E-TNK is no longer available.
Christian Pinder
I received an email from David Braben today. He has requested that I
remove all Elite materials, E-TNK (binaries & source) and all
derivatives from my website. David is one of the copyright holders of
Elite and is quite within his rights to request this. I am, of
course, full complying with this request and have removed E-TNK from
the NewKind website. I must also ask anyone who may have E-TNK, or
one of it's ports/derivatives, available for download to remove it
from their website.
--
Regards,
Christian.
http://www.newkind.co.uk
Trev Lucas
Damm
Now that is a shame.
I for one would like to thank Christian for a great game while it
lasted. It's a pity the it came to this. Anyhow good luck with
Darkness Falls. At least that's got F**k All to do with Braben.
--
trev dot lucas at btopenworld dot com
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
-- Dean Martin
Phil
<out.of...@error.com> wrote:
>Now that is a shame.
To put it mildly. :-(
It was only a matter of time though. :-(
Still, one thing puzzles me - why did DB wait so long before asking
for TNK to be removed?
I mean, for heavens' sake - it's been out for long enough!
I just wish DB could be as 'open' with his code as Ian Bell is. Still,
I guess Mr Braben has more money 'invested' in Elite (from his point
of view at least?) what with developing Frontier and assorted
follow-ups.
It's a shame that there is such acrimony over a game that has brought
many hours of gaming pleasure to such a lot of people (hundreds of
thousands? millions?).
Why can't DB just let TNK be licensed in some form (heck, I for one
would pay a modicum sum to be allowed to play it on my
PC/handheld/whatever).
>I for one would like to thank Christian for a great game while it
>lasted.
Same here - he has put some sterling work into this for which many of
us are extremely grateful. Thank you Christian! :-)))
>It's a pity the it came to this. Anyhow good luck with
>Darkness Falls. At least that's got F**k All to do with Braben.
Ahhh, but has it?
Surely there is enough Elite related material in there for DB to ask
for that to be withdrawn too?
Phil
Lucian Wischik
>I received an email from David Braben today. He has requested that I
>remove all Elite materials, E-TNK (binaries & source) and all
>derivatives from my website.
"So it goes."
Seems like canny timing. Leaving it be for ages while there were no
alternatives and then, just as it's finished and DF is on the cusp,
transferring over to that. Well, I look forward to DF even if it lacks
larvian tree grubs and hoopy casinos.
--
Lu
Rocky 1980
"Lucian Wischik" <lu...@wischik.com> wrote in message
news:d16g4vs51lukm8d5m...@4ax.com...
I smell a rat ..., DB is up to somthing he must be ........
Trev Lucas
<snip>
> Surely there is enough Elite related material in there for DB to ask
> for that to be withdrawn too?
As far as I am understand it, part of the initial download was the
following file:
"eu001.zip (423K) : contains the Elite universe data and model files."
This would seem to have been withdrawn also. How ever the Main source
code contains no elite related material and is being built from the
ground up by Christian Pinder and Ian Bell. As always it's up to the
authors to confirm this though.
Kelpie
> >Darkness Falls. At least that's got F**k All to do with Braben.
>
> Ahhh, but has it?
>
> Surely there is enough Elite related material in there for DB to ask
> for that to be withdrawn too?
>
>
My understanding of DF is that it is modular, at the moment the download has
some Elite ships (the ones Ian Bell created I think) but those could easily
be any other types of ship or galaxy.
So in the end unless DB has the copyright on space trading type games then
its pretty safe IMO.
--
Kelpie
Frantic
>On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:56:30 +0000 (UTC), Trev Lucas
><out.of...@error.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Now that is a shame.
>
>To put it mildly. :-(
>
>It was only a matter of time though. :-(
>
>Still, one thing puzzles me - why did DB wait so long before asking
>for TNK to be removed?
>
>I mean, for heavens' sake - it's been out for long enough!
>
>I just wish DB could be as 'open' with his code as Ian Bell is. Still,
>I guess Mr Braben has more money 'invested' in Elite (from his point
>of view at least?) what with developing Frontier and assorted
>follow-ups.
>
>It's a shame that there is such acrimony over a game that has brought
>many hours of gaming pleasure to such a lot of people (hundreds of
>thousands? millions?).
>
>Why can't DB just let TNK be licensed in some form (heck, I for one
>would pay a modicum sum to be allowed to play it on my
>PC/handheld/whatever).
The daft thing is those using handhelds can still legally use emulated
versions. All TNK is is a ported BBC version with open source.
FDL are just trying to monopolise Elite on handhelds. I for one refuse
to allow hardware to dictate what I can use where. I don't like being
ripped off.
Elite is already free to play. It is wrong to say that just because a
new platform exists, you can force people to pay money to play
something they already play for free.
Who/what's next then? I still want to see E4 one day, but if FDL push
everyone into a boycott, I'll be right behind it.
>>I for one would like to thank Christian for a great game while it
>>lasted.
>
>Same here - he has put some sterling work into this for which many of
>us are extremely grateful. Thank you Christian! :-)))
He brought Elite to those that had none. He worked just to see a
smiley face from a happy gamer occasionally, as we all do. Onya
Christian.
>>It's a pity the it came to this. Anyhow good luck with
>>Darkness Falls. At least that's got F**k All to do with Braben.
>
>Ahhh, but has it?
>
>Surely there is enough Elite related material in there for DB to ask
>for that to be withdrawn too?
Not to mention a zillion other projects.
--
Frantic - GalNET Deputy Chief Administrator
The Galactic Network of Explorers and Traders.
http://www.galnet.org
Christian Pinder
DB's email was actually directed at both myself *and Ian*. I guess
that means DB wants Ian to remove Elite copyrighted material from his
site as well... A distinct case of Deja Vu coming up here. :-(
Not sure what Ian's response will be.
Rocky 1980
I think that DB has gone to far this time, was is he playing at, is he
trying to kill off the elite community. Or is it something to do with the
fact that Ian Bell had a hand in Darkness Falls, mmm. I thank that their is
some very raw nerves on DB`s part. Reading between the lines I think it goes
something like this
DB "fuck off Ian Elite is all mine, mine I tell you (mad laughter) I want to
keep the fans hanging for E4 so they will have to keep checking my site and
read about the shity games I am marking (more mad Mega lo manic laughter)...
Well that's what I think, or is it just the Novocain warring off from being
at the dentist.
Krzysztof Kania
EdzUp
> that means DB wants Ian to remove Elite copyrighted material from his
> site as well... A distinct case of Deja Vu coming up here. :-(
>
> Not sure what Ian's response will be.
I can see another legal problem arising here seeing as Ian's name is
plastered all over Elite as well as Brabens. Maybe Frontier Developments Ltd
should post on here to give a consise reason why it cant be recreated, I for
one would love to hear it as I too am making an Elite based game (Elite
Multiplayer) and I would like to continue developing it. If it came to the
crunch I would just whack together a load of new ships up the gfx anti and
whack in a unlimited galaxy (like in SF2000 also by me :) ) with the
multiplayer added to spice the game up.
Again its a shame its come to this and I would love to hear thier reasoning
behind it.
My questions to DB would be:
1) Does this cater for every Elite like game (Elite Multiplayer etc).
2) What about all the Elite fan sites out there, do they have to remove
thier stuff too?
If the answer to 2 is yes then DB has in one fell swoop killed off
Elite/Frontier in its entirety. Nobody want to play a pay per play game they
want Elite. When everyone requests from Frontier Developments for a version
of Elite with multiplayer they want Elite with multiplayer not Frontier with
multiplayer. Its a dark day for Elite indeed :|
-EdzUp
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 27/01/03
Christian Pinder
email DB sent to me below. I know some people will consider that to
be bad form but it effects the community and so I believe the
community have a right to know what's going on. The email from DB was
sent to Ian Bell and I and directed at both of us, it was also copied
to a couple of people within FDL and one person at Marjaq. I have
removed the email headers to protect peoples email addresses. My
response is given below. I do not how Ian will respond.
DB's email...
-----
Your web sites appear to assert that Elite is in the public domain,
and can be freely distributed. This is not and has never been the
case. It appears there is even source code on your sites which is my
joint copyright, and as Ian Bell is well aware I have at no point
agreed to freeware distribution; quite the opposite. Shareware is
something I would consider, if done correctly.
Ian Bell sold his exclusive rights to sequels to Elite to me in
September 1988. Further, I understand Ian Bell sold his remaining
rights in Elite 1 some time ago.
Please remove all Elite sources, downloadable versions of Elite, and
content derived from them.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
David
------
My repsonse....
------
Hello,
>Your web sites appear to assert that Elite is in the public domain,
>and can be freely distributed. This is not and has never been the
>case.
I cannot find anywhere on my website that asserts that Elite is in the
public domain but I apologise if any of it could be read as such.
Your own company website states (in the Elite FAQ)...
---
7. Is it legal to download Elite from the net?
Elite was written as joint copyright by Ian Bell and myself. I would
like to make Elite available as shareware, but this requires
permission of the other copyright holder. A third party has claimed
that Ian Bell has sold his rights in Elite to them but Ian has not yet
confirmed this. The end result is it is not legal, but I do not mind
this as long as the copyright messages are intact, and it is not done
for commercial gain, but be warned as the other copyright holder may
object.
---
The Elite materials that I have on my site do have the copyright
messages intact (where such messages originally existed) and is not
for commercial gain (quite the opposite, it costs me money).
Could you please clarify if you are now withdrawing the statement made
on your website?
>It appears there is even source code on your sites which is my joint
>copyright, and as Ian Bell is well aware I have at no point agreed to
>freeware distribution; quite the opposite.
There were two lots of source code on my site, both have now been
removed. I had copies of the original Elite source (c) Acornsoft and
a C version which I translated from the 6502 code (which as previously
stated was (c) Acornsoft).
>Shareware is something I would consider, if done correctly.
I'm more than happy to comply with any requirements you might have and
freely offer my assistance.
>Ian Bell sold his exclusive rights to sequels to Elite to me in
>September 1988.
I have not been distributing any copies of Frontier or Frontier:First
Encounters.
>Further, I understand Ian Bell sold his remaining rights in Elite 1
>some time ago.
I have never asked Ian for permission to distribute Elite materials.
Whether Ian has or has not sold his rights is none of my business.
>Please remove all Elite sources, downloadable versions of Elite, and
>content derived from them.
As requested this has been done. I have also contacted other people
that have my version of Elite (and derivatives) available and asked
them to remove the offending material.
It saddens me that you feel you must remove all traces of Elite from
the Internet. It was one of my favourite games and is a true homage
to yours and Ian's skills as programmers and game designers. By
creating Elite - The New Kind (E-TNK) I hoped to further that tribute
and indeed many new Elite players have been born because of it. I
cannot fathom your reasons for wanting the removal of E-TNK as it
costs you nothing and increases the fan base for Elite 4.
If you wish to discuss this matter further then please contact me.
I'm more than happy to discuss the situation with you, by which ever
medium you prefer (a face to face meeting if you wish).
Regards,
Christian Pinder.
----
Ceowulf
news:qe3g4v4jr28pb316m...@4ax.com...
And so DB continues to lose fans.
The man is an idiot, why shoot yourself in the foot? TNK is free advertising
for E4. Its not going to reduce his market, it might even increase it!
Ceo-
Frantic
<chri...@newkind-remove-this.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>As requested this has been done. I have also contacted other people
>that have my version of Elite (and derivatives) available and asked
>them to remove the offending material.
>
>It saddens me that you feel you must remove all traces of Elite from
>the Internet. It was one of my favourite games and is a true homage
>to yours and Ian's skills as programmers and game designers. By
>creating Elite - The New Kind (E-TNK) I hoped to further that tribute
>and indeed many new Elite players have been born because of it. I
>cannot fathom your reasons for wanting the removal of E-TNK as it
>costs you nothing and increases the fan base for Elite 4.
Hear hear, my sentiments exactly. TNK and JJFFE have provided the
ability for kids to play Elite, thus generating a new generation of
fan base that otherwise would not exist.
These tributes are in no way a match for modern games in terms of
graphics and sound etc, but mainly provide access to the genre that is
Elite/Frontier. Elite 4 if it is ever released (and how well we trust
that concept now), will in no way be hindered in sales by these
tributes. Modern graphics and engines, with the abilitis new computers
give for producing realtime masses of realistic logic mean that Elite
4 will be a massive improvement over FFE.
If Elite 4 was merely a mildly improved version of Elite or FFE, then
I could see some reason for concern. Why pay for something you pretty
much already have? I would assume, however, that freely available
Elite version would be akin to shareware version of a full release of
Elite 4 (even less so), and thus encourage gamers to pay to upgrade
and get the latest full game.
I can only assume there is a real reason for all this aside from
stupidity. Who get's an email next? We all host tonnes of content.
Don't Panic has a similar aim to TNK and JJFFE, that of making various
versions more freely accessible across platforms. I count 7 Elite
versions in my start menu, and that doesn't include PC Elite plus (yet
[I made it to Elite twice in that already])
Jan Knutar
> I can only assume there is a real reason for all this aside from
> stupidity. Who get's an email next? We all host tonnes of content.
> Don't Panic has a similar aim to TNK and JJFFE, that of making various
> versions more freely accessible across platforms. I count 7 Elite
> versions in my start menu, and that doesn't include PC Elite plus (yet
> [I made it to Elite twice in that already])
My theory is that FDL wants to get a piece of the embedded/mobile
platforms, suchs as pocketPC, Palm, etc... Seems to me that ETNK was left
alone up until people started making versions that run on mobile
platforms...
Barry Barcrest
Also that mail from the supposed BRABEN sounds like it was written by a 15
year old kid. It doesn't sound like the mails he has sent out before? Are
you 100% sure it's from him and the header isn't spoofed. Braben would not
have mentioned shareware either as the palm version of ELITE was proposed as
shareware to Braben apperntly but he said NO. It's all a bit dubios to be
honest ENK has been around for almost 18 months now, why would he request it
be pulled now? Ians site is full of elite stuff and they are not ports or
re-writes but the original versions...
We need postings from Braben and Bell on this really.
Lucian Wischik
>The email from DB was sent to Ian Bell and I
Aargh! I can understand you're irritated by the actions, but that's no
excuse to mangle grammar in such a horrible way! You don't write "sent
to I", so don't write "sent to Ian and I" either!
Sorry. Very rude of me to criticise grammar. But this mistake gets
under my skin.
--
Lucian
Christian Pinder
wrote:
>My theory is that FDL wants to get a piece of the embedded/mobile
>platforms, suchs as pocketPC, Palm, etc... Seems to me that ETNK was left
>alone up until people started making versions that run on mobile
>platforms...
The only mobile game FDL has released so far is DarXide. Are they
saying that it can't compete with a 20 year old game?
It baffles me as to why DB is targetting Ian's website as well (after
all the bad press last time). Is Speccy Elite running under emulation
too much competition?
Lucian Wischik
>My theory is that FDL wants to get a piece of the embedded/mobile
>platforms, suchs as pocketPC, Palm, etc... Seems to me that ETNK was left
>alone up until people started making versions that run on mobile
>platforms...
Good point. That seems VERY likely. This news comes -- what -- one
week after pocketPC elite?
--
Lu
Christian Pinder
<barc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Also that mail from the supposed BRABEN sounds like it was written by a 15
>year old kid. It doesn't sound like the mails he has sent out before?
How do you know? Have you received any emails from him before?
>Are you 100% sure it's from him and the header isn't spoofed.
Yes, I am 100% sure. The email headers are valid and check out, I'm
not that daft. If someone was going to spoof an email to me they
wouldn't copy it to David Walsh would they?
>Braben would not have mentioned shareware either as the palm version of
>ELITE was proposed as shareware to Braben apperntly but he said NO.
The mention of shareware is because of the Elite Club. Frontier and
FFE have been released as shareware. DB has previously stated (check
his Elite FAQ) that he would like to release the Elite binaries as
shareware.
I'm well aware of the PalmOS saga as it was Ian and I that sorted out
the publisher etc etc. That proposal may have been turned down
because FDL do not want a PalmOS version of Elite no matter what
mechanism it is released by.
>It's all a bit dubios to be honest ENK has been around for almost 18 months now,
You're a bit out... it's actually been around for over 3 years.
>why would he request it be pulled now?
I don't know, you'll have to ask him.
>Ians site is full of elite stuff and they are not ports or re-writes but the
>original versions...
And DB wants those removed as well. The email was to Ian as well as
myself.
>We need postings from Braben and Bell on this really.
AFAIK Ian hasn't read AFE for a long time. David Braben hasn't posted
for quite a while either.
If you don't believe that I'm telling the truth then I can't really
see how I can convince you. You are, of course, more than welcome to
email David Braben and ask him yourself. I'd be interested in knowing
what his reply was.
Christian Pinder
wrote:
>Sorry. Very rude of me to criticise grammar. But this mistake gets
>under my skin.
Me fail English? That's unpossible.
Jan Knutar
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 01:56:48 +0200, Jan Knutar <shado...@yahoo.se>
> wrote:
>
>>My theory is that FDL wants to get a piece of the embedded/mobile
>>platforms, suchs as pocketPC, Palm, etc... Seems to me that ETNK was left
>>alone up until people started making versions that run on mobile
>>platforms...
>
> The only mobile game FDL has released so far is DarXide. Are they
> saying that it can't compete with a 20 year old game?
Well, on mobile phones even tetris, 'snake' and minesweeper are competitive
;-) (less so now after most devices support Java)
> It baffles me as to why DB is targetting Ian's website as well (after
> all the bad press last time). Is Speccy Elite running under emulation
> too much competition?
Indeed... I'm wondering if FD got a legal department all of the sudden, and
their inhuman staff of said department is looking for things to pick on to
seem useful...
Barry Barcrest
got your mail from. I have also had mails from him before and other cease
and desist mails have been posted on the web. Still the big question is why
you pulled the new kind stuff of your forum a day or so before this
happened?
"Christian Pinder" <chri...@newkind-remove-this.co.uk> wrote in message
news:odgg4vg8jeumbm0d2...@4ax.com...
Frantic
Hate to break netiquette and reply just to say LOL :)
Paul Roberts
news:0rqlh-...@breadbin.mine.nu...
Mmm. I never released my own Pocket PC conversion, PocketElite, because I
knew of FDL's interest in mobile platforms and thought that they'd just
(quite understandably) ask me to remove it. I didn't envisage it snowballing
like this, though :-)
Or maybe Jon Welch's Pocket PC version has nothing to do with FDL's move,
and there are bigger plans involved than we realise.
Oh well. At least it's something new to talk about in here besides the usual
"Will <brag>my new monstermegamachine</brag> be powerful enough to run Elite
4???"
--
Paul Roberts
email: pa...@pwroberts.com
http://www.m3fe.com/
Christian Pinder
<barc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Still the big question is why you pulled the new kind stuff
>of your forum a day or so before this happened?
I've heard some conspiracy theorists before but you take the biscuit.
Do you wear tin foil on your head so that the Government can't control
you?
Okay, I confess. Ian Bell & David Braben don't really exist. It was
me that wrote Elite all those years ago but being camera shy I wrote
under the pen name of Bell & Braben and hired two actors the play the
roles. Unfortunately, as time went on, it became increasingly
difficult to get both the actors together at the same time (Geoff, the
actor that plays David Braben, became semi-famous after his bit part
in a Hovis advert. Tom, the actor that plays Ian Bell, now runs a
gift shop in Torquay). I then struck on the brilliant idea of having
them fall out so that joint appearances wouldn't be necessary. Every
now and again, when I want some cheap entertainment or free publicity
I concoct a big argument between them. I used to post to
alt.fan.elite pretending to be them but now I find it easier just to
pretend I've had emails from them.
The above is, of course, sarcasm (thought'd I better just point that
out :-)
Paul Roberts
> Christian Pinder wrote:
> > It baffles me as to why DB is targetting Ian's website as well (after
> > all the bad press last time). Is Speccy Elite running under emulation
> > too much competition?
>
> Indeed... I'm wondering if FD got a legal department all of the sudden,
and
> their inhuman staff of said department is looking for things to pick on to
> seem useful...
>
They've been speaking to the Rockforth Legal Academy. It's a few years yet
before it gets destroyed...
killermike
>
> The daft thing is those using handhelds can still legally use emulated
> versions. All TNK is is a ported BBC version with open source.
>
Since when was this legal? I admit that it is something of a grey area
if you bought the original game, copied the files to another platform
and then ran the program under emulation.
Barry Barcrest
"EdzUp" <ed...@edzup.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b299ge$h2n$1...@venus.btinternet.com...
> My questions to DB would be:
> 1) Does this cater for every Elite like game (Elite Multiplayer etc).
> 2) What about all the Elite fan sites out there, do they have to remove
> thier stuff too?
>
> If the answer to 2 is yes then DB has in one fell swoop killed off
> Elite/Frontier in its entirety. Nobody want to play a pay per play game
they
> want Elite. When everyone requests from Frontier Developments for a
version
> of Elite with multiplayer they want Elite with multiplayer not Frontier
with
> multiplayer. Its a dark day for Elite indeed :|
I doubt he could stop you using all elite materials as some stuff isn't his,
the following are what I can see as being o.k. or in the grey area...
The Trade Items - 100% fine
Ship Names - Well 100% fine if you drop the Mk as they are snake names,
other wise Braben wouldn't be able to use the eagle, and what about the
shelby cobra?
Ship Models - Well some anyway. The stations and Cargo canister are
geometric shapes and are o.k. it gets vaugue on the others depending on how
much you changed them, Braben use a wheel space station in Frontier but did
he get permission first it's in 2001 space oddessy. The BBC Elite 2 ships
are Bells and the Archie ships are not Brabens either. Niether is the Wolf
MKii. That should be enough to get you up and running.
Music - Some music is public domain, the docking music was also a 2001 thing
however they didn't own it :)... Ride of the valkyries is o.k. as are many
others he's used.
Planet names - Use real ones, the descriptions are random so just change the
txt around "Hoopy Casinos" might be Brabens but "Loopy Casinos" isn't. How
can he claim to own the copyright on Tree Grubs???
It comes down to influence by or copied at the end of the day. Add a radar
sweep to the scanner, it would look cooler and should be changed enough to
not get you in trouble. I'm sure you can thing up even more interesting ways
to work around this small issue.
Frantic
Even these emulatable versions may become illegal to use for free now
thanks to DB. But if you own the game, and the machine where the roms
came from for the emulator, you can use it wherever you want.
It's like websites that try to disable right clicks to prevent you
from seeing the html source. They have already sent you the html
source as you are viewing the page, it's your choice how you view that
information. Most choose a browser.
I'm off to download everything while I still can.
Frantic
<barc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I doubt he could stop you using all elite materials as some stuff isn't his,
>the following are what I can see as being o.k. or in the grey area...
>The Trade Items - 100% fine
>Ship Names - Well 100% fine if you drop the Mk as they are snake names,
>other wise Braben wouldn't be able to use the eagle, and what about the
>shelby cobra?
>Ship Models - Well some anyway. The stations and Cargo canister are
>geometric shapes and are o.k. it gets vaugue on the others depending on how
>much you changed them, Braben use a wheel space station in Frontier but did
>he get permission first it's in 2001 space oddessy. The BBC Elite 2 ships
>are Bells and the Archie ships are not Brabens either. Niether is the Wolf
>MKii. That should be enough to get you up and running.
>Music - Some music is public domain, the docking music was also a 2001 thing
>however they didn't own it :)... Ride of the valkyries is o.k. as are many
>others he's used.
>Planet names - Use real ones, the descriptions are random so just change the
>txt around "Hoopy Casinos" might be Brabens but "Loopy Casinos" isn't. How
>can he claim to own the copyright on Tree Grubs???
>
>It comes down to influence by or copied at the end of the day. Add a radar
>sweep to the scanner, it would look cooler and should be changed enough to
>not get you in trouble. I'm sure you can thing up even more interesting ways
>to work around this small issue.
>
Elite itself was largely based on the rpg game Traveller. Jameson
predates Elite, though with slightly different spelling.
Tribbles? Blatant rip off.
As for 2001, well, if you took your laptop, sat down in front of
Arthur C Clarke and docked an Adder to a wheel type station, I'm sure
he'd have a few words. Stanley Kubrik might have stronger words to say
about it.
John Mackay
that get circulated via email. Or some dog poo....
John M
Stuart Wilson
"John Mackay" <n...@email.thanks> wrote in message
news:b2aifo$kv1$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> We could all send FDL a bag of rice, like one of those government protests
> that get circulated via email. Or some dog poo....
Or why not something equally puerile and silly like emailing him your
downloaded FE2/FFE saying "Okay, you can have it back if that's your
attitude."
Trev Lucas
> Or why not something equally puerile and silly like emailing him
> your downloaded FE2/FFE saying "Okay, you can have it back if that's
> your attitude."
Hmm, good idea. I must be puerile and silly but I'm just off to do
that now.
Via anonymous remailer of course.
--
trev dot lucas at btopenworld dot com
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
-- Dean Martin
Neil Hopkins
<barc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>Planet names - Use real ones, the descriptions are random so just change the
>txt around "Hoopy Casinos" might be Brabens but "Loopy Casinos" isn't. How
>can he claim to own the copyright on Tree Grubs???
Wasn't "Hoopy" a description from the Hitch Hikers Guide to the
Galaxy, anyway?
--
neil h.
Spike : Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers, bollocks, Oh God - I'm English!
Frantic
<out.of...@error.com> wrote:
>Stuart Wilson wrote:
>
>
>> Or why not something equally puerile and silly like emailing him
>> your downloaded FE2/FFE saying "Okay, you can have it back if that's
>> your attitude."
>
>Hmm, good idea. I must be puerile and silly but I'm just off to do
>that now.
>
>Via anonymous remailer of course.
Well, they know it's you now :)
I just removed them from the Galnet links list. May convene a Galnet
meeting to see what we can do.
Galnet is quite big, though most members are idle. Anyone have
suggestions as to what action we could take collectively?
Gareth Hardy
> year old kid. It doesn't sound like the mails he has sent out before? Are
> you 100% sure it's from him and the header isn't spoofed.
Is there a way to authenticate the email?
Lucian Wischik
>Elite itself was largely based on the rpg game Traveller. Jameson
>predates Elite, though with slightly different spelling.
Copyright has nothing to do with being "based on".
It's only to do with copying the creative/artistic work.
For a game, that creative/artistic work is (1) the source code, and
(2) various bits of design-work.
Whenever people throw in comments about "based on", it's interesting,
but isn't related to copyright.
--
Lucian
Daniel Durrant
news:3e48d1d6...@news.cis.dfn.de...
Yup - a favourite saying of Zaphod Beeblebrox no less! and the expression
'Hey you sass that hoopy Ford Prefect'...
Trev Lucas
>
> Galnet is quite big, though most members are idle. Anyone have
> suggestions as to what action we could take collectively?
Pass, however my initial thoughts are:
Take it off the net.
ie. Use of other forums such as gaming press or magazines.
Unfortunately although appealing this would just provide FDL with the
"Oxygen of Publicity" and may prove ultimately counter productive.
Remain on the net.
Two major ways to go.
Illegal: Denail Of Service etc. Definitely not to be condoned in any
way shape or form. Even if there are people with the skill and
werewithall to carry out such a tactic and the Elite Community all
just so happened to accidentally turn off their security at the same
time, etc etc etc....
Guerrilla warfare:
Im going to have a look around to see if there is a precedent. I seem
to remember either reading something or watching something on the
Discovery Channel about a group of users who forced a change in a
large companies polices by using means subversive or otherwise.
Legal:
Boycot by the community of FD Products.
Will we really make a difference? Are there enough of us and could we
persuade little Timmy that he really does not want to buy that shiny
new game for his Sony W*nkstation from that particular company . All
because their treatment of their fan base has been shite.
E-mail.
Repeated and sustained mailings expressing our disgust at the actions
which on the face of it appear legal however certainly are "Just Not
Cricket." Besides I'm sure FD have E-mail Filters.
Just some initial thoughts
Viva le Anarchy
Juan Francisco Fernandez Carrasco
> Hi all,
>
> I received an email from David Braben today. He has requested that I
> remove all Elite materials, E-TNK (binaries & source) and all
> derivatives from my website. David is one of the copyright holders of
> Elite and is quite within his rights to request this. I am, of
> course, full complying with this request and have removed E-TNK from
> the NewKind website. I must also ask anyone who may have E-TNK, or
> one of it's ports/derivatives, available for download to remove it
> from their website.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Christian.
> http://www.newkind.co.uk
It is a real shame.
I've played TNK a couple times and it is really good.
Only saying thank you Christian for releasing TNK!!
Juan Fra
Daniel Durrant
>
> Well, they know it's you now :)
>
> I just removed them from the Galnet links list. May convene a Galnet
> meeting to see what we can do.
>
> Galnet is quite big, though most members are idle. Anyone have
> suggestions as to what action we could take collectively?
>
> --
> Frantic - GalNET Deputy Chief Administrator
>
> The Galactic Network of Explorers and Traders.
> http://www.galnet.org
What a sad time for me to post to the community! I have never posted here before, but
have just spent the last hour reading through all the threads and catching up on what has
been going on in the Elite community. I myself am a huge fan of such a classic game ever
since its beginnings on the BBC.
Soon after Frontier Developments was set up, I wrote DB a long email of congratulation and
then consolation for the way the game had apparently been forced out bug-full by GameTek.
Of course I never got a response. I've kept track over a long period of time the various
wrangles and unpleasantries bestowed upon us by DB and have today, as a result of the
latest happenings (the killing off of E-TNK etc) written my second email to him. It is
strongly worded though not using expletives, so hopefully he'll see it (probably unlikely
though).
I think that email protests are *probably* the best way to get our point across to him.
Provided you don't swear at him (and perhaps even avoid using the word 'Elite') some of
them should get through and actually be seen by him. In my email I stated how
disappointed and let down the community was etc etc.
We should all get writing - *constructive* emails questioning his attitude to the whole
affair and his apparent need to suppress or disrupt anything that the ever-more-esteemed
Ian Bell gets involved in.
Sorry if you all disagree with me - this is my first real message to the newsgroup and
maybe I've totally mis-judged the current atmosphere, but I don't think so!
Kegs
> As for 2001, well, if you took your laptop, sat down in front of
> Arthur C Clarke and docked an Adder to a wheel type station, I'm sure
> he'd have a few words.
Yeah he might have, if he hasn't already seen the game before
>Stanley Kubrik might have stronger words to say about it.
Well I don't think Stanley Kubrik will have very much to
say at all about it, what with him being dead an all, somehow
I can't see you getting an interview, though he is moderately
easier to contact now than he ever was when he was alive.
;)
--
James
jamesk[at]beeb[dot]net
But I thought YOU did the backups...
Frantic
>Frantic <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>
>> As for 2001, well, if you took your laptop, sat down in front of
>> Arthur C Clarke and docked an Adder to a wheel type station, I'm sure
>> he'd have a few words.
>
>Yeah he might have, if he hasn't already seen the game before
>
>>Stanley Kubrik might have stronger words to say about it.
>
>Well I don't think Stanley Kubrik will have very much to
>say at all about it, what with him being dead an all, somehow
>I can't see you getting an interview, though he is moderately
>easier to contact now than he ever was when he was alive.
>
>;)
Sadly this is not the first time I have forgotten this fact :-/
Havok
hijacked the computer of "Gareth Hardy"
<gar...@sentientsolutions.freeserve.co.uk> and wrote:
SSSSHHHHH!!!!
Martin will here you and lecture us aboup PGP signed messages, then
how can we complain about the gigabytes of bandwidth he wastes!
:)
--
Havok - Admiral of Defence
Havok
hijacked the computer of Frantic <m...@privacy.net> and wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:51:15 +0000 (UTC), Trev Lucas
><out.of...@error.com> wrote:
>
>>Stuart Wilson wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Or why not something equally puerile and silly like emailing him
>>> your downloaded FE2/FFE saying "Okay, you can have it back if that's
>>> your attitude."
>>
>>Hmm, good idea. I must be puerile and silly but I'm just off to do
>>that now.
>>
>>Via anonymous remailer of course.
>
>Well, they know it's you now :)
>
>I just removed them from the Galnet links list. May convene a Galnet
>meeting to see what we can do.
>
>Galnet is quite big, though most members are idle. Anyone have
>suggestions as to what action we could take collectively?
I don't think anything we do/say will change the way it is. FD seem to
be a very unresponsive company when it comes to their fanbase.
How about members help write a new universe for darkness falls, more
specifically a bunch of new ship models (since a universe generator
would be relativly straight forward).
--
Havok - Admiral of Defence
Frantic
...now there's a frood who really knows where his towel is.
--
Frantic - GalNET Deputy Chief Administrator
The Galactic Network of Explorers and Traders.
http://www.galnet.org
Phil
<Daniel....@Blueyonder.Co.UK> wrote:
>We should all get writing - *constructive* emails questioning his attitude to the whole
>affair and his apparent need to suppress or disrupt anything that the ever-more-esteemed
>Ian Bell gets involved in.
I think you've hit on an interesting point here - how much of DB's
actions come about because of the involement Ian Bell?
I mean, given that they patently don't get on with each other, is DB
*mainly* doing all this because of IB's involvement, or would he be
taking his current actions even if IB didn't, for example, host Elite
files on his site?
Phil
Frantic
<Daniel....@Blueyonder.Co.UK> wrote:
There is also snail mail. We could all send them packages of Elite
emulations for handhelds on floppy disk to help them out.
Slander etc only has a limited effect, ridicule is a far better means
of protest. Send them a money order for 2 cents of something, make
sure someone finds out :)
How about one of those foldout greeting cards? Put in a fold out paper
nuclear missile, or a cargo container with "rubbish" written on the
side. People once protested against a tobacco company by dumping loads
of fake body bage in front of their offices, we could dump loads of
paper rubbish cargo canisters.
Paul Roberts
> I just removed them from the Galnet links list. May convene a Galnet
> meeting to see what we can do.
>
> Galnet is quite big, though most members are idle. Anyone have
> suggestions as to what action we could take collectively?
Lose the self-importance complex and find a new hobby :-)
Regards,
Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Lucian" == Lucian Wischik <lu...@wischik.com> writes:
Lucian> Aargh! I can understand you're irritated by the actions, but
Lucian> that's no excuse to mangle grammar in such a horrible way! You
Lucian> don't write "sent to I", so don't write "sent to Ian and I"
Lucian> either!
Go find a native speaker who doesn't discern between 'your' and
'you're'; 'their', 'they're' and 'there'; and 'it's' and 'its'. By all
means, chide them for their bad grammar and educate them, and if they
complain about it, send them to me. You'll likely be in for a
thankless job, but it will be much more justified than complaining
about the language of non-native speakers, especially ones, like
Christian, that generally show a much better mastery of written
English than so many native speakers do.
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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Comment: Using Mailcrypt+GnuPG <http://www.gnupg.org>
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COYAoKzsHwW8LVottmCokRXEOr1wVRiB
=7n9n
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Trev" == Trev Lucas <out.of...@error.com> writes:
>> Or why not something equally puerile and silly like emailing him
>> your downloaded FE2/FFE saying "Okay, you can have it back if
>> that's your attitude."
Trev> Hmm, good idea. I must be puerile and silly but I'm just off to
Trev> do that now.
Trev> Via anonymous remailer of course.
It may just be me, but I think the whole purpose of protesting is lost
when you do it anonymously. Of what worth is your opinion if you don't
have the constitution to have your name associated with it? If you
want to be heard, put your money where your mouth is and stand by what
you say. Anonymity certainly has its place, but I don't believe that
this is it.
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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=VLYg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Frantic
<knightsofspam...@gvdnet.dk> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>>>>>> "Lucian" == Lucian Wischik <lu...@wischik.com> writes:
>Lucian> Aargh! I can understand you're irritated by the actions, but
>Lucian> that's no excuse to mangle grammar in such a horrible way! You
>Lucian> don't write "sent to I", so don't write "sent to Ian and I"
>Lucian> either!
>
>Go find a native speaker who doesn't discern between 'your' and
>'you're'; 'their', 'they're' and 'there'; and 'it's' and 'its'. By all
>means, chide them for their bad grammar and educate them, and if they
>complain about it, send them to me. You'll likely be in for a
>thankless job, but it will be much more justified than complaining
>about the language of non-native speakers, especially ones, like
>Christian, that generally show a much better mastery of written
>English than so many native speakers do.
Ja mislimze taky. On je debil, on mluvi Anglicky a on chcete vsekno
lidi taky mluvi.
Ja mluvim Cesky jako svinje, ale nic lidi rekni ja jsem spatne clovek.
If you catch my drift...
Angus Manwaring
>Planet names - Use real ones, the descriptions are random so just change the
>txt around "Hoopy Casinos" might be Brabens but "Loopy Casinos" isn't. How
>can he claim to own the copyright on Tree Grubs???
Technically, wouldn't "hoopy" be Douglas Adams?
All the best,
Angus Manwaring. (for e-mail remove ANTISPEM)
I need your memories for the Amiga Games Database: A collection of Amiga
Game reviews by Amiga players http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/AGDB.html
Trev Lucas
> It may just be me, but I think the whole purpose of protesting is
> lost when you do it anonymously. Of what worth is your opinion if
> you don't have the constitution to have your name associated with
> it? If you want to be heard, put your money where your mouth is and
> stand by what you say. Anonymity certainly has its place, but I
> don't believe that this is it.
>
> Martin
>
Sorry Martin however it would appear that the joke was not appreciated
Imagine how stupid I would be to carry out an anonymously action and
then publicize the aforementioned action on a newsgroup. Which the
recipient target would most certainly be monitoring. :-)
You could be right though. All that alcohol must have killed a few
brain cells.
Krzysztof Kania
Uzytkownik "Frantic" <m...@privacy.net> napisal w wiadomosci
news:j9ci4vssfe2bn86pp...@4ax.com...
Mimo ze dzieli nas kilkaset kilometrow i granica, to ja i tak rozumiem - co
z tego ze inny jezyk :).
Kris Kania
http://www.3dap.com/elite4
Frantic
Polish? Gah.
Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Havok" == Havok <elite.n...@REMOVEpaulnilsson.com> writes:
>> Is there a way to authenticate the email?
Havok> SSSSHHHHH!!!!
Havok> Martin will here you and lecture us aboup PGP signed messages,
Havok> then how can we complain about the gigabytes of bandwidth he
Havok> wastes!
Erm... yup, nice summary. Authentication is what digital signatures
are for, but since DB didn't digitally sign his mail, that's a moot
point to the current discussion. To anyone interested I have a short
introduction to how digital signatures actually works:
http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/articles/digital_signatures.html
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Frantic" == Frantic <m...@privacy.net> writes:
Frantic> Ja mislimze taky. On je debil, on mluvi Anglicky a on chcete
Frantic> vsekno lidi taky mluvi.
Frantic> Ja mluvim Cesky jako svinje, ale nic lidi rekni ja jsem
Frantic> spatne clovek.
Frantic> If you catch my drift...
Bedaŭrinde mi tute ne komprenas la Ĉeĥa lingvo, sed vi sciis antaŭ vi
skribis vian poŝton, ĉu ne?
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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=cHCF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Trev" == Trev Lucas <out.of...@error.com> writes:
Trev> Sorry Martin however it would appear that the joke was not
Trev> appreciated
The joke must be spotted before it can be appreciated.
Trev> Imagine how stupid I would be to carry out an anonymously action
Trev> and then publicize the aforementioned action on a
Trev> newsgroup. Which the recipient target would most certainly be
Trev> monitoring. :-)
This is Usenet, son; don't blame me for mistaking a subtle joke for
genuine stupidity. :-)
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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Krzysztof Kania
Barry Barcrest
> > thier stuff too?
>
> For infringing materials I would imagine so. The email itself as posted
> by Christian looks generic enough to have been sent to other webmasters.
> Mark.
Yeah but thats the thing it hasn't been sent to other webmasters...
Christian Pinder
<knightsofspam...@gvdnet.dk> wrote:
>Go find a native speaker who doesn't discern between 'your' and
>'you're'; 'their', 'they're' and 'there'; and 'it's' and 'its'. By all
>means, chide them for their bad grammar and educate them, and if they
>complain about it, send them to me. You'll likely be in for a
>thankless job, but it will be much more justified than complaining
>about the language of non-native speakers, especially ones, like
>Christian, that generally show a much better mastery of written
>English than so many native speakers do.
Erm, where exactly do you think I'm from?
Corncrake
So why did xElite vanish so quickly then ?
Lucian Wischik
>Martin Christensen wrote:
>>Go find a native speaker...
>Erm, where exactly do you think I'm from?
Despite your .co.uk domain, Christian, I thought you were German. Your
surname and first name seem german to me, at least...
--
Lucian
Christian Pinder
(Corncrake) wrote:
>So why did xElite vanish so quickly then ?
I asked the xElite team to remove the downloads after I received the
email from DB. xElite is largely based on E-TNK code. I don't know
exactly who DB has sent emails to, hopefully he will enlighten us on
that one. It's possible that his actions are directed purely at me.
If E-TNK code is causing DB a problem then I would prefer that it is
not used or distributed. I will therefore be asking other people who
use E-TNK code to stop distribution.
Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Lucian" == Lucian Wischik <lu...@wischik.com> writes:
>> Erm, where exactly do you think I'm from?
Lucian> Despite your .co.uk domain, Christian, I thought you were
Lucian> German. Your surname and first name seem german to me, at
Lucian> least...
Same here.
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Corncrake
<chri...@newkind-remove-this.co.uk> wrote:
A few comments inline :
>I asked the xElite team to remove the downloads after I received the
>email from DB.
Oh, that's a shame.
Presumably, since xElite was no secret, if DB had wanted to he
could have sent them an email directly, if it had been causing
him a problem ?
> It's possible that his actions are directed purely at me.
Possibly, but my guess would be -->
or to someone not far from you with whom he has had a long-standing
feud and who has recently engaged in less than helpfull offers and
remarks on his own website.
>If E-TNK code is causing DB a problem then I would prefer that it is
>not used or distributed. I will therefore be asking other people who
>use E-TNK code to stop distribution.
That's a pity.
But not to worry, E-TNK has given me much fun and pleasure these
past few months, for which I thank you.
Good luck with DF.
Frantic
<knightsofspam...@gvdnet.dk> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>>>>>> "Frantic" == Frantic <m...@privacy.net> writes:
>Frantic> Ja mislimze taky. On je debil, on mluvi Anglicky a on chcete
>Frantic> vsekno lidi taky mluvi.
>Frantic> Ja mluvim Cesky jako svinje, ale nic lidi rekni ja jsem
>Frantic> spatne clovek.
>Frantic> If you catch my drift...
>
>Bedaýrinde mi tute ne komprenas la Ćeśa lingvo, sed vi sciis antaý vi
>skribis vian poţton, ću ne?
>
>Martin
If I had used diacritics, most of it would come out gářblě´d.
Frantic
<knightsofspam...@gvdnet.dk> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>>>>>> "Lucian" == Lucian Wischik <lu...@wischik.com> writes:
>>> Erm, where exactly do you think I'm from?
>Lucian> Despite your .co.uk domain, Christian, I thought you were
>Lucian> German. Your surname and first name seem german to me, at
>Lucian> least...
>
>Same here.
That settles it then. Bloody kraut ;-)
Barry Barcrest
"Corncrake" <nos...@notathome.ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3e4976cd...@text.news.ntlworld.com...
> On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:43:29 +0000, Christian Pinder
> <chri...@newkind-remove-this.co.uk> wrote:
>
> A few comments inline :
>
> >I asked the xElite team to remove the downloads after I received the
> >email from DB.
>
> Oh, that's a shame.
> Presumably, since xElite was no secret, if DB had wanted to he
> could have sent them an email directly, if it had been causing
> him a problem ?
>
Exactly but we are a large team and majority rules, the others thought we
should take it off so FOR THE TIME BEING it's off. I think we should have
waited for a mail from Braben as he hasn't closed ANY of the other projects
down. Do a search and you'll find them and the source code all over the
place... Maybe it was a case of I can't have it on my site so you can't use
it for yours.
Regards
BB
Barry Barcrest
news:877kc6y...@gvdnet.dk...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> >>>>> "Lucian" == Lucian Wischik <lu...@wischik.com> writes:
> >> Erm, where exactly do you think I'm from?
> Lucian> Despite your .co.uk domain, Christian, I thought you were
> Lucian> German. Your surname and first name seem german to me, at
> Lucian> least...
>
> Same here.
>
> Martin
I thought so to when he asked us to pull X Elite cause Braben asked him to
pull new kind...
"Orderz iz Orderz..."
BB
NthDegree
-Winston Churchill, when corrected for ending a sentence with a preposition
"Lucian Wischik" <lu...@wischik.com> wrote in message
news:c9gg4v41l81edke9g...@4ax.com...
> Christian Pinder <chri...@newkind-remove-this.co.uk> wrote:
> >The email from DB was sent to Ian Bell and I
>
> Aargh! I can understand you're irritated by the actions, but that's no
> excuse to mangle grammar in such a horrible way! You don't write "sent
> to I", so don't write "sent to Ian and I" either!
>
> Sorry. Very rude of me to criticise grammar. But this mistake gets
> under my skin.
>
> --
> Lucian
>
NthDegree
epoxy. This isn't exactly the first time FD has made a bad marketing move
(like releasing FFE far too early) or kicked its fans in the teeth.
As popular as it is, let someone release a Half-life sequel that won't run
on Windows XP or X-Box or PS2, etc., and only runs on yesterday's hardware
with a load of glitches, and see how long its fans hang on. The fact that
you're even looking at this newsgroup suggests you're either on of the crazy
Elite fans, or are making good progress going through newsgroups
alphabetically. You're just as much up for a new hobby as anyone in here.
Nth
Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Frantic" == Frantic <m...@privacy.net> writes:
Frantic> If I had used diacritics, most of it would come out gářblě´d.
It might have, if you'd specified the proper character set. :-P
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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=RPrw
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Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Barry" == Barry Barcrest <barc...@hotmail.com> writes:
[Suspicions of Christian being German]
Barry> I thought so to when he asked us to pull X Elite cause Braben
Barry> asked him to pull new kind...
Barry> "Orderz iz Orderz..."
You know, I think you've been saying some pretty lame stuff these past
few days, but this puts you quite a bit ahead again. I'd stand up and
applaud you if I could stop laughing for a moment. :-)
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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Martin Christensen
Hash: SHA1
>>>>> "Frantic" == Frantic <m...@privacy.net> writes:
Frantic> That settles it then. Bloody kraut ;-)
Yeah, it feels strangely improper to call somebody a German and not
mean it as an insult.
Martin
- --
Homepage: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/
GPG public key: http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/gpgkey.txt
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Frantic
<lab...@cyberscope.net> wrote:
>> Lose the self-importance complex and find a new hobby :-)
>
>
/me points out the utter non-seriousenss of 80% of posts here.
I recall actually beaing asked permission on IRC to post that flame :)
John Jordan
<lab...@cyberscope.net> writes
>
[snip]
>The fact that
>you're even looking at this newsgroup suggests you're either on of the crazy
>Elite fans, or are making good progress going through newsgroups
>alphabetically.
I don't believe that any Elite-inspired game worth playing will be
written in the forseeable future, but I still find this newsgroup quite
entertaining.
--
John Jordan
Corncrake
<barc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
>I think we should have
>waited for a mail from Braben as he hasn't closed ANY of the other projects
>down.
Well yes indeed ! That was my first thought at the time,
But having received a request from Christian I suppose they
could not , with honour, have refused.
How odd ! This all gets a lot more curious and involved :)
My other thought was :
" DB sneezes and everyone else (excepting Christian, who was
a direct recipient of the DBemail ) gets pnuemonia "
or, at the very least, a severe case of an anxiety attack,
and thus do DB's ** work for free ?
>Do a search and you'll find them and the source code all over the
>place...
Oh I have, believe me, I've been following Elite and its doings for
years now, since the casette version on the BeebB :) but I dont often
post.
** that isnt meant as an especially anti-DB remark, but i have to
say that he does not help himself to appear in the best of light !
If he had explained his problems before the fact he might have
been more popular.
but to come to this place after pissing on everyones fun and
and after a long abstention, and after ETNK had been out for
SO LONG , I think it is sad, all in the cause of, how did he put it
,,,
quote
but the recent appearance of Elite for Pocket PC, advertised
as 'Freeware' through commercial distribution was the last straw.
/quote
a last straw indeed ! So we all have to suffer.
even : miserable, bitter and twisted, are words that could spring
to mind.
Christian Pinder
<barc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Maybe it was a case of I can't have it on my site so you can't use
>it for yours.
You do remember we are talking about my C code here don't you...?
Barry Barcrest
"Christian Pinder" <chri...@newkind-remove-this.co.uk> wrote in message
news:166j4v8oi46nan38l...@4ax.com...
Er... yes thats why it says "You can't use it for yours".. the IT being your
code???
Mat Dunning
@News.CIS.DFN.DE:
>
> It was only a matter of time though. :-(
>
> Still, one thing puzzles me - why did DB wait so long before asking
> for TNK to be removed?
Two new ports have been released on "next gen" handhelds, so they may have
been the final straw, however I think it is just a question of throwing his
weight around. His company hasn' released any successful software for over
10 years (one can only guess what effect this would have on a company's
balance sheet) and it must grate on him that Elite is still his best game.
Its a massive shame.
If he had said, "wait I've got these two new versions for GBA/PPC ready for
release in 2 months", then maybe I would have had some sympathy.
--
regards
Mat
matthew...@ntlworld.com
www.nextgenconsoles.co.uk
Uk reviews/news by UK gamers
Dylan Smith
<usene...@mhetherington.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <b299ge$h2n$1...@venus.btinternet.com>, ed...@edzup.co.uk
>says...
>> I can see another legal problem arising here seeing as Ian's name is
>> plastered all over Elite as well as Brabens.
>
>What legal problem? DB is perfectly entitled to pursue a claim of
>infringement regardless of IB.
But how about pursuing a claim of infringment on a Braben Free Elite
(i.e an Elite with all the Braben bits taken out). IIRC, according
to Ian, the bulk of the 'hard' stuff (the maths) was Ian's code,
as were quite a lot of the ships and other concepts. The Braben parts
can be replaced with something new.
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
Gareth Hardy
> are for, but since DB didn't digitally sign his mail, that's a moot
> point to the current discussion. To anyone interested I have a short
> introduction to how digital signatures actually works:
> http://www.cs.auc.dk/~factotum/articles/digital_signatures.html
I'll take a look at that when the missus gets off the 'phone.
I should have been clearer. Is there a way to authenticate an email (or a
usenet posting) "after the fact" - even if it's just beyond an certain
amount of doubt.
When someone spoofs a yahoo address for spam purposes, yahoo ask for the
full email, with headers. Presumably they can glean some information from
that?
Gareth Hardy
> Erm, where exactly do you think I'm from?
Tionisla?
Kegs
> I should have been clearer. Is there a way to authenticate an email (or a
> usenet posting) "after the fact" - even if it's just beyond an certain
> amount of doubt.
What you can do is check the headers though they aren't quite as
informative as email headers, though they do tell you what newsclient
and OS the poster is using, for example I can see that you posted
using Outlook Express 6 probably through the theplanet.net newsserver.
> When someone spoofs a yahoo address for spam purposes, yahoo ask for the
> full email, with headers. Presumably they can glean some information from
> that?
E-mail headers have information that is a bit easier to decipher, but can tell
you the IP address of the server the mail was posted from, unless the sender
abused an open relay.
where digital signing has the advantage over header analysis[1] is that
not only does it fairly conclusively accertain(sp?) whether the post was
made by the owner of that key, provided of course that it hasn't been
compromised in some way, but it also proves that the post hasn't been
tampered with, because if the post has been altered in any way the
signature will not validate, and each sig is unique to that message.
I actually use digital signing on most of my email, but haven't bothered
to use it for usenet, yet.
[1] You need no special software to read headers, you just have to learn
how to do it, digital sigs require pgp, gpg or something similar.
--
James
jamesk[at]beeb[dot]net
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
John Jordan
<dy...@vexed2.alioth.net> writes
>
>But how about pursuing a claim of infringment on a Braben Free Elite
>(i.e an Elite with all the Braben bits taken out). IIRC, according
>to Ian, the bulk of the 'hard' stuff (the maths) was Ian's code,
>as were quite a lot of the ships and other concepts. The Braben parts
>can be replaced with something new.
Apparently the whole of Elite is joint copyright, regardless of who
wrote what.
...and the "maths" is trivial.
--
John Jordan
Christian Pinder
Smith) wrote:
>But how about pursuing a claim of infringment on a Braben Free Elite
>(i.e an Elite with all the Braben bits taken out). IIRC, according
>to Ian, the bulk of the 'hard' stuff (the maths) was Ian's code,
>as were quite a lot of the ships and other concepts. The Braben parts
>can be replaced with something new.
Who wrote what is fairly irrelevant. Elite as a whole is joint
copyright. It would be virtually impossible to now prove that Ian
wrote a particular part and David wrote some other part. There is
nothing in the source code that identifies the original author.
Arguably on a modern version of Elite it is all the maths stuff that
would have to be re-written. Many of the parts of Elite that Ian
wrote are of no use in a modern game (player centric, fixed frame rate
etc). Ian wrote entirely new maths (i.e. movement etc) code for
Darkness Falls, using the E-TNK code wasn't an option because it
couldn't do what we wanted it to do.
I can go through the DF code and easily see which bits Ian wrote,
which bits I wrote and which bits we've both worked on. We've
actually annotated a lot of the code with 'who did what' for future
reference and are coding styles are vastly different as well. The
copyright on every part of the code is joint though because we've
agreed for it to be that way.
--
Regards,
Christian.
http://www.darkkind.com
Dylan Smith
>...and the "maths" is trivial.
Why do you think I put 'hard' in quotes. I mean, even I understand the maths
in it and given my usual skill level when it comes to maths, it must
be reasonably easy :-)
David Braben
"John Jordan" <jo...@jaj22.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HLBRcWDi...@jaj22.demon.co.uk...
> In article <slrnb4lgh1...@vexed2.alioth.net>, Dylan Smith
> <dy...@vexed2.alioth.net> writes
> >
> >But how about pursuing a claim of infringment on a Braben Free Elite
> >(i.e an Elite with all the Braben bits taken out). IIRC, according
> >to Ian, the bulk of the 'hard' stuff (the maths) was Ian's code,
> >as were quite a lot of the ships and other concepts. The Braben parts
> >can be replaced with something new.
Not sure what you're trying to acheive here - such discussions can become
immensely petty - and I don't think it's possible. Also - I'm not sure what
you mean by the 'hard stuff' - as you say, the maths was straightforward.
> Apparently the whole of Elite is joint copyright, regardless of who
> wrote what.
Indeed. It was a joint project.
David
NthDegree
enough to pay everybody's salary at FD, but I suspect that if handheld
versions were available, no one would have bothered much with a port anyhow.
They'd go and buy the legit one first.
After all, we're all honest, we Elite types. Except for the wormhole bug.
And the last-minute autopilot thingie. And I can't report any missing
persons ever again in any civilised system. But other than that, we're
honest blokes. ;)
NthDegree
"Mat Dunning" <matthew...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93205A06F79A1ma...@212.135.5.75...
NthDegree
drinks - strong and eyebrow-raising.)
NthDegree
"Christian Pinder" <chri...@newkind-remove-this.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kirl4vkijtdvgc4ma...@4ax.com...
NthDegree
> I don't believe that any Elite-inspired game worth playing will be
> written in the forseeable future, but I still find this newsgroup quite
> entertaining.
> --
> John Jordan
Good point.
Nth
Ironlion45
> I don't believe that any Elite-inspired game worth playing will be
> written in the forseeable future, but I still find this newsgroup quite
> entertaining.
absolutely. I don't know, I consider JJFFE worth playing, the same
goes... that is the same WENT for TNK. As well as some of the very
clever mods made, such as Aniso-FFE.
However, I would like to point out (though many have said this before)
that 'official' elite sequels get progressively worse with each
realease, so my personal expectations for Elite IV were already
appropriately low even before my little rant I made earlier.