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[OT] When did we learn what we know about the moon?
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Rhino
May 16, 2015, 6:00:39 PM5/16/15
to
I'm currently reading H.G. Wells The First Men in the Moon for the very
first time. It was published in 1904 or thereabouts. It's got me
wondering when we learned various basic facts about the moon.
For instance, the narrator correctly states that the length of a day on
the moon is 28 days; two weeks of daylight, followed by two weeks of
night. He correctly states that the moon's gravity is 1/6th that of
earth. Yet the first time the narrator asks Cavor if there is air on
the moon, he doesn't know.
When did science learn that the moon had no atmosphere of any kind? When
did we learn that the moon's gravity was 1/6th that of earth? When did
we learn the length of the lunar day?
I can look up facts about the moon or other planets or stars easily
enough but I'm at a real loss to figure out *when* we learned the things
we know about them. Wikipedia identifies when the "newer" planets were
first discovered but it doesn't indicate when the lesser facts like
gravity, surface temperature or whatever were determined. Does anyone
know of resources, especially ONLINE resources, that give the dates that
these facts were discovered?
I was going to ask this on the H.G. Wells newsgroup but it is virtually
dead; there are few posts and the newest ones are months old. I was
going to ask this on a science newsgroup but it contains only posts
about couples (and threesomes) hooking up. I thought I'd try here to see
if any of the clever folks here have any ideas.
--
Rhino
first time. It was published in 1904 or thereabouts. It's got me
wondering when we learned various basic facts about the moon.
For instance, the narrator correctly states that the length of a day on
the moon is 28 days; two weeks of daylight, followed by two weeks of
night. He correctly states that the moon's gravity is 1/6th that of
earth. Yet the first time the narrator asks Cavor if there is air on
the moon, he doesn't know.
When did science learn that the moon had no atmosphere of any kind? When
did we learn that the moon's gravity was 1/6th that of earth? When did
we learn the length of the lunar day?
I can look up facts about the moon or other planets or stars easily
enough but I'm at a real loss to figure out *when* we learned the things
we know about them. Wikipedia identifies when the "newer" planets were
first discovered but it doesn't indicate when the lesser facts like
gravity, surface temperature or whatever were determined. Does anyone
know of resources, especially ONLINE resources, that give the dates that
these facts were discovered?
I was going to ask this on the H.G. Wells newsgroup but it is virtually
dead; there are few posts and the newest ones are months old. I was
going to ask this on a science newsgroup but it contains only posts
about couples (and threesomes) hooking up. I thought I'd try here to see
if any of the clever folks here have any ideas.
--
Rhino
Michael Black
May 17, 2015, 12:44:34 AM5/17/15
to
Isn't there a whole branch of history devoted to science? I thought I'd
come across the title "science historian" somewhere.
Maybe if you put a note in the "talk" page about the moon, in essence
restating your question more briefly, it might shake something out there.
I don't think most people care, but it is a bit more information. I'm
sure the wikipedia entry for Mars says something about whoever found the
"canals" and then reality coming along. I was just looking at the "War of
the WOrlds" entry, and it says something about the "canals" being
misinterpreted.
People may have just assumed there was air on the moon, not giving it much
thought. So the fact that there is no air may not have been some 'great
discovery" but just reality setting in. It's been a long time since I
read Jules Verne's "From Earth to the Moon", but I don't remember
spacesuits, so maybe it was an assumption that there was air, or maybe the
fiction just needed there to be air.
I put "The moon doesn't have air" into google, and discovered there is a
wikipedia page about "atmosphere of the moon", and apparently it does have
an atmosphere, just different from what was expected.
But there's a reference about "The Lunar atmosphere: History, status,
current problems, and context" which might be useful. I tried the link,
landed on a general page, which might be related to my browser, so I won't
pursue it further. But that sounds like a good source.
Michael
Rhino
May 17, 2015, 1:14:15 PM5/17/15
to
science" but I'm not even sure what this discipline is commonly called
so that I can search it.
> Maybe if you put a note in the "talk" page about the moon, in essence
> restating your question more briefly, it might shake something out
> there. I don't think most people care, but it is a bit more
> information. I'm sure the wikipedia entry for Mars says something about
> whoever found the "canals" and then reality coming along. I was just
> looking at the "War of the WOrlds" entry, and it says something about
> the "canals" being misinterpreted.
>
that as an example of the broader challenge of finding out when various
facts about something came out. A note on the Wikipedia talk page might
reveal the specifics about when the various facts about the moon's
atmosphere were learned but probably wouldn't tell me when anything else
was learned :-)
> People may have just assumed there was air on the moon, not giving it
> much thought.
been looking at the moon as long as there have been people and
inevitably wondered about it but it's only within living memory that
we've been able to think about going to the moon, at which point the
atmosphere was no longer just a curiosity. Ancient poets knew they
weren't going to the moon so the question of the atmosphere on the moon
was purely academic. The Apollo program, on the other hand, knew they
were going to the moon so they HAD to base their ship and spacesuit
designs on the best available information on what they'd find on the moon.
I'm sure the various satellites that hard- and soft-landed on the moon
in the early 1960s gathered much of the key information that NASA (and
the Soviet space program) used. But how much had all ready been
determined by telescopes and how much was known in Wells' day? I'm
wondering if the moon's airlessness was already known and Wells decided
to ignore that for plot reasons or if it really did seem at least
possible that the moon had air at that point.
> So the fact that there is no air may not have been some
> 'great discovery" but just reality setting in. It's been a long time
> since I read Jules Verne's "From Earth to the Moon", but I don't
> remember spacesuits, so maybe it was an assumption that there was air,
> or maybe the fiction just needed there to be air.
>
> I put "The moon doesn't have air" into google, and discovered there is a
> wikipedia page about "atmosphere of the moon", and apparently it does
> have an atmosphere, just different from what was expected.
>
> But there's a reference about "The Lunar atmosphere: History, status,
> current problems, and context" which might be useful. I tried the
> link, landed on a general page, which might be related to my browser, so
> I won't pursue it further. But that sounds like a good source.
>
enhanced PDF. Half an hour later, it was STILL loading, at which point I
gave up.
>
--
Rhino
Chris Zakes
May 18, 2015, 8:34:26 AM5/18/15
to
figure-8 orbit around it and go back to Earth. Although, I think there
was a bit where they opened a window briefly, but didn't suffer
explosive decompression.
In Wells' story, the lunar atmosphere freezes at night and thaws out
during the day. (One would *think* that such a phenomenon would be
noticeable, even with turn-of-the-last-century telescopes.)
And yes, History of Science is an academic discipline; I took a class
in it in the mid-1970s, but that particular question never came up.
-Chris Zakes
Texas
--
GNU Terry Pratchett
Yisroel Markov
May 18, 2015, 9:28:12 AM5/18/15
to
On Mon, 18 May 2015 07:34:24 -0500, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com>
said:
The following is a brief excerpt from Verne's "From Earth to the
Moon", chapter 5:
---------------------------------
From the time of Thales of Miletus, in the fifth century b.c., down to
that of Copernicus in the fifteenth and Tycho Brahé in the sixteenth
century a.d., observations have been from time to time carried on with
more or less correctness, until in the present day the altitudes of
the lunar mountains have been determined with exactitude. Galileo
explained the phenomena of the lunar light produced during certain of
her phases by the existence of mountains, to which he assigned a mean
altitude of 27,000 feet. After him Hévelius, an astronomer of Dantzic,
reduced the highest elevations to 15,000 feet; but the calculations of
Riccioli brought them up again to 21,000 feet.
At the close of the eighteenth century Herschell, armed with a
powerful telescope, considerably reduced the preceding measurements.
He assigned a height of 11,400 feet to the maximum elevations, and
reduced the mean of the different altitudes to little more than 2400
feet. But Herschell's calculations were in their turn corrected by the
observations of Halley, Nasmyth, Bianchini, Gruithuysen, and others;
but it was reserved for the labours of Bśer and Mćdler finally to
solve the question. They succeeded in measuring 1905 different
elevations, of which six exceed 15,000 feet, and twenty-two exceed
14,400 feet. The highest summit of all towers to a height of 22,606
feet above the surface of the lunar disc. At the same period the
examination of the moon was completed. She appeared completely riddled
with craters, and her essentially volcanic character was apparent at
each observation. By the absence of refraction in the rays of the
planets occulted by her we conclude that she is absolutely devoid of
an atmosphere. The absence of air entails the absence of water. It
became, therefore, manifest that the Selenites, to support life under
such conditions, must possess a special organization of their own,
must differ remarkably from the inhabitants of the earth.
---------------------------------
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/44278
>Verne's story didn't have the crew land on the moon, just do a
>figure-8 orbit around it and go back to Earth. Although, I think there
>was a bit where they opened a window briefly, but didn't suffer
>explosive decompression.
Indeed. Chapter XIV:
---------------------------------
Through the scuttle rapidly opened, Nicholl threw out the instrument
which was held by a short cord, so that it might be more easily drawn
up. The scuttle had not been opened more than a second, but that
second had sufficed to let in a most intense cold.
"The devil!" exclaimed Michel Ardan, "it is cold enough to freeze a
white bear."
Barbicane waited until half an hour had elapsed, which was more than
time enough to allow the instrument to fall to the level of the
surrounding temperature. Then it was rapidly pulled in. Barbicane
calculated the quantity of spirits of wine overflowed into the little
phial soldered to the lower part of the instrument, and said,—
"A hundred and forty degrees centigrade* below zero!" (-218° Fahr.
(Ed.))
M. Pouillet was right and Fourier wrong. That was the undoubted
temperature of the starry space. Such is, perhaps, that of the lunar
continents, when the orb of night has lost by radiation all the heat
which fifteen days of sun have poured into her.
---------------------------------
>In Wells' story, the lunar atmosphere freezes at night and thaws out
>during the day. (One would *think* that such a phenomenon would be
>noticeable, even with turn-of-the-last-century telescopes.)
>
>And yes, History of Science is an academic discipline; I took a class
>in it in the mid-1970s, but that particular question never came up.
Perhaps this will help:
https://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Individual+Scientists
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
said:
Moon", chapter 5:
---------------------------------
From the time of Thales of Miletus, in the fifth century b.c., down to
that of Copernicus in the fifteenth and Tycho Brahé in the sixteenth
century a.d., observations have been from time to time carried on with
more or less correctness, until in the present day the altitudes of
the lunar mountains have been determined with exactitude. Galileo
explained the phenomena of the lunar light produced during certain of
her phases by the existence of mountains, to which he assigned a mean
altitude of 27,000 feet. After him Hévelius, an astronomer of Dantzic,
reduced the highest elevations to 15,000 feet; but the calculations of
Riccioli brought them up again to 21,000 feet.
At the close of the eighteenth century Herschell, armed with a
powerful telescope, considerably reduced the preceding measurements.
He assigned a height of 11,400 feet to the maximum elevations, and
reduced the mean of the different altitudes to little more than 2400
feet. But Herschell's calculations were in their turn corrected by the
observations of Halley, Nasmyth, Bianchini, Gruithuysen, and others;
but it was reserved for the labours of Bśer and Mćdler finally to
solve the question. They succeeded in measuring 1905 different
elevations, of which six exceed 15,000 feet, and twenty-two exceed
14,400 feet. The highest summit of all towers to a height of 22,606
feet above the surface of the lunar disc. At the same period the
examination of the moon was completed. She appeared completely riddled
with craters, and her essentially volcanic character was apparent at
each observation. By the absence of refraction in the rays of the
planets occulted by her we conclude that she is absolutely devoid of
an atmosphere. The absence of air entails the absence of water. It
became, therefore, manifest that the Selenites, to support life under
such conditions, must possess a special organization of their own,
must differ remarkably from the inhabitants of the earth.
---------------------------------
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/44278
>Verne's story didn't have the crew land on the moon, just do a
>figure-8 orbit around it and go back to Earth. Although, I think there
>was a bit where they opened a window briefly, but didn't suffer
>explosive decompression.
---------------------------------
Through the scuttle rapidly opened, Nicholl threw out the instrument
which was held by a short cord, so that it might be more easily drawn
up. The scuttle had not been opened more than a second, but that
second had sufficed to let in a most intense cold.
"The devil!" exclaimed Michel Ardan, "it is cold enough to freeze a
white bear."
Barbicane waited until half an hour had elapsed, which was more than
time enough to allow the instrument to fall to the level of the
surrounding temperature. Then it was rapidly pulled in. Barbicane
calculated the quantity of spirits of wine overflowed into the little
phial soldered to the lower part of the instrument, and said,—
"A hundred and forty degrees centigrade* below zero!" (-218° Fahr.
(Ed.))
M. Pouillet was right and Fourier wrong. That was the undoubted
temperature of the starry space. Such is, perhaps, that of the lunar
continents, when the orb of night has lost by radiation all the heat
which fifteen days of sun have poured into her.
---------------------------------
>In Wells' story, the lunar atmosphere freezes at night and thaws out
>during the day. (One would *think* that such a phenomenon would be
>noticeable, even with turn-of-the-last-century telescopes.)
>
>And yes, History of Science is an academic discipline; I took a class
>in it in the mid-1970s, but that particular question never came up.
https://the-moon.wikispaces.com/Individual+Scientists
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
MajorOz
May 18, 2015, 2:15:46 PM5/18/15
to
On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 7:34:26 AM UTC-5, Chris Zakes wrote:
> History of Science is an academic discipline; I took a class
> in it in the mid-1970s....
> History of Science is an academic discipline; I took a class
Having James Burke's two series on VHS tape and his (autographed) book, I feel as if I have taken at least one class.
I used to show them to my classes in my STEM teaching days.
For those of us who have forgotten, here is a summary of each of the episodes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections (TV series)
Rhino
May 20, 2015, 10:50:15 PM5/20/15
to
Connections III. They were wonderful and represent most of what I know
about the history of science and technology. I don't remember any
segments on the moon though and I don't remember him ever suggesting
resources to find out when various things were discovered, such as the
presence or absence of an atmosphere on the moon. Yisroel's reply more
or less answered that specific question though: apparently the absence
of a lunar atmosphere seemed to be known when Verne wrote his book about
the trip to the moon, which was a few decades before Wells wrote his.
It would appear that Wells *did* know there was no atmosphere on the
moon and, for whatever reason, chose to have *his* moon have an
atmosphere.
Thanks for reminding me about Connections :-)
--
Rhino
Rhino
May 20, 2015, 11:01:00 PM5/20/15
to
question of whether the lack of atmosphere on the moon was known in
Wells time, which was what got this thread started. You've also helped
me identify many lunar experts who were not familiar to me.
Your efforts are greatly appreciated!
--
Rhino
Rhino
May 20, 2015, 11:03:42 PM5/20/15
to
thought they'd actually landed on the moon. Then again, if I recall
correctly, the title was "A Journey to the Moon and a Trip Around It",
which implies that they only orbited without landing. I must track that
book down and read it again....
> In Wells' story, the lunar atmosphere freezes at night and thaws out
> during the day. (One would *think* that such a phenomenon would be
> noticeable, even with turn-of-the-last-century telescopes.)
>
> And yes, History of Science is an academic discipline; I took a class
> in it in the mid-1970s, but that particular question never came up.
>
Science....
--
Rhino
MajorOz
May 21, 2015, 1:06:37 AM5/21/15
to
Seems to be it kinda ... uh ... developed, a la "who invented the wheelbarrow".
Mike Dworetsky
May 21, 2015, 4:00:45 AM5/21/15
to
Rhino wrote:
> I'm currently reading H.G. Wells The First Men in the Moon for the
> very first time. It was published in 1904 or thereabouts. It's got me
> wondering when we learned various basic facts about the moon.
>
> For instance, the narrator correctly states that the length of a day
> on the moon is 28 days; two weeks of daylight, followed by two weeks
> of night. He correctly states that the moon's gravity is 1/6th that of
> earth. Yet the first time the narrator asks Cavor if there is air on
> the moon, he doesn't know.
The actual length of a "day" on the Moon is 29.53 days, the same as a
> I'm currently reading H.G. Wells The First Men in the Moon for the
> very first time. It was published in 1904 or thereabouts. It's got me
> wondering when we learned various basic facts about the moon.
>
> For instance, the narrator correctly states that the length of a day
> on the moon is 28 days; two weeks of daylight, followed by two weeks
> of night. He correctly states that the moon's gravity is 1/6th that of
> earth. Yet the first time the narrator asks Cavor if there is air on
> the moon, he doesn't know.
synodic month (New Moon to New Moon, on average). The sidereal rotation
period of the Moon (as timed by the rising and setting of stars) is close to
28 days. These would be figures known since antiquity.
The gravity being 1/6 that of the Earth requires knowledge of the actual
size of the Moon (known since the time of Isaac Newton) and its mass, which
took a while to determine from the details of the orbital motion of Earth
and Moon (from the ratio of masses). I don't know who did these
measurements and calculations for the first time, but it would have been
possible in the late 17th century (1680s to 1690s) or early 18th century.
That the Moon had no atmosphere was established from telescopic observations
of occultations of stars, probably in the early 18th century. This set an
upper limit to the density of lunar air.
>
> When did science learn that the moon had no atmosphere of any kind?
> When did we learn that the moon's gravity was 1/6th that of earth?
> When did we learn the length of the lunar day?
>
> I can look up facts about the moon or other planets or stars easily
> enough but I'm at a real loss to figure out *when* we learned the
> things we know about them. Wikipedia identifies when the "newer"
> planets were first discovered but it doesn't indicate when the lesser
> facts like gravity, surface temperature or whatever were determined. Does
> anyone know of resources, especially ONLINE resources, that give
> the dates that these facts were discovered?
>
> I was going to ask this on the H.G. Wells newsgroup but it is
> virtually dead; there are few posts and the newest ones are months
> old. I was going to ask this on a science newsgroup but it contains
> only posts about couples (and threesomes) hooking up. I thought I'd
> try here to see if any of the clever folks here have any ideas.
--
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
Michael Black
May 21, 2015, 2:39:01 PM5/21/15
to
On Wed, 20 May 2015, Rhino wrote:
>> Verne's story didn't have the crew land on the moon, just do a
>> figure-8 orbit around it and go back to Earth. Although, I think there
>> was a bit where they opened a window briefly, but didn't suffer
>> explosive decompression.
>>
> Really? I read that story as a kid, which is a LONG time ago now, but I
> thought they'd actually landed on the moon. Then again, if I recall
> correctly, the title was "A Journey to the Moon and a Trip Around It", which
> implies that they only orbited without landing. I must track that book down
> and read it again....
>
I read it pretty early, and have never reread it, so I don't know.
>> Verne's story didn't have the crew land on the moon, just do a
>> figure-8 orbit around it and go back to Earth. Although, I think there
>> was a bit where they opened a window briefly, but didn't suffer
>> explosive decompression.
>>
> Really? I read that story as a kid, which is a LONG time ago now, but I
> thought they'd actually landed on the moon. Then again, if I recall
> correctly, the title was "A Journey to the Moon and a Trip Around It", which
> implies that they only orbited without landing. I must track that book down
> and read it again....
>
Appsrently it ends abruptly, and the sequel "Around the Moon" covers the
rest of the trip.
Michael
Chris Zakes
May 21, 2015, 9:51:48 PM5/21/15
to
On Wed, 20 May 2015 23:03:41 -0400, an orbital mind-control laser
caused Rhino <no_offline_c...@example.com> to write:
>On 2015-05-18 8:34 AM, Chris Zakes wrote:
(snip)
caused Rhino <no_offline_c...@example.com> to write:
>On 2015-05-18 8:34 AM, Chris Zakes wrote:
>> Verne's story didn't have the crew land on the moon, just do a
>> figure-8 orbit around it and go back to Earth. Although, I think there
>> was a bit where they opened a window briefly, but didn't suffer
>> explosive decompression.
>>
>Really? I read that story as a kid, which is a LONG time ago now, but I
>thought they'd actually landed on the moon. Then again, if I recall
>correctly, the title was "A Journey to the Moon and a Trip Around It",
>which implies that they only orbited without landing. I must track that
>book down and read it again....
got my copy. (After, like you, reading it many years ago--probably
checked out from the local library.)
http://www.gutenberg.org/
a425couple
May 22, 2015, 1:57:48 PM5/22/15
to
"Rhino" <no_offline_c...@example.com> wrote in message...
> I'm currently reading H.G. Wells The First Men in the Moon ----
or, When did we first learn ---,
is a subject that has often interested me.
Many think I'm odd (and I am), but I have kept a couple
sets of old encyclopedias.
My 1946 "World Book Encyclopedia" on Mars,
Says about Mars = lots of belief in life being there:
"Is Mars Inhabited? It is
the belief of most modern astronomers that inteligent life
as we know it does not exist on Mars, but that the
planet supports vegtable life. --- debated exhaustively --
blue-green tracts -- wax and wane seasonally -- "
Hmmm, on Venus = pretty much skips the "life" topic.
> I'm currently reading H.G. Wells The First Men in the Moon ----
> I can look up facts about the moon or other planets or stars easily
> enough but I'm at a real loss to figure out *when* we learned the things
> we know about them.
When did mankind think back then?
> enough but I'm at a real loss to figure out *when* we learned the things
> we know about them.
or, When did we first learn ---,
is a subject that has often interested me.
Many think I'm odd (and I am), but I have kept a couple
sets of old encyclopedias.
My 1946 "World Book Encyclopedia" on Mars,
Says about Mars = lots of belief in life being there:
"Is Mars Inhabited? It is
the belief of most modern astronomers that inteligent life
as we know it does not exist on Mars, but that the
planet supports vegtable life. --- debated exhaustively --
blue-green tracts -- wax and wane seasonally -- "
Hmmm, on Venus = pretty much skips the "life" topic.
Chris Zakes
May 23, 2015, 6:18:13 PM5/23/15
to
up by "It has clouds"?
a425couple
May 27, 2015, 2:04:03 PM5/27/15
to
"Chris Zakes" <dont...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:63v1ma9erts0o673r...@4ax.com...
specific answers.
http://www.astrobio.net/interview/venus-inhabited-world/
The planet Venus is like Earth in many ways. It has a similar size and mass,
it is closer to us than any other planet, and it probably formed from the
same sort of materials that formed Earth. For years scientists and science
fiction writers dreamed of the exotic jungles and life forms that must
inhabit Earth's twin sister. - See more at:
http://www.astrobio.net/interview/venus-inhabited-world/#sthash.iGjTdDqT.dpuf
"
Nollaig MacKenzie
May 27, 2015, 7:05:29 PM5/27/15
to
On 2015.05.27 18:02:37,
the amazing <a425c...@hotmail.com> declared:
_Child of Venus_ - is a good tale about terraforming Venus.
--
Nollaig MacKenzie
http://www.yorku.ca/nollaig
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