Does Darth Sidious have contests to keep Sith nimble?
Alberich
wondering whether the Sith Code allows the Sith Master to have his
apprentice keep her/his skills nimble by proving her/his self against
Sith apprentice challengers?
Remember that in Return of the Jedi, Darth Sidious had no compunction
about having Luke kill his own father to have him by his side as the new
Sith apprentice. Any thoughts on this one? Like did Darth Maul face
other challengers to become the Sith Lord apprentice? And how could Darth
Sidious be sure Maul was the appropriate one to face the Jedi for the
"Great Duel"?
Wes Hutchings
> From: Alberich <som...@somewhere.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
> Date: 30 Mar 2001 18:44:04 -0600
> Subject: Does Darth Sidious have contests to keep Sith nimble?
>
> After seeing Return of the Jedi and watching The Phantom Menace...I was
> wondering whether the Sith Code allows the Sith Master to have his
> apprentice keep her/his skills nimble by proving her/his self against
> Sith apprentice challengers?
Training would be an interesting subject to delve into.
It's clear Luke spends his time getting in shape to become a Jedi, but
doesn't really work out on a regular basis to maintain himself.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon are likewise just being themselves, not excercising or
sparring to stay in shape, just fighting.
>
> Remember that in Return of the Jedi, Darth Sidious had no compunction
> about having Luke kill his own father to have him by his side as the new
> Sith apprentice. Any thoughts on this one? Like did Darth Maul face
> other challengers to become the Sith Lord apprentice?
Doubtful. Too many people knowing would make it a hard secret to keep.
> And how could Darth
> Sidious be sure Maul was the appropriate one to face the Jedi for the
> "Great Duel"?
Because he trained him.
wes
John Donchig
>
> > From: Alberich <som...@somewhere.com>
> > Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
> > Date: 30 Mar 2001 18:44:04 -0600
> > Subject: Does Darth Sidious have contests to keep Sith nimble?
> >
> > After seeing Return of the Jedi and watching The Phantom Menace...I was
> > wondering whether the Sith Code allows the Sith Master to have his
> > apprentice keep her/his skills nimble by proving her/his self against
> > Sith apprentice challengers?
>
> Training would be an interesting subject to delve into.
> It's clear Luke spends his time getting in shape to become a Jedi, but
> doesn't really work out on a regular basis to maintain himself.
That's a dangerous assumption to make. From the canon we have no way of
knowing how much Luke exercised, specifically, but we can make
inferences. We know he was a "farmboy," and hence used to regular hard
work. Then he joins a military unit, which certainly kept him in decent
shape. Then consider how Luke looked in ESB--not Mr. Olympia-like, but
still in very good shape. Then, there's no info either way in ROTJ. It
seems there's more evidence for Luke, at least, being in a constant
state of training than not.
And if we want to include EU in the equation, it's made clear in the
novels that Luke and Corran, at least, keep themselves in excellent
physical shape by running and doing gymnastics regularly.
> Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon are likewise just being themselves, not excercising or
> sparring to stay in shape, just fighting.
Again we have no specific information, but in this case there's no info
either way.
> > Remember that in Return of the Jedi, Darth Sidious had no compunction
> > about having Luke kill his own father to have him by his side as the new
> > Sith apprentice. Any thoughts on this one? Like did Darth Maul face
> > other challengers to become the Sith Lord apprentice?
>
> Doubtful. Too many people knowing would make it a hard secret to keep.
Unless Sidious brings them to his "lair," as it were, in total secrecy
and with the caveat that all losers die--which isn't that hard to
imagine him doing.
> > And how could Darth
> > Sidious be sure Maul was the appropriate one to face the Jedi for the
> > "Great Duel"?
>
> Because he trained him.
Corollary: Because, as one of only two Sith Lords, he was the only one
(literally) who COULD fight the Jedi.
John
--
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not
become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks
into you.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
Wes Hutchings
> From: John Donchig <jdon...@earthlink.net>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 06:25:39 GMT
> Subject: Re: Does Darth Sidious have contests to keep Sith nimble?
>
> Wes Hutchings wrote:
>>
>>> From: Alberich <som...@somewhere.com>
>>> Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
>>> Date: 30 Mar 2001 18:44:04 -0600
>>> Subject: Does Darth Sidious have contests to keep Sith nimble?
>>>
>>> After seeing Return of the Jedi and watching The Phantom Menace...I was
>>> wondering whether the Sith Code allows the Sith Master to have his
>>> apprentice keep her/his skills nimble by proving her/his self against
>>> Sith apprentice challengers?
>>
>> Training would be an interesting subject to delve into.
>> It's clear Luke spends his time getting in shape to become a Jedi, but
>> doesn't really work out on a regular basis to maintain himself.
>
> That's a dangerous assumption to make.
Not really.
> From the canon we have no way of
> knowing how much Luke exercised,
There are things we were meant to see. They were done in contrast with Lukes
condition prior. For example the Dagobah BootCamp. Clearly Luke had to work
hard to maintain that level and had to work hard to achieve it. Something he
had not done before or since.
> specifically, but we can make
> inferences. We know he was a "farmboy," and hence used to regular hard
> work.
I wouldn't say it was hard work, since Owen doesn't look like he's missed a
meal, neither does Beru. Luke acts like a petulant child when asked to do
anything. Not because he sees it as hard.
> Then he joins a military unit, which certainly kept him in decent
> shape.
He's definitely more active, but it's still nothing compared to what Sgt.
Yoda put him through.
> Then consider how Luke looked in ESB--not Mr. Olympia-like, but
> still in very good shape.
The ONLY time we are shown him to be in good shape.
> Then, there's no info either way in ROTJ.
He does nothing to further himself. He's reached a calm center and that's
it.
> It
> seems there's more evidence for Luke, at least, being in a constant
> state of training than not.
I beg to differ as shown above.
>
> And if we want to include EU in the equation, it's made clear in the
> novels that Luke and Corran, at least, keep themselves in excellent
> physical shape by running and doing gymnastics regularly.
Something Lucas shows us at only one time.
During training.
>
>> Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon are likewise just being themselves, not excercising or
>> sparring to stay in shape, just fighting.
>
> Again we have no specific information, but in this case there's no info
> either way.
It's a film. We are meant to see those things which are important. It was
important to show Maul, but not the Jedi as fit specimens.
>
>>> Remember that in Return of the Jedi, Darth Sidious had no compunction
>>> about having Luke kill his own father to have him by his side as the new
>>> Sith apprentice. Any thoughts on this one? Like did Darth Maul face
>>> other challengers to become the Sith Lord apprentice?
>>
>> Doubtful. Too many people knowing would make it a hard secret to keep.
>
> Unless Sidious brings them to his "lair," as it were, in total secrecy
> and with the caveat that all losers die--which isn't that hard to
> imagine him doing.
And then you have a series of missing bodies all leading to one person.
>
>>> And how could Darth
>>> Sidious be sure Maul was the appropriate one to face the Jedi for the
>>> "Great Duel"?
>>
>> Because he trained him.
>
> Corollary: Because, as one of only two Sith Lords, he was the only one
> (literally) who COULD fight the Jedi.
Which is basically an Occams reply.
wes
John Donchig
> >>> After seeing Return of the Jedi and watching The Phantom Menace...I was
> >>> wondering whether the Sith Code allows the Sith Master to have his
> >>> apprentice keep her/his skills nimble by proving her/his self against
> >>> Sith apprentice challengers?
> >>
> >> Training would be an interesting subject to delve into.
> >> It's clear Luke spends his time getting in shape to become a Jedi, but
> >> doesn't really work out on a regular basis to maintain himself.
> >
> > That's a dangerous assumption to make.
>
> Not really.
>
> > From the canon we have no way of
> > knowing how much Luke exercised,
>
> There are things we were meant to see. They were done in contrast with Lukes
> condition prior. For example the Dagobah BootCamp. Clearly Luke had to work
> hard to maintain that level and had to work hard to achieve it.
There's always another level to which a person can take his or her
physical acuity. Case in point--I used to run 2 miles a day and I
thought I was in good shape by doing it. Now I'm running 5 miles a day,
and I realize I can increase that again, again taking myself to the next
plateau. In other words, just because Luke was huffing and puffing at
Yoda's mini Jedi ass-kicking camp, does not mean he wasn't in good shape
before.
> Something he
> had not done before or since.
I'll stipulate to "before," but disagree with your conjecture as to
"since."
> > specifically, but we can make
> > inferences. We know he was a "farmboy," and hence used to regular hard
> > work.
>
> I wouldn't say it was hard work, since Owen doesn't look like he's missed a
> meal, neither does Beru. Luke acts like a petulant child when asked to do
> anything. Not because he sees it as hard.
Your points are taken. However, I will stick to my assertion that farm
work--no matter the type, and no matter the willingness of the
individual in question--is at least more strenuous than most others'
everyday activities.
> > Then he joins a military unit, which certainly kept him in decent
> > shape.
>
> He's definitely more active, but it's still nothing compared to what Sgt.
> Yoda put him through.
True, in the same way that every graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy is
kept in good shape and thinks of him or herself as being in good
shape--until the few that move on to, say, SEAL training realize there
is, as I said before, always another level.
> > Then consider how Luke looked in ESB--not Mr. Olympia-like, but
> > still in very good shape.
>
> The ONLY time we are shown him to be in good shape.
Take whichever reply you like, the A) "real life" one or the B)
"internal reality" one:
A) Lucas needed us to see Luke training in ESB, but not in ANH or ROTJ,
which is why the only time we see him in good shape is in ESB
B) Luke goes through the events of ROTJ completely covered in clothing.
Hence, we have no way of knowing what shape he was in under the clothes.
> > Then, there's no info either way in ROTJ.
>
> He does nothing to further himself. He's reached a calm center and that's
> it.
Refer to the above on the first sentence, and as to the second I would
disagree--the Luke I saw in ROTJ was not calm and centered, but still
very emotional.
> > It
> > seems there's more evidence for Luke, at least, being in a constant
> > state of training than not.
>
> I beg to differ as shown above.
Me too.
> > And if we want to include EU in the equation, it's made clear in the
> > novels that Luke and Corran, at least, keep themselves in excellent
> > physical shape by running and doing gymnastics regularly.
>
> Something Lucas shows us at only one time.
> During training.
Because it only served his purposes that one time. By the reasoning
you're using here, Luke only ever ate once in his life--the ration on
Dagobah. In other words, just because we don't see it doesn't mean it
isn't there.
> >> Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon are likewise just being themselves, not excercising or
> >> sparring to stay in shape, just fighting.
> >
> > Again we have no specific information, but in this case there's no info
> > either way.
>
> It's a film. We are meant to see those things which are important.
Specifically, we're only shown what's CRITICAL.
> It was
> important to show Maul, but not the Jedi as fit specimens.
And how are we shown that Maul is in any way a fitter specimen than the
Jedi? His leaps and etc. are no more impressive than anything Obi-Wan
and Qui-Gon execute at points throughout the movie.
> >>> Remember that in Return of the Jedi, Darth Sidious had no compunction
> >>> about having Luke kill his own father to have him by his side as the new
> >>> Sith apprentice. Any thoughts on this one? Like did Darth Maul face
> >>> other challengers to become the Sith Lord apprentice?
> >>
> >> Doubtful. Too many people knowing would make it a hard secret to keep.
> >
> > Unless Sidious brings them to his "lair," as it were, in total secrecy
> > and with the caveat that all losers die--which isn't that hard to
> > imagine him doing.
>
> And then you have a series of missing bodies all leading to one person.
What, like Darth Sidious is an easily traceable person? Sure, the
Republic Bureau of Investigation will just swoop by and pick him up on
suspicion of kidnapping and homicide. Darth Sidious is a ghost--a
PHANTOM--not someone to whom or from whom any trails lead.
> >>> And how could Darth
> >>> Sidious be sure Maul was the appropriate one to face the Jedi for the
> >>> "Great Duel"?
> >>
> >> Because he trained him.
> >
> > Corollary: Because, as one of only two Sith Lords, he was the only one
> > (literally) who COULD fight the Jedi.
>
> Which is basically an Occams reply.
I love Occam.
Darth Bob
"Alberich" <som...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.152ef2345...@news.cyburban.com...
One can only assume. I think I smell an EU story coming.
--
Darth Bob |-o-|
Visit www.schustersonline.com
All your Base are belong to US
coordination kid
"John Donchig" <jdon...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3AC578BB...@earthlink.net...
> Wes Hutchings wrote:
> >
> > > From: Alberich <som...@somewhere.com>
> > > Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
> > > Date: 30 Mar 2001 18:44:04 -0600
> > > Subject: Does Darth Sidious have contests to keep Sith nimble?
> > >
> > > After seeing Return of the Jedi and watching The Phantom Menace...I
was
> > > wondering whether the Sith Code allows the Sith Master to have his
> > > apprentice keep her/his skills nimble by proving her/his self against
> > > Sith apprentice challengers?
> >
> > Training would be an interesting subject to delve into.
> > It's clear Luke spends his time getting in shape to become a Jedi, but
> > doesn't really work out on a regular basis to maintain himself.
>
> That's a dangerous assumption to make. From the canon we have no way of
> knowing how much Luke exercised, specifically, but we can make
> inferences. We know he was a "farmboy," and hence used to regular hard
> work. Then he joins a military unit, which certainly kept him in decent
> shape.
I think you have to think this point again. Or have you forgotten what
Porkins looed like. I have a feeling that IF GL does an nother SE of the
movies, to make them more compleat, Im sure you will see Porkins pulling
over to one of the Tim Hortans in the Yavin system to get a coffee and a
donut.
C_K
Wes Hutchings
> From: John Donchig <jdon...@earthlink.net>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups: alt.fan.starwars
> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 08:42:03 GMT
> Subject: Re: Does Darth Sidious have contests to keep Sith nimble?
>
>
>>>>> After seeing Return of the Jedi and watching The Phantom Menace...I was
>>>>> wondering whether the Sith Code allows the Sith Master to have his
>>>>> apprentice keep her/his skills nimble by proving her/his self against
>>>>> Sith apprentice challengers?
>>>>
>>>> Training would be an interesting subject to delve into.
>>>> It's clear Luke spends his time getting in shape to become a Jedi, but
>>>> doesn't really work out on a regular basis to maintain himself.
>>>
>>> That's a dangerous assumption to make.
>>
>> Not really.
>>
>>> From the canon we have no way of
>>> knowing how much Luke exercised,
>>
>> There are things we were meant to see. They were done in contrast with Lukes
>> condition prior. For example the Dagobah BootCamp. Clearly Luke had to work
>> hard to maintain that level and had to work hard to achieve it.
>
> There's always another level to which a person can take his or her
> physical acuity. Case in point--I used to run 2 miles a day and I
> thought I was in good shape by doing it. Now I'm running 5 miles a day,
> and I realize I can increase that again, again taking myself to the next
> plateau. In other words, just because Luke was huffing and puffing at
> Yoda's mini Jedi ass-kicking camp, does not mean he wasn't in good shape
> before.
It illustrates the one time in the entire saga where he is huffing and
puffing. Never again, never before. Therefore it is the only time he is
actively pushing himself.
>
>> Something he
>> had not done before or since.
>
> I'll stipulate to "before," but disagree with your conjecture as to
> "since."
Show Luke exerting himself in ROTJ in a manner that indicates he's reached
the plateau.
>
>>> specifically, but we can make
>>> inferences. We know he was a "farmboy," and hence used to regular hard
>>> work.
>>
>> I wouldn't say it was hard work, since Owen doesn't look like he's missed a
>> meal, neither does Beru. Luke acts like a petulant child when asked to do
>> anything. Not because he sees it as hard.
>
> Your points are taken. However, I will stick to my assertion that farm
> work--no matter the type, and no matter the willingness of the
> individual in question--is at least more strenuous than most others'
> everyday activities.
Which still doesn't make it a workout regime. If it were Owen would be in
better shape. I know lots of people who do physical work every day. Some
look to be in good shape, others do not.
>
>>> Then he joins a military unit, which certainly kept him in decent
>>> shape.
>>
>> He's definitely more active, but it's still nothing compared to what Sgt.
>> Yoda put him through.
>
> True, in the same way that every graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy is
> kept in good shape and thinks of him or herself as being in good
> shape--until the few that move on to, say, SEAL training realize there
> is, as I said before, always another level.
Yes, but Luke isn't pursuing any other levels.
In fact he's probably slipping back during ROTJ.
>
>>> Then consider how Luke looked in ESB--not Mr. Olympia-like, but
>>> still in very good shape.
>>
>> The ONLY time we are shown him to be in good shape.
>
> Take whichever reply you like, the A) "real life" one or the B)
> "internal reality" one:
>
> A) Lucas needed us to see Luke training in ESB, but not in ANH or ROTJ,
> which is why the only time we see him in good shape is in ESB
He still shows us levels of exertion.
Luke comes up short after his ESB training. Meaning he was not in as good a
shape. For comparison look at Maul during the Theed battle.
>
> B) Luke goes through the events of ROTJ completely covered in clothing.
> Hence, we have no way of knowing what shape he was in under the clothes.
His breathing, the gymnastics in ESB that are absent in ROTJ, Luke becoming
winded.
>
>>> Then, there's no info either way in ROTJ.
>>
>> He does nothing to further himself. He's reached a calm center and that's
>> it.
>
> Refer to the above on the first sentence, and as to the second I would
> disagree--the Luke I saw in ROTJ was not calm and centered, but still
> very emotional.
Luke has done NOTHING to further himself. He is in worse shape in ROTJ than
in ESB.
The calm center referred to his being in a place where he felt he belonged.
How he feels he has reached the level of Jedi and can therefore just keep at
that level, centered on himself.
It is not indicative of his emotional state as he is only calm on those
occasions when facing everyday problems.
>
>>> It
>>> seems there's more evidence for Luke, at least, being in a constant
>>> state of training than not.
>>
>> I beg to differ as shown above.
>
> Me too.
The difference is, mine is loaded.
>
>>> And if we want to include EU in the equation, it's made clear in the
>>> novels that Luke and Corran, at least, keep themselves in excellent
>>> physical shape by running and doing gymnastics regularly.
>>
>> Something Lucas shows us at only one time.
>> During training.
>
> Because it only served his purposes that one time.
Why does Luke need gymnastics against Vader in ESB, but not in ROTJ?
> By the reasoning
> you're using here, Luke only ever ate once in his life--the ration on
> Dagobah.
No, you're not following my reasoning.
> In other words, just because we don't see it doesn't mean it
> isn't there.
If all I were pointing to were was that, you'd be correct, but I am
indicating many other events in the films.
>
>>>> Obi-Wan and Qui-Jon are likewise just being themselves, not excercising or
>>>> sparring to stay in shape, just fighting.
>>>
>>> Again we have no specific information, but in this case there's no info
>>> either way.
>>
>> It's a film. We are meant to see those things which are important.
>
> Specifically, we're only shown what's CRITICAL.
The Garbage Masher scene was critical?
The Tuskens picking over Lukes speeder for parts was critical?
Having the Jedi in TPM point out the obvious, that the droids had shield
generators was critical?
The films have always shown us a great deal of information and reading
between the lines we've discovered a great deal more.
>
>> It was
>> important to show Maul, but not the Jedi as fit specimens.
>
> And how are we shown that Maul is in any way a fitter specimen than the
> Jedi?
He's not breathing hard.
> His leaps and etc. are no more impressive than anything Obi-Wan
> and Qui-Gon execute at points throughout the movie.
He does it constantly, they do it occasionally and find themselves getting
winded and outfought on a number of occasions.
>
>>>>> Remember that in Return of the Jedi, Darth Sidious had no compunction
>>>>> about having Luke kill his own father to have him by his side as the new
>>>>> Sith apprentice. Any thoughts on this one? Like did Darth Maul face
>>>>> other challengers to become the Sith Lord apprentice?
>>>>
>>>> Doubtful. Too many people knowing would make it a hard secret to keep.
>>>
>>> Unless Sidious brings them to his "lair," as it were, in total secrecy
>>> and with the caveat that all losers die--which isn't that hard to
>>> imagine him doing.
>>
>> And then you have a series of missing bodies all leading to one person.
>
> What, like Darth Sidious is an easily traceable person?
He let the Neimodians have access to him.
> Sure, the
> Republic Bureau of Investigation will just swoop by and pick him up on
> suspicion of kidnapping and homicide. Darth Sidious is a ghost--a
> PHANTOM--not someone to whom or from whom any trails lead.
And if Force sensitive people were disappearing I'm sure the Jedi counsel
would just shrug and walk away.
Think harder.
>
>>>>> And how could Darth
>>>>> Sidious be sure Maul was the appropriate one to face the Jedi for the
>>>>> "Great Duel"?
>>>>
>>>> Because he trained him.
>>>
>>> Corollary: Because, as one of only two Sith Lords, he was the only one
>>> (literally) who COULD fight the Jedi.
>>
>> Which is basically an Occams reply.
>
> I love Occam.
He's dead you know.
wes