Nocturnal Emissions
Caius Marcius
In <AF0B230...@203.120.76.75> "Nicki & Neale Paterson"
<nea...@pacific.net.sg> writes:
>
>Hello!
>
Welcome back!
>I would be interested to know what DSCH pieces have the effect that I
have
>described on others - not those monumental works that everyone knows
and
>loves (but, quite frankly, would rather not see yet *another*
recording of)
>- the smaller works that occupy a particular and special niche in the
>consciousness. Flame me if this has been done recently...
>
You might try doing a Dejanews search (www.dejanews.com) over the
months you've missed. Dejanews guarantees that the wit and wisdom
daily displayed over the Greatest Newsgroup of Our Very Complicated
Times does not vanish forever down the Toxic Waste Dump of Time (that's
a New Jersey metaphor).
>In parting, I have had, regretfully, to ask my News Reader to purge
all
>'redrick' posts. Their droll humour begins to wears thin. I think that
Rick
>has some valid points, and ones that ought to be discussed, but to
come
>back to the group after such a time and see the same tired posts in an
>endless loop, with Redrick snapping at everyone's heels like a
dime-store
>Thersites, is really too much. Yes, Thersites' tirades contained their
fair
>share of wisdom, but they didn't make him any friends. What is the
point of
>a group like this if not for the friendly exchange of opinion?
>
Recent research has revealed that redrick is really not an actual
person, but a computer program whose origins remain obscure (the most
convincing theory is that it sprang from a mutation between the Good
Times and Hare Krishna viruses). This program does a word search
through AFS, and if certain key phrases (e.g., "Volkov", "Stalin",
"MacDonald", usw) appear in conjunction with "inappropriate" positive
or negative adjectives, the program generates a response based on a
very limited reportorie of steroetyped phrases. This would explain,
for example, the high degree of repitition in responses generated by
the redrick program, especially the end quotations. There is some
evidence that the program can adapt and learn new computational
patterns; e.g., it has now apparently learned to always generate a
response to anything posted by Fred or Earl.
- CMC
Nicki & Neale Paterson
Hello!
I've just started reading this group again, after nine months or so offline
due to our relocation from Australia to Singapore. We're still waiting for
many of our things to arrive, and amongst those things is my precious DSCH
collection. There are a few decent CD stores here (although bland
middle-of-the-road pop is the order of the day, and the one 'classical'
radio station finds it hard to distinguish between Mozart and Kenny G) but
I have felt little desire, so far, to try to recreate my collection - there
comes a time, I find, when, with the music that has meant most to one,
recordings and performances are almost redundant. The music is in one's
head, and is always available.
Lying awake on these hot tropical nights, I find that certain pieces of
music are particularly present. Oddly enough, of all DSCH's oeuvre it is
not the big pieces but the late violin and viola sonatas that recur most
often (particularly the latter) - followed, at a distance, by the 14th &
15th Symphonies and the 13th & 15th String Quartets (you can see what a
gloomy blighter I am!). There is something inexpressibly haunting about all
of the late works, but what makes the sonatas so special to me is, I think,
the interplay between violin/viola and piano. The strings are typical late
DSCH: sombre, nocturnal, distant, while the piano, although frequently
minimal, put me in mind of the younger, quirkier DSCH. It is as if those
two personae were in a midnight dialogue with each other. This gives them
a particularly poignant and approachable quality which is not always
present, for me, in the Quartets.
(Is there any substantial musical analysis of DSCH's late works? One of the
major disappointments of Ian Macdonald's book is the way they are almost
completely ignored, except where they have 'political' overtones. The
sublime 14th Symphony relegated to an aside in a footnote!)
I would be interested to know what DSCH pieces have the effect that I have
described on others - not those monumental works that everyone knows and
loves (but, quite frankly, would rather not see yet *another* recording of)
- the smaller works that occupy a particular and special niche in the
consciousness. Flame me if this has been done recently...
In parting, I have had, regretfully, to ask my News Reader to purge all
'redrick' posts. Their droll humour begins to wears thin. I think that Rick
has some valid points, and ones that ought to be discussed, but to come
back to the group after such a time and see the same tired posts in an
endless loop, with Redrick snapping at everyone's heels like a dime-store
Thersites, is really too much. Yes, Thersites' tirades contained their fair
share of wisdom, but they didn't make him any friends. What is the point of
a group like this if not for the friendly exchange of opinion?
Cheers!
...Neale...
es...@cornell.edu
Nicki & Neale Paterson ask:
>What is the point of a group like this if not for the friendly exchange
>of opinion?
The friendliness actually reminds me of any other number of complacent
coteries where going beyond certain bounds of discussion brings sharp but
not particularly reasoned rebuttal. I prefer redrick's "sneering" (to
quote another poster) reason to all your charmingly expressed shared
delusions, which do no service to Dmitri Shostakovich, to other members
of the extremely varied society he lived in, or to history.
-
Eric Schissel
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1489
and see an essay on Miaskovskii at
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~jimmosk/schissel.html
redrick
"Nicki & Neale Paterson" <nea...@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
>(Is there any substantial musical analysis of DSCH's late works?
"Words and Music in Late Shostakovich" by *Malcolm* MacDonald (the real
musicologist) in "Shostakovich The Man and His Music", ed. Christopher
Norris, pub. Marion Boyars, 1982.
> One of the
>major disappointments of Ian Macdonald's book is the way they are almost
>completely ignored, except where they have 'political' overtones. The
>sublime 14th Symphony relegated to an aside in a footnote!)
>
Correction, that's except where Ian MacDonald *claims* they have "political
overtones". Usually they don't. Be happy he didn't trash the 14th as
well. (Probably beyond his ken.) There are much better things written
about it, but as the Patersons aren't reading this...
>'redrick' posts. Their droll humour begins to wears thin. I think that Rick
>has some valid points, and ones that ought to be discussed, but to come
>back to the group after such a time and see the same tired posts in an
>endless loop
Neale doesn't object to the same tired false assertions I'm responding to,
only to my continuing to point out that they are false. I try to freshen
my "droll" humor as much as possible, but there are only lo many ways to
say, "That dog won't hunt."
>Yes, Thersites' tirades contained their fair
>share of wisdom, but they didn't make him any friends. What is the point of
>a group like this if not for the friendly exchange of opinion?
>
And the best way to keep it friendly is to maintain the political orthodoxy
the Paterson's and others would no-doubt enjoy. I have no particular
desire to make friends, especially among the closed-minded. My principle
purpose here is to let newcomers know that not only is there an alternative
to the cultish cold-war propaganda that dominates a.f.s., but that in more
learned circles that alternative is the main stream.
-Rick http://www.az.com/~redrick/Shostakovich.html
--
red...@az.com
It is hugely ironic that, of all things, Soviet music
should attain a cult popularity among certain right-wingers
of today based on the imaginary anti-Sovietism of Soviet
composers. What is doubly ironic is that, thanks to the school
of Socialist Realism, Soviet music is the only 20th century
music they (think they) can understand.
ega...@aol.com
In article
<2be0d69f&Pine.SOL.3.91.97...@travelers.mail.cornell.edu>,
es...@cornell.edu writes:
>The friendliness actually reminds me of any other number of complacent
>coteries where going beyond certain bounds of discussion brings sharp but
>not particularly reasoned rebuttal. I prefer redrick's "sneering" (to
>quote another poster) reason to all your charmingly expressed shared
>delusions, which do no service to Dmitri Shostakovich, to other members
>of the extremely varied society he lived in, or to history.
>
>
There is actually very little relation of "shared delusions." However,
RedRick reacts to any expression of opinion or reason contrary to his
liking with such sneering, and will accuse others of holding opinions they
do not express in order to create an opportunity to promote his own
opinions. Earl.
Q.
Nicki & Neale Paterson wrote:
>
> Lying awake on these hot tropical nights, I find that certain pieces of
> music are particularly present. Oddly enough, of all DSCH's oeuvre it is
> not the big pieces but the late violin and viola sonatas that recur most
> often (particularly the latter) - followed, at a distance, by the 14th &
> 15th Symphonies and the 13th & 15th String Quartets (you can see what a
> gloomy blighter I am!). There is something inexpressibly haunting about all
> of the late works, but what makes the sonatas so special to me is, I think,
> the interplay between violin/viola and piano. The strings are typical late
> DSCH: sombre, nocturnal, distant, while the piano, although frequently
> minimal, put me in mind of the younger, quirkier DSCH. It is as if those
> two personae were in a midnight dialogue with each other. This gives them
> a particularly poignant and approachable quality which is not always
> present, for me, in the Quartets.
>
> described on others - not those monumental works that everyone knows and
> loves (but, quite frankly, would rather not see yet *another* recording of)
> - the smaller works that occupy a particular and special niche in the
> consciousness. Flame me if this has been done recently...
My #1 DSCH-that-sticks-in-my-head-bits are the opening movements of the
9th and 10th quartets. There is something about the first few bars about
the 9th that leaves me reeling, almost breathless. As for the 10th (may
I add - WHAT a 2nd movt!), I think it's just the eerily
friendly/disturbing major chord resolutions (with the 3 repeated note
motif alternating between parts). The Passacaglia from the 1st violin
concerto was and still is huge in its impact for me, but that might
qualify as one of "those monumental works that everyone knows etc....".
I find that the very first (C major) prelude of Op. 80 sticks in my
head, especially where the gentle, innocuous opening melts into a
discord... The whole of the 2nd violin concerto tends to stick in my
mind - this is a *very* big piece but not often performed and even less
recorded. I find that the viola sonata affects me the same way (and a
lot of my DSCH-loving friends say the same thing); I find in general
that the chamber music has more of that effect than the big,
symphonic/concerto works. They have their own impact, but it is entirely
different to that of the chamber works.
There is more I could say, but I have rattled on enough :)
- Q.
Nicki & Neale Paterson
Q. <minh...@labyrinth.net.au> wrote:
>The whole of the 2nd violin concerto tends to stick in my mind - this
>is a *very* big piece but not often performed and even less recorded.
I feel the same way about the 2nd cello concerto. It has always put me
in mind, for some reason, of King Lear: the long brooding opening, the
archaic fanfares that lead into the finale, in which that extraordinary
and melancholy little phrase keeps popping up in the middle of all the
seriousness, like the fool grinning wanly and rattling his bells.
DSCH, in his later years, seemed much pre-occupied with Lear: I wonder
if there is any basis for my programmatic interpretation. Probably not.
But the piece has such an odd, theatrical quality it seems to me to beg
some such. Any other suggestions?
Cheers!
...Neale...
Opus47
Oh, uh, pardon me I thought this was a discussion about the first
movement of the 1st Violin Concerto.
Fred
Caius Marcius
In <1997012621...@max82ppp163.pacific.net.sg>
nea...@pacific.net.sg (Nicki & Neale Paterson) writes:
>
>
>DSCH, in his later years, seemed much pre-occupied with Lear: I wonder
Cello Concerto]. Probably not.
>But the piece has such an odd, theatrical quality it seems to me to
beg
>some such. Any other suggestions?
>
I haven't noticed any thematic links between Cello Concerto II and the
incidental music or film score for Lear, but I've often overlooked (as
opposed to overheard) such things in other works. Has anyone noticed a
connection?
And does anyone know if the Kosintsev film of Lear (1970) is available
on video - or if it has it ever been shown stateside? Has anyone on AFS
ever seen it?
- CMC
Caius Marcius
In <32f0ba67...@news.az.com> red...@az.com (redrick) writes:
>
> It is hugely ironic that, of all things, Soviet music
> should attain a cult popularity among certain right-wingers
> of today based on the imaginary anti-Sovietism of Soviet
> composers. What is doubly ironic is that, thanks to the school
> of Socialist Realism, Soviet music is the only 20th century
> music they (think they) can understand.
"Socialist Realism" requires an author to describe, not so much what
really happened, as to what ought to have happened, or at any rate what
might have happened. This method, false and hypocritical in intention,
has in fact destroyed Russian literature, which has produced so much
that was great in the past"
A. Anatoli, Babi-Yar (1961)
By Anatoli's definition, DSCH's music is the very opposite of
Socialist-Realist.
- CMC
Bernard
cori...@ix.netcom.com(Caius Marcius) writes:
> And does anyone know if the Kosintsev film of Lear (1970) is available
> on video - or if it has it ever been shown stateside? Has anyone on AFS
> ever seen it?
>
> - CMC
I have it in my collection, but haven't watched it yet. If you
give me some incentive, I will....
Bernard.
ps I have his Hamlet too.
Bernard
Maybe you're just joking at Redrick's extremely repetitive and
therefore tedious signature files, but on a serious note, I think
he's right here.
He doesn't say that DDS is a member of the school of Sotsrealism,
and I agree to such an extent that DDS was pressured or influenced
(whichever you prefer) by that school, with the result that his
music is indeed much more accessible than it could have been had
there been no Communists and Sotsrealism.
Bernard.
ega...@aol.com
In article <5cif8p$9...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
cori...@ix.netcom.com(Caius Marcius) writes:
>
>By Anatoli's definition, DSCH's music is the very opposite of
>Socialist-Realist.
>
> - CMC
No matter how CMC aids me by supplying real sources for the answers to
some of our historical questions, I must once again commit heresy by
suggesting that DSCH is not untouched by the less refined aspects of the
composers art, and does show the influence of Socialist-Realism. I refer
here to at least the 12th Symphony and Song of the Forests. I can not
speak with regards to other works I have not heard, as Sun Shines Over the
Motherland.
Earl the Heretic.
ega...@aol.com
In article <5cii3d$8...@news1.relcom.ru>, Bernard <5521...@g23.relcom.ru>
writes:
>
>He doesn't say that DDS is a member of the school of Sotsrealism,
>and I agree to such an extent that DDS was pressured or influenced
>(whichever you prefer) by that school, with the result that his
>music is indeed much more accessible than it could have been had
>there been no Communists and Sotsrealism.
>
>Bernard.
I have always agreed that what Bernard notes is most likely true; that the
conservative trends in the USSR to keep music "understandable" led to
DSCH's work being more easily available to all. I feel that the area of
production that was aided the greatest by this trend was in vocal music.
Compare the outputs of Britten and Tippett, where the instrumental music
is approachable but the vocal music is much less natural.
Earl
Nicki & Neale Paterson
Caius Marcius <cori...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> By Anatoli's definition, DSCH's music is the very opposite of
> Socialist-Realist.
Quoting a dissident as your authority won't satisfy Rick, I fear - even
one who started life as a model 'Son of the State'. Mikhail Sholokhov,
on the other hand - paraded by the Soviets as the foremost exponent of
the principles of Socialist Realism in literature, when he was asked to
define that notoriously slippery term, said (something like): 'Socialist
realism? It's whatever the commissars want it to be!' And he was a State
Hero...
It certainly did for literature, as Anatoli said. As to music, though, I
think Rick has a point, although not the one, perhaps, he thinks he is
making. Literature, because of its cultural specificity, is particularly
allergic to State Decrees. But music, because of its interpretive open-
ness, can exist, I think, on a somewhat finer razor's edge of compromise
and concealment. The 'reactionary' tenets of Socialist Realism certainly
encouraged the continuation (and mummification) of romantic 19th century
models in music, and these, in their turn, encouraged programmatic
interpretations of the works created in its shadow. The Soviets did it,
and now it's the revisionists' turn. Every dogma has its day.
But to suggest that Socialist Realism *created* DSCH, as Rick seems to
want to imply, would require a great deal of proving - unless what he is
trying to say, in his arch and gnomic way, is that it is the vulgarity,
conservatism and bombast of Socialist Realism at its worst that appeals
to the 'certain right-wingers' he refers to. Socialist Realism was the
setting in which DSCH worked, at least for a part of his musical career,
and it channelled his genius into particular directions (by no means bad
ones, always - a great composer can always make silk purses out of sow's
ears). But did Bartok owe his genius to Capitalism because he wrote his
music in and for a capitalist culture?
Cheers!
...Neale...
Caius Marcius
In <19970128023...@ladder01.news.aol.com> ega...@aol.com
writes:
How much of that is due to the influence of Socialist Realism and how
much to the natural trends of Russian art? Russia, due to a number of
cultural and geographic factors, by bypassed by many of the trends and
movements which swept the West, including much of "art for art's sake"
elitism which began in the West in the 19th-Century, and reached full
flower in the 20th. Russian artists have usually taken great pains to
communicate with their audiences - in spite of some experiemntal pieces
from the 1920s, I don't think DSCH would have started writing
twelve-tone symphonies and atonal klavierstucke in the absence of
SocReal guidelines. More than likely, he would have become the
preeminent operatic composer of our century, which even more
presupposes an artist-audience relationship.
- CMC
ker...@ibm.net
In <5cigob$c...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>, cori...@ix.netcom.com(Caius Marcius) writes:
>
>
>And does anyone know if the Kosintsev film of Lear (1970) is available
>on video - or if it has it ever been shown stateside? Has anyone on AFS
>ever seen it?
>
I got _King Lear_ via a mail order place in Philadelphia (name escapes me).
The quality of the transfer is so execrable on the release I have it is hard
to judge the film. I have seen 1920s movies that are less screwed up. I
think that if it were not so hard to watch, the film might be impressive.
Michael Kerpan
Stone Mountain, GA
redrick
nea...@pacific.net.sg (Nicki & Neale Paterson) wrote:
>But to suggest that Socialist Realism *created* DSCH, as Rick seems to
>want to imply
Nope, never said meant or meant to imply that.
>unless what he is
>trying to say, in his arch and gnomic way, is that it is the vulgarity,
>conservatism and bombast of Socialist Realism at its worst that appeals
>to the 'certain right-wingers' he refers to.
That's more like it! I should have said it kept the harmony simple enough
for the rednecks, but Neale's rhetoric is far more splendidly arch and
gnomic.
>But did Bartok owe his genius to Capitalism because he wrote his
>music in and for a capitalist culture?
>
The same might be said of Karl Marx.
-Rick
--
red...@az.com http://www.az.com/~redrick/Shostakovich.html
redrick
ega...@aol.com wrote:
>In article <5cii3d$8...@news1.relcom.ru>, Bernard <5521...@g23.relcom.ru>
>writes:
>
>>
>>He doesn't say that DDS is a member of the school of Sotsrealism,
>>and I agree to such an extent that DDS was pressured or influenced
>>(whichever you prefer) by that school, with the result that his
>>music is indeed much more accessible than it could have been had
>>there been no Communists and Sotsrealism.
>>
>I have always agreed that what Bernard notes is most likely true
And I agree with Earl who agrees with Bernard who interprets my sig
correctly as does Neale. Shared delusion?
-The Arch and Gnomic One
ega...@aol.com
In article <5cl18v$g...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
cori...@ix.netcom.com(Caius Marcius) writes:
>
>How much of that is due to the influence of Socialist Realism and how
>much to the natural trends of Russian art? Russia, due to a number of
>cultural and geographic factors, by bypassed by many of the trends and
>movements which swept the West, including much of "art for art's sake"
>elitism which began in the West in the 19th-Century, and reached full
>flower in the 20th. Russian artists have usually taken great pains to
>communicate with their audiences - in spite of some experiemntal pieces
>from the 1920s, I don't think DSCH would have started writing
>twelve-tone symphonies and atonal klavierstucke in the absence of
>SocReal guidelines. More than likely, he would have become the
>preeminent operatic composer of our century, which even more
>presupposes an artist-audience relationship.
>
> - CMC
Obviously a valid view, but the question is of the type we will never be
able to answer as we have no control, no non-socialist Russia of the
1930-60's to compare with. I can not possibly answer whether Russian
musical tradition was strong enough to keep art music in a strong popular
or populist vein. Maybe we should be asking outselves whether the works
produced in other countries during this period has lasting popular appeal.
Perhaps we are too close to the period to answer. In the US we still
have Barber and much of Copland to satisfy us. From the USSR we will no
doubt have Shostakovich and Prokofiev, but is it possible that they alone
will survive and that their contemporaries, more conservative, will receed
from the public eye? Just some random thoughts at this instant, earl.
ker...@ibm.net
In <5ciit7$8...@news1.relcom.ru>, Bernard <5521...@g23.relcom.ru> writes:
>cori...@ix.netcom.com(Caius Marcius) writes:
>
>> And does anyone know if the Kosintsev film of Lear (1970) is available
>> on video - or if it has it ever been shown stateside? Has anyone on AFS
>> ever seen it?
>>
>
>I have it in my collection, but haven't watched it yet. If you
>give me some incentive, I will....
>
>Bernard.
>
>ps I have his Hamlet too.
Lucky you -- as far as I know hamlet is currently unavailable on this
side of the Atlantic ditch.
Caius Marcius
In <19970128204...@ladder01.news.aol.com> ega...@aol.com
writes:
>
>Essay test: In 200 words or less, answer the following - Is
Bluebeard's
>Castle more or less avant garde than Lady MacBeth? For extra credit,
send
>us the screenplay for "Lady MacBeth meets Bluebeard."
LADY MACBETH v. BLACKBEARD (short opera)
LADY M: Before you kill me, Mr. Blackbeard, have some of my mushroom
sauce. It's an an old Mtensk District recipe.
BB: Thanks - don't mind if I do (eats heartily). Excuse me, I don't
feel so good (exit).
(curtain)
ega...@aol.com
In article <32f0f949...@news.az.com>, red...@az.com (redrick)
writes:
>>But did Bartok owe his genius to Capitalism because he wrote his
>>music in and for a capitalist culture?
>>
>The same might be said of Karl Marx.
I used to have a cd of Karl Marx's "Groucho's Castle" but I loaned it to
Richard Muirdan and he lost it.
ega...@aol.com
In article <5cnlbi$9...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
cori...@ix.netcom.com(Caius Marcius) writes:
This is almost perfect, but does not have enough lurid sex. Maybe we
should prepare a screenplay for "Lady Macbeth meets the Miraculous
Mandarin." The libretto should be in one of those almost forgotten uralic
languages related to Hungarian, now spoken by fourteen people. Earl.
redrick
cori...@ix.netcom.com(Caius Marcius) wrote:
>Russian artists have usually taken great pains to
>communicate with their audiences - in spite of some experiemntal pieces
>from the 1920s
It's not just "some experimental pieces from the 1920s". You can observe a
large sea-change more approachable works from the '20s to the '30s. This
is especially noticeable in the prolific Miaskovsky. But you can already
see the difference from the Shostakovich 2nd symphony (which was
criticized) to the 3rd (1929).
-Rick
http://www.az.com/~redrick/Shostakovich.html
--
red...@az.com, in a.f.s.,
"...with teacup-storm philosophers, exploded
revisionist historians, stubbornly Steady State
cosmologists, or pallid poets..."
-Martin Amis, "The Information"