the great gatsby
hanna
i have a friend named lanis who teaches sophmore english.. currently, he is
teaching the _ the great gatsby _ , and when we were driving to lunch the other
day he heard phone call #27 in my car.. he said it reminded him of the little
poem on the title page of the book. "then wear the gold hat, if that will move
her; if you can bounce high, bounce for her too, till she cry "lover,
gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, i must have you ! " i made a copy of the song
for him.. and he brought it into his class today and played it for his
students. they dug it.
he told me one of them said, "mr. wilson.. we didn't know you liked cool
music."
:)
hanna
- your skin and bones
turn into something beautiful
you know i love you so -
Jeddest
>day he heard phone call #27 in my car.. he said it reminded him of the little
>poem on the title page of the book. "then wear the gold hat, if that will
>move her; if you can bounce high, bounce for her too, till she cry "lover,
>gold-hatted, high-bouncing lover, i must have you ! "
That little poem was pretty much the inspiration for the whole song, actually.
--Jarrod--
Lauranator
>music."
>
>:)
>
>hanna
Awww Way to spread the Admiral Twin love!!
Laura :D
Dallas Koehn
>> "then wear the gold hat, if that will
>> move her; if you can bounce high, bounce for
>> her too, till she cry "lover, gold-hatted,
>> high-bouncing lover, i must have you ! "
To which Jed replied:
> That little poem was pretty much the inspiration
> for the whole song, actually.
Well, I'm glad _something_ worthwhile came out of that damned book.
--Dallas, who likes a lot of 'required' literature and yet thinks
oh-so-little
of that book...
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Linda
> >> "then wear the gold hat, if that will
> >> move her; if you can bounce high, bounce for
> >> her too, till she cry "lover, gold-hatted,
> >> high-bouncing lover, i must have you ! "
>
> To which Jed replied:
> > That little poem was pretty much the inspiration
> > for the whole song, actually.
> Well, I'm glad _something_ worthwhile came out of that damned book.
> --Dallas, who likes a lot of 'required' literature and yet thinks
> oh-so-little
> of that book...
>
thematic differences?
I have very mixed feelings about most of the required reading I've been
subjected to. I liked all of the Shakespeare, hated "Silas Marner", so-so
with Hardy ("Return of the Native"), didn't like "Lady of the Lake",
although I think I might now. I did like most of the short stories by Poe,
Faulkner, O. Henry, Twain, Melville that I got one semester. I didn't like
Dickens's "Great Expectations" till I got to Miss Havisham, and then I was
hooked. Actually she's about all I remember about it now. I liked most of
the plays; "Death of a Salesman", "Waiting for Godot", "Who's Afraid of
Virginia Wolfe".
The only piece of required reading I've had serious objections to was
something my #2 son was required to read when he was in freshman English.
The course was supposed to be The American Novel. It was taught by the
football coach. He chose to study "Brian's Song." It wasn't even a novel,
it was a screenplay. Did I mention that this was in Texas?
So what required reading did you (global *you*, I mean everyone) like?
Linda
hanna
>Well, I'm glad _something_ worthwhile came out of that damned book.
>
>--Dallas, who likes a lot of 'required' literature and yet thinks
>oh-so-little
>of that book...
::scowl:: i adore that book.. one of my favorites, for sure.
"no amount of fire or freshness can challenge what a man will store up in his
ghostly heart."
hanna
>with Hardy ("Return of the Native")
love.. LOVE that book.
>Melville
i still have nightmares about _bartleby the scrivner_.. never though id make it
through that one.
>So what required reading did you (global *you*, I mean everyone) like?
thought _the odyssey_ was great.. as well as _jane eyre_, _drown_ (by junot
diaz, who is an aboslute GEM.. ), _six degrees of separation_, _l'etrangere_,
_To kill a mockingbird_, _a prayer for owen meany_, .. once i made it through
the beginning really enjoyed _house of mirth_, what else? _all the kings
men_.._le rhinoceros_, .. obviously _gatsby_..
.. don't get me started on the poetry ! and of course theres all the
shakespeare... :)
hanna
who re-read _gatsby_ today.
Linda
> >with Hardy ("Return of the Native")>
> love.. LOVE that book.
I think I would have liked it better if it had not been required. My
teacher and I had differences of opinion, and I had to respond to what I
knew she wanted on the tests if I wanted to play the grade game. It made me
a bit resentful. I liked "Far From The Madding Crowd" (on my own) better.
>
> >Melville
> i still have nightmares about _bartleby the scrivner_.. never though id
make it
> through that one.
That's the one like. It's so perverse.
>
> >So what required reading did you (global *you*, I mean everyone) like?
>
> thought _the odyssey_ was great.. as well as _jane eyre_, _drown_ (by
junot
> diaz, who is an aboslute GEM.. ), _six degrees of separation_,
_l'etrangere_,
> _To kill a mockingbird_, _a prayer for owen meany_, .. once i made it
through
> the beginning really enjoyed _house of mirth_, what else? _all the kings
> men_.._le rhinoceros_, .. obviously _gatsby_..
>
Some good stuff there. I didn't like the Odyssey when I read it the frst
time in 8th grade. It was a lousy way to read, they wouldn't let us take the
books home from school, and didn't want us to *read ahead*. Like we might
have an independent thought or something. Anyway, I got the book from the
library and read ahead anyway, but by then I was anti Odyssey because the
teacher was so gushy about what incredibly important literature it was.
Sometimes I'm stubborn to my own detriment. I read "Jane Eyre" , "To Kill A
Mockingbird", and "The Great Gatsby" on my own and I do like all of them.
Keep meaning to read "A prayer for Owen Meany"... Thanks for the reminder.
> .. don't get me started on the poetry ! and of course theres all the
> shakespeare... :)
I do remember your quotes from Leaves of Grass....Brooklyn Ferry I believe.
>
> hanna
> who re-read _gatsby_ today.
I pick it up every once in a while and read a section. Usually the last
chapter. About a year or so ago I reread the whole thing in one day, and
there were things in there that I hadn't remembered that were quite
interesting. Of course the poem at the beginning always makes me smile now
because I have a particular bouncer to envision.
Linda
susan m
> Well, I'm glad _something_ worthwhile came out of that damned book.
------------
But what about all the _worthy_ late-into-the-night
'discussions' you've had about this novel, huh?
Don't those count for something?
I like the depth of character that Fitzgerald developed in
between the lines and through Nick's observations....Plus
it's such a memorable tale of unrequited love. <blows
nose into a lacy imported hanky like one Daisy
would've used to dab at her brow and throat>
Maybe it's more the film adaptations that have soured you?
I think I remember you saying you saw the Redford/Farrow
version? Not good. (the recent A&E portrayal of Gatsby the man
was very flat, but there was believable poignancy by the
fellow who played Nick ---the actor who was the stepbrother
in "Clueless".... and for the first time, I felt compassion
for Tom)
> --Dallas, who likes a lot of 'required' literature and yet thinks
> oh-so-little of that book...
susan, who is rather surprised at Dallas because the
slim novel speaks volumes about American society at
a particularly precarious time in history, but also senses his
established devil's advocacy regarding this topic. ;-)
Shona
>--Dallas, who likes a lot of 'required' literature and yet thinks
>oh-so-little of that book...
I am not so much a fan of required reading. It takes all of the joy out of
it.
That was one of the negatives on my required list, too. Especially cuz I
think
that's what we were reading when my English teacher called me stupid.
:::growls:::
My positive required list includes Fahrenheit...um, whatevter the number
is
(and I prolly spelled that wrong, too), Animal Farm, Brave New World, and To
Kill a Mockingbird.
I realize nobody asked, though, so I will move on... =)
Shona
Shona
>So what required reading did you (global *you*, I mean everyone) like?
Whoa...I'm psycho, er, ic. I already answered that.
But I will add, I HATED Great Expectations. I think the only time I've slept
through class was after we read the book and had to watch th emovie (the old
one.)
I didn't have Cather in the Rye on my other list, though. I liked that one.
OK, OK...so I liked a LOT of the books that they made me read...but being
FORCED to read something STILL takes all of the enjoyment out of reading it.
Little Women is the only book I really loved reading since I outgrew the
Babysitters Club. LoL!!!
Shona<--simple mind
Jeddest
To begin with (as I've said before) _The Great Gatsby_ is my favorite American
novel ever. Other "required reading" gems include: _The Old Man and the Sea_
(Ernest Hemingway), _The Turn of the Screw_ (Henry James), _Dubliners_ (James
Joyce), _Light in August_ (William Faulkner), _Heart of Darkness_ (Joseph
Conrad), _A Farewll to Arms_ (Hemingway), _If Not Now, When?_ (Primo Levi),
_The Red Badge of Courage_ (Stephen Crane), _The Canturbury Tales_ (Geoffrey
Chaucer) and _Beowulf_ (a bunch of ancient Celtic folks).
And then there were the required reading short stories that inspired
me...probably too many to mention, although off the top of my head I recall "A
Rose for Emily" (Faulkner), "Sounder" (William H. Armstrong), "The Pearl" (John
Steinbeck), "The Telltale Heart" and "The Masque of the Red Death" (Edgar Allen
Poe), "The Open Boat" (Stephen Crane), and "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty"
(James Thurber).
And then, of course, there were the books I read in college that *weren't*
required reading but hugely inspired me nonetheless: _The Subterraneans_ and
_On the Road_ (Jack Kerouac), _Without Feathers_ (Woody Allen), _The Catcher in
the Rye_ and _Nine Stories_ (J.D. Salinger), _The Martian Chronicles_ (Ray
Bradbury) and _Slaughterhouse Five_ (my first Kurt Vonnegut experience...I've
had many since then and recommend them ALL).
As Hanna said, don't even get me started on the poetry that's wowed me over the
course of my life. That's a whole other thread or three.
Anyhow. Blah blah blah.
--Jarrod--
Aaron K. Thompson
<< So what required reading did you (global *you*, I mean everyone) like? >>
What an opportunity for me to "plug" my favorite horror author, Ruby Jean
Jensen. She has written 30 books, with over 2 million of them in
circulation. She lives in Arkansas, and I've been to her place a couple of
times. Feel free to check out the website I operate for her:
http://www.geocities.com/rubyfan
-Aaron
Kris
>is
>(and I prolly spelled that wrong, too), Animal Farm, Brave New World, and To
>Kill a Mockingbird.
> I realize nobody asked, though, so I will move on... =)
>Shona
>
I like those as well, particularly 'Farenheit 451' and 'To Kill a Mockingbird.'
Not a big fan of 'Gatbsy,' though. It didn't reach me.. My favorite would
probably be 'Siddhartha.'
Kris
^^^^
Please don't put your life in the hands of a rock and roll band who'll throw it
all away.
"I've never really known what I was talking about. I'm not so sure I believe
in anything I've said. I just like to play devil's advocate."
Lauranator
Nice website! Cute picture of you on there, too!! :)
Laura :D
mousie4
> Hanna (I think) was speaking of the Great Gatsby which contains:
>
> >> "then wear the gold hat, if that will
> >> move her; if you can bounce high, bounce for
> >> her too, till she cry "lover, gold-hatted,
> >> high-bouncing lover, i must have you ! "
>
> To which Jed replied:
>
> > That little poem was pretty much the inspiration
> > for the whole song, actually.
>
> Well, I'm glad _something_ worthwhile came out of that damned book.
>
> --Dallas, who likes a lot of 'required' literature and yet thinks
> oh-so-little
> of that book...
I'm afraid I must agree with you, though I think we're outnumbered. I
disliked most of the characters in the book and therefore couldn't care less
what happened to them. As a love story, I found it bland and lifeless.
Claudia
Linda
> disliked most of the characters in the book and therefore couldn't care
less
> what happened to them. As a love story, I found it bland and lifeless.
>
> Claudia
>
cynical days I can grow impatient with Gatsby's choice of the object of his
affection. Wishing he could have been smarter. But I guess being human he
couldn't help who he should fall in love with. His total devotion in
pursuit of that love is complete. Selfless and unconditional. You have to
be willing to accept the flaws of his choice, and recognize that his
greatness was in his commitment; a concept more readily embraced by
romantics than realists I suspect.
I can readily understand someone falling in love with an image of someone,
an ideal person, and building up that image in their mind till it is
actually bigger than the reality. Gatsby believed in that picture of
perfection, and gave his all to pursue and protect it.
The picture was an illusion, but his devotion was pure.
Linda
susan m
Shona replied:
> >--Dallas, who likes a lot of 'required' literature and yet thinks
> >oh-so-little of that book...
> I am not so much a fan of required reading. It takes all
of the joy out of it.
But I think, for a while at least, we were becoming less and
less a nation of readers.....if it wasn't for required reading lists
many people would never pick up a book, especially
those that are the classics or are based on actuality.
A teacher who slides or substitutes lighter fare on reading
lists is doing kids an injustice and devaluing capabilities
before kids are even given the chance to prove themselves.
I've made waves when I've seen my kids' teachers neglecting
literature and biographies.
>That was one of the negatives on my required list, too. Especially
cuz I think that's what we were reading when my English teacher
called me stupid. :::growls:::
I'm really, really sorry you had such an experience --just
shouldn't be that way at all....very different than mine as
my high school lit teacher was vibrant, eccentric...and
demanding. At first many in the class were put-off and
reluctant...but by term end, we'd had some great discussions,
knew each other and ourselves better. (but I can appreciate your
remembrances, because I had some real jerk-offs for math teachers, whose
attitude did nothing but reinforce my dislike for math.)
> My positive required list includes Fahrenheit...um, whatever the number
is (and I prolly spelled that wrong, too), Animal Farm,
Brave New World, and To Kill a Mockingbird.
> I realize nobody asked, though, so I will move on... =)
> Shona
Why those are some of my favorites, too, Shona! Along
with Catcher in the Rye, Catch 22, The Stranger, Lord of the Flies,
Great Expectations, Gulliver's Travels (and Swift's essay A Modest
Proposal), Main Street, Johnny Got His Gun and titles like Walden
(especially in relation to some of the poems and short stories [esp.,
Whitman and Irving's works] at the time), Uncle Tom's Cabin,
The Diary of Anne Frank, The Invisible Man (Ellison), Silent
Spring, The Agony and The Ecstasy, Lust for Life. I had less
interest in some required titles (Beowulf, Silas Marner, Red Badge of
Courage, The Scarlet Letter, Member of the Wedding, Of Mice and Men, Grapes
of Wrath, Call of the Wild, For Whom the Bell Tolls, The Glass Menagerie,
Profiles in Courage ) but some of these and their authors will be alluded to
in conversations/written articles later in your life, so you'll see at some
point why the works are included. I have better appreciation for some of the
realism and historical relevance in these novels, now that I'm older. I
should reread most of them.
The same teacher I mentioned turned me on to poetry
and English literature, enough to influence me into majoring
in English.
susan
susan m
> > what happened to them. As a love story, I found it bland and lifeless.
> > Claudia
> As a love story I found it tragic, but noble. I admit that on my more
> cynical days I can grow impatient with Gatsby's choice of the object of
his affection. Wishing he could have been smarter. But I guess being human
he couldn't help who he should fall in love with. His total devotion in
pursuit of that love is complete. Selfless and unconditional. You have to
be willing to accept the flaws of his choice, and recognize that his
greatness was in his commitment; a concept more readily embraced by
romantics than realists I suspect.
:::mentally throws herself off a cliff in the
name of all foolish star-crossed lovers::::
susan<---really got into that part of the tale
hanna
ive yet to read that book.. most of my friends said that they also liked it
much more than _return of the native_.. so i guess i ought to give it a try,
eh? :)
>
>Some good stuff there. I didn't like the Odyssey when I read it the frst
>time in 8th grade.
i read it for the first time in 8th grade, as well. afterwards we had to write
our own odyssey, which i loved.. my grandfather, who was a journalist for the
pittsburgh press his entire life and has always encouraged my writing, bound a
copy of my odyssey.. it would be interesting to re-read it sometime. i cant
even remeber half of what i wrote.
>It was a lousy way to read, they wouldn't let us take the
>books home from school, and didn't want us to *read ahead*. Like we might
>have an independent thought or something.
thats the most awful thing ive ever heard !
>Keep meaning to read "A prayer for Owen Meany"... Thanks for the reminder.
either that or _a widow for one year_ (also by john irving). they're both good
for their own separate reasons.. but my are they fantastic reads.
>
>I do remember your quotes from Leaves of Grass....Brooklyn Ferry I believe.
indeed. i have a secret love of litterature concerning NYC...
hanna
hanna
>Joyce),
my suggestion to you : read _ulysses_ by joyce. . and then go to dublin on
bloomsday. we were fortunate to be in dublin on bloomsday this past summer.. it
was incredibly fascinating. people dress up like characters in the book and
walk around the city the whole day.. theres this parade of people dressed up
who ride their bikes around the town.. it was fun. :)
>The Canturbury Tales_ (Geoffrey
>Chaucer)
theres this woman in new haven who walks around reciting litterature for people
who will give her a few bucks.. we call her the shakespeare lady :). anyway..
she'll recite huge sections of the canturbury tales for you if you ask her too.
shes pretty damn cool.
>_The Catcher in
>the Rye_
ohh cant believe i forgot that one. this was definitely one of my favorites..
Dallas Koehn
>
> I am not so much a fan of required reading. It takes all of
> the joy out of it.
Ah, yes... but most people won't ever read the books to bring that joy
unless
they ARE required. Now THAT'S irony.
> That was one of the negatives on my required list, too. Especially
> cuz I think that's what we were reading when my English teacher
> called me stupid. :::growls:::
Yeah, that's normally a rather frowned-upon teaching method. I gave up
throwing pieces of broken glass for the same reason, although I honestly
don't
believe they do the damage of one comment like that.
> My positive required list includes Fahrenheit...um, whatevter
> the number is
:-) 451. Yes... excellent.
> (and I prolly spelled that wrong, too), Animal Farm, Brave
> New World, and To Kill a Mockingbird.
All excellent. Well, OK--I didn't get all the way through BNW... don't
remember why. I think it was a timing thing. I still think TKAM is one of
the
best 'required' books out there.
> I realize nobody asked, though, so I will move on... =)
On the contrary, someone did specifically ask. And so far your answer is far
more encouraging than some ;-)
--Sneeze7x, judging others by their literary tastes...
MariposaLoca
>my high school lit teacher was vibrant, eccentric...and
>demanding.
>
>The same teacher I mentioned turned me on to poetry
>and English literature, enough to influence me into majoring
>in English.
That's pretty cool. My World Lit teacher was more concerned with being a
friend to the "in-crowd" than a teacher and I really don't remember a thing we
read. We didn't do much poetry, either, but that was ok with me. I still
don't get into poetry much - unless it's the musical kind. ;-)
Marci
Watch your thoughts; they become your words.
Watch your words; they become your actions.
Watch your actions; they become your habits.
Watch your habits; they become your character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
MariposaLoca
>but being
>FORCED to read something STILL takes all of the enjoyment out of reading it.
I agree. For some reason, I can't remember the books and stories I read in
school, but I can remember plenty of ones that I chose to read in my spare
time.
>Little Women is the only book I really loved reading since I outgrew the
>Babysitters Club. LoL!!!
>
>Shona<--simple mind
LOL Aw, no you're not!
I just got done with "Left Behind" of the infamous "Left Behind Series." It
was the first fiction book I've read in a looonggg time.
MaryLM
> with.
No, but he *could* control his actions.
> His total devotion in pursuit of that love is complete. Selfless and
> unconditional.
On the contrary, I found it completely selfish.
(Fun discussion, eh?) :)
Mary
<><
Aaron K. Thompson
<< Nice website! Cute picture of you on there, too!! :) >>
Hehe... Thanks.
-Aaron
hanna
>cynical days I can grow impatient with Gatsby's choice of the object of his
>affection. Wishing he could have been smarter. But I guess being human he
>couldn't help who he should fall in love with. His total devotion in
>pursuit of that love is complete. Selfless and unconditional. You have to
>be willing to accept the flaws of his choice, and recognize that his
>greatness was in his commitment; a concept more readily embraced by
>romantics than realists I suspect.
>
>I can readily understand someone falling in love with an image of someone,
>an ideal person, and building up that image in their mind till it is
>actually bigger than the reality. Gatsby believed in that picture of
>perfection, and gave his all to pursue and protect it.
>The picture was an illusion, but his devotion was pure.
>
>Linda
i dont think gatsby really ought to get credit for changing completely for
daisy.. james gatz already had the idea in him at a very young age (pre-daisy)
that he wanted to be something which he believed was bigger and better (even if
it was completely superficial.. ).. thus he completely changed his identity,
starting with the metamorphasis that occured after his time spent on the yacht
with dan cody.. at the end of the book, gatsby's father talks about how he
always knew gatsby would change the world.
james gatz always had goals which he wanted to achieve.. and really daisy was
only one part of those goals.
... or at least that ones way to interpret it. ;)
hanna <-- also reads it as a great love story :)
hanna
why selfish?
hanna
Linda
> > with.
> No, but he *could* control his actions.
> > His total devotion in pursuit of that love is complete. Selfless and
> > unconditional.
> On the contrary, I found it completely selfish.
> (Fun discussion, eh?) :)
> Mary
> <><
Um, yeah, I think it will be. What actions do you find to be contrary to
his unconditional love for Daisy?
As for being selfish, I sure don't see that. Sure he wanted her to love
him, but mostly he just loved her. And the proof of his selfless love was
in taking the blame for her careless act. That couldn't be for his
benefit, it was only out of love for her. Please explain what you find
selfish.
Now if you are saying Gatsby was not a good guy, or he shouldn't have been
involved in some of his shady dealings, or that the love wasn't worthy of
his devotion, I can see where those arguments can be made. But for the
sincerity and completeness of his devotion, I do not see where he wavered.
Linda
Shona
>an ideal person, and building up that image in their mind till it is
>actually bigger than the reality. Gatsby believed in that picture of
>perfection, and gave his all to pursue and protect it.
>The picture was an illusion, but his devotion was pure.
Wow...do I know that one. I don't remember much about that book other than I
didn't like it. I might have liked it more if I understood it...perhaps I
should read it again.
Shona
If it's sanity you're after, there's no recipe like Laughter.
Laugh it off. - Henry Rutherford Elliot
Shona
>But I think, for a while at least, we were becoming less and
>less a nation of readers.....if it wasn't for required reading lists
>many people would never pick up a book, especially
>those that are the classics or are based on actuality.
I never read anymore...by the time I get home from class and rehearsals and
get my homework done, I don't have the energy or brain power to stay up long
enough to read.
>I'm really, really sorry you had such an experience --just
>shouldn't be that way at all....
Yeah...I was angry. I was, like, I am NOT stupid, and how DARE you say such
a
thing to me! And it was all because I asked a question. What kind of teacher
tells you you're stupid for asking a question?!?! Tht was my sophomore year.
My frosh and junior teachers were cool, but then my senior year my teacher
was
not-so-smart.
Shona
>unless they ARE required. Now THAT'S irony.
So true...
>All excellent. Well, OK--I didn't get all the way through BNW... don't
>remember why. I think it was a timing thing. I still think TKAM is one of
>the best 'required' books out there.
We had to read BNW and The Stranger over the summer...that was not a fun
idea.
Summer homework...but I actually did get through BNW, and I thought it was
pretty cool.
>On the contrary, someone did specifically ask. And so far your answer is far
>more encouraging than some ;-)
I hadn't gotten to that post yet when I said it. =)
Shona
>Watch your thoughts; they become your words.
>Watch your words; they become your actions.
>Watch your actions; they become your habits.
>Watch your habits; they become your character.
>Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
I love love LOVE this...it has been up in our dance studio forever, and I
got
a successories picture of it for my b-day (I love that store)
But alas, I digress...
Shona.
Shona
>
>I just got done with "Left Behind" of the infamous "Left Behind Series." It
>was the first fiction book I've read in a looonggg time.
It's seems that I don't have time to read anymore...strange that college
keeps
me too busy to read, dontcha think?
Shona
Linda
> daisy.. james gatz already had the idea in him at a very young age
(pre-daisy)
> that he wanted to be something which he believed was bigger and better
(even if
> it was completely superficial.. ).. thus he completely changed his
identity,
> starting with the metamorphasis that occured after his time spent on the
yacht
> with dan cody.. at the end of the book, gatsby's father talks about how he
> always knew gatsby would change the world.
> james gatz always had goals which he wanted to achieve.. and really daisy
was
> only one part of those goals.
> ... or at least that ones way to interpret it. ;)
> hanna <-- also reads it as a great love story :)
Well the way I saw it was that Gatsby was ambitious and restless as a youth,
and that was what caused him to notice Dan Cody and take advantage of an
opportunity to improve his station in life. He worked around the wealthy
elite and was fascinated with their life. But when he met Daisy, and she
was the personification of the idle rich lifestyle, she came to represent
all that he found to be desirable and beautiful. When she failed to wait
for him to come home from the war, and instead married a wealthy man, he
didn't see that as her mistake, or her not loving him, but as his failing to
be worthy of her needs, and he set about making himself into someone worthy
of her love. Which to him meant he had to be not just rich but incredibly,
obviously, ostentatiously rich. He did love Daisy completely, and I think
irrationally, and I think it was as much for what she represented as what
she was. But he did think that was the highest ideal. But ultimately he
would have stayed and taken the blame for her, proving his love for her to
be above any personal goals for position, power, money.
I haven't always seen this devotion as a virtue. When the object of such
devotion is unworthy it tends to make the obsession seem wrong. But taking
out the right or wrong of his ideal, and looking at just the devotion and
loyalty to which he applies himself to serving his ideal, this woman he
loves, he assumes romantic hero status. For me.
Linda
MariposaLoca
>
>It's seems that I don't have time to read anymore...strange that college
>keeps
>me too busy to read, dontcha think?
LOL!! Strange? noooo.... that's the way it is most of the time, I think. Of
course... there are those students that seems to be partying all the time... I
don't know what kind of majors they have, if any.
Marci
Jeddest
>out the right or wrong of his ideal, and looking at just the devotion and
>loyalty to which he applies himself to serving his ideal, this woman he
>loves, he assumes romantic hero status. For me.
Ditto.
--Jed--
susan m
>>that he wanted to be something which he believed was bigger and better
(even if it was completely superficial.. ).. thus he completely changed his
identity, starting with the metamorphasis that occured after his time spent
on the yacht with dan cody.. at the end of the book, gatsby's father talks
about how he always knew gatsby would change the world. james gatz always
had goals which he wanted to achieve.. and really daisy was only one part of
those goals.
> > ... or at least that ones way to interpret it. ;)
> > hanna <-- also reads it as a great love story :)
-----------
I had to go retrieve my copy to satisfy a pang, and opened it
to one of the places where I've turned down a corner on a
favorite passage... one which includes Gatsby even admitting a remembrance
aloud to Nick, in their last visit with one another:
"well, there I was, off my ambitions, getting in deeper in love
every minute, and all of a sudden I didn't care. What was the
use of doing great things if I could have a better time telling
her what I was going to do?"
Nick even likens Gatsby's pursuit as if Gatsby had found
himself committed "to the following of a grail."
Nothing but Daisy, not even Gatsby's own being, mattered
as much. He would've fallen on his sword for her...and in
essence, did, over and over again.
Once they'd found one another again in each other's need,
Jay and Daisy, ceased the ostentatious, grand parties of the days preceding
reaffirmation and loved privately. A different kind of wealth.
Had the story ended differently, say if Daisy had refused him
and attested to a pure love for Tom, I humbly opine that Gatsby
in her happiness as his priority, would have loved her from afar. Or,
in another ending, if cruel fate had not prevailed, they perhaps would have
run away from the society, which they seemingly found more and
more shallow and pointless, and lived and loved free? (almost
the love as exemplified, han, as in Dave Matthew's "when the world ends"?)
susan
MaryLM
>say such a thing to me! And it was all because I asked a question.
Wow!
>What kind of teacher tells you you're stupid for asking a question?!?!
A bad teacher. :P
Mary
<><
Linda
> Jay and Daisy, ceased the ostentatious, grand parties of the days
preceding
> reaffirmation and loved privately. A different kind of wealth.
>
> Had the story ended differently, say if Daisy had refused him
> and attested to a pure love for Tom, I humbly opine that Gatsby
> in her happiness as his priority, would have loved her from afar. Or,
> in another ending, if cruel fate had not prevailed, they perhaps would
have
> run away from the society, which they seemingly found more and
> more shallow and pointless, and lived and loved free? (almost
> the love as exemplified, han, as in Dave Matthew's "when the world ends"?)
> susan
Hmm. While I see Gatsby as a romantic hero, I hold no similar feelings for
Daisy at all. I don't think Daisy had the strength of character to tell
Gatsby the truth. I don't believe she would ever have abandoned her social
circle for him, and in fact in the end she did betray him by taking the
cowardly way out and running off, not even telling him she was going. He
awaited a phone call from her, he would have done anything she wanted, but
she chose to let him stay to take the blame, while she ran away with Tom.
Even without the final visit from the misled Wilson, he had lost Daisy.
Personally, I think this makes him a more powerful tragic figure, that he
loved her in spite of her failings, and makes the story more than a happily
ever after tale, but a tribute to his total commitment.
Linda
MaryLM
Daisy was married. Gatsby wanted her. He took steps to have her. That, to
me, is selfish. Imagine your spouse's old flame coming back into his/her life.
Mary
<><
Shona
>Wow!
zWell, I didn't actually say that to HER, although I wanted to and I
probably
wouldn't have gotten in trouble since I had witnesses. LoL!
>A bad teacher. :P
Exactly
Kris
>me, is selfish. Imagine your spouse's old flame coming back into his/her
>life.
>
>Mary
Not to mention the fact that Daisy was a complete idiot and he had no real
reason to be stuck on her. She wasn't anything special. Just a flighty,
unintelligent person who lacked all real emotion. I found emptiness in so much
of the characters, and though that might've been the point, it doesn't seem
truthful. All people are not that.. transparent and insincere.
Kristen
^^^^
Please don't put your life in the hands of a rock and roll band who'll throw it
all away.
"I've never really known what I was talking about. I'm not so sure I believe
in anything I've said. I just like to play devil's advocate."
Linda
to
> me, is selfish. Imagine your spouse's old flame coming back into his/her
life.
>
> Mary
> <><
I could take her.
Gatsby didn't just walk in and try to usurp Tom's position. He observed
what was going on from afar. He knew that Tom was cheating on her, and was
IMHO a lousy husband. I doubt that he could understand how anyone could
treat Daisy like that. He didn't think Tom loved her, and he didn't think
she loved Tom.
If I treated Mongo like that and Sharon the Snake (obviously no relation to
our Sharon) showed up, saw he was being abused, and told him he was
perfect, and she wanted to love and adore him, I expect he'd be gone. But
then, he married me for many sterling qualities; my great wealth wasn't
one of them.
Linda
mousie4
> >Daisy was married. Gatsby wanted her. He took steps to have her. That,
to
> >me, is selfish. Imagine your spouse's old flame coming back into his/her
> >life.
> >
> >Mary
>
> Not to mention the fact that Daisy was a complete idiot and he had no real
> reason to be stuck on her. She wasn't anything special. Just a flighty,
> unintelligent person who lacked all real emotion. I found emptiness in so
much
> of the characters, and though that might've been the point, it doesn't
seem
> truthful. All people are not that.. transparent and insincere.
I agree. I found myself feeling depressed after reading the book.
Claudia
Linda
> reason to be stuck on her. She wasn't anything special. Just a flighty,
> unintelligent person who lacked all real emotion. I found emptiness in so
much
> of the characters, and though that might've been the point, it doesn't
seem
> truthful. All people are not that.. transparent and insincere.
> Kristen
> ^^^^
I think you are right that the shallowness of some characters was
Fitzgerald's point. Of course, we are warned at the beginning of the book
that our narrator, Nick, while usually trying to be non judgmental, had been
pushed into a position of caring for the dreams of Gutsy, and was disgusted
with those who destroyed him without a second thought. Nick's view, which
becomes our view, is admittedly jaded.
He said Gatsby possessed "an extraordinary gift for hope, a romantic
readiness such as I have never found in any other person, and which it is
not likely I shall ever find again." Nick was saddened by "what preyed on
Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams."
The story isn't representative of all people, but I do think it was a
condemnation of a certain social elite lifestyle that Fitzgerald was quite
familiar with in the twenties. It was a contrast between a man of extreme
idealism, to people with no ideals.
"They were careless people, Tom and Daisy - they smashed up things and
creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast
carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other
people clean up the mess they had made...."
This isn't a feel good book. It's a tragedy. With a noble "great"
character.
But it also ends with a vision of the need to hold onto dreams. To strive
for a better future against all odds.
"Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year
recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that's no matter - tomorrow we
will run faster, stretch out our arms farther...And one fine morning ---
"So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the
past."
Linda
Jeddest
>> reason to be stuck on her. She wasn't anything special. Just a flighty,
>> unintelligent person who lacked all real emotion. I found emptiness in so
>much
>> of the characters, and though that might've been the point, it doesn't
>seem
>> truthful. All people are not that.. transparent and insincere.
Well, I don't think the point of the book was that all people are like that.
What is endearing to me about the characters is that they *are* so flawed...ALL
of them. I think you (the reader) aren't supposed understand what Gatsby could
possibly see in Daisy Buchannon...you aren't necessarily *supposed* to
understand the undying attraction and sad, sad, over-devotion to such a
superficial person. That's part of what makes Gatsby (with his super-flawed
methods of gaining Daisy's love) pathetic and heroic all at the same time, IMO.
His motive for loving her...unfathomable to us with our overview of his entire
life...remains pure. He just loves her. It's the one pure thing in the whole
book. Whether or not you approve of the characters' lifestyles and methodology,
that point seems fairly clear and noble...especially when surrounded by all the
rest of the muck in their lives.
When you add in the whole perspective of the eternal dreamer...of the optimism
of a young America, the book becomes truly amazing. The last paraghraph in the
book, besides being beautiful prose, is the most important passage in The Great
Gatsby. It ties the entire theme of the story together into an ode to
perserverence and hope. Flawed, pathetic humans can reach out beyond themselves
and attain perfection...in the eternal sense.
--Jarrod--
susan m
> readiness such as I have never found in any other person, and which it is
not likely I shall ever find again." Nick was saddened by "what preyed on
Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams."
Well...I guess I assumed some of Gatsby's idealistic blind faith of
Daisy, because I didn't see her as vapid, flat and idiotic as
how you all found her. I believed in their love enough and through Nicks'
observations of the couple together, deep and radiant in their
conversations, I found (or wished) something transcendent in
their relationship. We never know all the couple talked about nor the depth
they shared with one another...because we're not privy to their intimate
conversations and trysts. Through that literary device, I tipped
the scale IN their favor and gave Gatsby the benefit of the doubt about
Daisy, considering how devoted he was to her. I didn't question 'why' he
would go to all this trouble for this particular woman, I just "understood"
and accepted his love for her. He saw more worth in her than anybody else
did. And I trusted that judgment, however irrational it seemed to other
people and, I assume now, most readers.
> The story isn't representative of all people, but I do think it was a
> condemnation of a certain social elite lifestyle that Fitzgerald was quite
familiar with in the twenties. It was a contrast between a man of extreme
idealism, to people with no ideals.
It's very much a story reflective of the times....and in that, shows how
people (especially women) were victims of the era and
circumstances. I saw glimpses of Daisy's overt cynicism for the
society and her attempts to stand up to her husband.....and
thought that she would conceivably (imho) throw away everything
the second time around for Gatsby. But Fitzgerald purposively
devised scenarios which would put her in the middle, turn her bravado upside
down and change her course. She didn't know which of two very
dominant male figures to believe and, imho, was in more turmoil
and anguish than some of you allow her. And in terms of Gatsby,
his "idealism" is more romantic than of a social conscious nature,
so he too was without ideals on a larger scale.
> "They were careless people, Tom and Daisy - they smashed up things and
creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast
> carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other
> people clean up the mess they had made...."
Gatsby was careless as well because of his tunnel-vision. For
example, he was more concerned about how Daisy would handle the
accident rather than the real victims.
Also, this is Nick's observation, trying to make sense of a horrible
situation, all while standing too close and emersed emotionally.
Even he doesn't have all the pieces to the puzzle, although a mere pane of
glass separates him from the married couple. What he sees is illusion. We
don't know what numbed, conflicted, mental shape Daisy is in (considering
all she's been through in such a short timespan) or how Tom has desperately
or vengefully manipulated the situation, when we see her and Tom together
before their departure. For me there arose a lot of "what ifs" (further
complicated by the blurred connections, emerging twisted circumstances and
breakneck timing.)
> This isn't a feel good book.
Nor was I implying that it should have been when I spoke earlier
of "ifs" "maybes" and different endings. I like the novel more for
its story development and quality of language.
>It's a tragedy.
And about more than just Gatsby and the foils to
his character. It is also a tale about Nick.
>With a noble "great" character.
I'd substitute "romantically idealistic" for "great".
> But it also ends with a vision of the need to hold onto dreams.
To strive for a better future against all odds.
Open-ended enough to allow the reader to imagine his
own epilogues.
susan
Kris
>methods of gaining Daisy's love) pathetic and heroic all at the same time,
>IMO.
>His motive for loving her...unfathomable to us with our overview of his
>entire
>life...remains pure. He just loves her. It's the one pure thing in the whole
>book. Whether or not you approve of the characters' lifestyles and
>methodology,
>that point seems fairly clear and noble...especially when surrounded by all
>the
>rest of the muck in their lives.
>
I understand how you see the characters, definitely. However, I just don't see
any nobility in someone who loves for ostensible reasons. As a reader, I like
to be charmed by characters. There is positive in all negative. I like to see
some sort of charisma there.. to understand the reason why Gatsby finds her so
wonderful. Instead, I'm left feeling as though Gatsby simply wallowed in what
he couldn't attain.. He didn't find enough value in himself--to the point of
working from his own initiative. Rather, all his passion revolves around a girl
who doesn't deserve it.
I understand the idea. I'm just not moved by it.
Linda
> And about more than just Gatsby and the foils to
> his character. It is also a tale about Nick.
>
> >With a noble "great" character.
> I'd substitute "romantically idealistic" for "great".
>
More than that. He was romantically idealistic AND he was faithful to his
ideals. Besides,The Romantically Idealistic Gatsby doesn't have the right
ring.
> > But it also ends with a vision of the need to hold onto dreams.
> To strive for a better future against all odds.
>
> Open-ended enough to allow the reader to imagine his
> own epilogues
> susan
I think you are talking more about mental exercises with alternative choices
and values shown by the characters more than epilogues, which I think of as
just expanding and tying up the given storylines. And in that case, I think
yes, this story does easily lend itself to flights of fancy, and what-if
scenarios. In fact it is rather Gatsby-esque of you to want to envision it
in a way that meets with your view of how things could have been. You've
got the spirit.
Linda