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The Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies (SPOILERS!)
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Sandman
Dec 10, 2014, 6:00:36 AM12/10/14
to
So, went on the premiere like I always does. Here's some thoughts. Not
though, that this is filled with spoilers.
First of all, the movie was as good as could be expected, knowing the
possible weaknesses it must have (more on that below).
A note though - this is the *only* LotR/TH movie to not start with a
flashback. This felt pretty weird to me.
The movie starts with Smaug's assault on Laketown, this is a rather
underwhelming part, since in short he breathes some fire and then is shot
down by Bard. End of Smaug. It is clearly bad pacing due to the fact that
two movies became three movies. I feel that Smaug deserved more screentime
in the final movie, which meant we should have seen less of him in the
middle movie.
We then cut to Erebor where Thorin is busy being mad by "dragon sickness",
which is a bit forced from his battle sequence at the end of the last
movie. It's more or less in line with the book, so I won't whine about it
too much.
In Dol Goldur, Galadriel show up to rescue Gandalf, after which the nine
ringwraiths appear. And this is really poorly done. They appear as
translucent "ghosts" in mid-air and float about like no one's business. But
we already have a precedent how they are supposed to look *if you can see
them*. As we know, they are invisible without their cloaks (which they're
not wearing). And if you want to argue that the members of the White
Council should be able to see them, then at least they should look like how
Frodo sees them on Weathertop.
Elrond and Saruman also appear and a fight squence ensues where Elrond
fights them with a sword and Saruman with his staff. When defeated
(whatever that means) Sauron appears and "resurrects" them (whatever that
means) and says that darkness is coming. Galadriel then switch to her "dark
queen" mode and use what appears to be the Light of Earendil to banish
Sauron from Dol Goldur. The entire sequence is rather quick and a bit
unsatisfactory. I had hoped for this to be more of an event where the white
council drives Sauron from Dol Goldur.
After this, we are back at Erebor, and since we've exhausted every other
possible location, the rest of the is from this location (with a small
departure to Gundabad for Legolas and Tauriel).
So the people of Laketown trek up to Dale, and Thranduil's army also
marches there. They both (Thranduil and Bard) confront Thorin and asks him
to honor his agreement to Laketown, and return to "heirloom" to Thranduil.
Thorin refuses and both sides prepare for war.
Bilbo sneaks out of Erebor and brings the Arcenstone to Bard and Thranduil
for leverage against Thorin, which enraged Thorin even more, denouncing
Bilbo. He declares war against men and elves when the Iron hill dwarves
arrive.
Soon thereafter the orcs attack, so there is no war between dwarves and
elves, but no outspoke alliance between them either as in the book. It is
only after a small hesitation that Thranduil joins the attack on the orcs,
prompted by Gandalf.
Thorin at this time sulks inside his mountain, but he (literally) shakes
off his sickness and even though they had armed up for war before, they now
join the charge when all seems lost, but not wearing the battle armor they
earlier put on. Weird.
The events that follows aren't too far from the book. We have the
obligatory stand-off between Thorin and Azog, the demise of Fili and Kili
and Legolas fights Bolg. This all happens on top of a mountainside/tower
instead of in the battlefield but that was allright by me.
All in all, this may have been the movie adaptation of Tolkien's work that
stayed the most true to its source material. That said, there are some
things that stand out, here's a few:
Tauriel and Kili
While a love affair between an elf and a dwarve is pretty outlandish to
begin with, even if the dwarf is as handsome as Kili, it is taken to
unreasonable heights in this movie. It was merely hinted at in the last
movie, which was, well "ok". Here it is outright "true love" and when Kili
is killed, Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and they've met, what, three
times? Please.
Were-worms
The orcs arrive on the battlefield through tunnels created by large
worm-like stone-eating created. These are as far as I know invented for the
movie and makes no sense. If a huge worm creates a hold through a mountain,
how is it that an army can spill out of the hole directly after, isn't the
worm occupying the hole?
Alfrid
The comic relief sidekick of the master of lake town, he's way over the top
and every scene with him is pure agony.
Beorn
There was every reason for Beorn to have a larger role here, he is the one
that brings back the mortally wounded Thorin the book, he is the one that
crashes throught the defense of Bolg. In the movie, he is dropped as a man
by the eagles, transforms in mid-air, charges a rank of orcs and is never
seen again. Damn.
Huge "trolls"
When the second wave of orc's arrive, they bring with them enormous trolls
with large catapults on their backs. This feels like just an obvious
throwback to the Mumakil of LotR, but luckily we don't have Legolas killing
one without breaking a sweat. :)
All in all, it was a very enjoyable film, with some pacing issues, but
there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape from Misty Mountains or
barrel-ride in the first two movies.
It ends with Bilbo back home, and connecting with the LotR movies in a nice
and neat way. And there aren't 12 endings :)
--
Sandman[.net]
though, that this is filled with spoilers.
First of all, the movie was as good as could be expected, knowing the
possible weaknesses it must have (more on that below).
A note though - this is the *only* LotR/TH movie to not start with a
flashback. This felt pretty weird to me.
The movie starts with Smaug's assault on Laketown, this is a rather
underwhelming part, since in short he breathes some fire and then is shot
down by Bard. End of Smaug. It is clearly bad pacing due to the fact that
two movies became three movies. I feel that Smaug deserved more screentime
in the final movie, which meant we should have seen less of him in the
middle movie.
We then cut to Erebor where Thorin is busy being mad by "dragon sickness",
which is a bit forced from his battle sequence at the end of the last
movie. It's more or less in line with the book, so I won't whine about it
too much.
In Dol Goldur, Galadriel show up to rescue Gandalf, after which the nine
ringwraiths appear. And this is really poorly done. They appear as
translucent "ghosts" in mid-air and float about like no one's business. But
we already have a precedent how they are supposed to look *if you can see
them*. As we know, they are invisible without their cloaks (which they're
not wearing). And if you want to argue that the members of the White
Council should be able to see them, then at least they should look like how
Frodo sees them on Weathertop.
Elrond and Saruman also appear and a fight squence ensues where Elrond
fights them with a sword and Saruman with his staff. When defeated
(whatever that means) Sauron appears and "resurrects" them (whatever that
means) and says that darkness is coming. Galadriel then switch to her "dark
queen" mode and use what appears to be the Light of Earendil to banish
Sauron from Dol Goldur. The entire sequence is rather quick and a bit
unsatisfactory. I had hoped for this to be more of an event where the white
council drives Sauron from Dol Goldur.
After this, we are back at Erebor, and since we've exhausted every other
possible location, the rest of the is from this location (with a small
departure to Gundabad for Legolas and Tauriel).
So the people of Laketown trek up to Dale, and Thranduil's army also
marches there. They both (Thranduil and Bard) confront Thorin and asks him
to honor his agreement to Laketown, and return to "heirloom" to Thranduil.
Thorin refuses and both sides prepare for war.
Bilbo sneaks out of Erebor and brings the Arcenstone to Bard and Thranduil
for leverage against Thorin, which enraged Thorin even more, denouncing
Bilbo. He declares war against men and elves when the Iron hill dwarves
arrive.
Soon thereafter the orcs attack, so there is no war between dwarves and
elves, but no outspoke alliance between them either as in the book. It is
only after a small hesitation that Thranduil joins the attack on the orcs,
prompted by Gandalf.
Thorin at this time sulks inside his mountain, but he (literally) shakes
off his sickness and even though they had armed up for war before, they now
join the charge when all seems lost, but not wearing the battle armor they
earlier put on. Weird.
The events that follows aren't too far from the book. We have the
obligatory stand-off between Thorin and Azog, the demise of Fili and Kili
and Legolas fights Bolg. This all happens on top of a mountainside/tower
instead of in the battlefield but that was allright by me.
All in all, this may have been the movie adaptation of Tolkien's work that
stayed the most true to its source material. That said, there are some
things that stand out, here's a few:
Tauriel and Kili
While a love affair between an elf and a dwarve is pretty outlandish to
begin with, even if the dwarf is as handsome as Kili, it is taken to
unreasonable heights in this movie. It was merely hinted at in the last
movie, which was, well "ok". Here it is outright "true love" and when Kili
is killed, Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and they've met, what, three
times? Please.
Were-worms
The orcs arrive on the battlefield through tunnels created by large
worm-like stone-eating created. These are as far as I know invented for the
movie and makes no sense. If a huge worm creates a hold through a mountain,
how is it that an army can spill out of the hole directly after, isn't the
worm occupying the hole?
Alfrid
The comic relief sidekick of the master of lake town, he's way over the top
and every scene with him is pure agony.
Beorn
There was every reason for Beorn to have a larger role here, he is the one
that brings back the mortally wounded Thorin the book, he is the one that
crashes throught the defense of Bolg. In the movie, he is dropped as a man
by the eagles, transforms in mid-air, charges a rank of orcs and is never
seen again. Damn.
Huge "trolls"
When the second wave of orc's arrive, they bring with them enormous trolls
with large catapults on their backs. This feels like just an obvious
throwback to the Mumakil of LotR, but luckily we don't have Legolas killing
one without breaking a sweat. :)
All in all, it was a very enjoyable film, with some pacing issues, but
there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape from Misty Mountains or
barrel-ride in the first two movies.
It ends with Bilbo back home, and connecting with the LotR movies in a nice
and neat way. And there aren't 12 endings :)
--
Sandman[.net]
Paul S. Person
Dec 10, 2014, 1:28:27 PM12/10/14
to
On 10 Dec 2014 11:00:35 GMT, Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>So, went on the premiere like I always does. Here's some thoughts. Not
>though, that this is filled with spoilers.
I won't get to see it until next week. *sigh*
>So, went on the premiere like I always does. Here's some thoughts. Not
>though, that this is filled with spoilers.
>First of all, the movie was as good as could be expected, knowing the
>possible weaknesses it must have (more on that below).
>
>A note though - this is the *only* LotR/TH movie to not start with a
>flashback. This felt pretty weird to me.
put it. (I would have thought, if "thought" is the word, a bit of
background on Dain might have suggested itself.)
>The movie starts with Smaug's assault on Laketown, this is a rather
>underwhelming part, since in short he breathes some fire and then is shot
>down by Bard. End of Smaug. It is clearly bad pacing due to the fact that
>two movies became three movies. I feel that Smaug deserved more screentime
>in the final movie, which meant we should have seen less of him in the
>middle movie.
gold bath.
So, it /is/ Bard (imprisoned in the second film, IIRC) and not his son
who gets Smaug?
>We then cut to Erebor where Thorin is busy being mad by "dragon sickness",
>which is a bit forced from his battle sequence at the end of the last
>movie. It's more or less in line with the book, so I won't whine about it
>too much.
consistent with the book. Changed a bit, no doubt, to make it into a
film, but that almost always happens.
>In Dol Goldur, Galadriel show up to rescue Gandalf, after which the nine
>ringwraiths appear. And this is really poorly done. They appear as
>translucent "ghosts" in mid-air and float about like no one's business. But
>we already have a precedent how they are supposed to look *if you can see
>them*. As we know, they are invisible without their cloaks (which they're
>not wearing). And if you want to argue that the members of the White
>Council should be able to see them, then at least they should look like how
>Frodo sees them on Weathertop.
oh, sorry, that was the Emperor in another movie.
>Elrond and Saruman also appear and a fight squence ensues where Elrond
>fights them with a sword and Saruman with his staff. When defeated
>(whatever that means) Sauron appears and "resurrects" them (whatever that
>means) and says that darkness is coming. Galadriel then switch to her "dark
>queen" mode and use what appears to be the Light of Earendil to banish
>Sauron from Dol Goldur. The entire sequence is rather quick and a bit
>unsatisfactory. I had hoped for this to be more of an event where the white
>council drives Sauron from Dol Goldur.
found they had gone done a wrong path and were trying to get out of it
as quickly as possible. Then again, my immediate reaction to reading
about it is "the shorter the better". What I will think when I see it
remains to be seen; it may well seem rushed to me as well.
>After this, we are back at Erebor, and since we've exhausted every other
>possible location, the rest of the is from this location (with a small
>departure to Gundabad for Legolas and Tauriel).
>
>So the people of Laketown trek up to Dale, and Thranduil's army also
>marches there. They both (Thranduil and Bard) confront Thorin and asks him
>to honor his agreement to Laketown, and return to "heirloom" to Thranduil.
>Thorin refuses and both sides prepare for war.
>
>Bilbo sneaks out of Erebor and brings the Arcenstone to Bard and Thranduil
>for leverage against Thorin, which enraged Thorin even more, denouncing
>Bilbo. He declares war against men and elves when the Iron hill dwarves
>arrive.
>
>Soon thereafter the orcs attack, so there is no war between dwarves and
>elves, but no outspoke alliance between them either as in the book. It is
>only after a small hesitation that Thranduil joins the attack on the orcs,
>prompted by Gandalf.
>
>Thorin at this time sulks inside his mountain, but he (literally) shakes
>off his sickness and even though they had armed up for war before, they now
>join the charge when all seems lost, but not wearing the battle armor they
>earlier put on. Weird.
/precisely/ in order to avoid these glitches.
Then again, it was a similar failure, IIRC, that led to the use of
while light when Arwen met Frodo (the story was, IIRC, that the extra
who rode the horse was wearing the wrong costume, so the while light
was used to avoid having Arwen change her outfit "like magic" on
camera). This, in turn, signaled the end of all those attacks on
Bakshi for associating "Elf" with "f-stop": Bakshi's effect was
literally overwhelmed by the use of while light in FOTR.
>The events that follows aren't too far from the book. We have the
>obligatory stand-off between Thorin and Azog, the demise of Fili and Kili
>and Legolas fights Bolg. This all happens on top of a mountainside/tower
>instead of in the battlefield but that was allright by me.
>
>All in all, this may have been the movie adaptation of Tolkien's work that
>stayed the most true to its source material. That said, there are some
>things that stand out, here's a few:
>Tauriel and Kili
>While a love affair between an elf and a dwarve is pretty outlandish to
>begin with, even if the dwarf is as handsome as Kili, it is taken to
>unreasonable heights in this movie. It was merely hinted at in the last
>movie, which was, well "ok". Here it is outright "true love" and when Kili
>is killed, Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and they've met, what, three
>times? Please.
for that matter. It may or may not be in real life, but a film with
Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, Orcs and other oddities isn't exactly "real
life", now is it?
And not just chick flicks/rom-coms; consider /The Fisher King/. "It's
like they were made for each other." Or even /The King and I/: the
song "Some enchanted evening".
>Were-worms
>The orcs arrive on the battlefield through tunnels created by large
>worm-like stone-eating created. These are as far as I know invented for the
>movie and makes no sense. If a huge worm creates a hold through a mountain,
>how is it that an army can spill out of the hole directly after, isn't the
>worm occupying the hole?
above, and they just run through it.
>Alfrid
>The comic relief sidekick of the master of lake town, he's way over the top
>and every scene with him is pure agony.
>Beorn
>There was every reason for Beorn to have a larger role here, he is the one
>that brings back the mortally wounded Thorin the book, he is the one that
>crashes throught the defense of Bolg. In the movie, he is dropped as a man
>by the eagles, transforms in mid-air, charges a rank of orcs and is never
>seen again. Damn.
He wasn't in the Rankin-Bass version at all.
>Huge "trolls"
>When the second wave of orc's arrive, they bring with them enormous trolls
>with large catapults on their backs. This feels like just an obvious
>throwback to the Mumakil of LotR, but luckily we don't have Legolas killing
>one without breaking a sweat. :)
Also, in the trailer, they appeared to be immune to sunlight.
Perhaps the theory is that, since the Uruk-hai can resist the sun, so
can the Oleg-hai.
And you have to have /some/ sort of transport for the artillery.
>All in all, it was a very enjoyable film, with some pacing issues, but
>there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape from Misty Mountains or
>barrel-ride in the first two movies.
>It ends with Bilbo back home, and connecting with the LotR movies in a nice
>and neat way. And there aren't 12 endings :)
I don't know about anyone else, but I have always felt that,
cinematically, the end of /ROTK/ should have been all of Gondor
kneeling (or was it bowing?) to the Hobbits. The other endings were
nice to see, but not really part of the movie. IMHO, of course.
The /worst/ part of the Rankin-Bass version, for me, is the ending,
where Gandalf clearly /knows/ what ring (or, rather, Ring) Bilbo
found.
I still enjoy the Rankin-Bass version every time I see it. Or hear it:
I bought a two-disc LP set when it came out that has the entire
soundtrack (not just the music, the words and sound effects as well)
on it, and enjoy listening to it from time to time as well.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Sandman
Dec 10, 2014, 4:32:03 PM12/10/14
to
In article <4f2h8a935f46jgg1v...@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person wrote:
> > Sandman:
the entire chase sequence in Erebor was added as a result. With two movies,
the second movie would have started with them entering Erebor and
confronting Smaug, and there would have been no need for such a scene, the
desolation of Laketown would have sufficed.
> So, it /is/ Bard (imprisoned in the second film, IIRC) and not his
> son who gets Smaug?
Yup, his son helps though. :)
> > Sandman:
scenes in Dol Goldur and a sidestep to Gundabad, it's pretty much all
there, which is nice.
> > Sandman:
> > Sandman:
Oh, time over for supper!
> > Sandman:
around Erebor, and confront them in full golden armor, looks awesome. Then
the Ironihill dwarves arrive and THorin just retreats back into the
mountain. Apparently all dwarves removes their armour, frustrated that they
can't join the battle, so when THorin comes around, they have their normal
garb.
> > Sandman:
with "instant true love" still have scenes that establish the love to be
true, which Kili+Tauriel severly lacks. We'll see what the Extended Edition
brings to the table.
> And not just chick flicks/rom-coms; consider /The Fisher King/.
> "It's like they were made for each other." Or even /The King and I/:
> the song "Some enchanted evening".
Been a while since I saw either, so can't comment.
> > Sandman:
> > Sandman:
size as the cave troll in Moria.
> Also, in the trailer, they appeared to be immune to sunlight.
Yeah, sunlight has no effect on either trolls or orc's in this movie, and
Gandlaf even comment on a lot of the orcs being orcs of Mordor, however
that is even possible.
> Perhaps the theory is that, since the Uruk-hai can resist the sun,
> so can the Oleg-hai.
That's not the theory, it's all according to Tolkien himself, Olog-hai was
bred by Sauron for that very purpose.
> And you have to have /some/ sort of transport for the artillery.
The artillery-trolls aren't Olog-hai though. At least not Olog-hai as
earlier depicted in the movies. They are something like five times their
size, about the same size as a Mumakil actually.
I think it's just a typical case of repeating something popular, or
visually effective. The entrance of the Mumakil was awesome in RotK, so
they wanted to recreate that.
> > Sandman:
cliffside in a physic-violating manner, but it's short and not at all like
any of the scenes inthe earlier two movies.
> > Sandman:
> I don't know about anyone else, but I have always felt that,
> cinematically, the end of /ROTK/ should have been all of Gondor
> kneeling (or was it bowing?) to the Hobbits. The other endings were
> nice to see, but not really part of the movie. IMHO, of course.
True, but the scene of the last ship feels important as well.
> The /worst/ part of the Rankin-Bass version, for me, is the ending,
> where Gandalf clearly /knows/ what ring (or, rather, Ring) Bilbo
> found.
Here he doesn't. He talks to Bilbo, and let's him know he's aware that
Bilbo has a magic ring, but there is nothing to make it seem like he knows
or suspects that it's the One Ring.
--
Sandman[.net]
> > Sandman:
> > The movie starts with Smaug's assault on Laketown, this is a
> > rather underwhelming part, since in short he breathes some fire
> > and then is shot down by Bard. End of Smaug. It is clearly bad
> > pacing due to the fact that two movies became three movies. I feel
> > that Smaug deserved more screentime in the final movie, which
> > meant we should have seen less of him in the middle movie.
>
> I think they were too busy giving him a nice, warm, vermin-killing
> gold bath.
It's the other way around. When it was decided it would be three movies,
> > rather underwhelming part, since in short he breathes some fire
> > and then is shot down by Bard. End of Smaug. It is clearly bad
> > pacing due to the fact that two movies became three movies. I feel
> > that Smaug deserved more screentime in the final movie, which
> > meant we should have seen less of him in the middle movie.
>
> I think they were too busy giving him a nice, warm, vermin-killing
> gold bath.
the entire chase sequence in Erebor was added as a result. With two movies,
the second movie would have started with them entering Erebor and
confronting Smaug, and there would have been no need for such a scene, the
desolation of Laketown would have sufficed.
> So, it /is/ Bard (imprisoned in the second film, IIRC) and not his
> son who gets Smaug?
> > Sandman:
> > We then cut to Erebor where Thorin is busy being mad by "dragon
> > sickness", which is a bit forced from his battle sequence at the
> > end of the last movie. It's more or less in line with the book, so
> > I won't whine about it too much.
>
> Actually, from this point on, /all/ the Erebor stuff sounds pretty
> consistent with the book. Changed a bit, no doubt, to make it into a
> film, but that almost always happens.
Yes, this movie is by far the most book-true of all. Apart from the added
> > sickness", which is a bit forced from his battle sequence at the
> > end of the last movie. It's more or less in line with the book, so
> > I won't whine about it too much.
>
> Actually, from this point on, /all/ the Erebor stuff sounds pretty
> consistent with the book. Changed a bit, no doubt, to make it into a
> film, but that almost always happens.
scenes in Dol Goldur and a sidestep to Gundabad, it's pretty much all
there, which is nice.
> > Sandman:
> > In Dol Goldur, Galadriel show up to rescue Gandalf, after which
> > the nine ringwraiths appear. And this is really poorly done. They
> > appear as translucent "ghosts" in mid-air and float about like no
> > one's business. But we already have a precedent how they are
> > supposed to look *if you can see them*. As we know, they are
> > invisible without their cloaks (which they're not wearing). And if
> > you want to argue that the members of the White Council should be
> > able to see them, then at least they should look like how Frodo
> > sees them on Weathertop.
>
> These are the wringwraiths before the Force was used to age them ...
> oh, sorry, that was the Emperor in another movie.
:)
> > the nine ringwraiths appear. And this is really poorly done. They
> > appear as translucent "ghosts" in mid-air and float about like no
> > one's business. But we already have a precedent how they are
> > supposed to look *if you can see them*. As we know, they are
> > invisible without their cloaks (which they're not wearing). And if
> > you want to argue that the members of the White Council should be
> > able to see them, then at least they should look like how Frodo
> > sees them on Weathertop.
>
> These are the wringwraiths before the Force was used to age them ...
> oh, sorry, that was the Emperor in another movie.
> > Sandman:
> > Elrond and Saruman also appear and a fight squence ensues where
> > Elrond fights them with a sword and Saruman with his staff. When
> > defeated (whatever that means) Sauron appears and "resurrects"
> > them (whatever that means) and says that darkness is coming.
> > Galadriel then switch to her "dark queen" mode and use what
> > appears to be the Light of Earendil to banish Sauron from Dol
> > Goldur. The entire sequence is rather quick and a bit
> > unsatisfactory. I had hoped for this to be more of an event where
> > the white council drives Sauron from Dol Goldur.
>
> Well, it certainly /should/ have been. It almost sounds as if they
> found they had gone done a wrong path and were trying to get out of
> it as quickly as possible. Then again, my immediate reaction to
> reading about it is "the shorter the better". What I will think when
> I see it remains to be seen; it may well seem rushed to me as well.
Probably. It's a bit like rescue gandlaf! Fight ringwraiths1 banish Sauron!
> > Elrond fights them with a sword and Saruman with his staff. When
> > defeated (whatever that means) Sauron appears and "resurrects"
> > them (whatever that means) and says that darkness is coming.
> > Galadriel then switch to her "dark queen" mode and use what
> > appears to be the Light of Earendil to banish Sauron from Dol
> > Goldur. The entire sequence is rather quick and a bit
> > unsatisfactory. I had hoped for this to be more of an event where
> > the white council drives Sauron from Dol Goldur.
>
> Well, it certainly /should/ have been. It almost sounds as if they
> found they had gone done a wrong path and were trying to get out of
> it as quickly as possible. Then again, my immediate reaction to
> reading about it is "the shorter the better". What I will think when
> I see it remains to be seen; it may well seem rushed to me as well.
Oh, time over for supper!
> > Sandman:
> > Thorin at this time sulks inside his mountain, but he (literally)
> > shakes off his sickness and even though they had armed up for war
> > before, they now join the charge when all seems lost, but not
> > wearing the battle armor they earlier put on. Weird.
>
> Film companies employ people (called "continuity" in the credits)
> /precisely/ in order to avoid these glitches.
No, this isn't a continuity error. They garb up when the elfs and men mass
> > shakes off his sickness and even though they had armed up for war
> > before, they now join the charge when all seems lost, but not
> > wearing the battle armor they earlier put on. Weird.
>
> Film companies employ people (called "continuity" in the credits)
> /precisely/ in order to avoid these glitches.
around Erebor, and confront them in full golden armor, looks awesome. Then
the Ironihill dwarves arrive and THorin just retreats back into the
mountain. Apparently all dwarves removes their armour, frustrated that they
can't join the battle, so when THorin comes around, they have their normal
garb.
> > Sandman:
> > The events that follows aren't too far from the book. We have the
> > obligatory stand-off between Thorin and Azog, the demise of Fili
> > and Kili and Legolas fights Bolg. This all happens on top of a
> > mountainside/tower instead of in the battlefield but that was
> > allright by me.
>
> > All in all, this may have been the movie adaptation of Tolkien's
> > work that stayed the most true to its source material. That said,
> > there are some things that stand out, here's a few:
>
> Arguably so, from what you are saying. I look forward to it eagerly.
> > Sandman:
> > obligatory stand-off between Thorin and Azog, the demise of Fili
> > and Kili and Legolas fights Bolg. This all happens on top of a
> > mountainside/tower instead of in the battlefield but that was
> > allright by me.
>
> > All in all, this may have been the movie adaptation of Tolkien's
> > work that stayed the most true to its source material. That said,
> > there are some things that stand out, here's a few:
>
> Arguably so, from what you are saying. I look forward to it eagerly.
> > Tauriel and Kili While a love affair between an elf and a dwarve
> > is pretty outlandish to begin with, even if the dwarf is as
> > handsome as Kili, it is taken to unreasonable heights in this
> > movie. It was merely hinted at in the last movie, which was, well
> > "ok". Here it is outright "true love" and when Kili is killed,
> > Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and they've met, what, three
> > times? Please.
>
> Actually, instant true love isn't that uncommon in films. Or books,
> for that matter. It may or may not be in real life, but a film with
> Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, Orcs and other oddities isn't exactly "real
> life", now is it?
That's Disney movies, not actual movies, unless they're pretty old. Movies
> > is pretty outlandish to begin with, even if the dwarf is as
> > handsome as Kili, it is taken to unreasonable heights in this
> > movie. It was merely hinted at in the last movie, which was, well
> > "ok". Here it is outright "true love" and when Kili is killed,
> > Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and they've met, what, three
> > times? Please.
>
> Actually, instant true love isn't that uncommon in films. Or books,
> for that matter. It may or may not be in real life, but a film with
> Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, Orcs and other oddities isn't exactly "real
> life", now is it?
with "instant true love" still have scenes that establish the love to be
true, which Kili+Tauriel severly lacks. We'll see what the Extended Edition
brings to the table.
> And not just chick flicks/rom-coms; consider /The Fisher King/.
> "It's like they were made for each other." Or even /The King and I/:
> the song "Some enchanted evening".
> > Sandman:
> > Alfrid The comic relief sidekick of the master of lake town, he's
> > way over the top and every scene with him is pure agony.
>
> Perhaps he took lessons from Radagast (in the first film).
He's way worse.
> > way over the top and every scene with him is pure agony.
>
> Perhaps he took lessons from Radagast (in the first film).
> > Sandman:
> > Huge "trolls" When the second wave of orc's arrive, they bring
> > with them enormous trolls with large catapults on their backs.
> > This feels like just an obvious throwback to the Mumakil of LotR,
> > but luckily we don't have Legolas killing one without breaking a
> > sweat. :)
>
> In the trailer, they looked like the ones operating the Black Gate.
No, they are way larger. The one's operating the black gate is the same
> > with them enormous trolls with large catapults on their backs.
> > This feels like just an obvious throwback to the Mumakil of LotR,
> > but luckily we don't have Legolas killing one without breaking a
> > sweat. :)
>
> In the trailer, they looked like the ones operating the Black Gate.
size as the cave troll in Moria.
> Also, in the trailer, they appeared to be immune to sunlight.
Gandlaf even comment on a lot of the orcs being orcs of Mordor, however
that is even possible.
> Perhaps the theory is that, since the Uruk-hai can resist the sun,
> so can the Oleg-hai.
bred by Sauron for that very purpose.
> And you have to have /some/ sort of transport for the artillery.
earlier depicted in the movies. They are something like five times their
size, about the same size as a Mumakil actually.
I think it's just a typical case of repeating something popular, or
visually effective. The entrance of the Mumakil was awesome in RotK, so
they wanted to recreate that.
> > Sandman:
> > All in all, it was a very enjoyable film, with some pacing issues,
> > but there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape from Misty
> > Mountains or barrel-ride in the first two movies.
>
> No theme-park ride trailers? Good.
There is a stone tower that topples over and is wedged between two
> > but there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape from Misty
> > Mountains or barrel-ride in the first two movies.
>
> No theme-park ride trailers? Good.
cliffside in a physic-violating manner, but it's short and not at all like
any of the scenes inthe earlier two movies.
> > Sandman:
> > It ends with Bilbo back home, and connecting with the LotR movies
> > in a nice and neat way. And there aren't 12 endings :)
>
> Ah, but is there only one ending?
I would say that, yes.
> > in a nice and neat way. And there aren't 12 endings :)
>
> Ah, but is there only one ending?
> I don't know about anyone else, but I have always felt that,
> cinematically, the end of /ROTK/ should have been all of Gondor
> kneeling (or was it bowing?) to the Hobbits. The other endings were
> nice to see, but not really part of the movie. IMHO, of course.
> The /worst/ part of the Rankin-Bass version, for me, is the ending,
> where Gandalf clearly /knows/ what ring (or, rather, Ring) Bilbo
> found.
Bilbo has a magic ring, but there is nothing to make it seem like he knows
or suspects that it's the One Ring.
--
Sandman[.net]
Paul S. Person
Dec 11, 2014, 1:01:16 PM12/11/14
to
On 10 Dec 2014 21:32:00 GMT, Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>In article <4f2h8a935f46jgg1v...@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person wrote:
>Probably. It's a bit like rescue gandlaf! Fight ringwraiths1 banish Sauron!
>Oh, time over for supper!
I forgot to ask: does Galadriel awaken Gandalf with a kiss, as she
>In article <4f2h8a935f46jgg1v...@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person wrote:
>Probably. It's a bit like rescue gandlaf! Fight ringwraiths1 banish Sauron!
>Oh, time over for supper!
appears to do in the trailer? Have PJ & accomplices been overdosing on
Disney animation?
>> Film companies employ people (called "continuity" in the credits)
>> /precisely/ in order to avoid these glitches.
>
>No, this isn't a continuity error. They garb up when the elfs and men mass
>around Erebor, and confront them in full golden armor, looks awesome. Then
>the Ironihill dwarves arrive and THorin just retreats back into the
>mountain. Apparently all dwarves removes their armour, frustrated that they
>can't join the battle, so when THorin comes around, they have their normal
>garb.
garb. You merely inferred it.
How do we know that the scenes weren't shot weeks apart, and
continuity messed up?
>> > Sandman:
>> > Tauriel and Kili While a love affair between an elf and a dwarve
>> > is pretty outlandish to begin with, even if the dwarf is as
>> > handsome as Kili, it is taken to unreasonable heights in this
>> > movie. It was merely hinted at in the last movie, which was, well
>> > "ok". Here it is outright "true love" and when Kili is killed,
>> > Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and they've met, what, three
>> > times? Please.
>>
>> Actually, instant true love isn't that uncommon in films. Or books,
>> for that matter. It may or may not be in real life, but a film with
>> Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, Orcs and other oddities isn't exactly "real
>> life", now is it?
>
>That's Disney movies, not actual movies, unless they're pretty old. Movies
>with "instant true love" still have scenes that establish the love to be
>true, which Kili+Tauriel severly lacks. We'll see what the Extended Edition
>brings to the table.
agreeing with you.
After all, I found the histrionics toward the end of /The Amazing
Spider-Man 2/ to be rather overdone, and I think the true love had
been established reasonably well -- at least, enough screen-time was
devoted to it so that it was clear that that was what the filmmakers
were trying to establish.
But I may have been negatively influenced by the distinct tinges of
racism and sexism evident in the film.
Then again, perhaps I simply prefer the Dirty Harry approach, as shown
in the third Dirty Harry movie: cover the dead woman's face with your
jacket, pick up the nearby LAWS rocket, and blow her killer away. Now
/that/ I can get behind!
>> And not just chick flicks/rom-coms; consider /The Fisher King/.
>> "It's like they were made for each other." Or even /The King and I/:
>> the song "Some enchanted evening".
>
>Been a while since I saw either, so can't comment.
Instant true love is an inherent part of the Western literary culture.
It is used in all sorts of films and books. But that doesn't mean it
was used properly here; I shall have to see.
>> > Sandman:
>> > Alfrid The comic relief sidekick of the master of lake town, he's
>> > way over the top and every scene with him is pure agony.
>>
>> Perhaps he took lessons from Radagast (in the first film).
>
>He's way worse.
pretty bad.
>> > Sandman:
>> > Huge "trolls" When the second wave of orc's arrive, they bring
>> > with them enormous trolls with large catapults on their backs.
>> > This feels like just an obvious throwback to the Mumakil of LotR,
>> > but luckily we don't have Legolas killing one without breaking a
>> > sweat. :)
>>
>> In the trailer, they looked like the ones operating the Black Gate.
>
>No, they are way larger. The one's operating the black gate is the same
>size as the cave troll in Moria.
>
>> Also, in the trailer, they appeared to be immune to sunlight.
>
>Yeah, sunlight has no effect on either trolls or orc's in this movie, and
>Gandlaf even comment on a lot of the orcs being orcs of Mordor, however
>that is even possible.
too much credit.
Still, in the Middle Earth of PJ & accomplices who can say what may be
happening in Mordor while Sauron is at Dol Guldur? And, IIRC, he had
been preparing Mordor for his return for some time when he was driven
out of Dol Goldur by the White Council.
>> Perhaps the theory is that, since the Uruk-hai can resist the sun,
>> so can the Oleg-hai.
>
>That's not the theory, it's all according to Tolkien himself, Olog-hai was
>bred by Sauron for that very purpose.
I don't recall JRRT saying anywhere that the Oleg-hai were.
But it seems a reasonable inference that they were.
>> And you have to have /some/ sort of transport for the artillery.
>
>The artillery-trolls aren't Olog-hai though. At least not Olog-hai as
>earlier depicted in the movies. They are something like five times their
>size, about the same size as a Mumakil actually.
accomplices chose to give them. Perhaps we should be thankful they
don't have wings.
>I think it's just a typical case of repeating something popular, or
>visually effective. The entrance of the Mumakil was awesome in RotK, so
>they wanted to recreate that.
noted that several characters in that film were playing the parts, so
to speak, played by other characters in the /LOTR/ films. And that's
not counting the characters that were in both series.
>> > Sandman:
>> > All in all, it was a very enjoyable film, with some pacing issues,
>> > but there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape from Misty
>> > Mountains or barrel-ride in the first two movies.
>>
>> No theme-park ride trailers? Good.
>
>There is a stone tower that topples over and is wedged between two
>cliffside in a physic-violating manner, but it's short and not at all like
>any of the scenes inthe earlier two movies.
the /LOTR/ films, which have never looked realistic to me.
>> > Sandman:
>> > It ends with Bilbo back home, and connecting with the LotR movies
>> > in a nice and neat way. And there aren't 12 endings :)
>>
>> Ah, but is there only one ending?
>
>I would say that, yes.
>
>> I don't know about anyone else, but I have always felt that,
>> cinematically, the end of /ROTK/ should have been all of Gondor
>> kneeling (or was it bowing?) to the Hobbits. The other endings were
>> nice to see, but not really part of the movie. IMHO, of course.
>
>True, but the scene of the last ship feels important as well.
...
First, that isn't the last ship. The last ship was taken by Sam, after
a long life in the Shire. "And so the last of the Ringbearers left
Middle Earth" or something like that. IIRC, this is somewhere in HOME,
probably toward the end.
Second, as far as we can tell, it just sails off into the ocean. Had
we seen it from the side, starting to rise from the waves as it found
the Straight Path, that would have been much better. But I suppose
they would have had to explain that, and it would make the film too
long. Oh, wait, it already /is/ too long, way too long, so it's too
late to worry about /that/.
That the film should have ended with the Adoration of the Hobbits says
clearly that the film and the book are telling two different stories.
>> The /worst/ part of the Rankin-Bass version, for me, is the ending,
>> where Gandalf clearly /knows/ what ring (or, rather, Ring) Bilbo
>> found.
>
>Here he doesn't. He talks to Bilbo, and let's him know he's aware that
>Bilbo has a magic ring, but there is nothing to make it seem like he knows
>or suspects that it's the One Ring.
The greatest temptation with prequels, in my /very/ limited
experience, is the tendency to link them to the next film. The worst
example I have had to endure (only once) was at the end of /Red
Dragon/, where Hannibal is told that some FBI agent named Clarice
Starling is waiting to see him. When I recovered from that, I found
myself heading for the doors, even though the end credits were
rolling. I /never/ leave until the credits have ended; some films have
an extra scene after them that is worth waiting for, so I would say
that I found /Red Dragon/ an especially bad film
Sandman
Dec 15, 2014, 4:05:21 AM12/15/14
to
In article <k3lj8ala4vknqn715...@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person wrote:
> > Sandman:
speak to him softly to wake him. Not really lovingly like that.
> > > Paul S. Person:
may even have been a short scene of Kili ripping some part of his armour
off when he realizes they won't join the fight.
> How do we know that the scenes weren't shot weeks apart, and
> continuity messed up?
I feel pretty sure about that.
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > Tauriel and Kili While a love affair between an elf
> > > > and a dwarve is pretty outlandish to begin with, even if the
> > > > dwarf is as handsome as Kili, it is taken to unreasonable
> > > > heights in this movie. It was merely hinted at in the last
> > > > movie, which was, well "ok". Here it is outright "true love"
> > > > and when Kili is killed, Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and
> > > > they've met, what, three times? Please.
> > >
> > > Paul S. Person:
> But I may have been negatively influenced by the distinct tinges of
> racism and sexism evident in the film.
Uhm...
> > > Paul S. Person:
problem with, it's the idea that it exists in a story without any
perceivable reason for it to exist. If true love is included, give a
convincing storyline for its existence.
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > Alfrid The comic relief sidekick of the master of
> > > > lake town, he's way over the top and every scene with him is
> > > > pure agony.
> > >
> > > Paul S. Person:
with Alfrid. BUt that's me. I dislike comedic characters who'se only job
description is "In this scene, you should be funny, ok?"
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > Huge "trolls" When the second wave of orc's arrive,
> > > > they bring with them enormous trolls with large catapults on
> > > > their backs. This feels like just an obvious throwback to the
> > > > Mumakil of LotR, but luckily we don't have Legolas killing one
> > > > without breaking a sweat. :)
> > >
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > Paul S. Person:
"But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared
in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai
they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though
from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but
giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite
unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power.
Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell
race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike
the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the
will of Sauron held sway over them.
> > Sandman:
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > All in all, it was a very enjoyable film, with some
> > > > pacing issues, but there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape
> > > > from Misty Mountains or barrel-ride in the first two movies.
> > >
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > Paul S. Person:
> That the film should have ended with the Adoration of the Hobbits
> says clearly that the film and the book are telling two different
> stories.
No.
> > > Paul S. Person:
--
Sandman[.net]
> > Sandman:
> > Probably. It's a bit like rescue gandlaf! Fight ringwraiths1
> > banish Sauron! Oh, time over for supper!
>
> I forgot to ask: does Galadriel awaken Gandalf with a kiss, as she
> appears to do in the trailer? Have PJ & accomplices been overdosing
> on Disney animation?
I don't... think so, not that I can remember. But she does cradle him and
> > banish Sauron! Oh, time over for supper!
>
> I forgot to ask: does Galadriel awaken Gandalf with a kiss, as she
> appears to do in the trailer? Have PJ & accomplices been overdosing
> on Disney animation?
speak to him softly to wake him. Not really lovingly like that.
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > Film companies employ people (called "continuity" in the
> > > credits) /precisely/ in order to avoid these glitches.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > credits) /precisely/ in order to avoid these glitches.
> >
> > No, this isn't a continuity error. They garb up when the elfs and
> > men mass around Erebor, and confront them in full golden armor,
> > looks awesome. Then the Ironihill dwarves arrive and THorin just
> > retreats back into the mountain. Apparently all dwarves removes
> > their armour, frustrated that they can't join the battle, so when
> > THorin comes around, they have their normal garb.
>
> But you (if I understand you correctly) didn't see them remove their
> garb. You merely inferred it.
Well, it was implicit in their frustration of just sitting around. There
> > men mass around Erebor, and confront them in full golden armor,
> > looks awesome. Then the Ironihill dwarves arrive and THorin just
> > retreats back into the mountain. Apparently all dwarves removes
> > their armour, frustrated that they can't join the battle, so when
> > THorin comes around, they have their normal garb.
>
> But you (if I understand you correctly) didn't see them remove their
> garb. You merely inferred it.
may even have been a short scene of Kili ripping some part of his armour
off when he realizes they won't join the fight.
> How do we know that the scenes weren't shot weeks apart, and
> continuity messed up?
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > Tauriel and Kili While a love affair between an elf
> > > > and a dwarve is pretty outlandish to begin with, even if the
> > > > dwarf is as handsome as Kili, it is taken to unreasonable
> > > > heights in this movie. It was merely hinted at in the last
> > > > movie, which was, well "ok". Here it is outright "true love"
> > > > and when Kili is killed, Tauriel weeps. It's out of place and
> > > > they've met, what, three times? Please.
> > >
> > > Actually, instant true love isn't that uncommon in films. Or
> > > books, for that matter. It may or may not be in real life, but a
> > > film with Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, Orcs and other oddities isn't
> > > exactly "real life", now is it?
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > books, for that matter. It may or may not be in real life, but a
> > > film with Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, Orcs and other oddities isn't
> > > exactly "real life", now is it?
> >
> > That's Disney movies, not actual movies, unless they're pretty
> > old. Movies with "instant true love" still have scenes that
> > establish the love to be true, which Kili+Tauriel severly lacks.
> > We'll see what the Extended Edition brings to the table.
>
> I will have to see the film before being sure -- and I may end up
> agreeing with you.
> After all, I found the histrionics toward the end of /The Amazing
> Spider-Man 2/ to be rather overdone, and I think the true love had
> been established reasonably well -- at least, enough screen-time was
> devoted to it so that it was clear that that was what the filmmakers
> were trying to establish.
Indeed.
> > old. Movies with "instant true love" still have scenes that
> > establish the love to be true, which Kili+Tauriel severly lacks.
> > We'll see what the Extended Edition brings to the table.
>
> I will have to see the film before being sure -- and I may end up
> agreeing with you.
> After all, I found the histrionics toward the end of /The Amazing
> Spider-Man 2/ to be rather overdone, and I think the true love had
> been established reasonably well -- at least, enough screen-time was
> devoted to it so that it was clear that that was what the filmmakers
> were trying to establish.
> But I may have been negatively influenced by the distinct tinges of
> racism and sexism evident in the film.
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > And not just chick flicks/rom-coms; consider /The Fisher King/.
> > > "It's like they were made for each other." Or even /The King and
> > > I/: the song "Some enchanted evening".
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > "It's like they were made for each other." Or even /The King and
> > > I/: the song "Some enchanted evening".
> >
> > Been a while since I saw either, so can't comment.
>
> Neither are Disney movies.
> Instant true love is an inherent part of the Western literary
> culture. It is used in all sorts of films and books. But that
> doesn't mean it was used properly here; I shall have to see.
For the record - it's not the concept of "instant true love" I have a
>
> Neither are Disney movies.
> Instant true love is an inherent part of the Western literary
> culture. It is used in all sorts of films and books. But that
> doesn't mean it was used properly here; I shall have to see.
problem with, it's the idea that it exists in a story without any
perceivable reason for it to exist. If true love is included, give a
convincing storyline for its existence.
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > Alfrid The comic relief sidekick of the master of
> > > > lake town, he's way over the top and every scene with him is
> > > > pure agony.
> > >
> > > Perhaps he took lessons from Radagast (in the first film).
> >
> > Sandman:
> >
> > He's way worse.
>
> I'll have to see that; Radagast in the rabbit(IIRC)-drawn sleigh was
> pretty bad.
I would rather have that scene playing over and over again than any scene
>
> I'll have to see that; Radagast in the rabbit(IIRC)-drawn sleigh was
> pretty bad.
with Alfrid. BUt that's me. I dislike comedic characters who'se only job
description is "In this scene, you should be funny, ok?"
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > Huge "trolls" When the second wave of orc's arrive,
> > > > they bring with them enormous trolls with large catapults on
> > > > their backs. This feels like just an obvious throwback to the
> > > > Mumakil of LotR, but luckily we don't have Legolas killing one
> > > > without breaking a sweat. :)
> > >
> > > In the trailer, they looked like the ones operating the Black
> > > Gate.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > Gate.
> >
> > No, they are way larger. The one's operating the black gate is the
> > same size as the cave troll in Moria.
>
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > same size as the cave troll in Moria.
>
> > > Also, in the trailer, they appeared to be immune to sunlight.
> >
> > Sandman:
> >
> > Yeah, sunlight has no effect on either trolls or orc's in this
> > movie, and Gandlaf even comment on a lot of the orcs being orcs of
> > Mordor, however that is even possible.
>
> I would say "Homer nodded" but that would give the scriptwriters far
> too much credit.
> Still, in the Middle Earth of PJ & accomplices who can say what may
> be happening in Mordor while Sauron is at Dol Guldur? And, IIRC, he
> had been preparing Mordor for his return for some time when he was
> driven out of Dol Goldur by the White Council.
But it's a fair bet he hadn't yet been breeding Olog-hai at this point.
> > movie, and Gandlaf even comment on a lot of the orcs being orcs of
> > Mordor, however that is even possible.
>
> I would say "Homer nodded" but that would give the scriptwriters far
> too much credit.
> Still, in the Middle Earth of PJ & accomplices who can say what may
> be happening in Mordor while Sauron is at Dol Guldur? And, IIRC, he
> had been preparing Mordor for his return for some time when he was
> driven out of Dol Goldur by the White Council.
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > Perhaps the theory is that, since the Uruk-hai can resist the
> > > sun, so can the Oleg-hai.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > sun, so can the Oleg-hai.
> >
> > That's not the theory, it's all according to Tolkien himself,
> > Olog-hai was bred by Sauron for that very purpose.
>
> I was aware that the Uruk-hai were resistant to the sun.
> I don't recall JRRT saying anywhere that the Oleg-hai were.
> But it seems a reasonable inference that they were.
Olog-hai. Yes, they were, in Appendix F:
> > Olog-hai was bred by Sauron for that very purpose.
>
> I was aware that the Uruk-hai were resistant to the sun.
> I don't recall JRRT saying anywhere that the Oleg-hai were.
> But it seems a reasonable inference that they were.
"But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared
in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai
they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though
from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but
giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite
unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power.
Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell
race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike
the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the
will of Sauron held sway over them.
> > Sandman:
> > I think it's just a typical case of repeating something popular,
> > or visually effective. The entrance of the Mumakil was awesome in
> > RotK, so they wanted to recreate that.
>
> That may well be the case. IIRC, when discussing the first film, I
> noted that several characters in that film were playing the parts,
> so to speak, played by other characters in the /LOTR/ films. And
> that's not counting the characters that were in both series.
What do you mean?
> > or visually effective. The entrance of the Mumakil was awesome in
> > RotK, so they wanted to recreate that.
>
> That may well be the case. IIRC, when discussing the first film, I
> noted that several characters in that film were playing the parts,
> so to speak, played by other characters in the /LOTR/ films. And
> that's not counting the characters that were in both series.
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > All in all, it was a very enjoyable film, with some
> > > > pacing issues, but there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape
> > > > from Misty Mountains or barrel-ride in the first two movies.
> > >
> > > No theme-park ride trailers? Good.
> >
> > Sandman:
> >
> > There is a stone tower that topples over and is wedged between two
> > cliffside in a physic-violating manner, but it's short and not at
> > all like any of the scenes inthe earlier two movies.
>
> Is it similar to the "collapsing stairs"/"collapsing tower" scenes
> in the /LOTR/ films, which have never looked realistic to me.
It's probably worse. :)
> > cliffside in a physic-violating manner, but it's short and not at
> > all like any of the scenes inthe earlier two movies.
>
> Is it similar to the "collapsing stairs"/"collapsing tower" scenes
> in the /LOTR/ films, which have never looked realistic to me.
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > I don't know about anyone else, but I have always felt that,
> > > cinematically, the end of /ROTK/ should have been all of Gondor
> > > kneeling (or was it bowing?) to the Hobbits. The other endings
> > > were nice to see, but not really part of the movie. IMHO, of
> > > course.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > cinematically, the end of /ROTK/ should have been all of Gondor
> > > kneeling (or was it bowing?) to the Hobbits. The other endings
> > > were nice to see, but not really part of the movie. IMHO, of
> > > course.
> >
> > True, but the scene of the last ship feels important as well.
>
> It may feel important, and it does end the story as in the book, but
> ...
> First, that isn't the last ship. The last ship was taken by Sam,
> after a long life in the Shire. "And so the last of the Ringbearers
> left Middle Earth" or something like that. IIRC, this is somewhere
> in HOME, probably toward the end.
Of course, my bad.
>
> It may feel important, and it does end the story as in the book, but
> ...
> First, that isn't the last ship. The last ship was taken by Sam,
> after a long life in the Shire. "And so the last of the Ringbearers
> left Middle Earth" or something like that. IIRC, this is somewhere
> in HOME, probably toward the end.
> That the film should have ended with the Adoration of the Hobbits
> says clearly that the film and the book are telling two different
> stories.
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > The /worst/ part of the Rankin-Bass version, for me, is the
> > > ending, where Gandalf clearly /knows/ what ring (or, rather,
> > > Ring) Bilbo found.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > ending, where Gandalf clearly /knows/ what ring (or, rather,
> > > Ring) Bilbo found.
> >
> > Here he doesn't. He talks to Bilbo, and let's him know he's aware
> > that Bilbo has a magic ring, but there is nothing to make it seem
> > like he knows or suspects that it's the One Ring.
>
> Good.
> The greatest temptation with prequels, in my /very/ limited
> experience, is the tendency to link them to the next film. The worst
> example I have had to endure (only once) was at the end of /Red
> Dragon/, where Hannibal is told that some FBI agent named Clarice
> Starling is waiting to see him. When I recovered from that, I found
> myself heading for the doors, even though the end credits were
> rolling. I /never/ leave until the credits have ended; some films
> have an extra scene after them that is worth waiting for, so I would
> say that I found /Red Dragon/ an especially bad film
You're way too sensitive about minor details.
> > that Bilbo has a magic ring, but there is nothing to make it seem
> > like he knows or suspects that it's the One Ring.
>
> Good.
> The greatest temptation with prequels, in my /very/ limited
> experience, is the tendency to link them to the next film. The worst
> example I have had to endure (only once) was at the end of /Red
> Dragon/, where Hannibal is told that some FBI agent named Clarice
> Starling is waiting to see him. When I recovered from that, I found
> myself heading for the doors, even though the end credits were
> rolling. I /never/ leave until the credits have ended; some films
> have an extra scene after them that is worth waiting for, so I would
> say that I found /Red Dragon/ an especially bad film
--
Sandman[.net]
Paul S. Person
Dec 15, 2014, 1:11:14 PM12/15/14
to
On 15 Dec 2014 09:05:18 GMT, Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>In article <k3lj8ala4vknqn715...@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person wrote:
>
>> > Sandman:
>> > Probably. It's a bit like rescue gandlaf! Fight ringwraiths1
>> > banish Sauron! Oh, time over for supper!
>>
>> I forgot to ask: does Galadriel awaken Gandalf with a kiss, as she
>> appears to do in the trailer? Have PJ & accomplices been overdosing
>> on Disney animation?
>
>I don't... think so, not that I can remember. But she does cradle him and
>speak to him softly to wake him. Not really lovingly like that.
Looks like the film /is/ opening Wednesday!
>In article <k3lj8ala4vknqn715...@4ax.com>, Paul S. Person wrote:
>
>> > Sandman:
>> > Probably. It's a bit like rescue gandlaf! Fight ringwraiths1
>> > banish Sauron! Oh, time over for supper!
>>
>> I forgot to ask: does Galadriel awaken Gandalf with a kiss, as she
>> appears to do in the trailer? Have PJ & accomplices been overdosing
>> on Disney animation?
>
>I don't... think so, not that I can remember. But she does cradle him and
>speak to him softly to wake him. Not really lovingly like that.
In the trailer, it looked like she kissed him on the forehead -- but
if they cut the "cradle" way down it might look that way.
Trailers, even when they don't try to be, can be quite deceptive.
>> > > Paul S. Person:
>> > > Film companies employ people (called "continuity" in the
>> > > credits) /precisely/ in order to avoid these glitches.
>> >
>> > Sandman:
>> > No, this isn't a continuity error. They garb up when the elfs and
>> > men mass around Erebor, and confront them in full golden armor,
>> > looks awesome. Then the Ironihill dwarves arrive and THorin just
>> > retreats back into the mountain. Apparently all dwarves removes
>> > their armour, frustrated that they can't join the battle, so when
>> > THorin comes around, they have their normal garb.
>>
>> But you (if I understand you correctly) didn't see them remove their
>> garb. You merely inferred it.
>
>Well, it was implicit in their frustration of just sitting around. There
>may even have been a short scene of Kili ripping some part of his armour
>off when he realizes they won't join the fight.
<snippo>
>> After all, I found the histrionics toward the end of /The Amazing
>> Spider-Man 2/ to be rather overdone, and I think the true love had
>> been established reasonably well -- at least, enough screen-time was
>> devoted to it so that it was clear that that was what the filmmakers
>> were trying to establish.
>
>Indeed.
>
>> But I may have been negatively influenced by the distinct tinges of
>> racism and sexism evident in the film.
>
>Uhm...
>> > > Paul S. Person:
>> > > And not just chick flicks/rom-coms; consider /The Fisher King/.
>> > > "It's like they were made for each other." Or even /The King and
>> > > I/: the song "Some enchanted evening".
>> >
>> > Sandman:
>> > Been a while since I saw either, so can't comment.
>>
>> Neither are Disney movies.
>
>> Instant true love is an inherent part of the Western literary
>> culture. It is used in all sorts of films and books. But that
>> doesn't mean it was used properly here; I shall have to see.
>
>For the record - it's not the concept of "instant true love" I have a
>problem with, it's the idea that it exists in a story without any
>perceivable reason for it to exist. If true love is included, give a
>convincing storyline for its existence.
I would, however, point out that she abandoned her post, refused a
direct order from a superior officer (Legolas), and abandoned said
officer -- all to follow and save Kili from the Morgul blade -- in the
second film.
I think this is supposed to suggest that she had feelings for Kili
that were more than "just friends". So the filmmakers may have felt
that they /were/ giving "a convincing storyline for its existence".
But I will have to wait until I see the film to be sure. I may well
end up agreeing with you.
<snippo>
>> Still, in the Middle Earth of PJ & accomplices who can say what may
>> be happening in Mordor while Sauron is at Dol Guldur? And, IIRC, he
>> had been preparing Mordor for his return for some time when he was
>> driven out of Dol Goldur by the White Council.
>
>But it's a fair bet he hadn't yet been breeding Olog-hai at this point.
say?
>> > > Paul S. Person:
>> > > Perhaps the theory is that, since the Uruk-hai can resist the
>> > > sun, so can the Oleg-hai.
>> >
>> > Sandman:
>> > That's not the theory, it's all according to Tolkien himself,
>> > Olog-hai was bred by Sauron for that very purpose.
>>
>> I was aware that the Uruk-hai were resistant to the sun.
>
>> I don't recall JRRT saying anywhere that the Oleg-hai were.
>
>> But it seems a reasonable inference that they were.
>
>Olog-hai. Yes, they were, in Appendix F:
Just another instance of my mind insisting that I have cleverly
figured something out that I, in fact, have read and so learned from
the author.
>> > Sandman:
>> > I think it's just a typical case of repeating something popular,
>> > or visually effective. The entrance of the Mumakil was awesome in
>> > RotK, so they wanted to recreate that.
>>
>> That may well be the case. IIRC, when discussing the first film, I
>> noted that several characters in that film were playing the parts,
>> so to speak, played by other characters in the /LOTR/ films. And
>> that's not counting the characters that were in both series.
>
>What do you mean?
I don't think my ideas met with a lot of support, so I may have been
wrong.
>> > > > Sandman:
>> > > > All in all, it was a very enjoyable film, with some
>> > > > pacing issues, but there was no Super Mario-scenes like escape
>> > > > from Misty Mountains or barrel-ride in the first two movies.
>> > >
>> > > Paul S. Person:
>> > > No theme-park ride trailers? Good.
>> >
>> > Sandman:
>> > There is a stone tower that topples over and is wedged between two
>> > cliffside in a physic-violating manner, but it's short and not at
>> > all like any of the scenes inthe earlier two movies.
>>
>> Is it similar to the "collapsing stairs"/"collapsing tower" scenes
>> in the /LOTR/ films, which have never looked realistic to me.
>
>It's probably worse. :)
<snip-a-bit>
>> First, that isn't the last ship. The last ship was taken by Sam,
>> after a long life in the Shire. "And so the last of the Ringbearers
>> left Middle Earth" or something like that. IIRC, this is somewhere
>> in HOME, probably toward the end.
>
>Of course, my bad.
>
>> That the film should have ended with the Adoration of the Hobbits
>> says clearly that the film and the book are telling two different
>> stories.
>
>No.
The book's story ends with Sam returning home.
The film's story ends with all of Gondor bending the knee to four
Hobbits. Everything after that is, so far as the story told by the
film is concerned, irrelevant fluff added for the fans of JRRT.
<snippo>
>> The greatest temptation with prequels, in my /very/ limited
>> experience, is the tendency to link them to the next film. The worst
>> example I have had to endure (only once) was at the end of /Red
>> Dragon/, where Hannibal is told that some FBI agent named Clarice
>> Starling is waiting to see him. When I recovered from that, I found
>> myself heading for the doors, even though the end credits were
>> rolling. I /never/ leave until the credits have ended; some films
>> have an extra scene after them that is worth waiting for, so I would
>> say that I found /Red Dragon/ an especially bad film
>
>You're way too sensitive about minor details.
But then, this is a cinematic form of smart-assery, and I loath and
despise smart-assery in all of its forms.
Sandman
Dec 15, 2014, 2:26:53 PM12/15/14
to
> > For the record - it's not the concept of "instant true love" I
> > have a problem with, it's the idea that it exists in a story
> > without any perceivable reason for it to exist. If true love is
> > included, give a convincing storyline for its existence.
>
> Well, then, I am a bit off-base here.
> I would, however, point out that she abandoned her post, refused a
> direct order from a superior officer (Legolas), and abandoned said
> officer -- all to follow and save Kili from the Morgul blade -- in
> the second film.
Which is a far cry from "true love", and could all be ascribed to her
> > have a problem with, it's the idea that it exists in a story
> > without any perceivable reason for it to exist. If true love is
> > included, give a convincing storyline for its existence.
>
> Well, then, I am a bit off-base here.
> I would, however, point out that she abandoned her post, refused a
> direct order from a superior officer (Legolas), and abandoned said
> officer -- all to follow and save Kili from the Morgul blade -- in
> the second film.
feeling that he doesn't deserve to die coupled with the fact that Thranduil
doesn't seem to want her around either way. It would have been another
matter all together if she was already betrothed to Legolas and they in
turn was not in love with each other, the the events on screen would have
more meaning. As it is, she's an elf that fancies Legolas, but Legolas
father doesn't approve and she meets this nice dwarve dude that has some
unfortune that she wants to help him with. Bam, true love!
> I think this is supposed to suggest that she had feelings for Kili
> that were more than "just friends". So the filmmakers may have felt
> that they /were/ giving "a convincing storyline for its existence".
> But I will have to wait until I see the film to be sure. I may well
> end up agreeing with you.
then you already disagree with me, if you don't feel it's enough, then rest
assured that Tauriel and Kili has no more scenes together in TH3 before she
weeps over him due to this supposed true love. Apart from them screaming
each other names when they're in peril, I don't think they have a single
lone of dialogue together in TH3.
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > Still, in the Middle Earth of PJ & accomplices who can say what
> > > may be happening in Mordor while Sauron is at Dol Guldur? And,
> > > IIRC, he had been preparing Mordor for his return for some time
> > > when he was driven out of Dol Goldur by the White Council.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > may be happening in Mordor while Sauron is at Dol Guldur? And,
> > > IIRC, he had been preparing Mordor for his return for some time
> > > when he was driven out of Dol Goldur by the White Council.
> >
> > But it's a fair bet he hadn't yet been breeding Olog-hai at this
> > point.
>
> In JRRTs story/appendices, yes. In PJ & accomplices version, who can
> say?
It's the same story, you know. What isn't told explicitly in the movies are
> > point.
>
> In JRRTs story/appendices, yes. In PJ & accomplices version, who can
> say?
from the books. So some things we *know* and some things are different.
For instance, as an example. In the book, Frodo takes several months to
make things in order before travelling to Bree, in the movie, he does not.
That's something that is different.
In the books, Gandalf and Pippin travel for days to get to Minas Tirith,
and in the movies they cut from one scene to the other, yet that's the
same. Minas Tirith isn't around the corner from Edoras as the movie might
have you believe because we know this.
> > Sandman:
> > Olog-hai. Yes, they were, in Appendix F:
>
> I stand corrected
> Just another instance of my mind insisting that I have cleverly
> figured something out that I, in fact, have read and so learned from
> the author.
You'd be surprised at how much in the movies are taken almost literally
>
> I stand corrected
> Just another instance of my mind insisting that I have cleverly
> figured something out that I, in fact, have read and so learned from
> the author.
from Tolkien.
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > I think it's just a typical case of repeating
> > > > something popular, or visually effective. The entrance of the
> > > > Mumakil was awesome in RotK, so they wanted to recreate that.
> > >
> > > That may well be the case. IIRC, when discussing the first film,
> > > I noted that several characters in that film were playing the
> > > parts, so to speak, played by other characters in the /LOTR/
> > > films. And that's not counting the characters that were in both
> > > series.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > I noted that several characters in that film were playing the
> > > parts, so to speak, played by other characters in the /LOTR/
> > > films. And that's not counting the characters that were in both
> > > series.
> >
> > What do you mean?
>
> You'd have to go back to my posts and see, I really don't recall.
Yeah, but I didn't understand what you meant, not what characters played
>
> You'd have to go back to my posts and see, I really don't recall.
what parts. The sentence "I noted that several characters in that film were
playing the parts, so to speak, player by other characters" was unclear to
me.
> > > > Sandman:
> > > > There is a stone tower that topples over and is
> > > > wedged between two cliffside in a physic-violating manner, but
> > > > it's short and not at all like any of the scenes inthe earlier
> > > > two movies.
> > >
> > > Is it similar to the "collapsing stairs"/"collapsing tower"
> > > scenes in the /LOTR/ films, which have never looked realistic to
> > > me.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > scenes in the /LOTR/ films, which have never looked realistic to
> > > me.
> >
> > It's probably worse. :)
>
> Most CGI studios /improve/ over time. Pity.
Well, Weta has some awesome talent, but unfortunately, each of the three
>
> Most CGI studios /improve/ over time. Pity.
movies have had work pushed up to the very end deadline.
For instance, in TH2 the "molten gold" river that Thorin rides using a
wheel barrow looks like something from the Super Mario era och CGI, totally
amateurish. In the behind the scenes material the reason is quite obvious -
this scene was created late in the day when it was decided that two movies
should be three movies, and then the second movie didn't have a crescendo,
so they had to invent the entire attack in the mountain thing, and it drew
out so the CGi had to be rushed. It's unfortunate but such things happens
to many movies.
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > That the film should have ended with the Adoration of the
> > > Hobbits says clearly that the film and the book are telling two
> > > different stories.
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > Hobbits says clearly that the film and the book are telling two
> > > different stories.
> >
> > No.
>
> Yes.
> The book's story ends with Sam returning home.
As does the movie.
>
> Yes.
> The book's story ends with Sam returning home.
> The film's story ends with all of Gondor bending the knee to four
> Hobbits.
> Everything after that is, so far as the story told by the
> film is concerned, irrelevant fluff added for the fans of JRRT.
match the ending of the book - Sam returning home and to his life in the
Shire, which is the very last scene.
> > > Paul S. Person:
> > > The greatest temptation with prequels, in my /very/ limited
> > > experience, is the tendency to link them to the next film. The
> > > worst example I have had to endure (only once) was at the end of
> > > /Red Dragon/, where Hannibal is told that some FBI agent named
> > > Clarice Starling is waiting to see him. When I recovered from
> > > that, I found myself heading for the doors, even though the end
> > > credits were rolling. I /never/ leave until the credits have
> > > ended; some films have an extra scene after them that is worth
> > > waiting for, so I would say that I found /Red Dragon/ an
> > > especially bad film
> >
> > Sandman:
> > > experience, is the tendency to link them to the next film. The
> > > worst example I have had to endure (only once) was at the end of
> > > /Red Dragon/, where Hannibal is told that some FBI agent named
> > > Clarice Starling is waiting to see him. When I recovered from
> > > that, I found myself heading for the doors, even though the end
> > > credits were rolling. I /never/ leave until the credits have
> > > ended; some films have an extra scene after them that is worth
> > > waiting for, so I would say that I found /Red Dragon/ an
> > > especially bad film
> >
> > You're way too sensitive about minor details.
>
> IMHO, I am just exactly sensitive enough.
Unsurprisingly, it's your opinion. :)
>
> IMHO, I am just exactly sensitive enough.
> But then, this is a cinematic form of smart-assery, and I loath and
> despise smart-assery in all of its forms.
the movie for me. I can enjoy all of LOTR and TH and still acknowledge the
various "ugh" scenes, be them added stuff by the movie makers, or sttupid
stuff directly from Tolkien. All stories have flaws, all adaptations have
alterations.
Take the movie Eragon, for instance, which is an adaptation of a book. That
movie tells a completely different story, at least in the later half, than
the book. In the first half, they change around a few things - some I can
understand and even agree with, and some other strange changes. But the
ending of the movie has been totally changed akin to having Frodo
sword-fighting Sauron at the end of the RotK movie.
Compared to that, the LOTR and TH movies are all a very good representation
of the books they adapt. What differs are *mostly* details, and few major
plot points or story changes.
In fact, TH is even more truer to the book(s) than LOTR is, if you ask me.
Some added "fluff" is due to the fact that a movie is a visual medium and
there's a degree of "crowd pleasing" to it.
As usual, I could list many statistical data to support my claims :-D
--
Sandman[.net]
Paul S. Person
Dec 16, 2014, 1:32:05 PM12/16/14
to
On 15 Dec 2014 19:26:51 GMT, Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
<very interesting stuff>
I think it best for me to just see the film tomorrow.
As I have repeatedly noted, I may well agree with you once I have seen
it.
<very interesting stuff>
I think it best for me to just see the film tomorrow.
As I have repeatedly noted, I may well agree with you once I have seen
it.
Louis Epstein
Dec 26, 2014, 11:48:01 PM12/26/14
to
Paul S. Person <pspe...@ix.netscom.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 15 Dec 2014 19:26:51 GMT, Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>
> <very interesting stuff>
>
> I think it best for me to just see the film tomorrow.
It is never for the best for anyone to pay to watch a cinematic
> On 15 Dec 2014 19:26:51 GMT, Sandman <m...@sandman.net> wrote:
>
> <very interesting stuff>
>
> I think it best for me to just see the film tomorrow.
adaptation of Tolkien's work.
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
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