Not to be too picky but...
Seulky Shin
I'm definitely a fan of David Eddings. HOWEVER, has anyone noticed that
most of the "bad" guys from the east are described in non-Anglo-Saxon
ways i.e. slanty eyes, swarthy skin, etc. whereas the protagonists might
as well all have creamy white skin. I think that Eddings needed to
explore the way he established "good" vs. "bad" characteristics.
tum...@ids.net
In Article <505lk2$u...@taco.cc.ncsu.edu>
In the Belgarion series, you definately have a point. I think Eddings tho
realized (consciously or subconsciously or through the comments of his
neighbors what was going on. The Mallorean has Angarak good guys (Yarbleck,
Vella, Zakath) while the Tamuli series had good guys who were both black and
asian. The bad guys were the "racially-pure" uber-mensch gladiator types.
I think your point is moot by now.
--john teehan
[sig under construction but Ranma rules!]
[.s. then again--- the losers had some tinges of racism and welfare-bashing,
herm...
Aidan Thomas Dixon
Seulky Shin wrote:
>
> I'm definitely a fan of David Eddings. HOWEVER, has anyone noticed that
> most of the "bad" guys from the east are described in non-Anglo-Saxon
> ways i.e. slanty eyes, swarthy skin, etc. whereas the protagonists might
> as well all have creamy white skin. I think that Eddings needed to
> explore the way he established "good" vs. "bad" characteristics.
This reminds me of an issue I've been meaning to raise with someone for a
while. I've not yet seen this discussed here yet, although I don't pay enough
attention so I've missed it if it was mentioned.
Now, you may think this is a bizarre notion but have any of you ever
considered parallels between some of the nations in the Belgariad and the
European nations of the last 400 years or so.
I've made the following comparison, albeit one that some may say is racist.
Sendaria: A practical, western germanic nation, e.g. Germany, Holland
or England. (Poss. England because of its racial mixture of
Celts, Angles, Norse, Normans. etc..)
Arendia: France before the republic. Serfdom, highly feudal.
Aloria: poss. Scandinavia, with (alleged) viking-like tendencies.
Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
dealings and corruption
Melcene: China - ancient civilisation,
well ordered.
Angarak: Communist Russia
These are, of course, just my thoughts. No doubt many of you will refine
them or just disagree outright. Admittedly, some of these don't *quite*
fit and other nations from the Belgariad and Malloreon just don't fit
at all.
As far as the original mail is concerned, it did occur to me early on that,
for the Belgariad at least, it was a standard good(west) versus bad (east)
confrontation.
Regards
Aidan
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aidan Thomas Dixon aidan...@uk.sun.com
CTE Engineer Tel: +44 (0) 1207 585587 Fax: +44 (0) 1207 585592
Sun Microsystems Ltd. IMP BU, Medomsley Road, Consett, Co. Durham, UK
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Thurtle
In article: <322ADB...@uk.sun.com> Aidan Thomas Dixon
--snip
> I've made the following comparison, albeit one that some may say is
racist.
>
> Sendaria: A practical, western germanic nation, e.g. Germany, Holland
> or England. (Poss. England because of its racial mixture of
> Celts, Angles, Norse, Normans. etc..)
>
> Arendia: France before the republic. Serfdom, highly feudal.
>
> Aloria: poss. Scandinavia, with (alleged) viking-like
tendencies.
>
> Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
> dealings and corruption
Tolnedra always seemed to me to be very American. For the reasons above,
also because Tolnedra didn't really know what was going on around them, and
considered itself to be the centre of things :)
(Aren't I awful ?)
--
Criz.
Shannon Adams
Riva--England
Cherek--All of Scandinavia
Drasnia--Germany/Eastern Europe (possibly Russia or Ukraine)
Algaria--(pick your favorite nomadic tribe) gypsies, Native Americans,
Bedouins, who knows
Arendia--France (especially around 1100ad except they didn't have armour)
Tolnedra--Roman empire
Nyssia--Egypt
Gar og Nadrak--Siberian peoples possibly Uralic
Gandahar--India
Shannon
Simon Berest
Previously on alt.fan.eddings, Aidan Thomas Dixon <aidan...@uk.sun.com>
wrote:
> Seulky Shin wrote:
> >
> > I'm definitely a fan of David Eddings. HOWEVER, has anyone noticed that
> > most of the "bad" guys from the east are described in non-Anglo-Saxon
> > ways i.e. slanty eyes, swarthy skin, etc. whereas the protagonists might
> > as well all have creamy white skin. I think that Eddings needed to
> > explore the way he established "good" vs. "bad" characteristics.
>
> This reminds me of an issue I've been meaning to raise with someone for a
> while. I've not yet seen this discussed here yet, although I don't pay enough
> attention so I've missed it if it was mentioned.
>
> Now, you may think this is a bizarre notion but have any of you ever
> considered parallels between some of the nations in the Belgariad and the
> European nations of the last 400 years or so.
>
> I've made the following comparison, albeit one that some may say is racist.
>
> Sendaria: A practical, western germanic nation, e.g. Germany, Holland
> or England. (Poss. England because of its racial mixture of
> Celts, Angles, Norse, Normans. etc..)
Nah, defiantly Germany, they are the sensible people of Europe, I mean they
set the European Union, so it must be them :)
> Arendia: France before the republic. Serfdom, highly feudal.
Agreed
> Aloria: poss. Scandinavia, with (alleged) viking-like tendencies.
I would say pre Roman Briton, mix of nationalities, and savages, or Maybe
America, they are savages now, look at what they did to Iraq today.
> Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
> dealings and corruption
I would say here Japan.
> Melcene: China - ancient civilisation,
> well ordered.
Agreed
> Angarak: Communist Russia
or Cuba
Simon (Asreg on RivaMush)
==========================================================
"I do not lead you, you lead me" The Spectre - KC #3
Simon Berest (th...@dircon.co.uk) (sim...@nova.mdx.ac.uk)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sun.mdx.ac.uk/~simon13
==========================================================
Jon Sleeper
>
> Seulky Shin wrote:
> Sendaria: A practical, western germanic nation, e.g. Germany, Holland
> or England. (Poss. England because of its racial mixture of
> Celts, Angles, Norse, Normans. etc..)
More like America for me, but sort of a mix of all Western nations.
>
> Arendia: France before the republic. Serfdom, highly feudal.
Agreed.
>
> Aloria: poss. Scandinavia, with (alleged) viking-like tendencies.
Again, agreed. Alorns strongly remind me of the Vikings (especially the beserkers)
>
> Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
> dealings and corruption
Roman Empire. That's what I think of. Tolnedran climate is the same, the way the
people have been described reminds me of things Roman (with legions, no less. Then
there's the corruption...)
>
> Melcene: China - ancient civilisation,
> well ordered.
*Ding!* Yet another one. The Melcene beaurucracy is sooo much like the kind in Chinese
history (and I've taken a few history classes) that there is no mistaking it. Even down
to Melcena's location on the coast (lower part of the continent, that is. Not
hemisphere.
>
> Angarak: Communist Russia
I'd say Stalinist Russia, more like. There is a difference, after all (mostly in the
way he treated his people. Stalin reminds me of Torak...)
<snipped>
> Regards
> Aidan
--Jon Sleeper
"You do it, I'm bitter" --Crow T. Robot
Daniel Peters
aidan...@uk.sun.com (Aidan Thomas Dixon) wrote:
>Now, you may think this is a bizarre notion but have any of you ever
>considered parallels between some of the nations in the Belgariad and the
>European nations of the last 400 years or so.
No, I absolutely don't think this is bizarre. I have this notion nursed
myself for quite soime time now. I am not so good in history, so I can't
tell exactly which corresponds to which - historically speaking. Anyway I
made the same comparison geographically with at least similar results.
>
>I've made the following comparison, albeit one that some may say is racist.
>
>Sendaria: A practical, western germanic nation, e.g. Germany, Holland
> or England. (Poss. England because of its racial mixture of
> Celts, Angles, Norse, Normans. etc..)
Sendaria would be Germany/Holland; England not because that should be Riva!
>Aloria: poss. Scandinavia, with (alleged) viking-like tendencies.
I don't think you can see Aloria as a single nation. You have to divide it
into the four nations Cherek, Algar, Drasnia, Riva
Cherek: Scandinavia -> big guys; red-bearded; (->viking)
Algar: ???
Drasnia: Poland?
Riva: England -> always raining; every time strong winds - the Citadell
is London (look at the geographics!)
>Arendia: France before the republic. Serfdom, highly feudal.
>Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
> dealings and corruption
I cannot yet say - might be. It seemed to me that there was somewhere
also Hispania involved...
>Melcene: China - ancient civilisation,
> well ordered.
I agree
>Angarak: Communist Russia
Exactly.
>These are, of course, just my thoughts. No doubt many of you will refine
>them or just disagree outright. Admittedly, some of these don't *quite*
>fit and other nations from the Belgariad and Malloreon just don't fit
>at all.
>Regards
>Aidan
I am working on the maps. I want to make detailed comparisons of the
maps in the books with the "real world". This will take quite some time,
as I started, I thought about a few hours, but it seems to become rather
a few weeks or months... I will tell you when I am ready!
Daniel
student
Shut up, it's a fictional book...
Michael Seddon
Some alterations...
Drasnia - England (Black Country)
Algaria - Cossacks
Riva - Menorca
Next!!
Mike
Aphrael
Shannon Adams <shanno...@byu.edu> wrote:
>Algaria--(pick your favorite nomadic tribe) gypsies, Native Americans,
> Bedouins, who knows
Actually, if any race in Eddings books is based on the Gypsies, it has
to be the Styrics. Ok, maybe they're pale skinned and don't move
around much, but they're pagans who are often abused by the Elenes
(Christians), they're sort of mystical and practice magic, which is
often seen by conservatives of the Elene (Christian) Church as
witchcraft.
A few other thoughts:
Elenia = England (isn't it funny how the hero's homeland always seems
to be England?) I mean, with the filthy streets and inhospitable
climate, could Cimmura possibly be anywhere but London of the old
days? (Apologies to anyone from London reading this, I've never been
there, but I've heard what it was like a couple centuries ago, and it
sounds pretty similar to Cimmura.)
Arcium = France or Italy -- Extreme piety and formality, fine wines,
scholarship (Bevier, Count Radun)
Thalesia = Scandinavia/Vikings = Cherek -- Ulath and Barak would have
a great time drinking together. Only difference is that Thalesia has
more exotic things to hunt (Trolls, Ogres)
Rendor = post-1979 Iran -- Starring Arasham as the Ayatollah Khomeini.
Anyone have any thoughts on Pelosia, Lamorkand, Cammoria, Deira (do we
even know anything about that place?), or the Daresian nations?
------
Aphrael
aph...@microserve.net
Co-Founder, ACETS
"Conservatives wouldn't even change their underwear if they didn't have to."
--Aphrael, "The Shining Ones"
Michael Slade
Jon Sleeper wrote:
> > Aloria: poss. Scandinavia, with (alleged) viking-like tendencies.
>
> Again, agreed. Alorns strongly remind me of the Vikings (especially the beserkers)
The Chereks are certainly based on the Vikings, but what of the other nations. I
think not. I have no idea who the Drasnians are based on, but the Algarians are
similar to the American Indians (complete with scalp lock for hairdo). Rivans are
probably based on England - rather staid.
> >
> > Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
> > dealings and corruption
>
> Roman Empire. That's what I think of. Tolnedran climate is the same, the way the
> people have been described reminds me of things Roman (with legions, no less. Then
> there's the corruption...)
Definitely Roman Empire.
Michael.
--
Michael Slade
mcs...@acmis.mat.army.defence.gov.au
Alex Sorokopud
Michael Seddon (mik...@discover.co.uk) wrote:
> Drasnia - England (Black Country)
> >Cherek--All of Scandinavia
I always thought of England of a Naval Power so i dont
know how you got Drasia as England. Rivia (island nation) or
even Cherek make more sence.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex Sorokopud
Carleton University
Ottawa, Canada
Email address: asor...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Shannon Adams
Aphrael wrote:
>
> Actually, if any race in Eddings books is based on the Gypsies, it has
> to be the Styrics. Ok, maybe they're pale skinned and don't move
> around much, but they're pagans who are often abused by the Elenes
> (Christians), they're sort of mystical and practice magic, which is
> often seen by conservatives of the Elene (Christian) Church as
> witchcraft.
I always though of the Styrics and European Jews, but maybe gypsies fits
better.
>
> A few other thoughts:
>
> Elenia = England (isn't it funny how the hero's homeland always seems
> to be England?) I mean, with the filthy streets and inhospitable
> climate, could Cimmura possibly be anywhere but London of the old
> days? (Apologies to anyone from London reading this, I've never been
> there, but I've heard what it was like a couple centuries ago, and it
> sounds pretty similar to Cimmura.)
>
> Arcium = France or Italy -- Extreme piety and formality, fine wines,
> scholarship (Bevier, Count Radun)
>
> Thalesia = Scandinavia/Vikings = Cherek -- Ulath and Barak would have
> a great time drinking together. Only difference is that Thalesia has
> more exotic things to hunt (Trolls, Ogres)
>
> Rendor = post-1979 Iran -- Starring Arasham as the Ayatollah Khomeini.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts on Pelosia, Lamorkand, Cammoria, Deira (do we
> even know anything about that place?), or the Daresian nations?
>
One more, I always associated Astel (as well as other Elene countries in the
Tamul Empire) with Eastern Europe, especially those countries with an
orthodox tradition. I mean the long beards of the priesthood, the quibbles
over proper kneeling, what else could it be?
Shannon
tum...@ids.net
In Article <50oem1$3...@crash.microserve.net>
aph...@microserve.net (Aphrael) writes:
>Shannon Adams <shanno...@byu.edu> wrote:
>
>A few other thoughts:
>>
>Anyone have any thoughts on Pelosia, Lamorkand, Cammoria, Deira (do we
>even know anything about that place?), or the Daresian nations?
>
Herm....
Pelosia? The Russian steppes?
Lamorkand? Iceland? Eastern Europe during the Visigoth era?
Cammoria? Denmark? Cornwall?
Time to stop taking cough medicine and move on to whiskey. Good night folks.
--john
Eric Wu
>Thalesia = Scandinavia/Vikings = Cherek -- Ulath and Barak would have
>a great time drinking together. Only difference is that Thalesia has
>more exotic things to hunt (Trolls, Ogres)
If I remember correctly, Chereks have trolls too...?
>Anyone have any thoughts on Pelosia, Lamorkand, Cammoria, Deira (do we
>even know anything about that place?), or the Daresian nations?
I don't know, but the Daresian nations sort of reminds me of Far East...
Asia. The thing that triggers that thought is the yellowish skin color they
seem to possess like the Chinese.
-- Eric W. (http://members.gnn.com/EricW910/eric.htm)
Teo Shin Zern
On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Aphrael wrote:
> Anyone have any thoughts on Pelosia, Lamorkand, Cammoria, Deira (do we
> even know anything about that place?), or the Daresian nations?
Pelosia would sound like past time Arabia without the turban.Lamorkand
does look like communist small countries where guerrilla warfares are
almost way of life.(No offence to those countries)Deira will be like
Gothic Europe where knights and witches existed side by side.This goes to
Daresian nations as well.Actually all Eddings books are set at the Dark
Age of Europe with slot-ins for other cultures."Aphreal,stay put,DON'T
come near me!Help! somebody help,I'm going to be possessed by a tiny
goddess!"--Sir aele,there goes again, I got my qrong spelling.(I'm brother
of Kalten,got the similarity?)
Leonora the KittenLady
student <stu...@foxvalley.tec.wi.us> wrote:
>Shut up, it's a fictional book...
Fictional books sometimes borrow ideas from real life.
-Leonora
|\____/ | *Lilles May Grow Even Through Snow-SwitchbladeSymph
| o"" o| |*Doobie Doobie--**SPLAT!!** Sorry I didn't see the
(: Y : ) |*Penguin there!****GO RANGERS! GO PANTHERS!********
U |*Offical Pig Carrying Goth of the New York Rangers*
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Leo_Mistress_of_All_Evil*
Chris Thurtle
In article: <50ogna$a...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> asor...@chat.carleton.ca
(Alex Sorokopud) writes:
> Michael Seddon (mik...@discover.co.uk) wrote:
>
> > Drasnia - England (Black Country)
>
> > >Cherek--All of Scandinavia
>
> I always thought of England of a Naval Power so i dont
> know how you got Drasia as England. Rivia (island nation) or
> even Cherek make more sence.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Alex Sorokopud
I agree Drasnia never struck me as England, although it seems to be similar
in climate. Sendaria always seemed like England. With their famous reserved
attitudes :) Durnik always seemed very English to me...
--
Criz.
Email: rada...@thurtle.demon.co.uk
URL: http://www.thurtle.demon.co.uk
Benjamin Hertzberg
I have to disagree with all of your comparisons between Communist Russia
and the angaraks. I think the association comes about because of the
western worlds cultural biased towards Russia during the cold war as the
source of evil, and it is in the east. But you have to remember that
Communism is completely against religon (proests are, after all, a higher
class than just about anyone) and in BtS eddings describes angaraks as the
most spiritual of peoples (Belsembar, etc.) Also, angarak, especially
Murgodom had very strict social classes, something communism was set against.
I think the angaraks are just your typical evil theocracy (with the exception
of Mallorea) with the stereotypical peoples of Eastern Europe and North
Western Asia.
Johnnie T Lu
aph...@microserve.net (Aphrael) writes:
>Anyone have any thoughts on Pelosia, Lamorkand, Cammoria, Deira (do we
>even know anything about that place?), or the Daresian nations?
I'd go with the Middle East as being fairly close to Lamorkand. It's
made up of a bunch of little kingdoms, where there seems to be a constant
state of unrest in the area, often leading to small wars.
--JL
PBEL1
> or England. (Poss. England because of its racial mixture of
> Celts, Angles, Norse, Normans. etc..)
My guess is that Riva is your England, the island west of the continent,
aloof, shocking weather, majestic king, all of that kind of thing.
Sendaria I agree would be one of the Low Countries.
>Arendia: France before the republic. Serfdom, highly feudal.
Probably, yeah.
>Aloria: poss. Scandinavia, with (alleged) viking-like tendencies.
Cherek, you have the Vikings, but I don't think Drasnia would be exactly
the same, or Algaria. Drasnia doesn't exactly fit any discription of any
country on earth (that I can think of, anyway).
And as I'm sure many have argued, Algaria would be the American Indians,
or the Cossacks of Russia, or the Mongols, or some horse-riding nation.
>Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
> dealings and corruption
I would've said America - involving itself in International politics,
keeping the peace, corrupt, secular and materialistic, and commercial
(apologies to all americans offended by this).
>Melcene: China - ancient civilisation,
> well ordered.
Hmm, yeah, I spose.
>Angarak: Communist Russia
I would've though that Mallorea (and Tamuli) are the USSR, that the
Nadraks are the Japanese (that's drawing a bloody long bow, I know, but
I'm relying on the commercial nature of the two countries), the Thulls -
I dunno. Murgos would be modern Communist China, though, in competition
with Mallorea (USSR), yet still similar.
Paddy
Michael C. Ling
On Sep 11, 1996 00:39:23 in article <Re: Not to be too picky but...>,
'PBEL1 <PB...@student.monash.edu.au>' wrote:
>>Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
>> dealings and corruption
>
>I would've said America - involving itself in International politics,
>keeping the peace, corrupt, secular and materialistic, and commercial
>(apologies to all americans offended by this).
resembles America because of the cultural, racial and religious diversity,
its agricultural economy, its democratically elected ruler, and its
practical and sensible people. :')
M C L -
--
WWW page under construction (last update 07/20/96) Halfway complete.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mike_Ling/homepage.htm
tum...@ids.net
In Article <5151nr$i...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>
PBEL1 <PB...@student.monash.edu.au> writes:
>Aidan Thomas Dixon <aidan...@uk.sun.com> wrote:
>>
>>Sendaria: A practical, western germanic nation, e.g. Germany, Holland
>> or England. (Poss. England because of its racial mixture of
>> Celts, Angles, Norse, Normans. etc..)
>
They elected their first king (George Washington was offered the title of
king), mixed-nationalities working together (for the most part), farmers and
innovators. Also, who can forget Paine's "Common Sense", says something about
Sendarian values and junk.
my two bytes.
--john
[sig on shriek]
kaltoon
Now here is where everyone fails to appreciate the raw beauty of Eddings
works. He invented his own nations, world, theologies, etc. that are not
based completely on any one nation. Instead he has based each nation on a
different sect, subculture or even major sociological group. Each nation
in The Belgariad, etc. has its own personal identity outside of any other,
real or fantasy.
Michael C. Ling <mike...@nyc.pipeline.com> wrote in article
<5159jm$l...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>...
Eric Wu
>America is far too religious and prudish to be Tolnedra. I think Sendaria
>resembles America because of the cultural, racial and religious diversity,
>its agricultural economy, its democratically elected ruler, and its
>practical and sensible people. :')
>
>M C L -
>
>--
>WWW page under construction (last update 07/20/96) Halfway complete.
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Mike_Ling/homepage.htm
I like your opinion. =)
-- Eric W.
jmannell
In article <5159jm$l...@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com>,
mike...@nyc.pipeline.co says...
>
>On Sep 11, 1996 00:39:23 in article <Re: Not to be too picky but...>,
>'PBEL1 <PB...@student.monash.edu.au>' wrote:
>
>
>>>Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
>>> dealings and corruption
>>
>>I would've said America - involving itself in International politics,
>>keeping the peace, corrupt, secular and materialistic, and commercial
>>(apologies to all americans offended by this).
>
that the states could be a basis for Tolnedra and Canada could be more
like Sendaria and it is closly related to the equvalent of the
Alorns(does that make sense?)
James
Renae Ransdorf
Michael C. Ling (mike...@nyc.pipeline.com) wrote:
: On Sep 11, 1996 00:39:23 in article <Re: Not to be too picky but...>,
: 'PBEL1 <PB...@student.monash.edu.au>' wrote:
:
: >>Tolnedra: Italy. Somewhat money oriented with lots of underhand
: >> dealings and corruption
: >
: >I would've said America - involving itself in International politics,
: >keeping the peace, corrupt, secular and materialistic, and commercial
: >(apologies to all americans offended by this).
:
: America is far too religious and prudish to be Tolnedra. I think Sendaria
: resembles America because of the cultural, racial and religious diversity,
: its agricultural economy, its democratically elected ruler, and its
: practical and sensible people. :')
Exactly. My guess was that Sendaria=New England,
and Tolnedra is Renaissance Italy with some
holdovers from Imperial Rome. The "Tolnedran
Inn"/"McDonalds" parallel made me wonder, though...
RLR
:
: --
Mark Sheppard
There are also some similarities between the Angaraks (particularly the
Maloreans) with the Chinese.
1) The Malorean army, which was frequently dressed in RED.
2) All Angaraks being described as having "Angular Eyes"
3) The Angaraks worshipping a false god, could possibly be a reference to
Communism (the beliefs of the people in the east being corrected or
replaced by those of the west).
Or am I talking rubbish? Please offer your opinions.
Mark