequacy in the show) ... Utena though has a BAD memory
of dead family that was uplifted by Dios with the promise that he would
return to her and a promise from her to be noble and save lives. I
think this is what makes her so different and supposedly "strong".. but
when real situations like lusting for Akio kick in and Touga they show
just how fragile she is. Her strength is on a thin thread.
>Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one cute,
>little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
>Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt. And
>like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
>Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
>word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
>
>
I always hated that... that may be another time I disliked her. I think
it was just more of Ohtori's magic. She was being pulled to the "dark
side" so-to-speak. ;p It's funny that she was more pulled in by Akio
than her own desires to save Anthy.
>She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
>memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in the
>end?
>
>
Probably when she realized she couldn't be a prince. It's a shame she
didn't realize earlier.
>If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
>Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
>and why?
>
>
Ummm I'll just say Touga because he's canon and the whole
princely-attitude thing. I'm not huge on Utena/Anthy at all... I just
think of Utena as Anthy's catalyst... despite how much lesbian luge we
may have in the movie.
>Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
>that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need be.
>
>
>
I don't have anything... Utena is a huge subject of debate for me. ^_^
--
-Scortia
Kevin Trainor
> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> object.
>
> So - let's talk about her! ^_^
>
> SPOILERS
> OF
> COURSE,
> IT'S
> UTENA,
> OUR
> BRAVE,
> YET
> SWEET
> GIRL!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
>
> Was there ever a time you really, really loved her and also really, really
> disliked her?
>
Both during the Black Rose Arc. I loved her for refusing to listen to Anthy
during her duel with Wakaba, and subduing Wakaba without drawing her sword; I
hated her for failing to see that she and Mikage did in fact have more in
common than Utena wanted to admit.
> Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by Dios"
kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
> And, is she really as strong as we like to think? Here's a girl who
absolutely gave up after losing to Touga and who stayed as Akio's lover
> despite the appearance that she really didn't seem to enjoy it (or was she
drugged as has been discussed before?)
> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one cute,
little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt. And
like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
>
Which slips from time to time as she gets stressed out and falls prey to the
failings flesh is heir to.
> Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
> word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
>
It's not like she abandoned Wakaba, they just drifted apart as Utena spent more
time with Anthy.
> She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
> memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in the
> end?
>
> If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
> Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> and why?
>
Oh, boy. I think she actually has more in common with Mikage than any of the
others, but she never has the chance to realize this since they're pitted
against each other. I don't think Utena's soulmate is at Ohtori.
> Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
> that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need be.
>
She's a complicated character with a lot going on between her ears. I can't
relate to the movie and manga Utena, so I can't really talk about them.
Kevin the Redneck Otaku,
AFU no Groundskeeper #2
Keeper of Juri's Rarely Seen Femme Side
UtenaCode [2.0]: U:6- F:Ju++>Shi+>:pBR D:Hi-->Na- X:***:a: 1-39++,[AM]
Mf: "Truth", "Virtual Star Embryology" d: "A Distillation Time"
"Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you." - Souji Mikage
sephigirl
> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> object.
>
> So - let's talk about her! ^_^
By the way - I'm really liking what people are saying - this is great! I'm
so happy when we discuss sku! *does happy dance, gets beaten to a pulp by
Juri for being too genki*
>
> SPOILERS
> OF
> COURSE,
> IT'S
> UTENA,
> OUR
> BRAVE,
> YET
> SWEET
> GIRL!
>
> Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
Like others - I started out really liking her - finding her clueless and
hard headed but, by the end, I thought she, too, had become just as cynical
as Touga and all the others that had been corrupted by Akio & Anthy.
> Was there ever a time you really, really loved her and also really, really
> disliked her?
I really, really loved her when she stood up to Saio for Wakaba. She had no
clue what she was getting into, but dammit - she was going to protect her
friend. I really, really disliked her for her relationship with Akio -
she's well aware of his fiancee yet she doesn't stop it. And for her
physical abuse of Mikage. He was telling her the truth and she snapped - it
was interesting to see her do this - she's very easy going and then bam! -
she strikes - she's like Saio in some ways. But, she had no reason to hurt
Mikage. Challenge him for corrupting the students - yes.
> Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
> Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
I think Utena's too . . . young to understand what love is. She may have
been falling honestly in love with Touga but he couldn't see it because of
his games. She wants to be something she can't - a Prince. She lost her
parents and I think that made her feel she was helpless so she grabbed onto
something that would give her power - she'd save others from pain.
> And, is she really as strong as we like to think? Here's a girl who
> absolutely gave up after losing to Touga and who stayed as Akio's lover
> despite the appearance that she really didn't seem to enjoy it (or was she
> drugged as has been discussed before?)
See above - I don't think she's very strong at all. She's strong-willed to
a point but she's so easily influenced that she'll never be a leader.
> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one
cute,
> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt. And
> like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
> Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
> word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
As my question leads - she was victimized by Anthy. Wakaba was always the
catalyst for Utena but she threw her genki little friend over when she no
longer served a purpose. Anthy was more needy and gave off "I need
protection" vibes - Utena must always be a Prince or is that a martyr?
> She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
> memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in
the
> end?
>
I think she still refused, even to the end, to believe the truth. She was
damned determined to prove Akio wrong. So, until she realizes the full
truth, she'll never be free.
> If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
> Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> and why?
Touga. He & Utena are idealists and dreamers. He's actually more grounded
in some ways. I think he'd love her for who she was. If she ever changed
for him, I don't know. Touga relishes the challenge and he needs to care
for and protect someone as well.
Maybe Saionji - he's hot-tempered and passionate and dumb - just like she
is. They both eventually cool down and can work out things, so this would
be a unique relationship, but happy if they truly loved each other. I think
they're soul mates but maybe not heart souls.
>
> Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
> that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need
be.
>
>
Movie Utena irked me to no end! Make up your mind girl! Tho' she gets
Touga, dammit!
Manga Utena - I liked her; she was more of a teenage girl, plus she gets
Touga! lucky!
^__^
Death Quaker
My god!!! Is the world coming to an end??? ~_^
> we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> object.
Is there anything sacred at AFU?
> So - let's talk about her! ^_^
WOOT!
> SPOILERS
> OF
> COURSE,
> IT'S
> UTENA,
> OUR
> BRAVE,
> YET
> SWEET
> GIRL!
>
> Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
My opinion did change but overall I always liked her... which is a
rare thing for me to like a lead/title character in an anime (or any
media). She's up there with Xena, Wonder Woman, the Bionic Woman, Lina
Inverse, and the Doctor (as far as being among the few lead characters
I like). I'm usually a much more supporting character/underdog kind of
girl.
I like her because of a lot of things on a lot of levels...
academically, I focused on feminism and gender construction.... I
started watching Utena while working on a term paper about Rosalind in
"As You Like It"--her challenging gender roles and trying to figure
out if she has a sexual identity/what it is/how it relates to social
construction of gender, etc is very interesting to me. Personally of
course, I like her 'cause she's good hearted and her striving to be
ever-noble and strong, and I usually appreciate her intuition. I also
relate to her too, being a loyal (and in my youth overprotective),
sometimes painfully oblivious, and generally optimistic tomboy.
> Was there ever a time you really, really loved her and also really, really
> disliked her?
Loved: when she won the duel "against" Wakaba without ever drawing the
Sword of Dios (and despite Anthy being convinced she was going to get
her butt kicked). It beautifully showed Utena's faith in her
friendship and in the purity of Wakaba's heart.
Disliked: Can't say I ever *hated* her, but I was pretty pissed off
when she started to find out about Akio and Anthy's "relationship" and
got *mad at Anthy* for it. Utena was usually a good reader of hearts
and intentions, and she had to know something was wrong there... she
should have been better than to let jealousy get the better of her.
BUT THEN... I think that was the whole point. She wasn't perfect, and
she let her standards falter, and we saw the darker side of her
humanity there.
And honestly, I have to say, I like her better flawed than if she had
been "the perfect hero." So it's a fleeting, dislike, really, because
her flaws lead her toward growth.
> Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
> Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
In the universal sense, I think she loved Wakaba, although so sadly
they grew apart over time. She loved Anthy, in whatever sense you want
to believe, or she would have seen the stabbing as the final betrayal
and just left her to her fate right there.
She certainly acted in many cases to "rescue" people because she felt
that was she was supposed to do in order to accomplish becoming a
prince (a goal that may not have had an end in sight... could she ever
judge when she had become strong and noble enough?), but she also I
think had genuine compassion which was a source of her "nobility," as
"Dios" recognized it. Contrast this to Touga's concept of "chivalry,"
which at least in the beginning caused him not to treat women "nobly"
because he felt that's what they deserved, but because that's what he
felt he was supposed to do; for him it was a superficial code of
honor--make the woman believe with pretty words she's the honored
damsel, but then ignore her phone calls because he's too busy banging
someone else (in fairness, Touga loses some of this superficiality
over time, at least in some respects to Utena).
> And, is she really as strong as we like to think?
I'm not sure how strong we think she is. I think she's as strong as a
14 year old girl can be, and amazingly determined. She has her flaws
and her weak points just like anyone else.
Here's another question--Does _she_ think she's as strong as we like
to think?
> Here's a girl who absolutely gave up after losing to Touga
Did she? If she'd *absolutely* given up, would Wakaba's pep talk have
worked? You have to remember, a lot of Utena's nice comfortable
illusions were shattered very quickly-- 1) She was getting to believe
Touga was her Prince, and his betrayal/manipulation of that shocked
her horribly, and 2) She really believed Anthy had free will--and may
have been right, but Anthy at least demonstrated *to her* that Utena's
concept of the "Rose Bride" was flawed. She found herself questioning
the idea of the Prince, something she's lived by since the age of 7,
questioning her sense of loyalty and her trust of others, and she
realizes that someone she'd come to really care for as a friend she
actually doesn't know at all. That's some really tough stuff to deal
with, and I can't imagine how "strong" you'd have to be to just let
something like that slide off your back.
I think Utena knew she'd lost something and wanted to get it back--she
just needed a slap (literally!) to get going. To me it's the fact that
she *did* pick herself back up and get fighting again that is evidence
of her great strength.
> and who stayed as Akio's lover
> despite the appearance that she really didn't seem to enjoy it (or was she
> drugged as has been discussed before?)
I think it was Gio who made some good observations here about Utena's
concept of what it meant to be "grown up" and trying to fulfill those
expectations.
Chiho Saito talked about a duality she saw in Utena--part of her
wanting to be the strong one, the protector, the Prince, and part of
her who just wanted to be cared for and protected, the Princess. That
duality is in all of us (as Saito observes)--Akio tries to manipulate
that "princess," for lack of a better term, part of her, and I think
that part of her takes comfort in the idea of letting go and just
being taken care of by another person, and she decides to think that
Akio can do that for her (her confusion and goals overriding what is
usually a good judge of character).
But Utena *isn't* just a princess, is she? She's got goals and plans
of her own, and enough of a sense of independence not to completely
turn to that single side of her personality. She certainly abandons
the idea of Akio as a real possible partner as soon as she sees him as
her final challenger (oddly, something she seems to have expected)--by
the final battle, her illusions about him are gone.
Utena falters earlier in the story by trying too hard to be a prince,
and then swings sharply the other way when the princess-needs catch up
and she falls under Akio's charms. Ultimately, though, I think she
represents a balance of forces. In the end, she's not fighting to
"save" Anthy because she's supposed to, but because she wants to,
because she's her *friend*, not just a damsel in distress. She
couldn't be Anthy's Prince because that would require Utena to just
play the protector role, and I think ultimately she needed Anthy to
care for her as much as she needed to care for Anthy (and Anthy
recognizes this, as that's why she decides that it's "my turn to come
to you").
> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one cute,
> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt. And
> like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
Could be. I don't know if she saw this, although I imagine many of the
council saw themselves in her, Jury especially (which is why I think
Jury actually gets so rough with her at first).
> Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
> word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
Not sure what you mean by "stay." Wakaba certainly does get pushed
into the background, although through the whole series we still see
her eating lunch with Wakaba and so forth. Wakaba's coming by to study
implied to me that they had agreed to help each other prepare for
finals... if they'd completely gone their separate ways, I'm not sure
Wakaba would have bothered.
Utena herself lamented on a few occasions that the obligation to duel
prevented her from living a normal life, and both her friendships and
scholarship failed at times because of it. You realize, it seems like
just every few *days* someone comes by challenging Utena to duel. It
takes up a lot of her time--and it's something she feels she can't
tell Wakaba about, for her protection if nothing else.
Utena probably is pretty torn by the situation. She cares about Wakaba
but can't abandon Anthy--and Anthy really does need Utena; no one else
is interested in Anthy in actually trying to help her. The girl
constantly feels the pain of being pierced by a million swords, for
crissakes--not that Utena realizes that till the end, but she knows if
she leaves Anthy, she may be helping consign someone to a horrible
fate. (That Anthy might have brought that fate upon herself does not
bother compassionate, optimistic Utena.) Wakaba on the other hand,
while a valuable friend, doesn't have any major *problems*--and note
that the few times Utena becomes aware of Wakaba having problems,
Utena does her damndest immediately to help (even if it really doesn't
help, as in the case of poor Tatsuya). So how do you balance trying to
really help someone in need and make sure you still have time for the
rest of your friends--and maybe a little bit for yourself left over?
It's happened to me, having one friend with some serious emotional
needs and pouring all my time into that one person because I didn't
want to abandon them--and at the same time ending up "abandoning"
someone else. Dealing with such a situation is incredibly difficult.
I always thought, though, that if Utena, whereever she is, were to
reconnect with someone at Ohtori, it would be to Wakaba. I don't
think, at the very least, Utena ever *intentionally* left Wakaba
behind, even if she was dragged away or distracted by other
situations.
> She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
> memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in the
> end?
That's a tough question... I think partly, she finally remembered the
"real" memory behind the fairy-tale memory she'd turned the
prince-memory into--and in doing so, she could resolve what really
happened.
I'm tempted to go on, but I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts
here, and I've already been typing for over 25 minutes! So moving
on...
> If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
> Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> and why?
Gawd, I don't know. I certainly think Utena and Anthy pair off very
well, in whatever sense you want to take it--Anthy's cynicism and
knowledge of the darkness of the world and of herself balance well
with Utena's faith in everyone's inner goodness. Anthy showed Utena
there's some horrible things in the world, and Utena showed Anthy that
it's still a world worth fighting for. The only way to stop the
darkness is to fight it, not succumb. Together they could do that very
well--and thus a revolution is born.
> Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
> that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need be.
Manga Utena strikes me for being at once much more obviously a
teenager and yet also being much more confident in herself and
clear-headed about the people around her. She's not *quite* (quite,
mind you) as oblivious as TV Utena, and seems to see past Touga's and
Akio's lines faster than her series counterpart (but the manga is a
shorter and less complex story). She also seems much more confident in
her role as the prince/Anthy's friend/protector... "Don't you know
what my name means? It means 'calyx,' which protects the flower until
it's ready to bloom..." (or some such... I'm recalling this from
memory).
I also thought Manga Utena's crush on Miki (and vice versa) was cute.
^^
Movie Utena is in the opposite direction, being less sure of herself,
less optimistic, and has no idea what role she is to play in the
world. She's a somber, introspective Utena--but she almost makes me
think that this is what Utena--any version of Utena--is really like
inside her head, behind the bravado and the prince-play. On the other
hand, she comes to clarity about her memories and what she wants out
of the world very quickly (but again, condensed story). She knows
precisely what she--and Anthy--needs to get going--to get out of the
world of idealized memory and back into the real world and accept
growing up. I really like in the movie how Utena and Anthy are much
more *partners* in what they need to accomplish, showing how they need
each other to revolutionize their own personal worlds.
My four or five cents.
=====
Death Quaker!
Shiori's Prince
http://www.deathquaker.org
Jiras Corrino
>From: "sephigirl" seph...@inebraskasucks.com
>Date: Sat, Jul 17, 2004 8:19 PM
>Message-id: <40f9c...@corp.newsgroups.com>
>
>Okay, DQ's right - we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
>it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
>object.
That's a good way of putting it.
>So - let's talk about her! ^_^
>
>SPOILERS
>OF
>COURSE,
>IT'S
>UTENA,
>OUR
>BRAVE,
>YET
>SWEET
>GIRL!
>
>Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
>Was there ever a time you really, really loved her and also really, really
>disliked her?
I always liked her. To me she always embodied the honest-to-goodness hero, a
sort of anti-anti-hero. She's like Superman or Spider-Man, she helps people
because they need help, and she loves doing it. She's never petty or
mean-spirited, she doesn't so much as play a practical joke. How can you
dislike her? ^^
>Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
>Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
She loves everybody, but the amount of love she feels is greater in direct
proportion to the amount of love they need. And let us say that Anthy, lynched
by a bloodthirsty mob, condemned to eternal torment, whored out by her brother
and denied a free will of her own, is probably in need of more TLC than anybody
else on the Ohtori campus. If Utena truly loved anyone, she loved her.
>And, is she really as strong as we like to think? Here's a girl who
>absolutely gave up after losing to Touga
I think that losing to Touga struck at the core of her being. She sees herself
as being someone others can rely upon, but if she loses, then she lets down the
people who rely on her. So for her it's not just defeat, she also feels guilty
about it.
>and who stayed as Akio's lover
>despite the appearance that she really didn't seem to enjoy it (or was she
>drugged as has been discussed before?)
Say, I never noticed that before, you're right! She was probably too naive to
know that what she was doing was wrong on a conscious level, so she didn't
stop, but I think that she instinctually knew that something was wrong on a
subconscious level, and it pretty much kept her from enjoying the sex. Plus,
having sex doesn't help anybody (despite what Akio might say) so she's not
doing something she really enjoys.
>Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one cute,
>little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
>Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt. And
>like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
This sounds good to me. She is complete while they are incomplete, and that is
why she wins.
>Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
>word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
I don't think it's a question of manipulation or fickleness, it's just that
Utena has a need to help people, and the more people need help, the more
attention she pays to them. Now, whatever else you may say about Anthy, she has
a lot of problems, about a million to be precise, so Utena is drawn to her like
iron to lodestone. Wakaba's a sweet girl, but she isn't living in eternal
torment, and she doesn't need Utena to stand on her own two feet. Maybe it was
Utena who could have used a little more support from Wakaba!
>She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
>memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in
>the
>end?
I can't say for sure, I'd have to watch it again. But then, it's less important
that Utena realize this than Anthy does.
>If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
>Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
>and why?
I'm not sure... I think Kozue could have become great friends with her, if only
they had gotten to know each other better.
>Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
>that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need
>be.
Yeah, let's insight the HELL out of her! ^,^|/
Jiras Corrino aka Olo Moss of Lake-by-Downs
afu no Chuchu
afu no Mikage's Elevator
Proud Member, Wakaba Genki Preservation Society!
Pro-Shiorist and PROUD!
Yasha
> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> object.
>
> So - let's talk about her! ^_^
>
> SPOILERS
> OF
> COURSE,
> IT'S
> UTENA,
> OUR
> BRAVE,
> YET
> SWEET
> GIRL!
>
> Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
To be honest, I kind of admired her all along. In the beginning, it wasn't
like she really lived up to her ideals, but at least she _had_ them and at
least she tried to reach them even if she did get confused and fall short.
The end of the series only justified me in admiring her. However, she's
always been too innocent (stupid) for me to really like.
> Was there ever a time you really, really loved her and also really, really
> disliked her?
Dislike: Every single time she utterly fails to figure out what's going on
around her and how she's being manipulated.
Love: Every time she responds to Anthy's cruelty or self-hatred with
kindness. Yes, some of those fall under the dislike category too.
> Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
> Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
I think she loved Anthy. I don't think she loved Anthy in a sexually-driven
or romantic way, but she did love her. That kind of steadfast, devoted
friendship and willingness to trust absolutely are very rare.
> And, is she really as strong as we like to think? Here's a girl who
> absolutely gave up after losing to Touga and who stayed as Akio's lover
> despite the appearance that she really didn't seem to enjoy it (or was she
> drugged as has been discussed before?)
It depends on how strong you think she is. From my point of view, when
compared to a normal, average person, Utena is very strong. The defeat by
Touga shouldn't be taken lightly, as in her mind it was her Prince, the
center of her ideals, the replacement for her mother and father, the person
who literally and figuratively made her who she is, crushing her entire
world-view by turning out to be cruel and cold. You live through that, and
then tell me it's easy.
As for Akio, she thought she loved him. Any high-school girl with a crush
will do things she hates herself for afterwards when she thinks her heart is
on the line.
> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one
cute,
> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt. And
> like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
I never thought of her like that, and I don't really see it. She's herself.
> Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
> word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
I never thought her friendship with Wakaba grew much less because of Anthy.
You're led to believe they spend less time together, but it never seemed to
be a problem with either of them (unless I've forgotten something major), so
I'd assume that despite Wakaba's hidden hatred of Anthy, her friendship with
Utena still held, though not quite as chokingly.
> She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
> memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in
the
> end?
In the end of what? The end of the series? The end of the arc? Well, I guess
it doesn't matter either way, I can answer both. Arc: HELL no. She's so
stupid. Series: I really don't think she was protecting her precious memory
anymore, so why would she realize something that wasn't true?
> If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
> Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> and why?
No one. Anthy and Utena are not soul mates, though if they met up after the
series was over, they would still love each other. Touga and Utena would
drive each other nuts-- Touga would expect her to fall in line and adore him
like all the other girls, and she'd end up hating him for the callous way he
treated people. He's not about to change for anyone, he proved that when he
was 'in love' with her and trying to rescue her and he still told her that
if he won, she had to be his girlfriend whether she wanted to or not.
Saionji? HELL no. There would be dismembered body parts all over the place.
Any other guy I remember is either too young or too cruel or too dead for
her. And Juri would eventually depress her with all that sobbing in the
shower when she was unhappy.
Anthy's really the best choice, but she's not a soul mate.
> Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
> that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need
be.
I'm too tired for questions or insights ;_;
Death Quaker
> "sephigirl" <seph...@inebraskasucks.com> wrote in message
> news:40f9c...@corp.newsgroups.com...
> > Okay, DQ's right - we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> > it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> > object.
> >
> > So - let's talk about her! ^_^
> >
> > SPOILERS
> > OF
> > COURSE,
> > IT'S
> > UTENA,
> > OUR
> > BRAVE,
> > YET
> > SWEET
> > GIRL!
> >
> > Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
>
> To be honest, I kind of admired her all along. In the beginning, it wasn't
> like she really lived up to her ideals, but at least she _had_ them and at
> least she tried to reach them even if she did get confused and fall short.
> The end of the series only justified me in admiring her. However, she's
> always been too innocent (stupid) for me to really like.
You know, I think in all my rambling in my own reply to these
questions, I really didn't touch upon Utena's cluelessness--which IMHO
is really neither innocence nor stupidity (in the abstract sense of
intelligence level)--she is so bent upon her own quest that she really
doesn't stop and *think* about what other people might really feel.
She does have that one moment of clarity late in the series, where she
tearfully admits to Anthy she never truly considered Anthy's situation
and feelings because of her own desires, but yes, Utena is
frustratingly oblivious at times. Jury especially seemed to observe
and resent this Utena; many other characters were able to manipulate
her because of it. It's probably her greatest flaw.
<snip many good, concise insights>
> > Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
> > word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
>
> I never thought her friendship with Wakaba grew much less because of Anthy.
> You're led to believe they spend less time together, but it never seemed to
> be a problem with either of them (unless I've forgotten something major), so
> I'd assume that despite Wakaba's hidden hatred of Anthy, her friendship with
> Utena still held, though not quite as chokingly.
Here's a thought... we talk of Utena drifting (or pushing) Wakaba
away, but did Wakaba begin to separate herself because of her (hidden)
dislike of Anthy? Did she think (even subconsciously) she could not be
friends with Utena if Utena was also friends with Anthy?
Just an idea, not one I necessarily believe.
<snip>
> > If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
> > Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> > and why?
>
> No one. Anthy and Utena are not soul mates, though if they met up after the
> series was over, they would still love each other. Touga and Utena would
> drive each other nuts-- Touga would expect her to fall in line and adore him
> like all the other girls, and she'd end up hating him for the callous way he
> treated people. He's not about to change for anyone, he proved that when he
> was 'in love' with her and trying to rescue her and he still told her that
> if he won, she had to be his girlfriend whether she wanted to or not.
> Saionji? HELL no. There would be dismembered body parts all over the place.
> Any other guy I remember is either too young or too cruel or too dead for
> her.
Hey, what about Tatsuya? ^^ He's Utena's age and neither cruel nor
dead. And while a sweetie, he also is more assertive than the other
"nice boy," Miki.
I don't really *seriously* think it would work, but it would be cute
to see a story where Tatsuya's fake interest in Utena turned into a
real one, and once seeing Wakaba wasn't interested, if Utena came to
like him. ^^
I don't know if this is a vote for a soul mate, but as far as nice
boys go, I also loved the character Kaido from the manga. Underneath
his shy nerdy Miki-like demeanor was a bit of a firecracker
personality (punching Aoi for "dishonoring" Utena and Aunt Yurika
*LOL*, and yelling at Utena to get real when she was getting too
wifty-eyed), and he was so loyal, he helped the girl he loved leave to
find the place where she thought she could realize her dream, even
then it meant leaving him behind.... *sighs* what a guy. He's
nonexistent in the series, but what little we see of him in the manga,
he was a good guy and a good friend to Utena and would be a good
addition to her (in any version of Utena) life in some way.
And if Utena doesn't want him, _I'll_ take him and marry him (when
he's old enough).
Jury and Shiori: Hey, we thought you liked _us_...
DQ: I do. But in my happy silly idealistic dreamworld, you two will
end up pairing off with each other. So I'm still marrying Kaido. *hugs
him tight*
Kaido: Erg...
> And Juri would eventually depress her with all that sobbing in the
> shower when she was unhappy.
LOL. Poor Jury. Jury and Utena could get a thing going for awhile, as
they do have some stuff in common (but are different enough to
compliment) but I doubt it would last; they'd each drive each other
crazy at times. Definitely not soulmates.
<snip>
Death Quaker
> news:40f9c...@corp.newsgroups.com...
> > Okay, DQ's right - we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> > it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> > object.
> >
> > So - let's talk about her! ^_^
> >
> > SPOILERS
> > OF
> > COURSE,
> > IT'S
> > UTENA,
> > OUR
> > BRAVE,
> > YET
> > SWEET
> > GIRL!
> >
> > Opinions? Did they change from the first episode to the final?
>
> To be honest, I kind of admired her all along. In the beginning, it wasn't
> like she really lived up to her ideals, but at least she _had_ them and at
> least she tried to reach them even if she did get confused and fall short.
> The end of the series only justified me in admiring her. However, she's
> always been too innocent (stupid) for me to really like.
You know, I think in all my rambling in my own reply to these
questions, I really didn't touch upon Utena's cluelessness--which IMHO
is really neither innocence nor stupidity (in the abstract sense of
intelligence level)--she is so bent upon her own quest that she really
doesn't stop and *think* about what other people might really feel.
She does have that one moment of clarity late in the series, where she
tearfully admits to Anthy she never truly considered Anthy's situation
and feelings because of her own desires, but yes, Utena is
frustratingly oblivious at times. Jury especially seemed to observe
and resent this Utena; many other characters were able to manipulate
her because of it. It's probably her greatest flaw.
<snip many good, concise insights>
> > Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a better
> > word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
>
> I never thought her friendship with Wakaba grew much less because of Anthy.
> You're led to believe they spend less time together, but it never seemed to
> be a problem with either of them (unless I've forgotten something major), so
> I'd assume that despite Wakaba's hidden hatred of Anthy, her friendship with
> Utena still held, though not quite as chokingly.
Here's a thought... we talk of Utena drifting (or pushing) Wakaba
away, but did Wakaba begin to separate herself because of her (hidden)
dislike of Anthy? Did she think (even subconsciously) she could not be
friends with Utena if Utena was also friends with Anthy?
Just an idea, not one I necessarily believe.
<snip>
> > If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
> > Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> > and why?
>
> No one. Anthy and Utena are not soul mates, though if they met up after the
> series was over, they would still love each other. Touga and Utena would
> drive each other nuts-- Touga would expect her to fall in line and adore him
> like all the other girls, and she'd end up hating him for the callous way he
> treated people. He's not about to change for anyone, he proved that when he
> was 'in love' with her and trying to rescue her and he still told her that
> if he won, she had to be his girlfriend whether she wanted to or not.
> Saionji? HELL no. There would be dismembered body parts all over the place.
> Any other guy I remember is either too young or too cruel or too dead for
> her.
Hey, what about Tatsuya? ^^ He's Utena's age and neither cruel nor
> And Juri would eventually depress her with all that sobbing in the
> shower when she was unhappy.
LOL. Poor Jury. Jury and Utena could get a thing going for awhile, as
Death Quaker
<big snip of much interesting analysis>
> > If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
> > Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> > and why?
>
> Saionji! (hehe I made a joke)
> I guess the obvious answer is Anthy, but really, I don't think they're
> soulmates, and they're not going to get along as well as they think on the
> outside unless Anthy, in a couple years time, drops at least half of the
> personality traits she formed over centuries. Her hostility? Yeah, she'll
> lose that. But I don't think she'll shed her passive aggressiveness, and it
> will ALWAYS clash with Utena, especially now that she knows about it.
> They'll be great friends, no doubt, but not the OMG HAPPY HAPPY one tends to
> expect will be natural once Ohtori's in the past...
I've stated my own reasons, in my usual half-stream-of-consciousness
babble, of why I think Utena and Anthy might be a good pair... but I
also do think you're right, their reunion, at least at first, is not
just going to be "Oh, yay, Anthy! It's so wonderful to see you!" Nor
will Anthy expect it to be, the pessimist that she is. Utena's gonna
have some serious issues left over from what happened there, and she
may first see Anthy showing up as a call to return to a past she may
just want to leave behind.... Anthy's stubborn enough to force Utena
to let her stick around though, and deal with whatever issues are
there.
It is really a big question--and I think we've touched on it in the
past (I vaguely remember discussing this here about a year or year and
a half ago) about what Utena and Anthy "rejoining" (as friends,
lovers, enemies, whatever) would truly mean, and whether it would
really be a good thing. I'll have to try and see if I can find it if I
decide to take the time to go google-spelunking.
> > Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally open
> > that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need
> be.
> >
>
> I'll just repeat a question I pose to myself earlier for the butchering
> block: What does everyone think about this?
>
> Anthy: Say, Utena-sama. Have you heard of Cantarella?
> Utena: "Cantarella"? What's that?
> Anthy: It's the name of a deadly poison that the Italian Borgia family used
> in the past.
> Utena: Really...
> Anthy: How do you like those cookies? I baked them.
> Utena: What a coincidence.
> Utena: That tea is poisoned too.
> Anthy: Really?
> Anthy: It's quite delicious.
> Utena: So are these cookies.
>
> Her reaction is...strange, I think. For her. What's the deal? Is she just
> pissed at Anthy over Akio? That seems way too simple for SKU, what's going
> on underneath that? Is it sarcasm? Is she admitting she's not as great a
> prince as she thought she was? I haven't thought about this scene much, and
> in this case don't entirely trust my interpretation, since Utena's someone I
> have a little bit of a hard time with. She's not any more complicated than
> anyone else, but she just doesn't come naturally to me.
It is a really interesting discussion, and does show a change in their
relationship. I should really go and re-watch that episode before I
try and answer this, but I'm at work and feel like doing this now...
I read an essay about this a *long* time ago--may have been at your
site or possibly at one of the character shrines at Utena.net, and
though I don't remember it well, it may have unconsciously influenced
my opinion... if anyone remembers seeing something like it let me
know. ANYWAY....
IIRC, this is shortly after Utena becomes somewhat aware of Anthy and
Akio's incest, and there's been a quiet possession war going on
between Utena and Anthy. The conversation seems to be an
acknowledgement that they are both mad at each other, and both
acknowledging that they've hurt each other. At the same time, the
"it's quite delicious" comments seem to be 1) an acceptance that they
both deserve/will take punishment from one another, and 2) that--yes,
the poisoning" has happened. But it's not going to stop what happens
between them. I always felt after the "delicious" comments, a tension
that was building between Utena and Anthy is suddenly released... it
seems to be a gesture of forgiveness.
I _may_ be confusing this with another scene, but I think this is also
the scene where Utena makes Anthy promise she will still be having tea
with her ten years from now. For Utena, I think she's trying to clear
the air in the way Anthy would--a subtle, obscure way, as best as
Utena can deal with subtlety--and also reiterate that while she knows
there's some "poison" she's helped mix into their friendship, she also
wants to affirm that her friendship with Anthy is something that's
truly valuable to her.
I also think Anthy *started* the conversation as a kind of threat--a
way of saying, look, I can do bad things to you, I'm more powerful
than you think--and it surprised her when Utena went along with it and
pulled the "tea is poisoned too" line. Oddly, the power level between
them in this scene is rather balanced, unlike through much of the rest
of the series. Anthy may have still meant something much more
insidious than what Utena inferred, too, however, but Utena diverted
that with the conversation. One might say if Utena intuited that, the
diversion was intentional because she didn't want to deal with Anthy's
deeper darkness, as it were.
Some thoughts... the scene puzzles me too and I think there's lots of
ways to view it.
=====
Giovanna Spadaro
> It is a really interesting discussion, and does show a change in their
> relationship. I should really go and re-watch that episode before I
> try and answer this, but I'm at work and feel like doing this now...
>
Yasha yelled at me about that post after I made it. ;_;
I have to be punished because once again, I've slipped on habit where it
concerns Utena. Simple answer and STOP READING INTO IT LIKE IT'S AKIO
TALKING. Oops.
> I read an essay about this a *long* time ago--may have been at your
> site or possibly at one of the character shrines at Utena.net, and
> though I don't remember it well, it may have unconsciously influenced
> my opinion... if anyone remembers seeing something like it let me
> know. ANYWAY....
>
I realllly doubt it was mine because I've never tried to write at length
about Utena.
> IIRC, this is shortly after Utena becomes somewhat aware of Anthy and
> Akio's incest, and there's been a quiet possession war going on
> between Utena and Anthy. The conversation seems to be an
> acknowledgement that they are both mad at each other, and both
> acknowledging that they've hurt each other. At the same time, the
> "it's quite delicious" comments seem to be 1) an acceptance that they
> both deserve/will take punishment from one another, and 2) that--yes,
> the poisoning" has happened. But it's not going to stop what happens
> between them. I always felt after the "delicious" comments, a tension
> that was building between Utena and Anthy is suddenly released... it
> seems to be a gesture of forgiveness.
>
See? Cookies fix _everything_. It's the bandaid of psychological wounds.
Yasha
>
> > It is a really interesting discussion, and does show a change in their
> > relationship. I should really go and re-watch that episode before I
> > try and answer this, but I'm at work and feel like doing this now...
> >
>
> Yasha yelled at me about that post after I made it. ;_;
> I have to be punished because once again, I've slipped on habit where it
> concerns Utena. Simple answer and STOP READING INTO IT LIKE IT'S AKIO
> TALKING. Oops.
Aww, baby, you shouldn't worry your pretty little head over complicated
things like that. That's my job.
No, it's understandable. You spend all your time analyzing Akio and Saionji
and Touga and Anthy, it's a whole different gear to be in. Utena is very
direct compared to a lot of the other characters in the series-- not so much
with herself, but in her personality.
> > I read an essay about this a *long* time ago--may have been at your
> > site or possibly at one of the character shrines at Utena.net, and
> > though I don't remember it well, it may have unconsciously influenced
> > my opinion... if anyone remembers seeing something like it let me
> > know. ANYWAY....
> >
>
> I realllly doubt it was mine because I've never tried to write at length
> about Utena.
;_; I'll get on that as soon as I clear off some of the other things I'm
doing...
> > IIRC, this is shortly after Utena becomes somewhat aware of Anthy and
> > Akio's incest, and there's been a quiet possession war going on
> > between Utena and Anthy. The conversation seems to be an
> > acknowledgement that they are both mad at each other, and both
> > acknowledging that they've hurt each other. At the same time, the
> > "it's quite delicious" comments seem to be 1) an acceptance that they
> > both deserve/will take punishment from one another, and 2) that--yes,
> > the poisoning" has happened. But it's not going to stop what happens
> > between them. I always felt after the "delicious" comments, a tension
> > that was building between Utena and Anthy is suddenly released... it
> > seems to be a gesture of forgiveness.
> >
>
> See? Cookies fix _everything_. It's the bandaid of psychological wounds.
..........I'll ignore you now.
Wait, no I won't. I think you're right on target about this scene, Death
Quaker, and as for you, Gio-- I think you may be somewhat right too. I've
always felt there was something deeper going on there, but I don't think
it's has to do directly with Utena's reaction. Something about the whole
scene strikes me as strange, like despite the reference to the Borgias and
the translation of what Anthy and Utena are really saying, I'm still missing
something. I can't quite put my finger on it, I'll have to rewatch the
scene.
-Yasha
Yasha
"Death Quaker" <death...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d5fd9b46.04072...@posting.google.com...
In terms of what I liked in a character, I would say it was a flaw. In terms
of what Utena the character _is_.... not at all. A real person would have to
learn, perhaps even cultivate, that sort of obliviousness simply to reach
her goals. How could you aim to be a Prince if you actually listened to
people when they said that you couldn't be one because you were a girl? It's
possible that her obliviousness is a defense mechanism meant to stop her
from getting discouraged when she hears people say she can't possibly do or
be something. Oftentimes, people will fail at things because they've
listened to others who say they simply can't succeed at what they want.
Of course, defense mechanisms backfire, so she ends up missing a lot of what
goes on right in front of her face. When you learn to be stupid, it's hard
to stop being stupid. But it seems plausible that her cluelessness was
something she learned to have to protect what she wanted to be. Don't know
if it's plausible enough that I believe it, though.
>
> > > Why didn't she stay with Wakaba? Was Utena seduced, for lack of a
better
> > > word, by Anthy's manipulative neediness or is Utena a fickle friend?
> >
> > I never thought her friendship with Wakaba grew much less because of
Anthy.
> > You're led to believe they spend less time together, but it never seemed
to
> > be a problem with either of them (unless I've forgotten something
major), so
> > I'd assume that despite Wakaba's hidden hatred of Anthy, her friendship
with
> > Utena still held, though not quite as chokingly.
>
> Here's a thought... we talk of Utena drifting (or pushing) Wakaba
> away, but did Wakaba begin to separate herself because of her (hidden)
> dislike of Anthy? Did she think (even subconsciously) she could not be
> friends with Utena if Utena was also friends with Anthy?
>
> Just an idea, not one I necessarily believe.
That may have had an effect on their friendship, but... Wakaba seems to give
up her thoughts of a relationship with Saionji after her BRS duel. Thus, she
really has no reason to hate Anthy anymore. That's not to say she doesn't,
of course, but she doesn't seem to have any animosity for Anthy when they
come into contact. I think the deal Wakaba made with herself, if she
realized that she was angry with Anthy, was that she would ignore it because
Utena was her friend and there had to be something good about her for Utena
to like her. In fact, that really ties in with why Wakaba would separate
herself from the friendship a little. If she's friends with Utena because
Utena thinks she's good, then Anthy must be good somehow also. But if Anthy
isn't really that great a person, and that's what Wakaba's subconscious
thinks, that would meant that Wakaba wasn't that great a person either, for
whatever reasons. Fallacious reasoning of course, but it seems very much the
way Wakaba would think.
...I forgot about him ;_;
I know, I know, I'm a bad person. Now that you've suggested it, he doesn't
seem that bad a choice at all. However, Anthy still wins over him, simply
because she is a stabilizing element in conjunction with Utena, while
Tatsuya would be all for her lofty aspirations, perhaps encouraging her too
much. She'd be a little more emotionally and mentally worn out than she
would like if she was being pushed to try harder all the time by the one
person (I'm assuming) she cares about more than anyone else. The poor guy
wouldn't even know he was doing it either.
> I don't know if this is a vote for a soul mate, but as far as nice
> boys go, I also loved the character Kaido from the manga. Underneath
> his shy nerdy Miki-like demeanor was a bit of a firecracker
> personality (punching Aoi for "dishonoring" Utena and Aunt Yurika
> *LOL*, and yelling at Utena to get real when she was getting too
> wifty-eyed), and he was so loyal, he helped the girl he loved leave to
> find the place where she thought she could realize her dream, even
> then it meant leaving him behind.... *sighs* what a guy. He's
> nonexistent in the series, but what little we see of him in the manga,
> he was a good guy and a good friend to Utena and would be a good
> addition to her (in any version of Utena) life in some way.
>
> And if Utena doesn't want him, _I'll_ take him and marry him (when
> he's old enough).
I forgot about him too ;_; But this time I have an excuse, the last time I
read the manga was over a year ago. I didn't have an opinion on him either
way, I didn't see enough of him.
> Jury and Shiori: Hey, we thought you liked _us_...
> DQ: I do. But in my happy silly idealistic dreamworld, you two will
> end up pairing off with each other. So I'm still marrying Kaido. *hugs
> him tight*
> Kaido: Erg...
>
> > And Juri would eventually depress her with all that sobbing in the
> > shower when she was unhappy.
>
> LOL. Poor Jury. Jury and Utena could get a thing going for awhile, as
> they do have some stuff in common (but are different enough to
> compliment) but I doubt it would last; they'd each drive each other
> crazy at times. Definitely not soulmates.
>
> <snip>
Oh hell no. And I don't think Utena swings her way, at least not in the time
period of the series. She seems pretty sure that she wants a guy, although I
see that changing after she's left Ohtori. If only because the guys she was
romantically involved with, even in the loosest sense, turned out to be
utter assholes.
-Yasha
Giovanna Spadaro
Too bad the rest of the cast wasn't also in denial about recognizing limits,
the show rewards it much better. I don't think any of the other characters
had such a stubborn opinion of how things should or shouldn't be. Except
Akio, but he had a slightly different agenda, last I checked.
I definitely think it's a defense mechanism, the same idea as Nemuro seeing
a million caskets and never once actually _seeing_ them. It seems too simple
(here I go with forced complexity, stop me if I'm barking up the wrong tree)
to assume she's really that dense and there's nothing else going on. It does
stink of defense mechanism. Her world would collapse the moment people
stopped being what she wanted them to be. Which, I might add, is a strong
argument for her having a rough time on the outside. In a way, getting
manipulated from every angle protected her from that. Everyone's always been
what she wants them to be because it's always suited their purpose. By the
end of the series, that blows up in her face with Anthy, and admittedly, she
deals with it well. Hopefully it means she's dropped that particular
complex, or at least started bringing it down. Her drive to protect everyone
around her isn't always going to be met with fondness. In fact, I'd wager on
meeting Anthy, she'd be surprised how independent Anthy's become, if she's
had a few years on her own. They establish pretty well that Utena and Anthy
are on equal footing, sorta, by the end, but I can't help wonder if Utena
wouldn't try to jump on old habits as a knee-jerk reaction. Everyone acts
like it's all happy happy in the end, but the end is just that. An end. Not
a correction. They're all leaving Ohtori with a metric ton of psychological
issues they aren't just going to shed because they're away from the awful
evil influence of Akio. If anything reality will make some of them worse.
Touga will be absolutely unbearable when he finds reality lacks anything
remotely like Akio to act as a glass ceiling marking the highest point he
can't reach. You think he's power-hungry now...
I'm not on topic anymore. Don't do this at midnight when you have work, Gio.
She also strikes me as the type of person that would let distance build up
because they thought that's what the other person wanted, and would rather
their friend be happy, even if it's with a new best friend. Except that it
would never sit well with her, perhaps to the degree it would fester and
she'd come to hate the person that served as the wedge she placed by
allowing it to stay there. I'm not saying that's the case here, but just an
impression I get of her.
> > I don't know if this is a vote for a soul mate, but as far as nice
> > boys go, I also loved the character Kaido from the manga. Underneath
> > his shy nerdy Miki-like demeanor was a bit of a firecracker
> > personality (punching Aoi for "dishonoring" Utena and Aunt Yurika
> > *LOL*, and yelling at Utena to get real when she was getting too
> > wifty-eyed), and he was so loyal, he helped the girl he loved leave to
> > find the place where she thought she could realize her dream, even
> > then it meant leaving him behind.... *sighs* what a guy. He's
> > nonexistent in the series, but what little we see of him in the manga,
> > he was a good guy and a good friend to Utena and would be a good
> > addition to her (in any version of Utena) life in some way.
> >
> > And if Utena doesn't want him, _I'll_ take him and marry him (when
> > he's old enough).
>
> I forgot about him too ;_; But this time I have an excuse, the last time I
> read the manga was over a year ago. I didn't have an opinion on him either
> way, I didn't see enough of him.
Who was he? Oh my, I don't remember the manga at all. Except that Akio wore
plaid pants. I only remember that because I scanned it.
> >
> > LOL. Poor Jury. Jury and Utena could get a thing going for awhile, as
> > they do have some stuff in common (but are different enough to
> > compliment) but I doubt it would last; they'd each drive each other
> > crazy at times. Definitely not soulmates.
> >
> > <snip>
>
> Oh hell no.
Yeah, no. I don't think that relationship's going anywhere...
And I don't think Utena swings her way, at least not in the time
> period of the series. She seems pretty sure that she wants a guy, although
I
> see that changing after she's left Ohtori. If only because the guys she
was
> romantically involved with, even in the loosest sense, turned out to be
> utter assholes.
>
There's only one man in all the universe that would think he's done good
work by being so horrible and cruel that he's driven a woman to lesbianism.
Touga won't agree, for his part.
> -Yasha
Death Quaker
Defense mechanism is a very good explanation. Really, she's wrapped
herself in this rose-colored (pardon the pun) vision of the world ever
since she met "the Prince." Her inability to "see" the shadows even
blocks part of that memory--the part where she sees Anthy in eternal
torment--until nearly the very end.
> Which, I might add, is a strong
> argument for her having a rough time on the outside. In a way, getting
> manipulated from every angle protected her from that. Everyone's always been
> what she wants them to be because it's always suited their purpose. By the
> end of the series, that blows up in her face with Anthy, and admittedly, she
> deals with it well. Hopefully it means she's dropped that particular
> complex, or at least started bringing it down. Her drive to protect everyone
> around her isn't always going to be met with fondness. In fact, I'd wager on
> meeting Anthy, she'd be surprised how independent Anthy's become, if she's
> had a few years on her own. They establish pretty well that Utena and Anthy
> are on equal footing, sorta, by the end, but I can't help wonder if Utena
> wouldn't try to jump on old habits as a knee-jerk reaction.
Oddly enough, depending on circumstances, I thought Utena might go in
the opposite direction.... realizing she _can't_ be a Prince, she
shuts some of that drive out.... she could even grow cold... in danger
of becoming of a second Akio....
The hope is, of course, she learns to balance her compassion and
nobility with realism and letting people live their lives for
theirselves. Anthy could teach that to her--simply by letting her
realize that it wasn't that Utena "rescued" her as a Prince, but
because Utena helped Anthy finally realize that she had a choice about
her fate--and Utena couldn't force that decision, Anthy had to make it
herself.
The Outside World ain't supposed to be easy. To be "Ready for the
Outside World" doesn't mean you're immeasurably strong or can handle
all problems perfectly, it just means you are willing to deal with the
difficulties, at least on some level. To borrow from the movie, the
Outside World--i.e. being willing to grow up--"has no roads". You have
to make the roads for yourself.
> Everyone acts
> like it's all happy happy in the end, but the end is just that. An end. Not
> a correction. They're all leaving Ohtori with a metric ton of psychological
> issues they aren't just going to shed because they're away from the awful
> evil influence of Akio. If anything reality will make some of them worse.
> Touga will be absolutely unbearable when he finds reality lacks anything
> remotely like Akio to act as a glass ceiling marking the highest point he
> can't reach. You think he's power-hungry now...
I discussed this at length with Scortia several months back in a
thread Scortia created about the end.... if you get on Google you
should be able to search this NG and find it pretty easily.
I think the point of the ending is neither that everyone's still
damned nor that everyone's suddenly happy happy... all that's occurred
is that people are freed from the duels and can go back to their
normal lives. All the duellists engaged in the Duels because they
thought winning could give them the magic miracle to solve their
problems. There's no promise of a magic miracle now; they have to deal
with life themselves. Showing them in the areas they are, shows to me
that they are trying to get on with living life. Whether they do a
good job of living that life is up to them.
Again--the point is that it's their choice, but they still have to
make the decision themselves.
> I'm not on topic anymore. Don't do this at midnight when you have work, Gio.
Tangential conversations at AFU? NEVER!
^^
<snip>
> > > I don't know if this is a vote for a soul mate, but as far as nice
> > > boys go, I also loved the character Kaido from the manga. Underneath
> > > his shy nerdy Miki-like demeanor was a bit of a firecracker
> > > personality (punching Aoi for "dishonoring" Utena and Aunt Yurika
> > > *LOL*, and yelling at Utena to get real when she was getting too
> > > wifty-eyed), and he was so loyal, he helped the girl he loved leave to
> > > find the place where she thought she could realize her dream, even
> > > then it meant leaving him behind.... *sighs* what a guy. He's
> > > nonexistent in the series, but what little we see of him in the manga,
> > > he was a good guy and a good friend to Utena and would be a good
> > > addition to her (in any version of Utena) life in some way.
> > >
> > > And if Utena doesn't want him, _I'll_ take him and marry him (when
> > > he's old enough).
> >
> > I forgot about him too ;_; But this time I have an excuse, the last time I
> > read the manga was over a year ago. I didn't have an opinion on him either
> > way, I didn't see enough of him.
>
> Who was he? Oh my, I don't remember the manga at all. Except that Akio wore
> plaid pants. I only remember that because I scanned it.
The manga begins with a prelude story about how Utena receives
postcards from "her prince" and she is trying to figure out how to
find him using his messages. The characters in the prelude include her
friend Kaido, who helps her decipher the postcards. There's also her
Aunt Yurika and an Ohtori graduate named Aoi Wakaoji, all of whom are
fairly interesting characters, even though we only see them briefly.
<snip>
> > And I don't think Utena swings her way, at least not in the time
> > period of the series. She seems pretty sure that she wants a guy, although
> > I see that changing after she's left Ohtori. If only because the guys she
> > was romantically involved with, even in the loosest sense, turned out to be
> > utter assholes.
>
> There's only one man in all the universe that would think he's done good
> work by being so horrible and cruel that he's driven a woman to lesbianism.
> Touga won't agree, for his part.
*ahem*
Except that it's impossible to "drive" anyone to homosexuality, or
heterosexuality, or bisexuality. You are or you aren't--unless you
hold to the theory that all people are inherently different degrees of
bisexual, with social and other environmental factors mildly
influencing which way one "swings." In which case she wouldn't be
"driven to lesbianism" but just inspired to explore a previously
unexplored-but-already-inherent attraction to women. This latter
theory I actually like better myself, but I am incredibly biased in
that regard.
Death Quaker
> > It is a really interesting discussion, and does show a change in their
> > relationship. I should really go and re-watch that episode before I
> > try and answer this, but I'm at work and feel like doing this now...
> >
>
> Yasha yelled at me about that post after I made it. ;_;
> I have to be punished because once again, I've slipped on habit where it
> concerns Utena. Simple answer and STOP READING INTO IT LIKE IT'S AKIO
> TALKING. Oops.
Nah... reading into everything is fun! (says the lit major)
> > I read an essay about this a *long* time ago--may have been at your
> > site or possibly at one of the character shrines at Utena.net, and
> > though I don't remember it well, it may have unconsciously influenced
> > my opinion... if anyone remembers seeing something like it let me
> > know. ANYWAY....
> >
>
> I realllly doubt it was mine because I've never tried to write at length
> about Utena.
Probably Utena.net then.
> > IIRC, this is shortly after Utena becomes somewhat aware of Anthy and
> > Akio's incest, and there's been a quiet possession war going on
> > between Utena and Anthy. The conversation seems to be an
> > acknowledgement that they are both mad at each other, and both
> > acknowledging that they've hurt each other. At the same time, the
> > "it's quite delicious" comments seem to be 1) an acceptance that they
> > both deserve/will take punishment from one another, and 2) that--yes,
> > the poisoning" has happened. But it's not going to stop what happens
> > between them. I always felt after the "delicious" comments, a tension
> > that was building between Utena and Anthy is suddenly released... it
> > seems to be a gesture of forgiveness.
> >
>
> See? Cookies fix _everything_. It's the bandaid of psychological wounds.
Which reminds me, I told Vince I'd bring him cookies at Otakon....
Richard V. Lamb
> > See? Cookies fix _everything_. It's the bandaid of psychological wounds.
>
> Which reminds me, I told Vince I'd bring him cookies at Otakon....
;_; :_(
DQ, I'd *love* to meet you and enjoy your cookies, but I'll have to take a
rain check on both this year. First, it came down to Otakon and a business
trip. The business trip won. Now it's between the business trip and a
birthday present for my daughter (who is also an anime fan) in lieu of going
to Otakon. Rising interest rates and the sinking US dollar suck.
Vince
Death Quaker
No problem--it was your idea anyway, and I'm sorry you can't see it to
fruition. I hope things work out with your obligations--business and
moreover daughters are important!
Meanwhile, I am hoping plans for an AFU@Otakon2005 work out.
I just got a digital camera and will have it up and running to take
pics of cosplayers and such, so I'll bring y'all my report if I find
any Utena-related goodness. I was just walking past the Baltimore
Convention Center last night and was getting very bouncy in
anticipation of next week's con goodness and seeing Baltimore's
poshish tourist district crawling with people dressed like Sailor Moon
and the like. I'm very excited! ^^
If anyone else here's going to Otakon this year (I doubt it as most of
y'all are far from the East Coast) and wants to meet for coffee and
Utena-geekitude I'd be happy to--and if not that's also totally cool
and understandable. E-mail me at the e-mail address above (or
anyna...@deathquaker.org) if you are indeed interested.
Now.... I have *almost* gotten some more stuff ready for my Utena
site, and need to concentrate on finishing that for the next several
days. I seemed to have babbled myself a storm overmuchly in the past
couple days anyway, so it's probably a good time to give y'all (or
yinz, as they say in Pittsburgh) a brief respite... 'sides, you guys
have been giving me some good ideas I can turn into site content! See
y'all after (or possibly during) the con!
=====
Death Quaker!
(Who does NOT understand why she is awake at 8:30 a.m. on a Saturday)
Giovanna Spadaro
> > Who was he? Oh my, I don't remember the manga at all. Except that Akio
wore
> > plaid pants. I only remember that because I scanned it.
>
> The manga begins with a prelude story about how Utena receives
> postcards from "her prince" and she is trying to figure out how to
> find him using his messages. The characters in the prelude include her
> friend Kaido, who helps her decipher the postcards. There's also her
> Aunt Yurika and an Ohtori graduate named Aoi Wakaoji, all of whom are
> fairly interesting characters, even though we only see them briefly.
>
OOOOOh, the dude with the funky hairstyle!
> <snip>
>
> > > And I don't think Utena swings her way, at least not in the time
> > > period of the series. She seems pretty sure that she wants a guy,
although
> > > I see that changing after she's left Ohtori. If only because the guys
she
> > > was romantically involved with, even in the loosest sense, turned out
to be
> > > utter assholes.
> >
> > There's only one man in all the universe that would think he's done good
> > work by being so horrible and cruel that he's driven a woman to
lesbianism.
> > Touga won't agree, for his part.
>
> *ahem*
>
> Except that it's impossible to "drive" anyone to homosexuality, or
> heterosexuality, or bisexuality. You are or you aren't--unless you
> hold to the theory that all people are inherently different degrees of
> bisexual, with social and other environmental factors mildly
> influencing which way one "swings." In which case she wouldn't be
> "driven to lesbianism" but just inspired to explore a previously
> unexplored-but-already-inherent attraction to women. This latter
> theory I actually like better myself, but I am incredibly biased in
> that regard.
>
I know, I was making a joke. ^_^
--
Giovanna Spadaro
http://ohtori.nu
UtenaCode(1.1) U:! F:Ak+++>Sa+++>:OA D:Ut--> X:***:a++++ M:f"Internal Clock,
Municipal Orrery"
> ====
Death Quaker
> > > Who was he? Oh my, I don't remember the manga at all. Except that Akio
> wore
> > > plaid pants. I only remember that because I scanned it.
> >
> > The manga begins with a prelude story about how Utena receives
> > postcards from "her prince" and she is trying to figure out how to
> > find him using his messages. The characters in the prelude include her
> > friend Kaido, who helps her decipher the postcards. There's also her
> > Aunt Yurika and an Ohtori graduate named Aoi Wakaoji, all of whom are
> > fairly interesting characters, even though we only see them briefly.
> >
>
> OOOOOh, the dude with the funky hairstyle!
Kaido or Aoi?
> > <snip>
> >
> > > > And I don't think Utena swings her way, at least not in the time
> > > > period of the series. She seems pretty sure that she wants a guy,
> although
> > > > I see that changing after she's left Ohtori. If only because the guys
> she
> > > > was romantically involved with, even in the loosest sense, turned out
> to be
> > > > utter assholes.
> > >
> > > There's only one man in all the universe that would think he's done good
> > > work by being so horrible and cruel that he's driven a woman to
> lesbianism.
> > > Touga won't agree, for his part.
> >
> > *ahem*
> >
> > Except that it's impossible to "drive" anyone to homosexuality, or
> > heterosexuality, or bisexuality. You are or you aren't--unless you
> > hold to the theory that all people are inherently different degrees of
> > bisexual, with social and other environmental factors mildly
> > influencing which way one "swings." In which case she wouldn't be
> > "driven to lesbianism" but just inspired to explore a previously
> > unexplored-but-already-inherent attraction to women. This latter
> > theory I actually like better myself, but I am incredibly biased in
> > that regard.
> >
>
> I know, I was making a joke. ^_^
#._.# Gah. Sorry. Bit sensitive about that... and been bizarrely
oversensitive about a lot of things lately. I think I need a vacation.
*looks at calendar* Ah, I'm getting one in a few days... good....
=====
Death Quaker! (okay, I can't stay away...)
Jiras Corrino
>> SPOILERS
>> OF
>> COURSE,
>> IT'S
>> UTENA,
>> OUR
>> BRAVE,
>> YET
>> SWEET
>> GIRL!
>>
<snip>
I don't know if I can answer your questions completely, but the thought just
struck me that the person Anthy is referring to is Cesare Borgia, the cutthroat
renaissance Italian nobleman who was the direct inspiration for Niccolo
Macchiavelli's book, The Prince. Borgia's sister Lucrezia, by the way, was a
seductress who aided her brother in his schemes (sound familiar?)... Perhaps
Anthy, in making that reference, was trying to tell Utena that Princes aren't
so pure and noble, that sometimes they will employ any vile means to achieve
their ends. Perhaps Utena's reply is a tacit acknowlegement that deep down she
isn't so pure either...
Jiras Corrino aka Olo Moss of Lake-by-Downs
afu no Chuchu
afu no Mikage's Elevator
Proud Member, Wakaba Genki Preservation Society!
Pro-Shiorist and PROUD!
tedne
> Okay, DQ's right - we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> object.
>
> So - let's talk about her! ^_^
>
> SPOILERS
> OF
> COURSE,
> IT'S
> UTENA,
> OUR
> BRAVE,
> YET
> SWEET
> GIRL!
> Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
> Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
Well, at least in the manga I would say yes. She loves Touga, Wakaba,
Akio, and Anthy. She wants very much to love but she is inept. She is
thoughtless, because she does not realize that love takes a lot of
thought and consideration. It is not unusual for people to act like
inconsiderate jerks, not because they really are, but because they have
not learned HOW to love. Love is a social skill that has to be learned.
> And, is she really as strong as we like to think?
Similar answer. Manga Utena has great potential for strength. But Chiho
Saito said quite plainly that Utena has not realized that she cannot be
both a prince and princess. She is secretly haunted by the desire to
have someone take care of her. She finally realizes that to be a prince
she cannot be a princess.
who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
> and why?
In both movie and manga it is clear that her lifelong friend (soulmate,
lover, platonic friend, whatever) is Anthy. In the manga, Ikuhara said
that Utena symbolizes the freedom that Anthy finally attains.
BTW, I think that Utena and Anthy both succeed in becoming a prince.
Manga Utena has a hard time understanding what it actually is to be a
prince; it is much more difficult and less glamorous than she thought.
All the characters, and probably all of us, have the ability to become a
prince. Utena and Anthy achieve it first.
Brian
Jiras Corrino
>From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
>Date: Mon, Jul 19, 2004 1:30 PM
>Message-id: <d5fd9b46.0407...@posting.google.com>
>
>"sephigirl" <seph...@inebraskasucks.com> wrote in message
news:<40f9c...@corp.newsgroups.com>...
>> Okay, DQ's right -
>
>My god!!! Is the world coming to an end??? ~_^
>
>> we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
>> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
>> object.
>
>Is there anything sacred at AFU?
What? Is this your first day here? ^^
Plus, this twisted love triangle had the very helpful effect of destroying the
more naive Prince/Princess relationship that carried Utena and Anthy through
the majority of the series. From that point on, Utena will fight for Anthy not
because she thinks of her as some defenceless innocent but because she is her
friend, which is certainly a more solid motivation for Utena...
>> Did she love anyone, truly? Or was she simply on her "I'm a Prince, by
>> Dios" kick and that's all that ruled her heart?
>
>In the universal sense, I think she loved Wakaba, although so sadly
>they grew apart over time. She loved Anthy, in whatever sense you want
>to believe, or she would have seen the stabbing as the final betrayal
>and just left her to her fate right there.
Excellent point.
>She certainly acted in many cases to "rescue" people because she felt
>that was she was supposed to do in order to accomplish becoming a
>prince (a goal that may not have had an end in sight... could she ever
>judge when she had become strong and noble enough?), but she also I
>think had genuine compassion which was a source of her "nobility," as
>"Dios" recognized it. Contrast this to Touga's concept of "chivalry,"
>which at least in the beginning caused him not to treat women "nobly"
>because he felt that's what they deserved, but because that's what he
>felt he was supposed to do; for him it was a superficial code of
>honor--make the woman believe with pretty words she's the honored
>damsel, but then ignore her phone calls because he's too busy banging
>someone else (in fairness, Touga loses some of this superficiality
>over time, at least in some respects to Utena).
>
>> And, is she really as strong as we like to think?
>
>I'm not sure how strong we think she is. I think she's as strong as a
>14 year old girl can be, and amazingly determined. She has her flaws
>and her weak points just like anyone else.
>
>Here's another question--Does _she_ think she's as strong as we like
>to think?
I think she fears that she's not strong enough, but I also think she refuses to
assume that she's not strong enough.
I think so too, and I think this is a reason why she gave Utena her sword to
use in her rematch with Touga.
If Wakaba wants more face time with Utena, she better start getting in trouble
more. She could take up smoking crack, for instance...
>> She "beat" Mikage but she never realized she was protecting a precious
>> memory; he, instead, realized his. Did she come to understand that, in
>the
>> end?
>
>That's a tough question... I think partly, she finally remembered the
>"real" memory behind the fairy-tale memory she'd turned the
>prince-memory into--and in doing so, she could resolve what really
>happened.
>
>I'm tempted to go on, but I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts
>here, and I've already been typing for over 25 minutes! So moving
>on...
>
>> If there could be ONE person from Ohtori (including Dios and ChuChu and
>> Tokiko ^_^), who do you think would be best suited to be Utena's soulmate
>> and why?
>
>Gawd, I don't know. I certainly think Utena and Anthy pair off very
>well, in whatever sense you want to take it--Anthy's cynicism and
>knowledge of the darkness of the world and of herself balance well
>with Utena's faith in everyone's inner goodness. Anthy showed Utena
>there's some horrible things in the world, and Utena showed Anthy that
>it's still a world worth fighting for. The only way to stop the
>darkness is to fight it, not succumb. Together they could do that very
>well--and thus a revolution is born.
Truly, they are the very picture of duality. ^^
>> Add your own questions, insights different from these - let's finally
>open
>> that book and discuss our favorite girl - series, movie, manga, if need
>be.
>
>Manga Utena strikes me for being at once much more obviously a
>teenager and yet also being much more confident in herself and
>clear-headed about the people around her. She's not *quite* (quite,
>mind you) as oblivious as TV Utena, and seems to see past Touga's and
>Akio's lines faster than her series counterpart (but the manga is a
>shorter and less complex story). She also seems much more confident in
>her role as the prince/Anthy's friend/protector... "Don't you know
>what my name means? It means 'calyx,' which protects the flower until
>it's ready to bloom..." (or some such... I'm recalling this from
>memory).
Also, she points out that Anthy's name means "flower", so it is proper that the
"calyx" should protect the "flower" when it is still a bud.
>I also thought Manga Utena's crush on Miki (and vice versa) was cute.
>^^
>
>Movie Utena is in the opposite direction, being less sure of herself,
>less optimistic, and has no idea what role she is to play in the
>world. She's a somber, introspective Utena--but she almost makes me
>think that this is what Utena--any version of Utena--is really like
>inside her head, behind the bravado and the prince-play. On the other
>hand, she comes to clarity about her memories and what she wants out
>of the world very quickly (but again, condensed story). She knows
>precisely what she--and Anthy--needs to get going--to get out of the
>world of idealized memory and back into the real world and accept
>growing up. I really like in the movie how Utena and Anthy are much
>more *partners* in what they need to accomplish, showing how they need
>each other to revolutionize their own personal worlds.
Movie Utena is interesting, she is at the beginning a bit introverted and quick
to anger (in other words, she not only dresses like a male teenager, she's
adopted the personality of one too), the old Utena would have never thrown
Anthy to the ground... Of course, the difference between TV Utena and Movie
Utena is that the former's Prince is still alive, and the latter's is dead,
thus one is as optimistic as the other is pessimistic. Interestingly, both
eventually have to let go of their Princes to save the day...
>My four or five cents.
And here's your change... ^^
Death Quaker
> >Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] U-TE-NA - the Girl, the Prince, the Bride
> >From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
> >Date: Mon, Jul 19, 2004 1:30 PM
> >Message-id: <d5fd9b46.0407...@posting.google.com>
> >
> >"sephigirl" <seph...@inebraskasucks.com> wrote in message
> news:<40f9c...@corp.newsgroups.com>...
> >> Okay, DQ's right -
> >
> >My god!!! Is the world coming to an end??? ~_^
> >
> >> we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> >> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> >> object.
> >
> >Is there anything sacred at AFU?
>
> What? Is this your first day here? ^^
Why do you ask snarky rhetorical questions in response to snarky
rhetorical questions as if the first snarky rhetorical question were
not a snarky rhetorical question?
<snip>
> >> And, is she really as strong as we like to think?
> >
> >I'm not sure how strong we think she is. I think she's as strong as a
> >14 year old girl can be, and amazingly determined. She has her flaws
> >and her weak points just like anyone else.
> >
> >Here's another question--Does _she_ think she's as strong as we like
> >to think?
>
> I think she fears that she's not strong enough, but I also think she refuses > to assume that she's not strong enough.
That is a very good way of putting it. A trait of many heroes,
actually. "No one else can or will do it, so I guess I've got to try."
<snip>
> >> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one
> cute,
> >> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
> >> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt.
> And
> >> like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
> >
> >Could be. I don't know if she saw this, although I imagine many of the
> >council saw themselves in her, Jury especially (which is why I think
> >Jury actually gets so rough with her at first).
>
> I think so too, and I think this is a reason why she gave Utena her sword to
> use in her rematch with Touga.
Yes. In some ways, I wonder if it's a "reward" (for lack of a better
word) to Utena for trying to get off her feet and get back what she
lost/move past the betrayal--something Jury's never quite had the guts
to do.
That is not what I meant, of course.
Realistically, healthily, Utena needs to learn to make time for all
the people she cares about. Encouraging friends to do self-destructive
things to get attention is stupid.
All I was saying was that when one person very obviously needs help,
it's very easy to let your concern blind you to what's going on in the
rest of your life/relationships.
<snip>
> >Manga Utena strikes me for being at once much more obviously a
> >teenager and yet also being much more confident in herself and
> >clear-headed about the people around her. She's not *quite* (quite,
> >mind you) as oblivious as TV Utena, and seems to see past Touga's and
> >Akio's lines faster than her series counterpart (but the manga is a
> >shorter and less complex story). She also seems much more confident in
> >her role as the prince/Anthy's friend/protector... "Don't you know
> >what my name means? It means 'calyx,' which protects the flower until
> >it's ready to bloom..." (or some such... I'm recalling this from
> >memory).
>
> Also, she points out that Anthy's name means "flower", so it is proper that
> the "calyx" should protect the "flower" when it is still a bud.
This is not mentioned in the manga, but the calyx also "releases" the
flower when it's finished its growth cycle, and then, while somewhat
dry and bald, is left to shelter the fruit that grows after the flower
is gone.
This means absolutely nothing, except that I spend too much time
thinking about rose gardening.
> >I also thought Manga Utena's crush on Miki (and vice versa) was cute.
> >^^
> >
> >Movie Utena is in the opposite direction, being less sure of herself,
> >less optimistic, and has no idea what role she is to play in the
> >world. She's a somber, introspective Utena--but she almost makes me
> >think that this is what Utena--any version of Utena--is really like
> >inside her head, behind the bravado and the prince-play. On the other
> >hand, she comes to clarity about her memories and what she wants out
> >of the world very quickly (but again, condensed story). She knows
> >precisely what she--and Anthy--needs to get going--to get out of the
> >world of idealized memory and back into the real world and accept
> >growing up. I really like in the movie how Utena and Anthy are much
> >more *partners* in what they need to accomplish, showing how they need
> >each other to revolutionize their own personal worlds.
>
> Movie Utena is interesting, she is at the beginning a bit introverted and
> quick to anger (in other words, she not only dresses like a male teenager,
> she's adopted the personality of one too), the old Utena would have never
> thrown Anthy to the ground...
That's an interesting observation. I think this trait is a lot more
prevalent at the beginning of the movie than as the movie
progresses--but Utena certainly is much more tomboyish--maybe even as
far as being a true transvestite (fetishizing the "masculine" in the
socially constructed sense) (I won't say transgender--she clearly
identifies as female regardless of dress and outward behaviors).
She tells Touga she wears the boy's uniform (again, a more typical
boy's uniform than the traditional Utena outfit) "because of the
Prince" -- to remind herself of the ideals she now wants to live
for--as if somehow boy's clothes and acting stereotypically masculine
would be a path to that.... and yet we also know she owns "cute"
girlish dresses and was rather girly looking when she dated Touga. In
the past-flashbacks, likewise, she acts more "girly" and dependent. Is
this forced "masculinity" a means of dissociating herself from her
past or does she believe it will make her feel less helpless, as she
did when Jury was in the lake and then Touga died saving her?
I wonder if Utena's ultimate form--no, not the car, but her duelling
outfit, with the long flowing hair, "masculine" jacket but then frills
and shorts that show off the legs--is then a balance between the weak
but emotionally cognizant "feminine" mode she'd originally left behind
and the strong but detached "masculine" mode she'd adopted while at
Ohtori. She can take on the positive traits of both and move toward
the revolution--when she reconciles her feelings but still retains her
determination to move on and become a better person, she had become
balanced within herself. It is then that Anthy offers her
Princeship--but the Utena also finally has the clarity of vision to
know that is only a false reward. Since she has her memory and knows
herself and knows what she is, not just what she was or what she
dreams of being--she can finally realize the world they live in within
itself is an illusion, and she feels she is now self-realized enough
to take on the real world.
(Anthy's identity crises are less entrenched in gender construction at
least as they reflect upon herself, although one could interpret her
issues with Dios/Akio--and that her "magics" created the illusion of
Dios--reflect her views of her brother and her relationship with him
as clouded by very fabricated, old-fashioned stereotype concept of
male-dominator female-submissive--for her it's not how she sees
herself but how she sees others--and she too changes when she realizes
a woman can play an important role in her life, and *is* the kind
protector she only "magicked" her brother into being--for her it's
that gender/gender roles no longer become an issue.)
There's some late-night rambling for ya! I'll have to read this in the
morning and see if it made any sense.
> Of course, the difference between TV Utena and
> Movie Utena is that the former's Prince is still alive, and the latter's is
> dead, thus one is as optimistic as the other is pessimistic. Interestingly,
> both eventually have to let go of their Princes to save the day...
I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
"The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society – 'women
no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
in society.'[5]"
This is from a review/analysis of the movie here:
http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue5/charlton_review.html
(I found the link at the official CPM Utena TV page--kinda cool that
they put it there.)
Kevin Trainor
<snip>
> > >> Okay, DQ's right -
> > >
> > >My god!!! Is the world coming to an end??? ~_^
> > >
> > >> we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> > >> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> > >> object.
> > >
> > >Is there anything sacred at AFU?
> >
> > What? Is this your first day here? ^^
>
> Why do you ask snarky rhetorical questions in response to snarky
> rhetorical questions as if the first snarky rhetorical question were
> not a snarky rhetorical question?
>
I'm guilty of it myself on occasion; it's one way us social cripples make
conversation.
> <snip>
> <snip>
>
> > >> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one
> > cute,
> > >> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
> > >> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt.
> > And like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
> > >
> > >Could be. I don't know if she saw this, although I imagine many of the
> > >council saw themselves in her, Jury especially (which is why I think
> > >Jury actually gets so rough with her at first).
> >
> > I think so too, and I think this is a reason why she gave Utena her sword to
> > use in her rematch with Touga.
>
> Yes. In some ways, I wonder if it's a "reward" (for lack of a better
> word) to Utena for trying to get off her feet and get back what she
> lost/move past the betrayal--something Jury's never quite had the guts
> to do.
>
It's certainly plausible. There's certainly overtones of regret and missed
opportunity in the Juri/Utena relationship.
<snip>
>
> > Of course, the difference between TV Utena and
> > Movie Utena is that the former's Prince is still alive, and the latter's is
> > dead, thus one is as optimistic as the other is pessimistic. Interestingly,
> > both eventually have to let go of their Princes to save the day...
>
> I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
>
> "The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
> that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
> rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
> dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society - 'women
> no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
> in society.'[5]"
>
> This is from a review/analysis of the movie here:
> http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue5/charlton_review.html
>
> (I found the link at the official CPM Utena TV page--kinda cool that
> they put it there.)
>
It's a pretty cool essay, and not as sunk in academic bloviation as some
lit-crit papers I've seen on the Net. It makes me wonder how many other
Utena papers are out there - almost certainly not as many as Buffy papers,
to be sure, but I can't help thinking there's a mess of them out there.
Definitely cool that CPM linked it.
Death Quaker
> "Death Quaker" <death...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:d5fd9b46.04080...@posting.google.com...
> <snip>
> > > >> Okay, DQ's right -
> > > >
> > > >My god!!! Is the world coming to an end??? ~_^
> > > >
> > > >> we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> > > >> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> > > >> object.
> > > >
> > > >Is there anything sacred at AFU?
> > >
> > > What? Is this your first day here? ^^
> >
> > Why do you ask snarky rhetorical questions in response to snarky
> > rhetorical questions as if the first snarky rhetorical question were
> > not a snarky rhetorical question?
> >
> "He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases." (HHO25%K)
Okay, quote from Lewis Carroll I get, but what's HHO25%K?
> I'm guilty of it myself on occasion; it's one way us social cripples make
> conversation.
Wow... you can make conversation? One day I might become so capable...
;)
> > <snip>
> > <snip>
> >
> > > >> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into one
> cute,
> > > >> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
> > > >> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt.
> And like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
> > > >
> > > >Could be. I don't know if she saw this, although I imagine many of the
> > > >council saw themselves in her, Jury especially (which is why I think
> > > >Jury actually gets so rough with her at first).
> > >
> > > I think so too, and I think this is a reason why she gave Utena her sword to
> > > use in her rematch with Touga.
> >
> > Yes. In some ways, I wonder if it's a "reward" (for lack of a better
> > word) to Utena for trying to get off her feet and get back what she
> > lost/move past the betrayal--something Jury's never quite had the guts
> > to do.
> >
> It's certainly plausible. There's certainly overtones of regret and missed
> opportunity in the Juri/Utena relationship.
Clarify: regret and missed opportunity *between* Utena and Jury, or
simply that both characters have similar themes in their lives?
If the former... an idea has come upon me... now, I have usually never
taken Jury's request for Utena's picture to be serious--to me it seems
she's either teasing Utena or Shiori (who's standing behind
her)--Utena most likely, joining in after Miki's comment about
worrying about her. BUT...
Even if she is a tiny bit serious... on one hand, it can be an
acknowledgement of attraction. But a locket is also to store mementos,
and I've always thought specifically the presence of Shiori in the
locket--and the fact that Jury stares at it even when Shiori is at the
school--is that its a reminder of something that she's lost. So is
Jury actually asking Utena for her picture... because she anticipates
Utena leaving?
<snip>
<snip>
> > > Of course, the difference between TV Utena and
> > > Movie Utena is that the former's Prince is still alive, and the latter's is
> > > dead, thus one is as optimistic as the other is pessimistic. Interestingly,
> > > both eventually have to let go of their Princes to save the day...
> >
> > I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
> >
> > "The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
> > that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
> > rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
> > dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society - 'women
> > no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
> > in society.'[5]"
> >
> > This is from a review/analysis of the movie here:
> > http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue5/charlton_review.html
> >
> > (I found the link at the official CPM Utena TV page--kinda cool that
> > they put it there.)
> >
> It's a pretty cool essay, and not as sunk in academic bloviation as some
> lit-crit papers I've seen on the Net. It makes me wonder how many other
> Utena papers are out there - almost certainly not as many as Buffy papers,
> to be sure, but I can't help thinking there's a mess of them out there.
There's probably a few. I was tempted in grad school, but nothing ever
*quite* fit, and I felt in some cases I would need much better
background in Japanese culture to do it successfully.
It's always an idea though... very tempted, but the amount of research
required to really do it justice has it low on my list of priorities.
Still, an idea for something to do some day. I've an acquaintance who
is a Japanese sociologist who focuses on gender structure and
relationships... I could consult with her about the culture factors
perhaps...
> Definitely cool that CPM linked it.
Very. There's some good people there I think. They're a bit disjointed
though, and I think it shows in the quality of their product.
Kevin Trainor
> > <snip>
> > > > >> Okay, DQ's right -
> > > > >
> > > > >My god!!! Is the world coming to an end??? ~_^
> > > > >
> > > > >> we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
> > > > >> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
> > > > >> object.
> > > > >
> > > > >Is there anything sacred at AFU?
> > > >
> > > > What? Is this your first day here? ^^
> > >
> > > Why do you ask snarky rhetorical questions in response to snarky
> > > rhetorical questions as if the first snarky rhetorical question were
> > > not a snarky rhetorical question?
> > >
> > "He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases." (HHO25%K)
>
> Okay, quote from Lewis Carroll I get, but what's HHO25%K?
>
Ha Ha Only 25% Kidding. HHOK is more common.
> > I'm guilty of it myself on occasion; it's one way us social cripples make
> > conversation.
>
> Wow... you can make conversation? One day I might become so capable...
> ;)
>
Me spik reull prety sum day. No, no, put away the super-soaker! I'll behave!
The former. Maybe I read too much fanfic, but I think there's some
attraction and friendliness between the two that might have become more
solid and deep in other circumstances - if the whole Student Council/dueling
thing hadn't gotten in the way.
> Even if she is a tiny bit serious... on one hand, it can be an
> acknowledgement of attraction. But a locket is also to store mementos,
> and I've always thought specifically the presence of Shiori in the
> locket--and the fact that Jury stares at it even when Shiori is at the
> school--is that its a reminder of something that she's lost. So is
> Jury actually asking Utena for her picture... because she anticipates
> Utena leaving?
>
Could be. Juri's perceptive enough of others to realize how far and how
fast Utena's development has been.
The more I read about Japanese culture, the more creepy I find a lot of anime.
> It's always an idea though... very tempted, but the amount of research
> required to really do it justice has it low on my list of priorities.
> Still, an idea for something to do some day. I've an acquaintance who
> is a Japanese sociologist who focuses on gender structure and
> relationships... I could consult with her about the culture factors
> perhaps...
>
Perhaps. You have to start somewhere.
> > Definitely cool that CPM linked it.
>
> Very. There's some good people there I think. They're a bit disjointed
> though, and I think it shows in the quality of their product.
>
Unfortunately, yes.
Kevin the Redneck Otaku,
Sho-i Tanaka's Alter Ego & Ghostwriter
Keeper of Juri's Rarely Seen Femme Side
UtenaCode [2.0]: U:6- F:Ju++ Shi+>:pBR D:Hi--> Na< X:****:a: 1-39++,[AM]
Jiras Corrino
>From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
>Message-id: <d5fd9b46.04080...@posting.google.com>
>
>uyat...@aol.com (Jiras Corrino) wrote in message
news:<20040806221758...@mb-m23.aol.com>...
>> >Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] U-TE-NA - the Girl, the Prince, the Bride
>> >From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
>> >Date: Mon, Jul 19, 2004 1:30 PM
>> >Message-id: <d5fd9b46.0407...@posting.google.com>
>> >
>> >"sephigirl" <seph...@inebraskasucks.com> wrote in message
>> news:<40f9c...@corp.newsgroups.com>...
>> >> Okay, DQ's right -
>> >
>> >My god!!! Is the world coming to an end??? ~_^
>> >
>> >> we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
>> >> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
>> >> object.
>> >
>> >Is there anything sacred at AFU?
>>
>> What? Is this your first day here? ^^
>
>Why do you ask snarky rhetorical questions in response to snarky
>rhetorical questions as if the first snarky rhetorical question were
>not a snarky rhetorical question?
Uhhhh, yes... I mean no... I mean, huh? ^^;;;
><snip>
>
>> >> And, is she really as strong as we like to think?
>> >
>> >I'm not sure how strong we think she is. I think she's as strong as a
>> >14 year old girl can be, and amazingly determined. She has her flaws
>> >and her weak points just like anyone else.
>> >
>> >Here's another question--Does _she_ think she's as strong as we like
>> >to think?
>>
>> I think she fears that she's not strong enough, but I also think she refuses
>> to assume that she's not strong enough.
>
>That is a very good way of putting it. A trait of many heroes,
>actually. "No one else can or will do it, so I guess I've got to try."
Why thank you... Kind of like Batman, you know, they've got no superpowers, but
they still have the will to fight for truth and justice. You know, it used to
be that Superman and his ilk were the minority - back in the Golden Age most
crime-fighters had little more than a goofy costume: Batman, Green Arrow, the
Atom, Wildcat, the Crimson Avenger, Dr. Mid-nite... Then the Silver Age rolled
around and everybody and his brother became a mutant. Ah well... ^^
><snip>
>
>> >> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into
>one
>> cute,
>> >> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick temper,
>> >> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt.
>> And
>> >> like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
>> >
>> >Could be. I don't know if she saw this, although I imagine many of the
>> >council saw themselves in her, Jury especially (which is why I think
>> >Jury actually gets so rough with her at first).
>>
>> I think so too, and I think this is a reason why she gave Utena her sword
>to
>> use in her rematch with Touga.
>
>Yes. In some ways, I wonder if it's a "reward" (for lack of a better
>word) to Utena for trying to get off her feet and get back what she
>lost/move past the betrayal--something Jury's never quite had the guts
>to do.
That's an interesting view. Maybe not so much a 'reward' as a helping hand -
Utena can beat Saionji with a broken shinnai, but against Touga she'd better be
packing genuine steel if she wants an even chance.
I know, just a little drug-related levity...
>Realistically, healthily, Utena needs to learn to make time for all
>the people she cares about. Encouraging friends to do self-destructive
>things to get attention is stupid.
>
>All I was saying was that when one person very obviously needs help,
>it's very easy to let your concern blind you to what's going on in the
>rest of your life/relationships.
But is that necessarily the best thing for Wakaba? She seems to harbor a
deep-seated inferiority complex, staying in Utena's shadow might not do her any
good, because she'll never be able to outshine Utena. A few more years of that
and she risks turning into Shiori... Perhaps the best thing for her is to be
left alone to be her own woman.
><snip>
>
>> >Manga Utena strikes me for being at once much more obviously a
>> >teenager and yet also being much more confident in herself and
>> >clear-headed about the people around her. She's not *quite* (quite,
>> >mind you) as oblivious as TV Utena, and seems to see past Touga's and
>> >Akio's lines faster than her series counterpart (but the manga is a
>> >shorter and less complex story). She also seems much more confident in
>> >her role as the prince/Anthy's friend/protector... "Don't you know
>> >what my name means? It means 'calyx,' which protects the flower until
>> >it's ready to bloom..." (or some such... I'm recalling this from
>> >memory).
>>
>> Also, she points out that Anthy's name means "flower", so it is proper
>that
>> the "calyx" should protect the "flower" when it is still a bud.
>
>This is not mentioned in the manga, but the calyx also "releases" the
>flower when it's finished its growth cycle, and then, while somewhat
>dry and bald, is left to shelter the fruit that grows after the flower
>is gone.
Quite poetic... Of course flowers and calyces ultimately whither and die,
something very much in tune with Japanese aethetics...
>This means absolutely nothing, except that I spend too much time
>thinking about rose gardening.
Well you've come to the right place... ^^
True: a very fine but very important distinction... And yes, disguising her
breasts and hiding her legs probably qualifies her as a transvestite, while the
TV version, who shows off her legs and has tailored her boy's uniform to fit
her female figure, would be simply eccentric.
>She tells Touga she wears the boy's uniform (again, a more typical
>boy's uniform than the traditional Utena outfit) "because of the
>Prince" -- to remind herself of the ideals she now wants to live
>for--as if somehow boy's clothes and acting stereotypically masculine
>would be a path to that.... and yet we also know she owns "cute"
>girlish dresses and was rather girly looking when she dated Touga. In
>the past-flashbacks, likewise, she acts more "girly" and dependent. Is
>this forced "masculinity" a means of dissociating herself from her
>past or does she believe it will make her feel less helpless, as she
>did when Jury was in the lake and then Touga died saving her?
I think both those points have validity. By relinquishing her identity as a
girl she can eliminate her painful past so that those events happened to
someone else, from her perspective. But she did so because of the helplessness
she felt during that terrible loss. It was certainly effective, she had
forgotten that Touga had ever died.
>I wonder if Utena's ultimate form--no, not the car, but her duelling
>outfit, with the long flowing hair, "masculine" jacket but then frills
>and shorts that show off the legs--is then a balance between the weak
>but emotionally cognizant "feminine" mode she'd originally left behind
>and the strong but detached "masculine" mode she'd adopted while at
>Ohtori. She can take on the positive traits of both and move toward
>the revolution--when she reconciles her feelings but still retains her
>determination to move on and become a better person, she had become
>balanced within herself. It is then that Anthy offers her
>Princeship--but the Utena also finally has the clarity of vision to
>know that is only a false reward. Since she has her memory and knows
>herself and knows what she is, not just what she was or what she
>dreams of being--she can finally realize the world they live in within
>itself is an illusion, and she feels she is now self-realized enough
>to take on the real world.
You know, my personal take on that was that it was the 'ressurrection' of the
more classically heroic TV Utena from the bitter, introverted Movie Utena... ^^
Perhaps that's silly, but it's what I always thought.
>(Anthy's identity crises are less entrenched in gender construction at
>least as they reflect upon herself, although one could interpret her
>issues with Dios/Akio--and that her "magics" created the illusion of
>Dios--reflect her views of her brother and her relationship with him
>as clouded by very fabricated, old-fashioned stereotype concept of
>male-dominator female-submissive--for her it's not how she sees
>herself but how she sees others--and she too changes when she realizes
>a woman can play an important role in her life, and *is* the kind
>protector she only "magicked" her brother into being--for her it's
>that gender/gender roles no longer become an issue.)
The interesting difference between the TV Anthy and the Movie Anthy is that TV
Anthy has a living, breathing Akio who makes her take on the role of the Rose
Bride and re-establishes his sexual and emotional dominance over her every
Saturday night. Movie Anthy, by contrast, has an Akio who is dead. She plays
the part of Rose Bride because of a guilty conscience, not because of any
machiavellian scheme by her brother. She doesn't want to forge a sword from
Utena to give to Akio, she wants Utena to take Akio's place in her life.
>There's some late-night rambling for ya! I'll have to read this in the
>morning and see if it made any sense.
It all makes sense to me. ^^|/
>> Of course, the difference between TV Utena and
>> Movie Utena is that the former's Prince is still alive, and the latter's
>is
>> dead, thus one is as optimistic as the other is pessimistic. Interestingly,
>
>> both eventually have to let go of their Princes to save the day...
>
>I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
>
>"The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
>that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
>rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
>dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society – 'women
>no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
>in society.'[5]"
Say, that's nice. Now we ought to send Ikuhara to Saudi Arabia to make some
cartoons... ^^|/
>This is from a review/analysis of the movie here:
>http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue5/charlton_review.html
>
>(I found the link at the official CPM Utena TV page--kinda cool that
>they put it there.)
That's a nice touch. ^^ I wonder if we can get that reviewer to post here... ^^
Death Quaker
> >Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] U-TE-NA - the Girl, the Prince, the Bride
> >From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
> >Date: Mon, Aug 9, 2004 10:06 PM
> >Message-id: <d5fd9b46.04080...@posting.google.com>
> >
> >uyat...@aol.com (Jiras Corrino) wrote in message
> news:<20040806221758...@mb-m23.aol.com>...
> >> >Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] U-TE-NA - the Girl, the Prince, the Bride
> >> >From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
> >> >Date: Mon, Jul 19, 2004 1:30 PM
> >> >Message-id: <d5fd9b46.0407...@posting.google.com>
> >> >
> >> >"sephigirl" <seph...@inebraskasucks.com> wrote in message
> news:<40f9c...@corp.newsgroups.com>...
<snip>
> >That is a very good way of putting it. A trait of many heroes,
> >actually. "No one else can or will do it, so I guess I've got to try."
>
> Why thank you... Kind of like Batman, you know, they've got no superpowers,
> but
> they still have the will to fight for truth and justice. You know, it used to
> be that Superman and his ilk were the minority - back in the Golden Age most
> crime-fighters had little more than a goofy costume: Batman, Green Arrow, the
> Atom, Wildcat, the Crimson Avenger, Dr. Mid-nite... Then the Silver Age rolled
> around and everybody and his brother became a mutant. Ah well... ^^
Well, for the record, I'm pretty certain Batman, Green Arrow, Wildcat,
and Doc Mid-nite are all still "normals" (not counting that Oliver
Queen has returned from the dead).
But yes, Atom obviously suffered. And Black Canary became a mutant,
and then got retconned into being the metagene-bearing daughter of her
non-metagene-bearing self.
DC still fortunately still has quite a nice arsenal of
non-superpowered "super"heros (Arsenal being one of them, I
believe...). Most of the Gotham Crew stays true to normal form, with
the exception of Black Canary (Gothamite by birth and association with
Oracle, though not a member of Team Bat). And even she still relies on
her training as a detective and her martial arts skills to get a great
deal accomplished. There are some things ear-melting, glass-shattering
sonic blasts are just not useful for.
*Anime* has trouble finding "normals" in their
superhero/sci-fi/fantasy stories. Certainly they are stock in "normal"
romance and comedy stories (although even Keitaro in Love Hina has
superhuman endurance, even if only for comedic purposes).
<snip>
Wakaba on crack is not funny. Think of the damage someone that hyper
on crack could _do_...
> >Realistically, healthily, Utena needs to learn to make time for all
> >the people she cares about. Encouraging friends to do self-destructive
> >things to get attention is stupid.
> >
> >All I was saying was that when one person very obviously needs help,
> >it's very easy to let your concern blind you to what's going on in the
> >rest of your life/relationships.
>
> But is that necessarily the best thing for Wakaba? She seems to harbor a
> deep-seated inferiority complex, staying in Utena's shadow might not do her
> any
> good, because she'll never be able to outshine Utena. A few more years of that
> and she risks turning into Shiori... Perhaps the best thing for her is to be
> left alone to be her own woman.
The question is, how do you leave her alone?
Wakaba being simply abandoned by Utena because she has to take care of
Anthy is more likely to lead Wakaba down the dreaded path of the
Mulberry Princess... "That person is on the student council and more
important than I am... Utena doesn't think I'm important and must just
acknowledge me out of pity... god I hate myself and I hate her for
pitying me..." Except I can't see Wakaba seducing Anthy to get back at
Utena. ^^
The other important note in this comparison is that Utena is not Jury.
She believes in talking out problems rather than holding them in.
Utena's problem *is* obliviousness, but when she *does* see something
is wrong, she doesn't sit back away from it just because she's afraid
to express her feelings.
If things came to the worst head--as they did during Wakaba's Black
Rose duel--it's obvious Utena can make it clear as day just how
important Wakaba is to Utena, not as a "shadow" but as a friend she
truly cares for and admires. (Shame neither Wakaba nor Utena are able
to remember that event, in a way)
Utena truly doesn't believe Wakaba is a tagalong. She really cares
about her and can make that more than evident in a way that Wakaba
isn't going to see as pity. But if other forces separate Utena from
Wakaba without giving Utena a chance to explain why, _that's_ when
Wakaba's insecurity may take over and cause her to think Utena deemed
her "unworthy."
Going back to the Shiori analogy, it's obvious that "leaving her
alone" did NOT work in the case of Shiori and Jury. Shiori had no idea
why Jury REALLY was angry, having jumped entirely to the wrong
conclusions, and it's that misconception that at least partly drove
her down the path she went. Jury wanted Shiori to leave her alone and
leave Shiori alone; she didn't want to deal with it (Jury is dealing
with feelings that Utena does not have for Wakaba, however) so she
leaves Shiori to her delusions about the situation. Shiori admits it's
her fault and tries to patch things up with Jury, but Jury still
refuses to communicate, leading to further confusion and
misunderstanding. Even when Shiori is provided the locket, she still
has to fill in the gaps herself and twists things out of proportion.
Thus a big fat mess is made.
Communication is essential in any relationship. Maybe Utena should
"leave Wakaba alone" but she has to leave it in such a way that there
is closure and still the reassurance that it isn't because Wakaba
"isn't good enough" for her.
> ><snip>
> >
> >> >Manga Utena strikes me for being at once much more obviously a
> >> >teenager and yet also being much more confident in herself and
> >> >clear-headed about the people around her. She's not *quite* (quite,
> >> >mind you) as oblivious as TV Utena, and seems to see past Touga's and
> >> >Akio's lines faster than her series counterpart (but the manga is a
> >> >shorter and less complex story). She also seems much more confident in
> >> >her role as the prince/Anthy's friend/protector... "Don't you know
> >> >what my name means? It means 'calyx,' which protects the flower until
> >> >it's ready to bloom..." (or some such... I'm recalling this from
> >> >memory).
> >>
> >> Also, she points out that Anthy's name means "flower", so it is proper
> that
> >> the "calyx" should protect the "flower" when it is still a bud.
> >
> >This is not mentioned in the manga, but the calyx also "releases" the
> >flower when it's finished its growth cycle, and then, while somewhat
> >dry and bald, is left to shelter the fruit that grows after the flower
> >is gone.
>
> Quite poetic... Of course flowers and calyces ultimately whither and die,
> something very much in tune with Japanese aethetics...
True.
OTOH, rosebushes themselves are perennial... and year-round bear their
thorns. ^^ The cycle ever continues, with all the dangers and beauty
therin...
>>>This means absolutely nothing, except that I spend too much time
>>>thinking about rose gardening.
>
>> Well you've come to the right place... ^^
AFU can give me a yard so I can grow roses? *laments apartment
life...*
Well, more just a showy tomboy. Just because you like the flexibility
of boyish/androgynous clothing doesn't mean you can't show off that
you a girl. *says the tomboy*
Not to confuse this with the tomboy femme, which is the lesbian
fashion princess who still wears pants and loves athletics. Gee, too
bad there aren't any of *those* in SKU.
Jury: *crosses arms* Stop looking at me like that.
> >She tells Touga she wears the boy's uniform (again, a more typical
> >boy's uniform than the traditional Utena outfit) "because of the
> >Prince" -- to remind herself of the ideals she now wants to live
> >for--as if somehow boy's clothes and acting stereotypically masculine
> >would be a path to that.... and yet we also know she owns "cute"
> >girlish dresses and was rather girly looking when she dated Touga. In
> >the past-flashbacks, likewise, she acts more "girly" and dependent. Is
> >this forced "masculinity" a means of dissociating herself from her
> >past or does she believe it will make her feel less helpless, as she
> >did when Jury was in the lake and then Touga died saving her?
>
> I think both those points have validity. By relinquishing her identity as a
> girl she can eliminate her painful past so that those events happened to
> someone else, from her perspective. But she did so because of the helplessness
> she felt during that terrible loss. It was certainly effective, she had
> forgotten that Touga had ever died.
*nods* See below.
> >I wonder if Utena's ultimate form--no, not the car, but her duelling
> >outfit, with the long flowing hair, "masculine" jacket but then frills
> >and shorts that show off the legs--is then a balance between the weak
> >but emotionally cognizant "feminine" mode she'd originally left behind
> >and the strong but detached "masculine" mode she'd adopted while at
> >Ohtori. She can take on the positive traits of both and move toward
> >the revolution--when she reconciles her feelings but still retains her
> >determination to move on and become a better person, she had become
> >balanced within herself. It is then that Anthy offers her
> >Princeship--but the Utena also finally has the clarity of vision to
> >know that is only a false reward. Since she has her memory and knows
> >herself and knows what she is, not just what she was or what she
> >dreams of being--she can finally realize the world they live in within
> >itself is an illusion, and she feels she is now self-realized enough
> >to take on the real world.
>
> You know, my personal take on that was that it was the 'ressurrection' of the
> more classically heroic TV Utena from the bitter, introverted Movie Utena... > ^^ Perhaps that's silly, but it's what I always thought.
I think Movie Utena still ends up being much more clear in her
self-perception than TV Utena for that to be the case.
Adding to my "balanced masculine/feminine Utena theory," she finally
remembers and accepts Touga's death in the duelling costume, showing
the unification of her two sides, where she can mourn and still be
strong enough to go on with her own path.
> >(Anthy's identity crises are less entrenched in gender construction at
> >least as they reflect upon herself, although one could interpret her
> >issues with Dios/Akio--and that her "magics" created the illusion of
> >Dios--reflect her views of her brother and her relationship with him
> >as clouded by very fabricated, old-fashioned stereotype concept of
> >male-dominator female-submissive--for her it's not how she sees
> >herself but how she sees others--and she too changes when she realizes
> >a woman can play an important role in her life, and *is* the kind
> >protector she only "magicked" her brother into being--for her it's
> >that gender/gender roles no longer become an issue.)
>
> The interesting difference between the TV Anthy and the Movie Anthy is that TV
> Anthy has a living, breathing Akio who makes her take on the role of the Rose
> Bride and re-establishes his sexual and emotional dominance over her every
> Saturday night. Movie Anthy, by contrast, has an Akio who is dead. She plays
> the part of Rose Bride because of a guilty conscience, not because of any
> machiavellian scheme by her brother. She doesn't want to forge a sword from
> Utena to give to Akio, she wants Utena to take Akio's place in her life.
Well, I think both Anthys are Rose Brides due to guilty conscience.
Akio may not be dead in the TV series, but I think Anthy believes she
is responsible for his fall from Dios, and thus allows Akio to control
her because of that. (But likewise also tries to control him because
he fails to *be* Dios at the same time.)
To me, Movie Anthy *knows* her magic "created the Prince" but yet does
not want to live in a world without one. Her being the Rose Bride,
while perhaps penance for Akio's death (I wonder if her tending the
garden where he is buried is ensuring his spirit remains "Prince" of
Ohtori), is also to help her find a "new, living Prince of Ohtori"
which is what she asks Utena to become.
It's not until Utena's refusal that Anthy realizes she doesn't need
the Prince, that the Prince is dead and rules over a world inside a
coffin, and can finally go on the journey to say goodbye to her
brother, realize the truth of their relationship, and move on with her
life (and move on riding the Lesbian Luge, no less--a lovely way to
get started! ~_^)
> >There's some late-night rambling for ya! I'll have to read this in the
> >morning and see if it made any sense.
>
> It all makes sense to me. ^^|/
Yay!
> >> Of course, the difference between TV Utena and
> >> Movie Utena is that the former's Prince is still alive, and the latter's
> is
> >> dead, thus one is as optimistic as the other is pessimistic. Interestingly,
>
> >> both eventually have to let go of their Princes to save the day...
> >
> >I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
> >
> >"The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
> >that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
> >rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
> >dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society ? 'women
> >no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
> >in society.'[5]"
>
> Say, that's nice. Now we ought to send Ikuhara to Saudi Arabia to make some
> cartoons... ^^|/
I'd have to check, but I *think* Saudi women are pretty well treated
and educated. They ain't under the Taliban after all. I could be wrong
however; I haven't read about human rights in Saudi Arabia lately and
am admittedly too lazy to do the research right now.
Certainly there are branches of Islam in the US where the women kick
butt. I used to work with a kick butt Muslim woman (not literal
butt-kicking however; it was at an organization that espouses
nonviolence, after all. ^^).
Usually where "Muslim" regimes oppress women it's for political
reasons as any (quotes because most moderate Muslims denounce their
extremist counterparts as much as moderate Christians denounce those
who kill and oppress in the name of Jesus. It's a shame that one of
the largest religions in the world only gets represented in the media
by a small group of violent extremist whackos no one would want to
call their own).
Although I also have no problem if female self-empowerment revolutions
happen anywhere and everywhere. There should be an Ikuhara for the
world. ^^|/
> >This is from a review/analysis of the movie here:
> >http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue5/charlton_review.html
> >
> >(I found the link at the official CPM Utena TV page--kinda cool that
> >they put it there.)
>
> That's a nice touch. ^^ I wonder if we can get that reviewer to post here... ^^
That would be cool.
=====
Death Quaker!
"Ikuhara for the World!"
Jiras Corrino
needs some consideration, but the other stuff I know the answers to...
><snip>
>
>> >That is a very good way of putting it. A trait of many heroes,
>> >actually. "No one else can or will do it, so I guess I've got to try."
>>
>> Why thank you... Kind of like Batman, you know, they've got no superpowers,
>
>> but
>> they still have the will to fight for truth and justice. You know, it
>used to
>> be that Superman and his ilk were the minority - back in the Golden Age
>most
>> crime-fighters had little more than a goofy costume: Batman, Green Arrow,
>the
>> Atom, Wildcat, the Crimson Avenger, Dr. Mid-nite... Then the Silver Age
>rolled
>> around and everybody and his brother became a mutant. Ah well... ^^
>
>Well, for the record, I'm pretty certain Batman, Green Arrow, Wildcat,
>and Doc Mid-nite are all still "normals" (not counting that Oliver
>Queen has returned from the dead).
Actually, when I meant 'everybody' I wasn't actually referring to them
specifically, I was referring to how Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, Alfred Pennyworth
and I think Sue Dibney and their ilk all seemed to get superpowers at one time
or other. And even Batman got a team of super-humans (the Outsiders) to back
him up during the 80s.
As for Ollie, he's just glad some CB writer was dumb enough to make Hal Jordan
evil, kill him, and then bring him back as the new Spectre, so he could
ressurrect him. God, was the Bronze Age just f*cked up or what? Superman dead,
then brought back as an energy being, Batman gets his back broken, so does
Batgirl, Robin dead, GL evil? WTF???
>But yes, Atom obviously suffered. And Black Canary became a mutant,
>and then got retconned into being the metagene-bearing daughter of her
>non-metagene-bearing self.
Now that's just what I'm talking about: Golden Age Atom was a small tough guy,
Silver Age Atom was a scientist who could shrink down to Atom-size. And Black
Canary! That is one character who's continutiy is all FUBARed... And now she's
supposed to be taking WW's place in all Pre-Crisis stories, or is that Supposed
to be Queen Hippolyta? Lousy Crisis... Red Tornado is in a similar situation:
Golden Age - inner city Momma turned crimefighter, Silver Age - robot; Psycho
Pirate: Golden Age - rogue propogandist, Silver Age - ESPer; Clayface: Golden
Age - evil actor, Silver Age - shapeshifter...
>DC still fortunately still has quite a nice arsenal of
>non-superpowered "super"heros (Arsenal being one of them, I
>believe...). Most of the Gotham Crew stays true to normal form, with
>the exception of Black Canary (Gothamite by birth and association with
>Oracle, though not a member of Team Bat). And even she still relies on
>her training as a detective and her martial arts skills to get a great
>deal accomplished. There are some things ear-melting, glass-shattering
>sonic blasts are just not useful for.
I do not dispute that DC has a fine number of non-superpower heroes, but they
are in the minority now vis-a-vis the metahumans, and once upon a time the
situation was reversed...
>*Anime* has trouble finding "normals" in their
>superhero/sci-fi/fantasy stories. Certainly they are stock in "normal"
>romance and comedy stories (although even Keitaro in Love Hina has
>superhuman endurance, even if only for comedic purposes).
Say, you've got a good point there. Perhaps that's because Japan only really
knew US's Silver Age, because during the Golden Age there was that whole war
thing going on...
<snip, for now>
>> >> Of course, the difference between TV Utena and
>> >> Movie Utena is that the former's Prince is still alive, and the latter's
>> is
>> >> dead, thus one is as optimistic as the other is pessimistic.
Interestingly,
>>
>> >> both eventually have to let go of their Princes to save the day...
>> >
>> >I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
>> >
>> >"The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
>> >that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
>> >rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
>> >dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society ? 'women
>> >no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
>> >in society.'[5]"
>>
>> Say, that's nice. Now we ought to send Ikuhara to Saudi Arabia to make
>some
>> cartoons... ^^|/
>
>I'd have to check, but I *think* Saudi women are pretty well treated
>and educated. They ain't under the Taliban after all. I could be wrong
>however; I haven't read about human rights in Saudi Arabia lately and
>am admittedly too lazy to do the research right now.
Well treated and educated? You must be thinking of pre-war Iraq. Women in Saudi
Arabia have no political or social rights, they cannot vote or drive cars, and
are under constant scrutiny by the Decency Police who inspect burqas. Saudi
Arabia was also a major financial backer of the Taliban in their pre-9/11
heyday. The human rights situation in Saudi Arabia is dismal, torture is legal,
and the preferred method of execution is public beheading...
>Certainly there are branches of Islam in the US where the women kick
>butt. I used to work with a kick butt Muslim woman (not literal
>butt-kicking however; it was at an organization that espouses
>nonviolence, after all. ^^).
I can believe it. On paper, Islam is a great religion for women (Muhammed was
an older woman's boy-toy, after all ^^). Most of the misogyny associated with
Islamic countries comes from pre-islamic tribal traditions.
>Usually where "Muslim" regimes oppress women it's for political
>reasons as any (quotes because most moderate Muslims denounce their
>extremist counterparts as much as moderate Christians denounce those
>who kill and oppress in the name of Jesus. It's a shame that one of
>the largest religions in the world only gets represented in the media
>by a small group of violent extremist whackos no one would want to
>call their own).
Wait, are you talking about Islam or Christianity? ^^
>Although I also have no problem if female self-empowerment revolutions
>happen anywhere and everywhere. There should be an Ikuhara for the
>world. ^^|/
Hear, hear! ^^
>> >This is from a review/analysis of the movie here:
>> >http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue5/charlton_review.html
>> >
>> >(I found the link at the official CPM Utena TV page--kinda cool that
>> >they put it there.)
>>
>> That's a nice touch. ^^ I wonder if we can get that reviewer to post here...
>^^
>
>That would be cool.
Sure would...
Death Quaker
> I'm going to be answering this post in two or more parts... The Utena stuff
> needs some consideration, but the other stuff I know the answers to...
Well, I look forward to you Utena comments when they come!
Don't forget Wonder Woman got replaced, her replacement died, she
became Wonder Woman again, she died and became a goddess, her mother
became Wonder Woman, got bored and decided not to be a goddess
anymore, became Wonder Woman again, while her mother went back in time
and also continued to be Wonder Woman.
As for Batgirl, on one hand it's cruel to say I'm *glad* she became
paraplegic, I think on the other she is a much much better and deeper,
self-realized character as Oracle--instead of a kid in a fake Batman
suit.
> >But yes, Atom obviously suffered. And Black Canary became a mutant,
> >and then got retconned into being the metagene-bearing daughter of her
> >non-metagene-bearing self.
>
> Now that's just what I'm talking about: Golden Age Atom was a small tough guy,
> Silver Age Atom was a scientist who could shrink down to Atom-size. And Black
> Canary! That is one character who's continutiy is all FUBARed... And now she's
> supposed to be taking WW's place in all Pre-Crisis stories,
> or is that Supposed to be Queen Hippolyta?
That is certainly Queen Hippolyta. Black Canary I and Golden Age WW
were contemporaries, but were absolutely certainly two different
people.
Polly at least does have the same powers as the original WW; the
current one is much too powerful to have been the WW of the 40s. Which
on one hand, boosting her power wasn't necessary, but OTOH she is a
damn cool character as she is.
> Lousy Crisis... Red Tornado is in a similar situation:
> Golden Age - inner city Momma turned crimefighter, Silver Age - robot; Psycho
> Pirate: Golden Age - rogue propogandist, Silver Age - ESPer; Clayface: Golden
> Age - evil actor, Silver Age - shapeshifter...
Yeah... I never could keep track of him.
> >DC still fortunately still has quite a nice arsenal of
> >non-superpowered "super"heros (Arsenal being one of them, I
> >believe...). Most of the Gotham Crew stays true to normal form, with
> >the exception of Black Canary (Gothamite by birth and association with
> >Oracle, though not a member of Team Bat). And even she still relies on
> >her training as a detective and her martial arts skills to get a great
> >deal accomplished. There are some things ear-melting, glass-shattering
> >sonic blasts are just not useful for.
>
> I do not dispute that DC has a fine number of non-superpower heroes, but they
> are in the minority now vis-a-vis the metahumans, and once upon a time the
> situation was reversed...
In the minority numerically, perhaps. But Team Bat and the other
"normals" are among some of the most famous and best-selling
characters out there.
However, I fully admit that my perceptions could be skewed by the fact
that the only comic I read regularly is Birds of Prey, which features
two normals and one slightly-meta.
> >*Anime* has trouble finding "normals" in their
> >superhero/sci-fi/fantasy stories. Certainly they are stock in "normal"
> >romance and comedy stories (although even Keitaro in Love Hina has
> >superhuman endurance, even if only for comedic purposes).
>
> Say, you've got a good point there. Perhaps that's because Japan only really
> knew US's Silver Age, because during the Golden Age there was that whole war
> thing going on...
Yeah... I have a feeling reading Golden Age WW denounce the nasty
"Japs" would not be appealing to them (as it's not appealing to me
either...).
<snip>
> >> >I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
> >> >
> >> >"The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
> >> >that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
> >> >rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
> >> >dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society ? 'women
> >> >no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
> >> >in society.'[5]"
> >>
> >> Say, that's nice. Now we ought to send Ikuhara to Saudi Arabia to make
> some
> >> cartoons... ^^|/
> >
> >I'd have to check, but I *think* Saudi women are pretty well treated
> >and educated. They ain't under the Taliban after all. I could be wrong
> >however; I haven't read about human rights in Saudi Arabia lately and
> >am admittedly too lazy to do the research right now.
>
> Well treated and educated? You must be thinking of pre-war Iraq.
I must have been.
> Women in Saudi Arabia have no political or social rights, they cannot vote or > drive cars, and are under constant scrutiny by the Decency Police who inspect > burqas. Saudi Arabia was also a major financial backer of the Taliban in
> their pre-9/11 heyday. The human rights situation in Saudi Arabia is dismal, > torture is legal, and the preferred method of execution is public beheading...
You are correct, and I am an idiot. I was terribly confused and knew I
should have looked it up before I said anything. I mixed up a
conversation I'd had with someone about human rights in the Middle
East--we were discussing US being allies with Saudi Arabia and not
with other nations, and discussing how women were treated in the
various areas of the Middle East. I had misremembered that Saudi
Arabia--because of course it's an ally with the US, how could it be a
human rights offender *rolls eyes*--was one of the better countries in
its treatment of women. It was the other way around, of course. *bangs
head against a wall several times*
> >Certainly there are branches of Islam in the US where the women kick
> >butt. I used to work with a kick butt Muslim woman (not literal
> >butt-kicking however; it was at an organization that espouses
> >nonviolence, after all. ^^).
>
> I can believe it. On paper, Islam is a great religion for women (Muhammed was
> an older woman's boy-toy, after all ^^). Most of the misogyny associated with
> Islamic countries comes from pre-islamic tribal traditions.
As it is with most cultures and religions around the world. Most
Christian misogyny in the Bible also hearkens back to pre-Christian
traditions.
> >Usually where "Muslim" regimes oppress women it's for political
> >reasons as any (quotes because most moderate Muslims denounce their
> >extremist counterparts as much as moderate Christians denounce those
> >who kill and oppress in the name of Jesus. It's a shame that one of
> >the largest religions in the world only gets represented in the media
> >by a small group of violent extremist whackos no one would want to
> >call their own).
>
> Wait, are you talking about Islam or Christianity? ^^
Yes. ^^
<snip>
=====
Death Quaker!
Jiras Corrino
>From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
>Message-id: <d5fd9b46.04082...@posting.google.com>
>
>uyat...@aol.com (Jiras Corrino) wrote in message
news:<20040827232603...@mb-m28.aol.com>...
>> I'm going to be answering this post in two or more parts... The Utena
>stuff
>> needs some consideration, but the other stuff I know the answers to...
>
>Well, I look forward to you Utena comments when they come!
Thank you. Talking about Utena takes a lot of meditation and concentration, not
like religion, politics or even comic books. ^^
Yes, I remember that... That was... pretty f*cked up right there... Remember
also that the present Hawkman is an amalgamation of Carter Hall, Shiera
Saunders and Katar Hol, meaning he's 1/3rd man, 1/3rd woman and 1/3 alien...
That era also saw most of the JSA get killed off...
There was a bit of wierdness there, the comic pronouncing "Princess Diana is
dead!" came out about the same time that the real Princess Diana died... Well,
I for one hope that comic books are prescient: evil multi-millionaire President
Lex Luthor was recently thrown out of office, I hope we get that lucky... ^^|/
>As for Batgirl, on one hand it's cruel to say I'm *glad* she became
>paraplegic, I think on the other she is a much much better and deeper,
>self-realized character as Oracle--instead of a kid in a fake Batman
>suit.
That's true, and I happen to be a big fan of the new Batgirl, Cassie Cain, but
it just seems unfair to me that big Bruce can get a new spine while Barbara
can't.
>> >But yes, Atom obviously suffered. And Black Canary became a mutant,
>> >and then got retconned into being the metagene-bearing daughter of her
>> >non-metagene-bearing self.
>>
>> Now that's just what I'm talking about: Golden Age Atom was a small tough
>guy,
>> Silver Age Atom was a scientist who could shrink down to Atom-size. And
>Black
>> Canary! That is one character who's continutiy is all FUBARed... And now
>she's
>> supposed to be taking WW's place in all Pre-Crisis stories,
>> or is that Supposed to be Queen Hippolyta?
>
>That is certainly Queen Hippolyta. Black Canary I and Golden Age WW
>were contemporaries, but were absolutely certainly two different
>people.
I was just wondering... the recent Identity Crisis #3 did a flashback to when
the Secret Society of Super-Villains switched bodies with the JLA, and there
was Black Canary in Wondy's place. Perhaps someone forgot to tell the writers
that the pre-Crisis WW stories are back in canon... Then again, that particular
story involved Earth-2, which does not exist anymore... stupid comic book
writers... >.<
>Polly at least does have the same powers as the original WW; the
>current one is much too powerful to have been the WW of the 40s. Which
>on one hand, boosting her power wasn't necessary, but OTOH she is a
>damn cool character as she is.
'Polly'? ^.^ That's a cute name for the Canary, I like it... ^__^|/ And she is
a cool character, she once took down Superwoman with her kung-fu moves alone...
^^|/
>> Lousy Crisis... Red Tornado is in a similar situation:
>> Golden Age - inner city Momma turned crimefighter, Silver Age - robot;
>Psycho
>> Pirate: Golden Age - rogue propogandist, Silver Age - ESPer; Clayface:
>Golden
>> Age - evil actor, Silver Age - shapeshifter...
>
>Yeah... I never could keep track of him.
Understandable, there were six, eventually: Basil Karlo, Matt Hagen, Preston
Payne, Sondra Fuller, Cassius Clay and, uh, some other guy... ^^;;;
>> >DC still fortunately still has quite a nice arsenal of
>> >non-superpowered "super"heros (Arsenal being one of them, I
>> >believe...). Most of the Gotham Crew stays true to normal form, with
>> >the exception of Black Canary (Gothamite by birth and association with
>> >Oracle, though not a member of Team Bat). And even she still relies on
>> >her training as a detective and her martial arts skills to get a great
>> >deal accomplished. There are some things ear-melting, glass-shattering
>> >sonic blasts are just not useful for.
>>
>> I do not dispute that DC has a fine number of non-superpower heroes, but
>they
>> are in the minority now vis-a-vis the metahumans, and once upon a time
>the
>> situation was reversed...
>
>In the minority numerically, perhaps. But Team Bat and the other
>"normals" are among some of the most famous and best-selling
>characters out there.
True, it's quality vs. quantity.
>However, I fully admit that my perceptions could be skewed by the fact
>that the only comic I read regularly is Birds of Prey, which features
>two normals and one slightly-meta.
Ah, you see, I read Teen Titans, Outsiders, JSA, and the Flash, all majority
metahuman titles.
>> >*Anime* has trouble finding "normals" in their
>> >superhero/sci-fi/fantasy stories. Certainly they are stock in "normal"
>> >romance and comedy stories (although even Keitaro in Love Hina has
>> >superhuman endurance, even if only for comedic purposes).
>>
>> Say, you've got a good point there. Perhaps that's because Japan only
>really
>> knew US's Silver Age, because during the Golden Age there was that whole
>war
>> thing going on...
>
>Yeah... I have a feeling reading Golden Age WW denounce the nasty
>"Japs" would not be appealing to them (as it's not appealing to me
>either...).
>
Ah yes, it was a simpler (read: worse) time. It's a good thing we don't do
stuff like that anymore, right? Oh... wait... *sigh* -_-;;;
><snip>
>> >> >I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
>> >> >
>> >> >"The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
>> >> >that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
>> >> >rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
>> >> >dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society ? 'women
>> >> >no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
>> >> >in society.'[5]"
>> >>
>> >> Say, that's nice. Now we ought to send Ikuhara to Saudi Arabia to make
>> some
>> >> cartoons... ^^|/
>> >
>> >I'd have to check, but I *think* Saudi women are pretty well treated
>> >and educated. They ain't under the Taliban after all. I could be wrong
>> >however; I haven't read about human rights in Saudi Arabia lately and
>> >am admittedly too lazy to do the research right now.
>>
>> Well treated and educated? You must be thinking of pre-war Iraq.
>
>I must have been.
The population of boys and girls in schools stood at about 50/50, not bad for a
region where most men consider women property. Somehow, I doubt Moqtada al-Sadr
or Ali al-Sistani are big fans of the ERA.
>> Women in Saudi Arabia have no political or social rights, they cannot
>vote or > drive cars, and are under constant scrutiny by the Decency Police
>who inspect > burqas. Saudi Arabia was also a major financial backer of
>the Taliban in
>> their pre-9/11 heyday. The human rights situation in Saudi Arabia is dismal,
>> torture is legal, and the preferred method of execution is public
beheading...
>
>You are correct, and I am an idiot. I was terribly confused and knew I
>should have looked it up before I said anything. I mixed up a
>conversation I'd had with someone about human rights in the Middle
>East--we were discussing US being allies with Saudi Arabia and not
>with other nations, and discussing how women were treated in the
>various areas of the Middle East. I had misremembered that Saudi
>Arabia--because of course it's an ally with the US, how could it be a
>human rights offender *rolls eyes*--was one of the better countries in
>its treatment of women. It was the other way around, of course. *bangs
>head against a wall several times*
No, please don't beat yourself up. We all love our country and we'd like to
think that we have a high standard for countries we call friends, unfortunately
that's wrong. We seem to have backed more than our share of thugs in our
history: Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega, Shah Mohammed Reza, Antonio Somoza,
Ferdinand Marcos, Augusto Pinochet, Jonas Sambivi, the Diem Brothers, the
Contras and Fulgencio Batista, and of course the al-Saud family are just the
latest in the line, although probably richer. Just remember, I love my country
for what it could be, not for what it is...
>> >Certainly there are branches of Islam in the US where the women kick
>> >butt. I used to work with a kick butt Muslim woman (not literal
>> >butt-kicking however; it was at an organization that espouses
>> >nonviolence, after all. ^^).
>>
>> I can believe it. On paper, Islam is a great religion for women (Muhammed
>was
>> an older woman's boy-toy, after all ^^). Most of the misogyny associated
>with
>> Islamic countries comes from pre-islamic tribal traditions.
>
>As it is with most cultures and religions around the world. Most
>Christian misogyny in the Bible also hearkens back to pre-Christian
>traditions.
Just don't tell that to the Promise Keepers. ^^
>> >Usually where "Muslim" regimes oppress women it's for political
>> >reasons as any (quotes because most moderate Muslims denounce their
>> >extremist counterparts as much as moderate Christians denounce those
>> >who kill and oppress in the name of Jesus. It's a shame that one of
>> >the largest religions in the world only gets represented in the media
>> >by a small group of violent extremist whackos no one would want to
>> >call their own).
>>
>> Wait, are you talking about Islam or Christianity? ^^
>
>Yes. ^^
Good answer! ^^|/
Death Quaker
> >Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] U-TE-NA - the Girl, the Prince, the Bride
> >From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
> >Date: Sun, Aug 29, 2004 6:59 PM
> >Message-id: <d5fd9b46.04082...@posting.google.com>
> >
> >uyat...@aol.com (Jiras Corrino) wrote in message
> news:<20040827232603...@mb-m28.aol.com>...
> >> I'm going to be answering this post in two or more parts... The Utena
> stuff
> >> needs some consideration, but the other stuff I know the answers to...
> >
> >Well, I look forward to you Utena comments when they come!
>
> Thank you. Talking about Utena takes a lot of meditation and concentration,
> not like religion, politics or even comic books. ^^
*lol* So true...
<snip>
>>> As for Ollie, he's just glad some CB writer was dumb enough to
make Hal
>>> Jordan evil, kill him, and then bring him back as the new Spectre,
so he >>> could ressurrect him. God, was the Bronze Age just f*cked up
or what?
>>> Superman dead, then brought back as an energy being, Batman gets
his back
>>> broken, so does Batgirl, Robin dead, GL evil? WTF???
> >
> >Don't forget Wonder Woman got replaced, her replacement died, she
> >became Wonder Woman again, she died and became a goddess, her mother
> >became Wonder Woman, got bored and decided not to be a goddess
> >anymore, became Wonder Woman again, while her mother went back in time
> >and also continued to be Wonder Woman.
>
> Yes, I remember that... That was... pretty f*cked up right there... Remember
> also that the present Hawkman is an amalgamation of Carter Hall, Shiera
> Saunders and Katar Hol, meaning he's 1/3rd man, 1/3rd woman and 1/3 alien...
> That era also saw most of the JSA get killed off...
I wasn't aware of that but oy...
> There was a bit of wierdness there, the comic pronouncing "Princess Diana is
> dead!" came out about the same time that the real Princess Diana died...
WW has been strangely and badly prophetic in the past... IIRC, in Sept
2001 the issue planned to come out in the middle of the month featured
an airship crashing into a bunch of skyscrapers in New York City...
After 9/11, they decided to delay the release of that one, and change
some of the art. But it was weird.
> Well, I for one hope that comic books are prescient: evil multi-millionaire
> President Lex Luthor was recently thrown out of office, I hope we get that
> lucky... ^^|/
You know what's sad? I'd rather have Lex Luthor as president. I'd at
least have confidence in him that he knows what he's doing, and fully
understands the consequences of his actions and weighs all outcomes
before diving into something. I unfortunately cannot invest that same
confidence in George W. Bush.
Oh wait, we do have Lex Luthor as president. He just gained weight and
changed his name to Cheney....
> >As for Batgirl, on one hand it's cruel to say I'm *glad* she became
> >paraplegic, I think on the other she is a much much better and deeper,
> >self-realized character as Oracle--instead of a kid in a fake Batman
> >suit.
>
> That's true, and I happen to be a big fan of the new Batgirl, Cassie Cain, but
> it just seems unfair to me that big Bruce can get a new spine while Barbara
> can't.
Bruce I believe offered to put a great deal of money into getting
Barbara her legs again. She refused. I did not see the actual
conversation--but she felt that millions of people who don't have
millionaire/vigilante friends have to learn to live with their
disability, and she felt she did not want to seek a "cure" until there
was one more available for everyone. More to the point I think she
felt it unfair that there are people who need "medical donations" far
more than she did, so she shouldn't take advantage of it.
She also refused a trip into Ra's al Ghul's ressurrection vat (well,
it was the choice between her and Canary, who was fatally injured at
the time... Canary got thrown in instead, and got her lost-Canary Cry
back in addition to not dying).
It's perhaps an irrational and stubbornly proud decision, but that's
Babs. She wanted to take what life handed her and deal with it,
instead of find an easy way out. Needless to say she's made more than
the best of it. Paraplegic or no, she's not someone I'd want to meet
in a dark alley, between her mastery of escrima and the giant tazer
built into her chair.
> >> >But yes, Atom obviously suffered. And Black Canary became a mutant,
> >> >and then got retconned into being the metagene-bearing daughter of her
> >> >non-metagene-bearing self.
> >>
> >> Now that's just what I'm talking about: Golden Age Atom was a small tough
> guy,
> >> Silver Age Atom was a scientist who could shrink down to Atom-size. And
> Black
> >> Canary! That is one character who's continutiy is all FUBARed... And now
> she's
> >> supposed to be taking WW's place in all Pre-Crisis stories,
> >> or is that Supposed to be Queen Hippolyta?
> >
> >That is certainly Queen Hippolyta. Black Canary I and Golden Age WW
> >were contemporaries, but were absolutely certainly two different
> >people.
>
> I was just wondering... the recent Identity Crisis #3 did a flashback to when
> the Secret Society of Super-Villains switched bodies with the JLA, and there
> was Black Canary in Wondy's place.
In Wondy's Place? Are you sure? Black Canary was a founder of the JLA
and was a member before Wonder Woman ever joined. I'm fairly certain
she was supposed to be there.
> Perhaps someone forgot to tell the writers
> that the pre-Crisis WW stories are back in canon... Then again, that
> particular story involved Earth-2, which does not exist anymore... stupid
> comic book writers... >.<
Oh for god's sake. You know, I don't agree with everything they did in
Crisis, but they did do it for a reason. The multiple earths stuff was
becoming a big mess--they got rid of them, now they need to keep them
out!
> >Polly at least does have the same powers as the original WW; the
> >current one is much too powerful to have been the WW of the 40s. Which
> >on one hand, boosting her power wasn't necessary, but OTOH she is a
> >damn cool character as she is.
>
> 'Polly'? ^.^ That's a cute name for the Canary, I like it... ^__^|/ And she is
> a cool character, she once took down Superwoman with her kung-fu moves alone...
> ^^|/
"Polly" is Hippolyta's nickname--Queen of the Amazons, not Black
Canary. It's better than calling her "Hippie" or "Hippo" I guess.
Both Black Canarys are named Dinah Lance.
<snip>
> >> >DC still fortunately still has quite a nice arsenal of
> >> >non-superpowered "super"heros (Arsenal being one of them, I
> >> >believe...). Most of the Gotham Crew stays true to normal form, with
> >> >the exception of Black Canary (Gothamite by birth and association with
> >> >Oracle, though not a member of Team Bat). And even she still relies on
> >> >her training as a detective and her martial arts skills to get a great
> >> >deal accomplished. There are some things ear-melting, glass-shattering
> >> >sonic blasts are just not useful for.
> >>
> >> I do not dispute that DC has a fine number of non-superpower heroes, but
> they
> >> are in the minority now vis-a-vis the metahumans, and once upon a time
> the
> >> situation was reversed...
> >
> >In the minority numerically, perhaps. But Team Bat and the other
> >"normals" are among some of the most famous and best-selling
> >characters out there.
>
> True, it's quality vs. quantity.
>
> >However, I fully admit that my perceptions could be skewed by the fact
> >that the only comic I read regularly is Birds of Prey, which features
> >two normals and one slightly-meta.
>
> Ah, you see, I read Teen Titans, Outsiders, JSA, and the Flash, all majority
> metahuman titles.
Ah. I pick up Wonder Woman and JLA from time to time, and that's about
it for the metahumans.
And Wonder Woman technically is not a metahuman. She's merely a
human-soul-imbued clay statue given life and power by the Greek gods.
Which is of course _much_ more normal than having a metagene. ~_^
<snip>
> >> >> >I found this was an interesting quote from Ikuhara regarding this:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"The director of Utena, Kunihiko Ikuhara, echoes this when he states
> >> >> >that the reason that the female characters turn to each other,
> >> >> >rejecting their failed princes, reflects Japanese girls'
> >> >> >dissatisfaction with their position in contemporary society ? 'women
> >> >> >no longer wish to be subordinate. Women are asserting their position
> >> >> >in society.'[5]"
> >> >>
> >> >> Say, that's nice. Now we ought to send Ikuhara to Saudi Arabia to make
> some
> >> >> cartoons... ^^|/
> >> >
> >> >I'd have to check, but I *think* Saudi women are pretty well treated
> >> >and educated. They ain't under the Taliban after all. I could be wrong
> >> >however; I haven't read about human rights in Saudi Arabia lately and
> >> >am admittedly too lazy to do the research right now.
> >>
> >> Well treated and educated? You must be thinking of pre-war Iraq.
> >
> >I must have been.
>
> The population of boys and girls in schools stood at about 50/50, not bad for > a region where most men consider women property. Somehow, I doubt Moqtada al-> Sadr or Ali al-Sistani are big fans of the ERA.
Probably not.
I had a dream a former Iraqi business woman was blaming me for the war
on Iraq once.
> >> Women in Saudi Arabia have no political or social rights, they cannot
> >vote or > drive cars, and are under constant scrutiny by the Decency Police
> >who inspect > burqas. Saudi Arabia was also a major financial backer of
> >the Taliban in
> >> their pre-9/11 heyday. The human rights situation in Saudi Arabia is dismal,
> >> torture is legal, and the preferred method of execution is public
> beheading...
> >
> >You are correct, and I am an idiot. I was terribly confused and knew I
> >should have looked it up before I said anything. I mixed up a
> >conversation I'd had with someone about human rights in the Middle
> >East--we were discussing US being allies with Saudi Arabia and not
> >with other nations, and discussing how women were treated in the
> >various areas of the Middle East. I had misremembered that Saudi
> >Arabia--because of course it's an ally with the US, how could it be a
> >human rights offender *rolls eyes*--was one of the better countries in
> >its treatment of women. It was the other way around, of course. *bangs
> >head against a wall several times*
>
> No, please don't beat yourself up. We all love our country and we'd like to
> think that we have a high standard for countries we call friends,
> unfortunately that's wrong.
I know. As an example, several years ago I listened to a rabbi weep as
she recounted her visit to Gaza and the West Bank, and saw exactly the
human rights atrocities that the Israeli government commit against the
Palestinians. She was utterly devastated for multiple reasons--that
not only her religious community feels obligated to support a
government that commits such terror--because they are kept ignorant
about what goes on there--but that the United States backs them as
well.
(Now mind you, as a sidenote, I don't think the human rights crimes
that Israel commits makes the Palestinian extremist terrorists in the
right. I think both extreme sides are in the wrong, and I mourn the
millions of innocent civilians, both Israeli and Palestinians, that
get constantly caught in the crossfire. Personally I think we need to
let both groups to their own devices, and let the extremists destroy
each other or the middle-of-the-road laypeople finally get sick of it
all and rise up against them both. By getting involved we only add to
the partisan nonsense that helps keep the people divided and hating
each other.)
> We seem to have backed more than our share of thugs in our
> history: Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega, Shah Mohammed Reza, Antonio Somoza,
> Ferdinand Marcos, Augusto Pinochet, Jonas Sambivi, the Diem Brothers, the
> Contras and Fulgencio Batista, and of course the al-Saud family are just the
> latest in the line, although probably richer. Just remember, I love my country
> for what it could be, not for what it is...
I believe in the Constitution and the freedoms our nation espouses. I
believe that one day we will live up to our ideals, but that day has
not come yet. It can though, if we try, and if we take action.
Democracy only works if you participate, though. (I am not talking
about the upcoming election per se, but speaking in a broader, more
general sense)
<snip>
> >> >Usually where "Muslim" regimes oppress women it's for political
> >> >reasons as any (quotes because most moderate Muslims denounce their
> >> >extremist counterparts as much as moderate Christians denounce those
> >> >who kill and oppress in the name of Jesus. It's a shame that one of
> >> >the largest religions in the world only gets represented in the media
> >> >by a small group of violent extremist whackos no one would want to
> >> >call their own).
> >>
> >> Wait, are you talking about Islam or Christianity? ^^
> >
> >Yes. ^^
>
> Good answer! ^^|/
Thank you. ^^
Jiras Corrino
>From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
>Message-id: <d5fd9b46.04083...@posting.google.com>
That was all part of Zero Hour, the Wannabe Crisis...
>> There was a bit of wierdness there, the comic pronouncing "Princess Diana
>is
>> dead!" came out about the same time that the real Princess Diana died...
>
>
>WW has been strangely and badly prophetic in the past... IIRC, in Sept
>2001 the issue planned to come out in the middle of the month featured
>an airship crashing into a bunch of skyscrapers in New York City...
>
>After 9/11, they decided to delay the release of that one, and change
>some of the art. But it was weird.
I remember coming across a website that listed several events prognosticated by
comic books, but that was months ago and I forget where it is...
>> Well, I for one hope that comic books are prescient: evil multi-millionaire
>
>> President Lex Luthor was recently thrown out of office, I hope we get
>that
>> lucky... ^^|/
>
>You know what's sad? I'd rather have Lex Luthor as president. I'd at
>least have confidence in him that he knows what he's doing, and fully
>understands the consequences of his actions and weighs all outcomes
>before diving into something. I unfortunately cannot invest that same
>confidence in George W. Bush.
>
>Oh wait, we do have Lex Luthor as president. He just gained weight and
>changed his name to Cheney....
I guess that would make Bush the Joker (it fits, he was a frat boy). The
Anti-World's Finest Team!
>> >As for Batgirl, on one hand it's cruel to say I'm *glad* she became
>> >paraplegic, I think on the other she is a much much better and deeper,
>> >self-realized character as Oracle--instead of a kid in a fake Batman
>> >suit.
>>
>> That's true, and I happen to be a big fan of the new Batgirl, Cassie Cain,
>but
>> it just seems unfair to me that big Bruce can get a new spine while Barbara
>> can't.
>
>Bruce I believe offered to put a great deal of money into getting
>Barbara her legs again. She refused. I did not see the actual
>conversation--but she felt that millions of people who don't have
>millionaire/vigilante friends have to learn to live with their
>disability, and she felt she did not want to seek a "cure" until there
>was one more available for everyone. More to the point I think she
>felt it unfair that there are people who need "medical donations" far
>more than she did, so she shouldn't take advantage of it.
Well, that's certainly nice to hear and uplifting too, but the whole sticky
situation would have been avoided had they not gone with the boneheaded notion
of trying to replace Bruce as Bat in the first place.
>She also refused a trip into Ra's al Ghul's ressurrection vat (well,
>it was the choice between her and Canary, who was fatally injured at
>the time... Canary got thrown in instead, and got her lost-Canary Cry
>back in addition to not dying).
That's good to hear about BC. Didn't she lose her canary-cry when she was
assaulted and tortured by one of Green Arrow's enemies?
>It's perhaps an irrational and stubbornly proud decision, but that's
>Babs. She wanted to take what life handed her and deal with it,
>instead of find an easy way out. Needless to say she's made more than
>the best of it. Paraplegic or no, she's not someone I'd want to meet
>in a dark alley, between her mastery of escrima and the giant tazer
>built into her chair.
Cool, she's the DCU's answer to Daredevil... ^^
BC was a founder of the JLA in retcon only. Wonder Woman was one of the
original seven, along with Superman, Batman, GL, Flash, Aquaman and Martian
Manhunter. BC was one of the earlier new recruits to the League, just behind GA
and Atom, IIRC. At any rate, I know the details of the comic in question:
Wizard, Floronic Man, Blockbuster, Professor Zoom and Star Sapphire switch into
the bodies of Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Green Lantern and Zatanna
respectively (yes, Floronic Man was in a woman's body - kinky!).
>> Perhaps someone forgot to tell the writers
>> that the pre-Crisis WW stories are back in canon... Then again, that
>> particular story involved Earth-2, which does not exist anymore... stupid
>
>> comic book writers... >.<
>
>Oh for god's sake. You know, I don't agree with everything they did in
>Crisis, but they did do it for a reason. The multiple earths stuff was
>becoming a big mess--they got rid of them, now they need to keep them
>out!
Interestingly enough, they have ressurected Earth-2 for the new Crime
Syndicate, essentially making it the new Earth-3... ^^ Oh, and they brought
back Kara Zor-El, too! ^^|/
>> >Polly at least does have the same powers as the original WW; the
>> >current one is much too powerful to have been the WW of the 40s. Which
>> >on one hand, boosting her power wasn't necessary, but OTOH she is a
>> >damn cool character as she is.
>>
>> 'Polly'? ^.^ That's a cute name for the Canary, I like it... ^__^|/ And
>she is
>> a cool character, she once took down Superwoman with her kung-fu moves
>alone...
>> ^^|/
>
>"Polly" is Hippolyta's nickname--Queen of the Amazons, not Black
>Canary. It's better than calling her "Hippie" or "Hippo" I guess.
"Polly" is also a bird's name...
>Both Black Canarys are named Dinah Lance.
Yes, I know... it's only natural, considering that they used to be the same
person... ^^
Or being a human-looking alien orphan who was raised by a farmer and his wife
from Kansas who used to be dead but aren't anymore... ^^;;;
I guess that's what it means to be an American... ^^;
I know what you mean, and it's worse than you think... There are many
conservative Christian organizations who funnel money to Israeli settlers,
because they believe that Israel is part of end-times prophecy. They see peace
in the Middle East as thwarting the will of God
Jiras Corrino
>I know. As an example, several years ago I listened to a rabbi weep as
>she recounted her visit to Gaza and the West Bank, and saw exactly the
>human rights atrocities that the Israeli government commit against the
>Palestinians. She was utterly devastated for multiple reasons--that
>not only her religious community feels obligated to support a
>government that commits such terror--because they are kept ignorant
>about what goes on there--but that the United States backs them as
>well.
>
>(Now mind you, as a sidenote, I don't think the human rights crimes
>that Israel commits makes the Palestinian extremist terrorists in the
>right. I think both extreme sides are in the wrong, and I mourn the
>millions of innocent civilians, both Israeli and Palestinians, that
>get constantly caught in the crossfire. Personally I think we need to
>let both groups to their own devices, and let the extremists destroy
>each other or the middle-of-the-road laypeople finally get sick of it
>all and rise up against them both. By getting involved we only add to
>the partisan nonsense that helps keep the people divided and hating
>each other.)
As I was saying, there are some Conservative Christian groups who fund Israeli
settlers, but the catch is that they do so in the belief that they will help
set off Armageddon, leading to the second coming of Christ. The Jews,
meanwhile, will mostly be killed right off the bat, and the survivors will
either accept Christ or be cast into Hell. Someone ought to tell the Israelis
that people who think that you're going to hell are not your friends.
>> We seem to have backed more than our share of thugs in our
>> history: Saddam Hussein, Manuel Noriega, Shah Mohammed Reza, Antonio Somoza,
>> Ferdinand Marcos, Augusto Pinochet, Jonas Sambivi, the Diem Brothers,
>the
>> Contras and Fulgencio Batista, and of course the al-Saud family are just
>the
>> latest in the line, although probably richer. Just remember, I love my
>country
>> for what it could be, not for what it is...
>
>I believe in the Constitution and the freedoms our nation espouses. I
>believe that one day we will live up to our ideals, but that day has
>not come yet. It can though, if we try, and if we take action.
>Democracy only works if you participate, though. (I am not talking
>about the upcoming election per se, but speaking in a broader, more
>general sense)
You got that right. Apathy is the midwife of Tyranny.
><snip>
>
>> >> >Usually where "Muslim" regimes oppress women it's for political
>> >> >reasons as any (quotes because most moderate Muslims denounce their
>> >> >extremist counterparts as much as moderate Christians denounce those
>> >> >who kill and oppress in the name of Jesus. It's a shame that one of
>> >> >the largest religions in the world only gets represented in the media
>> >> >by a small group of violent extremist whackos no one would want to
>> >> >call their own).
>> >>
>> >> Wait, are you talking about Islam or Christianity? ^^
>> >
>> >Yes. ^^
>>
>> Good answer! ^^|/
>
>Thank you. ^^
You're welcome! ^^
Jiras Corrino
>Date: Tue, Aug 17, 2004 7:06 PM
>Message-id: <gcwUc.219231$OB3.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>
>"Death Quaker" <death...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:d5fd9b46.04080...@posting.google.com...
><snip>
>> > >> Okay, DQ's right -
>> > >
>> > >My god!!! Is the world coming to an end??? ~_^
>> > >
>> > >> we never really discuss our intrepid heroine - I think
>> > >> it's a given we all like her, but do we? And, she's sort of a sacred
>> > >> object.
>> > >
>> > >Is there anything sacred at AFU?
>> >
>> > What? Is this your first day here? ^^
>>
>> Why do you ask snarky rhetorical questions in response to snarky
>> rhetorical questions as if the first snarky rhetorical question were
>> not a snarky rhetorical question?
>>
>"He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases." (HHO25%K)
>I'm guilty of it myself on occasion; it's one way us social cripples make
>conversation.
I couldn't have put it better myself. ^^|/
>> <snip>
>>
>> > >> Your opinion - I've always seen her as all the Council rolled into
>one
>> > cute,
>> > >> little pink-haired girl - she has Miki's naivete, Saionji's quick
>temper,
>> > >> Juri's protectiveness, and Touga's ego mixed with broody, self-doubt.
>> > And like all of them - she has a sense of honor.
>> > >
>> > >Could be. I don't know if she saw this, although I imagine many of
>the
>> > >council saw themselves in her, Jury especially (which is why I think
>> > >Jury actually gets so rough with her at first).
>> >
>> > I think so too, and I think this is a reason why she gave Utena her
>sword to
>> > use in her rematch with Touga.
>>
>> Yes. In some ways, I wonder if it's a "reward" (for lack of a better
>> word) to Utena for trying to get off her feet and get back what she
>> lost/move past the betrayal--something Jury's never quite had the guts
>> to do.
>>
>It's certainly plausible. There's certainly overtones of regret and missed
>opportunity in the Juri/Utena relationship.
That is certainly a valid assessment. I think Juri might see a bit of herself
in the younger woman, but of course since she hates herself... the relationship
got off on kind of the wrong foot.
Buffy? Yes, I can see how someone could write a term paper on it. It was
supposed to have been really well written - although I cannot speak from
personal experience. And to think, that TV series was based on a bottom of the
B-movie barrel bomb-turned cult classic...
Jiras Corrino
>From: death...@hotmail.com (Death Quaker)
>Message-id: <d5fd9b46.04082...@posting.google.com>
Here, at last, is my second response to DQ's old post...
<snip, stuff already adressed>
Yes, she'd bust up all those stained-glass windows, perhaps decimate an entire
phalanx of bishounen...
>> >Realistically, healthily, Utena needs to learn to make time for all
>> >the people she cares about. Encouraging friends to do self-destructive
>> >things to get attention is stupid.
>> >
>> >All I was saying was that when one person very obviously needs help,
>> >it's very easy to let your concern blind you to what's going on in the
>> >rest of your life/relationships.
>>
>> But is that necessarily the best thing for Wakaba? She seems to harbor
>a
>> deep-seated inferiority complex, staying in Utena's shadow might not do
>her
>> any
>> good, because she'll never be able to outshine Utena. A few more years
>of that
>> and she risks turning into Shiori... Perhaps the best thing for her is
>to be
>> left alone to be her own woman.
>
>The question is, how do you leave her alone?
>
>Wakaba being simply abandoned by Utena because she has to take care of
>Anthy is more likely to lead Wakaba down the dreaded path of the
>Mulberry Princess... "That person is on the student council and more
>important than I am... Utena doesn't think I'm important and must just
>acknowledge me out of pity... god I hate myself and I hate her for
>pitying me..." Except I can't see Wakaba seducing Anthy to get back at
>Utena. ^^
Mulberry Princess? I've never heard Shiori referred to that way. ^^ Beats the
hell out of "goat". ^^ Still, even if this is a possibility, I think the way
events unfolded in the series point to something different. In the very end of
the series, after Utena was gone, the now Utena-sama-less Wakaba didn't
dissolve into a quivering mass of jelly with nobody around for her to fangirl.
She seemed to be doing quite well for herself, with Mr. Onions on the side and
even a fangirl of her own. Without some larger-than-life individual to orbit
around, she seemed to have actually become her own woman - she could really
teach Nanami, Kozue and Shiori a few lessons on how to let go and get on with
one's life.
>The other important note in this comparison is that Utena is not Jury.
>She believes in talking out problems rather than holding them in.
>Utena's problem *is* obliviousness, but when she *does* see something
>is wrong, she doesn't sit back away from it just because she's afraid
>to express her feelings.
Well, the holding in seemed to be all coming from Wakaba's quarter, if her
extremely anguished session with Mikage is any indication. So there -is- a
level of miscommunication in that relationship as well (notice that Wakaba
didn't tell her best friend that she was harboring the fugitive
Vice-President). And Utena, oblivious as she is, doesn't know anything about
Wakaba that Wakaba doesn't tell her.
>If things came to the worst head--as they did during Wakaba's Black
>Rose duel--it's obvious Utena can make it clear as day just how
>important Wakaba is to Utena, not as a "shadow" but as a friend she
>truly cares for and admires. (Shame neither Wakaba nor Utena are able
>to remember that event, in a way)
I hate dream episodes. They're such a freakin' cop out - an entire season of
Dallas, the last season of Roseanne, the entire St. Elsewhere series. I liked
the end of Newheart tho', that was damn clever, and the 'Sting' episode of
Futurama. But an entire season of character development tossed in the
incinerator like some random prized possession of Saionji's? Phooey!
>Utena truly doesn't believe Wakaba is a tagalong. She really cares
>about her and can make that more than evident in a way that Wakaba
>isn't going to see as pity. But if other forces separate Utena from
>Wakaba without giving Utena a chance to explain why, _that's_ when
>Wakaba's insecurity may take over and cause her to think Utena deemed
>her "unworthy."
Well, the relationship is what it is, despite what the participants think...
But as for the rest, I think I covered that above.
>Going back to the Shiori analogy, it's obvious that "leaving her
>alone" did NOT work in the case of Shiori and Jury. Shiori had no idea
>why Jury REALLY was angry, having jumped entirely to the wrong
>conclusions, and it's that misconception that at least partly drove
>her down the path she went. Jury wanted Shiori to leave her alone and
>leave Shiori alone; she didn't want to deal with it (Jury is dealing
>with feelings that Utena does not have for Wakaba, however) so she
>leaves Shiori to her delusions about the situation. Shiori admits it's
>her fault and tries to patch things up with Jury, but Jury still
>refuses to communicate, leading to further confusion and
>misunderstanding. Even when Shiori is provided the locket, she still
>has to fill in the gaps herself and twists things out of proportion.
>Thus a big fat mess is made.
Well, the leaving alone thing didn't work because bad blood had already started
to seep into the relationship, so the seperation caused things to fester. With
Wakaba's memory of her duel wiped even before the big 'reset', there was no
analogous situation between herself and Utena, so something similar is not
likely to develop (and didn't).
>Communication is essential in any relationship. Maybe Utena should
>"leave Wakaba alone" but she has to leave it in such a way that there
>is closure and still the reassurance that it isn't because Wakaba
>"isn't good enough" for her.
But I don't think that Wakaba necessarily would feel that way - remember,
Wakaba got pissed at Anthy for stealing *Saionji*, not Utena. I don't think
Wakaba would get an 'unworthy' vibe from Utena, unless Utena did something
overt like tell Wakaba she was 'dumping' her. Sometime friends just loose
touch, and before you know it you are out of each other's lives. It happens,
I've seen it happen, and that's kind of what happened to U&W - Utena started
spending more time in the Tower than in the student body with Wakaba. When you
think about it, Akio was the one who really took Utena away from Wakaba, rather
than Anthy... Anthy seemed fine with sharing.
Very poetic... ^^
>>>>This means absolutely nothing, except that I spend too much time
>>>>thinking about rose gardening.
>>
>>> Well you've come to the right place... ^^
>
>AFU can give me a yard so I can grow roses? *laments apartment
>life...*
That certainly sounds like a good idea. ^^
Well, in conformity-conscious Japan tomboyishness would be considered an
eccentricity. ^^
>Not to confuse this with the tomboy femme, which is the lesbian
>fashion princess who still wears pants and loves athletics. Gee, too
>bad there aren't any of *those* in SKU.
>
>Jury: *crosses arms* Stop looking at me like that.
Aha, so that's what you call it. ^^ She's a real fashion plate tho', isn't she?
^^ She's got more fashion sense in one little finger than I have in my whole
big, ugly body. ^^;;;
You think so? How do you mean?
>Adding to my "balanced masculine/feminine Utena theory," she finally
>remembers and accepts Touga's death in the duelling costume, showing
>the unification of her two sides, where she can mourn and still be
>strong enough to go on with her own path.
An interesting interpretation... However, she adopted the costume long before
she learned the truth.
True, although in the TV version Anthy's guilt is balanced by Akio's
willingness to use that guilt to his own ends. In the movie, Akio is more or
less the manifestation of Anthy's Id, so instead of her guilt feeding someone
else, it becomes self-devouring, like a snake eating its own tail...
>To me, Movie Anthy *knows* her magic "created the Prince" but yet does
>not want to live in a world without one. Her being the Rose Bride,
>while perhaps penance for Akio's death (I wonder if her tending the
>garden where he is buried is ensuring his spirit remains "Prince" of
>Ohtori), is also to help her find a "new, living Prince of Ohtori"
>which is what she asks Utena to become.
Sounds good to me, this is kind of what I was trying to say above...
>It's not until Utena's refusal that Anthy realizes she doesn't need
>the Prince, that the Prince is dead and rules over a world inside a
>coffin, and can finally go on the journey to say goodbye to her
>brother, realize the truth of their relationship, and move on with her
>life (and move on riding the Lesbian Luge, no less--a lovely way to
>get started! ~_^)
Ahh, the Luge. Besides being just a wonderfully gratuitous truckload of
fanservice and yuri goodness, it's also very symbolic (I love the arts: "It's
not porn, it's symbolic!") of how she and Utena have stripped away all lies and
pretense - no princely tunics nor bridal gowns - and are ready to face the
world as just themselves and on their own terms. (Beats driving into a canyon,
baka Thelma and Louise. ^^) Plus, some gas station attendant is in for a real
treat... ^^|/
>> >There's some late-night rambling for ya! I'll have to read this in the
>> >morning and see if it made any sense.
>>
>> It all makes sense to me. ^^|/
>
>Yay!
^^|/ Sorry for the delay, I just needed the necessary time to come up with
stuff...
<snip political goodies>