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Thoughts on "Methuselah's Children" by Robert A. Heinlein,
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a425couple
Mar 24, 2018, 9:51:16 PM3/24/18
to
"Methuselah's Children" by Robert A. Heinlein,
Written in 1941, expanded in 1958, a pretty decent story,
and gave me a couple thoughts I found worth a lot of
contemplation (I'll probably do it in a followup.).
Goodreads gives it a fair rating, good at 3.99.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/175319.Methuselah_s_Children
It gives a pretty fair thumbnail/set-up
"the United States of America at last fulfills the promise inherent
in its first Revolution: for the first time in human history there
is a nation with Liberty and Justice for All.
No one may seize or harm the person or property of another, or
invade his privacy, or force him to do his bidding. Americans
are fiercely proud of their re-won liberties and the blood it
cost them: nothing could make them forswear those truths they
hold self-evident. Nothing except the promise of immortality."
Lyn (frequent reviewer) states it well:
"Scaled down, lean and aggressive, bereft of the heavy,
introspective reticence that weighed down Time Enough for Love,
this is simply a good SF adventure with Heinlein's signature
technical attention to detail.
The origin of Lazarus Long and the adventure referenced in Time
Enough For Love, including Andy Libby and the beginning of
interstellar exploration.
A must read for Heinlein fans."
I also appreciated when Jim said, "Unlike his later books,
this one is a short, fun read. The basic premise is an
oppressed minority fleeing before the public & government
can get their greedy hands on them."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah%27s_Children
"Methuselah's Children is a science fiction novel by American
writer Robert A. Heinlein, originally serialized in Astounding
Science Fiction in the July, August, and September 1941 issues.
It was expanded into a full-length novel in 1958.
The novel is usually considered to be part of Heinlein's Future
History series of stories. It introduces the Howard Families, a
fictional group of people who achieved long lifespans through
selective breeding. The space ship in this novel, the New Frontiers,
is described in the Future History timeline as a second generation
ship, following the Vanguard, the vehicle for Heinlein's paired
novellas "Universe" and "Common Sense". ----
Plot summary
--- Ira Howard became rich --- but died of old age at 48 or 49
years old. The trustees of his will carried out his wishes to
prolong human life, by financially encouraging those with long-
lived grandparents to marry each other and have children. By the
22nd century the "Howard families" have a life expectancy exceeding
150 years and keep their existence secret with the "Masquerade"--,
also, interesting to see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masquerade_(trope)
This site,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006MITAWI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
show you can get it delivered to your door reasonably.
And it also has a pretty good thumb nail description:
"Lazarus Long, member of a select group bred for generations to live far
beyond normal human lifespans, helps his kind escape persecution after
word leaks out and angry crowds accuse them of withholding the “secret”
of longevity. Lazarus and his companions set out on an interstellar
journey and face many trials and strange cultures, like a futuristic
Odysseus and his crew, before returning to Earth. This classic novel,
set in Robert A. Heinlein’s Future History universe, introduces the
author’s most beloved and widely quoted character (see THE NOTEBOOKS OF
LAZARUS LONG).
And here, you can listen to it read to you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHTlrgFC8MM
Methuselah's Children - Robert A. Heinlein
6 hours 13 minutes.
Written in 1941, expanded in 1958, a pretty decent story,
and gave me a couple thoughts I found worth a lot of
contemplation (I'll probably do it in a followup.).
Goodreads gives it a fair rating, good at 3.99.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/175319.Methuselah_s_Children
It gives a pretty fair thumbnail/set-up
"the United States of America at last fulfills the promise inherent
in its first Revolution: for the first time in human history there
is a nation with Liberty and Justice for All.
No one may seize or harm the person or property of another, or
invade his privacy, or force him to do his bidding. Americans
are fiercely proud of their re-won liberties and the blood it
cost them: nothing could make them forswear those truths they
hold self-evident. Nothing except the promise of immortality."
Lyn (frequent reviewer) states it well:
"Scaled down, lean and aggressive, bereft of the heavy,
introspective reticence that weighed down Time Enough for Love,
this is simply a good SF adventure with Heinlein's signature
technical attention to detail.
The origin of Lazarus Long and the adventure referenced in Time
Enough For Love, including Andy Libby and the beginning of
interstellar exploration.
A must read for Heinlein fans."
I also appreciated when Jim said, "Unlike his later books,
this one is a short, fun read. The basic premise is an
oppressed minority fleeing before the public & government
can get their greedy hands on them."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methuselah%27s_Children
"Methuselah's Children is a science fiction novel by American
writer Robert A. Heinlein, originally serialized in Astounding
Science Fiction in the July, August, and September 1941 issues.
It was expanded into a full-length novel in 1958.
The novel is usually considered to be part of Heinlein's Future
History series of stories. It introduces the Howard Families, a
fictional group of people who achieved long lifespans through
selective breeding. The space ship in this novel, the New Frontiers,
is described in the Future History timeline as a second generation
ship, following the Vanguard, the vehicle for Heinlein's paired
novellas "Universe" and "Common Sense". ----
Plot summary
--- Ira Howard became rich --- but died of old age at 48 or 49
years old. The trustees of his will carried out his wishes to
prolong human life, by financially encouraging those with long-
lived grandparents to marry each other and have children. By the
22nd century the "Howard families" have a life expectancy exceeding
150 years and keep their existence secret with the "Masquerade"--,
also, interesting to see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masquerade_(trope)
This site,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006MITAWI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
show you can get it delivered to your door reasonably.
And it also has a pretty good thumb nail description:
"Lazarus Long, member of a select group bred for generations to live far
beyond normal human lifespans, helps his kind escape persecution after
word leaks out and angry crowds accuse them of withholding the “secret”
of longevity. Lazarus and his companions set out on an interstellar
journey and face many trials and strange cultures, like a futuristic
Odysseus and his crew, before returning to Earth. This classic novel,
set in Robert A. Heinlein’s Future History universe, introduces the
author’s most beloved and widely quoted character (see THE NOTEBOOKS OF
LAZARUS LONG).
And here, you can listen to it read to you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHTlrgFC8MM
Methuselah's Children - Robert A. Heinlein
6 hours 13 minutes.
a425couple
Mar 25, 2018, 1:25:23 PM3/25/18
to
On 3/24/2018 9:59 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> _Methuselah's Children_ was one of the stories written toward the end of what I consider RAH's best period, before his growing fame and popularity enabled him to indulge his personal tropes to the detriment of his work.
>
> Realistically, the breeding project as portrayed _would_ work...up to a point. They breed long-lifers with long-lifers, which would have the effect of selecting out some genetic problems, tendencies toward degenerative diseases, weak immune systems, etc. Keep up the project for a few generations and I have no doubt you'd end up with a population of people who might routinely live into their 80s and 90s in decent health. You might _eventually_ get a group of routine centenarians that way.
I'll agree.
> But it would level off after a while. Plus, of course, the near-insurmountable difficulties of keeping the program going, and secret, generation after generation.
Ahh, if they advance only to regularly 80s & 90s & rarely 100,
why would they feel any need to keep it secret? That is not
that significant an advance over 'normal'.
> RAH is also willing to show (though briefly) the genetic cost of the Howard Families' inbreeding: they have a very high percentage of genetic abnormalities, birth defects, mental and physical retardation, all the usual nasty side-effects of extensive close inbreeding.
Was more than one 'retardation' mentioned?
With a population of over 100,000 I would not think
'close inbreeding' would be necessary.
> This story also gives us Lazarus Long at his most interesting. The character in MC is not the same man as the Lazarus of _Time Enough For Love_, though there are similarities. The LL of MC is far more interesting, far less of a self-indulgent solipsist.
? Difference between 213 years old and many thousands (?) ?
>
> Realistically, the breeding project as portrayed _would_ work...up to a point. They breed long-lifers with long-lifers, which would have the effect of selecting out some genetic problems, tendencies toward degenerative diseases, weak immune systems, etc. Keep up the project for a few generations and I have no doubt you'd end up with a population of people who might routinely live into their 80s and 90s in decent health. You might _eventually_ get a group of routine centenarians that way.
I'll agree.
> But it would level off after a while. Plus, of course, the near-insurmountable difficulties of keeping the program going, and secret, generation after generation.
Ahh, if they advance only to regularly 80s & 90s & rarely 100,
why would they feel any need to keep it secret? That is not
that significant an advance over 'normal'.
> RAH is also willing to show (though briefly) the genetic cost of the Howard Families' inbreeding: they have a very high percentage of genetic abnormalities, birth defects, mental and physical retardation, all the usual nasty side-effects of extensive close inbreeding.
Was more than one 'retardation' mentioned?
With a population of over 100,000 I would not think
'close inbreeding' would be necessary.
> This story also gives us Lazarus Long at his most interesting. The character in MC is not the same man as the Lazarus of _Time Enough For Love_, though there are similarities. The LL of MC is far more interesting, far less of a self-indulgent solipsist.
? Difference between 213 years old and many thousands (?) ?
Dorothy J Heydt
Mar 25, 2018, 1:45:13 PM3/25/18
to
In article <p98m...@news1.newsguy.com>,
True. I don't think there were *that* many Howards, so they
would turn 100 one at a time, and be interviewed by their *local*
news-organ, and attribute their long lives to healthy living.
>> RAH is also willing to show (though briefly) the genetic cost of the
>Howard Families' inbreeding: they have a very high percentage of
>genetic abnormalities, birth defects, mental and physical retardation,
>all the usual nasty side-effects of extensive close inbreeding.
>
>Was more than one 'retardation' mentioned?
>With a population of over 100,000 I would not think
>'close inbreeding' would be necessary.
>
say "I've quit counting"?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
would turn 100 one at a time, and be interviewed by their *local*
news-organ, and attribute their long lives to healthy living.
>> RAH is also willing to show (though briefly) the genetic cost of the
>Howard Families' inbreeding: they have a very high percentage of
>genetic abnormalities, birth defects, mental and physical retardation,
>all the usual nasty side-effects of extensive close inbreeding.
>
>Was more than one 'retardation' mentioned?
>With a population of over 100,000 I would not think
>'close inbreeding' would be necessary.
>
>? Difference between 213 years old and many thousands (?) ?
Does Lazarus at any time say just how old he is? Or does he just
say "I've quit counting"?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Mar 25, 2018, 1:55:26 PM3/25/18
to
In article <p65q2...@kithrup.com>,
Well, we know he was a toddler at the start of WWI, does TEFL give a date
for the framing story?
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
for the framing story?
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
a425couple
Mar 25, 2018, 3:01:20 PM3/25/18
to
he claims to be 213 years.
(Without rechecking for citation, but I took a note
that I figured somehow, his d.o.b. was in 1912.)
In TEFL IIRC is not he in thousands? (?!)
a425couple
Mar 25, 2018, 3:11:36 PM3/25/18
to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
"The book covers several periods from the life of Lazarus Long
(birth name: Woodrow Wilson Smith), the oldest living human,
now more than two thousand years old."
Dorothy J Heydt
Mar 25, 2018, 5:15:03 PM3/25/18
to
In article <p98rl...@news1.newsguy.com>,
Dunno, I quit that one midway and would like to say I've
forgotten it completely, which I haven't quite.
forgotten it completely, which I haven't quite.
a425couple
Mar 25, 2018, 11:36:43 PM3/25/18
to
>>> Does Lazarus at any time say just how old he is? Or does he just
>>> say "I've quit counting"?
>>
>> As I see it, in "Methuselah's Children" on page 13,
>> he claims to be 213 years.
>> (Without rechecking for citation, but I took a note
>> that I figured somehow, his d.o.b. was in 1912.)
>>
>
> Dunno, I quit that one midway and would like to say I've
> forgotten it completely, which I haven't quite.
I know what you mean.
> Dunno, I quit that one midway and would like to say I've
> forgotten it completely, which I haven't quite.
I got bogged down and stopped about 1/2 way.
A year or two ago, I picked it up and restarted and pounded
to about 3/4. Stopped again.
As Goodreads frequent reviewer Lyn says,
"The best thing about Heinlein is that he is a good writer, a
great writer of science fiction.
And that is demonstrated both in the positive and negative in TEFL.
When he is telling a story, it is very good, but in the “in between
sections” it drags poorly. The best section is the story about Lazarus
and his marriage to short lived Dora and their pioneer life. ----
Ultimately, it’s just too long, Heinlein is too ambitious and throws
too much in and it collapses under it’s own weight."
Another said, "Time Enough mostly feels disjointed and long-winded."
Mike Van Pelt
Mar 26, 2018, 5:33:06 PM3/26/18
to
In article <p99pr...@news2.newsguy.com>,
Adopted Daughter" is one of the very best things Heinlein ever
wrote. That section is pretty much stand-alone. If you didn't
get that far, Dorothy, I'd recommend reading just that chapter.
The rest of it... Yeah. Pretty uneven. Some of it was really
good, some of it pretty tedious, and some of Heinlein's later
... indulgences ... are pretty heavily foreshadowed.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
a425couple <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>As Goodreads frequent reviewer Lyn says,
>"The best thing about Heinlein is that he is a good writer, a
>great writer of science fiction.
>And that is demonstrated both in the positive and negative in TEFL.
>When he is telling a story, it is very good, but in the "in between
>sections" it drags poorly. The best section is the story about Lazarus
>and his marriage to short lived Dora and their pioneer life. ----
I've read TEFL two or three times. Yeah... "The Tale of the
>As Goodreads frequent reviewer Lyn says,
>"The best thing about Heinlein is that he is a good writer, a
>great writer of science fiction.
>And that is demonstrated both in the positive and negative in TEFL.
>When he is telling a story, it is very good, but in the "in between
>sections" it drags poorly. The best section is the story about Lazarus
>and his marriage to short lived Dora and their pioneer life. ----
Adopted Daughter" is one of the very best things Heinlein ever
wrote. That section is pretty much stand-alone. If you didn't
get that far, Dorothy, I'd recommend reading just that chapter.
The rest of it... Yeah. Pretty uneven. Some of it was really
good, some of it pretty tedious, and some of Heinlein's later
... indulgences ... are pretty heavily foreshadowed.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Chris Zakes
Mar 29, 2018, 11:01:12 AM3/29/18
to
Lazarus Long stories--where someone (Ishtar?) remarks that his long
life is more than just Howard breeding--that he's some kind of
mutation.
>>>> But it would level off after a while. Plus, of course, the
>>> near-insurmountable difficulties of keeping the program going, and
>>> secret, generation after generation.
>>>
>>> Ahh, if they advance only to regularly 80s & 90s & rarely 100,
>>> why would they feel any need to keep it secret? That is not
>>> that significant an advance over 'normal'.
>>
>> True. I don't think there were *that* many Howards, so they
>> would turn 100 one at a time, and be interviewed by their *local*
>> news-organ, and attribute their long lives to healthy living.
>>
>>>> RAH is also willing to show (though briefly) the genetic cost of the
>>> Howard Families' inbreeding: they have a very high percentage of
>>> genetic abnormalities, birth defects, mental and physical retardation,
>>> all the usual nasty side-effects of extensive close inbreeding.
>>>
>>> Was more than one 'retardation' mentioned?
>>> With a population of over 100,000 I would not think
>>> 'close inbreeding' would be necessary.
>>>
>>> ? Difference between 213 years old and many thousands (?) ?
>>
>> Does Lazarus at any time say just how old he is? Or does he just
>> say "I've quit counting"?
>
>As I see it, in "Methuselah's Children" on page 13,
>he claims to be 213 years.
>(Without rechecking for citation, but I took a note
>that I figured somehow, his d.o.b. was in 1912.)
was born just after Woodrow Wilson was elected president, hence the
name.
>In TEFL IIRC is not he in thousands? (?!)
gets a little harder to determine what the calendar date is back on
Earth.
-Chris Zakes
Texas
--
GNU Terry Pratchett
Mind how you go.
David DeLaney
Apr 2, 2018, 6:01:30 AM4/2/18
to
On 2018-03-29, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a bit--I think it's in TEFL, possibly one of the other later
> Lazarus Long stories--where someone (Ishtar?) remarks that his long
> life is more than just Howard breeding--that he's some kind of mutation.
... and here I'm flashing back to Camber Tremodian, in fast time, manipulating
> There's a bit--I think it's in TEFL, possibly one of the other later
> Lazarus Long stories--where someone (Ishtar?) remarks that his long
> life is more than just Howard breeding--that he's some kind of mutation.
the genes that will become Trent Castanaveras - and causing one of the very
few fatalities of the Time Wars in the process.
Dave, can you tell I'm fond of way too many books?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Cybe R. Wizard
Feb 8, 2019, 9:39:51 PM2/8/19
to
On Mon, 02 Apr 2018 05:01:24 -0500
David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 2018-03-29, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There's a bit--I think it's in TEFL, possibly one of the other later
> > Lazarus Long stories--where someone (Ishtar?) remarks that his long
> > life is more than just Howard breeding--that he's some kind of
> > mutation.
>
> ... and here I'm flashing back to Camber Tremodian, in fast time,
> manipulating the genes that will become Trent Castanaveras - and
> causing one of the very few fatalities of the Time Wars in the
> process.
>
> Dave, can you tell I'm fond of way too many books?
I've been perusing what my limited free provider, um, provides as far
David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On 2018-03-29, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There's a bit--I think it's in TEFL, possibly one of the other later
> > Lazarus Long stories--where someone (Ishtar?) remarks that his long
> > life is more than just Howard breeding--that he's some kind of
> > mutation.
>
> ... and here I'm flashing back to Camber Tremodian, in fast time,
> manipulating the genes that will become Trent Castanaveras - and
> causing one of the very few fatalities of the Time Wars in the
> process.
>
> Dave, can you tell I'm fond of way too many books?
as group history here and this is the first I've seen of discussion of
Moran's books. As a life-long Heinlein fan, I found them in many ways
similarly thought out and captivating in a more modern way.
I want a radio packet inskin!
Anyone else like Dan's work? Do I need to do more reading? Is anyone
really listening?
--
Cybe R. Wizard
My other computer is a HOLMES IV with the Mycroft OS
a425couple
Feb 8, 2019, 11:01:02 PM2/8/19
to
It's just what you are talking about is beyond my knowledge .
Well, as I see it, there are hints.
Lets try putting into Google
--- Moran, science fiction author.
We get,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Keys_Moran
Hmm, lot'sa books and stories.
And you think they are sort of like Heinlein's?
Dorothy J Heydt
Feb 8, 2019, 11:50:00 PM2/8/19
to
In article <20190208203946.14a55ae1@WizardsTower>,
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Cybe R. Wizard <cybe_r...@WizardsTower.invalid> wrote:
>
>My other computer is a HOLMES IV with the Mycroft OS
>
I have a sticker on my PC, reading "My other computer cost $35."
>
>My other computer is a HOLMES IV with the Mycroft OS
>
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Cybe R. Wizard
Feb 9, 2019, 6:58:24 AM2/9/19
to
>
> Well, as I see it, there are hints.
> Lets try putting into Google
> --- Moran, science fiction author.
> We get,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Keys_Moran
> Hmm, lot'sa books and stories.
Well searched!
> Well, as I see it, there are hints.
> Lets try putting into Google
> --- Moran, science fiction author.
> We get,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Keys_Moran
> Hmm, lot'sa books and stories.
> And you think they are sort of like Heinlein's?
>
authors' books are rectangular and leafy. ;-]
I like this quote from the wikipedia page:
----------
"Daniel Keys Moran’s Continuing Time stories cover an abnormally large
number of standard SF/F themes and story devices. There are multiple
universes, time travel, cyberpunk, alien invasions, martial arts,
dance, paganism, the politics of world government, an interesting twist on non-violent protest, and any number of everyday technologies that were unheard of in 1985 but are surprisingly common today. "
----------
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