A Request for Politeness
Steuard Jensen
reputation, and simple human decency, so I figure I'll post it anyway.
Listen or not as you see fit, and I ask in advance that at least all
_posted_ replies be reasonably polite. If you've got something to say
that might end up raising anger on the groups, please say it, but say
it to me in email. I'll try to find a way to post a summary of any
and all such emailed replies that I don't feel would cause substantial
harm.
I'm pretty sure that our beloved newsgroups have a mixed reputation
among other Tolkien fans online: after years of near-constant flames
(for whatever reason; the cause is utterly unimportant), quite a few
people clearly got sick of the groups and left (perhaps without even
trying to participate). I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a good
many knowledgeable and decent people haven't even bothered to visit us
here because most of what they've heard is that we're a nasty croud of
flamers.
I think they're missing out on some things: we're one of the very
oldest communities of Tolkien fans and scholars online, and we've
developed a very substantial body of knowledge over the years (to say
nothing of a sense of community that actually survived through that
nasty period). We're clearly missing out, too: good, interesting,
intelligent people who avoid the newsgroups because of their
flame-ridden reputation end up not adding their insights to our ideas
or their personalities to our community. It's a bad situation, and
one that I think can only change with time (I haven't really thought
about the possibility of a campaign of evangelism... maybe it's worth
considering :) ).
Given that, I'm quite dismayed to hear that some person (or persons)
from the groups is actually going out and carrying the flames that
used to occur here to other forums (and making explicit references to
history on the newsgroups in doing so). I find it distressing that
other forums are actually seeing more newsgroup-related flames than we
are ourselves. How in the world are people elsewhere supposed to
realize that the Tolkien newsgroups are a pleasant place to spend
one's time if every mention of them is negative?
I know that a lot of people here have lingering anger, resentment,
hurt feelings, and worse emotions related to the state of flame came
to an end around a year ago (well, somewhat less). I don't want to
deny that, and I don't want to trivialize it. I just want to ask that
people drop the subject, drop it completely. Drop it here, and just
as importantly drop it elsewhere. I'm suggesting that people not even
make oblique references to the old flame wars: they're gone, and if
we're lucky they'll stay that way. If there are similar problems on
other forums, try your darndest to address _only_ the specific
problems there without bringing in ancient history that doesn't give
an accurate picture of what the newsgroups are currently like.
Hmm. That was all very explicit while at the same time being very
vague. That's a bit silly, but I think it's consistent with my
request that discussion of the old flame wars cease completely. If
nothing else, they're _over_: for whatever reasons, the various people
involved have taken actions that have allowed the flames to stop.
Take the charitable view, assume that everyone who changed their
behavior did so with that goal in mind, and let the matter rest. No
more snide references, no more sighs of relief, and above all no more
attacks on old enemies in other forums in the newsgroups' name.
No, I can't force anyone to follow these suggestions. I don't really
even have any moral authority to ask it of you. I'm just making the
request, from my own feelings and in the hopes that the newsgroups can
gain a reputation for knowledge and decency that they once again
deserve.
Steuard Jensen
Conrad Dunkerson
news:9Xvt6.358$E4.16937@uchinews...
> Given that, I'm quite dismayed to hear that some person (or
> persons) from the groups is actually going out and carrying the
> flames that used to occur here to other forums (and making
> explicit references to history on the newsgroups in doing so).
Um.... Steu? What are you talking about?
While I don't visit the web based forums all that often I do scan
several of them from time to time... and beside a few rabid
denunciations of the newsgroups and all who frequent them posted
many months ago by a single ex-regular I haven't seen any reference
to the groups. YOU are mentioned favorably on the Tolkien Society
website (well deserved), O.Sharp became quite famous in the
aftermath of that Times fiasco, and I've seen other passing
references to individual regulars here - but again these are
generally favorable.
I agree that we should let the past be past - and the pointed
comments at the expense of that ex-regular I mentioned above HAVE
continued (though relatively infrequently), but it sounds like you
are talking about more than just a few passing references and
specifically in other regions. So, what gives? Is there a great
pro/anti-newsgroup campaign being waged somewhere and I simply
missed it?
Kuei...@hotmail.complete
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:
I would add a request for general civility, but that, I am afraid,
will largely fall on deaf ears. Filters, are, of course, a ready and
good solution but it is a bit of a pity.
When I think of Tolkien, I think of grandeur, of poetry, of
recognition of worth, etc.
When I think of the Tolkien ngs, while there are some that hearken and
strive towards those attributes, others do not. So I killfile them.
But while I know it is human nature, it is still somewhat unsettling
to find such a degree of meanness associated with Tolkien related
things. It is more than likely that if he were alive today, if
Tolkien was reading the newsgroups he would rather spend a night in
the Barrowdowns rather than spend one second here. <grin>
So, slightly diverging from Steuard's point (although, thankfully, I
am not really sure what specific instances he is talking about) let me
add a plea for consideration.
--
"Baron (delighted)
Capital, capital! What a sense of humor you have!
Shadow
I am so glad that somebody has found that out."
Casella and Ferris: "Death Takes a Holiday"
Tamim Khawaja
> On Mon, 19 Mar 2001 22:42:13 GMT, sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu
> (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
> I would add a request for general civility, but that, I am afraid,
> will largely fall on deaf ears. Filters, are, of course, a ready and
> good solution but it is a bit of a pity.
> When I think of Tolkien, I think of grandeur, of poetry, of
> recognition of worth, etc.
> When I think of the Tolkien ngs, while there are some that hearken and
> strive towards those attributes, others do not. So I killfile them.
> But while I know it is human nature, it is still somewhat unsettling
> to find such a degree of meanness associated with Tolkien related
> things.
snip
Where is this meannes and lack of civility? I haven't seen that many
flames here lately, and you should have seen even less because you
killfile people. Well, you won't probably see this mean post either as you
killfiled me.
Tamim Khawaja
snip
> I'm pretty sure that our beloved newsgroups have a mixed reputation
> among other Tolkien fans online: after years of near-constant flames
> (for whatever reason; the cause is utterly unimportant),
It is? When a year had passed of the holocaust, was it unimportant who
was to be blamed for it? I admit that flamewars are a bit different
thing to say the least but our societies almost always try to find the
guilty parties and punish them. Your jails are full of people who were
incarcerated because people didn't think that it was unimportant who
were responsible for wrongdoings.
Now having flamed all Christian societies (forgiveness is rare even in
them) and all Americans and you and those guilty parties, I can say that
I am basically against punishment and revenge :)
> quite a few
> people clearly got sick of the groups and left (perhaps without even
> trying to participate). I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a good
> many knowledgeable and decent people haven't even bothered to visit us
> here because most of what they've heard is that we're a nasty croud of
> flamers.
Where is David Salo?
> I think they're missing out on some things: we're one of the very
> oldest communities of Tolkien fans and scholars online, and we've
> developed a very substantial body of knowledge over the years (to say
> nothing of a sense of community that actually survived through that
> nasty period). We're clearly missing out, too: good, interesting,
> intelligent people who avoid the newsgroups because of their
> flame-ridden reputation end up not adding their insights to our ideas
> or their personalities to our community.
We are also missing interesting discussions. Maybe partly because people
are now too afraid to get into arguments that could lead to conflictions
and flames. I enjoyed the discussion about Feanor and his never wanking
sons but I still got the feeling that people were holding back.
> It's a bad situation, and
> one that I think can only change with time (I haven't really thought
> about the possibility of a campaign of evangelism... maybe it's worth
> considering :) ).
We should start advertising the newsgroups on websites and webboards
especially in the following popular webboard
www.xenite.org/boards/tolkien/jt_board.htm.
Maybe he did the right thing to leave: at least they are having
interesting discussions. I visited xenite.org after a long time when I
followed that link about the novelisation of the movie. And they were
discussing balrog wings.
> Given that, I'm quite dismayed to hear that some person (or persons)
> from the groups is actually going out and carrying the flames that
> used to occur here to other forums (and making explicit references to
> history on the newsgroups in doing so).
Now I don't exactly follow you. Why do you think it was someone from the
groups ( you meant someone who posts here regularly, I assume?) who
informed MM about the discussions going on here (again I am assuming you are
referring to this incident)?
Many people read these NGs but never post, I think they are called lurkers:)
Like I told I visited Xenite.org just recently and just now informed
you all about the discussions on balrog wings there. Still I don't think
MM would say that somebody from the white council "is actually going out
and carrying the flames that" occur there to other forums.
Since I am not in the habbit of pulling out the same stunt twice (You
would remember the last time I did that) and I don't think any
regular would dare to imitate me, only two options remain.
a) Some lurker, most probably a registed member of the white council
read either AFT or RABT and sent the incriminating parts to MM.
b) MM himself came to lurk here. I don't think it is easy for him or
for anybody who has been a long time regular to simply quit following
the NGs. Before one even notices one comes back. I know I did and I
am not even a long time regular. It took only a few days before I
started posting as Hallaril.
> I find it distressing that
> other forums are actually seeing more newsgroup-related flames than we
> are ourselves.
Is it possible: you are the physicist. That reminds me that I really
might need your help in a problem about 'plasma physics'.
> How in the world are people elsewhere supposed to
> realize that the Tolkien newsgroups are a pleasant place to spend
> one's time if every mention of them is negative?
We have your pages, O.Sharps's (with or without the 's'?)
and probably many more, but I see your point and agree.
snip
> I'm suggesting that people not even
> make oblique references to the old flame wars: they're gone, and if
> we're lucky they'll stay that way.
I don't think that this will be easy or even possible. You can't forget
history: you are my enemy and I will remeber the main parts of that post
in which you called me a rat for quite a long time :)
And remebering the old wars is storytelling, myth and lore.
Only few remeber the springtime of AFT and we others have to just ask
them to tell the stories.
I am not saying that one shoudn't make peace with the past, but to sweep
it under the carpet is not good either. Some nations have tried
to forget their tragic or embarassing history, others mellow in it (giving the examples would
generate flames), both ways are IMO bad. One has to find the middle
road. The comments here (mine included) after the link was posted were not very rude
IMHO; they were wry and sarcastic but not malicious.
> If there are similar problems on
> other forums, try your darndest to address _only_ the specific
> problems there without bringing in ancient history that doesn't give
> an accurate picture of what the newsgroups are currently like.
Agreed, wholeheartedly.
> Hmm. That was all very explicit while at the same time being very
> vague.
Not very good scientific writing :)
snip
> No, I can't force anyone to follow these suggestions. I don't really
> even have any moral authority to ask it of you. I'm just making the
> request, from my own feelings and in the hopes that the newsgroups can
> gain a reputation for knowledge and decency that they once again
> deserve.
>
And the Gallant knight Steuard Turambar rides again for a noble quest
doomed to fail :)
Tamim
Skylar Thompson
[snipped suggestions]
I will sign on to that immedeately and without reservation.
--Skylar Thompson (sky...@attglobal.net)
`All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king.'
China Blue Screen of Death
However do not expect decent replies to indecent statements, no matter how
much honey they drip.
--
Bush and Dick Bait: Robin Red Breast, Blue Tit, Jackass
Penguin, Erect-crested Penguin, Red-necked Grebe, Fairy
Prion, Rock Shag. Machine censorred for you protection.
--
CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123
pretty pretty <blink> http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/
All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today!
:)-free zone. </blink> Elect LUM World Dictator!
Flame of the West
Steuard of Gondor wrote:
> I know that a lot of people here have lingering anger, resentment,
> hurt feelings, and worse emotions related to the state of flame came
> to an end around a year ago (well, somewhat less). I don't want to
> deny that, and I don't want to trivialize it.
I am glad that Steuard is acknowledging the very real hurt and
trauma I feel. It's so bad that I almost have trouble in the morning
dragging myself out of bed and online. Fortunately, months of
very expensive therapy have helped me cope.
But seriously, Steu, it really hasn't been too bad here lately!
MM's recent post seemed jarringly anachronistic - he seems
frozen in a past time, which is not surprising given that he
no longer follows things here. I wonder what flame thread
the unnamed culprit spread abroad, given that there really
hasn't been one lately that I can recall.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth.
Kent
>
> Hello, all. This is off topic, but it relates to these groups, their
> reputation, and simple human decency, so I figure I'll post it anyway.
> Listen or not as you see fit, and I ask in advance that at least all
> _posted_ replies be reasonably polite.
> snip <
Did he get at you again? heh
Look, folks, I mostly lurk in these groups as I'm no expert by any means
on LOTR or JRRT in general, but I do enjoy reading the discussions you
well-versed posters have to offer :). However, I really feel I ought
to point out that it seems that Mr. Martinez is extremely sensitive to
negative attention and in his rather acid way was saying as much in his
closing paragraph. Thus, it only reinforces his argument when threads
and threads of commentary on his infrequent posts occur. It might make
the most sense of all to just let him be and not pay any more mind to
such comments than you would 'kid_brother@webtv: YOU GUYS STINK'.
In shorter terms: don't feed the trolls
butting in as usual,
Kent
PS. AS for the topic in general, I'm in agreement with it...though I
haven't seen anything really nasty in a Looonnnggg time here. Certainly
no more so than any other discussion group I frequent. Heck, even the
single M seems downright fluffy in recent times (ducks and runs before
soiled diaper makes it across the pond)
Steuard Jensen
<mXwt6.6438$M%2.50...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
> > Given that, I'm quite dismayed to hear that some person (or
> > persons) from the groups is actually going out and carrying the
> > flames that used to occur here to other forums (and making
> > explicit references to history on the newsgroups in doing so).
> Um.... Steu? What are you talking about?
> While I don't visit the web based forums all that often I do scan
> several of them from time to time... [and] I haven't seen any
> reference to the groups.
Hmm. A little bird told me that someone was giving that particular
ex-regular a hard time in one or two other forums and using his
history on the newsgroups as ammunition. I can understand that it
might be considered relevant, but since I spend my time here and not
on other forums I'd rather see the newsgroups get more respect than
someone score points in a useless flame war elsewhere. My information
could also be faulty; it didn't sound like it at the time, but one
never knows.
At any rate, knowing that history wouldn't require anything more than
lurking here for a while a year or two ago, so that may not actually
say much; it's entirely possible that the person who's doing it isn't
actually here at the moment. I figured that I'd just try to
discourage that sort of thing in general, just in case anyone here
_was_ involved, and to discourage the "bogey man" attitude that seems
to have replaced serious flames here.
I'm not saying, "forget the past". I'm just saying, "don't bring up
the past unless it is explicitly brought up by someone who doesn't
know better, and even then think about saying nothing rather than
saying something negative." I know it's probably a hopeless goal, but
the more often people talk about the "bad old days" and philosophizing
on what made them bad, the more truth there is to claims that we're
insatiable flamers here (though the current level hardly rises to that
level anyway).
Steuard Jensen
Raven
news:9Xvt6.358$E4.16937@uchinews...
> I know that a lot of people here have lingering anger, resentment,
> hurt feelings, and worse emotions related to the state of flame came
> to an end around a year ago (well, somewhat less).
How in blistering hellfire ^H^H^H can anyone feel genuinely angry
over flames? They're just bits of text on the computer screen -
whitenoise. I must conclude that many people do feel angry, and by this
anger cause real grief by making it difficult to find the worthy
postings *amid* the rising plume of whitenoise... FWIW, in my
discussions with MM I cannot remember having been flamed by him. Stood
up to, but not flamed. Perhaps I'm just too thick-skinned (or -headed
(keep it down, Tamf and O'Neill!)) to have noticed. Nor can I remember
having been flamed by anyone else. Ribbed a little, in a nice and
friendly way, by people whom I consider (basically) friendly --- when
that Chowdervale guy showed his colours I just ignored him. <polishes
halo>
Brán Vrás.
China Blue Screen of Death
<jonlenn...@get2net.dk> wrote:
/ "Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> skrev i en meddelelse
/ news:9Xvt6.358$E4.16937@uchinews...
/
/ > I know that a lot of people here have lingering anger, resentment,
/ > hurt feelings, and worse emotions related to the state of flame came
/ > to an end around a year ago (well, somewhat less).
/ How in blistering hellfire ^H^H^H can anyone feel genuinely angry
Do you know that on a Decwriter, that would go
How in blistering hellfire \eri\ can anyone feel genuinely angry
Kuei...@hotmail.complete
wrote:
I want you to look *really* hard at what you wrote and then think
about it.
Skylar Thompson
>/ _posted_ replies be reasonably polite. If you've got something to say
>
>However do not expect decent replies to indecent statements, no matter how
>much honey they drip.
Why? That is tit for tat, and just escalates the matter. It is best
either to ignore the remark, or to deal with it politely yet firmly.
Öjevind Lång
>Steuard of Gondor wrote:
>
>> I know that a lot of people here have lingering anger, resentment,
>> hurt feelings, and worse emotions related to the state of flame came
>> to an end around a year ago (well, somewhat less). I don't want to
>> deny that, and I don't want to trivialize it.
>
>I am glad that Steuard is acknowledging the very real hurt and
>trauma I feel. It's so bad that I almost have trouble in the morning
>dragging myself out of bed and online. Fortunately, months of
>very expensive therapy have helped me cope.
LOLOL
>But seriously, Steu, it really hasn't been too bad here lately!
>MM's recent post seemed jarringly anachronistic - he seems
>frozen in a past time, which is not surprising given that he
>no longer follows things here. I wonder what flame thread
>the unnamed culprit spread abroad, given that there really
>hasn't been one lately that I can recall.
I agree with FotW. Nowadays, these newsgroups are generally very civil and
friendly, and newcomers here frequetly comment on it. Why do you try to make
out that *we* (the present posters in the Tolkien newsgroups) are
responsible for the Return of the Shadow? Anyway, It sems to have left
again. So I agree about not discussing this further; but stop upbraiding us.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
FotW. And I think we should all be polite to each other and not insinuate
that anyone still posting here is giving the Tolkien newsgroups a bad name
without offering *very* good evidence that that is the case.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång skrev i meddelandet
<_eHt6.2801$341....@nntpserver.swip.net>...
Tamim Khawaja
snip
>>Where is this meannes and lack of civility? I haven't seen that many
>>flames here lately, and you should have seen even less because you
>>killfile people. Well, you won't probably see this mean post either as you
>>killfiled me.
> I want you to look *really* hard at what you wrote and then think
> about it.
You mean my post was uncivil or mean? Please. Yours was more because you
blamed us of meannes. I am just curt. One doesn't have to be that
touchy.
Tamim
Kuei...@hotmail.complete
wrote:
>In alt.fan.tolkien Kuei...@hotmail.complete wrote:
Quote
"Well, you won't probably see this mean post either as you
killfiled me."
endquote.
Michael O'Neill
[...]
Dearest Steuard,
I love you like a brother, but this has got to be said. You can now put
on your Nomex {tm} knickers and balaclava and enjoy the warmth.
The groups have *not* been that bad for the last six months.
If you know the identity of the fool bringing the groups into disrepute,
post it and please stop hedging. Anonymity is a particulary misguided
form of political correctiness which prevents effective action. In fact
I don't know *what* relevance there is for these groups in your heavily
censored story about a renegade ex-poster with a grudge against another
previous poster which he somehow vents by referring to the other posters
past indescretions which he committed here in other BBS's. Its all good
advertising AFAICS.
As it is, you are engaging in a particularly subtle form of flaming all
by yourself, both of the individual concerned and of the two groups
entire by posting like this. Its called the "youse are all flamers"
flame. Most annoying. I'm showing much restraint. We've all flamed one
another here at one time. We know we're all flamers. But we can be
civilised too.
Everyone is looking around wondering if you've lost it because the
recent past has been relatively quiet. I'm looking at you windering if
you've lost it because you're waving the bogeyman at a group composed of
mostly mature adults. Come on Steuard. Don't you think caring about the
sensitivities of a collection of sheltered thin skins is worrying in
itself? Go on. Visit this anonymous forum. Say "boo". You'll be
surprised just how many flamers there are there too I suspect.
If you post in any public forum you sooner of later will get flamed. If
you post controversial opinions you will get flamed sooner. If your
assertions cannot be proven but rest on opinions you will be flamed
every time you assert that your opinion is pre-eminent. That's Usenet:
90% flames according to one University Definition site - live with it.
:-)
If you're depending on wallflowers who lurk but won't contribute to
enliven these groups discussion and thus make your day, you're in deep
trouble. Wallflowers are that way in RL too. Nothing to say. Here at
least, hidden behind a Newsreading application, *some* Wallflowers have
"come out" I'm thankful to say. Some have contributed to the general
discussion beyond their previous ability. Some are downright frightening
in their previously hidden natural viciousness. But it's all grist to
the mill that is USenet and more power to them I say.
If OTOH you're depending for approval of your self image and behaviour
on people who prefer to snicker about you behind your back via e-mail
exchanges, you are heading for catastrophe. These people are always like
that. They'd prefer to criticise those who *do* contribute rather than
actually contribute anything themselves.
Finally if you think you can make anyone change their behaviour by
pleading for politeness in a time period which has seen this group being
relatively quiet and well behaved, well, no, IMO, is the answer.
And I would exhort others reading this to enjoy themselves here on
Usenet and not develop guilt trips about flaming. We all flame. Try to
minimise it certainly, but eliminate it? Nope. Full anf Frank discussion
is what goes on here. Post under an alias if you have to, but post.
Learning to apologise is far more constructive and shows maturity. So
I'm sorry for the tone of this post if it offends you, Steuard, but I
felt you were being particularly self-righteous with this post, and to
no purpose. Now if you want me to follow this other genius around and
administer an O'Neill Punishment, I will do so. Probably by boring him
to death "in a BBS near you".
Politely.
Otherwise, can we all move on?
Please?
<sheesh!>
M.
M.N.Khan
Naskha
Flame of the West wrote:
> <snip>
>
> But seriously, Steu, it really hasn't been too bad here lately!
> MM's recent post seemed jarringly anachronistic - he seems
> frozen in a past time, which is not surprising given that he
> no longer follows things here. I wonder what flame thread
> the unnamed culprit spread abroad, given that there really
> hasn't been one lately that I can recall.
>
> -- FotW
Flame of the West
"M.N.Khan" wrote:
> Talking of jarring anachronisms - I'm back.
>
> Naskha
AAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!
I mean, welcome back.
M.N.Khan
>
>
> > Talking of jarring anachronisms - I'm back.
> >
> > Naskha
>
> AAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUGGGGGHHHHHH!
>
> I mean, welcome back.
>
> --
>
> -- FotW
I can feel the welcoming warmth already.
Naskha
Öjevind Lång
>Steuard Jensen wrote:
>[...]
>
>Dearest Steuard,
>I love you like a brother, but this has got to be said. You can now put
>on your Nomex {tm} knickers and balaclava and enjoy the warmth.
[snip]
>Learning to apologise is far more constructive and shows maturity. So
>I'm sorry for the tone of this post if it offends you, Steuard, but I
>felt you were being particularly self-righteous with this post, and to
>no purpose. Now if you want me to follow this other genius around and
>administer an O'Neill Punishment, I will do so. Probably by boring him
>to death "in a BBS near you".
>
>Politely.
>
>Otherwise, can we all move on?
I agree with you, Michael. Good post.
Öjevind
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Given that, I'm quite dismayed to hear that some person (or persons)
>from the groups is actually going out and carrying the flames that
>used to occur here to other forums (and making explicit references to
>history on the newsgroups in doing so).
I don't know what or whom this is referring to, but perhaps it would
be more efficient to write to those persons directly in e-mail and
ask them to stop?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://oakroadsystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/
Tolkien letters FAQ: http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm
Randy Simcox
> >> I would add a request for general civility, but that, I am afraid,
> >> will largely fall on deaf ears. Filters, are, of course, a ready and
> >> good solution but it is a bit of a pity.
> >
> >> When I think of Tolkien, I think of grandeur, of poetry, of
> >> recognition of worth, etc.
> >
> >> When I think of the Tolkien ngs, while there are some that hearken and
> >> strive towards those attributes, others do not. So I killfile them.
> >> But while I know it is human nature, it is still somewhat unsettling
> >> to find such a degree of meanness associated with Tolkien related
> >> things.
Holy Moley. I mainly just read this group but I've been doing it since near its
inception. It's as calm as a hobbit fish pond if you campare it to just a year
ago. It was more like the seas around the enchanted isles then.
Randy
Andrew Wells
Andrew
--
Andrew Wells
Replace nospam with my first name to reach me
China Blue Screen of Death
/ >
/ >However do not expect decent replies to indecent statements, no matter how
/ >much honey they drip.
/
/ Why? That is tit for tat, and just escalates the matter. It is best
/ either to ignore the remark, or to deal with it politely yet firmly.
Because racists have a new tactic: rather than wearing white sheets and
screaming like lunatics, they are getting into universities and finding
clever ways to spread their hate.
Tamf Moo
miserable oyster:
>I can feel the welcoming warmth already.
*phoo... phoo*
will someone get some more firewood, quick? i can't keep this going
forever!
--
Tamf the lellow moodragon
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.
Michael O'Neill
<reels back in complete and utter shock!>
NOW see what that fool Steuard has done!!!
The Jensen Interceptor has struck again!!!
<goes off to sharpen knives and fill flame throwers...>
This cannot last... I may even have to return to alt.flame for a
while...all this niceness can only end in tears, tears I say!!!
Bring back Martinez!
<looks up>
Oh Gawd! What have I said...
That sinking feeling returns, just like when I invited Suzieflame over
for tea to alt.fan.tolkien...
M.
Michael O'Neill
>
> "M.N.Khan" <ECA9...@sheffield.ac.uk> whispered these words into a
> miserable oyster:
>
> >I can feel the welcoming warmth already.
>
> *phoo... phoo*
>
> will someone get some more firewood, quick? i can't keep this going
> forever!
>
I smelt him coming back.
M.
David Flood
news:3AB6E3AC...@worldnet.att.net...
<snip>
> PS. AS for the topic in general, I'm in agreement with it...though I
> haven't seen anything really nasty in a Looonnnggg time here. Certainly
> no more so than any other discussion group I frequent. Heck, even the
> single M seems downright fluffy in recent times (ducks and runs before
> soiled diaper makes it across the pond)
I agree with Kent - I 'lurked' since December 1999, only occasionally
posting here or there (college committments taking up too much time - I'm on
mid-term now as it is)...
It ~was~ pretty savage, I have to say, though some of them are *bloody*
funny, as well... ('insults' and 'satire' were an actual art form in Gaelic
culture, the tradition lives on in many *fine* practitioners today (Mr.
O'Neill take a bow? ;-)
Daithí
Raven
meddelelse news:mlindanne-190...@c3.ppp.tsoft.com...
> / How in blistering hellfire ^H^H^H can anyone feel genuinely angry
> Do you know that on a Decwriter, that would go
> How in blistering hellfire \eri\ can anyone feel genuinely angry
No.
Wu[1] Ya[1].
David Flood
"David Flood" <nospam-...@corpoman.buyandsell.ie> wrote in message
<snip>I 'lurked' since December 1999, only occasionally
> posting here or there
- as "Daithi_F", for anyone remotely interested ;-)
I Trolled on us.military.army for a while (great fun : ), where *truly* the
strangest people hang out... and occasionally visit
rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan, for my sins...
> Daithí
>
Conrad Dunkerson
news:J_Bt6.386$E4.17668@uchinews...
> Hmm. A little bird told me that someone was giving that
> particular ex-regular a hard time in one or two other forums and
> using his history on the newsgroups as ammunition.
Well, I've just spent a couple of hours searching around, and
while I found hundreds of people giving 'that particular ex-
regular' (given that everyone knows we are talking about Michael
Martinez I think I'm just gonna have to drop the 'obfuscation') a
hard time there was only one which even mentioned usenet;
http://www.coronaproductions.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000009.html
Even that was just a reference to the fact that Michael doesn't
post to Usenet anymore (for the most part). If someone HAS been
using ancient usenet history to tear MM down I wasn't able to
find it, and I can't imagine why they'd bother... after reading
through the absolute BARRAGE of vitriol directed Michael's way on
other subjects >I< find myself feeling sorry for the guy. Which
is really freaking me out.
> I can understand that it might be considered relevant, but since
> I spend my time here and not on other forums I'd rather see the
> newsgroups get more respect than someone score points in a
> useless flame war elsewhere.
Actually, doing separate searches for 'alt.fan.tolkien' and
'rec.arts.books.tolkien' on several of the major web discussion
boards didn't turn up any sort of comment one way or the other.
Generally speaking there isn't alot of talk about other discussion
forums, just the news sites.
> My information could also be faulty; it didn't sound like it at
> the time, but one never knows.
Well, could be so but without more specific info I can't find
anything.
> I figured that I'd just try to discourage that sort of thing in
> general, just in case anyone here _was_ involved, and to
> discourage the "bogey man" attitude that seems to have replaced
> serious flames here.
Actually, I agree... though I think maybe the time of 'walking on
eggshells' should pass. For quite some time I've wanted the
Tolkien newsgroups to return to a peaceful environment... but that
has pretty much happened and there are only occasional notes of
discord - which I've been letting pass in hopes of keeping things
quiet. Maybe it is time to go ahead and call a spade a spade
every once in a while.
Conrad Dunkerson
news:lXzt6.1309$bq4....@news.get2net.dk...
> How in blistering hellfire ^H^H^H can anyone feel genuinely angry
> over flames?
There were much better reasons for people to be angry with Michael
Martinez than the fact that he flamed constantly. That whole thing
where he tried to get my Internet access canceled... or the time he
started issuing fake cancel messages on the posts of people who
disagreed with him... or his months of making daily posts
harassing another regular (since fled) for no greater crime than
telling someone else to stop flaming Michael.
The fact that he was the worst flamer I've ever seen? Small
potatoes by comparison.
Conrad Dunkerson
news:997md1$n5d$1...@bignews.shef.ac.uk...
> Talking of jarring anachronisms - I'm back.
Hiya Nas! Welcome back.
Stan Brown
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>"Raven" <jonlenn...@get2net.dk> wrote in message
>news:lXzt6.1309$bq4....@news.get2net.dk...
>
>> How in blistering hellfire ^H^H^H can anyone feel genuinely angry
>> over flames?
>
>There were much better reasons for people to be angry with
> than the fact that he flamed constantly.
You mention some things, none of which seemed that serious to me.
The big problem was not that he argued vehemently -- we all do that,
from time to time. It was that he denied the possibility of having
an argument, or even a discussion. "There is no god but Tolkien, and
[deleted] is his prophet" was his attitude. There was only one way
to interpret texts, his way, and anyone who read anything else into
them was simply being perverse.
_That_ attitude denies the whole possibility of having a discussion,
because only [deleted]'s viewpoint has any validity at all. It is
ultimately destructive of the newsgroup.
Look at the current discussion about succession to the High Kingship
of the Noldor. It grows heated sometimes (and I pulled back because
I felt I was getting too heated), but while we each have our
different interpretations, none of us denies that interpretation is
involved; none of us claims to have a monopoly on correct
interpretation of Tolkien.
It was _that_ attitude, oft expressed, that was my big problem with
[deleted]. A pity, too, because he had a lot of genuine scholarship
and made great contributions.
(And so I note that Steuard's post has perhaps had the opposite
effect from what he intended: it has reopened a discussion of
[deleted] in _these_ newsgroups.)
Russ
Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>> Hmm. A little bird told me that someone was giving that
>> particular ex-regular a hard time in one or two other forums and
>> using his history on the newsgroups as ammunition.
>
>Well, I've just spent a couple of hours searching around...
Good God. Find something better to do with your time. <g>
Russ
Conrad Dunkerson
news:20010320211210...@nso-fc.aol.com...
> Good God. Find something better to do with your time. <g>
Well, actually some of it was amusing at first;
http://www.jimcalagon.supanet.com/mm1.htm
But then it all just got to be too much. The brouhaha over his
denunciation of 'Peter Jackson's lies and betrayal' (apparently PJ
decided M-E was medieval - at least in part) alone would take days
to wade through.
Raven
meddelelse
news:e8St6.8100$wQ3.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> There were much better reasons for people to be angry with Michael
> Martinez than the fact that he flamed constantly. That whole thing
> where he tried to get my Internet access canceled... or the time he
> started issuing fake cancel messages on the posts of people who
> disagreed with him... or his months of making daily posts
> harassing another regular (since fled) for no greater crime than
> telling someone else to stop flaming Michael.
Well, that's different then. That is more than whitenoise, and may
be compared to physical violence vs. name-calling in a face-to-face
encounter. I was never subject to such behaviour from him, though, and
this was not because I refused to speak with him - I did debate
the-Ring-or-Frodo-speaking-on-Mnt-Doom with him, and the justification
for searching scientifically for God.
Cuervo.
Steuard Jensen
<uURt6.8089$wQ3.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
> "Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > [I would like to] discourage the "bogey man" attitude that seems
> > to have replaced serious flames here.
> Actually, I agree... though I think maybe the time of 'walking on
> eggshells' should pass.
I _think_ that our positions here are similar, anyway. :) Here's my
point: over the past few months, I've had several people suggest (on
the groups or in email) that "Who was MM?" be added to the FAQ. It
won't be, but that's beside the point: I'm tired of newcomers even
having a reason to _ask_ that question. It clearly wouldn't come up
if we just mentioned Michael when attributing an idea to him (for
example, "Michael Martinez used to argue that the description of the
Balrog was a transition from vagueness to clarity").
The question only arises when people make comments about how awful MM
was, or refer to trolls (jokingly) as "Michael?", or otherwise make
oblique references to him on the groups. That's what I'm thinking of
as our "bogey man" attitude: the fact that he still has enough of a
presence here (through us) that we have to explain who he is to
generation after generation of newcomers. I'd prefer it if we just
didn't bring him up at all, unless it's in the context of an actual
on-topic citation of his ideas. I just don't think there's any reason
for the negative aspects of peoples' contributions to the groups to be
maintained once they're gone. I don't think that it's walking on
eggshells to simply not make references to such things.
Steuard Jensen
Flame of the West
Stan Brown wrote:
> >There were much better reasons for people to be angry with
> [deleted]
> > than the fact that he flamed constantly.
>
> You mention some things, none of which seemed that serious to me.
> The big problem was not that he argued vehemently -- we all do that,
> from time to time. It was that he denied the possibility of having
> an argument, or even a discussion.
What!? Stan, the "no-so-serious" things you snipped from
Conrad's post are as follows:
> That whole thing
> where he tried to get my Internet access canceled... or the time he
> started issuing fake cancel messages on the posts of people who
> disagreed with him... or his months of making daily posts
> harassing another regular (since fled) for no greater crime than
> telling someone else to stop flaming Michael.
Assuming these are true (I have no first-hand knowledge but
take Conrad's word for it), they are shocking. Trying to
cancel the Internet access of someone who disagrees with
you is far more serious than having an imperious attitude
in discussion. I'm amazed at your cavalier attitude toward
actions which are aimed at supressing free speech on the
Internet of all places.
Steuard Jensen
<MPG.152148dfb...@news.mindspring.com>:
> ...perhaps it would be more efficient to write to those persons
> directly in e-mail and ask them to stop?
I seem to have a bad habit of causing this sort of mess. My bad.
On another note, it honestly didn't occur to me that I was essentially
making a mass accusation of the people on the groups in my post. I
had some directly group-related things to say as well (the "bogey man"
concerns that I've elaborated elsewhere in this thread), so I decided
to lump those together with my attempt to discourage some current or
former reader or participant in these groups who I was told had been
using the old flames here as part of their arguments elsewhere. If
that's too vague for you, well, it's close to all I've got. In
retrospect, that was a mistake.
As I said elsewhere, I'm largely just tired of newcomers to these
groups having to ask "Who was MM?" If the references (silly or
serious) that make that question arise go away, I'll be happy. Heck,
I'll be happy anyway. :)
Steuard Jensen
Flame of the West
Steuard Jensen wrote:
> Here's my
> point: over the past few months, I've had several people suggest (on
> the groups or in email) that "Who was MM?" be added to the FAQ.
I WANT EQUAL TIME!!!!
If *he* goes in, then so do I! Perhaps a question along the lines of,
"Who is the most unyielding and vocal right-winger in the NGs?"
Flame of the West
Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> But then it all just got to be too much. The brouhaha over his
> denunciation of 'Peter Jackson's lies and betrayal' (apparently PJ
> decided M-E was medieval - at least in part) alone would take days
> to wade through.
PJ had the unmitigated gall to use John Howe as an artistic
consultant. This gives a medieval flavor which, for MM, can
only be atoned for by the slow death of the director.
Tuor
"Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:uURt6.8089$wQ3.617598@bgtnsc04-
[snip]
> after reading
> through the absolute BARRAGE of vitriol directed Michael's way on
> other subjects >I< find myself feeling sorry for the guy. Which
> is really freaking me out.
Tuor breaks the Vulcan Mind Meld, "Stop, Conrad! Get a hold of yourself!
Remember who you are! It's okay. Breathe now, breathe. There you go.
That's better. Everything will be fine. Just relax. That's right. Good."
Tuor
Tuor
news:3AB80943...@erols.com...
[snip]
> Assuming these are true (I have no first-hand knowledge but
> take Conrad's word for it), they are shocking. Trying to
> cancel the Internet access of someone who disagrees with
> you is far more serious than having an imperious attitude
> in discussion. I'm amazed at your cavalier attitude toward
> actions which are aimed at supressing free speech on the
> Internet of all places.
I don't know if the bit about the Internet account is true, but I remember
the attempts at cancellation. Actually, they were not merely attempts. Some
succeeded as I recall. I know a lot of people complained of it. There were
other things involving being banned from entire groups and warnings that the
Usenet Gods would be invoked (I don't recall the particulars). But I do
remember it wasn't very nice.
Tuor
China Blue Screen of Death
/ > started issuing fake cancel messages on the posts of people who
/ > disagreed with him... or his months of making daily posts
/ take Conrad's word for it), they are shocking. Trying to
/ cancel the Internet access of someone who disagrees with
/ you is far more serious than having an imperious attitude
/ in discussion. I'm amazed at your cavalier attitude toward
/ actions which are aimed at supressing free speech on the
/ Internet of all places.
The cancelbots detected it and reinstated my and the others's messages.
The Nameless Enemy claimed it to be a joke, just testing how well
cancelbots worked. I thought it was all enormously funny. At the time Deja
kept a record of posts, cancel messages, and reposts for all to see.
Joan McCaull
politeness. I dearly want to take some part in the discussions. Joan
McCaull8$E4.16937@uchinews...
> Hello, all. This is off topic, but it relates to these groups, their
> reputation, and simple human decency, so I figure I'll post it anyway.
> Listen or not as you see fit, and I ask in advance that at least all
> _posted_ replies be reasonably polite. If you've got something to say
> it to me in email. I'll try to find a way to post a summary of any
> and all such emailed replies that I don't feel would cause substantial
> harm.
>
> I'm pretty sure that our beloved newsgroups have a mixed reputation
> among other Tolkien fans online: after years of near-constant flames
> (for whatever reason; the cause is utterly unimportant), quite a few
> people clearly got sick of the groups and left (perhaps without even
> trying to participate). I wouldn't be surprised to learn that a good
> many knowledgeable and decent people haven't even bothered to visit us
> here because most of what they've heard is that we're a nasty croud of
> flamers.
>
> I think they're missing out on some things: we're one of the very
> oldest communities of Tolkien fans and scholars online, and we've
> developed a very substantial body of knowledge over the years (to say
> nothing of a sense of community that actually survived through that
> nasty period). We're clearly missing out, too: good, interesting,
> intelligent people who avoid the newsgroups because of their
> flame-ridden reputation end up not adding their insights to our ideas
> or their personalities to our community. It's a bad situation, and
> one that I think can only change with time (I haven't really thought
> about the possibility of a campaign of evangelism... maybe it's worth
> considering :) ).
>
> Given that, I'm quite dismayed to hear that some person (or persons)
> from the groups is actually going out and carrying the flames that
> used to occur here to other forums (and making explicit references to
> other forums are actually seeing more newsgroup-related flames than we
> are ourselves. How in the world are people elsewhere supposed to
> realize that the Tolkien newsgroups are a pleasant place to spend
> one's time if every mention of them is negative?
>
> I know that a lot of people here have lingering anger, resentment,
> hurt feelings, and worse emotions related to the state of flame came
> to an end around a year ago (well, somewhat less). I don't want to
> deny that, and I don't want to trivialize it. I just want to ask that
> people drop the subject, drop it completely. Drop it here, and just
> as importantly drop it elsewhere. I'm suggesting that people not even
> make oblique references to the old flame wars: they're gone, and if
> we're lucky they'll stay that way. If there are similar problems on
> other forums, try your darndest to address _only_ the specific
> problems there without bringing in ancient history that doesn't give
> an accurate picture of what the newsgroups are currently like.
>
> Hmm. That was all very explicit while at the same time being very
> vague. That's a bit silly, but I think it's consistent with my
> request that discussion of the old flame wars cease completely. If
> nothing else, they're _over_: for whatever reasons, the various people
> involved have taken actions that have allowed the flames to stop.
> Take the charitable view, assume that everyone who changed their
> behavior did so with that goal in mind, and let the matter rest. No
> more snide references, no more sighs of relief, and above all no more
> attacks on old enemies in other forums in the newsgroups' name.
>
> No, I can't force anyone to follow these suggestions. I don't really
> even have any moral authority to ask it of you. I'm just making the
> request, from my own feelings and in the hopes that the newsgroups can
> gain a reputation for knowledge and decency that they once again
> deserve.
> Steuard Jensen
Bruce Boa
<snip>
I know that a lot of people have lingering anger,...
<snip>
.. related to the state of flame [that] came to an end around a year
ago (well somewhat less)
<snip>
THEN, Flame of the West wrote:
<snip>
But seriously Stu, it really hasn't been all that bad here lately!
<snip>
AND THEN, Ojevind wrote:
I agree with FotW. Nowadays, these newsgroups are generally very civil
and friendly, and newcomers frequently comment on it.
<snip>
As one of those newcomer's Ojevind referred to, I have to agree with
that statement. So far, (I've been posting for less than a week),
everyone has been nice to me. I agree also with other posts in this
thread, that have stated that if your going to make a claim, you should
be prepared to back it up with evidence. That doesn't mean uncivilized
behaviour is justified, but anyone who does post, should be prepared.
In my case, I was very nervous when I made that first post.
I've been on-line for less than three months, and I've been browsing, (I
don't like the term "lurking") in AFT for less than two. What I've seen
so far are informative, and entertaining debates, about Tolkien's work.
People have honest differences of opinion, but I've learned more, and
have thought more about the nature of his sub-creation, than ever
before, because of them. Also, I've laughed often at the many witty
posts here. I'll never be able to read LotR again, without smiling at
some very inappropriate moments!
That is the purpose of a NG is it not? To share, in a virtual community
around our planet, our knowledge and passion for JRRT's writing's. From
this newcommer's perspective, you have, suceeded in this goal. And I
believe that you will continue to do so.
Obviously, I can't speak for what has gone before, but I would recomend
AFT to anyone with our interests without hesitation.
Bruce.
Öjevind Lång
>"Steuard Jensen" wrote in message...
>
>> Hmm. A little bird told me that someone was giving that
>> particular ex-regular a hard time in one or two other forums and
>> using his history on the newsgroups as ammunition.
>
>Well, I've just spent a couple of hours searching around, and
>while I found hundreds of people giving 'that particular ex-
>regular' (given that everyone knows we are talking about Michael
>Martinez I think I'm just gonna have to drop the 'obfuscation') a
>hard time there was only one which even mentioned usenet;
>
>http://www.coronaproductions.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000009.html
There was one statement by HWMNBN that interested me:
>Actually, based on what's been revealed to date, the Uruk-hai are not true
Orcs. They are armor-plated warriors hatched from pods, perhaps akin to Orcs
(I see you covered that at the start of your Two Towers list).
On what grounds might such a statement be made?
And then therewas this very typical observation:
>The biggest problem I see in these films, as far as bringing audiences
closer to Middle-earth, is that Peter Jackson went medieval on us. Tolkien
didn't depict a medieval Middle-earth, and he denied medieval connections.
But the story Jackson tells and the characters his films present to the
audience will be the deciding factors. All will be forgiven if the
experience is enjoyable.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
>I may be one of those people who have been put offthe group by the lack of
>politeness. I dearly want to take some part in the discussions. Joan
>McCaull8$E4.16937@uchinews...
By Usenet standards, AFT and RABT are very quiet and civil newsgroups.
Öjevind
kuei...@hotmail.com
By war standards, the Gulf War was relatively bloodless. This,
however, was no consolation to an Iraqi front line soldier. ;-)
It is one of the peculiar things about usenet, that flames and
hostility and vulgarity are often defended by application of rights of
free speech, but requests for tolerance, consideration, elevated
discourse, etc. are somehow not accorded that same protection.
As Maugham said in "Cakes and Ale"
"Rum, very rum."
Sindamor Pandaturion
Öjevind Lång
Conrad Dunkerson hath written:
>"LESDL" <LESD...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:euvebt020d41fkk94...@4ax.com...
>
>> I realize this forum is much more multi-national than the other
>> one is, but have there been gatherings organized in the past,
>> specifically for members here? It might be fun and interesting.
>
>There was a get together of the TEUNCers in Oxford last year that
>seems to have been quite successful. I've hoped that someone might
>eventually find the energy to organize a more general one. I'd
>certainly be interested in meeting the rest of gang in person.
That sounds like a very nice idea, Conrad. And ten we can invite MM to hold
the inaugural speech.
Öjevind
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>There is a second TEUNCmoot in the late planning stages right now. In
>Copenhagen in August I believe. Ask Ole.
There seems to be a general agreement that the TEUNCmoot will begin in
Copenhagen on Sunday 8 July and end on Saturday 14 July.
Öjevind
Ermanna
Joan McCaull wrote:
> I may be one of those people who have been put offthe group by the lack of
> politeness. I dearly want to take some part in the discussions.
By all means, talk! We're really very nice!
> Joan McCaull
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
Elbereth Gilthoniel!
Tamim Khawaja
> [snip]
I am not very far away, maybe I could come if my precence is tolerated :)
--
grimgard
Flame of the West wrote:
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
> > Here's my
> > point: over the past few months, I've had several people suggest (on
> > the groups or in email) that "Who was MM?" be added to the FAQ.
>
> I WANT EQUAL TIME!!!!
>
> If *he* goes in, then so do I! Perhaps a question along the lines of,
> "Who is the most unyielding and vocal right-winger in the NGs?"
>
Or maybe, "Who is the only regular who actually drags his children in
here?" ;)
grimgard
grimgard
Steuard Jensen wrote:
I don't know, Steuard, it's anice thought but, for better or for worse,
Michael is a signifigant part of the history of AFT and RABT. Usually
such comments are just between us old timers, but it seems inevitable that
they will occasionally arise and that, once in a while, one of the
newcomers will be curious enough to ask. I agree that adding him to the
FAQ would be in poor taste, especially since he would almost certainly
disapprove, but here's a possible alternative solution: elect one regular
on the group to respond to such questions via private e-mail with a brief
objective paragraph stating that Michael is a former user, that he was
extremely prolific, that he was very knowledgeable about Tolkien and that
he left the group some months ago. It seems reasonable to also mention,
as politely as possible, that he had some rather strenuous disagreements
with several of the other users, but I would leave it at that and suggest
that the user making the inquiry can research it himself on DejaNews if he
wants a more complete picture. Probably he won't, and his curiosity will
be sufficiently satisfied. You and Conrad are probably the most objective
of the long time regulars, but I think that you would be the logical
choice, for reasons that are obvious to the rest of us long time
regulars. :)
grimgard
grimgard
"Öjevind Lång" wrote:
> That sounds like a very nice idea, Conrad. And ten we can invite MM to hold
> the inaugural speech.
>
> Öjevind
Heh, yeah. He could wear Gary Gilmore's old T-shirt. :)
grimgard
grimgard
Ermanna wrote:
*Everybody* is nice to a Jedi Knight.
grimgard
grimgard
Joan McCaull wrote:
> I may be one of those people who have been put offthe group by the lack of
> politeness. I dearly want to take some part in the discussions. Joan
> McCaull8$E4.16937@uchinews...
Join in, Joan. We almost never bite on the first date. :)
grimgard
Tamf Moo
miserable oyster:
>> There seems to be a general agreement that the TEUNCmoot will begin in
>> Copenhagen on Sunday 8 July and end on Saturday 14 July.
>
>I am not very far away, maybe I could come if my precence is tolerated :)
of course it will be! prepare to take a light trasking, though. but we'll
give you CHOKLIT to heal your wounds afterwards.
--
Tamf the lellow moodragon
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.
Tuor
"grimgard" <grim...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3AB91DB9...@prodigy.net...
[snip]
> I don't know, Steuard, it's anice thought but, for better or for worse,
> Michael is a signifigant part of the history of AFT and RABT. Usually
> such comments are just between us old timers, but it seems inevitable that
> they will occasionally arise and that, once in a while, one of the
> newcomers will be curious enough to ask. I agree that adding him to the
> FAQ would be in poor taste, especially since he would almost certainly
> disapprove, but here's a possible alternative solution: elect one regular
> on the group to respond to such questions via private e-mail with a brief
> objective paragraph stating that Michael is a former user, that he was
> extremely prolific, that he was very knowledgeable about Tolkien and that
> he left the group some months ago. It seems reasonable to also mention,
> as politely as possible, that he had some rather strenuous disagreements
> with several of the other users, but I would leave it at that and suggest
> that the user making the inquiry can research it himself on DejaNews if he
> wants a more complete picture. Probably he won't, and his curiosity will
> be sufficiently satisfied. You and Conrad are probably the most objective
> of the long time regulars, but I think that you would be the logical
> choice, for reasons that are obvious to the rest of us long time
> regulars. :)
I disagree, Grimgard. I think it would be better to let sleeping dogs lie.
If you make MM part of the FAQ, that will provide an opening of discussion
for everyone who reads it. They're going to want to know about the
arguements, the flames, and all of the other unpleasant things that occurred
back then.
MM doesn't show up too often. We don't really make that many references to
him in posts and the occassional jibs rarely rise to the level where people
become too curious about him. I would prefer it to stay that way. The
current uprising of nostalgia was brought on by a rare MM post. I think it
will fade away again and that we ought to let that happen and not prolong it
by making it part of the FAQ. I think Steuard feels the same way (though
for different reasons, perhaps).
Anyhow, I'm against the idea.
Tuor
Öjevind Lång
Of course! :-)
Öjevind
Conrad Dunkerson
news:3AB8B358...@erols.com...
> By all means, talk! We're really very nice!
Factual Correction: >Ermanna< is really very nice. Most of the
rest of us can make a passable show of it when the mood strikes
us. :)
But by all means... please, join in Joan.
Raven
news:3AB83A74...@erols.com...
> I WANT EQUAL TIME!!!!
> If *he* goes in, then so do I! Perhaps a question along the lines of,
> "Who is the most unyielding and vocal right-winger in the NGs?"
Aww, you're our pet reactionary. When the revolution comes and the
reactionaries are lined up against the wall and shot, you will be
spared, and given bananas, coconuts and t-bone steaks by our children.
I assume that t-bone steaks are still safe in Merkia, though BSE has
made them, ah, less than ideal for human consumption in Urope. A safe
and mellow right-winger such as you!
<ducks>
<ducks again>
<fetches the band-aid>
Corvo.
Jon
Ermanna <jsol...@erols.com> wrote:
> Joan McCaull wrote:
> > I may be one of those people who have been put offthe group by the lack of
> > politeness. I dearly want to take some part in the discussions.
> By all means, talk! We're really very nice!
All TEUNC is nice......honest.
Jon.
--
_ _ _
/ \ / \ / \ jgh...@argonet.co.uk * j...@acornarcade.com
( J | o | n )http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/jghall/
\_/ \_/ \_/ 7, High Street, Balrog Cuttings, TEUNC.
Conrad Dunkerson
news:3AB91DB9...@prodigy.net...
> I don't know, Steuard, it's anice thought but, for better or for
> worse, Michael is a signifigant part of the history of AFT and
> RABT.
"Melkor's final impotence and despair lay in this: that whereas
the Valar (and in their degree Elves and Men) could still love
'Arda Marred', that is Arda with a Melkor-ingredient, and could
still heal this or that hurt, or produce from its very marring,
from its state as it was, things beautiful and lovely, Melkor
could do nothing with Arda, which was not from his own mind and
was interwoven with the work and thoughts of others..."
MR, Myths Transformed - Text VII
> You and Conrad are probably the most objective of the long time
> regulars, but I think that you would be the logical choice, for
> reasons that are obvious to the rest of us long time
> regulars. :)
I can't imagine what you might be referring to. :)
Conrad Dunkerson
news:3AB80943...@erols.com...
> What!? Stan, the "no-so-serious" things you snipped from
> Conrad's post are as follows:
Well, in some ways I understand Stan's viewpoint here. The
issues I listed were all specifics... the 'damage' was isolated
to particular individuals, whereas debating style (or rather, a
style which denies the possibility of debate) affected almost
everyone who interacted with Michael. In any case, the problems
ran deeper than mere flamage.
Paul Shenton
"Tamim Khawaja" <tamim....@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:99b4gp$1dl$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> In alt.fan.tolkien "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> > the softrat hath written:
>
> > [snip]
>
> >>There is a second TEUNCmoot in the late planning stages right now. In
> >>Copenhagen in August I believe. Ask Ole.
>
> > There seems to be a general agreement that the TEUNCmoot will begin in
> > Copenhagen on Sunday 8 July and end on Saturday 14 July.
>
14 on route home from Mother Russia.
Paul.
joe bader
Were you the one writing all the delightful poetry?
sonufagun
the softrat
wrote:
>In article <3AB8B358...@erols.com>,
> Ermanna <jsol...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> Joan McCaull wrote:
>> > I may be one of those people who have been put offthe group by the lack of
>> > politeness. I dearly want to take some part in the discussions.
>
>> By all means, talk! We're really very nice!
>
>All TEUNC is nice......honest.
>
Sod off!
the softrat
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"The POP3 server service depends on the SMTP server service,
which failed to start because of the following error: The
operation completed successfully." (Windows NT Server v3.51)
the softrat
wrote:
>> In alt.fan.tolkien "Öjevind Lång" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>> >
>> > There seems to be a general agreement that the TEUNCmoot will begin in
>> > Copenhagen on Sunday 8 July and end on Saturday 14 July.
>>
>Could it possibly be moved to Helsinki? I will be in Finland on July 13 and
>14 on route home from Mother Russia.
>
What hotel in Helsinki?
the softrat
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
Give your child mental blocks for Christmas.
China Blue Screen of Death
Are you referring to
http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/fyrenbryda/maeden.html
Tamim Khawaja
>>Could it possibly be moved to Helsinki? I will be in Finland on July 13 and
>>14 on route home from Mother Russia.
Great idea.
>>
> Sure. Except that no one else will be there.
except me and Blackhope.
> What hotel in Helsinki?
There are several decent ones even in here, backside of nowhere.
> the softrat
> mailto:sof...@pobox.com
> --
Tamim
joe bader
it.
Thanks for the link!
Donald Shepherd
<nospam-...@corpoman.buyandsell.ie> wrote:
>
>"David Flood" <nospam-...@corpoman.buyandsell.ie> wrote in message
><snip>I 'lurked' since December 1999, only occasionally
>> posting here or there
>
>- as "Daithi_F", for anyone remotely interested ;-)
>
>I Trolled on us.military.army for a while (great fun : ), where *truly* the
>strangest people hang out... and occasionally visit
>rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan, for my sins...
raswrj... Now there, if anyone has a spare hour or two, is a newsgroup
where almost every thread degenerates into making stupid comments that
only a select group of long time posters understand. Also rather
vicious, but apart from about ten of the more frequent posters, many
of the people are worth the effort. I just wish I could say the same
about the threads.
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>>
>> >>There is a second TEUNCmoot in the late planning stages right now. In
>> >>Copenhagen in August I believe. Ask Ole.
>>
>> > There seems to be a general agreement that the TEUNCmoot will begin in
>> > Copenhagen on Sunday 8 July and end on Saturday 14 July.
>>
>Could it possibly be moved to Helsinki? I will be in Finland on July 13
and
>14 on route home from Mother Russia.
I am afraid the planning has advanced beyond the point where we can reopen
the question of where to hold the Teuncmoot.
Öjevind
Michael O'Neill
Is it a nice city?
M.
Kristian Damm Jensen
At that time of the year, yes. Unless we have one of those un-summers
where it rains most of the time.
The centre is small (you can walk the length and breath of it in 15
minutes), lots of nice places to get a cup of coffee or a glass of beer.
For more information try:
http://www.aok.dk/Copenhagen/Visiting_Copenhagen/
--
Kristian Damm Jensen | Feed the hungry. Go to
kristian-d...@capgemini.dk | http://www.thehungersite.com
Blackhope
Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä ...
>"Ermanna" <jsol...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:3AB8B358...@erols.com...
>
>> By all means, talk! We're really very nice!
>
>Factual Correction: >Ermanna< is really very nice. Most of the
>rest of us can make a passable show of it when the mood strikes
>us. :)
Another Correction: Ermanna just goes directly from very nice to
Light-Sabre chops off body parts. :)
Morgil Blackhope
Tamim Khawaja
> At that time of the year, yes. Unless we have one of those un-summers
> where it rains most of the time.
> The centre is small (you can walk the length and breath of it in 15
> minutes), lots of nice places to get a cup of coffee or a glass of beer.
snip
And then there is Kristianstad :)
David Flood
news:wr4u6.3149$341....@nntpserver.swip.net...
> the softrat hath written:
>
> [snip]
>
> >There is a second TEUNCmoot in the late planning stages right now. In
> >Copenhagen in August I believe. Ask Ole.
>
> There seems to be a general agreement that the TEUNCmoot will begin in
> Copenhagen on Sunday 8 July and end on Saturday 14 July.
>
> Öjevind
What's TEUNC, and following on from that what's TEUNCmoot ???
Daithí
David Flood
news:3ab9c0a9...@news.uq.edu.au...
> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:50:14 -0000, "David Flood"
> >I Trolled on us.military.army for a while (great fun : ), where *truly*
the
> >strangest people hang out... and occasionally visit
> >rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan, for my sins...
> raswrj... Now there, if anyone has a spare hour or two, is a newsgroup
> where almost every thread degenerates into making stupid comments that
> only a select group of long time posters understand.
*That's* because of the convoluted twists and turns of what *used to be* a
plot, but is now getting to be only comprehensible to someone with either a
photographic memory, or incredibly high IQ...
I don't think anyone in that group would relish the task of even trying to
count the number of sub-plots and threads which are in the story now, after
nine or ten books; let alone understand how all of them relate to each
other - some threads re-appear only every couple of books.
> Also rather
> vicious, but apart from about ten of the more frequent posters, many
> of the people are worth the effort. I just wish I could say the same
> about the threads.
>
> Donald Shepherd
Discussions in this group *do* go on and on (and on and on...) but that's
because the series is ongoing (has been for the last decade, as I (tiredly)
know). Jordan also usually makes a complete u-turn on some bedrock
assumption of the series every book, as the idle notion takes him. The
result? A bloody good start has turned into a complete, bogged down mess...
even his fans are getting tired of this, and bitchin'.
Besides, rasfwrj isn't that bad for Jordanites, apart from the frequent
descent into *long* discussions on American politics and issues. You should
try afr-j (alt.fan.robert-jordan for real "alt-ness", never mind AFT ; )
Daithí
Jim
Flame of the West <jsol...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3AB83A74...@erols.com...
> > Here's my
> > point: over the past few months, I've had several people suggest (on
> > the groups or in email) that "Who was MM?" be added to the FAQ.
>
> I WANT EQUAL TIME!!!!
>
> If *he* goes in, then so do I! Perhaps a question along the lines of,
> "Who is the most unyielding and vocal right-winger in the NGs?"
Perhaps a 'Who's who in AFT/RABT' written by someone else and linked from
the FAQ would be in order?
(Not to mention potentially hillarious if done sarcasticaly)
Jim D
grimgard
Tuor wrote:
You apparently misread my suggestion.
grimgard
Michael O'Neill
>
> Michael O'Neill wrote:
> >
> > Öjevind Lång wrote:
> > >
> > > the softrat hath written:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > >There is a second TEUNCmoot in the late planning stages right now. In
> > > >Copenhagen in August I believe. Ask Ole.
> > >
> > > There seems to be a general agreement that the TEUNCmoot will begin in
> > > Copenhagen on Sunday 8 July and end on Saturday 14 July.
> > >
> > > Öjevind
> >
> > Is it a nice city?
>
> At that time of the year, yes. Unless we have one of those un-summers
> where it rains most of the time.
>
> The centre is small (you can walk the length and breath of it in 15
> minutes), lots of nice places to get a cup of coffee or a glass of beer.
Ah yes, you 8would* say that wouldn't you :-)
> For more information try:
> http://www.aok.dk/Copenhagen/Visiting_Copenhagen/
Thanks for the link.
Skol.
M.
Michael O'Neill
Coming from a guy that at least one major Tribunal has been named after,
you shore dew ask a loat of queastions boah!
*I* apparently am considered one of the founding fathers [why I'm not
quite sure...], although I might share connubial bliss with the
erstwhile Mr. Martinez, since if he hadn't banished the members of what
was to be TEUNC to the Outer Void, the group would never have been
formed.
Part of the E-Groups hierarchy, TEUNC is famed for many reasons, ehrm,
none of which immediately spring to mind. ALl I can say is, if you've
never read back over a transcript from a TEUNC mIRC evening, you really
haven't lived!
<Or understood psychology through English>
All other questions shall be referred to the Weird Ones in aft.
Whaddyamean, you can't tell which ones???!!!
<sheesh!>
M.
the softrat
<nospam-...@corpoman.buyandsell.ie> wrote:
>
>What's TEUNC, and following on from that what's TEUNCmoot ???
>
Tolkien-Eccentric-Unusual-Nut-Cases
and
the mooting thereof.
(Of course any idiot may participate, even an Irishman.)
[For details see O'Nil, Michael, our RIA representative.]
the softrat
mailto:sof...@pobox.com
--
"My God! The thought of that evil man, loose in London--with
money, from God only knows what source--fomenting riot and
rebellion during a public emergency--and in control of an
Engine-driven press! It's nighmarish!" (Gibson-Sterling, "The
Difference Engine")
Donald Shepherd
Oh I do. Average numbers of posts read per day on that newsgroup:
0-1. Simply because I try to avoid anything not about Jordan so I
have time to do something (anything) else.
Donald Shepherd
<donald_...@hotmail.com>
Ermanna
I've _threatened_! I never actually hurt anyone! And they were all jokes!
> Morgil Blackhope
Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight
Elbereth Gilthoniel!
Paul Shenton
I was not given ample notice to put forward my nomination for Helsinki as
this year's host city for the TEUNCMoot. I protest. I believe that proper
notice is required pursuant to rule III(a)(iii), chapter 12(b)(17)(ii),
paragraph 34(b), subparagraph (m)(ii), footnote
(1)(ii)(34)(des)(ii)(vii)(11)(b).
Please guide yourself accordingly
Paul Shenton.
Kuei...@hotmail.complete
wrote:
Oh, yeah! Well, you cut off my head!
::looking around, sorta::
Well, I got better.
--
"Baron (delighted)
Capital, capital! What a sense of humor you have!
Shadow
I am so glad that somebody has found that out."
Casella and Ferris: "Death Takes a Holiday"
william henry hsu
...
>It ~was~ pretty savage, I have to say,
Is this what is meant by "time and tilde wait for no man"?
> though some of them are *bloody*
>funny, as well... ('insults' and 'satire' were an actual art form in Gaelic
>culture, the tradition lives on in many *fine* practitioners today (Mr.
>O'Neill take a bow? ;-)
>Daith?
-Bill
=======================================================
William H. Hsu, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of CIS, Kansas State University
Research Scientist, Automated Learning Group, NCSA
bh...@cis.ksu.edu, bh...@ncsa.uiuc.edu
http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~bhsu ICQ: 28651394
=======================================================
David Flood
news:5hokbt4622bs3bdod...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:53:07 -0000, "David Flood"
> <nospam-...@corpoman.buyandsell.ie> wrote:
> >
> >What's TEUNC, and following on from that what's TEUNCmoot ???
> >
> (Oh, God! Another clueless Irishman.....)
> Tolkien-Eccentric-Unusual-Nut-Cases
> and
> the mooting thereof.
Found TEUNC on Google, after a *lot* of broken links - this seems to be your
main colony - http://softrat.home.mindspring.com/TEUNC/TEUNC.html...
> (Of course any idiot may participate, even an Irishman.)
>
> [For details see O'Nil, Michael, our RIA representative.]
>
> the softrat
> mailto:sof...@pobox.com
Can I be the WWLA rep???
Daithí
David Flood
news:3ABA6D4F...@indigo.ie...
> David Flood wrote:
<snip>
> > What's TEUNC, and following on from that what's TEUNCmoot ???
> >
> > Daithí
>
> Coming from a guy that at least one major Tribunal has been named after,
> you shore dew ask a loat of queastions boah!
Humour me - I've got a lot of termbreak coursework to put off doing ;-)
> *I* apparently am considered one of the founding fathers [why I'm not
> quite sure...], although I might share connubial bliss with the
> erstwhile Mr. Martinez, since if he hadn't banished the members of what
> was to be TEUNC to the Outer Void, the group would never have been
> formed.
Was there a Kinslaying? Who pronounced the Doom???
> Part of the E-Groups hierarchy, TEUNC is famed for many reasons, ehrm,
> none of which immediately spring to mind. ALl I can say is, if you've
> never read back over a transcript from a TEUNC mIRC evening, you really
> haven't lived!
Found them, after *many* broken links - these Exiles <at first glance> seem
to be a dying breed, with only a few refuges left... : (
> <Or understood psychology through English>
>
> All other questions shall be referred to the Weird Ones in aft.
> Whaddyamean, you can't tell which ones???!!!
<weirdness must be relative> ;-)
Daithí
> <sheesh!>
>
> M.
Öjevind Lång
[snip]
>
>Found TEUNC on Google, after a *lot* of broken links - this seems to be
your
>main colony - http://softrat.home.mindspring.com/TEUNC/TEUNC.html...
That is the official TEUNC Page, but our home is at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teunc. And that's where you apply for
membership, if such a bizarre idea should ever occur to you.
Öjevind
Flame of the West
Blackhope wrote:
> Another Correction: Ermanna just goes directly from very nice to
> Light-Sabre chops off body parts. :)
Obi-wan was the same way in the Cantina. Jedi are just like that.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth.
Kristian Damm Jensen
I suppose you are referring to Christiania, located on military soil in
a part of Copenhagen known as Christianshavn.
Kristianstad used to be the name of the city now known to the world as
Oslo, I believe.