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The Water Pipes In Flint Michigan
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Alfalfa Bill
Feb 13, 2016, 1:30:27 AM2/13/16
to
Rachel Maddow had an update the other night on fixing the pipes in Flint. She said that one estimate for replacing the residential pipes was $714 million but other estimates were higher.
It turns out though that in Lansing pipes are being replaced now with a technique she likens to laparoscopy. Outside of the home a hole is dug down to the pipe to cut out a piece. Then a thinner, slender pipe is threaded through it into the house. This technique has been used in Lansing for some time in a gradual project to replace a pipe system. One home can be fixed in 4 hours.
The cost estimate to fix Flint this way is $54 million.
It turns out though that in Lansing pipes are being replaced now with a technique she likens to laparoscopy. Outside of the home a hole is dug down to the pipe to cut out a piece. Then a thinner, slender pipe is threaded through it into the house. This technique has been used in Lansing for some time in a gradual project to replace a pipe system. One home can be fixed in 4 hours.
The cost estimate to fix Flint this way is $54 million.
Snidely
Feb 13, 2016, 2:07:04 AM2/13/16
to
Lo, on the 2/12/2016, Alfalfa Bill did proclaim ...
No wonder it isn't being considered.
(The thinner diameter may alter faucet performance, but probably not so
much as to be a serious hurdle).
(And it reminds me of the drain pipe relines advertised out here.)
/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
(The thinner diameter may alter faucet performance, but probably not so
much as to be a serious hurdle).
(And it reminds me of the drain pipe relines advertised out here.)
/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
danny burstein
Feb 13, 2016, 2:11:09 AM2/13/16
to
In <66aee428-f4da-4de4...@googlegroups.com> Alfalfa Bill <tedth...@aol.com> writes:
>Rachel Maddow had an update the other night on fixing the pipes in Flint. =
>She said that one estimate for replacing the residential pipes was $714 mil=
>hnique she likens to laparoscopy. Outside of the home a hole is dug down =
>to the pipe to cut out a piece. Then a thinner, slender pipe is threaded t=
>hrough it into the house. This technique has been used in Lansing for some=
> time in a gradual project to replace a pipe system. One home can be fixe=
from homes to the street. The key difference is that these
tend to be larger - four to eight inches, as opposed to
the clean water ones which are 3/4 or one inch (to homes).
The techinque is straightforward with the sewer pipes
(again, they're larger):
dismantle a point inside the house so that you can access
the pipe. Some at the intersection of the serwer
with the street main. If you're licky there's a
manhole at the street point.
Slide metal cable through the old sewer line. Uually
unless it's completely collapsed you can push it through.
You might have to use an auger (commonly, in the US,
referred to as "Roto Rootering" through any blockage
or pipe partial collapse, then push the cable).
Place your powerful puller machine in one end.
Clamp a 4 inch (or whatever...) flexible plastic
pipe reel onto the other.
PULL.
The cable comes out, pulling the plastic befind it.
Do some misc end/edge hookups and you're done.
- Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
inner sleeve is flexible copper.
For clean water you have to usually cut through
the street down to where the water "service pipe"
connects to the city main. But this is a single
2 foot by 4 foot or so hole rather than the
entire pipe length. And it's a bit tricker
to snip the house service/street main connection
since... this is done "in service" (while th estreet
main is active and under pressure).
Same with reconnecting the new copper to the street.
But it ain't too hard. And a 2 by 4 foot hole is
much quicker and easier to restore than a four foot by
fifty foot one...
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
>Rachel Maddow had an update the other night on fixing the pipes in Flint. =
>She said that one estimate for replacing the residential pipes was $714 mil=
>lion but other estimates were higher.
>It turns out though that in Lansing pipes are being replaced now with a tec=
>hnique she likens to laparoscopy. Outside of the home a hole is dug down =
>to the pipe to cut out a piece. Then a thinner, slender pipe is threaded t=
>hrough it into the house. This technique has been used in Lansing for some=
> time in a gradual project to replace a pipe system. One home can be fixe=
>d in 4 hours.
>The cost estimate to fix Flint this way is $54 million.
It's been a standard techinque in "fixing" the sewer paupes
>The cost estimate to fix Flint this way is $54 million.
from homes to the street. The key difference is that these
tend to be larger - four to eight inches, as opposed to
the clean water ones which are 3/4 or one inch (to homes).
The techinque is straightforward with the sewer pipes
(again, they're larger):
dismantle a point inside the house so that you can access
the pipe. Some at the intersection of the serwer
with the street main. If you're licky there's a
manhole at the street point.
Slide metal cable through the old sewer line. Uually
unless it's completely collapsed you can push it through.
You might have to use an auger (commonly, in the US,
referred to as "Roto Rootering" through any blockage
or pipe partial collapse, then push the cable).
Place your powerful puller machine in one end.
Clamp a 4 inch (or whatever...) flexible plastic
pipe reel onto the other.
PULL.
The cable comes out, pulling the plastic befind it.
Do some misc end/edge hookups and you're done.
- Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
inner sleeve is flexible copper.
For clean water you have to usually cut through
the street down to where the water "service pipe"
connects to the city main. But this is a single
2 foot by 4 foot or so hole rather than the
entire pipe length. And it's a bit tricker
to snip the house service/street main connection
since... this is done "in service" (while th estreet
main is active and under pressure).
Same with reconnecting the new copper to the street.
But it ain't too hard. And a 2 by 4 foot hole is
much quicker and easier to restore than a four foot by
fifty foot one...
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Whiskers
Feb 13, 2016, 12:27:20 PM2/13/16
to
where the mains water pipe is tapped for each site or house or whatever?
Just unscrew or unsolder the old pipe from that; little or no digging
required and no interruption to the mains supply.
There may be branches in the water pipe inside the premises, eg one for
'mains pressure' appliances and drinking water taps and another for a
storage tank for supplying 'low pressure' appliances such as water
heaters, central heating, flushing of sanitary fixtures, etc. This
would complicate a 'pipe lining' operation.
I still think the cheapest approach might be to install a new lead-free
drinking water pipe from the mains to the kitchen in each dwelling.
Lead in the washing-only water is, I imagine, much less of a problem.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
Pierre Jelenc
Feb 13, 2016, 2:17:15 PM2/13/16
to
In article <n9mkub$bmr$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
leach lead, it will leach copper. Even high-school students know that:
https://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0522.pdf
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org
danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>- Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
>this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
>incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
>inner sleeve is flexible copper.
Copper? That makes little sense; if the water is acidic and soft enough to
>
>- Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
>this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
>incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
>inner sleeve is flexible copper.
leach lead, it will leach copper. Even high-school students know that:
https://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0522.pdf
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org
Tim Wright
Feb 13, 2016, 4:10:55 PM2/13/16
to
On 2/13/2016 1:17 PM, Pierre Jelenc wrote:
> In article <n9mkub$bmr$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> - Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
>> this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
>> incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
>> inner sleeve is flexible copper.
>
> Copper? That makes little sense; if the water is acidic and soft enough to
> leach lead, it will leach copper. Even high-school students know that:
> https://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0522.pdf
>
> Pierre
>
Pex™ is much better than copper. Virtually all new homes are being
> In article <n9mkub$bmr$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> - Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
>> this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
>> incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
>> inner sleeve is flexible copper.
>
> Copper? That makes little sense; if the water is acidic and soft enough to
> leach lead, it will leach copper. Even high-school students know that:
> https://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0522.pdf
>
> Pierre
>
plumbed with Pex™.
http://www.pexinfo.com/
--
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress;
but I repeat myself.
- Mark Twain
Tim W
Jack Campin
Feb 13, 2016, 4:53:59 PM2/13/16
to
>> It turns out though that in Lansing pipes are being replaced now wit
>> a technique she likens to laparoscopy.
One of you really meant "angioplasty".
>> Outside of the home a hole is dug down to the pipe to cut out a piece.
>> Then a thinner, slender pipe is threaded through it into the house.
>> It's been a standard techinque in "fixing" the sewer paupes from
>> homes to the street. The key difference is that these tend to be
>> larger - four to eight inches, as opposed to the clean water ones
>> which are 3/4 or one inch (to homes).
>> homes to the street. The key difference is that these tend to be
>> larger - four to eight inches, as opposed to the clean water ones
>> which are 3/4 or one inch (to homes).
> - Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
> this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
> incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
> inner sleeve is flexible copper.
Don't water pipes often have right angle bends? Surely you'd often
> this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
> incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
> inner sleeve is flexible copper.
break them trying to force a lining through? I saw the scan of my
heart when they did it - the arteries were twist enough that I only
just avoided needing a bypass operation. Maybe Flint's plumbing is
like that?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Alfalfa Bill
Feb 13, 2016, 6:02:54 PM2/13/16
to
On Saturday, February 13, 2016 at 3:53:59 PM UTC-6, Jack Campin wrote:
> >> It turns out though that in Lansing pipes are being replaced now wit
> >> a technique she likens to laparoscopy.
>
> One of you really meant "angioplasty".
Rachel said laparoscopy. I was thinking that the more general medical term endoscopy might be a better choice.
> >> It turns out though that in Lansing pipes are being replaced now wit
> >> a technique she likens to laparoscopy.
>
> One of you really meant "angioplasty".
I wonder if the medical technique was the inspiration for the pipe technique.
> >> Outside of the home a hole is dug down to the pipe to cut out a piece.
> >> Then a thinner, slender pipe is threaded through it into the house.
> >> It's been a standard techinque in "fixing" the sewer paupes from
> >> homes to the street. The key difference is that these tend to be
> >> larger - four to eight inches, as opposed to the clean water ones
> >> which are 3/4 or one inch (to homes).
> > - Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
> > this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
> > incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
> > inner sleeve is flexible copper.
>
> Don't water pipes often have right angle bends? Surely you'd often
> break them trying to force a lining through? I saw the scan of my
> heart when they did it - the arteries were twist enough that I only
> just avoided needing a bypass operation. Maybe Flint's plumbing is
> like that?
danny burstein
Feb 13, 2016, 6:41:04 PM2/13/16
to
In <ff61919f-0e0d-4d53...@googlegroups.com> Alfalfa Bill <tedth...@aol.com> writes:
>> Don't water pipes often have right angle bends? Surely you'd often
>> break them trying to force a lining through? I saw the scan of my
>> heart when they did it - the arteries were twist enough that I only
>> just avoided needing a bypass operation. Maybe Flint's plumbing is
>> like that?
>The demonstration on Rachel's show made the new thin pipe look very
>flexible, but it did not address the situation of a right angle turn.
The service lines, that is, the ones from the street main to house,
>> Don't water pipes often have right angle bends? Surely you'd often
>> break them trying to force a lining through? I saw the scan of my
>> heart when they did it - the arteries were twist enough that I only
>> just avoided needing a bypass operation. Maybe Flint's plumbing is
>> like that?
>The demonstration on Rachel's show made the new thin pipe look very
>flexible, but it did not address the situation of a right angle turn.
tend to be fairly straight as they're installed when the house
is first being built.
Presumably this system is one of those "will work for 95 percent"
of the cases deal. And since it's much cheaper, it leaves
more resources (financial and labor...) for the other five.
Greg Goss
Feb 13, 2016, 7:10:08 PM2/13/16
to
Whiskers <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote:
>On 2016-02-13, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> And it's a bit tricker
>> to snip the house service/street main connection
>> since... this is done "in service" (while th estreet
>> main is active and under pressure).
>>
>> Same with reconnecting the new copper to the street.
>>
>> But it ain't too hard. And a 2 by 4 foot hole is
>> much quicker and easier to restore than a four foot by
>> fifty foot one...
>
>Do they not have 'stop cocks' (effectively individual cut-off valves)
>where the mains water pipe is tapped for each site or house or whatever?
>Just unscrew or unsolder the old pipe from that; little or no digging
>required and no interruption to the mains supply.
When my water main went bad in 1984, the cut-off was near the house.
>On 2016-02-13, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
>> And it's a bit tricker
>> to snip the house service/street main connection
>> since... this is done "in service" (while th estreet
>> main is active and under pressure).
>>
>> Same with reconnecting the new copper to the street.
>>
>> But it ain't too hard. And a 2 by 4 foot hole is
>> much quicker and easier to restore than a four foot by
>> fifty foot one...
>
>Do they not have 'stop cocks' (effectively individual cut-off valves)
>where the mains water pipe is tapped for each site or house or whatever?
>Just unscrew or unsolder the old pipe from that; little or no digging
>required and no interruption to the mains supply.
So the city had to pay for the repair. Someone 35 years earlier had
patched a break with garden hose. The city guy said no way should
garden hose have lasted 35 years, but that was the last date on the
log for my address.
Anyhow, on the Maddow segment it also looked like the cutoff was up by
the house, not out at the road.
>There may be branches in the water pipe inside the premises, eg one for
>'mains pressure' appliances and drinking water taps and another for a
>storage tank for supplying 'low pressure' appliances such as water
>heaters, central heating, flushing of sanitary fixtures, etc. This
>would complicate a 'pipe lining' operation.
to copper for the interior plumbing. I'm not sure what they're doing
inside the house in what was proposed there.
Once the cutoff didn't cut off the leak, they cut off the water main
for the two houses on my street, and strung flexi copper from the
garden house tap on the house above mine OVER my walkway then to my
garden hose tap and the garden hose connections of the house below me.
Then they told me to leave a tap running till spring, and they would
fix it when the ground was softer.
My official connection came into the house, through a pressure reducer
and then to everything else. I don't know if any houses keep multiple
pressure levels.
Because the old crappy water main came DOWN the hill to me, and the
new one came UP the hill from downtown, my shower pressure was crappy
after they ran a new main up my driveway.
>I still think the cheapest approach might be to install a new lead-free
>drinking water pipe from the mains to the kitchen in each dwelling.
>Lead in the washing-only water is, I imagine, much less of a problem.
--
Tim Wright
Feb 13, 2016, 8:33:02 PM2/13/16
to
the water meter. If the meter or pipe before the meter is leaking, it
is the responsibility of the water supplier. If after the meter, the
homeowner.
Bill Turlock
Feb 13, 2016, 8:39:36 PM2/13/16
to
On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 15:10:51 -0600, Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>http://www.pexinfo.com/
Nice. Is there a price premium?
wrote:
>
>http://www.pexinfo.com/
Nice. Is there a price premium?
Alfalfa Bill
Feb 13, 2016, 9:34:23 PM2/13/16
to
Tim Wright
Feb 13, 2016, 9:42:21 PM2/13/16
to
Tim Wright
Feb 13, 2016, 9:45:24 PM2/13/16
to
burst due to repeated freeze/thaw cycles. One of our previous neighbors
had a leak suddenly appear after being in their home for 5 years.
Turned out a nail had penetrated the copper pipe, but it didn't leak
until the nail rusted away. With Pex, if a nail hits it it will leak
immediately, so there are no surprises.
Greg Goss
Feb 13, 2016, 10:26:46 PM2/13/16
to
Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 2/13/2016 6:09 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
>> When my water main went bad in 1984, the cut-off was near the house.
>> So the city had to pay for the repair. Someone 35 years earlier had
>> patched a break with garden hose. The city guy said no way should
>> garden hose have lasted 35 years, but that was the last date on the
>> log for my address.
>On 2/13/2016 6:09 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
>> When my water main went bad in 1984, the cut-off was near the house.
>> So the city had to pay for the repair. Someone 35 years earlier had
>> patched a break with garden hose. The city guy said no way should
>> garden hose have lasted 35 years, but that was the last date on the
>> log for my address.
>In most places the homeowner's responsibility starts at the outlet of
>the water meter. If the meter or pipe before the meter is leaking, it
>is the responsibility of the water supplier. If after the meter, the
>homeowner.
Mine was unmetered. So the responsibility point was the cutoff, about
>the water meter. If the meter or pipe before the meter is leaking, it
>is the responsibility of the water supplier. If after the meter, the
>homeowner.
three feet from my house in the middle of my driveway.
Charles Bishop
Feb 13, 2016, 11:07:42 PM2/13/16
to
In article <bogus-F54391....@four.schnuerpel.eu>,
is "usually" a straight run from street to house/building, but of course
there can be ells or tees, and I don't know how new pipe (plastic) could
be pulled through those.
Once in the house, the lines are 3/4" and 1/2" lines for the branches,
again with many tees and ells for branch lines.
It may be that a small diameter, 1/2" or 3/8" plastic line could be
pulled through the old plumbing (allowing for corrosion inside the
pipes). The flow rate would be much lower, but, Hey Presto, no lead.
If the houses are almost not worth the cost of the new lines run this
way (Don't put $50,000 worth of work into a $20,000 house[1]), then I'd
dig up the main line and then run the new plumbing along the outside of
the house, punching into walls as necessary and running the new plumbing
exposed on (E) walls. Not pretty but the water would be clean. If the
house has a raised foundation, it might be easier still and more pipe
would be hidden. Plastic might be more expensive, but easier to run.
Of course, this is speculation, based on construction I've seen here and
am familiar with. There are bound to be differences.
[1] The cost needs to be /a/ consideration, but at the end, the work
needs to be done, even if it is "cheaper" to tear down and build new, or
mobile homes installed.
--
charles
Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> It turns out though that in Lansing pipes are being replaced now wit
> >> a technique she likens to laparoscopy.
>
> One of you really meant "angioplasty".
>
> >> Outside of the home a hole is dug down to the pipe to cut out a piece.
> >> Then a thinner, slender pipe is threaded through it into the house.
> >> It's been a standard techinque in "fixing" the sewer paupes from
> >> homes to the street. The key difference is that these tend to be
> >> larger - four to eight inches, as opposed to the clean water ones
> >> which are 3/4 or one inch (to homes).
> > - Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
> > this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
> > incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
> > inner sleeve is flexible copper.
>
> Don't water pipes often have right angle bends? Surely you'd often
> break them trying to force a lining through? I saw the scan of my
> heart when they did it - the arteries were twist enough that I only
> just avoided needing a bypass operation. Maybe Flint's plumbing is
> like that?
In general, the main line to the house is 3/4 or 1" pipe. The main line
> >> It turns out though that in Lansing pipes are being replaced now wit
> >> a technique she likens to laparoscopy.
>
> One of you really meant "angioplasty".
>
> >> Outside of the home a hole is dug down to the pipe to cut out a piece.
> >> Then a thinner, slender pipe is threaded through it into the house.
> >> It's been a standard techinque in "fixing" the sewer paupes from
> >> homes to the street. The key difference is that these tend to be
> >> larger - four to eight inches, as opposed to the clean water ones
> >> which are 3/4 or one inch (to homes).
> > - Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
> > this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
> > incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
> > inner sleeve is flexible copper.
>
> Don't water pipes often have right angle bends? Surely you'd often
> break them trying to force a lining through? I saw the scan of my
> heart when they did it - the arteries were twist enough that I only
> just avoided needing a bypass operation. Maybe Flint's plumbing is
> like that?
is "usually" a straight run from street to house/building, but of course
there can be ells or tees, and I don't know how new pipe (plastic) could
be pulled through those.
Once in the house, the lines are 3/4" and 1/2" lines for the branches,
again with many tees and ells for branch lines.
It may be that a small diameter, 1/2" or 3/8" plastic line could be
pulled through the old plumbing (allowing for corrosion inside the
pipes). The flow rate would be much lower, but, Hey Presto, no lead.
If the houses are almost not worth the cost of the new lines run this
way (Don't put $50,000 worth of work into a $20,000 house[1]), then I'd
dig up the main line and then run the new plumbing along the outside of
the house, punching into walls as necessary and running the new plumbing
exposed on (E) walls. Not pretty but the water would be clean. If the
house has a raised foundation, it might be easier still and more pipe
would be hidden. Plastic might be more expensive, but easier to run.
Of course, this is speculation, based on construction I've seen here and
am familiar with. There are bound to be differences.
[1] The cost needs to be /a/ consideration, but at the end, the work
needs to be done, even if it is "cheaper" to tear down and build new, or
mobile homes installed.
--
charles
Charles Bishop
Feb 13, 2016, 11:10:15 PM2/13/16
to
In article <yuednaNTLIDfdyLL...@supernews.com>,
right away, as I found when I was installing tile backing in a condo.
Lucky, it was on the first floor, over the garage, and the repair was
easy and done in 4-5 hours, shutting off the water only the the units in
that "stack".
charles, actually, not my fault
Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/13/2016 7:39 PM, Bill Turlock wrote:
> > On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 15:10:51 -0600, Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> http://www.pexinfo.com/
> >
> >
> > Nice. Is there a price premium?
> >
> Cheaper than copper, easier and faster to install than copper, and won't
> burst due to repeated freeze/thaw cycles. One of our previous neighbors
> had a leak suddenly appear after being in their home for 5 years.
> Turned out a nail had penetrated the copper pipe, but it didn't leak
> until the nail rusted away. With Pex, if a nail hits it it will leak
> immediately, so there are no surprises.
With copper pipe, when a screw penetrates the copper pipe, it will leak
> On 2/13/2016 7:39 PM, Bill Turlock wrote:
> > On Sat, 13 Feb 2016 15:10:51 -0600, Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> http://www.pexinfo.com/
> >
> >
> > Nice. Is there a price premium?
> >
> Cheaper than copper, easier and faster to install than copper, and won't
> burst due to repeated freeze/thaw cycles. One of our previous neighbors
> had a leak suddenly appear after being in their home for 5 years.
> Turned out a nail had penetrated the copper pipe, but it didn't leak
> until the nail rusted away. With Pex, if a nail hits it it will leak
> immediately, so there are no surprises.
right away, as I found when I was installing tile backing in a condo.
Lucky, it was on the first floor, over the garage, and the repair was
easy and done in 4-5 hours, shutting off the water only the the units in
that "stack".
charles, actually, not my fault
danny burstein
Feb 13, 2016, 11:19:14 PM2/13/16
to
In <ctbishop-1A3161...@news.individual.net> Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> writes:
>It may be that a small diameter, 1/2" or 3/8" plastic line could be
>pulled through the old plumbing (allowing for corrosion inside the
>pipes). The flow rate would be much lower, but, Hey Presto, no lead.
Keep in mind we're talking fifty year old (or 75 or more)
>It may be that a small diameter, 1/2" or 3/8" plastic line could be
>pulled through the old plumbing (allowing for corrosion inside the
>pipes). The flow rate would be much lower, but, Hey Presto, no lead.
water feed pipes. While their original interior diameter
might have been 3/4 inch, we've got decades of corrosion
and gunk of all sorts inside now, so the equivalent diamter
might only be 1/4 inch.
Pushing that steel cable through pretty much clears the
garbage out of the way. And then pulling in the new
copper tubing does some more.
So basically (number for illustration):
Original diameter back in 1950: 0.75 inches
effective diameter six months ago: 0.25
diameter with new copper sleeve: 0.65
So is it as good as original spec? No. Is it much
better than last month? Hell, yes.
Also... if it's an actual lead pipe that's being
reamed out, it might (I don't know...) be soft and
malleable enough that you could push the cable through,
then pull back a _bigger_ cable and actually split
the old lead pipe apart, and pull a full sized or
even larger copper pipe on the return trip.
Greg Goss
Feb 14, 2016, 12:09:28 AM2/14/16
to
Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
forties) was galvanized steel. This doesn't bend easily, so there
must have been at least one ell at the bottom of that feed.
As I mentioned elsewhere, one bit of the main feeding my house and my
neighbors had been fitted as rubber garden hose which was OK for 35
years. The city guy in charge of the repair was disgusted.
> Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Don't water pipes often have right angle bends? Surely you'd often
>> break them trying to force a lining through? I saw the scan of my
>> heart when they did it - the arteries were twist enough that I only
>> just avoided needing a bypass operation. Maybe Flint's plumbing is
>> like that?
>
>In general, the main line to the house is 3/4 or 1" pipe. The main line
>is "usually" a straight run from street to house/building, but of course
>there can be ells or tees, and I don't know how new pipe (plastic) could
>be pulled through those.
>
The feed to the house I owned in the eighties (built in the early
>
>> Don't water pipes often have right angle bends? Surely you'd often
>> break them trying to force a lining through? I saw the scan of my
>> heart when they did it - the arteries were twist enough that I only
>> just avoided needing a bypass operation. Maybe Flint's plumbing is
>> like that?
>
>In general, the main line to the house is 3/4 or 1" pipe. The main line
>is "usually" a straight run from street to house/building, but of course
>there can be ells or tees, and I don't know how new pipe (plastic) could
>be pulled through those.
>
forties) was galvanized steel. This doesn't bend easily, so there
must have been at least one ell at the bottom of that feed.
As I mentioned elsewhere, one bit of the main feeding my house and my
neighbors had been fitted as rubber garden hose which was OK for 35
years. The city guy in charge of the repair was disgusted.
Hactar
Feb 20, 2016, 6:08:06 PM2/20/16
to
In article <zb6dnZBnWb9ABiLL...@supernews.com>,
They're conductive, therefore they develop pinholes. If this happens in
the block, you're gonna have a bad day. My parents found this out the
hard way -- there is now one working spigot, where when the house was
built (1984) there were three or so. The pipes leading to the others
have been used to replace lightning-damaged pipes. Chipping through the
block to actually _fix_ the leak (and then repouring the section you took
away) is prohibitively expensive.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP ebmanda.redirectme.net:81
CAPRICORN: The stars say you're an exciting and wonderful person... but
you know they're lying. If I were you, I'd lock my doors and windows
and never never never never never leave my house again. -- Weird Al
Tim Wright <tlwri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/13/2016 1:17 PM, Pierre Jelenc wrote:
> > In article <n9mkub$bmr$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> - Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
> >> this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
> >> incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
> >> inner sleeve is flexible copper.
> >
> > Copper? That makes little sense; if the water is acidic and soft enough to
> > leach lead, it will leach copper. Even high-school students know that:
> > https://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0522.pdf
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> Pex™ is much better than copper. Virtually all new homes are being
> plumbed with Pex™.
>
> http://www.pexinfo.com/
Also, if you live in a lightning-prone area, copper pipes are a bad idea.
> On 2/13/2016 1:17 PM, Pierre Jelenc wrote:
> > In article <n9mkub$bmr$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
> > danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> - Maddow's report was the first time I've heard of
> >> this being done on the smaller 3/4 or one inch
> >> incoming water pipes. And with these the replacement
> >> inner sleeve is flexible copper.
> >
> > Copper? That makes little sense; if the water is acidic and soft enough to
> > leach lead, it will leach copper. Even high-school students know that:
> > https://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0522.pdf
> >
> > Pierre
> >
> Pex™ is much better than copper. Virtually all new homes are being
> plumbed with Pex™.
>
> http://www.pexinfo.com/
They're conductive, therefore they develop pinholes. If this happens in
the block, you're gonna have a bad day. My parents found this out the
hard way -- there is now one working spigot, where when the house was
built (1984) there were three or so. The pipes leading to the others
have been used to replace lightning-damaged pipes. Chipping through the
block to actually _fix_ the leak (and then repouring the section you took
away) is prohibitively expensive.
--
-eben QebWe...@vTerYizUonI.nOetP ebmanda.redirectme.net:81
CAPRICORN: The stars say you're an exciting and wonderful person... but
you know they're lying. If I were you, I'd lock my doors and windows
and never never never never never leave my house again. -- Weird Al
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