TMIAHM: Flat money? Fiat money?

[Mike Dworetsky]

In a UK edition of The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, (Gollancz SF Masterworks,
London, 2001) which is otherwise fairly well proofread and printed, Manny's
description of Luna National Dollars, issued shortly after the declaration
of embargo, is that it is unbacked by anything and gradually inflates
because it is "flat money". I think this (incorrect) phrase is also used
earlier in describing Authority scrip or some other currency.

I'm pretty sure the correct wording ought to be "fiat money". There are
numerous explanations and discussions of this term on the web.

Is there anyone with a first edition who can confirm this? My impression is
that the typesetter needed better spectacles and the proofreader needed more
than a microsoft spellchecker.

--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)

[N5DWI]

I believe both "fiat" and "flat" money are in use.

These terms describe different attributes, but sometimes (often).
both meanings can apply to a particular currency.

Properly, "fiat" (Let there be) describes money with no backing;
and "flat" describes money that lies flat, i.e. paper money,
whether or not it is backed, i.e. gold or silver certificates
such as circulated in the US until the 1930s and 1970s,
respectively.



Mike Dworetsky scripsit:

[Mike Dworetsky]

N5DWI wrote:
> I believe both "fiat" and "flat" money are in use.
>
> These terms describe different attributes, but sometimes (often).
> both meanings can apply to a particular currency.
>
> Properly, "fiat" (Let there be) describes money with no backing;
> and "flat" describes money that lies flat, i.e. paper money,
> whether or not it is backed, i.e. gold or silver certificates
> such as circulated in the US until the 1930s and 1970s,
> respectively.

Thanks, interesting, but...

I don't want to pick a fight, but most reference searches on line for a
definition of "flat money" ask if you meant to type "fiat money". And I was
really asking the question because I would like to know if Heinlein
originally wrote "flat" or "fiat". Heinlein's description of the new lunar
currency fits the usual definition of fiat currency very well. Fiat
currency can also include base metal coins which, while "flat", are not
paper.

Heinlein described it as starting at a fixed rate slightly less than the
(gold-backed) Hong Kong Luna dollar and losing a little value each day,
especially while the Lunar Free State was under attack by the Federated
Nations navy. And much of it would have to be in the form of bank credit,
not cash.

>
>
>
> Mike Dworetsky scripsit:
>> In a UK edition of The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, (Gollancz SF
>> Masterworks, London, 2001) which is otherwise fairly well proofread
>> and printed, Manny's description of Luna National Dollars, issued
>> shortly after the declaration of embargo, is that it is unbacked by
>> anything and gradually inflates because it is "flat money". I think
>> this (incorrect) phrase is also used earlier in describing Authority
>> scrip or some other currency.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the correct wording ought to be "fiat money". There
>> are numerous explanations and discussions of this term on the web.
>>
>> Is there anyone with a first edition who can confirm this? My
>> impression is that the typesetter needed better spectacles and the
>> proofreader needed more than a microsoft spellchecker.

[N5DWI]

You might want to check out the three economists
Heinlein admired, to wit:

Ludwig von Mises
Robert LeFevre
Murray Rothbard

and on whom he based the monetary ideas expressed
in TMIAHM.

By the way, speaking of base metal coins,
the US penny's metal value is now more than
the monetary value of the coin.
But only marginally so - , it wouldn't be
too profitable to melt them down. :-)

regards,
j

Mike Dworetsky scripsit:

[NoneSuch]

On 2014-08-22 08:16:38 +0000, Mike Dworetsky said:

> I'm pretty sure the correct wording ought to be "fiat money".

I'm pretty sure you're right. I do not recall ever seeing the word
'flat' used with regard to money.

> Is there anyone with a first edition who can confirm this?

I'm not a collector of such things, but all the versions of Moon that I
have read use the word 'fiat'. Currently, I have an e-book which shows
two such occurances. The Virginia Edition version which I have access
to also uses the word 'fiat'.

[Mike Dworetsky]

Thanks for that. If these other versions have "fiat" it seems a good bet
that only the edition I have uses "flat". For all I know it was originally
"fiat" when the printer set it, but some proofreader changed it, thinking he
knew better.

[Mike Dworetsky]

N5DWI wrote:
> You might want to check out the three economists
> Heinlein admired, to wit:
>
> Ludwig von Mises
> Robert LeFevre
> Murray Rothbard
>
> and on whom he based the monetary ideas expressed
> in TMIAHM.

Because a lot of the events in the novel parallel the American revolution,
the creation of fiat money in the form of the "Continental Dollar" had
similarities to the Lunar dollar.

[Chris Zakes]

That bit is at the beginning of chapter 22, for anyone else who wants
to check. My Berkley Medallion 1968 12th printing paperback (the kind
of greenish cover whith the A-frame structures on the lunar surface
and the small globular ships) says "fiat". So does my VE copy, based
on the 1966 G.P. Putnam's edition.

I agree that fiat makes a lot more sense than flat. I call typo.

-Chris Zakes
Texas
--

The only thing that preserved religious freedom in the United States was not the
First Amendment and was not tolerance... but was solely a Mexican standoff
between rival religious sects, each sect intolerant, each sect the sole custodian of
the "One True Faith"-but each sect a minority that gave lip service to keep its
own "One True Faith" from being persecuted by all the other "True Faiths."

-Maureen Johnson Smith in "To Sail Beyond the Sunset"
by Robert Heinlein

[MajorOz]

On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 7:27:32 AM UTC-5, Chris Zakes wrote:

> I agree that fiat makes a lot more sense than flat. I call typo.

Me, too.

In each or my various editions, it is an " i ".

[Simon Jester UK]

In my NEL paperback, it is also "fiat".

[tian]

On 08/22/2014 03:38 PM, N5DWI wrote:
> You might want to check out the three economists
> Heinlein admired, to wit:
>
> Ludwig von Mises
> Robert LeFevre
> Murray Rothbard
>
> and on whom he based the monetary ideas expressed
> in TMIAHM.
>
> By the way, speaking of base metal coins,
> the US penny's metal value is now more than
> the monetary value of the coin.
> But only marginally so - , it wouldn't be
> too profitable to melt them down. :-)
>

I still find them on the street, and I drop one in the pink piggy bank
every now and then. Try not to do it in this forum though.
I figure flat money or fiat money, coins fall in the bank the same way.
It's one of those "the laws of physics must be obeyed" kind of things.

--
Tian
http://tian.greens.org
Latest change: Added a writeup on San Jose Bike Party's Rainbow Ride.
There's an AMOK TIME pin on a Colorado quarter in my home.

[tian]

Flat and fiat do not look at all different on the page.

[Mike Dworetsky]

I came across another Heinlein reference to "fiat" money in Time Enough for
Love, and Heinlein's own Lazarus Long explanation, which I think is a
clincher for the implication that he wrote "fiat money" in "Mistress" and a
typesetter or proofreader changed it in this edition.

[Chris Zakes]

On Fri, 10 Jul 2015 08:52:09 +0100, an orbital mind-control laser

caused "Mike Dworetsky" <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> to write:

It's "fiat money" in my Virginia Edition copy. I'd be inclined to call
that definitive.

-Chris Zakes
Texas
--

GNU Terry Pratchett

[a425couple]

"Chris Zakes" <dont...@gmail.com> wrote in message...

Sure.
In addition, "fiat money" is a recognized description that
matches what Heinlein was talking about here.

Fiat Money Definition | Investopedia
www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp
Investopedia
Currency that a government has declared to be legal tender, but is not
backed by a physical commodity. The value of fiat money is derived
from the relationship ...

Fiat money - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money
Wikipedia
Fiat money is currency which derives its value from government regulation or
law.
The term derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done", "it shall be"). It
differs from ...
‎Commodity money - ‎Iraqi Swiss dinar - ‎Money creation - ‎Hard currency

Fiat Currency: A History of Failure - Daily Reckoning
dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/
Fiat Money -Toilet Paper Money. The history of fiat money, to put it kindly,
has been one of failure. In fact, EVERY fiat currency since the Romans first
began the ...

What is Fiat Money? definition and meaning
www.investorwords.com/1928/fiat_money.html
Definition of fiat money: Money which has no intrinsic value and cannot be
redeemed for specie or any commodity, but is made legal tender through...

Where as, "flat money" is just considered a mistype,
that takes you back to above.

[Eric S. Harris]

On 8/22/2014 5:38 PM, N5DWI wrote:
> You might want to check out the three economists
> Heinlein admired, to wit:
>
> Ludwig von Mises
> Robert LeFevre
> Murray Rothbard
>
> and on whom he based the monetary ideas expressed
> in TMIAHM.
>
> By the way, speaking of base metal coins,
> the US penny's metal value is now more than
> the monetary value of the coin.
> But only marginally so - , it wouldn't be
> too profitable to melt them down. :-)
>
> regards,
> j

I'm pretty sure that's not the case. The US Mint's website has for some
time made it clear that it's a crime to sell cents and nickels for
scrap, or to export them. (A law-passed-by-Congress crime? A
we-are-in-charge-of-the-money crime? I dunno.)

That almost certainly was the case when this was posted.

There's so little copper in cents now that I'm not sure a scrap dealer
would accept them, anyway. :-) Maybe as zinc, or whatever metal is
inside that colorful candy shell.

Were I not so lazy, I'd go look it up. -Eric

--
Change the W to a Y before replying

[Michael Black]

On Mon, 20 Jul 2015, Eric S. Harris wrote:

> On 8/22/2014 5:38 PM, N5DWI wrote:
>> You might want to check out the three economists
>> Heinlein admired, to wit:
>>
>> Ludwig von Mises
>> Robert LeFevre
>> Murray Rothbard
>>
>> and on whom he based the monetary ideas expressed
>> in TMIAHM.
>>
>> By the way, speaking of base metal coins,
>> the US penny's metal value is now more than
>> the monetary value of the coin.
>> But only marginally so - , it wouldn't be
>> too profitable to melt them down. :-)
>>
>> regards,
>> j
>
> I'm pretty sure that's not the case. The US Mint's website has for some time
> made it clear that it's a crime to sell cents and nickels for scrap, or to
> export them. (A law-passed-by-Congress crime? A
> we-are-in-charge-of-the-money crime? I dunno.)
>
> That almost certainly was the case when this was posted.
>
> There's so little copper in cents now that I'm not sure a scrap dealer would
> accept them, anyway. :-) Maybe as zinc, or whatever metal is inside that
> colorful candy shell.
>

Canada did away with pennies a few years ago, if you're doing a cash
transaction you round it off to the closest five cents.

But even though there was no longer much copper in the Canadian penny, it
cost more than a penny to make, I seem to recall something like 2cents or
close to it.

The real problem was that the Canadian mint had to keep making pennies.
They'd just go out of circulation, people not wanting to carry them around
and use them. I'd accumulate them till I got a decent amount of money, at
least ten dollars but sometimes $30, and either donate them to some
non-profit, or cash them in at the bank. But apprently many just kept
hoarding them, unwilling to do the work to get them back in circulation.

So the mint had to keep making new pennies to offset the ones lost, and
that was costly.

It seems to work okay without the penny. I kept a jar around for a bit,
but cashed them in recently, I wanted the cash so I gave up on the idea of
having a supply to unload at some point in the future.

Micahel

[Nollaig MacKenzie]

On 2015.07.21 18:17:14,
the amazing <et...@ncf.ca> declared:

> Canada did away with pennies a few years ago, if you're doing a cash
> transaction you round it off to the closest five cents.

I'd be quite happy if we'd get rid of the nickel, too.


--
Nollaig MacKenzie
nol...@nollaig.ca