Re: Prowse knew Vader was Luke's father
Willy Nilly
> Despite indications to the contrary in the Star Wars documentary
> "Empire of Dreams", David Prowse certainly knew that Darth Vader was
> Luke's father well before undertaking filming of Empire. In a magazine
> devoted mainly to Hammer horror films (published in 1978), there is an
> interview with Prowse where he states unambiguously that Darth Vader
> is Luke Skywalker's father, and tells how that information will be
> revealed in the "next movie". He comments that this is why Vader can't
> kill Luke and Luke can't kill Vader - they're father and son. I have
> this magazine still (Christopher Lee in Dracula regalia is on the
> cover) and this information is there in black and white.
No magazine name, publisher, or page number quoted... all the classic
hallmarks of an Urban Legend and/or troll. Nice try. :)
James Willmott
in a lava pit not long after the original trilogy came out. Does anyone
know when or how this bit of info was released? Was it in a novelisation
at all?
jw.
C'Pi
ROTJ novelisation.
--
C'Pi
"It's because of men like you that all must be destroyed."
ClabberHead 5.0
"James Willmott" <nos...@nospam.com.au> wrote in message
news:Aenjd.23342$K7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
I was remembering this exact thing recently. I distinctly remeber
discussing with friends in Jr High about Vader ending up in a lava pit. I
can't remember if it was after TESB or ROTJ.
BTW, this is my first post here, Greetings all!!!
--
ClabberHead 5.0 (aka Iron Chef Atkins)
248.5/189.0/185.0 Livin' La Vida Low-Carb since 5/1/03
Al-Team #"e" to 27 decimal places (2.71828182845904523536028747...)
MSTie # 93058
"Think about how stupid the average person is, then remember half of them
are stupider than that!" - George Carlin
electroretro
"Yorick" <johnny_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ad6c80f0.04110...@posting.google.com...
> Despite indications to the contrary in the Star Wars documentary
> "Empire of Dreams", David Prowse certainly knew that Darth Vader was
> Luke's father well before undertaking filming of Empire. In a magazine
> devoted mainly to Hammer horror films (published in 1978), there is an
> interview with Prowse where he states unambiguously that Darth Vader
> is Luke Skywalker's father
<SNIP>
It must be true then.
--
electroretro
prepare to qualify,space cadet
www.electroretro.co.uk
"Magical Spell is Ei-Ei-Poo!"
MustKillMoe-Wheee!
"Yorick" <johnny_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ad6c80f0.04110...@posting.google.com...
> Despite indications to the contrary in the Star Wars documentary
> "Empire of Dreams", David Prowse certainly knew that Darth Vader was
> Luke's father well before undertaking filming of Empire. In a magazine
> devoted mainly to Hammer horror films (published in 1978), there is an
> interview with Prowse where he states unambiguously that Darth Vader
> revealed in the "next movie". He comments that this is why Vader can't
> kill Luke and Luke can't kill Vader - they're father and son. I have
> this magazine still (Christopher Lee in Dracula regalia is on the
> reading this on the train home one day and being stunned by the
> information (I was 14) in the same way that audiences would be a
> couple of years later. After that I avoided reading anythng about any
> movie that I was interested in for fear of reading more spoilers (but
> I guess that was the daddy of them all).
>
> It may well be, though, that Prowse was later put off the scent, so to
> speak, by a dummy script - but at some point early in the picture
> Lucas must have taken him into his confidence and revealed all. I and
> anyone else who read that magazine back in 78 knew what was coming all
> along.
Can you scan the article and post it to the binaries?
Brett McConnie
news:ad6c80f0.04110...@posting.google.com...
> Despite indications to the contrary in the Star Wars documentary
> "Empire of Dreams", David Prowse certainly knew that Darth Vader was
> Luke's father well before undertaking filming of Empire. In a magazine
> devoted mainly to Hammer horror films (published in 1978), there is an
> interview with Prowse where he states unambiguously that Darth Vader
> is Luke Skywalker's father, and tells how that information will be
> revealed in the "next movie". He comments that this is why Vader can't
> kill Luke and Luke can't kill Vader - they're father and son. I have
> this magazine still (Christopher Lee in Dracula regalia is on the
> cover) and this information is there in black and white. I remember
> reading this on the train home one day and being stunned by the
> information (I was 14) in the same way that audiences would be a
> couple of years later. After that I avoided reading anythng about any
> movie that I was interested in for fear of reading more spoilers (but
> I guess that was the daddy of them all).
Alas poor Yorick.
--
"Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone."
Mike Ward
news:ad6c80f0.04110...@posting.google.com:
> Despite indications to the contrary in the Star Wars documentary
> "Empire of Dreams", David Prowse certainly knew that Darth Vader was
> Luke's father well before undertaking filming of Empire. In a magazine
> devoted mainly to Hammer horror films (published in 1978), there is an
> interview with Prowse where he states unambiguously that Darth Vader
> is Luke Skywalker's father, and tells how that information will be
> revealed in the "next movie". He comments that this is why Vader can't
> kill Luke and Luke can't kill Vader - they're father and son. I have
> this magazine still (Christopher Lee in Dracula regalia is on the
> cover) and this information is there in black and white.
And yet you still don't seem to know the name of the magazine.
> I remember
> reading this on the train home one day and being stunned by the
> information (I was 14) in the same way that audiences would be a
> couple of years later. After that I avoided reading anythng about any
> movie that I was interested in for fear of reading more spoilers (but
> I guess that was the daddy of them all).
>
Richmond
"C'Pi" <as...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2v6rmbF...@uni-berlin.de...
> James Willmott, you magnificent bastard. I read your post:
>> I seem to remember knowing that Obiwan fought Anakin and Anakin ended
>> up in a lava pit not long after the original trilogy came out. Does
>> anyone know when or how this bit of info was released? Was it in a
>> novelisation at all?
>
> ROTJ novelisation.
> --
called "Dynamite!" (remember that one? You subscribed through your school
and it would be sent to you in class rather than at home). When it showed
up in the ROTJ novelization I remember being terribly excited by having it
confirmed in an "official" source.
B.
Chuck
> "Empire of Dreams", David Prowse certainly knew that Darth Vader was
> Luke's father well before undertaking filming of Empire. In a magazine
> devoted mainly to Hammer horror films (published in 1978), there is an
Searching for David Prowse's connection to Hammer films, I've discovered
that David Prowse and Peter Cushing had a "close" relationship as Baron
Victor Frankenstein aka Dr. Carl Victor (Peter Cushing) and David Prowse as
"The Creature/Frankenstein" . . .
Interesting choice by Lucas when casting A New Hope . ..
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071519/
Also, there seems to be a relationship with Christopher Lee to Hammer Films.
http://hammerfilms.com/features/reports/nft_retrospectives.html
Still . . . I can't find any confirmation of the rumor above . . .
--
Chuck
Yorick
"Little Shop of Horrors" and the issue is Issue 4, April, 1978. I have
found a copy of it here:
http://www.geocities.com/moviemags/lsh.html
It's the one with the banner that says "Hammer Yesterday, Today and
Tomorrow".
I am typing this while on my lunch break at work, so I can't give you
the page number as the mag is at home. I will try to have it up
tomorrow. Re the requests for images, I'm not sure how to do that, but
if someone is interested in providing some instructions, I'm happy to
scan and put up the relevant pages.
Thanks,
Yorick
"Chuck" <yada...@blah.blah> wrote in message news:<F4-dna5cNot...@comcast.com>...
Yorick
I have found the page number without having to go home and get the
magazine. It is page 105, and the article is entitled "Darth Vader
Lives". It is referred to here:
http://www.space1999.net/~catacombs/main/ref/wrefgmagus.htm
In summary:
"Little Shoppe of Horrors" magazine
Issue #4, April 1978
Page 105 (split): "Darth Vader Lives"
I hope that's definite enough for you.
Thanks,
Yorick
"Chuck" <yada...@blah.blah> wrote in message news:<F4-dna5cNot...@comcast.com>...
C'Pi
> Ah, the internet...! So comprehensive!
>
> I have found the page number without having to go home and get the
> magazine. It is page 105, and the article is entitled "Darth Vader
> Lives". It is referred to here:
>
> http://www.space1999.net/~catacombs/main/ref/wrefgmagus.htm
>
> In summary:
>
> "Little Shoppe of Horrors" magazine
> Issue #4, April 1978
> Page 105 (split): "Darth Vader Lives"
>
> I hope that's definite enough for you.
>
> Thanks,
Can you scan the article and post it? Or maybe quote the relevant parts?
Chuck
>
> I have found the page number without having to go home and get the
> magazine. It is page 105, and the article is entitled "Darth Vader
> Lives". It is referred to here:
>
> http://www.space1999.net/~catacombs/main/ref/wrefgmagus.htm
>
> In summary:
>
> "Little Shoppe of Horrors" magazine
> Issue #4, April 1978
> Page 105 (split): "Darth Vader Lives"
>
> I hope that's definite enough for you.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Yorick
>
Well, the mag exists here:
http://www.littleshoppeofhorrors.com/History.htm
But, they're all out of print and apparently not online.
Found another "rumor" while searching:
http://www.photodiary.org/ph_a_6580.shtml
Here's a pin
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/vintagepimp1/vinstarwarda.html
Found a lame article
http://www.geocities.com/chmrshows/expo/expo2.html
Well . . . that's about it.
--
Chuck
Yorick
I've checked my hard copy and the page reference I found on the net
earlier today is incorrect.
The article in Issue 4 of Little Shop of Horrors from April 1978
begins on page 18, then continues to page 22, with an errorneous
"continued on" refering to page 106 (the article actually continues on
page 103).
The relevant quote is on page 21, paragraph 2, column 1, beneath a
photo of Prowse and Kenny Baker:
"DP: In the film, Alec Guiness goes to great lengths to explain to
poor Luke how his father had been killed by Darth Vader. Luke's father
was killed by Darth Vader, right? And how Darth Vader turned to evil,
etc., etc. His father was good and all this sort of thing. In the next
film, there is going to be a confrontation between Luke and Darth
Vader and they discover that Darth Vader never killed his father, that
Darth Vader IS his father. So son can't kill father, and father can't
kill son--so Darth Vader lives to the next sequel."
By the way, the reason I posted in the first place is because I was
looking for other references to this interview, as I was sure there's
be someone else out there besides me who'd read this. This was
prompted, as I said earlier, by the comments in the doco in the DVD
set.
As for remembering where I was when I read it, it was one of those
"where were you when Kennedy was shot" things. I was a 14 yr old fan,
and I was shocked!
The defence rests.
Yorick
"Chuck" <yada...@blah.blah> wrote in message news:<F4-dna5cNot...@comcast.com>...
C'Pi
It's not that we don't believe you, it's just that we don't believe you.
Well, I'm willing to believe you, I'd just like to see the article for
myself. It challenges some long held beliefs. One is that Lucas kept all
of this a secret, especially from Prowse. There is also the thought, not
necessarily mine, that Lucas didn't even come up with the idea of Vader
being Luke's father until some time after starting the second draft of ESB.
A draft that was started in April, 1978, the same time the article was being
published.
Who knows, maybe Prowse got Lucas liquored up one night and got him to spill
the beans.
C'Pi
Andrew Murray
Obiwan finally tells Luke the truth after hearing from Yoda that Vader is his
father. Obiwan tells the story of how Anakin becomes Vader - although
abbreviated.....but the story he tells LUke is basically what the prequels have
been about, including Episode III.
FOr instance, Obiwan meets Anakin as a boy, he's a skilled pilot (Pod racer in
this case), has skills in the force that frighten the Jedi Council, hence their
objecting to him being trained. Of course the prequels don't go far enough back
to see Yoda training Obiwan, but we can assume Obiwan as a padawan learner was
tutored by Yoda - we know that as an apprentice, he learned under Qui-Gon.
and yes it is in the James Kahn novelisation of the ROTJ movie.
If you have the DVD trilogy, watch it again....the bit you're talking about takes
place on Dagobah, after Luke has rescued Han from Jabba the Hutt, and returns to
complete his training, but finds Yoda dying.
When Yoda dies, Luke goes out of the hut, and Obiwan's force-ghost materialises,
and Luke has a go at him about lying about his father's fate....to which Ben says
the 'certain point of view' stuff.
"James Willmott" <nos...@nospam.com.au> wrote in message
news:Aenjd.23342$K7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Ryan Robbins
"Andrew Murray" <SPAMadBUS...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:41909d41$0$6555$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> The 'lava pit' stuff is in Return of the Jedi.
>
> Obiwan finally tells Luke the truth after hearing from Yoda that Vader is
> his
> father. Obiwan tells the story of how Anakin becomes Vader - although
> abbreviated.....but the story he tells LUke is basically what the prequels
> have
> been about, including Episode III.
>
> FOr instance, Obiwan meets Anakin as a boy, he's a skilled pilot (Pod
> racer in
> this case),
Well, Obi-Wan actually says he met Anakin when Anakin was a young pilot. I
doubt very much that at the time Lucas had "pod racer pilot" in mind.
Ryan Robbins
>
> I've checked my hard copy and the page reference I found on the net
> earlier today is incorrect.
>
> The article in Issue 4 of Little Shop of Horrors from April 1978
> begins on page 18, then continues to page 22, with an errorneous
> "continued on" refering to page 106 (the article actually continues on
> page 103).
>
> The relevant quote is on page 21, paragraph 2, column 1, beneath a
> photo of Prowse and Kenny Baker:
>
> "DP: In the film, Alec Guiness goes to great lengths to explain to
> poor Luke how his father had been killed by Darth Vader. Luke's father
> was killed by Darth Vader, right? And how Darth Vader turned to evil,
> etc., etc. His father was good and all this sort of thing. In the next
> film, there is going to be a confrontation between Luke and Darth
> Vader and they discover
Who are "they"?
Mike Kohary
>
> Well, I'm willing to believe you, I'd just like to see the article for
> myself.
I think the OP has aquitted himself admirably. I think it's safe to say
he's telling the truth.
> It challenges some long held beliefs. One is that Lucas
> kept all of this a secret, especially from Prowse.
The story has always been that the script contained a different line, and
that's what Prowse spoke during filming. James Earl Jones was supposedly
the only one to speak the real lines, during post production of course and
under great secrecy. But who knows? It wouldn't have been so hard for
Prowse to discern from reading the rest of the script for context, and
perhaps he slipped that once and then was shackled by Lucas for the
remainder.
> There is also the
> thought, not necessarily mine, that Lucas didn't even come up with
> the idea of Vader being Luke's father until some time after starting
> the second draft of ESB.
This has always been mere speculation, and in my opinion, not to be taken
very seriously. Only Lucas really knows when he came up with this idea.
The ease with which it fits previous dialogue in Star Wars is a little too
much to think it's mere coincidence or contrivance.
> Who knows, maybe Prowse got Lucas liquored up one night and got him
> to spill the beans.
Maybe. :)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Kohary mike at kohary dot com http://www.kohary.com
Karma Photography: http://www.karmaphotography.com
Seahawks Historical Database: http://www.kohary.com/seahawks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C'Pi
> C'Pi wrote:
>>
>> Well, I'm willing to believe you, I'd just like to see the article
>> for myself.
>
> I think the OP has aquitted himself admirably. I think it's safe to
> say he's telling the truth.
>
>> It challenges some long held beliefs. One is that Lucas
>> kept all of this a secret, especially from Prowse.
>
> The story has always been that the script contained a different line,
> and that's what Prowse spoke during filming. James Earl Jones was
> supposedly the only one to speak the real lines, during post
> production of course and under great secrecy. But who knows? It
> wouldn't have been so hard for Prowse to discern from reading the
> rest of the script for context, and perhaps he slipped that once and
> then was shackled by Lucas for the remainder.
Considering the script was only beginning its second draft when the article
was published it's a little hard to say Prowse had seen the script. The
script didn't even exist. And listening to the ESB commentary it would seem
Prowse was pretty surprised about the whole thing when he saw the movie.
Mike Kohary
Hell, it could be that the magazine made the whole thing up.
Mikl
> C'Pi wrote:
>
>>Mike Kohary, you magnificent bastard. I read your post:
>>
>>>C'Pi wrote:
>>>
>>>>Well, I'm willing to believe you, I'd just like to see the article
>>>>for myself.
>>>
>>>I think the OP has aquitted himself admirably. I think it's safe to
>>>say he's telling the truth.
>>>
>>>
>>>>It challenges some long held beliefs. One is that Lucas
>>>>kept all of this a secret, especially from Prowse.
>>>
>>>The story has always been that the script contained a different line,
>>>and that's what Prowse spoke during filming. James Earl Jones was
>>>supposedly the only one to speak the real lines, during post
>>>production of course and under great secrecy. But who knows? It
>>>wouldn't have been so hard for Prowse to discern from reading the
>>>rest of the script for context, and perhaps he slipped that once and
>>>then was shackled by Lucas for the remainder.
>>
>>Considering the script was only beginning its second draft when the
>>article was published it's a little hard to say Prowse had seen the
>>script. The script didn't even exist. And listening to the ESB
>>commentary it would seem Prowse was pretty surprised about the whole
>>thing when he saw the movie.
>
>
> Hell, it could be that the magazine made the whole thing up.
>
/Mikkel
Mike Ward
news:cmr7na$2cns$1...@news.cybercity.dk:
Maybe they were wrong. Then GL read the magazine and said "What a great
idea!"
Mike Ward
> C'Pi wrote:
>>
>> Well, I'm willing to believe you, I'd just like to see the article
>> for myself.
>
> I think the OP has aquitted himself admirably. I think it's safe to
> say he's telling the truth.
Like C'Pi I'd have to see it for myself. There are too many reasons not to
believe it to take an anonymous strangers word for it.
>
>> It challenges some long held beliefs. One is that Lucas
>> kept all of this a secret, especially from Prowse.
>
> The story has always been that the script contained a different line,
> and that's what Prowse spoke during filming. James Earl Jones was
> supposedly the only one to speak the real lines, during post
> production of course and under great secrecy. But who knows? It
> wouldn't have been so hard for Prowse to discern from reading the rest
> of the script for context, and perhaps he slipped that once and then
> was shackled by Lucas for the remainder.
>
>> There is also the
>> thought, not necessarily mine, that Lucas didn't even come up with
>> the idea of Vader being Luke's father until some time after starting
>> the second draft of ESB.
>
> This has always been mere speculation, and in my opinion, not to be
> taken very seriously. Only Lucas really knows when he came up with
> this idea. The ease with which it fits previous dialogue in Star Wars
> is a little too much to think it's mere coincidence or contrivance.
Well GL apparently did not tell Leigh Bracket about Vader being Luke's
father when she wrote the first draft. Seems strange that he would share
the big secret with the actor at a time when he was keeping it from the
writer.
>
>> Who knows, maybe Prowse got Lucas liquored up one night and got him
>> to spill the beans.
>
> Maybe. :)
>
Or maybe it was Prowse's idea for Vader to be Luke's father :)
But I'm going to have to have some independent verification of this quote
before I accept it.
Mike
Yorick
Yorick
"Ryan Robbins" <redbi...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<Eg1kd.104$8N4.52@trndny09>...
Mike Kohary
> Okay, it's scanned. Now what do I do?
>
> Yorick
If you want, you can send it to me and I'll post it on my website, then post
the address here. You can send it to:
mike at kohary dot com
Use the appropriate symbols instead of "at" and "dot", of course. Just
trying to prevent spambots from finding me. ;)
Mike
--
Solon
> Well, Obi-Wan actually says he met Anakin when Anakin was a young pilot. I
> doubt very much that at the time Lucas had "pod racer pilot" in mind.
Does that matter?
Solon
> The defence rests.
You've got to be joking if "The defence rests".
"I want proof, not leads!"
Yorick
Thanks,
Yorick
"Mike Kohary" <so...@no.spam> wrote in message news:<cmrfsg$441$0...@pita.alt.net>...
Yorick
> _Yorick_ spoke thusly:
> > The defence rests.
>
> You've got to be joking if "The defence rests".
>
> "I want proof, not leads!"
...and look what happened to the chappie that uttered those (famous
last) words.
I prefer "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (Carl
Sagan). But I understand where you're coming from. I have scanned the
article and sent it to Mike K (above) who said he'd post it on his web
site. Short of you coming to Sydney and seeing the bloddy thing with
your own eyes, that's the best I can do.
Actually, the inside cover says that the magazine was published in the
US, so you may be able to look it up c/o the Library of Congress. If
you live in a large US city, it may be archived in the periodicals
section (if it's like here, where all publications in Aust have to
lodged in the National Library or whatever it's called in Canberra).
Yorick
Mike Kohary
>
> I prefer "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (Carl
> Sagan). But I understand where you're coming from. I have scanned the
> article and sent it to Mike K (above) who said he'd post it on his web
> site. Short of you coming to Sydney and seeing the bloddy thing with
> your own eyes, that's the best I can do.
Also one of my favorite Sagan quotes - he had many great ones. :) Here is
the scan in all its glory:
http://www.kohary.com/images/prowse.jpg
> Actually, the inside cover says that the magazine was published in the
> US, so you may be able to look it up c/o the Library of Congress. If
> you live in a large US city, it may be archived in the periodicals
> section (if it's like here, where all publications in Aust have to
> lodged in the National Library or whatever it's called in Canberra).
Another excellent idea for those who must see it in person. For my part,
I'm sold, and it's interesting that Prowse apparently knew this so far ahead
of time.
Richmond
other sites with this?
B.
"Mike Kohary" <so...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:cmtais$kkd$0...@pita.alt.net...
Mike Kohary
> This is a pretty cool find. Have you guys contacted theforce.net or
> any other sites with this?
No, but now that you've suggested it, I guess maybe we should...
Mike
Mike Ward
> Yorick wrote:
>>
>> I prefer "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (Carl
>> Sagan). But I understand where you're coming from. I have scanned the
>> article and sent it to Mike K (above) who said he'd post it on his
>> web site. Short of you coming to Sydney and seeing the bloddy thing
>> with your own eyes, that's the best I can do.
>
> Also one of my favorite Sagan quotes - he had many great ones. :)
> Here is the scan in all its glory:
>
> http://www.kohary.com/images/prowse.jpg
>
>> Actually, the inside cover says that the magazine was published in
>> the US, so you may be able to look it up c/o the Library of Congress.
>> If you live in a large US city, it may be archived in the periodicals
>> section (if it's like here, where all publications in Aust have to
>> lodged in the National Library or whatever it's called in Canberra).
>
> Another excellent idea for those who must see it in person. For my
> part, I'm sold, and it's interesting that Prowse apparently knew this
> so far ahead of time.
>
Very interesting. Assuming it's legit (at it appears to be at this point)
I wounder if the bit about Prowse being given a fake line in the scene in
ESB might not still be true.
After all if Prowse was such a blabber mouth, they may have decided that
they needed to make him beleive that the idea of have Luke be Anakin's son
had been changed.
Mike
DKM
"Mike Ward" <m@d.w> wrote in message
news:AZvkd.5007$7i4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Very interesting. Assuming it's legit (at it appears to be at this point)
> I wounder if the bit about Prowse being given a fake line in the scene in
> ESB might not still be true.
>
> After all if Prowse was such a blabber mouth, they may have decided that
> they needed to make him beleive that the idea of have Luke be Anakin's son
> had been changed.
That's very true, but here is another way of looking at it.
If Vader had said the fake line "Obi Wan killed your father" it could still
fit in. From his "point of view" Anakin was killed by Obi Wan in there
first battle, and Vader was born from his remains.
DKM