Police handcuff 5 year old.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
FROM BBC NEWS WEBSITE:
US police handcuff five-year-old
The officers were caught on camera as they handcuffed the girl
A lawyer has threatened to sue police officers who handcuffed an
allegedly uncontrollable five-year-old after she acted up at a Florida
kindergarten.
The officers were called by the school after a teacher and assistant
principal failed to calm down the little girl.
The incident was caught on a video camera which was rolling in the
classroom as part of a self-improvement exercise at the St Petersburg
school.
A lawyer for the girl's mother said the episode was
"incomprehensible".
The video, made public by the lawyer this week, shows the unfolding of
the violent tantrum, which started when the little girl refused to
take part in a maths lesson.
She then ripped some papers off a bulletin board and started punching
whoever tried to calm her down.
After calling her mother and learning she would not be able to pick up
the child for at least one more hour, the teachers resorted to calling
the police.
Three officers rushed to the scene, and apparently oblivious to the
fact they were dealing with a child, handcuffed the screaming girl by
pinning her arms behind her back.
They finally drove her to her mother in the back of a police cruiser.
The St Petersburg Police Department declined to comment on the
incident and said an investigation was under way.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What were they supposed to do? Pepper spray her? Choke hold her? Shoot
her? The police did the right thing. A punching, biting, clawing 5
year old is just as dangerous as any out of control animal. Sounds
like she has mental or anger issues and could have hurt herself as
much as anyone else.
Her mother wants to sue the Police dept.? Call Human Services, I'm
sure she'll drop that case tout suite.
E.I.
"Magnus, Robot Fighter." <m...@key.com> wrote ...
Wow ! .. nobody want to touch this one becuase of polictical correctness ?
I think the quote from the mother says it all.
If SHE didn't understand enough for the police to come visiting,
if SHE couldn't control a 5 yr old [hyper active?] then the
police will handle it the way they are trined to.
Besides, what is the youngest kid to shoot and kill somebody ?
... the kid may have been armed ... <g>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
E.I.
"E.I." <a@b.c> wrote ...
Ah, FOUND IT at last ...
QUOTE:
The video, made public by the lawyer this week, shows the unfolding
of the violent tantrum, which started when the little girl refused to take
part in a maths lesson.
She then ripped some papers off a bulletin board and started punching
whoever tried to calm her down.
After calling her mother and learning she would not be able to pick up
the child for at least one more hour, the teachers resorted to calling the
police.
Three officers rushed to the scene, and apparently oblivious to the fact
they were dealing with a child, handcuffed the screaming girl by pinning
her arms behind her back.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > What were they supposed to do? Pepper spray her? Choke hold her? Shoot
> > her? The police did the right thing. A punching, biting, clawing 5
> > year old is just as dangerous as any out of control animal. Sounds
> > like she has mental or anger issues and could have hurt herself as
> > much as anyone else.
> >
> > Her mother wants to sue the Police dept.? Call Human Services, I'm
> > sure she'll drop that case tout suite.
I think the police had a duty to rough her up a bit before
booking her for public violence...
Joe Shimkus
"E.I." <a@b.c> wrote:
"FOUND IT at last?" Given you previously responded, are you in the
habit of responding w/o reading the post to which you are responding?
--
PGP Key (DH/DSS): http://www.shimkus.com/public_key.asc
PGP Fingerprint: 89B4 52DA CF10 EE03 02AD 9134 21C6 2A68 CE52 EE1A
Patrick M Geahan
> She then ripped some papers off a bulletin board and started punching
> whoever tried to calm her down.
There you go, that's all I need to hear.
Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation. Restrain
subject, wait for the subject to calm down, transfer custody.
In this case, I'd say it's as much for the child's safety as the officer's
safety.
--
-------Patrick M Geahan---...@thepatcave.org---ICQ:3784715------
"You know, this is how the sum total of human knowledge is increased.
Not with idle speculation and meaningless chatter, but with a
medium-sized hammer and some free time." - spa...@pffcu.com, a.f.c-a
kay w
Magnus:
>> She then ripped some papers off a bulletin board and started punching
>> whoever tried to calm her down.
Patrick:
>There you go, that's all I need to hear.
>
>Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation. Restrain
>subject, wait for the subject to calm down, transfer custody.
>
>In this case, I'd say it's as much for the child's safety as the officer's
>safety.
I've seen parts of the video. This was not some sweet little child
merely having a temper tantrum; she was *wild* and a danger to herself
and others.
Good for the school and police that they have the video. If the
mother could have been bothered to come to the school when called, the
police wouldn't have been summoned.
--
"If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner."
Tallulah Bankhead
kay w
>Good for the school and police that they have the video. If the
>mother could have been bothered to come to the school when called, the
>police wouldn't have been summoned.
That should have been "maybe" the police wouldn't have had to be
summoned.
I read that the mother already has a lawyer and they're planning to
sue (of course); and I trust the school board and the assistant
principal will file a counter suit.
Dana Carpender
kay w wrote:
> Previously, I said:
>
>
>>Good for the school and police that they have the video. If the
>>mother could have been bothered to come to the school when called, the
>>police wouldn't have been summoned.
>
>
>
> That should have been "maybe" the police wouldn't have had to be
> summoned.
>
> I read that the mother already has a lawyer and they're planning to
> sue (of course); and I trust the school board and the assistant
> principal will file a counter suit.
>
>
I wish I could say I'm shocked by this incident, but I'm not. My sister
is a career teacher, and I hear the horror stories, both of behavior
(not as wild as this, but still pretty bad) and of the parents who
object to any and all attempts to get their dear little darlings to
behave. Last year she had a kid throw a chair across the room,
screaming and cursing. His mother told Kim that she was awful to
discipline him for this because "it wasn't his fault." They had a kid
at the school several years ago who, at the tender age of six, would
tackle little girls, knock them to the ground, yank up their skirts, and
try to pull their panties off. The parent's reaction? "Boys will be
boys." (The mother came to the teacher conference wearing a see-thru
top with no bra.) Another kid would violently attack any other child
who got any sort of attention from his teacher; the mother said that if
dear little Kent just got the attention he *needed* -- all of the
teacher's undivided attention, all the time -- he'd be an angel, just
like he was at home -- where mommy was still dressing and feeding him
age five. This year she has a kid who talks *constantly* -- even during
quiet work time, he'll yammer on to himself, and if he can't think of
words, he'll talk in nonsense syllables. His mother's feeling is "he's
just *expressing* himself, and Kim's a big awful meany to try to get him
to shut up so the other kids can concentrate.
All discussions of the "problem with our schools" must start with the
problem with our parents.
Dana
kay w
Dana:
>All discussions of the "problem with our schools" must start with the
>problem with our parents.
Indeed....the parents, and the gutless, dickless school boards and
PTAs.
A friend here is a 6th grade teacher. She and the other three 6th
grade teachers at her grammar school have all turned in their
resignations, effective in about 23 days.
They are not permitted to discipline children whatsoever. My friend
has been hit and kicked by students; one picked up a folding chair and
came up behind her and hit her over the head, and she was not
permitted to suspend him, much less expel him. Another yanked a
drawer out of her desk and hit her with it, and she was allowed to do
*nothing.* Aother teacher at that school had her finger broken, and
the student was not punished at all.
They are not permitted to mark errors in red, because that hurts the
children's feelings. They are not permitted to give a grade below a C,
because that makes the child feel a failure. They are not permitted
to scold students, keep them after school, or send them to detention.
They are also not permitted to send students to the principal for
discipline, since the principal feels that they should be able to
manage their own students.
This, mind you, in addition to having to buy their own cleaning
supplies, school supplies, paper towels, pens and pencils; whatever
they need, they have to buy themselves, on their huge teacher's
salaries.
They are not permitted to erase the blackboards from right to left,
because the movement will make their asses move in a suggestive way.
(They must erase in an up-and-down motion). They are not permitted to
use crank pencil sharpeners, because the secondary movements would be
suggestive; they have to buy electric sharpeners.
It's tragic; mostly for the few students who would actually be
interested in learning something, if only they had a chance.
SoCalMike
> Wow ! .. nobody want to touch this one becuase of polictical correctness ?
>
> I think the quote from the mother says it all.
> If SHE didn't understand enough for the police to come visiting,
> if SHE couldn't control a 5 yr old [hyper active?] then the
> police will handle it the way they are trined to.
coulda called animal control to shoot it with a tranquilizer
Bob Ward
>
>
>I think the police had a duty to rough her up a bit before
>booking her for public violence...
>
>
What would you suggest? Give her a lollypop and ask her to go sit in
the corner?
Dana Carpender
kay w wrote:
Seems to me it's time for the teachers to start suing the parents. The
teacher who had her finger broken? Should have pressed charges for
assault, and sued the parents. It's about freakin' time.
Dana
Dana Carpender
Y'know, I've never been a fan of the whole school voucher thing, but
reading this thread I see an advantage -- the schools could say, "Don't
like our standards? Don't like our discipline? Take your little
monster somewhere else." Even most private schools don't do that
currently -- my sister has always worked in private schools -- because
they're afraid of losing the money. But if everyone had funds for
private schools, the schools could be pickier, I suppose; if they
alienated one parent or expelled one kid, there would be others with
funds to take their place.
Unless, of course, we decided that taking government vouchers meant that
schools had to take *everyone*, regardless of behavior, at which point a
lot of the advantage would be gone.
Dana
Blinky the Shark
> Magnus, Robot Fighter. <m...@key.com> wrote:
>> She then ripped some papers off a bulletin board and started punching
>> whoever tried to calm her down.
> There you go, that's all I need to hear.
> Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation. Restrain
> subject, wait for the subject to calm down, transfer custody.
> In this case, I'd say it's as much for the child's safety as the officer's
> safety.
It was for the safety of anyone and anything near her. And for her own
safety. Police 1 - Crybabies 0
--
Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
Killing all Usenet posts from Google Groups
Info: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
E.I.
"Joe Shimkus" <j...@shimkus.com> wrote ...
- No URL given. A cursory search revealed nothing.
- Later when I had some time I found the article.
Joe Shimkus
"E.I." <a@b.c> wrote:
Uh, the OP provided the article so I guess the answer to my question is
"Yes."
Mike Easter
weren't trained or equipped to restrain her in a child-sized
straightjacket.
Luckily no one was injured or bitten by her. Some straightjackets need
hoods for the biting problem.and leg bindings for the kicking problem.
Policework is nasty business. They get into all kinds of situations
that are dangerous, often unexpectedly so and for which they may not be
ideally equipped.
--
Mike Easter
Lord Jubjub
"can...@thelast.mile" <can...@thelast.mile> wrote:
> Tranquilizers for a five year old? Are you out of your mind?
>
> Bullets. You need bullets for those monsters!
Naw, they've all got tazers now. . .
--
Leader of the Slithy Toves
E.I.
The implicit answer was "yes" ...
Mark Steese
news:f3rj615en49f021dc...@4ax.com:
> FROM BBC NEWS WEBSITE:
> US police handcuff five-year-old
[snip]
> Three officers rushed to the scene, and apparently oblivious to the
> fact they were dealing with a child, handcuffed the screaming girl by
> pinning her arms behind her back.
I'm hopelessly old-fashioned -- my first thought on reading the subject
line was "Wouldn't a five-year-old child slip right out of a pair of
handcuffs?" Of course, the police used plastic restraints. That makes a
lot more sense.
> They finally drove her to her mother in the back of a police cruiser.
>
> The St Petersburg Police Department declined to comment on the
> incident and said an investigation was under way.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> What were they supposed to do? Pepper spray her? Choke hold her? Shoot
> her? The police did the right thing. A punching, biting, clawing 5
> year old is just as dangerous as any out of control animal.
Not exactly. Even as adults, we're pretty wimpy for animals -- that's
why we developed exogenous weaponry. Most common domestic animals could
do a lot more damage than a five-year-old child if they put their minds
to it -- cats have retractile claws and nasty teeth, dogs have nasty
teeth combined with powerful jaw muscles, goats have horns and can kick
like the devil, etc. And compared to our closest relatives among the
primates, we have crap upper body strength -- a five-year-old can break
your finger, but a chimpanzee can tear your face off.
> Sounds like she has mental or anger issues and could have hurt herself
> as much as anyone else.
"Anger issues"? Five-year-old children don't have "anger issues." They
have tantrums. Punching, biting, and clawing are pretty common behavior
at that age. It's the quiet, self-possessed five-year-olds that you have
to watch out for. They're up to something.
--
Mark Steese
===========
The first signs of the death of the boom came in the summer,
early, and everything went like snow in the sun.
Out of their office windows. There was miasma,
a weight beyond enduring, the city reeked of failure.
Blinky the Shark
> "Anger issues"? Five-year-old children don't have "anger issues." They
> have tantrums. Punching, biting, and clawing are pretty common behavior
> at that age. It's the quiet, self-possessed five-year-olds that you have
> to watch out for. They're up to something.
Especially the ones that use all three names. They'll grow up to be
either hairy-legged ultrafeminists or serial killers; you decide which
you'd rather live next to.
art...@yahoo.com
>Especially the ones that use all three names. They'll grow up to be
>either hairy-legged ultrafeminists or serial killers; you decide which
>you'd rather live next to.
Maybe they could be a hairy legged, ultrafeminist serial killer?
Charles Wm. Dimmick
>>What were they supposed to do? Pepper spray her? Choke hold her? Shoot
>>her? The police did the right thing. A punching, biting, clawing 5
>>year old is just as dangerous as any out of control animal.
>
>>Sounds like she has mental or anger issues and could have hurt herself
>>as much as anyone else.
>
>
> "Anger issues"? Five-year-old children don't have "anger issues." They
> have tantrums.
Five-year-old children who are being sexually abused at home
may very well have "anger issues". Not saying, of course, that
this is going on in this particular instance.
Charels
Russell Stewart
Or five-year-old children who have no discipline at home. I
have dealt with five-year-olds before; it's not normal for them
to bite, kick, scratch, and punch when they're not getting their
way. Scream and wail, maybe, but not that level of physical
violence. Even my 3-year-old doesn't do that, and he can be
pretty damned stubborn and aggressive.
--
Russell Stewart | E-Mail: dia...@swcp.com
UNM CS Department | WWW: http://www.swcp.com/~diamond
The first obstacle to solving an interesting problem is the
belief that you're not smart enough to do it.
Ulo Melton
Geahan<pmgeaha...@thepatcave.org> wrote:
>Magnus, Robot Fighter. <m...@key.com> wrote:
>
>> She then ripped some papers off a bulletin board and started punching
>> whoever tried to calm her down.
>
>There you go, that's all I need to hear.
>
>Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation.
Squirting her with bug spray would have been easier.
--
Ulo Melton
http://www.sewergator.com - Your Pipeline To Adventure
"Show me a man who is not afraid of being eaten by an alligator
in a sewer, and I'll show you a fool." -Roger Ebert
John Hatpin
Mark Steese
@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com:
> Mark Steese wrote:
>
>>>What were they supposed to do? Pepper spray her? Choke hold her? Shoot
>>>her? The police did the right thing. A punching, biting, clawing 5
>>>year old is just as dangerous as any out of control animal.
> >
>>>Sounds like she has mental or anger issues and could have hurt herself
>>>as much as anyone else.
>>
>> "Anger issues"? Five-year-old children don't have "anger issues." They
>> have tantrums.
>
> Five-year-old children who are being sexually abused at home
> may very well have "anger issues".
"Anger issues" strikes me as the kind of language G.K. Chesterton had in
mind when he wrote that "Most of the machinery of modern language is
labour-saving machinery; and it saves mental labour very much more than it
ought." A five-year-old girl who's being raped by her dad will likely be
enraged and terrified, but saying that she has "issues" with the way she's
being treated is like saying that black men had "issues" with lynch mobs.
Mark Steese
@iruka.swcp.com:
>>> "Anger issues"? Five-year-old children don't have "anger issues." They
>>> have tantrums.
>>
>> Five-year-old children who are being sexually abused at home
>> may very well have "anger issues". Not saying, of course, that
>> this is going on in this particular instance.
>
> Or five-year-old children who have no discipline at home. I have dealt
> with five-year-olds before; it's not normal for them to bite, kick,
> scratch, and punch when they're not getting their way. Scream and wail,
> maybe, but not that level of physical violence. Even my 3-year-old
> doesn't do that, and he can be pretty damned stubborn and aggressive.
Excuse my skepticism over the possibility that you've personally dealt with
enough five-year-old children to be able to make an authoritative judgment
on what does and doesn't constitute normal behavior for them. Normal is not
the same thing as ubiquitous.
groo
4ax.com:
> They are not permitted to erase the blackboards from right to left,
> because the movement will make their asses move in a suggestive way.
> (They must erase in an up-and-down motion). They are not permitted to
> use crank pencil sharpeners, because the secondary movements would be
> suggestive; they have to buy electric sharpeners.
I nominate this for "mind boggle of the week award".
--
"I tried being patient, but it took too long." - Anya, BtVS
groo
news:Xns96419EAA...@130.133.1.4:
> Russell Stewart <us...@nospam.net> wrote in news:d4eenv$2j3$2
> @iruka.swcp.com:
>
>>>> "Anger issues"? Five-year-old children don't have "anger issues."
>>>> They have tantrums.
>>>
>>> Five-year-old children who are being sexually abused at home
>>> may very well have "anger issues". Not saying, of course, that
>>> this is going on in this particular instance.
>>
>> Or five-year-old children who have no discipline at home. I have
>> dealt with five-year-olds before; it's not normal for them to bite,
>> kick, scratch, and punch when they're not getting their way. Scream
>> and wail, maybe, but not that level of physical violence. Even my
>> 3-year-old doesn't do that, and he can be pretty damned stubborn and
>> aggressive.
>
> Excuse my skepticism over the possibility that you've personally dealt
> with enough five-year-old children to be able to make an authoritative
> judgment on what does and doesn't constitute normal behavior for them.
> Normal is not the same thing as ubiquitous.
I used to associate almost exclusively with five-year-old children. At
that time, such behaviour was not normal.
--
Of course, I was in kindergarden at the time.
Russell Stewart
>
> Excuse my skepticism over the possibility that you've personally dealt with
> enough five-year-old children to be able to make an authoritative judgment
> on what does and doesn't constitute normal behavior for them.
Excused. And I don't claim to be authoritative; I'm just expressing
my opinion. How much experience do you have in the matter? Have you
found serious physical violence to be "normal" for children of this
age?
> Normal is not
> the same thing as ubiquitous.
Nor did I say that it was.
Dana Carpender
groo wrote:
I spent 6 weeks working at a day care center; it wasn't normal behavior
for 3 or 4 year olds, either.
Dana
D.F. Manno
Patrick M Geahan<pmgeaha...@thepatcave.org> wrote:
> Magnus, Robot Fighter. <m...@key.com> wrote:
>
> > She then ripped some papers off a bulletin board and started punching
> > whoever tried to calm her down.
>
> There you go, that's all I need to hear.
>
> Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation. Restrain
> subject, wait for the subject to calm down, transfer custody.
Right, as evidenced by all the times my grade school teachers called the
cops when this happened.
Oh, wait...
--
D.F. Manno
dfm2a...@spymac.com
"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream
will never die."
D.F. Manno
Dana Carpender <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
> Y'know, I've never been a fan of the whole school voucher thing, but
> reading this thread I see an advantage -- the schools could say, "Don't
> like our standards? Don't like our discipline? Take your little
> monster somewhere else." Even most private schools don't do that
> currently -- my sister has always worked in private schools -- because
> they're afraid of losing the money. But if everyone had funds for
> private schools, the schools could be pickier, I suppose; if they
> alienated one parent or expelled one kid, there would be others with
> funds to take their place.
Except that in the voucher programs that have been proposed for
Pennsylvania in the past, the amount of the vouchers would be nowhere
near enough to pay for tuition at a Catholic school, let alone other,
more expensive private schools.
kay w
Patrick:
>> Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation. Restrain
>> subject, wait for the subject to calm down, transfer custody.
DF:
>Right, as evidenced by all the times my grade school teachers called the
>cops when this happened.
Have you seen the video tape? Did you really behave like this in
grade school, or anywhere else, in your entire life ever, even once?
--
"If I had to live my life again, I'd make the same mistakes, only sooner."
Tallulah Bankhead
art...@yahoo.com
>Y'know, I've never been a fan of the whole school voucher thing, but
>reading this thread I see an advantage -- the schools could say,
"Don't
>like our standards? Don't like our discipline? Take your little
>monster somewhere else."
I worry that the opposite problems develops. That is some schools with
less than perfect discipline will become full of "little monsters" and
the better students that had been those schools will flee to private
schools.
I sub in the local schools. (high school). Students have a choice
of which schools to go to. One school in particular is really, really
bad and I avoid subbing there (I am not alone). I am not sure exactly
"what happened" but it seems that this schools has really attracted the
problem children while the other 2 high schools (no means perfect)
aren't quite so bad.
So here local choice allows kids to go to somewhat better schools, but
at least they are all public schools. If the vouchers drained too many
kids whose parents decided that these schools were not good enough
(while those parents who didn't really care tend to keep their kids in
private schools) then even the "better" local high schools could
degenerate. There is already enough problem with parents deciding to
move to outlying districts where the schools are better. The local
school system is losing students, and thus losing money.
Mark Steese
> Mark Steese wrote:
>>
>> Excuse my skepticism over the possibility that you've personally
>> dealt with enough five-year-old children to be able to make an
>> authoritative judgment on what does and doesn't constitute normal
>> behavior for them.
>
> Excused. And I don't claim to be authoritative; I'm just expressing
> my opinion. How much experience do you have in the matter? Have you
> found serious physical violence to be "normal" for children of this
> age?
No, but I've found it to be normal.
I haven't worked with children as an adult, but as a child, I saw my five-
year-old classmates throw violent tantrums: punching, scratching, kicking,
biting, etc. It didn't happen every day, but it wasn't unusual, either. Of
course, I don't know if you'd consider what I saw to be "serious" physical
violence.
Russell Stewart
>
> Except that in the voucher programs that have been proposed for
> Pennsylvania in the past, the amount of the vouchers would be nowhere
> near enough to pay for tuition at a Catholic school, let alone other,
> more expensive private schools.
Strangely enough, though, they are just enough to cover tuition
at Bob's Discount Christian Academy. What a coincidence!
Russell Stewart
> Russell Stewart <us...@nospam.net> wrote in
> news:d4en6r$7a9$1...@iruka.swcp.com:
>>my opinion. How much experience do you have in the matter? Have you
>>found serious physical violence to be "normal" for children of this
>>age?
>
> No, but I've found it to be normal.
Um... OK. Why is that "No" there?
> I haven't worked with children as an adult, but as a child, I saw my five-
> year-old classmates throw violent tantrums: punching, scratching, kicking,
> biting, etc. It didn't happen every day, but it wasn't unusual, either. Of
> course, I don't know if you'd consider what I saw to be "serious" physical
> violence.
I can honestly say that I don't ever remember seeing one such
incident -- either from my classmates when I was that age, or
from other children since. Maybe it's just a matter of experience,
but that sort of behavior seems far from "normal" to me.
Tony Myers (now with flavor crystals!)
Pick her up, carry her to a car seat, strap her in.
Pepper spray her? Choke hold her? Shoot her? The police did the right
thing. A punching, biting, clawing 5
year old is just as dangerous as any out of control animal>>
1 - You're obviously a man who has never pissed off a rhino.
2. The cops were, I assume, grown ups. No adult in their right mind is
scared or a five year old girl. Unless they were the biggest pussies on
earth they did not need to cuff the kid. What they were hoping, I'm
sure, is that the cuffs would scare her enough to shut her up.
Frightening little girls is not a proper use of restraints.
I just to work bouncer type jobs a lot. It's not that hard to control
angry full grown drunk men without cuffs if you know what you're doing.
I've done it dozens of times, if not hundreds. I'm sure cops would
know that better than me. They just tried to scare the kid.
They deserve to get sued. Actually they deserve to get kicked in the
ass, but sued is better than nothing.
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
>Previously:
>
>Patrick:
>>> Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation. Restrain
>>> subject, wait for the subject to calm down, transfer custody.
>
>DF:
>>Right, as evidenced by all the times my grade school teachers called the
>>cops when this happened.
>
>
>Have you seen the video tape? Did you really behave like this in
>grade school, or anywhere else, in your entire life ever, even once?
Did you see the freakin video tape? She was sitting in a chair when
the cops entered, not fighting, not yelling, not screaming. Even the
tantrum she threw was not all that out of place for a lower income
school. She didn't bite anyone, she didn't throw anything, sit her
ass down and have the scary dean talk to her, call her mom, send her
home. Honestly, you people have no idea what schools are like, I
think.
Kevin
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
<m...@key.com> wrote:
>
>
>What were they supposed to do? Pepper spray her? Choke hold her? Shoot
>her? The police did the right thing. A punching, biting, clawing 5
>year old is just as dangerous as any out of control animal. Sounds
>like she has mental or anger issues and could have hurt herself as
>much as anyone else.
>
>Her mother wants to sue the Police dept.? Call Human Services, I'm
>sure she'll drop that case tout suite.
I hate to pee on the parade, here, but have you seen the clip?
Obsoive:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4475513.stm
She did throw something of a tantrum, though there was nothing there
that I saw that would have endangered the teacher, and nothing that's
that unusual for an elementary school in a less than affluent
neighborhood. She was then sitting quietly when the cops came in and
cuffed her. The did not need to cuff her to control her, she was not
screaming, yelling, or fighting when they entered, she was sitting in
a chair. She started screaming "no!" after they cuffed her, and
justifiably, too. I hope the idiot cops and the idiot school get the
pants sued off them. Cripes, people, she's a five year old, get a
freakin grip.
Kevin
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
<dfm2a...@spymac.com> wrote:
>In article <ec4qj2-...@home.thepatcave.org>,
> Patrick M Geahan<pmgeaha...@thepatcave.org> wrote:
>
>> Magnus, Robot Fighter. <m...@key.com> wrote:
>>
>> > She then ripped some papers off a bulletin board and started punching
>> > whoever tried to calm her down.
>>
>> There you go, that's all I need to hear.
>>
>> Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation. Restrain
>> subject, wait for the subject to calm down, transfer custody.
>
>Right, as evidenced by all the times my grade school teachers called the
>cops when this happened.
>
>Oh, wait...
I've never seen that happen....ever....not just in my education days.
Not to say it doesn't happen of course.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
wrote:
>Russell Stewart <us...@nospam.net> wrote in
>news:d4en6r$7a9$1...@iruka.swcp.com:
>
>> Mark Steese wrote:
>>>
>>> Excuse my skepticism over the possibility that you've personally
>>> dealt with enough five-year-old children to be able to make an
>>> authoritative judgment on what does and doesn't constitute normal
>>> behavior for them.
>>
>> Excused. And I don't claim to be authoritative; I'm just expressing
>> my opinion. How much experience do you have in the matter? Have you
>> found serious physical violence to be "normal" for children of this
>> age?
>
>No, but I've found it to be normal.
>
>I haven't worked with children as an adult, but as a child, I saw my five-
>year-old classmates throw violent tantrums: punching, scratching, kicking,
>biting, etc. It didn't happen every day, but it wasn't unusual, either. Of
>course, I don't know if you'd consider what I saw to be "serious" physical
>violence.
Again to reiterate, I've never once in my entire life seen someone
outside of having seizures throw a fit like that.....but obviously
others have.
kay w
Me(kay):
>>Have you seen the video tape? Did you really behave like this in
>>grade school, or anywhere else, in your entire life ever, even once?
Kevin:
>Did you see the freakin video tape? She was sitting in a chair when
>the cops entered, not fighting, not yelling, not screaming. Even the
>tantrum she threw was not all that out of place for a lower income
>school.
Um....
>She didn't bite anyone, she didn't throw anything, sit her
>ass down and have the scary dean talk to her, call her mom, send her
>home. Honestly, you people have no idea what schools are like, I
>think.
SHe was out of control, behavior that, until recently, wouldn't have
been tolerated in school without a trip to the principal and a
spanking. And, had I tried anything like that (which I assure you I
never did) I'd have gotten a much worse spanking when I got home.
Knowing this, acting like a wild animal was never even an option for
me, never even in the remotest corner of my mind.
Sanford Manley
This is part of the problem, the tyranny of lowered
expectations. "...nothing that's unusual for an elementary
school in a less affluent neighborhood." What does that
mean? To me it seems that these children are poorly
supervised, in two working parent, or single parent families,
and somehow it seems we accept and expect this sort
of behavior and the vicious cycle of poor preparation,
poor education, and poor outcomes. Hopelessness.
You never achieve anything if you don't ask for it.
Lackadaisical parents and teachers allow these situations
to develop because its easier, because of guilt, to avoid
a hassle, because "it isn't my problem."
Its all very sad and perhaps she shouldn't have been
handcuffed, but the reaction to blame the police or
the school is not quite helpful.
We are all to blame.
--
Sanford M. Manley
"An ounce of practice is worth more than tons of preaching."
- Gandhi
I am The Ansaman! http://www.ansaman.com
AOL IM: ansamancom
Jane Chaplin
<can...@thelast.mile> wrote in message
news:i1vk611ep9tsm3r3u...@4ax.com...
: On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:32:17 -0700, SoCalMike
: <mikein562...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: >E.I. wrote:
: >> Wow ! .. nobody want to touch this one becuase of polictical
correctness ?
: >>
: >> I think the quote from the mother says it all.
: >> If SHE didn't understand enough for the police to come visiting,
: >> if SHE couldn't control a 5 yr old [hyper active?] then the
: >> police will handle it the way they are trined to.
: >
: >coulda called animal control to shoot it with a tranquilizer
:
: Tranquilizers for a five year old? Are you out of your mind?
:
: Bullets. You need bullets for those monsters!
http://khon.com/khon/display.cfm?storyID=4418§ionID=1163
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1994&dept_id=226369&newsid=14342805&PAG=461&rfi=9
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
You didn't read the article did you? F for you sir.....don't bite me.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
crystals!)" <Sedat...@gmail.com> wrote:
1. Did these men try and bite you?
2. You can't put a flailing, kicking, screaming, clawing, biting child
in some kind of sleeper hold without risking her life.
3. Can I bite you? I promise it won't get infected......
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
Well thanks for ruining a perfectly good argument by shining some
reality on the situation. I had only read the article, which made her
sound like an insane out of control animal. You're right, given what
I've seen on the video, cuffs were unnessecery. But i don't know if
its worth suing over either.
Byt the way, why is everyone assuming this is a less than affluent or
'inner city' school?
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
>Previously:
>
>Me(kay):
>>>Have you seen the video tape? Did you really behave like this in
>>>grade school, or anywhere else, in your entire life ever, even once?
>
>Kevin:
>>Did you see the freakin video tape? She was sitting in a chair when
>>the cops entered, not fighting, not yelling, not screaming. Even the
>>tantrum she threw was not all that out of place for a lower income
>>school.
>
>Um....
>
>>She didn't bite anyone, she didn't throw anything, sit her
>>ass down and have the scary dean talk to her, call her mom, send her
>>home. Honestly, you people have no idea what schools are like, I
>>think.
>
>SHe was out of control,
Well, perhaps by your somewhat genteel standards.
>behavior that, until recently, wouldn't have
>been tolerated in school without a trip to the principal and a
>spanking.
"Why when I was a young 'un..." Spare me. She had a tantrum.
>And, had I tried anything like that (which I assure you I
>never did) I'd have gotten a much worse spanking when I got home.
Ok, good, fine. Still there was no cause to call the cops in this
case. Having called the cops, there was no cause for them to cuff
her.
>Knowing this, acting like a wild animal was never even an option for
>me, never even in the remotest corner of my mind.
That's nice. Nothing to do with anything, but nice, still.
Kevin
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
Sure I did. I watched the video, too.
> F for you sir.....don't bite me.
You, on the other hand, are welcome to bite me.
Kevin
Russell Stewart
>
> SHe was out of control, behavior that, until recently, wouldn't have
> been tolerated in school without a trip to the principal and a
> spanking. And, had I tried anything like that (which I assure you I
> never did) I'd have gotten a much worse spanking when I got home.
What you choose to do on your own time is really none of our
concern, Kay.
Russell Stewart
>
> We are all to blame.
Hey! What did I do?
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
That's just accurate. Poor kids have more problems than rich kids.
They act out more. They get in more fights.
>What does that
>mean? To me it seems that these children are poorly
>supervised, in two working parent, or single parent families,
Sure, but that's not the big problem.
>and somehow it seems we accept and expect this sort
>of behavior and the vicious cycle of poor preparation,
>poor education, and poor outcomes. Hopelessness.
>You never achieve anything if you don't ask for it.
You're an idiot.
>Lackadaisical parents and teachers allow these situations
>to develop because its easier, because of guilt, to avoid
>a hassle, because "it isn't my problem."
No.
>Its all very sad and perhaps she shouldn't have been
>handcuffed,
Perhaps unresisting FIVE YEAR OLDS shouldn't be cuffed, you think?
My, so progressive we are.
>but the reaction to blame the police or
>the school is not quite helpful.
Yeah, you know, when the cops cuff someone they shouldn't have, I tend
to blame them, usually.
>We are all to blame.
Feel free to mope on for a few minutes if it makes you feel better.
Or, you could get off your ass and go tutor some inner city kids. The
biggest problem the kids have, as a group, is suck ass teachers.
Educated tutors can make a huge difference in school performance.
Improved school performance can improve behavior all out of
expectation.
Kevin
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
<m...@key.com> wrote:
That's up to a jury, I would think, but I hope the idiot redneck cops
get fired over it.
>Byt the way, why is everyone assuming this is a less than affluent or
>'inner city' school?
<Snort> Because cops don't act like that in nice neighborhoods, son.
Kevin
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
>Previously, and snipped:
>
>Dana:
>>All discussions of the "problem with our schools" must start with the
>>problem with our parents.
>
>Indeed....the parents, and the gutless, dickless school boards and
>PTAs.
>
>A friend here is a 6th grade teacher. She and the other three 6th
>grade teachers at her grammar school have all turned in their
>resignations, effective in about 23 days.
<snip somewhat incredible list>
I should point out that this sort of thing is not universal in US
schools, if it is accurate anywhere. I worked in several school
districts, all urban, all low income, over the course of four years.
I observed and taught classes in hundreds of classrooms. I rarely saw
anything like that, and when I did there were certainly ways to deal
with the kids, usually swiftly and somewhat harshly. What I did see
almost everywhere was massively incompetent elementary school
teachers, but that's another issue.
Kevin
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
>>>
>>>Kevin
>>
>>You didn't read the article did you?
>
>Sure I did. I watched the video, too.
>
>> F for you sir.....don't bite me.
>
>You, on the other hand, are welcome to bite me.
>
>Kevin
LOL...nice.
Magnus, Robot Fighter.
Pttt...'poor.' Poor my ass. Once when i was bicycling across the
country i would cycle through the most backwater, wretched looking
neighborhoods. Hovels, tin roofs, etc.....but ya know something? There
was a satellite dish in nearly every backyard.
P.S. This may or may not have anything to do with what we're talking
about.
Russell Stewart
>
> That's just accurate. Poor kids have more problems than rich kids.
> They act out more. They get in more fights.
Is there any data to back that up? Not saying you're wrong necessarily,
but I'd be careful about making that assumption. Seems to me that
having problems isn't the only reason kids act up -- a lot of
them do it out of boredom, or because they're spoiled and undisciplined.
Tony Myers (now with flavor crystals!)
Yeah. More often than you'd guess
>> You can't put a flailing, kicking, screaming, clawing, biting child
in some kind of sleeper hold without risking her life.>>
You don't need to. Most adults and all cops are bigger and stronger
than five year old girls. You don't have to hurt or handcuff little
girls
>>3. Can I bite you? I promise it won't get infected......
Let's keep this platonic
Joe Shimkus
"Magnus, Robot Fighter." <m...@key.com> wrote:
> Pttt...'poor.' Poor my ass. Once when i was bicycling across the
> country i would cycle through the most backwater, wretched looking
> neighborhoods. Hovels, tin roofs, etc.....but ya know something? There
> was a satellite dish in nearly every backyard.
>
When you're in the ass end of nowhere, you need that if you're to have
some contact with what's happening in the outside world. A cable co-op
could do the same thing but satellite is probably cheaper to deploy.
> P.S. This may or may not have anything to do with what we're talking
> about.
It doesn't.
--
PGP Key (DH/DSS): http://www.shimkus.com/public_key.asc
PGP Fingerprint: 89B4 52DA CF10 EE03 02AD 9134 21C6 2A68 CE52 EE1A
Tony Myers (now with flavor crystals!)
> They act out more. They get in more fights.
>Is there any data to back that up?
I'd bet there is, but i don't have them and I'm not sure where to look
it up, but ..
Another thing to remember is that the best pre-school and child care
places pay their teachers more than the ones the government runs or
helps run. So the most expensive schools get the best teachers. The
poorer schools get babysitters. And when the babysitters gain some
skills at what they do they leave for the better schools
I used to know someone who held both types of childcare jobs. In the
poorer preschool they'd spend the first half of the day trying to wash
and feed the kids because the mothers dropped them off in their pajamas
without bothering with breakfast. If the kids didn't get fed at daycare
some of them wouldn't eat at all. Any project the teachers brought in
was paid for out of thier pockets. The authorities (welfare or
something like that - I dont remember what group is in charge of kid's
welfare is called )
When she went to the rich school, the school where most of the Royal
and Chief players send their kids, she was teaching the kids to speak
French and they had incubators so the kids could watch baby chicks
hatch. Every canidate for public office would show up and read to the
kids hoping it would impress their rich parents on election day.
Yeah rich kids have serious problems too. But the poor kids are sent to
school with two strikes already against them before their first day
Tony Myers (now with flavor crystals!)
>of behavior and the vicious cycle of poor preparation,
>poor education, and poor outcomes. Hopelessness.
>You never achieve anything if you don't ask for it.
>You're an idiot.
Your conscience is bothering you, I think.
>>Or, you could get off your ass and go tutor some inner city kids.
How many hours a week do you put in doing that?
Bill Van
"Magnus, Robot Fighter." <m...@key.com> wrote:
> P.S. This may or may not have anything to do with what we're talking
> about.
Motto!
E.I.
"groo" <gr...@groo.org> wrote ...
>
> I used to associate almost exclusively with five-year-old children. At
> that time, such behaviour was not normal.
> --
> Of course, I was in kindergarden at the time.
Thank you Michael .... <g>
E.I.
"kay w" <scu...@aol.com> wrote com...
> Previously:
>
> Me(kay):
> >>Have you seen the video tape? Did you really behave like this in
> >>grade school, or anywhere else, in your entire life ever, even once?
>
> Kevin:
> >Did you see the freakin video tape? She was sitting in a chair when
> >the cops entered, not fighting, not yelling, not screaming. Even the
> >tantrum she threw was not all that out of place for a lower income
> >school.
>
> Um....
>
> >She didn't bite anyone, she didn't throw anything, sit her
> >ass down and have the scary dean talk to her, call her mom, send her
> >home. Honestly, you people have no idea what schools are like, I
> >think.
>
> SHe was out of control, behavior that, until recently, wouldn't have
> been tolerated in school without a trip to the principal and a
> spanking. And, had I tried anything like that (which I assure you I
> never did) I'd have gotten a much worse spanking when I got home.
Ohh, kay ..
TELL US MORE ! <g>
kay w
Me(kay):
>>SHe was out of control,
Kevin:
>Well, perhaps by your somewhat genteel standards.
There is nothing "genteel" about children not going wild and hitting
their teachers. This is not news, it's not regional, it's not unusual
to insist that children not become hysterical and hit. That is simply
not permissible behavior.
kay w
Kevin:
>That's up to a jury, I would think, but I hope the idiot redneck cops
>get fired over it.
This is St Petersburg.
Magnus:
>>Byt the way, why is everyone assuming this is a less than affluent or
>>'inner city' school?
Everyone isn't assuming that, just Kevin.
Kevin:
><Snort> Because cops don't act like that in nice neighborhoods, son.
Don't find out anything about the school, don't check out their
homepage, don't read up on the staff, and don't find out anything
about the neighborhood.
http://www.fairmount-es.pinellas.k12.fl.us/index.html
kay w
Me(kay):
>>A friend here is a 6th grade teacher. She and the other three 6th
>>grade teachers at her grammar school have all turned in their
>>resignations, effective in about 23 days.
Kevin:
><snip somewhat incredible list>
>
>I should point out that this sort of thing is not universal in US
>schools, if it is accurate anywhere.
I never claimed it was universal, I was merely relating a situation
here with which I am quite familiar. And you can take your "if it is
accurate anywhere" and shove it up your ass.
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
crystals!)" <Sedat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>and somehow it seems we accept and expect this sort
>>of behavior and the vicious cycle of poor preparation,
>>poor education, and poor outcomes. Hopelessness.
>>You never achieve anything if you don't ask for it.
>
>
>>You're an idiot.
>
>Your conscience is bothering you, I think.
Really? I rather thought I was just irritated at conventional mewing
with no balls behind it to do anything.
>>>Or, you could get off your ass and go tutor some inner city kids.
>
>How many hours a week do you put in doing that?
I taught full time in inner city schools for four years for about half
what I could have made using my masters in math elsewhere. After the
program I worked for was cancelled I volunteer tutored in Dallas and
Plano for three more years, ten hours a week, until I moved to take my
current job. How about you?
Kevin
Erich
kay w <scu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Previously:
>
> Me(kay):
> >>SHe was out of control,
>
> Kevin:
> >Well, perhaps by your somewhat genteel standards.
>
> There is nothing "genteel" about children not going wild and hitting
> their teachers. This is not news, it's not regional, it's not unusual
> to insist that children not become hysterical and hit. That is simply
> not permissible behavior.
Reality is that all kids lose it on occasion. Adults that claim they
never had a temper tantrum as children are only fooling themselves.
The question is how you handle a five year old kid having a tantrum. A
competent teacher should be able to do this without calling the cops.
I do believe that adults should be held to a higher standard. For
example, John Bolton's history of yelling and throwing things at
subordinates is a sign that he has not mature enough to be UN ambassador.
... Erich
kay w
Me(kay):
>> There is nothing "genteel" about children not going wild and hitting
>> their teachers. This is not news, it's not regional, it's not unusual
>> to insist that children not become hysterical and hit. That is simply
>> not permissible behavior.
Erich:
>Reality is that all kids lose it on occasion. Adults that claim they
>never had a temper tantrum as children are only fooling themselves.
Reality is that this is completely unacceptable behavior. A child
who is a danger to himself, teachers and other students ought not be
in a classroom with others, and a five year old no better disciplined
than this is, indeed, a danger.
This is not OK.
Dana Carpender
kay w wrote:
> Previously:
>
> Patrick:
>
>>>Handcuffing is the perfect way to handle this situation. Restrain
>>>subject, wait for the subject to calm down, transfer custody.
>
>
> DF:
>
>>Right, as evidenced by all the times my grade school teachers called the
>>cops when this happened.
>
>
>
> Have you seen the video tape? Did you really behave like this in
> grade school, or anywhere else, in your entire life ever, even once?
I cannot remember a single incidence like this in grade school. Of
course, I'm old, and went to school back when parents weren't trying to
be their children's bestest-ever-buddies, "no" meant no, and while
teachers couldn't spank students, they sure as heck could make life
uncomfortable.
Would that it were still so.
Dana
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
>Previously:
>
>Kevin:
>>That's up to a jury, I would think, but I hope the idiot redneck cops
>>get fired over it.
>
>This is St Petersburg.
>
>
>Magnus:
>>>Byt the way, why is everyone assuming this is a less than affluent or
>>>'inner city' school?
>
>Everyone isn't assuming that, just Kevin.
>
>
>Kevin:
>><Snort> Because cops don't act like that in nice neighborhoods, son.
>
>Don't find out anything about the school, don't check out their
>homepage, don't read up on the staff, and don't find out anything
>about the neighborhood.
>
>http://www.fairmount-es.pinellas.k12.fl.us/index.html
Did you?
School Level Data
School Name
Year Free/Reduced-Price Lunch (%)
Pinellas
Elementary
AZALEA ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 54.1
BARDMOOR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 60.2
BAUDER ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 16.9
BAY POINT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 37.9
BAY VISTA FUNDAMENTAL ELEM SCHL 2003-2004 24.2
BEAR CREEK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 61.5
BELCHER ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 48.6
BELLEAIR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 65.7
BLANTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 73.3
BROOKER CREEK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 4.5
CAMPBELL PARK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 68.2
CLEARVIEW AVENUE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 72.0
CROSS BAYOU ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 47.4
CURLEW CREEK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 27.7
CURTIS FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 14.7
CYPRESS WOODS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 10.6
DOUG JAMERSON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 67.8
DUNEDIN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 51.3
EISENHOWER ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 71.1
FAIRMOUNT PARK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 77.7
FOREST LAKES ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 17.3
FRONTIER ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 44.8
FUGUITT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 50.6
GARRISON-JONES ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 20.8
GULF BEACHES ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 54.7
GULFPORT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 76.2
HIGH POINT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 78.0
HIGHLAND LAKES ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 16.7
JAMES SANDERLIN ELEMENTARY 2003-2004 65.4
JOHN M. SEXTON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 71.4
KINGS HIGHWAY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 76.6
LAKE ST GEORGE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 25.9
LAKEVIEW FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 20.5
LAKEWOOD ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 85.1
LARGO CENTRAL ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 56.3
LEALMAN AVENUE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 80.2
LEILA DAVIS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 20.0
LYNCH ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 63.6
MADEIRA BEACH ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 53.0
MARJORIE K RAWLINGS ELEM SCHL 2003-2004 61.4
MAXIMO ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 69.6
MCMULLEN-BOOTH ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 21.8
MELROSE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 72.4
MILDRED HELMS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 46.7
MODESTA ROBBINS 2003-2004 68.4
MT. VERNON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 74.6
NORTH SHORE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 59.2
NORTH WARD ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 62.1
NORTHWEST ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 55.6
OAKHURST ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 16.8
OLDSMAR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 37.5
ORANGE GROVE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 49.0
OZONA ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 22.0
PALM HARBOR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 17.1
PASADENA FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 15.9
PERKINS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 39.7
PINELLAS CENTRAL ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 60.6
PINELLAS PARK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 73.3
PLUMB ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 25.7
PONCE DE LEON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 54.1
RIDGECREST ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 35.6
RIO VISTA ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 69.7
SAFETY HARBOR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 34.1
SAN JOSE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 46.7
SANDY LANE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 70.6
SAWGRASS LAKE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 63.8
SEMINOLE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 35.9
SEVENTY-FOURTH ST ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 70.3
SHORE ACRES ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 53.6
SKYCREST ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 76.1
SKYVIEW ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 72.0
SOUTH WARD ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 71.6
SOUTHERN OAK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 59.7
STARKEY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 51.5
SUNSET HILLS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 29.5
SUTHERLAND ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 24.4
TARPON SPRINGS ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 50.5
TARPON SPRINGS FUNDAMENTAL ELEM SCH 2003-2004 12.4
TYRONE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 62.3
WALSINGHAM ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 54.6
WESTGATE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 60.9
WOODLAWN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 80.9
In case you missed it in there, that's
FAIRMOUNT PARK ELEMENTARY SCHOOL 2003-2004 77.7 %
Percent of kids on free/reduced price lunch is a good quick way to
check how affluent the neighborhood is. This is not an affluent
neighborhood.
Nor are cops careless about cuffing little FIVE YEAR OLD girls just
for fun in affluent neighborhoods, as I said.
Kevin
Dana Carpender
Tony Myers (now with flavor crystals!) wrote:
>>>What were they supposed to do?
>
>
> Pick her up, carry her to a car seat, strap her in.
At which point they'd be risking the possibility of a lawsuit for
inappropriate touching, or something of the sort.
>
> Pepper spray her? Choke hold her? Shoot her? The police did the right
> thing. A punching, biting, clawing 5
> year old is just as dangerous as any out of control animal>>
>
> 1 - You're obviously a man who has never pissed off a rhino.
>
> 2. The cops were, I assume, grown ups. No adult in their right mind is
> scared or a five year old girl. Unless they were the biggest pussies on
> earth they did not need to cuff the kid. What they were hoping, I'm
> sure, is that the cuffs would scare her enough to shut her up.
> Frightening little girls is not a proper use of restraints.
Sounds to me like this kid could use a bit of frightening.
>
> I just to work bouncer type jobs a lot. It's not that hard to control
> angry full grown drunk men without cuffs if you know what you're doing.
> I've done it dozens of times, if not hundreds. I'm sure cops would
> know that better than me. They just tried to scare the kid.
>
> They deserve to get sued. Actually they deserve to get kicked in the
> ass, but sued is better than nothing.
I'd say mama deserves to pay the cost of having the cops come and deal
with something that was her job.
Dana
>
Dana Carpender
Perhaps if teaching didn't mean dealing with children who have not been
disciplined and parents who think their children can do no wrong,
teaching would attract a better caliber of people.
My sister is a massively competent teacher, and has recently been
berated for giving science tests that actually had *right and wrong
answers*, instead of letting the little darlings draw a nice picture or
something. Because, of course, by giving a test that has a possibility
of answering wrongly, she's being way, way too hard on the children, and
damaging their self-esteem, and all that.
Jesus wept.
Dana
Dana Carpender
Tony Myers (now with flavor crystals!) wrote:
>>1. Did these men try and bite you?
>
>
> Yeah. More often than you'd guess
>
>
>>>You can't put a flailing, kicking, screaming, clawing, biting child
>
> in some kind of sleeper hold without risking her life.>>
>
> You don't need to. Most adults and all cops are bigger and stronger
> than five year old girls. You don't have to hurt or handcuff little
> girls
>
>
First of all, handcuff =/ hurt.
Secondly, school professionals are strongly cautioned to touch children
as little as possible; hug a kid who's crying and you're risking
molestation charges. It would not surprise me if the cops, too, wanted
to minimize contact.
Dana
Dana Carpender
Tony Myers (now with flavor crystals!) wrote:
>>That's just accurate. Poor kids have more problems than rich kids.
>>They act out more. They get in more fights.
>
>
>>Is there any data to back that up?
>
>
> I'd bet there is, but i don't have them and I'm not sure where to look
> it up, but ..
>
> Another thing to remember is that the best pre-school and child care
> places pay their teachers more than the ones the government runs or
> helps run. So the most expensive schools get the best teachers. The
> poorer schools get babysitters. And when the babysitters gain some
> skills at what they do they leave for the better schools
>
>
That may be true of daycare, but it is not, for the most part, true of
the schools. Public schools generally have better pay than private, and
certainly have better benefits. My sister, after over 25 years in the
private school system, is making $28K per year. She gets no paid sick
days or time off, though she does get health insurance. She has no
pension plan. She has stuck with the private school system because she
really didn't want to teach in a class of 35 kids, with no aid and
inadequate supplies, and because she is allowed to teach a far more
accelerated curriculum than she could in the public schools.
Dana
Patrick M Geahan
> Except that in the voucher programs that have been proposed for
> Pennsylvania in the past, the amount of the vouchers would be nowhere
> near enough to pay for tuition at a Catholic school, let alone other,
> more expensive private schools.
All the voucher programs I've seen aren't intended to pay for you to go to
private school.
They're inteded to give you back the money you paid into public schools to
assist you in funding a different education.
--
-------Patrick M Geahan---...@thepatcave.org---ICQ:3784715------
"You know, this is how the sum total of human knowledge is increased.
Not with idle speculation and meaningless chatter, but with a
medium-sized hammer and some free time." - spa...@pffcu.com, a.f.c-a
Dana Carpender
Erich wrote:
> In article <52an61h11ummp4rpf...@4ax.com>,
> kay w <scu...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Previously:
>>
>>Me(kay):
>>
>>>>SHe was out of control,
>>
>>Kevin:
>>
>>>Well, perhaps by your somewhat genteel standards.
>>
>>There is nothing "genteel" about children not going wild and hitting
>>their teachers. This is not news, it's not regional, it's not unusual
>>to insist that children not become hysterical and hit. That is simply
>>not permissible behavior.
>
>
> Reality is that all kids lose it on occasion. Adults that claim they
> never had a temper tantrum as children are only fooling themselves.
Tantrums are something I associate with 2 year olds, not so much with 5
year olds. But I do not remember *any* child in *any* class I was in as
a kid having a tantrum. Period.
Dana
Joe Shimkus
Dana Carpender <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
> My sister is a massively competent teacher, and has recently been
> berated for giving science tests that actually had *right and wrong
> answers*, instead of letting the little darlings draw a nice picture or
> something. Because, of course, by giving a test that has a possibility
> of answering wrongly, she's being way, way too hard on the children, and
> damaging their self-esteem, and all that.
And we wonder why the populace votes in people like Bush.
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
Or perhaps if 'teaching' didn't mean 'associating with all those
nitwits in the school of education'; I was the recruiting manager at
my old job, I hired people with advanced degrees to teach inner city
kids. I did so by telling them they would not be regular teachers,
that they would actually get training that worked, that they would be
observed and critiqued in many, many classes. Some of them indeed
didn't want to work with little black kids, as it turned out. They
would go observe a class, come to terms with the reality that they
were one of two or three white people in the building, hear the noise
and yelling and whistles blowing and see the chaos of class changes,
hear how the teachers yelled at the kids, and in toto decide that this
wasn't for them. But for many people it was for them. At the time
DISD was hiring for about 32K/yr for a first year teacher. We got
people with more qualifications for 27K/yr, for a longer work year.
It's not the kids that make it hard to attract teachers, sorry.
>My sister is a massively competent teacher, and has recently been
>berated for giving science tests that actually had *right and wrong
>answers*, instead of letting the little darlings draw a nice picture or
>something. Because, of course, by giving a test that has a possibility
>of answering wrongly, she's being way, way too hard on the children, and
>damaging their self-esteem, and all that.
I'm sure your sister is a fine teacher, and I'm sure... Jeez, I'm not
sure what I'm sure of, here. This sort of thing is an urban legend,
in my experience. I've never seen anything like this in any school
district I've worked in. Do you have a school policy you can cite
that's posted somewhere, or is this set of rules you're referring to
'oral tradition?' I mean, usually the problem is on the order of a
science teacher telling the kids that the rotation of the earth causes
gravity, that sort of thing.
Kevin
Joe Shimkus
Dana Carpender <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
> Tony Myers (now with flavor crystals!) wrote:
>
> >>1. Did these men try and bite you?
> >
> >
> > Yeah. More often than you'd guess
> >
> >
> >>>You can't put a flailing, kicking, screaming, clawing, biting child
> >
> > in some kind of sleeper hold without risking her life.>>
> >
> > You don't need to. Most adults and all cops are bigger and stronger
> > than five year old girls. You don't have to hurt or handcuff little
> > girls
> >
> >
>
> First of all, handcuff =/ hurt.
If you're working on your geek merit badge that should be '!='
Joe Shimkus
Patrick M Geahan<pmgeaha...@thepatcave.org> wrote:
> D.F. Manno <dfm2a...@spymac.com> wrote:
>
> > Except that in the voucher programs that have been proposed for
> > Pennsylvania in the past, the amount of the vouchers would be nowhere
> > near enough to pay for tuition at a Catholic school, let alone other,
> > more expensive private schools.
>
> All the voucher programs I've seen aren't intended to pay for you to go to
> private school.
>
> They're inteded to give you back the money you paid into public schools to
> assist you in funding a different education.
How 'bout those of us w/o kids?
E.I.
"Dana Carpender" <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote ...
>
> First of all, handcuff =/ hurt.
>
> Secondly, school professionals are strongly cautioned to touch children
> as little as possible; hug a kid who's crying and you're risking
> molestation charges. It would not surprise me if the cops, too, wanted
> to minimize contact.
Totally agree .. just imagine the kudos she'll get when she returns to
school ..
autographs, kids offering her colas ... etc.,
She'll soon be signing for the film rights ..
>
> Dana
kay w
Me(kay):
>>>There is nothing "genteel" about children not going wild and hitting
>>>their teachers. This is not news, it's not regional, it's not unusual
>>>to insist that children not become hysterical and hit. That is simply
>>>not permissible behavior.
Erich:
>> Reality is that all kids lose it on occasion. Adults that claim they
>> never had a temper tantrum as children are only fooling themselves.
Dana:
>Tantrums are something I associate with 2 year olds, not so much with 5
>year olds. But I do not remember *any* child in *any* class I was in as
>a kid having a tantrum. Period.
Neither do I. Back in the day, it was not acceptable behavior to be a
danger to yourself and others. Not once do I remember any child
behaving like this. Never, not once.
kay w
Kevin:
>>><Snort> Because cops don't act like that in nice neighborhoods, son.
Me(kay):
>>Don't find out anything about the school, don't check out their
>>homepage, don't read up on the staff, and don't find out anything
>>about the neighborhood.
>>
>>http://www.fairmount-es.pinellas.k12.fl.us/index.html
Kevin:
>Did you?
No, of course not, idiot. I pulled their home page right out of the
air, because I'm just that smart.
Read up.
Does that look like some sort of trashed out inner city school to you?
Dana Carpender
K_S_O...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> I'm sure your sister is a fine teacher, and I'm sure... Jeez, I'm not
> sure what I'm sure of, here. This sort of thing is an urban legend,
> in my experience. I've never seen anything like this in any school
> district I've worked in. Do you have a school policy you can cite
> that's posted somewhere, or is this set of rules you're referring to
> 'oral tradition?' I mean, usually the problem is on the order of a
> science teacher telling the kids that the rotation of the earth causes
> gravity, that sort of thing.
>
This is in a private school, Children's Montessouri in Escondido, CA.
It wasn't a school policy, it was the parent of a child -- a parent who
just happens to be the other 2nd grade teacher at the school, and whose
son is therefore in Kim's class. She yelled at Kim for apparently a
good 20 minutes or so about how awful she was to give a test that
actually tested something, therefore hurting her little boy's feelings.
However, the director of the school has also suggested that Kim really
ought to teach less science, because after all, science is so hard for
the children.
FTR, Kim is a fine teacher all the way around, but excels in teaching
science. She's spent summers teaching science camp for the local
science museum, and has just been hired for the summer camp program at
the San Diego Zoo. She is especially interested in prehistoric life,
going to numerous lectures by noted paleontologists. Her kids learn
everything from botany to biospheres. Not to mention evolution; she has
for years made it clear that if parents absolutely don't want their kids
exposed to the Theory of Evolution, they should be in the other 2nd
grade, 'cause she's not skipping it.
Dana
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
>Previously:
>
>Kevin:
>>>><Snort> Because cops don't act like that in nice neighborhoods, son.
>
>Me(kay):
>>>Don't find out anything about the school, don't check out their
>>>homepage, don't read up on the staff, and don't find out anything
>>>about the neighborhood.
>>>
>>>http://www.fairmount-es.pinellas.k12.fl.us/index.html
>
>
>Kevin:
>>Did you?
>
>
>No, of course not, idiot. I pulled their home page right out of the
>air, because I'm just that smart.
You don't appear to have read it, at all. Did you just look at the
front of the school and decide it must have been in a nice area of
town?
>Read up.
Indeed.
>Does that look like some sort of trashed out inner city school to you?
It looks like almost every inner city school I've ever worked in, in
Dallas and Detroit. Philly and Camden were usually a bit more....
grungy. More to the point, I didn't say it was trashed out, or that
the paint was peeling, or that the playground equipment was
substandard, or that the principal was ugly. I said it was in a less
than affluent neighborhood. I was right. I went to a small effort to
show you that I was right. You snipped that part without responding,
I notice. Well, you can snip my cites, but you cannot snip...... MY
FREEDOM!
Kevin
kay w
TonyM:
>> Pick her up, carry her to a car seat, strap her in.
Dana:
>At which point they'd be risking the possibility of a lawsuit for
>inappropriate touching, or something of the sort.
Dana is absolutely correct.
Can you imagine if the teacher or principal had wrapped their arms
around the child to restrain her? No way..
Further suppose the teacher had somehow bound the child in straps, or
in some sort of car seat, are you kidding me? The teacher and
principal would both be fired and probably in jail, and they'd be
facing more lawsuits than just the one this money grubbing half-assed
excuse for a mother and her opportunistic lawyer is trying to hit them
with.
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
<dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>K_S_O...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I'm sure your sister is a fine teacher, and I'm sure... Jeez, I'm not
>> sure what I'm sure of, here. This sort of thing is an urban legend,
>> in my experience. I've never seen anything like this in any school
>> district I've worked in. Do you have a school policy you can cite
>> that's posted somewhere, or is this set of rules you're referring to
>> 'oral tradition?' I mean, usually the problem is on the order of a
>> science teacher telling the kids that the rotation of the earth causes
>> gravity, that sort of thing.
>>
>
>
>This is in a private school, Children's Montessouri in Escondido, CA.
>It wasn't a school policy, it was the parent of a child -- a parent who
>just happens to be the other 2nd grade teacher at the school, and whose
>son is therefore in Kim's class. She yelled at Kim for apparently a
>good 20 minutes or so about how awful she was to give a test that
>actually tested something, therefore hurting her little boy's feelings.
I would say, then, that this bears only peripheral relation to public
school policy, wouldn't you?
So, since you say elsewhere that your sister teaches at a private
school to avoid this sort of thing, how does all this fit together?
Does she envision even more draconian standards at public schools,
forbidding her any mention of anything even remotely scientific or
something? Is she aware that in most public schools the teacher's
union would be all up in the principal's face about this?
>However, the director of the school has also suggested that Kim really
>ought to teach less science, because after all, science is so hard for
>the children.
See, this is the sort of thing principals get fired for in public
schools.
>FTR, Kim is a fine teacher all the way around, but excels in teaching
>science. She's spent summers teaching science camp for the local
>science museum, and has just been hired for the summer camp program at
>the San Diego Zoo. She is especially interested in prehistoric life,
>going to numerous lectures by noted paleontologists. Her kids learn
>everything from botany to biospheres. Not to mention evolution; she has
>for years made it clear that if parents absolutely don't want their kids
>exposed to the Theory of Evolution, they should be in the other 2nd
>grade, 'cause she's not skipping it.
That's good, I guess. The fight about teaching evolution is so
different in public and private schools that I'm not sure the two have
much to say to each other about it. Anyway, carry on, that's cleared
up, thanks.
Kevin
Dana Carpender
kay w wrote:
> Previously:
>
> Me(kay):
>
>>>>There is nothing "genteel" about children not going wild and hitting
>>>>their teachers. This is not news, it's not regional, it's not unusual
>>>>to insist that children not become hysterical and hit. That is simply
>>>>not permissible behavior.
>
>
> Erich:
>
>>>Reality is that all kids lose it on occasion. Adults that claim they
>>>never had a temper tantrum as children are only fooling themselves.
>
>
> Dana:
>
>>Tantrums are something I associate with 2 year olds, not so much with 5
>>year olds. But I do not remember *any* child in *any* class I was in as
>>a kid having a tantrum. Period.
>
>
>
> Neither do I. Back in the day, it was not acceptable behavior to be a
> danger to yourself and others. Not once do I remember any child
> behaving like this. Never, not once.
>
>
I might add that I went to sleep-away camp for two weeks starting at the
age of five, and while I remember some bouts of tears, I don't remember
any fits of temper like this.
I do remember a kid of about 12 who, when I was a Jr. counselor, thought
it was funny to run off from archery class and head down to the river, a
patently dangerous thing to do. I held him down on a bench till the end
of class. Should I have been sued? Should I have let him drown?
Dana
Dana Carpender
K_S_O...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:48:04 GMT, Dana Carpender
> <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>K_S_O...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I'm sure your sister is a fine teacher, and I'm sure... Jeez, I'm not
>>>sure what I'm sure of, here. This sort of thing is an urban legend,
>>>in my experience. I've never seen anything like this in any school
>>>district I've worked in. Do you have a school policy you can cite
>>>that's posted somewhere, or is this set of rules you're referring to
>>>'oral tradition?' I mean, usually the problem is on the order of a
>>>science teacher telling the kids that the rotation of the earth causes
>>>gravity, that sort of thing.
>>>
>>
>>
>>This is in a private school, Children's Montessouri in Escondido, CA.
>>It wasn't a school policy, it was the parent of a child -- a parent who
>>just happens to be the other 2nd grade teacher at the school, and whose
>>son is therefore in Kim's class. She yelled at Kim for apparently a
>>good 20 minutes or so about how awful she was to give a test that
>>actually tested something, therefore hurting her little boy's feelings.
>
>
> I would say, then, that this bears only peripheral relation to public
> school policy, wouldn't you?
It bears a relation to the problems inherent in teaching kids whose
parents don't believe in their children having to behave and work.
>
> So, since you say elsewhere that your sister teaches at a private
> school to avoid this sort of thing, how does all this fit together?
> Does she envision even more draconian standards at public schools,
> forbidding her any mention of anything even remotely scientific or
> something?
No, she envisions huge classes, inadequate materials, and a dumbed-down
curriculum.
Is she aware that in most public schools the teacher's
> union would be all up in the principal's face about this?
>
>
>>However, the director of the school has also suggested that Kim really
>>ought to teach less science, because after all, science is so hard for
>>the children.
>
>
> See, this is the sort of thing principals get fired for in public
> schools.
>
She's trying to get hired by a science-oriented charter school; she'd be
perfect.
Dana
K_S_O...@yahoo.com
<dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>K_S_O...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 15:48:04 GMT, Dana Carpender
>> <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>K_S_O...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'm sure your sister is a fine teacher, and I'm sure... Jeez, I'm not
>>>>sure what I'm sure of, here. This sort of thing is an urban legend,
>>>>in my experience. I've never seen anything like this in any school
>>>>district I've worked in. Do you have a school policy you can cite
>>>>that's posted somewhere, or is this set of rules you're referring to
>>>>'oral tradition?' I mean, usually the problem is on the order of a
>>>>science teacher telling the kids that the rotation of the earth causes
>>>>gravity, that sort of thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>This is in a private school, Children's Montessouri in Escondido, CA.
>>>It wasn't a school policy, it was the parent of a child -- a parent who
>>>just happens to be the other 2nd grade teacher at the school, and whose
>>>son is therefore in Kim's class. She yelled at Kim for apparently a
>>>good 20 minutes or so about how awful she was to give a test that
>>>actually tested something, therefore hurting her little boy's feelings.
>>
>>
>> I would say, then, that this bears only peripheral relation to public
>> school policy, wouldn't you?
>
>It bears a relation to the problems inherent in teaching kids whose
>parents don't believe in their children having to behave and work.
Ok, that's fair enough, I guess.
>> So, since you say elsewhere that your sister teaches at a private
>> school to avoid this sort of thing, how does all this fit together?
>> Does she envision even more draconian standards at public schools,
>> forbidding her any mention of anything even remotely scientific or
>> something?
>
>No, she envisions huge classes, inadequate materials, and a dumbed-down
>curriculum.
Oy, I suppose. But everything I know about, from my own observations
to the TIMMS to whatever else you care to look at points to
unqualified teachers as the number one problem. If she's holding
herself out because the schools aren't perfect, you know, she's in
some sense avoiding the hard work of her profession.
> Is she aware that in most public schools the teacher's
>> union would be all up in the principal's face about this?
>>
>>
>>>However, the director of the school has also suggested that Kim really
>>>ought to teach less science, because after all, science is so hard for
>>>the children.
>>
>>
>> See, this is the sort of thing principals get fired for in public
>> schools.
>>
>
>She's trying to get hired by a science-oriented charter school; she'd be
>perfect.
Well, good luck to her with that. She'll have about as much help with
arbitrary decrees like the one you describe at the charter school as
she had at the private school, so tell her to take a good long look at
the principal, ask to meet the board, find out who actually makes the
decisions and make sure she's going to be happy with them. The
teacher's union will have very little traction at a charter school.
Kevin
Erich
Dana Carpender <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
We have known for years that adults have few memories of events that
occurred before about age 7.
See <http://www.apa.org/science/psa/sb-bauer.html>.
So it's unlikely that you would remember a classmate having a temper
tantrum when you were five. Especially if the teacher knew how to
handle a kid throwing a fit.
Kids also mature at different rates. Temper tantrums are common at two,
less common at age five, but not unknown. Teachers in charge of kids
that age should expect them on occasion, and be prepared to handle the
situation without having to call the cops.
... Erich
Sanford Manley
>
> We have known for years that adults have few memories of events that
> occurred before about age 7.
>
> See <http://www.apa.org/science/psa/sb-bauer.html>.
>
> So it's unlikely that you would remember a classmate having a temper
> tantrum when you were five. Especially if the teacher knew how to
> handle a kid throwing a fit.
I have many memories from **as early as 18 months** but I am
very unusual and an exception. I have clear memories of events
before age five, but then again, I was reading at age four albeit
poorly.
--
Sanford M. Manley
After considerable thought, I have decided to withhold any
further comment other than the fact that I am withholding comment.
I would have withheld that comment also, but I am withholding
the reason why I chose to say anything at all. Why I am saying
this, I will not say. - Sanford M. Manley
I am The Ansaman! http://www.ansaman.com
AOL IM: ansamancom
E.I.
Dana Carpender
Erich wrote:
> In article <2YOae.16220$NU4.838@attbi_s22>,
> Dana Carpender <dcar...@kivanospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Erich wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <52an61h11ummp4rpf...@4ax.com>,
>>> kay w <scu...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Previously:
>>>>
>>>>Me(kay):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>SHe was out of control,
>>>>
>>>>Kevin:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Well, perhaps by your somewhat genteel standards.
>>>>
>>>>There is nothing "genteel" about children not going wild and hitting
>>>>their teachers. This is not news, it's not regional, it's not unusual
>>>>to insist that children not become hysterical and hit. That is simply
>>>>not permissible behavior.
>>>
>>>Reality is that all kids lose it on occasion. Adults that claim they
>>>never had a temper tantrum as children are only fooling themselves.
>>
>>Tantrums are something I associate with 2 year olds, not so much with 5
>>year olds. But I do not remember *any* child in *any* class I was in as
>>a kid having a tantrum. Period.
>
>
> We have known for years that adults have few memories of events that
> occurred before about age 7.
>
>
I've heard that, but I can remember sleeping in a crib -- I can remember
my sister letting me out, and taking me downstairs to make cream cheese
and jelly sandwiches (and her feeding me sandwiches between the bars
before she learned to let down the side.) I would have been perhaps
three. I can certainly remember my brother being born when I was four,
and moving in to share a room with my sister. I can remember going in
the attic with my mother when I was about three, and finding a white
stuffed bear that she let me have (I may still have him somewhere.)
I can remember swimming in the kiddie pool at Holiday House Camp when we
took my sister to drop her off; my mom took off my little dress and I
swam in my bloomers. I would have been four. I remember going to that
same camp the next summer and the year after that; I have several vivid
memories, including stepping on a nest of yellow jackets, getting a
stitch in my side every time we did a little dance across the big living
hall floor to the stairs to go up for naps after lunch, and sitting on
my heel during chapel 'cause I needed to pee so badly. Oh, and
discovering that my Brownie handbook had different words in it for a
song we sang at camp; I can remember lying in my bunk on the big
sleeping porch during rest hour, hoping no one would notice the
alternate lyrics and think I was weird.
I can remember being short enough to walk under the dining room table
without bumping my head, and realizing that this was something grown-ups
couldn't do. I can remember where I regularly sat on the floor in my
kindergarten classroom. I can remember being at the local dry cleaners
and sitting in a kiddie chair, a lot like a high chair but with a bigger
table area.
I remember the New York World's Fair quite well; I went a few times. I
would have been five. I also remember wiping out on my bike and skinning
several toes the day before we were supposed to go to the Fair; I had to
ride in a stroller, something I was a bit old for at 4. I can remember,
too, being envious of the kids who were in the big Greyhound Bus
strollers that were for rent at the Fair, because they were so much
cooler than my stroller.
I remember well being photographed for a magazine ad the summer after
first grade; I was six. I remember house-hunting the previous year,
too, especially the house that had a slave closet in the basement from
being a stop on the Underground Railroad. I remember giving my sister
the new bendable-leg Barbie at her birthday party the summer of '65; I
would have been six.
And that's just off the top of my head. If I can remember all of that,
and considerably more, I can't believe there aren't others like me.
That being said, as I mentioned, I worked at a day care for 6 weeks as a
school project when I was 16 -- did two weeks with the 5 year olds, 2
with the 4s, and 2 with the 3s. I don't remember any violent tantrums.
Tears, the occasionally disobedience, sure. But no ripping things,
throwing things, or hitting the teacher.
Dana