The Door Into Summer by Robert Heinlein

[Don Kuenz]

This novel originally appears in serialized form in the October,
November, and December 1956 editions of _F&SF_. Each installment
possesses unique strengths. There's also a charismatic cat named Pete
who skulks and strops his way through the installments along with the
protagonist.

The story builds on the time travel themes introduced in "By His
Bootstraps" and paves the way to the advanced themes found in "All You
Zombies." Two types of time travel are used in the story.

The first installment introduces feasible time travel that uses
cryogenic suspended animation to provide one way trips into the near
future. The second installment introduces fantastical time travel that
uses a machine to take a traveler back into the near past.

Dan's an inventive engineer who enters into a partnership with a
businessman named Miles to build and sell mechanical devices and robots.
One of their first employees is a vamp named Bella. She's a manipulative
psychopath who drives a wedge between the partners so that she can
pickup the spoils after the partnership breaks up.

The first installment's triangulated story element emotionally hooks me.
It stokes my hunger for revenge until not even a tome of tripe can stop
me from reading and reaching the part of the story where the psychopath
gets some payback.

The second installment hooks me because it uses the University of
Colorado at Boulder and surrounding environs as it's setting. That area
has nostalgic value to me from my college days. It's only too easy to
imagine myself as a colleague of Dr Twitchell, the man who created the
fantastical time travel machine that can send a person a few decades
into the past. Twitch's time machine manifests an element of
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

The third installment's a "must read" simply because of the inevitable
denouement. It also takes parallel worlds off the table and puts forth
the argument that only "one true timeline" can ever exist.

Overall an enjoyable story, except for a couple of things. There's a
brief nudest colony setting that's far too groupie for me, but at the
same time seems very Heinleinesque.

The story also has an adult male who chases after a prepubescent female.
It reminds me of _The Time Traveler's Wife_ (Niffenegger) wherein only
the time travel angle keeps the squickiness at bay.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

[David Johnston]

Wasn't there a Leonard Vincent who got lost in time?

[Alrescha]

Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:


> The story also has an adult male who chases after a prepubescent female.

With all due respect, I believe you have the roles reversed. The text
makes it abundantly clear that the man has zero interest in little girls
and directly addresses the creepiness of such men (scene at the summer
camp).

--
A.

[Don Kuenz]

You're absolutely right. Vincent traveled five centuries in time. The
protagonist suspects that Vincent may be Leonardo da Vinci, provided
that Vincent found a way to travel from 15th-century Colorado to Italy.

Due to the uncertainty of Twitch's device, a prudent traveler doesn't
travel too far from the present. _The Man Who Folded Himself_ (Gerrold)
talks about some of the things that keep a traveler close to home:

There is nothing [in the future or the past] that I
cannot witness-
-but there is little to participate in.
I am limited. By my language, by my appearance, by my skin
color, and my height.
I am limited to life in a span of history maybe two
hundred years in each direction. Beyond that, the languages
are difficult: the meanings have altered, the pronunciations
and usages too complex to decipher. With effort, perhaps, I
can communicate; but the farther I go from 1975, the harder
it is to make myself understood.
And there are other differences. In the past, I am too
tall. The farther back I travel, the shorter is the human
race. In the future, I am too short - mankind's evolution is
upward.

[Don Kuenz]

_The Time Traveler's Wife_ (Audrey Niffenegger) also contains, not a
May, but rather a February September romance. Claire, the wife, first
meets Henry, the traveler, at a tender age. She lives a normal life
while he lives a discontinuous life.

Henry is one of the first people diagnosed with
Chrono-Displacement Disorder: periodically his genetic clock
resets and he finds himself misplaced in time, pulled to
moments of emotional gravity from his life, past and future.
His disappearances are spontaneous, his experiences
unpredictable, alternately harrowing and amusing.

One of the places with emotional gravity is the meadow where young
Claire plays. The Hollywood treatment, but not the novel, has a
middle-aged Claire get angry at Henry and blame everything that's wrong
with their marriage on him.

How dare you?
You tricked me.
You--
You came to that meadow...
...and you forced yourself into the heart and the mind of a little
girl.
What, you think that I wanted this life...
...this husband that disappears without any kind of warning?
Do you think anyone would want that?
Who would want that?

Almost as soon as her outburst is over Claire realizes that fate didn't
offer either of them a choice. They're stuck with the hand they were
dealt. So in the end, it's not squicky.

[David Johnston]

Bah. While the average height was smaller in the past there were men of
great stature in the past.

[Kai Jones]

Still squicky--Henry could have chosen not to talk to the little girl.
He's a naked adult! He has a duty not to impose his issues on a child,
let alone ask that child to help solve them (by getting him clothes,
food, etc.) or give her cause for emotional attachment.

It shows the novel and the movie use the "you can't change anything,
it's all determined in advance" model of life. There's no agency,
nobody's choices matter, things will happened because they're fated.
That's not a life model I want in my entertainment; I think it's
actively damaging.

--
Usenet is my home planet.

[Dan Tilque]

David Johnston wrote:
> On 5/20/2017 9:38 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:

>>
>> Due to the uncertainty of Twitch's device, a prudent traveler doesn't
>> travel too far from the present. _The Man Who Folded Himself_ (Gerrold)
>> talks about some of the things that keep a traveler close to home:
>>
>>

>> And there are other differences. In the past, I am too
>> tall. The farther back I travel, the shorter is the human
>> race. In the future, I am too short - mankind's evolution is
>> upward.
>>
>

> Bah. While the average height was smaller in the past there were men of
> great stature in the past.

Virtually all the increases in human height over the last couple
centuries have been due to epigenetic changes, not genetic. You get a
temporary Lamarckian inheritance with epigenetic changes. Epigenetic
changes can turn on or off genetic expression or change the expression
of genes to be either more or less active. Various things like
alcoholism can change the markings for the worse and these markings can
be inherited from either parent. Some marking won't be inherited, but
others may take two or more generations before they go away.

There's a large number of genes that affect one's height. Not getting
sufficient protein during growth phases will stunt one's growth and will
also make epigenetic changes. So a famine will not only stunt the growth
of children at that time, but also their children and grandchildren.

But if there are no food shortages for a while, each succeeding
generation will be taller than the one before, as these negative
epigenes get removed. We see this in countries such as Japan where
generations that grew up before WWII were short because their diet was
generally low in protein, but post-War generations have progressively
gotten taller.

For Europe, during most of its history, the upper classes got more food
than commoners (especially but not only during famines), so the upper
class were as a rule, taller. Perhaps not as tall on average as people
are today, but not that much less. A time traveller from today going
back several centuries will be pegged as nobility for several reasons
including height.

--
Dan Tilque

[Lynn McGuire]

I do not own this book nor do I recall reading it. Of course, I could
have lost it in The Great Flood of '89. I will order a used copy off
Amazon since the book is way out of print.

Lynn

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <og37qr$s2e$1...@dont-email.me>,

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 5/20/2017 8:04 AM, Don Kuenz wrote:

[review snipped, because we've all read it by now]

>
>I do not own this book nor do I recall reading it. Of course, I could
>have lost it in The Great Flood of '89. I will order a used copy off
>Amazon since the book is way out of print.

Oh, do. My take is that the first part is painful (the bad guys
doing bad things and the good guy can't stop them); the second
part interesting, though subsequent history has shoved it into
the realm of fantasy; the third part, where the good guy gets his
act together, foils the bad guys in several ways, including the
fourth dimension, and lives happily ever after. Also, the cat.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com

[Scott Lurndal]

Don't forget the roomba's (or ancestors thereof)...

[Don Kuenz]

Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/20/2017 8:04 AM, Don Kuenz wrote:
>> This novel originally appears in serialized form in the October,
>> November, and December 1956 editions of _F&SF_. Each installment
>> possesses unique strengths. There's also a charismatic cat named Pete
>> who skulks and strops his way through the installments along with the
>> protagonist.
>>
>> The story builds on the time travel themes introduced in "By His
>> Bootstraps" and paves the way to the advanced themes found in "All You
>> Zombies." Two types of time travel are used in the story.
>>

<snip>

> I do not own this book nor do I recall reading it. Of course, I could
> have lost it in The Great Flood of '89. I will order a used copy off
> Amazon since the book is way out of print.

_The Door Into Summer_ joins "By His Bootstraps" and "All You Zombies"
as my three favorite Heinlein time travel stories. These three stories
may also rank as the top time travel stories of all stories written by
all authors.

Time travel plays a secondary role in _Farnham's Freehold_ and
_Tunnel in the Sky_. Those novels rank as my least favorite time travel
stories because the time travel's only incidental. Those stories are
really about other things.

_Time Machines_ (Nahin) lists a few other Heinlein stories that are
unknown to me. Unknown stories that are worthy of my consideration,
given the precedent set by _The Door Into Summer_ et al. The other
Heinlein time travel stories are: _The Number of the Beast_,
"Life-Line," "-And He Built a Crooked House," and "Elsewhen."

[Greg Goss]

Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:


>Time travel plays a secondary role in _Farnham's Freehold_ and
>_Tunnel in the Sky_. Those novels rank as my least favorite time travel
>stories because the time travel's only incidental. Those stories are
>really about other things.

Tunnel? The guy who invented the tunnels THOUGHT he was inventing
time travel, but was wrong. His (?) mother was going into a stasis
box to await some kind of medical treatment, but I don't consider
forward travel to be time travel.

>_Time Machines_ (Nahin) lists a few other Heinlein stories that are
>unknown to me. Unknown stories that are worthy of my consideration,
>given the precedent set by _The Door Into Summer_ et al. The other
>Heinlein time travel stories are: _The Number of the Beast_,
>"Life-Line," "-And He Built a Crooked House," and "Elsewhen."

Life-Line was a measurement only. Not even a future viewer. I don't
consider it "travel". "And He Built A Crooked House" involved a
number of portals into presumably the present but far away. I don't
recall any time travel in it.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <0gfVA.88383$bl5....@fx25.iad>,

Oh, yeah, except even the Hired Girl Mk 1 could do more than the
Roomba can. "Pick up anything bigger than a pea and put it on
its top tray for the housewife to sort out. Leave the room when
anyone enters it, unless the housewife runs after it to tell the
poor thing it's welcome."

Perhaps the most it-didn't-turn-out-that-way-in-RL feature of
that book is the idea that every house would have a housewife who
would be home all day to monitor the Hired Girl. Now, of course,
the Roomba can be programmed to do its thing when nobody is
home.

Mine has died, and we've got so much stuff in the house (moved
from a three-bedroom house to a two-bedroom flat) that there isn't
much floor exposed for it to sweep. But I remember in our
previous place, I had it going up and down the hallway, and our
cat Gwenhwyfar started *stalking* it. And then it turned around
and headed toward her, and she jumped three feet in the air,
turned 180 degrees while aloft, and ran away. Expertae crede.

[David Johnston]

On 5/24/2017 8:01 AM, Greg Goss wrote:
> Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Time travel plays a secondary role in _Farnham's Freehold_ and
>> _Tunnel in the Sky_. Those novels rank as my least favorite time travel
>> stories because the time travel's only incidental. Those stories are
>> really about other things.
>
> Tunnel? The guy who invented the tunnels THOUGHT he was inventing
> time travel, but was wrong. His (?) mother was going into a stasis
> box to await some kind of medical treatment, but I don't consider
> forward travel to be time travel.
>
>> _Time Machines_ (Nahin) lists a few other Heinlein stories that are
>> unknown to me. Unknown stories that are worthy of my consideration,
>> given the precedent set by _The Door Into Summer_ et al. The other
>> Heinlein time travel stories are: _The Number of the Beast_,
>> "Life-Line," "-And He Built a Crooked House," and "Elsewhen."
>
> Life-Line was a measurement only. Not even a future viewer. I don't
> consider it "travel".

It's not. But then "Time Machine" can refer to other things than time
vehicles and it does deal with the central issue time travel raises

"And He Built A Crooked House" involved a
> number of portals into presumably the present but far away. I don't
> recall any time travel in it.
>

Now I'm wondering. It's been a long time since I read that story but I
may recall that at one point the group sees theirselves at an earlier
point in their exploration of it.

[Scott Lurndal]

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <0gfVA.88383$bl5....@fx25.iad>,
>Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>>In article <og37qr$s2e$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>>Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>On 5/20/2017 8:04 AM, Don Kuenz wrote:
>>>
>>>[review snipped, because we've all read it by now]
>>>>
>>>>I do not own this book nor do I recall reading it. Of course, I could
>>>>have lost it in The Great Flood of '89. I will order a used copy off
>>>>Amazon since the book is way out of print.
>>>
>>>Oh, do. My take is that the first part is painful (the bad guys
>>>doing bad things and the good guy can't stop them); the second
>>>part interesting, though subsequent history has shoved it into
>>>the realm of fantasy; the third part, where the good guy gets his
>>>act together, foils the bad guys in several ways, including the
>>>fourth dimension, and lives happily ever after. Also, the cat.
>>
>>Don't forget the roomba's (or ancestors thereof)...
>
>Oh, yeah, except even the Hired Girl Mk 1 could do more than the
>Roomba can. "Pick up anything bigger than a pea and put it on
>its top tray for the housewife to sort out. Leave the room when
>anyone enters it, unless the housewife runs after it to tell the
>poor thing it's welcome."

Drafting Dan -> Autocad?

[Michael Black]

On Wed, 24 May 2017, Greg Goss wrote:

> Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Time travel plays a secondary role in _Farnham's Freehold_ and
>> _Tunnel in the Sky_. Those novels rank as my least favorite time travel
>> stories because the time travel's only incidental. Those stories are
>> really about other things.
>
> Tunnel? The guy who invented the tunnels THOUGHT he was inventing
> time travel, but was wrong. His (?) mother was going into a stasis
> box to await some kind of medical treatment, but I don't consider
> forward travel to be time travel.
>

That's why it ranks low on his scale of books about time travel.

The inventor thought he'd travelled in time, until he got arrested.

Michael

[Don Kuenz]

It's classic triangulation. There's one narcissist, one stupid guy, and
one unsuspecting guy. Triangulation happens all of time in real life
because about one in seven people suffer from Cluster-B personality
disorders.

The narcissist grooms the unsuspecting guy during the idealization
phase. She simultaneously manipulates the stupid guy. He's stupid
because although he's "in the know" he firmly believes that somehow his
own fate will be different from the fate of the unsuspecting guy.

The stupid guy "goes along for the ride" while the narcissist does her
thing. But, he's too stupid to understand that he also is being
"taken for a ride," by the psychopath.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

I don't remember that. They do see themselves from the back, as the
house has bent space (but not time) into a loop. Initially they don't
recognize themselves and attempt pursuit, but then realize what's
happening.



--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <og45bu$qm3$1...@dont-email.me>,

David Johnston <davidjo...@block.com> wrote:
>On 5/24/2017 8:01 AM, Greg Goss wrote:
>> Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Time travel plays a secondary role in _Farnham's Freehold_ and
>>> _Tunnel in the Sky_. Those novels rank as my least favorite time travel
>>> stories because the time travel's only incidental. Those stories are
>>> really about other things.
>>
>> Tunnel? The guy who invented the tunnels THOUGHT he was inventing
>> time travel, but was wrong. His (?) mother was going into a stasis
>> box to await some kind of medical treatment, but I don't consider
>> forward travel to be time travel.
>>
>>> _Time Machines_ (Nahin) lists a few other Heinlein stories that are
>>> unknown to me. Unknown stories that are worthy of my consideration,
>>> given the precedent set by _The Door Into Summer_ et al. The other
>>> Heinlein time travel stories are: _The Number of the Beast_,
>>> "Life-Line," "-And He Built a Crooked House," and "Elsewhen."
>>
>> Life-Line was a measurement only. Not even a future viewer. I don't
>> consider it "travel".
>
>It's not. But then "Time Machine" can refer to other things than time
>vehicles and it does deal with the central issue time travel raises

E.g., Asimov's "The Dead Past," in which there is a time *viewer*
that turns out to have unpleasant side effects.

[David Johnston]

Or as my own ending to it goes "Ehn. We'll get used to it."

[Don Kuenz]

"And He Built A Crooked House" appears in the February 1941 issue of
_Astounding_. As an aside, the second installation of _Sixth Column_
(Anson MacDonald) also appears in that same issue.

...time out to read the story...

This story starts with the premise that the rest of the world views
Americans as crazy. It then successively winnows down the scope of crazy
to: California, Los Angeles, Hollywood, the Laurel Canyon, and finally
Lookout Mountain. At the level of Hollywood the natives don't care what
the rest of the world thinks.

The story then offers a very brief survey of Southern California's
unique architectures. [1] It mentions The Pup and the Chili Bowl
restaurants by name. It alludes to the Feed Rack restaurant.

Then the story moves on to a house built as a three dimensional
projection of a tesseract (hypercube). The house looks like Dali's
Crucifixion (Corpus Hypercubus) [2] turned upside down. One cube on the
bottom, five cubes on the next level, one cube on the next level, and
one cube at the top.

When an overnight quake shakes the house it collapses into a stable four
dimensional structure. The fourth dimension is time, which introduces
the notion of space-time. The house folds space-time back upon itself.

Three people tour the house. As you say, they see the backside of
themselves. There's no time travel, only the notion of the intrinsic
space-time of a tesseract.

The second edition of _Time Machines_ was published in 1999. A few years
later the movie _Cube 2: Hypercube_ [3] was released.

The movie's mostly a cult classic for made for temporalphiles, such as
me. It also shows people who see themselves from behind. In addition, it
shows who see themselves in the future and the past.

The mathematics, or physics, or whatever you call it, that pertains to a
tesseract is beyond my level of comprehension. In the story RAH mentions
the Picard-Vessiot theory, stereochemistry, and homomorphology.


Note.

1. http://www.vintag.es/2016/03/22-vintage-pictures-of-old-los-angeles.html
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_(Corpus_Hypercubus)
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube_2:_Hypercube

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <og56bp$c60$1...@dont-email.me>,

And in fact, we still don't have time viewers, but we have
picture phones everywhere, and people are starting to get used to
*everything* being on record. Politicians, for some reason,
aren't catching on to this as fast as the rest of us.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Or many law enforcement agencies.

--
"That's my secret, Captain: I'm always angry."

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <20170...@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>>
>
>"And He Built A Crooked House" appears in the February 1941 issue of
>_Astounding_. As an aside, the second installation of _Sixth Column_
>(Anson MacDonald) also appears in that same issue.
>
> ...time out to read the story...
>
>This story starts with the premise that the rest of the world views
>Americans as crazy. It then successively winnows down the scope of crazy
>to: California, Los Angeles, Hollywood, the Laurel Canyon, and finally
>Lookout Mountain. At the level of Hollywood the natives don't care what
>the rest of the world thinks.

Ah. Now, in the 1960s the Berkeley (CA) _Barb_ had an article on
a free clinic and its patients, and someone commented,

"The United States has traditionally been the refuge for
weirdness from the rest of the world. California is the refuge
for weirdness from the rest of the US. The Bay Area is the
refuge for weirdness from the rest of California. Berkeley is
the refuge for weirdness from the rest of the Bay Area. If
you're too weird for Berkeley, you may be too weird for this
planet."
>
>
>1. http://www.vintag.es/2016/03/22-vintage-pictures-of-old-los-angeles.html

I'll see your odd-shaped restaurants and raise you the Burbank
Fry's.

http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/burbank-location-frys-electronics-hours-maps-directions

~https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/frys-electronics-burbank

Its interior is full of old big-bug SF movie stuff, including a
life-sized Gort and the actual model for the spaceship and its
ramp from _When Worlds Collide._

Some of the other branches of Fry's have interesting decor, but
nothing like Burbank's.

[David Mitchell]

On 25/05/17 03:36, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> And in fact, we still don't have time viewers, but we have
> picture phones everywhere, and people are starting to get used to
> *everything* being on record. Politicians, for some reason,
> aren't catching on to this as fast as the rest of us.
>

https://xkcd.com/1235/

Aliens, Lake Monsters, Ghosts and Bigfoot, apparently have.

[Greg Goss]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:


>Drafting Dan -> Autocad?

The stub of a plan for DD was pretty much unworkable. You need a
mouse and a video screen for practical electrodrafting.

[Greg Goss]

>In article <20170...@crcomp.net>, Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>
>>"And He Built A Crooked House" appears in the February 1941 issue of
>>_Astounding_. As an aside, the second installation of _Sixth Column_
>>(Anson MacDonald) also appears in that same issue.
>>
>> ...time out to read the story...
>>
>>This story starts with the premise that the rest of the world views
>>Americans as crazy. It then successively winnows down the scope of crazy
>>to: California, Los Angeles, Hollywood, the Laurel Canyon, and finally
>>Lookout Mountain. At the level of Hollywood the natives don't care what
>>the rest of the world thinks.

The meta-story I've been told is that "the Hermit of Hollywood" who
lived near the specified address was Heinein's address at the time.

[Scott Lurndal]

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> writes:
>sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>
>>Drafting Dan -> Autocad?
>
>The stub of a plan for DD was pretty much unworkable. You need a
>mouse and a video screen for practical electrodrafting.

If one can mechanically move a pencil, one could also mechanically
move an eraser (rubber across the pond). Pantographs weren't
uncommon in the olden days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph#Drafting

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <eoo6o8...@mid.individual.net>,

Gosh. I can't envision Heinlein as a hermit. Now, he may have
been unsociable to his neighbors, who after all weren't science
fiction people. But what I've read seems to indicate he was very
sociable with his own kind.

There's always the bit in Boucher's _Rocket to the Morgue_ where
the door leading from the outside toto Anson Carter's [he's apparently
a Tuckerized melange of Heinlein and Kuttner] office is labeled
"NITROSYNCRETIC LABORATORY! KEEP OUT!" But I don't know whether
that label really appeared on Heinlein's door or whether Boucher
was just having fun, and it's too late to ask any of them.

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2017-05-20 22:41, Don Kuenz wrote:

> Alrescha <alre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Don Kuenz <g...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>

>>> The story also has an adult male who chases after a prepubescent female.
>>

>> With all due respect, I believe you have the roles reversed. The text
>> makes it abundantly clear that the man has zero interest in little girls
>> and directly addresses the creepiness of such men (scene at the summer
>> camp).
>
> _The Time Traveler's Wife_ (Audrey Niffenegger) also contains, not a
> May, but rather a February September romance. Claire, the wife, first
> meets Henry, the traveler, at a tender age. She lives a normal life
> while he lives a discontinuous life.

"The Consul's Tale" (subtitled "Remembering Siri"), from _Hyperion_
by Dan Simmons starts with the Consul visiting the tomb of Siri
(hence the subtitle).

She remained on Maui-Covenant, the planet where they first met. He was
an explorer (I think) and spent most of his time under relativistic
time-dilation. When they met, he was your and she was younger.

By the time of her death, sixty-five years had passed for her, and she
had become a powerful politician. He stopped by every ten or so years
(M-C time), and continued to love her even though she had aged those
sixty-five years, while only five had passed for him.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Life's too important to take seriously.

[Mike Van Pelt]

In article <oqHnu...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

>I'll see your odd-shaped restaurants and raise you the Burbank
>Fry's.
>
>http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/burbank-location-frys-electronics-hours-maps-directions
>
>~https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/frys-electronics-burbank

Ooooo....

Must... go... there...

--
"The urge to save humanity is almost | Mike Van Pelt
always a false front for the urge to rule." | mvp at calweb.com
-- H.L. Mencken | KE6BVH

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <8VGVA.89922$bl5....@fx25.iad>,

Mike Van Pelt <m...@web1.calweb.com> wrote:
>In article <oqHnu...@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>I'll see your odd-shaped restaurants and raise you the Burbank
>>Fry's.
>>
>>http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/burbank-location-frys-electronics-hours-maps-directions
>>
>>~https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/frys-electronics-burbank
>
>Ooooo....
>
>Must... go... there...

Do, if it's humanly (or otherwise, your choice) possible.

I don't think I mentioned that the crashed flying saucer, seen
from the outside, is also prominent on the inside, with Little
Green Men climbing out of it inspecting the damage.

Rather similar to the last scene in _Galaxy Quest_ which may have
been inspired by the Burbank Fry's.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <oqJ3t...@kithrup.com>,

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <8VGVA.89922$bl5....@fx25.iad>,
>Mike Van Pelt <m...@web1.calweb.com> wrote:
>>In article <oqHnu...@kithrup.com>,
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>I'll see your odd-shaped restaurants and raise you the Burbank
>>>Fry's.
>>>
>>>http://www.frys.com/ac/storeinfo/burbank-location-frys-electronics-hours-maps-directions
>>>
>>>~https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/frys-electronics-burbank
>>
>>Ooooo....
>>
>>Must... go... there...
>
>Do, if it's humanly (or otherwise, your choice) possible.
>
>I don't think I mentioned that the crashed flying saucer, seen
>from the outside, is also prominent on the inside, with Little
>Green Men climbing out of it inspecting the damage.
>
>Rather similar to the last scene in _Galaxy Quest_ which may have
>been inspired by the Burbank Fry's.
>

http://tednolan.net/pix/16-07-04-fl/html/p1330250.html
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Cryptoengineer]

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote in news:eoo6o8...@mid.individual.net:

Yes, you can even find the house on Google Street view.

pt

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-05-25, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

> David Johnston <davidjo...@block.com> wrote:
>>Or as my own ending to it goes "Ehn. We'll get used to it."
>
> And in fact, we still don't have time viewers, but we have
> picture phones everywhere, and people are starting to get used to
> *everything* being on record. Politicians, for some reason,
> aren't catching on to this as fast as the rest of us.

ObSF: Bob Shaw's fixup novel, _Light of Other Days_.

Dave, it has changed the climate of some outdoor amusements as well
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2017-05-25, Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "The Consul's Tale" (subtitled "Remembering Siri"), from _Hyperion_
> by Dan Simmons starts with the Consul visiting the tomb of Siri
> (hence the subtitle).
>
> She remained on Maui-Covenant, the planet where they first met. He was
> an explorer (I think) and spent most of his time under relativistic
> time-dilation. When they met, he was your and she was younger.
>
> By the time of her death, sixty-five years had passed for her, and she
> had become a powerful politician. He stopped by every ten or so years
> (M-C time), and continued to love her even though she had aged those
> sixty-five years, while only five had passed for him.

Oh! _The Veils of Azlaroc_ by, let's see, ok, Fred Saberhagen. The Veils,
through unexplained physics-mangling, separate each 'year' from the next in one
particularly improbable star system. If you're there when a Veil falls, you're
trapped... and eventually fade far enough out that you can't see, hear, or
feel present-day people and structures. The actual time-travel part is near
the end, if I recall right.

Dave

[Cryptoengineer]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in news:_
4adnSlsILKVCLrE...@earthlink.com:

> On 2017-05-25, Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> David Johnston <davidjo...@block.com> wrote:
>>>Or as my own ending to it goes "Ehn. We'll get used to it."
>>
>> And in fact, we still don't have time viewers, but we have
>> picture phones everywhere, and people are starting to get used to
>> *everything* being on record. Politicians, for some reason,
>> aren't catching on to this as fast as the rest of us.
>
> ObSF: Bob Shaw's fixup novel, _Light of Other Days_.

The whole book has surveillance becoming easier and easy as
the fixup goes on becoming near unavoidable by the end.

However, the 'remost time viewer' devices of some other
stories are even more intrusive.

Vaguely related: at work today, outside a SCIF, wherein a
classified meeting was taking place, I counted at least
30 smartphones just sitting unattended on a table in a
hallway, where their owners had deposited them before
going in.

pt

[Dimensional Traveler]

On 5/25/2017 7:41 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2017-05-25, Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "The Consul's Tale" (subtitled "Remembering Siri"), from _Hyperion_
>> by Dan Simmons starts with the Consul visiting the tomb of Siri
>> (hence the subtitle).
>>
>> She remained on Maui-Covenant, the planet where they first met. He was
>> an explorer (I think) and spent most of his time under relativistic
>> time-dilation. When they met, he was your and she was younger.
>>
>> By the time of her death, sixty-five years had passed for her, and she
>> had become a powerful politician. He stopped by every ten or so years
>> (M-C time), and continued to love her even though she had aged those
>> sixty-five years, while only five had passed for him.
>
> Oh! _The Veils of Azlaroc_ by, let's see, ok, Fred Saberhagen. The Veils,
> through unexplained physics-mangling, separate each 'year' from the next in one
> particularly improbable star system. If you're there when a Veil falls, you're
> trapped... and eventually fade far enough out that you can't see, hear, or
> feel present-day people and structures. The actual time-travel part is near
> the end, if I recall right.
>

Set in the Berserker universe IIRC.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <XnsA780EF2DC2...@216.166.97.131>,

The "unattended" part doesn't sound so good. Unless all these
cleared-for-classified-material people had scrupulously never,
ever put anything relevant on their phones.

A lockbox in the hall (with access suitably controlled) would've
been a better idea.

[Chris Zakes]

When he still lived in California, Heinlein *did* put weird warning
signs on the door leading from the outside to his writing area. He
mentions them in some of his letters to John Campbell. (Of course you
pretty much need to have access to the Virginia Edition to have read
those letters.) https://www.heinleinbooks.com/book-store

-Chris Zakes
Texas

--

GNU Terry Pratchett
Mind how you go.

[Chris Zakes]

<shrug> I still see pictures of all of them regularly on Coast to
Coast AM.com.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <57vmic1nicm42bbvu...@4ax.com>,

And when he lived in Santa Cruz (still in California, further
north) he had to put up what Randall Garrett described as a
hippie-proof fence to keep out all the nitwits who wanted to come
in and grok and share water. "Grok you, Bob," Randall concluded,
to which Heinlein mildly answered, "Well, I do own a pair of
sandals."

>He
>mentions them in some of his letters to John Campbell. (Of course you
>pretty much need to have access to the Virginia Edition to have read
>those letters.) https://www.heinleinbooks.com/book-store

Good Lord. Tempting, but I already have worn PBs of all his
novels that I want to read, and if I had a spare grand and a half
I could think of more urgent uses for it.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Bigfoot especially is photographed, but a lot of the assumptions that
people make is "you have a camera, you use it". People confronted by
something frightening/shocking often don't remember they HAVE a camera,
and may not think to take it out anyway; they're concerned about their
safety, not clicking away to share on Facebook later. Heck, even just
the "surprising/awesome" is like that; I can't COUNT the number of times
I've seen something amazing and only AFTERWARD thought "jeez, I
should've gotten a pic of that".


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

[Kay Shapero]

In article <ogjj80$79l$1...@dont-email.me>, sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...

>
> Bigfoot especially is photographed, but a lot of the assumptions that
> people make is "you have a camera, you use it". People confronted by
> something frightening/shocking often don't remember they HAVE a camera,
> and may not think to take it out anyway; they're concerned about their
> safety, not clicking away to share on Facebook later. Heck, even just
> the "surprising/awesome" is like that; I can't COUNT the number of times
> I've seen something amazing and only AFTERWARD thought "jeez, I
> should've gotten a pic of that".

Yeppers. In late September, 2012 the 747 with the shuttle Endeavor on
top flew into Los Angeles with much fanfare. As it happens, I live
neatly between the eastward leg of the final flightpath loop into LAX
(the second leg proceeds westward and into the airport.) So I was
sitting out front memoralizing Bilbo Baggins' birthday with second
breakfast (ok, a piece of toast), when sure enough it came past. I had
my iTouch (with camera) in my pocket, and there it stayed because it was
just such a cool sight that it didn't occur to me to take it out until
it had passed. Seemed to take forever, of course actually only a few
seconds, and frankly I'm just as glad NOT to have watched the whole
thing through a viewfinder. I checked the net and snagged a copy of a
good shot someone with better equipment on the roof of an apartment in
Marina del Rey got shortly before it passed by me, so have a better
souvineer photo than I would likely have taken anyway.

--

Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.

[Mike Van Pelt]

In article <ogjj80$79l$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>I can't COUNT the number of times I've seen something
>amazing and only AFTERWARD thought "jeez, I should've gotten
>a pic of that".

Once, at Sequoia National Park, I already had my camera
out as I was walking on the trail around the meadow, turned
the corner, and snapped a picture as I backed carefully
away from the bear that was WAY TOO <REDACTED> CLOSE and
WAY TOO <REDACTED> BIG!!

If I hadn't had my camera already out, though, I wouldn't
have paused long enough to get it.

[Chris Zakes]

On Mon, 29 May 2017 03:16:04 GMT, an orbital mind-control laser

He had similar problems when he still lived in Colorado. This is from
a 1961 letter to Bjo Trimble, talking about his wife, Virginia:

"Her Sybaritic attitude toward baths matches that of the decadent days
of the Roman Empire; her bath is her favorite living room and I
designed it most carefully to her tastes--not a speck of cold tile,
nor chrome, nor white enamel anywhere, green and gold are the only
colors...a huge, square neo-angle tub in green, cork floor, walls and
cabinet work in bleached mahogany...and, of course, space planned for
flowers and pictures.

I heated the tub itself, Japanese style, and brought a big picture
window right down to the edge of the tub, wide as the tub and as high
as the ceiling--quite all right as it looks into a mountain arroyo
which we own; nothing but deer and birds can look in. (Well, once,
just once, a fan from out of town dropped in and, instead of knocking,
went all around the house, looking in windows, and Ginny became aware
of his presence by this face staring at her a few inches away--Ginny
screamed and exploded out of that tub like a seal. But I have since
installed a high steel fence; Ginny can lounge back and enjoy the view
without nerve-jangling surprises.)

Ginny fills the tub to her chin (it is big enough for four people, six
if they're well acquainted), surrounds herself with cigarettes, ash
trays, drink, chewing gum, mail, book and book rack, magazines, puts
on a stack of records or turns on FM (I piped sound in, with local
controls), switches off the telephone--and stays there happy as a
frog, hours at a stretch, surrounded by cats."

>>He
>>mentions them in some of his letters to John Campbell. (Of course you
>>pretty much need to have access to the Virginia Edition to have read
>>those letters.) https://www.heinleinbooks.com/book-store
>
>Good Lord. Tempting, but I already have worn PBs of all his
>novels that I want to read, and if I had a spare grand and a half
>I could think of more urgent uses for it.

I have paperbacks of all the novels as well. The cool thing about the
Virginia Edition is all the things that *aren't* in the novels: an
entire volume (750 pages worth) of his letters to and from John
Campbell, two more volumes of his letters to other people (such as the
one quoted above), movie and TV scripts, etc. It's not quite
everything the man ever wrote, but it's a sizeable chunk of it.

And yeah, $1500.00 is a lot of money. My wife loves me very much.

[Chris Zakes]

On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 02:14:16 +0100, an orbital mind-control laser
caused John <M...@the.keyboard> to write:

>On Fri, 02 Jun 2017 21:03:19 -0500, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com>
>wrote:

(snip)

>>I have paperbacks of all the novels as well. The cool thing about the
>>Virginia Edition is all the things that *aren't* in the novels: an
>>entire volume (750 pages worth) of his letters to and from John
>>Campbell, two more volumes of his letters to other people (such as the
>>one quoted above), movie and TV scripts, etc. It's not quite
>>everything the man ever wrote, but it's a sizeable chunk of it.
>>
>>And yeah, $1500.00 is a lot of money. My wife loves me very much.
>

> As did mine, but had I thought of spending that much on *books* ...
>she would have smiled and allowed me to do it.
>
> Anyone care to enlighten us off-Continenet peasants what the
>differences between the USAland and the International versions are and
>why it costs 300-bux more to buy from UKland?

At a guess, it's the extra shipping costs for overseas. The set is 46
hardback books, in half a dozen fairly large boxes.


> Also, is "2000" the *TOTAL* number printed or were there two thousand
>of each edition?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. There were 2000 sets of the
Virginia Edition produced (my set is listed an #477 of 2000) and you
can only buy the full, 46-volume set, not individual books.


> I'm not really considering buying a copy. It would outlive me and
>I've no friend or relative to bequeath such a thing to.

Bequeath it to a library? Maybe the local hospice? (Their reading
matter tends to run very heavily toward bestsellers and the occasional
romance novel, in my observation.)

[John]

On Thu, 08 Jun 2017 08:18:55 -0500, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 02:14:16 +0100, an orbital mind-control laser
>caused John <M...@the.keyboard> to write:
>
>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2017 21:03:19 -0500, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
>>>I have paperbacks of all the novels as well. The cool thing about the
>>>Virginia Edition is all the things that *aren't* in the novels: an
>>>entire volume (750 pages worth) of his letters to and from John
>>>Campbell, two more volumes of his letters to other people (such as the
>>>one quoted above), movie and TV scripts, etc. It's not quite
>>>everything the man ever wrote, but it's a sizeable chunk of it.
>>>
>>>And yeah, $1500.00 is a lot of money. My wife loves me very much.
>>
>> As did mine, but had I thought of spending that much on *books* ...
>>she would have smiled and allowed me to do it.
>>
>> Anyone care to enlighten us off-Continenet peasants what the
>>differences between the USAland and the International versions are and
>>why it costs 300-bux more to buy from UKland?
>
>At a guess, it's the extra shipping costs for overseas. The set is 46
>hardback books, in half a dozen fairly large boxes.

That make some sense, thanks. However, why have two "editions", why
not just add 300-bux postage?

I've lifted boxes of books. I can well believe the Post Office would
charge 300 dollars or more for carrying such things.
Books are not light.
Though they do illuminate.

>
>
>> Also, is "2000" the *TOTAL* number printed or were there two thousand
>>of each edition?
>
>I'm not quite sure what you're asking. There were 2000 sets of the
>Virginia Edition produced (my set is listed an #477 of 2000) and you
>can only buy the full, 46-volume set, not individual books.

Are there 2000 US-edition and 2000-International edition. Or are
there 2000 *total* and the two "versions" are just differentiated by
cost?
If I buy one set for my house in UKland could I swap it for yours and
neither of us would notice the difference?
Did they print 4000 copies? 2000 for USAlia and another 2000 for the
entire rest of the universe or are there only two thousand?

Sorry, I thought it was a simple question.
The reason I asked was copyright. The editions of USAlien books we
get here are rarely the same as what you privileged few are allowed to
purchase. Sometines even the names and covers are changed. So I was
thinking that the "International Edition" might actually be a
different object with different content, different covers and
different stuff.
If it's just the USAlien edition with added postage and customs dues
then I am answered.

>
>
>> I'm not really considering buying a copy. It would outlive me and
>>I've no friend or relative to bequeath such a thing to.
>
>Bequeath it to a library? Maybe the local hospice? (Their reading
>matter tends to run very heavily toward bestsellers and the occasional
>romance novel, in my observation.)

Not in UKland. Libraries here are not respected, books less so. I
wouldn't donate tatty paperbacks to our Library.
And there is no way I'd legacy such a valuable thing to any hospital.
Those places don't even respect *patients*. All they want to do is to
have you sign a DNR so they can shove you out the airlock and put
another tick in another box.
Anyway, the SF and science books in hospitals never get stolen so I
doubt anyone bothers to read them.

A personal, if I may? Would *you* bequeath your set to a local
charity?
*Any* charity?
Knowing for a fact that the set would remain intact for less time
than it took to unbox them.
J.

>
> -Chris Zakes
> Texas

[Michael Black]

I have books that I would judge to be "valuable", though not necessarily
price wise. And I do wonder where they could go. If some group is just
going to sell them to raise funds, I'm not sure that's the best route for
them. Libraries aren't usually archives anymore. Non-profit groups that
might have libraries suitable for these (I'm not talking science fiction),
even when they have an actual library, I'm not sure I trust them to be
long term keepers of the books.

And most are books I've already pulled out of used book sales run by
libraries or other non-profits. So that history of the NAACP, written by
Langston Hughes, many won't find particularly important, especially since
it's in pocket size paperback, but it should be seen as a historical thing
in itself, and the fact that it seems to be signed by Langston is a
bonus. Books like that, together it's a collection of such books, apart,
it's just more paperbacks mixed in with the rest. Even my copy of "The
Butterfly Kid" would probably go in there, rather than with science
fiction. Lots of them I've never seen but the one time, so I know they
aren't common books, and I know the topic or author is worthy, but that
doesn't mean someone would buy the books and pay money.

I will say that a few years ago, one of the local used book sales ende dup
with a very large collection of science fiction. SOmeone died or someone
moved, not only was it a large collection compared to the usual small
selection at such sales, but it was a wide swatch of authors, mostly older
books. So the sale got some money, but nothing prime, and whoever owned
it gave up his books, and got nothing for it.

The local science fiction club had a book sale about four years ago, a
member was moving and couldn't take his collection with him (I'm not sure
if he kept any of his books). So he just gave them to the club, who had a
book sale, adding some other donations. And they've had one annually
since then, I think still some leftovers from that first collection but
others bring in books they no longer want. That's a good way, especialy
with a niche like science fiction, because it's going to find the audience
that wants it, and I assume it may bring in some people for the first
time, who might join the club. But it doesn't really deal with "valuable"
books, things that aren't going to be seen much.

The reservation nearest to Montreal about a decade ago started a library,
a teenager deciding they needed one, and getting a campaign rolling. And
they put out a call for books, so I donated some, trying to pick reference
type books, so I gave them some books I wouldn't have considered getting
rid of otherwise, I wasn't just culling. I would hope they got onto the
library's shelves, but I don't know, I also know they had a book sale. I
gave awy that book about Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce, before I noticed
that I'm probably related to people in his band.

Michael

[jeanet...@gmail.com]

Before you donate to a library, check to see what they want. My daughter is a librarian and her library really doesn't want donations. Processing costs money and part of the librarian's job is to choose which books they have space for.

Jeanette

[John]

On Thu, 8 Jun 2017 21:32:46 -0700 (PDT), jeanet...@gmail.com
wrote:

A very good point.

> My daughter is a librarian

She's my hero. Truly, Librarians are the guardians of our memory, the
protectors of Civilisation. It is a noble profession.

>and her library really doesn't want donations.

Many do not. In UKland it is rare to find one that will.

>Processing costs money and part of the librarian's job is to choose
> which books they have space for.

Yerp. I used to get loads of books from their discard pile. Really
good ones in excellent condition for mere pennies. If my books *came*
from the Library the odds of them wanting to be given them are not
high.

Besides which, as *books* many of my books are worthless but they
make up collections and as collections they might be worth more. They
certainly would be to anyone wishing to read the entire story in a
series.
For example, "The Lensman" saga or the "Foundation" novels. As
complete tales, these are worth having if you are a reader but no one,
not the Library, hospitals, poor schools or anyone else would keep
them together.
And something like an encyclopedia or the Virgina Edition would not
survive being unboxed before it got split up.

I've been a Librarian, and have messed about (pretending to work) in
places that survive on book donations. They are not kind to them.

Sure, *some* Libraries, those that are essentially museums like the
British Library, *do* take great care of *some* parts of their
collection but 50 early "Executioner" books, or the complete
"Skylark"? Those would be pulped faster than they could be winnowed
out.

I definitely don't have a relative or friend who would want my
library. Some may want a few parts of it, the odd "Star Trek" novel or
book of jokes, but the entire thing would be binned.
I have long suspected that the kindest, easiest and best thing for me
to do with my books is to dump them in the bin.

That way, I would be *sure* they'll stay together.
J.


>
>Jeanette

[jeanet...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, May 20, 2017 at 6:07:57 AM UTC-7, Don Kuenz wrote:
> This novel originally appears in serialized form in the October,
> November, and December 1956 editions of _F&SF_. Each installment
> possesses unique strengths. There's also a charismatic cat named Pete
> who skulks and strops his way through the installments along with the
> protagonist.
>
> The story builds on the time travel themes introduced in "By His
> Bootstraps" and paves the way to the advanced themes found in "All You
> Zombies." Two types of time travel are used in the story.
>
> The first installment introduces feasible time travel that uses
> cryogenic suspended animation to provide one way trips into the near
> future. The second installment introduces fantastical time travel that
> uses a machine to take a traveler back into the near past.
>
> Dan's an inventive engineer who enters into a partnership with a
> businessman named Miles to build and sell mechanical devices and robots.
> One of their first employees is a vamp named Bella. She's a manipulative
> psychopath who drives a wedge between the partners so that she can
> pickup the spoils after the partnership breaks up.
>
> The first installment's triangulated story element emotionally hooks me.
> It stokes my hunger for revenge until not even a tome of tripe can stop
> me from reading and reaching the part of the story where the psychopath
> gets some payback.
>
> The second installment hooks me because it uses the University of
> Colorado at Boulder and surrounding environs as it's setting. That area
> has nostalgic value to me from my college days. It's only too easy to
> imagine myself as a colleague of Dr Twitchell, the man who created the
> fantastical time travel machine that can send a person a few decades
> into the past. Twitch's time machine manifests an element of
> Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
>
> The third installment's a "must read" simply because of the inevitable
> denouement. It also takes parallel worlds off the table and puts forth
> the argument that only "one true timeline" can ever exist.
>
> Overall an enjoyable story, except for a couple of things. There's a
> brief nudest colony setting that's far too groupie for me, but at the
> same time seems very Heinleinesque.

>
> The story also has an adult male who chases after a prepubescent female.

> It reminds me of _The Time Traveler's Wife_ (Niffenegger) wherein only
> the time travel angle keeps the squickiness at bay.
>
> Thank you,
>
> --
> Don Kuenz KB7RPU

Oh--please don't bin them. Look around for a book club or sci-fi fan group. I am sure you can find someone to love them for at least another generation. A book store with a large sci-fi collection can probably point the way.

Jeanette

[Nyssa]

I second this motion.

It might be worth asking around to see if there are Scout
troops, church groups, or ham radio/computer clubs that either
might be interested in setting up a library for members
or possible recipients among their members.

As much as they're pushing digital copies of books (for
comparatively high prices in a lot of cases), dead tree
books still have a lot going for them. No charging, no
special or proprietary file formats, no special devices,
and even better there are a LOT of books out there that
have never and most probably will never be converted to
digital format.

Plus they can be lent, traded, shared without worrying
if a) the lendee has a compatible device, b) if the rights
owner "allows" it to be shared or loaned digitally, and
c) without going through a middleman (the digital vendor
such as Amazon) asking "mother, may I" each time you
want to loan a book out. Plus many of those digital books
can only be loaned *once* and for a limited amount of
time. And forget about leaving that digital library to your
heirs. (Unless you've converted them, stored them *not* in
the cloud, and let someone know how to access them plus your
account information and they have a compatible system, etc.)

So look a little harder and ask a few more people for
possible new homes for those books.

Nyssa, who has a huge library of REAL books to worry about
eventually plus an ever-growing digital library

[Michael Black]

Yes, I just bought a paper copy of "Red Planet" last month, my previous
copy falling apart, but also, this is the one with the edited material
back in. Kind of subtle, but I'm surprised by the early "Martians smell"
bit, a little bit suprised that it was there, but also surprised it was
taken out. At the time, it seems a reference to people closer to home.

I have found Heinlein books used over the years, but Red Planet broke up
some time back, and I haven't seen a used copy since. Yes, I know they
can be bought online, but I don't. I wish this was a pocket paper back,
the move now seems to be towards trade paperbacks. I wonder if that
reflects a lesser interest in Heinlein, at least the juveniles for the
juveniles.

I have to replace a few others, that Door into Summer with the astrolabe
on the cover, that was used when I got it in the seventies, and the cover
finally fell off. Same with Double Star, both books that weren't readily
available at the new book store in the seventies here, so I had to buy at
a used book store. I'm not sure they are in print now either, when I
checked they seemed unavailable at the moment.

But yes, I want the Heinleins in actual book form. Ebooks take up less
space, but they aren't the same thing. indeed, spending so much time on
the tablet, I'm thinking it's not a good thing to move to ebook reading,
other issues aside, since I need a break from the screen. I saw a
tempting offer about magazines in electronic form, I've mostly given up on
magazines as they get expensive and have less content that I want, but I
crave for magazines at the same time. This would be cheap, but more
screen reading.

Michael

[John]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 12:51:53 -0400, Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca>
wrote:

Not while I breathe, no, but I'm told that this is a limited time
option that will expire shortly and my "next-of-kin" is even less
likely to preserve my collection than the local binmen are.
Bequeathing to a SciFi club is not on as there are none in range.

>>> Look around for a book club or
>>> sci-fi fan group. I am sure you can find someone to love
>>> them for at least another generation.

I am less sure about this.
But I see the glass as topologically equivalent to a flat plane which
may or may not have beer balanced on top of it.

>>> A book store with a
>>> large sci-fi collection can probably point the way.

Again, none in the immediate area. None well-known enough to
advertise prominently.
"Dark They Were And Golden Eyed" was wonderful but it shut. All
bookstores, save the massive "Doubleday"-type chains die and those big
buggers have no liking for legacies. All they sell is crud.

>>>
>>> Jeanette
>>
>> I second this motion.
>>
>> It might be worth asking around to see if there are Scout
>> troops, church groups, or ham radio/computer clubs that either
>> might be interested in setting up a library for members
>> or possible recipients among their members.

No.
I am utterly and unashamedly opposed to scouting groups and other
religious orders. I see them as just one step away from "Hitler
Youth".
Yes, I know, I am tasteless, crude, barbaric and insane but the HY
were once *special* and *good* and *clean*. It takes but a few days to
convert this into pure evil incarnate.
I dislike religion. All religion.
And I don't support charities where their bosses are Lords and take
wages that are larger than those of ten nurses combined.
Charities like CAFOD are, therefore, doubly evil.

Besides, charities and scouting groups are prone to disassembly of
collectives. They are in it for the money, not the history or the
culture.

The best place for a collection of books would be a private Library
like the Hunterian in Glasgow or the British Library a few decades ago
but even those types of places are financially constrained today.

The only safe-ish place for my books is under my care. Everywhere
else is a death sentence for them.

>>
>> As much as they're pushing digital copies of books (for
>> comparatively high prices in a lot of cases), dead tree
>> books still have a lot going for them. No charging, no
>> special or proprietary file formats, no special devices,
>> and even better there are a LOT of books out there that
>> have never and most probably will never be converted to
>> digital format.

Isaac Asimov wrote a short F&SF article on this subject. He did it
decades before book-readers became universally available.

>>
>Yes, I just bought a paper copy of "Red Planet" last month, my previous
>copy falling apart, but also, this is the one with the edited material
>back in. Kind of subtle, but I'm surprised by the early "Martians smell"
>bit, a little bit suprised that it was there, but also surprised it was
>taken out. At the time, it seems a reference to people closer to home.
>
>I have found Heinlein books used over the years, but Red Planet broke up
>some time back, and I haven't seen a used copy since. Yes, I know they
>can be bought online, but I don't. I wish this was a pocket paper back,
>the move now seems to be towards trade paperbacks. I wonder if that
>reflects a lesser interest in Heinlein, at least the juveniles for the
>juveniles.

I just wikied "pocket"/"trade" to reinforce my memory of the
distinction. My copy of "Red Planet" is pocket sized, apparently but I
don't remember it having any reference to a distinctive Martian smell.
I may need to re-read it soon.

Oh, wait, was that in the Martian city, when they were saved?

>
>I have to replace a few others, that Door into Summer with the astrolabe
>on the cover, that was used when I got it in the seventies, and the cover

Different covers in UKland.
Probably different text, too.

>finally fell off. Same with Double Star, both books that weren't readily
>available at the new book store in the seventies here, so I had to buy at
>a used book store. I'm not sure they are in print now either, when I
>checked they seemed unavailable at the moment.
>
>But yes, I want the Heinleins in actual book form. Ebooks take up less
>space, but they aren't the same thing. indeed, spending so much time on
>the tablet, I'm thinking it's not a good thing to move to ebook reading,
>other issues aside, since I need a break from the screen. I saw a
>tempting offer about magazines in electronic form, I've mostly given up on
>magazines as they get expensive and have less content that I want, but I
>crave for magazines at the same time. This would be cheap, but more
>screen reading.

When I retired, I bought an e-reader as a toy. My use of it confirmed
my worst prejudices and biases against the format.
Ebooks are usually as expensive as the hardback equivalents if not
more expensive. Ebooks *frequently* do not have the entire series of a
multi-novel story. They may have books 3,5 and 7 but never book 1.
Ebooks are often crippled by DRM and anti-copy crap. Ebooks are rarely
inheritable. Ebooks are often only available for one machine type from
one supplier and in one "territory" due to idiotic, stupid, insane and
pre-stone-age legal restrictions.
It almost seems as though the publishers don't *want* us to buy their
bloody books.
E-publishers should, like Project Gutenberg, supply us with every
single book ever published, in every format currently used by any
machinery, cheaply and easily. Every publisher should supply every
book in every language. Anything else is just stupid.
And evil.
And DRM should be counted as a Crime Against Humanity and punished
with extreme prejudice.
Selling every book ever published at 10p/10cents per book would
garner them far more income than their current daft practices even
were they to totally remove all copy restrictions. At prices so low,
we wouldn't *bother* to steal them. Or to use DRM-removers just so we
can send a copy to our sister.

But publishers are run by and for lawyers who are too stupid to
breathe and chew gum at the same time.
They would have a litter of hedgehogs in breach if anyone seriously
proposed removing all DRM.
And removing regional and company restrictions on which volumes are
published where is just not inside their mental horizons.

I *HATE* e-publishers.
Though I do like the convenience of carrying thousands of books on
one slate.

I want them to offer a service where if you have, or buy, a
wood-based book you get the electronic one free. I want them to do
this for every book ever published.
It would cost them *nothing*.
It would cost the authors *nothing*.
It would cost the lawyers trillions. European trillions.
And I would finally consider my collection to be safe. For I would
dump the paper copies somewhere and live on the e-reader copy.

Which, of course, I would religiously back up.
Thrice.
At least.

Expansion: my scheme would cost the authors nothing because I am not
going to buy an e-book copy of "Red Planet" any time soon if ever. My
getting an e-copy because I have a paper copy would cost less than a
megabyte of bandwidth and that need not be *publisher* bandwidth as
their web host would absorb the drain. It wouldn't even cost storage
at the publisher's because they have electronic copies at hand even
when the book is out of print.
It is a tiny effort from the publishers for a vast reward for the
entire civilisation.
It could even change minds about how greedy, stupid, myopic and
unthinking they are.
Not that any such thing will ever happen outside Fantasy.
J.


>
> Michael

[Chris Zakes]

On Thu, 08 Jun 2017 20:55:24 +0100, an orbital mind-control laser

caused John <M...@the.keyboard> to write:

>On Thu, 08 Jun 2017 08:18:55 -0500, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 02:14:16 +0100, an orbital mind-control laser
>>caused John <M...@the.keyboard> to write:
>>
>>>On Fri, 02 Jun 2017 21:03:19 -0500, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>
>>(snip)
>>
>>>>I have paperbacks of all the novels as well. The cool thing about the
>>>>Virginia Edition is all the things that *aren't* in the novels: an
>>>>entire volume (750 pages worth) of his letters to and from John
>>>>Campbell, two more volumes of his letters to other people (such as the
>>>>one quoted above), movie and TV scripts, etc. It's not quite
>>>>everything the man ever wrote, but it's a sizeable chunk of it.
>>>>
>>>>And yeah, $1500.00 is a lot of money. My wife loves me very much.
>>>
>>> As did mine, but had I thought of spending that much on *books* ...
>>>she would have smiled and allowed me to do it.
>>>
>>> Anyone care to enlighten us off-Continenet peasants what the
>>>differences between the USAland and the International versions are and
>>>why it costs 300-bux more to buy from UKland?
>>
>>At a guess, it's the extra shipping costs for overseas. The set is 46
>>hardback books, in half a dozen fairly large boxes.
>
> That make some sense, thanks. However, why have two "editions", why
>not just add 300-bux postage?

I have no idea what the answer to that question is. I'd suggest asking
the folks who are selling the books.

> I've lifted boxes of books. I can well believe the Post Office would
>charge 300 dollars or more for carrying such things.
> Books are not light.
> Though they do illuminate.
>
>>
>>
>>> Also, is "2000" the *TOTAL* number printed or were there two thousand
>>>of each edition?
>>
>>I'm not quite sure what you're asking. There were 2000 sets of the
>>Virginia Edition produced (my set is listed an #477 of 2000) and you
>>can only buy the full, 46-volume set, not individual books.
>
> Are there 2000 US-edition and 2000-International edition. Or are
>there 2000 *total* and the two "versions" are just differentiated by
>cost?

Ah, I missed that in reading the original question. (But I still have
no idea what the answer might be.)

> If I buy one set for my house in UKland could I swap it for yours and
>neither of us would notice the difference?
> Did they print 4000 copies? 2000 for USAlia and another 2000 for the
>entire rest of the universe or are there only two thousand?
>
> Sorry, I thought it was a simple question.
> The reason I asked was copyright. The editions of USAlien books we
>get here are rarely the same as what you privileged few are allowed to
>purchase. Sometines even the names and covers are changed. So I was
>thinking that the "International Edition" might actually be a
>different object with different content, different covers and
>different stuff.

I expect that the differences are because the books are physically
produced and published on opposite sides of The Water. I have some
British editions of Heinlein and Terry Pratchett books: the cover art
is different and they use British spelling conventions--colour vs
color, etc--but I've never noticed any textual differences.

But I strongly doubt that whatever the "International Edition" is, it
has different content from what I have.

> If it's just the USAlien edition with added postage and customs dues
>then I am answered.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> I'm not really considering buying a copy. It would outlive me and
>>>I've no friend or relative to bequeath such a thing to.
>>
>>Bequeath it to a library? Maybe the local hospice? (Their reading
>>matter tends to run very heavily toward bestsellers and the occasional
>>romance novel, in my observation.)
>
> Not in UKland. Libraries here are not respected, books less so. I
>wouldn't donate tatty paperbacks to our Library.
> And there is no way I'd legacy such a valuable thing to any hospital.
>Those places don't even respect *patients*. All they want to do is to
>have you sign a DNR so they can shove you out the airlock and put
>another tick in another box.
> Anyway, the SF and science books in hospitals never get stolen so I
>doubt anyone bothers to read them.
>
> A personal, if I may? Would *you* bequeath your set to a local
>charity?
> *Any* charity?
> Knowing for a fact that the set would remain intact for less time
>than it took to unbox them.
> J.

If I knew beforehand that the charity wouldn't respect my wishes, I'd
find another charity. Or, more likely, leave the books to my kids, or
to a friend who would appreciate them.

[John]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 21:02:56 -0500, Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com>

I don't think that would profit me much. Large commercial enterprises
rarely seem to like to discuss pricing issues.

>
>
>> I've lifted boxes of books. I can well believe the Post Office would
>>charge 300 dollars or more for carrying such things.
>> Books are not light.
>> Though they do illuminate.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Also, is "2000" the *TOTAL* number printed or were there two thousand
>>>>of each edition?
>>>
>>>I'm not quite sure what you're asking. There were 2000 sets of the
>>>Virginia Edition produced (my set is listed an #477 of 2000) and you
>>>can only buy the full, 46-volume set, not individual books.
>>
>> Are there 2000 US-edition and 2000-International edition. Or are
>>there 2000 *total* and the two "versions" are just differentiated by
>>cost?
>
>Ah, I missed that in reading the original question. (But I still have
>no idea what the answer might be.)

Well, at least you tried. Thank you.

>
>
>> If I buy one set for my house in UKland could I swap it for yours and
>>neither of us would notice the difference?
>> Did they print 4000 copies? 2000 for USAlia and another 2000 for the
>>entire rest of the universe or are there only two thousand?
>>
>> Sorry, I thought it was a simple question.
>> The reason I asked was copyright. The editions of USAlien books we
>>get here are rarely the same as what you privileged few are allowed to
>>purchase. Sometines even the names and covers are changed. So I was
>>thinking that the "International Edition" might actually be a
>>different object with different content, different covers and
>>different stuff.
>
>I expect that the differences are because the books are physically
>produced and published on opposite sides of The Water.

Then there should be no postage, packing and customs additions so the
prices, in dollars, should be vaguely similar.
I suspect it's just one more "let's rip-off the furriner"
profiteering gambit.
Like telescopes and other stuff. They convert the dollar price into
the same *magnitude* in Sterling then add taxes, shipping, VAT, taxes,
postage, customs, service charges and VAT.
But I'm cynical.

> I have some
>British editions of Heinlein and Terry Pratchett books: the cover art
>is different and they use British spelling conventions--colour vs
>color, etc--but I've never noticed any textual differences.

I also have USAlien versions of books I have UKlander versions of.
Some of those *are* textually different. Often for no good reason.

>
>But I strongly doubt that whatever the "International Edition" is, it
>has different content from what I have.

I don't share the doubts, but I'm never likely to find out. I just
started this conversation in the hope that someone who knew might
respond. I don't think that will ever happen.
It was a long shot at best.

>
>
>> If it's just the USAlien edition with added postage and customs dues
>>then I am answered.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not really considering buying a copy. It would outlive me and
>>>>I've no friend or relative to bequeath such a thing to.
>>>
>>>Bequeath it to a library? Maybe the local hospice? (Their reading
>>>matter tends to run very heavily toward bestsellers and the occasional
>>>romance novel, in my observation.)
>>
>> Not in UKland. Libraries here are not respected, books less so. I
>>wouldn't donate tatty paperbacks to our Library.
>> And there is no way I'd legacy such a valuable thing to any hospital.
>>Those places don't even respect *patients*. All they want to do is to
>>have you sign a DNR so they can shove you out the airlock and put
>>another tick in another box.
>> Anyway, the SF and science books in hospitals never get stolen so I
>>doubt anyone bothers to read them.
>>
>> A personal, if I may? Would *you* bequeath your set to a local
>>charity?
>> *Any* charity?
>> Knowing for a fact that the set would remain intact for less time
>>than it took to unbox them.
>> J.
>
>If I knew beforehand that the charity wouldn't respect my wishes, I'd
>find another charity.

All UKlander charities are basically Philistine in nature. They don't
pay the till-girls enough to make them believers.
Okay, maybe they are believers in the *work* but certainly they are
never going to be Librarians or Archivists.
Even those who are won't be while doing the charity thing. Splitting
up a donation will earn them more money and save more lives or cure
more cancers so it's a *good* *thing*.
It just fails to appeal to my sense of historicity.

> Or, more likely, leave the books to my kids, or
>to a friend who would appreciate them.

I have neither of those. I did have one but she never read a single
book. This is not surprising when one considers that many of my books
outweighed her.
Four thousand million years of successful ancestors have come down to
me and I'm extinct.
All that effort for so little reward.
I sort of feel for them. :)

Thank you.
J.


>
> -Chris Zakes
> Texas