3 phase residential with one leg 'out'
taber...@mypacks.net
Bought an older house 13 years ago (central Texas). It was the
original ‘ranch’ house that owned all the acreage around that sold was
off for what is now high-density residential surrounding my few acres.
Today the city utility crew came out to change electric meter to
digital, as I watched the testing and installation of new meter, they
told me I had 3-phase and one leg was ‘out’. This surprised me as I
had no idea I had 3 phase power in residential area and have been
using rotary converters to make 3 phase (for motors) for several
years. The meter crew mentioned the need to call in others as a fuse
or breaker on a transformer must be open. They also mentioned that
since one leg of my 3 phase was out that I have likely been paying
more for my electrical bill than I should. An hour later another
(puzzled) crew came out and again verified (to their amazement) I have
a 3 phase meter and 3 phase going into wall of my house. They then
went to the pole and fixed the ‘problem’. They returned and said I had
3-phase coming off of 2 transformers on the pole and one transformer
was switched “off” for some very long time. They said they fixed the
issue (took only 10 minutes), and tested the meter connections, and
confirmed that I again have 3 phase power to house…I was astounded as
I have spent some resources on 3-phase equipment and converters for
such.
Coming out of the exterior electric meter box are 2 conduits – one
goes to a a more modern added breaker box that drives my machine/wood
shop, swimming pool pump, and lights for an old tennis court (This is
a ‘normal’ single phase 220 volt box), and the second ‘3-phase’
conduit from meter box is going inside house wall to a throw switch
box with 3 large fuses and an old breaker box mounted above that. It
never dawned on me till today why there was 3 fuses inside the main
throw switch box.
I have a variety of 3 phase motorized equipment in my shop (which is
powered by a later-added-on breaker box that I am sure is 220 single
phase box)
I run an old metal lathe (2HP) and mill (3HP), and two 5 HP saws soon
to be hooked up and another 5 HP lathe soon to be refurbished - all
running 3 phase motors (although none run simultaneously). I have
been using (noisy) converters to run these and recently obtained 10
horse 3-phase motor and capacitors to make a larger rotary phase
converter (yet to be completed). Main point being I do use 3 phase
motors - But now, today - to my amazement – I find I have 3 phase
power to my house.
I have a degree from a community college in electronics – but it was
20 years ago and obtained just for my curiosity - so I know a little
about electronics – but no professional experience, and so still have
some
Questions:
What is going on here?
Have I indeed been paying too much for electric bill with one leg out
on 3-phase service?
I have read/heard somewhere in the past that 2 transformer 3-phase
isn’t same as industrial service 3-phase – is there a difference
between residential 3-phase and industrial 3-phase?
Can I simply take a lines from each of the 3 fuses in the main throw
switch box and have true 3-phase to my shop (at the other side of
house ..of course)?? And would that be a better, more balanced, and
cheaper source of three phase (considering question above about “2
transformer 3-phase”) than my rotary converters??
In the past I have had issues with lines going to this old breaker box
in that some lines some lines seem to trip breakers far too easily,
and any decent size motor in my shop dims all house lights on start,
but not the Air Conditioner. And I go through light bulbs like crazy –
could these be manifestations of a leg being “out”?? (In the past I
had a visitor who worked for power company suggest I had lousy ground
connection (neutral did he mean?)..Size of service box was OK)
This house had no grounded electric receptacles. As I slowly fix this
house up - I have added new receptacles and run grounds in important
rooms (mainly a room full of computers for my business) –– but I have
been running the new ground wires into the single phase (later-added
on) breaker box grounding bar – but the current for these lines comes
from the old 3 phase breaker box…I am really properly grounded on
these “updated” circuits…?..Seeing that one box is single phase and
another is 3 phase..??
Further references are solicited.
Norman Webb
taber...@mypacks.net wrote in message ...
### Don't think so. The old three phase meter should have been measuring
power total for each phase.
I have read/heard somewhere in the past that 2 transformer 3-phase
isn’t same as industrial service 3-phase – is there a difference
between residential 3-phase and industrial 3-phase?
##### three phase is three phase. There is difference whether it is used as
a star or delta configuration. (I did electrical engineering nearly 30 years
ago ,so I am a bit rusty too)
####How many wires are on the power poles out the front? 4 wires means three
phase. I haven't heard of two trnasformer, three phase. Is it Single primary
with three secondary windings?
Can I simply take a lines from each of the 3 fuses in the main throw
switch box and have true 3-phase to my shop (at the other side of
house ..of course)??
#### yes. Better have an electrician do it.
And would that be a better, more balanced, and
cheaper source of three phase (considering question above about “2
transformer 3-phase”) than my rotary converters??
#### if we are talking single phase motor driving 3 phase generator then
direct connection has to be more efficient.
In the past I have had issues with lines going to this old breaker box
in that some lines some lines seem to trip breakers far too easily,
and any decent size motor in my shop dims all house lights on start,
but not the Air Conditioner.
#### chech the wiring size to your mains breaker and from the mains breaker
to your workshop.
And I go through light bulbs like crazy –
could these be manifestations of a leg being “out”?? (In the past I
had a visitor who worked for power company suggest I had lousy ground
connection (neutral did he mean?)..Size of service box was OK)
This house had no grounded electric receptacles. As I slowly fix this
house up - I have added new receptacles and run grounds in important
rooms (mainly a room full of computers for my business) –– but I have
been running the new ground wires into the single phase (later-added
on) breaker box grounding bar – but the current for these lines comes
from the old 3 phase breaker box…I am really properly grounded on
these “updated” circuits…?..Seeing that one box is single phase and
another is 3 phase..??
### I would get the grounding checked pretty quickly to make sure all
grounds are at the same potential. Preferably 0v.
Further references are solicited.
Norman Webb
Norman Webb wrote in message
<490f78ff$0$22641$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>...
>
>I have read/heard somewhere in the past that 2 transformer 3-phase
>isn’t same as industrial service 3-phase – is there a difference
>between residential 3-phase and industrial 3-phase?
>
>##### three phase is three phase. There is difference whether it is used as
>a star or delta configuration. (I did electrical engineering nearly 30
years
>ago ,so I am a bit rusty too)
>
>####How many wires are on the power poles out the front? 4 wires means
three
>phase. I haven't heard of two trnasformer, three phase. Is it Single
primary
>with three secondary windings?
Just looked at my statement above. Three phase has each phase out of phase
by 120 deg so I can't figure out how it would work.
Pete C.
Two transformer three phase is "open delta", and it is indeed "real"
three phase.
taber...@mypacks.net
Thank you much for the response Norman -
I looked at the power pole - and there are 2 transformers - One big
Flash Gordon looking one that has 3 lines each going to three wires
traversing to other poles. 2 of 3 wires to my house attach to 2 of
those (as other houses also do). The third wire from my house goes to
a main terminal of another smaller ('pole pig' sort) transformer
mounted next to big one. Appears to be only 2 lines out of smaller
transformer - one line to my house and the other line goes straight to
the big transfomer - but can't quite see where connected to large
transformer without doing climbing into neighbors yards/fences. I am
little confused how I get three phase out this - still researching how
that might work
I remember years ago - squirrel short caused power out and utility man
came to my house and asked if I knew I had a "dedicated
tranformer"...I didn't know what he was talking about - and said
"no"....so I am now beginning to understand some of those mysteries
from the past...like finding in attic a huge (but only 1HP) 3-phase
motor connected by belt drive to giant defunct wood squirrel cage
ceiling fan (from the days before AC). ..besides that huge fan in
cieling...I see no indications why this house would be 3-phase -
unless in the late 40's they just did it that way..this house would be
in 'farm country' back then..now near heart of city..
Thanks again for you response
taber...@mypacks.net
> Norman Webb wrote:
>
> > Norman Webb wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you Pete C. - the term "Open Delta" did it for me - finding lots
of information in internet using that keyword - I get it now - thanks
for the clue...and seems it is NOT as good as a true (closed) delta -
as "open delta'' simply leaves out a winding on triangle
side..? ...but still that 3-phase setup has to better than my rotary
converters...esp considering the variety of motors I am driving (i.e.
can't balance converter specifically for one motor/load)..Is thia
what some call "farm 3-phase"...????
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
You have 208, not 220 volts.
Pete C.
No, he has 220 volts, he also has 110 volts and 208V. 208 volts commonly
comes with 120/208 volt three phase Wye service, but he has open delta
service, and if he has 110 loads off of it he has a "wild leg" to watch
out for as well.
The transformer that was offline was clearly the one with the non center
tapped output, so previously he didn't have that "wild leg" to watch out
for and he didn't have three phase service.
His "house" 110/220 panel is fed from the center tapped output of one of
the transformers, giving him a neutral and two hot legs for the 110/220
house loads. The other three phase panel for the "ranch" loads has the
same two hot legs as the "house" panel and has the additional third hot
leg provided from the other transformer. This ranch panel if it does not
have the neutral fed into it will be a straight 220 volt three phase
delta service. If the neutral leg is present there, he can put 110 volt
loads on as well, but has to be careful because the third leg is the
"wild leg" and is 208V relative to that neutral, not 110V like the other
two hot legs.
Diagrams help a lot with this, but I don't think I'm up to trying to
draw transformers in ASCII art. There should be some sites with diagrams
if you search for "open delta" and "wild leg". Certainly the OP should
not go messing around much with his new found three phase service before
finding such diagrams and understanding them.
taber...@mypacks.net
> cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:27:28 +0800, "Norman Webb" <tek...@iinet.net.au>
> > wrote:
>
> > >Norman Webb wrote in message
>
> > >>I have read/heard somewhere in the past that 2 transformer3-phase
> > >>between residential3-phaseand industrial3-phase?
>
> > >>##### threephaseis threephase. There is difference whether it is used as
> > >>a star or delta configuration. (I did electrical engineering nearly 30
> > >years
> > >>ago ,so I am a bit rusty too)
>
> > >>####How many wires are on the power poles out the front? 4 wires means
> > >three
> > >primary
> > >>with three secondary windings?
>
> > >Just looked at my statement above. Threephasehas eachphaseout ofphase
> > >by 120 deg so I can't figure out how it would work.
>
> > You have 208, not 220 volts.
>
> No, he has 220 volts, he also has 110 volts and 208V. 208 volts commonly
> service, and if he has 110 loads off of it he has a "wild leg" to watch
> out for as well.
>
> The transformer that was offline was clearly the one with the non center
> tapped output, so previously he didn't have that "wild leg" to watch out
> for and he didn't have threephaseservice.
>
> His "house" 110/220 panel is fed from the center tapped output of one of
> the transformers, giving him a neutral and two hot legs for the 110/220
> same two hot legs as the "house" panel and has the additional third hot
> leg provided from the other transformer. This ranch panel if it does not
> have the neutral fed into it will be a straight 220 volt threephase
> delta service. If the neutral leg is present there, he can put 110 volt
> loads on as well, but has to be careful because the third leg is the
> "wild leg" and is 208V relative to that neutral, not 110V like the other
> two hot legs.
>
> Diagrams help a lot with this, but I don't think I'm up to trying to
> draw transformers in ASCII art. There should be some sites with diagrams
> if you search for "open delta" and "wild leg". Certainly the OP should
> finding such diagrams and understanding them.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks again Pete - I think you are spot on. And apologies for an
error in original post - I have 4 wires coming to house (not 3 as
stated)- didn't realize until closer examination that the support/
anchor cable was also the 'neutral' 4th wire.
At end of this webpage: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=157326
is a diagram that must be exacly what my setup is . Across my 3 fuses
at 'a', 'b', and 'c' in that diagram (inout to house) I measure 240,
238, and 235 volts. My 'ranch' panel DOES have "110" V circuits. One
thing bothering me a little is (from same diagram), I have 240 volts
across 'a' and 'b'...but only 108 and 105 volts measuring from 'a'
and 'b' to neutral (measured at bus bar and incoming bare cable) - I
expected 120 V. (Sorry - wish I knew how to attach diagram). Thank you
Pete and Norman for your input - I learned much...
Norman Webb
Pete C. wrote in message
<490faf7a$0$19760$ec3e...@unlimited.usenetmonster.com>...
I'll have to have a think about this but what about the phase of each leg?
A centre tapped transformer will be in phase or 180 degrees out of phase.
A three phase induction motor works with the 3 phases 120 degrees out of
phase.
In the mean time I'll google "open Delta"
Regards
Norm
daestrom
> cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:27:28 +0800, "Norman Webb"
>> <tek...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Norman Webb wrote in message
>>> <490f78ff$0$22641$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>...
>>>>
>>>> I have read/heard somewhere in the past that 2 transformer 3-phase
Well, the 'wild leg' as you call it isn't exactly 208V. If the
center-tapped side is truly 110/220 and the smaller transformer is also 220,
then from the third phase to neutral is only 190V.
But still, it's different enough that if you mistakenly use it instead of
one of the 'hot' legs from the larger, center-tapped transformer, it will
blow whatever 110V load you hook up to it.
daestrom
taber...@mypacks.net
>
> > On Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:27:28 +0800, "Norman Webb" <tek...@iinet.net.au>
> > wrote:
>
> > >Norman Webb wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks Pete – I think you are spot on. Apologies I erred in the
original post – I have 4 wires coming from pole – I didn’t realize
until closer examination that the support/anchor cable for the 3 hot
wires was also the ‘neutral’ 4th wire (and I so figured the ground
connections I asked about in original post are fine)
Wish I could attach diagram at end of this website - see:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=157326
It must be my exact 3-phase setup. From that diagram - measuring
between (house inputs) ‘a’, ‘b’, and ‘c’ I measure 240, 238, and 235
volts ( I can not easily measure ‘c’ (wild leg) to neutral to see if
209 volts exist there). BTW – the ‘ranch panel’ DOES have 110
circuits.
Something bothering me is that I get 240V between ‘a’ and ‘b’, but
only 108 and 105 volts from those points to neutral (measured at
breaker box bus bar and bar input cable roof anchor) – I was expecting
120 volts (not 105 volts).
Thank you Pete, and Norman, for the input – I learned much…
Pete C.
Yes and all the voltages are very "nominal".
Pete C.
The three hot legs are indeed 120 degrees out of phase since the
transformers are fed from three phase lines. The exact details on the
center tapped transformer vary depending on whether the high side is fed
Wye or Delta, but it doesn't matter much from your perspective since you
still get the expected voltages.
Neon John
>Questions:
>What is going on here?
>Have I indeed been paying too much for electric bill with one leg out
>on 3-phase service?
You have what is called split open delta service. A conventional 120/240
single phase transformer supplies your domestic needs. A second, usually
smaller transformer is connected in series with the first. The neutral is
not connected and the far end supplies the 3rd or "wild leg" of the three
phase circuit. With this configuration you have 120/240 single phase and 240
3 phase. If the 3 phase load is significant, they will add the third
transformer to make it a full split delta.
This configuration is used when there is only a small 3 phase load, say, a 3
phase AC unit. Above about 5 tons, 3 phase ACS are much more efficient than
single phase so it's worth the extra wiring to get three phase.
This connection is also used in situations like yours where you have machinery
that needs three phase power. Some utilities charge extra for 3-phase service
but many others (including mine) don't. If your utility charges extra for
3-phase then a rotary converter may make more sense, depending on the load.
If there is no surcharge then by all means use the utility-supplied 3-phase.
As you're probably aware, it's difficult to get a rotary converter to output
well balanced voltage on all three legs plus the starting torque of 3 phase
motors is generally reduced.
What the line crew found is typical when a subsequent customer no longer needs
the three phase power. (that also kinda makes me think that there is a 3-phase
surcharge). The pull the primary fuse on the second transformer to stop the
losses in that transformer.
>I have read/heard somewhere in the past that 2 transformer 3-phase
>isn’t same as industrial service 3-phase – is there a difference
>between residential 3-phase and industrial 3-phase?
I's different only that you have the split leg that supplies you with 120/240
AND 240 3phase. Small industrial connections where the majority of the load
is 3 phase are more usually wye connected on the secondary which provides 120
volts phase let to neutral but only 208 leg to leg. The result is 120/208
single phase and 208 3 phase. Motors can be obtained that will run on either
240 or 208, sometimes with re-strapping so it's no big deal there.
The problem comes with 240 rated heating appliances. Power varies by the
square of the voltage so a 240 volt appliance (oven, water heater, etc)
operated on 208 has significantly less output. Commercial heating apparatus
(restaurant and small food manufacturing) can be had with heating ratings of
either rating. The problem comes primarily with home cooking appliances and
water heaters. 208 volt water heater elements are available so that problem
can be solved. AFIK, 208 volt ranges are not available.
This is domestic problem is primarily seen in large apartment buildings that
are served with 120/208 wye power.
For some reason that I don't understand despite being a utility engineer for
half my life, some utilities are hostile to the split delta, open or close, as
you have. Fortunately mine isn't so when/if I get my shop moved up here I'll
have 3 phase installed.
>Can I simply take a lines from each of the 3 fuses in the main throw
>switch box and have true 3-phase to my shop (at the other side of
>house ..of course)?? And would that be a better, more balanced, and
>cheaper source of three phase (considering question above about “2
>transformer 3-phase”) than my rotary converters??
Yes. HOWEVER. The slang for this type of feed is either "stinger leg" or
"wild leg". That refers to the third leg that makes up the three phase, the
one that was just energized in your situation. That leg is around 207 volts
to ground. If you mistakenly use it to supply a single phase 120 volt branch,
you will smoke whatever is connected to it.
By code, that leg is supposed to be marked orange and/or conspicuously
labeled. Now that it's energized, make damned sure that there are no single
phase loads connected to it.
IN my previous place where I also had split delta three phase power, I had two
separate breaker panels, one for three phase loads and one for single phase.
That made absolutely positively sure that someone could not come along and
connect up a single phase branch to the wild leg.
The entrance wiring in my place was very old, had been severely overloaded in
the past and had brittle insulation so I didn't move it any to be able to mark
the wild leg. I simply spray painted it fluorescent orange at all points
where it was visible.
>In the past I have had issues with lines going to this old breaker box
>in that some lines some lines seem to trip breakers far too easily,
>and any decent size motor in my shop dims all house lights on start,
>but not the Air Conditioner. And I go through light bulbs like crazy –
>could these be manifestations of a leg being “out”?? (In the past I
>had a visitor who worked for power company suggest I had lousy ground
>connection (neutral did he mean?)..Size of service box was OK)
>This house had no grounded electric receptacles. As I slowly fix this
>house up - I have added new receptacles and run grounds in important
>rooms (mainly a room full of computers for my business) –– but I have
>been running the new ground wires into the single phase (later-added
>on) breaker box grounding bar – but the current for these lines comes
>from the old 3 phase breaker box…I am really properly grounded on
>these “updated” circuits…?..Seeing that one box is single phase and
>another is 3 phase..??
Nothing to do with grounding. Everything to do with the integrity of the
neutral from the transformers to your panel. Open neutrals aren't all that
uncommon and they can do massive damage, even start fires, depending on how
unbalanced the legs are.
Consider the worst possible situation - the neutral opens and there are a
number of 120 volt loads on one leg but none on the other. The voltage at an
outlet on the unloaded leg is 240 volts line to neutral. Plug in an appliance
and now ohm's law applies. The many loads on the other leg are essentially
zero ohms so practically no voltage drops across them. Almost all the 240
volts appears across that one appliance and smokes it.
You need to start at your breaker panel and check all the neutral connections.
Wear rubber or dry leather gloves (because the neutral could have voltage on
it) and tighten the connection. If the connection was loose and the wire is
aluminum, it would be a good idea to have your service killed, all the wires
removed from the panel connections and coated with NoAlox or some other
anti-oxidant and re-tightened.
The problem with aluminum wiring is that once it starts to heat, high
resistance aluminum oxide starts building. The wire has a high thermal
expansion coefficient and cold-flows easily. Thus, the heat caused by the
oxide will heat the wire, causing it to expand, flow out from under the
connector, loosening it and causing more heat. This continues until either
the oxide builds up enough to open the circuit or the connector burns up.
The next thing you can do is measure the voltage from each leg to neutral.
They should be within a couple of volts of each other. Turn on a heavy 120
volt load and measure again. The difference may increase a little but no more
than 1 or 2 volts.
If you see that change in voltage, it's time to call the utility and report an
open neutral. From the utility's perspective, especially the low level
dispatchers who answer the phone, every customer is a dumb ass so you can't
just tell them that you have an open neutral. The key words are "When I turn
on a 120 volt heater, lights in the room dim while lights elsewhere brighten.
It is getting worse rapidly."
A second cause of this problem, normally seen in old houses, is inadequate
service drop wiring. Both my last house (about 30 years old when I bought it)
and my restaurant building had #6 copper wire feeding 200 amp panels. 2-0 is
now the standard for aluminum wire. I can't recall the copper size but it's
almost as large.
This size wire was too small for 100 amp service and outrageous for 200 amp.
If you have small wiring like this then you need to try to have the load on
each leg balanced as well as possible. That is, minimize the neutral current.
Here you need a clamp-on ammeter.
With your house "turned on" as it typically is, measure the neutral current.
If it's significant, say, more than about 30 amps, move loads from one leg to
the other until the current is nearer to zero. Many times that can be done by
swapping adjacent breakers, as adjacent breaker slots go to different legs.
The legs alternate as they proceed down the row.
Next, complain to the utility that your service drop is inadequate and that
you're tired of lights dimming when something like the AC or stove is turned
on. If you can "talk the talk", ask to speak to someone in engineering.
You'll need to have your neutral current and each leg current figures handy
and know approximately what size your entrance drop wiring is. If it is 3
separate wires then it's probably too small. If it is modern "triplex" (two
hot wires wrapped around an un-insulated neutral) then it may be OK.
If you're lucky, they'll agree and send out a crew to change the drop. That's
what happened at my restaurant. I was able to talk to an engineer. I have a
power quality instrument (a multi-thousand dollar instrument that measures
sags, surges, dips, and other power anomalies) and could tell him what my
worst sag voltage and neutral to ground voltage was.
In rural Cobb county (Atlanta), the co-op was not nearly so cooperative so I
had to resort to other means. I dropped a tree across the line to knock down
the line, dragged the tree out of the way and then called in a power outage.
The line crew was pretty decent, especially once they found out that I was in
the utility biz too, so they reported the line failure as due to unknown
causes :-)
In any event, you need to get to the root of this faulty neutral and fix it.
If the neutral opens up it can cause a fire in the worst case and burn out
lots of expensive stuff in the typical case.
During that wind-storm outage in Ohio a few weeks ago I had a friend suffer an
open neutral inside his emergency generator. We traced it to sorry-assed
workmanship at the generator factory. It smoked about $10k worth of stuff in
his house including his entire overhead projection-type home theater system.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I don't speak Stupid so do speak slowly.
Neon John
>> You have 208, not 220 volts.
>
>No, he has 220 volts, he also has 110 volts and 208V. 208 volts commonly
>comes with 120/208 volt three phase Wye service, but he has open delta
>service, and if he has 110 loads off of it he has a "wild leg" to watch
>out for as well.
Nope. He has 120/240 single phase service and 240 3 phase compliments of the
wild leg that also happens to be nominally 208 volts to neutral, NOT to be
confused with 208/120 delta service. This is called "split open delta" and
not just open delta. It could also be "split closed delta" which is what I
had since I had many more 3 phase loads than the average house. The 3rd
transformer gave me better three phase voltage regulation.
>
>The transformer that was offline was clearly the one with the non center
>tapped output, so previously he didn't have that "wild leg" to watch out
>for and he didn't have three phase service.
True.
>
>His "house" 110/220 panel is fed from the center tapped output of one of
>the transformers, giving him a neutral and two hot legs for the 110/220
Please use the modern notation of 120/240. 110/220 has been gone for half a
century. quoting it the old way screws up newbies trying to make the math
work.
>house loads. The other three phase panel for the "ranch" loads has the
>same two hot legs as the "house" panel and has the additional third hot
>leg provided from the other transformer. This ranch panel if it does not
>have the neutral fed into it will be a straight 220 volt three phase
>delta service. If the neutral leg is present there, he can put 110 volt
>loads on as well, but has to be careful because the third leg is the
>"wild leg" and is 208V relative to that neutral, not 110V like the other
>two hot legs.
That is true per the math ( (120+240)/sqrt(3)) ) but the voltages usually
aren't exactly 120 and 240. Mine was a bit high so that my wild leg ran 214
to ground on average.
That was handy for a number of things including operating some British-market
appliances that I had a Brit friend send me. Their system expects 230 on one
leg and neutral on the other. I liked running the wild leg to outlets for
those devices better than I did conventional 240 with each leg 120 to ground.
Just in case the Brit manufacturer took the same shortcuts as US mfrs used to
and tied the neutral to the case.
Since a 240 volt appliance can draw twice the power as a 120 volt appliance
from the same ampacity circuit, Brit stuff is much nicer to use. A tea pot
boils water MUCH faster then even a gas stove heated American one.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
The profligate use of energy is the sign of a healthy, expanding civilization.
Conservation is a leap backward toward the caves.
Pete C.
Neon John wrote:
>
> On Mon, 03 Nov 2008 20:12:41 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
>
> >> You have 208, not 220 volts.
> >
> >No, he has 220 volts, he also has 110 volts and 208V. 208 volts commonly
> >comes with 120/208 volt three phase Wye service, but he has open delta
> >service, and if he has 110 loads off of it he has a "wild leg" to watch
> >out for as well.
>
> Nope. He has 120/240 single phase service and 240 3 phase compliments of the
> wild leg that also happens to be nominally 208 volts to neutral, NOT to be
> confused with 208/120 delta service. This is called "split open delta" and
> not just open delta. It could also be "split closed delta" which is what I
> had since I had many more 3 phase loads than the average house. The 3rd
> transformer gave me better three phase voltage regulation.
Re-read what I worte, I clearly indicated the OP has open delta service,
not 120/208 Wye service.
>
> >
> >The transformer that was offline was clearly the one with the non center
> >tapped output, so previously he didn't have that "wild leg" to watch out
> >for and he didn't have three phase service.
>
> True.
>
> >
> >His "house" 110/220 panel is fed from the center tapped output of one of
> >the transformers, giving him a neutral and two hot legs for the 110/220
>
> Please use the modern notation of 120/240. 110/220 has been gone for half a
> century. quoting it the old way screws up newbies trying to make the math
> work.
I was just sticking with the OP's notation. 120/240 service usually
isn't 120/240 either, it's all "nominal". My 120V is actually 125V at
the moment.
>
> >house loads. The other three phase panel for the "ranch" loads has the
> >same two hot legs as the "house" panel and has the additional third hot
> >leg provided from the other transformer. This ranch panel if it does not
> >have the neutral fed into it will be a straight 220 volt three phase
> >delta service. If the neutral leg is present there, he can put 110 volt
> >loads on as well, but has to be careful because the third leg is the
> >"wild leg" and is 208V relative to that neutral, not 110V like the other
> >two hot legs.
>
> That is true per the math ( (120+240)/sqrt(3)) ) but the voltages usually
> aren't exactly 120 and 240. Mine was a bit high so that my wild leg ran 214
> to ground on average.
Like I said, all are "nominal".
>
> That was handy for a number of things including operating some British-market
> appliances that I had a Brit friend send me. Their system expects 230 on one
> leg and neutral on the other. I liked running the wild leg to outlets for
> those devices better than I did conventional 240 with each leg 120 to ground.
> Just in case the Brit manufacturer took the same shortcuts as US mfrs used to
> and tied the neutral to the case.
Yes, a seemingly insignificant difference in ground reference until it
bites you. Then you have their wacky ring mains and fused receptacles...
>
> Since a 240 volt appliance can draw twice the power as a 120 volt appliance
> from the same ampacity circuit, Brit stuff is much nicer to use. A tea pot
> boils water MUCH faster then even a gas stove heated American one.
Yes, but I still like the cup in the microwave. No custom importing a UK
kettle, wiring up a special outlet for it, or having to clean it.
Neon John
>
>Neon John wrote:
>> >> You have 208, not 220 volts.
>> >
>> >No, he has 220 volts, he also has 110 volts and 208V. 208 volts commonly
>> >comes with 120/208 volt three phase Wye service, but he has open delta
>> >service, and if he has 110 loads off of it he has a "wild leg" to watch
>> >out for as well.
>>
>> Nope. He has 120/240 single phase service and 240 3 phase compliments of the
>> wild leg that also happens to be nominally 208 volts to neutral, NOT to be
>> confused with 208/120 delta service. This is called "split open delta" and
>> not just open delta. It could also be "split closed delta" which is what I
>> had since I had many more 3 phase loads than the average house. The 3rd
>> transformer gave me better three phase voltage regulation.
>
>Re-read what I worte, I clearly indicated the OP has open delta service,
>not 120/208 Wye service.
OK, I re-read it and I'm not sure WHAT you said. Dragging the 208 in the same
sentence with a delta connection is explicitly confusing to a non-electrical
person.
In any event, he does NOT have an open delta service. He has a SPLIT open
delta service. The difference matters a LOT.
>> That was handy for a number of things including operating some British-market
>> appliances that I had a Brit friend send me. Their system expects 230 on one
>> leg and neutral on the other. I liked running the wild leg to outlets for
>> those devices better than I did conventional 240 with each leg 120 to ground.
>> Just in case the Brit manufacturer took the same shortcuts as US mfrs used to
>> and tied the neutral to the case.
>
>Yes, a seemingly insignificant difference in ground reference until it
>bites you. Then you have their wacky ring mains and fused receptacles...
Whacky? Hardly. I LIKE the ring architecture. I like it ever better after
spending a smothering hot day in a customer's attic, trying to figure out why
continuity had been lost between an outlet and the breaker panel. Said
discontinuity being a wire nut that fell off inside a pull box (all code-legal
and all) where wiring had been changed during a remodel.
As far as fusing (actually breakering nowadays) at the outlet, which would you
rather do after tripping a breaker? Walk over to wherever the load that
caused the trip is plugged in and reset the breaker or tromp down a couple of
flights of stairs into the musty cellar, knock away the cobwebs, find the
panel and figure out which one tripped?
I'll take the breaker-at-the-outlet any day.
>
>>
>> Since a 240 volt appliance can draw twice the power as a 120 volt appliance
>> from the same ampacity circuit, Brit stuff is much nicer to use. A tea pot
>> boils water MUCH faster then even a gas stove heated American one.
>
>Yes, but I still like the cup in the microwave. No custom importing a UK
>kettle, wiring up a special outlet for it, or having to clean it.
Probably because you have never had properly brewed British tea. I hadn't
either until a Brit visited me and educated me to my heathen ways. The Brits
have had a few thousand years to figure this one out. The key is for the
water to still be boiling when it hits the tea.
The difference using the same brand of tea between the proper brewing method
and hitting it with the lukewarm boiling on the top, room temperature on the
bottom water that comes out of a microwave is remarkable. The person who
invents a microwave water boiler that will boil the whole volume will become
rich!
Actually, I have an electric tea pot and one that goes over the ring (gas
burner) but both are so slow that I rarely used them. Not so with the 230
volt model.
Re: installing a special outlet. No big deal. Just snip off that Brit
monster and attach a standard NEMA 20 amp plug. Long ago I started wiring my
places with a 240 volt outlet beside each 120 volt one. Two outlet boxes, a
little more wire and a few more breakers? No big deal. Having 240 volts
everywhere is one of those things that you don't really appreciate until you
have it.
Being able to put a REAL heater wherever it is needed is one thing. Having
the commercial carpet steam cleaner be able to plug in at each room without
having to use any of his jerry-rigging lashups to get 240 is another.
Having the welder in the bedroom for when the wifey buys a headboard and rails
that don't quite mate up is another. Toss a welding blanket over the carpet,
let her get things exactly like she wants 'em, a few seconds' work with the
little inverter welder and wifey's happy. And I didn't have to drag a half
mile of extension cord over from the shop.
I could go on but you get the picture.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables!
taber...@mypacks.net
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
John and Pete - thank you both - I get it...see the link
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=157326
with diagram - it has to be how I'm wired..
John - great stuff in your original post to me thank you much I liked
the info - concise and I followed it well – and I like your website –
we are of same vintage…and I too never answer the phone..
Your point about 208 vs 240 volts on the wye vs delta explains some
things I've wondered about - like several of my 3-phase motors say
they are 208-220/440 volts - always wondered if they were being
specific in the range that motor could accept or what - now I see wye
(har har)…my 3P motors - some say 230/460..? now I wonder why they
all don’t say 208 -240/480 V
And I do see the 240 volt possibility with an open neutral.- in the
past I did tighten all my neutral at bus bar on later added panel…and
some were loose and it did seem to help some lights …but others not.
And I am all copper except where neutral (thin wire) clamps to large
braided steel? cable and enters house’I guess I need to tighten up
neutral connections in the dreaded ‘inside’ old breaker box,,a chore
to get panel off and back on – each switch has it’s own square hole
and tight fit
So I took your suggestion and measured with c clamp meter the amperage
on my lines with a normal evening load on house - I got one hot at
6.0 amps and other at 3.7 amps and the wild leg was zero of course
( nothing on it yet).,,,.BUT – the neutral read ZERO amps – tried it
three times..thought I’d get a measurement there since current on each
main hot had significant difference,. does that make any sense??
Though I might get over 2 amps on neutral ..? But get nothing..is it
not my true neutral??? Also the incoming lines are indeed seperate -
about 1/4 in thick with thin insulation..brittle too - can't find any
identification. The newer breaker box has awg1 as the main hot lines
(out of meter box) if that helps tell me anything..would they match my
lines size to the pole?
Have a few more questions I like to ask you – but GF pulling me away –
thanks again for your informative response
Kurt
Neon John
>John and Pete - thank you both - I get it...see the link
>http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=157326
Boy, that page had me scratching my head and hitting the books. I've never
seen an open wye primary connection as shown there. While it will work it is
bad juju for the reasons given in the fine print and more. Phase C has no
current at all. that means that the upstream substation has an unbalanced
load which causes a number of problems.
More commonly, an open delta is used on the primary. That way all three
phases have approx equal current (assuming the secondary load is balanced), no
neutral current flows because there isn't a neutral and no reliance on ground
conductance is required.
The ONLY advantage that I can see in an open wye is that it lets the utility
use transformers designed for wye connections (only one primary "horn), the
other side of the primary is connected internally to ground) that they may
already have in stock. If the load is small enough then the unbalance doesn't
matter because it is likewise small.
An additional large negative is that an intact neutral conductor must be
maintained from the substation to the transformer bank. If primary neutrals
are run in the first place. Many utilities, including the couple I still
consult to, don't run primary neutrals. A large waste of materials. Where
the neutral is run, it is run lower on the pole on low voltage insulators. If
the neutral gets broken, the load side can see high voltage, potentially up to
the full primary voltage, which often flashes over the low voltage insulators
and sets the pole in fire.
In that drawing, the secondary side is EXACTLY what you have. If you had any
significant three phase load at all, a third transformer would be added. The
primary would be connected from phase C to neutral and on the secondary side
it would be connected from X1 to X3.
Like I mentioned earlier I had that configuration - split closed delta -
feeding my restaurant because not only were my AC systems (3 of 'em) 3 phase
but also so were most of my heating appliances. The per-conductor current and
thus the wire size is reduced by sqrt(3) vs single phase for the same kW load,
which is why that technique is used. This also reduces the size of the
contactor required to switch the load.
Another reason for using 3 phase heating appliances is that more total kW,
again by a factor of sqrt(3) can be drawn from a 200 amp 3 phase service vs
200 amp single phase. 200 amps in most areas including mine is the highest
one can go without going to demand metering. That is, they charge for both
the energy (kWh) used AND how fast you use it (kW). The demand charge is
steep too. At the time it was $8.88 per kilowatt over 20kW averaged over a 15
minute interval. IOW, they gave us 20kW of demand free. If I hit 25kw just
once for 30 minutes during that month, I'd have had to pay 5 * 8.88 = $44.40
demand charge. That's in ADDITION to the energy charge. One REALLY wants to
stay off demand metering if he can.
My restaurant actually drew closer to 300 amps in the heat of the summer. Yep,
50% overload. The wiring from the weather head to the main disconnect panel
was in rigid conduit (NOT EMT) which would not burn through in case of a fault
so I risked the overload since my only other option was demand metering. The
risk worked for 11 years :-) I did have to do a few other tricks such as
double-linking replaceable link 200 amp fuses and mount a squirrel cage fan on
the disconnect switch to blow cold air on the knife switches to keep them from
getting so hot that they oxidized.
>So I took your suggestion and measured with c clamp meter the amperage
>on my lines with a normal evening load on house - I got one hot at
>6.0 amps and other at 3.7 amps and the wild leg was zero of course
>( nothing on it yet).,,,.BUT – the neutral read ZERO amps – tried it
>three times..thought I’d get a measurement there since current on each
>main hot had significant difference,. does that make any sense??
>Though I might get over 2 amps on neutral ..? But get nothing..is it
>not my true neutral??? Also the incoming lines are indeed seperate -
>about 1/4 in thick with thin insulation..brittle too - can't find any
>identification. The newer breaker box has awg1 as the main hot lines
>(out of meter box) if that helps tell me anything..would they match my
>lines size to the pole?
Here's my take.
Your neutral is open and the neutral current is returning to the transformer
via your ground connections or maybe through the ground rod connections and
back through your new box's neutral. Ground rods and their connections
thereof are anachronisms, usually of too high an impedance to do any good if
the neutral opens. Fortunately your load is so low (I'd love to have your
power bill if your amp clamp is accurate!) that the return current (the
difference between the leg currents) is flowing along the ground wire, into
the ground rod, through the earth back up the ground rod at the pole and to
the transformer neutral. That your lights go bright and dim and don't last
very long with a low load like that shows just how little current the ground
rod can carry.
To verify this theory, find the bare ground wire that leads either from your
breaker panel or your meter base or both and runs to the ground rod. Measure
this current. If my analysis is correct, it will read about the difference of
the two leg currents.
IF both your boxes' ground wires connect together before going to the ground
rod then measure the wire as it exits the box in question. IF you see current
there then measure the ground current and the current flowing in the ground
wire from the new box to see where the current is going.
My guess is that the neutral is open where your copper cable is spliced to the
silver (ACSR - aluminum conductor, steel reinforced) lead on the drop from the
power pole. Galvanic action, maybe no anti-oxidant and maybe poor crimping.
In any event, if you detect ground current, call the power company NOW and
have the neutral fixed. The path back to the pole is tenuous at best. If the
earth dries out some more or something disturbs anything in the path to upset
the electrical path, you could end up with a fully open neutral.
If the current is flowing out of the box in question, through the ground wire
and back into the new box then the problem isn't quite so bad as to constitute
an emergency. You're experiencing short lived light bulbs so there is still
excess resistance in the neutral circuit but there is little chance of it
opening.
This is not all that uncommon. I was once chasing a similar problem in an
apartment building. I hung my amp clamp on a copper water pipe for storage
while I wasn't using it. I happened to notice that it was reading 60 amps! A
combination of problems had all the neutral current from part of this and all
the adjacent apartment building going to ground through that water pipe which
happened to be the main pipe to the water meter. Thank heaven the water
company hadn't used dielectric joints at the meter like they frequently do
now! The last straw had broken when someone had tapped the pole while parking
by ear :-) and broken the bare ground wire.
I had significant voltage between the ends of the wire and when I spliced it
back together using a couple of split bolts and more wire, got lots o' sparks.
I still had current through the pipe - like I say, ground rods are pretty
lousy conductors - but not nearly so much.
It took the berg's (pop 4000) electrician about 2 days to come out and fix the
real problem, that the neutral clamp on the transformer had come loose and let
the neutral servicing all the apartments except mine slide out. Fortunately
the neutral connection on the transformer was independently strapped to case
ground and the ground wire going up the pole clamped to the transformer
separately on yet another clamp. Mine was still in the neutral clamp only by
the grace of God. I could look out my 2nd story bedroom window right at the
transformer that was no more than 20 ft away.
Anyway, if you have actual earth current flowing, you need to get it fixed
pronto. The blue smoke in all your household gadgets is just waiting to leak
out!
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If stupidity hurt then there'd be Aspirin in the salt shakers.
Pete C.
Neon John wrote:
>
> On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:53:29 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Neon John wrote:
>
> >> >> You have 208, not 220 volts.
> >> >
> >> >No, he has 220 volts, he also has 110 volts and 208V. 208 volts commonly
> >> >comes with 120/208 volt three phase Wye service, but he has open delta
> >> >service, and if he has 110 loads off of it he has a "wild leg" to watch
> >> >out for as well.
> >>
> >> Nope. He has 120/240 single phase service and 240 3 phase compliments of the
> >> wild leg that also happens to be nominally 208 volts to neutral, NOT to be
> >> confused with 208/120 delta service. This is called "split open delta" and
> >> not just open delta. It could also be "split closed delta" which is what I
> >> had since I had many more 3 phase loads than the average house. The 3rd
> >> transformer gave me better three phase voltage regulation.
> >
> >Re-read what I worte, I clearly indicated the OP has open delta service,
> >not 120/208 Wye service.
>
> OK, I re-read it and I'm not sure WHAT you said. Dragging the 208 in the same
> sentence with a delta connection is explicitly confusing to a non-electrical
> person.
Clare brought up 208 thinking the OP had Wye service.
>
> In any event, he does NOT have an open delta service. He has a SPLIT open
> delta service. The difference matters a LOT.
Well, sort of, he effectively has two services and needs to be careful
not to intermix them.
>
> >> That was handy for a number of things including operating some British-market
> >> appliances that I had a Brit friend send me. Their system expects 230 on one
> >> leg and neutral on the other. I liked running the wild leg to outlets for
> >> those devices better than I did conventional 240 with each leg 120 to ground.
> >> Just in case the Brit manufacturer took the same shortcuts as US mfrs used to
> >> and tied the neutral to the case.
> >
> >Yes, a seemingly insignificant difference in ground reference until it
> >bites you. Then you have their wacky ring mains and fused receptacles...
>
> Whacky? Hardly. I LIKE the ring architecture. I like it ever better after
> spending a smothering hot day in a customer's attic, trying to figure out why
> continuity had been lost between an outlet and the breaker panel. Said
> discontinuity being a wire nut that fell off inside a pull box (all code-legal
> and all) where wiring had been changed during a remodel.
So you like an architecture that can hide a fault?
>
> As far as fusing (actually breakering nowadays) at the outlet, which would you
> rather do after tripping a breaker? Walk over to wherever the load that
> caused the trip is plugged in and reset the breaker or tromp down a couple of
> flights of stairs into the musty cellar, knock away the cobwebs, find the
> panel and figure out which one tripped?
I'd prefer to walk over to my cobweb free, clearly labeled QO panel
where I can easily see the orange trip indicator on the breaker and
reset it, vs. climbing over or moving furniture to get to the outlet
behind the sofa.
>
> I'll take the breaker-at-the-outlet any day.
Not me.
>
> >
> >>
> >> Since a 240 volt appliance can draw twice the power as a 120 volt appliance
> >> from the same ampacity circuit, Brit stuff is much nicer to use. A tea pot
> >> boils water MUCH faster then even a gas stove heated American one.
> >
> >Yes, but I still like the cup in the microwave. No custom importing a UK
> >kettle, wiring up a special outlet for it, or having to clean it.
>
> Probably because you have never had properly brewed British tea. I hadn't
> either until a Brit visited me and educated me to my heathen ways. The Brits
> have had a few thousand years to figure this one out. The key is for the
> water to still be boiling when it hits the tea.
No, I've probably never had proper British tea, but I'm not much of a
tea fan.
>
> The difference using the same brand of tea between the proper brewing method
> and hitting it with the lukewarm boiling on the top, room temperature on the
> bottom water that comes out of a microwave is remarkable. The person who
> invents a microwave water boiler that will boil the whole volume will become
> rich!
It doesn't present any issues for instant coffee...
>
> Actually, I have an electric tea pot and one that goes over the ring (gas
> burner) but both are so slow that I rarely used them. Not so with the 230
> volt model.
Since I'm not a tea fan, I expect I'd be better served by one of the
instant hot water dispensers.
>
> Re: installing a special outlet. No big deal. Just snip off that Brit
> monster and attach a standard NEMA 20 amp plug. Long ago I started wiring my
> places with a 240 volt outlet beside each 120 volt one. Two outlet boxes, a
> little more wire and a few more breakers? No big deal. Having 240 volts
> everywhere is one of those things that you don't really appreciate until you
> have it.
No big deal, but I just haven't found a reason to bother. Only my shop
has 240V drops for the mill VFD, plasma cutter and welder.
>
> Being able to put a REAL heater wherever it is needed is one thing. Having
> the commercial carpet steam cleaner be able to plug in at each room without
> having to use any of his jerry-rigging lashups to get 240 is another.
If I need that much heat, I can just use two regular 120 heaters, and I
can't recall ever needing that kind of heat. For my carpets I just use
the rental extractor machine from Depot, it works fine, only needs 120
and all my circuits in the house are 20A anyway.
>
> Having the welder in the bedroom for when the wifey buys a headboard and rails
> that don't quite mate up is another. Toss a welding blanket over the carpet,
> let her get things exactly like she wants 'em, a few seconds' work with the
> little inverter welder and wifey's happy. And I didn't have to drag a half
> mile of extension cord over from the shop.
My short furry wife doesn't buy headboards, and even if she did, I'd
weld them out in the shop where I can setup comfortably to TIG them.
>
> I could go on but you get the picture.
If I want to run the welder in the house (which I wouldn't since it's a
500# Syncrowave 250), I'd just pull the cover on the house panel and
snap a 100A breaker in there to feed the welder.
Vaughn Simon
"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
news:9262h4lrjlgceirc7...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:53:29 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
> Long ago I started wiring my
> places with a 240 volt outlet beside each 120 volt one. Two outlet boxes, a
> little more wire and a few more breakers? No big deal. Having 240 volts
> everywhere is one of those things that you don't really appreciate until you
> have it.
I find that I have less and less use for 220 as AC units become more
efficient. In this hurricane area, what I really wish I had next to each 120
outlet was a 12 volt outlet. I would love to have at least one DC lamp in each
room.
Also, given that grid-tie inverters are so expensive, most of the potential of
my little 100-watt, 12 volt PV system has been going to waste for years.
Vaughn
Vaughn Simon
"Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote in message
news:49116dd2$0$19704$ec3e...@unlimited.usenetmonster.com...
> So you like an architecture that can hide a fault?
Call it "fault tolerant", and you get the idea.
Vaughn
Pete C.
"Fault tolerant" systems normally also include "Fault indication", those
ring mains may tolerate one fault, but it will simply go completely
unnoticed until a second fault drops everything.
Pete C.
If the US switched to higher voltage three phase for all residential
(say 120/208 Wye), and major appliances followed suit, I expect the
additional efficiency would make a nice dent in overall power
consumption.
taber...@mypacks.net
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> If stupidity hurt then there'd be Aspirin in the salt shakers.
a godsend as my neutral is clearly bad
Regarding the transformer diagram – I had mostly concerned myself with
the secondary side…So I am likely wrong assuming that diagram’s ‘open
wye - open delta’ may not be what I have…I see now why term is “split
open delta” – because an open delta exists on both primary and
secondary sides across 2 transformers…I am going to climb fence in
vacationing neighbors yard and have closer look at the pole
transformer connections..
Hope I am not getting too off topic for this forum – but greatly
appreciate the input. Seems I clearly have a problem with the neutral.
I did your test and confirmed issue. I crawled deep into crawlspace to
find grounding wire coming out of wall (from old breaker box). This is
indeed carrying amperage (with similar loads as described in earlier
post – measured just over one amp). Had girl friend start clothes
dryer and amperage shot to 6 amps on this grounding wire to settle out
at 3 amps. Worse yet – I have no grounding rod and this single
grounding wire is bolted (corroded) to galvanized water pipe and the
pipe is taking no current – all the current is going along my ground
wires to an ‘office/bedroom’ no longer used (these grounds I put in
with new wall receptacles about 5 years ago – I ran ground wires in
crawlspace and soldered them to this single grounding wire between
pipe connection and wall exit). Seems the metal conduit has become my
neutral. The only exterior conduit I can find current on is conduit
that goes to my meter box – but I see no neutral connection to meter
box at all. Furthermore – doing some testing – this issue has
suddenly gotten worse – now a (120V) saw suddenly will not start in my
shop – just hums..also transformer in house gas heater to hum
simultaneously (heater is not used this time of year). This issue also
explains many other issues such as a GFI breaker fault to a pool
light I could never figure out (and finally decided was problem in
the buried cable to light – so just ended up disconnecting light and
save digging project for future). Explains why 120V motors like
washing machine dims and 240v appliances like stove and AC do not dim
light. I can’t get into that ‘old’ breaker box (sheet rocked into
wall) because some goof built shelves and sheet rocked in such a way
that one can switch breakers – but can not front cover off to
connections behind.. So you have me realizing I have a problem –
shelves and sheetrock demo happening tonight. I assume my issue must
lie in this old breaker box..??
As the neutral from the pole I can follow no further than from pole to
the ACSR, which then immediately enters brick wall – old breaker box
on interior wall below that entrance.
When I test for voltage across the neutral wire bolt clamp to ACSR –
no voltage drop – to further confirm I took heavy jumper from neutral
wire (on pole side of clamp) to neutral bus bar of exterior (newer)
breaker box – no current. So I conclude my old breaker box has neutral
open or poor connection…or I have no neutral at the pole
transformer ???
Am about to cut a little sheetrock…your comments appreciated..
taber...@mypacks.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
conduit to meter – it has wires with current for spinning meter..
What confuses me is that most of the neutral current is going through
only on of 2 ground wires I put in several years ago – and both of
those simply connect to the new plug-in receptacle’s ground screws –
I now remember there is no conduit – just the 2 original insulated
wires inside wall…This will sound strange and not worth explanation
here – but I can’t get into that room right now – there are no loads
ON in that room that I know of…
So where is the neutral current going..??
Vaughn Simon
<taber...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
news:52b34231-89e8-4ce2...@v16g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>... and both of
>those simply connect to the new plug-in receptacle’s ground screws –
>I now remember there is no conduit – just the 2 original insulated
>wires inside wall…This will sound strange and not worth explanation
>here – but I can’t get into that room right now – there are no loads
>ON in that room that I know of…
>So where is the neutral current going..??
My "best guess" is that the boxes those new outlets are in are somehow
grounded (metal studs?) In that case, the ground path would be through the
outlet mounting screws to the box, to whatever metal the box is touching.
Vaughn
taber...@mypacks.net
Apologies again – I must sound like an idiot - but on further
investigation (this is a very tight crawlspace) I found I had attached
the above said new ground wires to copper pipe AND soldered them to
older ground wire from old breaker panel – and that copper pipe is
indeed carrying the neutral current (to ground)
taber...@mypacks.net
OK – I removed shelves and cut some thick paint sealing cover to wall
and got the old breaker box cover off – surprised to see it looks
great for 60 years old – no cobwebs, no corrosion, all neutral
connections tight, the copper breaker connections still looking like
copper (not oxidized) and are even ‘bright’…Then took jumper (2
parallel jumpers actually) from this neutral bus bar to the incoming
neutral wire on pole side of clamp connection to ACSR (stranded silver
color thick cable – about half inch thick –entering to neutral bus
main connect on old breaker box)…and I still get ZERO current through
my jumpers (I.e. I can’t get current to flow from either of my 2
breaker boxes neutral bus bars to the neutral wire from pole before
it makes any connection to my house – and I DO have current flowing in
my grounded pipes - …does this mean my problem must be for the
utility company??
Vaughn Simon
<taber...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
news:f4910b72-871f-4043...@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 5, 12:37 pm, tabers7...@mypacks.net wrote:
> …does this mean my problem must be for the
>utility company??
Probably, and it probably won't cost you any money to call them at this
point. As John already mentioned, those big tubular crimps that connect the
utility's aluminum cable to your copper cable are notorious for eventually going
bad. I test them by taking advantage of Ohm's law and very carefully measuring
for an AC voltage across them, or I just (being very careful) attach a jumper
cable across the crimp and see if that fixes everything. (This is only for
discussion, of course..telling you what I do. Don't get yourself killed.)
Another thing I do when I suspect a ground problem is to jab a big
screwdriver in the ground as a temporary ground rod, attach the ground wire of
my AV voltmeter to it, and then probe around, looking for voltage on my
ground/neutral wires and pipes as referenced to ground. (there shouldn't be
anything more than a volt or so)
Vaughn
taber...@mypacks.net
wrote:
> <tabers7...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
Hello Vaughn,
Thanks for the input. I have tested the voltage across the clamp frm
the city's neutral to my multi-strand neutral (John above called it
ACSR) and get zero volts. BTW - the cities neutral appears to be
copper - or at least copper clad (I sandpapered it for good
connectrion - i was careful) - but that solid wire seems very small
and is also used to support the other 3 insulated wires fir my 3 phase
input..also it travels quite a distance to the transformer (maybe 300
peet) ..seems an easy think to break - it is 1/8th inch solid wire. I
have not tried to tighten the cities clamp to my ACRS...and I fear to
undo it to clean it may be a big mistake considering status of my
neutral. I have also jumped around it by going from city's neutral (on
their side of clamp) to my nuetral bus bars - no effect - no current
in jumper. I tried your suggestion and drove 2 foot steel bar into
earth near breaker box - but it is hard clay and we are in severe
drought here..with sledge I could only hammer it about a foot in - got
4 volts to my neutral bus..but not sure this is good test as we are so
dry here now.
Vaughn Simon
<taber...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
news:343ed228-5470-49bc...@u29g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>I could only hammer it about a foot in - got
>4 volts to my neutral bus..but not sure this is good test as we are so
>dry here now.
OK, that is telling you what you already knew, you have a bad connection to
the neutral. Now if you can figure out a way to measure from that temp ground
to the point where your neutral connects to the Utility's neutral...
It is starting to sound like the problem is at the pole end.
Vaughn
taber...@mypacks.net
wrote:
> <tabers7...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
Not sure how to do that suggestion Vaughn - except to say - I have a
lot of equipment and materials on my few acres here...My neighbors (28
houses abut muy property - to my shagrin)) think I am kinda crazy but
they tolerate me too...as I fix their $H*t when they really need
it.....I am sort of the Edward-scissors-hand guy with the very strange
huge house in the suburban developed area ( if you have seen that
movie...worth at least one watch)... Anyhow...I have enough crap to
actually run a decent wire to near the pole in neighbors back
yard..and I have several 8 foot ground rods I got off craigs list for
nothing..but I would have to cross a main street to run a cable to
cities ground...not sure I know how that works either..probably not
just simply grounded at pole..???
To anyone who has has responded - thank you very much - a testament to
how great the internet can be - regardless of the subleties between
tea and coffe...I have been around the globe 3x in very remote
locations - and can say one must live with what they can get - tea
heated with a deisel heater and strained thorough ones teeth is
awfully good in a remote Chinese winter location...but her in the good
ol USA - I love my microwave heated instant cofee too....
z
news:c796f46c-1597-4fd6...@o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com:
> To anyone who has has responded - thank you very much - a testament to
> how great the internet can be - regardless of the subleties between
> tea and coffe...I have been around the globe 3x in very remote
> locations - and can say one must live with what they can get - tea
> heated with a deisel heater and strained thorough ones teeth is
> awfully good in a remote Chinese winter location...but her in the good
> ol USA - I love my microwave heated instant cofee too....
Well it was quite the thread even for those of us who didn't respond -- it
reinforces my love of being off grid. Holy crap!! I really regret not
taking any electrical engineering because every third word you guys wrote
was greek to me.
Hope it works out for you man and best wishes even from us lurkers
-zachary
David Williams
-> >4 volts to my neutral bus..but not sure this is good test as we are so
-> >dry here now.
-> OK, that is telling you what you already knew, you have a bad connection
-> the neutral. Now if you can figure out a way to measure from that temp grou
-> to the point where your neutral connects to the Utility's neutral...
-> It is starting to sound like the problem is at the pole end.
-> Vaughn
It's got me wondering if the drought might be messing things up. If the
utility grounds the neutral lines by hammering rods into the ground
near each transformer, and if the ground around the rods is now so dry
that there isn't a good connection, then I can imagine that strange
things might start happening...
dow
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> OK, that is telling you what you already knew, you have a bad connection to
> the neutral. Now if you can figure out a way to measure from that temp ground
> to the point where your neutral connects to the Utility's neutral...
>
> It is starting to sound like the problem is at the pole end.
>
> Vaughn
I had a neutral problem with 1970ish aluminum wire somewhere between
the pole and the meter and had a lot of trouble finding it. One
strange sympton was a power glitch at 4:32 each afternoon. That turned
out to be the shadow of a tree crossing the drop where it ran down the
dark-colored aluminum siding.
Voltage jumps were rare and didn't last long enough to trace. I found
the problem well enough to convince the electric company to replace
the cables and meter by measuring currents with a clamp-on ammeter.
With an unbalanced load, current in the neutral was zero but the cold
water pipe showed 30 Amps.
Jim Wilkins
Neon John
>
>Neon John wrote:
>> Whacky? Hardly. I LIKE the ring architecture. I like it ever better after
>> spending a smothering hot day in a customer's attic, trying to figure out why
>> continuity had been lost between an outlet and the breaker panel. Said
>> discontinuity being a wire nut that fell off inside a pull box (all code-legal
>> and all) where wiring had been changed during a remodel.
>
>So you like an architecture that can hide a fault?
Why yes, actually I do. It's called fault tolerant. It's why everything from
telephone to cable TV to electrical distribution is arranged in rings.
If you'd asked the more relevant and thoughtful question, "Do I like an
architecture where faults are difficult to detect?", then we could have a
conversation. My first response would be to ask you do divide faults into
those that don't matter much and those that bring down the system. Then we
could converse some more.
>
>>
>> As far as fusing (actually breakering nowadays) at the outlet, which would you
>> rather do after tripping a breaker? Walk over to wherever the load that
>> caused the trip is plugged in and reset the breaker or tromp down a couple of
>> flights of stairs into the musty cellar, knock away the cobwebs, find the
>> panel and figure out which one tripped?
>
>I'd prefer to walk over to my cobweb free, clearly labeled QO panel
>where I can easily see the orange trip indicator on the breaker and
>reset it, vs. climbing over or moving furniture to get to the outlet
>behind the sofa.
Just out of curiosity, does your nice neat house belong to you or a mortgage
company?
Also, just out of curiosity, why do you have outlets behind furniture? Is
yours some sort of contractor's spec house where the wiring barely meets code
or did you have it built to fit your needs? Whether resetting breakers or
just plugging and unplugging stuff, outlets behind furniture are the spawn of
the devil.
Here, this place is bought and paid for and has been for the 30 years since I
built it. With only one or two exceptions, accounted for by redecorating over
the years, there are no outlets behind furniture. There ARE outlets on almost
every stud, most 4 ft off the floor so I don't have to bend over. Every room
has 3 breakers, one for each of the two pair of walls and a third lighting
breaker. Plus the 240 outlets, of course.
That the breaker panel is in the basement was a mis-communication. I wanted a
sub-panel down there for my shop tools and my contractor mis-understood that
to mean the main panel. After the fact, what do you do other than grin'n'bear
it? Especially since he did everything else, without exception, exactly like
I wanted it.
My house's wiring is about as close to perfect as it could be considering its
age. After all, who in 1970 would have guessed that a house might contain a
couple hundred wall warts? Or that one might have a battery-backed UPS system
and therefore need the wiring split into Vital Bus and Balance of Plant? I'm
just about finished fixing the second problem, spliting the wiring into two
groups, one to run on the UPS one not. Then I'm going to get rid of the other
spawn of the Devil, outlet strips, probably with Wire Mold.
I'd STILL rather have the British-style system with breakers at the outlets
and 230 volts as the common convenience outlet voltage.
>If I want to run the welder in the house (which I wouldn't since it's a
>500# Syncrowave 250), I'd just pull the cover on the house panel and
>snap a 100A breaker in there to feed the welder.
I guess that you have to do that kind of crap when you only have one welder. I
have the Miller 195 for MIG, Miller Dynasty 200DX inverter welder for stick
and TIG and the little ChiCom-made lunchbox inverter welder that barely weighs
25 lbs for on-the-go and on-the-ladder jobs. And the old Lincoln engine
driven unit that I really need to sell now that I have the inverter welders
and a couple of good generators.
Not to forget the 24 volt MIG spool gun unit that runs on 2 12 volt car
batteries. I use that a lot over in the ORV areas where I can weld 'em back
up on the spot rather than their having to drag 'em on trailers out for
repair. I think that a generator and the Dynasty will be replacing that
setup, as the battery life is kinda short.
If you ever decide to upgrade to something modern, take a look at the Dynasty
line. Other than the old Miller motor-generator set sitting somewhere in my
warehouse, I've never used a welder any smoother on DC and that includes that
old Synchrowave. At 45 lbs, it's not quite a lunchbox welder but OTOH, I
don't need a crane to move it like that old Synchrowave.
If I had it to do over again I think that I'd move up a model to the Dynasty
350DX. I've done some aluminum boat hull repairs where the duty cycle limit
of the 250 was inconvenient. OTOH, at 135 lbs, it definitely isn't
man-portable. Or maybe I ought to stick with the 250 and rent when I need
something larger.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
You can't turn [MS] shovelware into reliable software by patching it a whole lot. -Marcus Ranum
Neon John
>
>If the US switched to higher voltage three phase for all residential
>(say 120/208 Wye), and major appliances followed suit, I expect the
>additional efficiency would make a nice dent in overall power
>consumption.
That'd be kinda silly for a major architectural change.
If we're going to make a major change, let's go with straight 240 delta with
240 volt single phase loads scattered across the legs for balance. Now THAT
would probably have the effect you desire. I'd prefer to let the system float
with a ground fault detector (but not interrupter) as part of the panel but if
the safety nazis insist, a grounding transformer can be included.
So many benefits accrue. Standard HID lamps require only chokes and not the
complex voltage boosting ballasts now necessary for starting lamps on 120.
Ditto with the lower wattage fluorescent lamps. With fused (or more likely
PTC'd) plugs, appliance cords could be as light as telephone cords, at least
for the lower powered appliances like vacuum cleaners, mixers and stuff.
Even the high powered appliances would use cords roughly equivalent to today's
120 volt ones. My almost 4kw Brit tea kettle has what is close to a 14 ga
cord. Nice.
high voltage incandescent lamps are the only problem area from a manufacturing
and lifetime standpoint but they're on their way out so not a problem.
Besides, the Brits have the lamp thing figured out already.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Neon John
> The only exterior conduit I can find current on is conduit
>that goes to my meter box – but I see no neutral connection to meter
>box at all. Furthermore – doing some testing – this issue has
>suddenly gotten worse – now a (120V) saw suddenly will not start in my
>shop – just hums..also transformer in house gas heater to hum
>simultaneously (heater is not used this time of year).
This is the point where you need to STOP and get a professional with the
proper equipment - my suggestion is your utility - involved before you start
burning stuff up. You're causing the "sneak circuit" that constitutes your
neutral to change characteristics by poking around. When you manage to cause
that sneak circuit to open up then you're going to burn out a lot of stuff and
maybe start a fire.
If I were there right now, I'd open both main breakers and then start checking
the neutral connections with my milli-ohmmeter. This is another one of those
very expensive, utility-specific pieces of test equipment that can investigate
the problem without risking your electrical system.
I'd start at the neutral bus on the panel that's acting up and start measuring
back toward the meter. Given the age of your house and the kludged nature of
the wiring, there is no telling how the neutral is handled. There may be a
split-bolt connection inside the wall. Or, as is frequently the problem, both
neutrals are installed under the neutral lug in the meter base that is
designed for only one cable.
If I found high resistance between the neutral buses in the two boxes, I'd
call the utility with an open-neutral problem and have them pull the meter so
I could inspect the neutral connection. Experience tells me that the problem
is likely to be there. If not then we'll look at the ACSR to house neutral
transition. Like I said before, copper to aluminum is prone to electrolytic
corrosion unless done right.
If everything is OK to there then it's back to the utility. They have a
tester that plugs into the meter base (basically a pair of switchable heavy
loads and a pair of voltmeters) that checks the circuit back to the
transformer.
At this point I'm betting on either a problem in the meter base or something
REALLY whacky behind the sheet rock. Something like a brass split bolt being
used on aluminum wire without any NoAlox or equiv anti-corrosive compound.
>Am about to cut a little sheetrock…your comments appreciated..
Probably 50-50 odds of something being under there so cutting the sheet-rock
is a good first step. PLEASE open the main breakers and use flashlights,
lanterns or whatever else you have for light while you do this. If cutting
the sheetrock disturbs the already bad connection and makes some sparks, they
could ignite zillion-year old cobwebs and in a heartbeat, you have fire in the
attic or space between floors. BTDT. Ain't pretty.
OPEN THE DAMNED BREAKERS AND KILL THE POWER while you're troubleshooting!!!!
OK?
I'm kind of an anti-safety-nazi but this is one instance where you need to
slow down and be very careful. With the main breakers open and the house
de-energized, you can probably fix what is wrong if it is behind the sheet
rock but use your voltmeter and make DAMNED SURE that there's nothing there,
that a neighbor's house isn't feeding back through yours. There also could be
loads feeding off the upstream side of the main breakers.
Good dry leather work gloves offer enough electrical protection for dealing
with this neutral problem. Please do NOT try to do it bare handed. Many a
lineman has been burned or killed by picking up a "dead" line off the ground
without using his gloves.
Finally, I should mention that whacky problems like this often show up after
someone like the previous owner has "engineered" his own little scheme for
stealing power. This is often done by drilling through the back of the meter
box and attaching wires by a variety of methods. Most thieves don't really
understand what they're doing and think that they have to connect to the
neutral also in order to complete the theft circuit. More often than not,
they screw things up.
The possibility of power theft arose in my mind when you quoted those tiny
amperage readings on your main legs. It's hard to even have a few lights on
and not draw over 10 amps.
I repeat the above warning. I think that it's time to get the utility
involved in this problem. If someone has rigged up a power theft connection,
you do NOT want the utility reps to see where you've been digging in the walls
and stuff. They're as likely to think that YOU messed up an attempt at theft
as that you were just troubleshooting.
Whatever problem you find, please take photos and post them somewhere. You
now have my curiosity jacked WAY up!
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Neon John
>To anyone who has has responded - thank you very much - a testament to
>how great the internet can be - regardless of the subleties between
>tea and coffe...I have been around the globe 3x in very remote
>locations - and can say one must live with what they can get - tea
>heated with a deisel heater and strained thorough ones teeth is
>awfully good in a remote Chinese winter location...but her in the good
>ol USA - I love my microwave heated instant cofee too....
Instant coffee. Ughhhh. My stomach roils at the thought.
Let me correct one bit of terminology. ACSR is the silver uninsulated wire in
the twisted bundle that drops from your pole to your weather head (what we
call a peckerhead :-) It is a steel cable with aluminum wrapped around it.
The steel is there to give it the strength to withstand ice, tree limbs, small
trees and other adverse events and the aluminum carries the current.
The silver wire that runs from your weather head to your breaker panel through
the meter base is just plain aluminum wire. No need for strength so the steel
is left out.
Most older jobs and GOOD modern ones run copper wire from the weatherhead
through the meter to the panel's main breaker. It's more expensive but it
doesn't corrode and for a given current rating, the wire can be considerably
smaller.
This brings us back to that all-important connection between the ACSR neutral
and the aluminum conductors of the utility drop and the corresponding cables
at your weatherhead. If copper is used from the weatherhead inward then the
connection must be done especially carefully to avoid corrosion.
The traditional method of making up this joint is a crimped connector. The
actual connector is a tin-plated copper ferrule with a figure 8 hole through
the center. One cable is inserted in each and then "squeezers" (big crimpers
that look like huge bolt cutters) crimp the joint so tightly that
theoretically there is enough cold flow of metal that a weld-like bond forms
between the crimp ferrule and the cables. The ferrule usually comes from the
factory with anti-corrosion goo in each hole. It is typical to make 4
squeezes along the ferrule.
There are zillions of these connectors in service and they work excellently as
long as the "squeezers" aren't worn or out of adjustment. If it doesn't
squeeze hard enough to cause cold metal flow and inter-metallic compounds to
form, eventually water will creep in and corrosion will develop and the joint
will fail.
There are two new technologies on the market. Crimpless and powder-driven
crimping. I have utility clients that are trying both types.
The crimpless connector is somewhat like a Chinese finger trap. Thousands of
little spring loaded sharp needles point inward. The stripped end of the
cable is inserted, one in each end, the joint is given a good tug to seat the
needles and the job's done.
The utility that is trying them loves them so far but I'm not impressed. I
see too much room for corrosion after the thing ages for a few years and the
anti-corrosive goo leaks out. There is no crimp to keep it there like with
the ferrules.
The second one I'm much more impressed with. It also involves a ferrule and
crimping but in this case, the motive power for the crimp is supplied by an
explosive instead of human power. The ferrule is inserted in this gadget,
something that looks like an inside-out shotgun shell is also inserted (primer
is on the INSIDE) into the gadget and the cables are inserted into the ferrule
holes. A sharp smack with a hammer fires the explosive which drives the
crimper. It does all 4 "squeezes" at one time and does them exactly the same
every time.
I wasn't sure about this technology until I took a crimped ferrule home and
sawed it open in my shop. The copper and the aluminum strands really had
metallugically bonded to the ferrule. I had to peel them away to get them to
come loose. One aluminum strand broke before it de-bonded from the ferrule.
OK, so now I'm impressed!
Besides, the "shotgun shells" are fun to play with. Take about a half inch
diameter bold a few inches long and grind a tapered point on it. Stick it
into the mouth of the "shell". The point rests on the primer which is inside
the cartridge. Toss the assembly high up in the air so that it'll come down
on pavement.
The bolt head will fall forward and when it hits, the point fires the primer
and the shell blasts off out of sight! Makes a nice racket too. I know more
than one foreman who's left skidmarks in his pants when his crew tossed one of
these near his truck as he was getting out :-)
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Pete C.
Neon John wrote:
>
> On Wed, 05 Nov 2008 03:57:06 -0600, "Pete C." <aux3....@snet.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Neon John wrote:
>
> >> Whacky? Hardly. I LIKE the ring architecture. I like it ever better after
> >> spending a smothering hot day in a customer's attic, trying to figure out why
> >> continuity had been lost between an outlet and the breaker panel. Said
> >> discontinuity being a wire nut that fell off inside a pull box (all code-legal
> >> and all) where wiring had been changed during a remodel.
> >
> >So you like an architecture that can hide a fault?
>
> Why yes, actually I do. It's called fault tolerant.
It's only fault tolerant if it includes fault indication so the one
fault can be fixed before a second fault comes along and drops
everything.
> It's why everything from
> telephone to cable TV to electrical distribution is arranged in rings.
No they aren't. I used to work for a cable company, and the architecture
was definitely not a ring. I spent plenty of time working with telcos
and once again the bulk of the architecture is not ring based (yes there
are some rings, but most is not).
>
> If you'd asked the more relevant and thoughtful question, "Do I like an
> architecture where faults are difficult to detect?", then we could have a
> conversation. My first response would be to ask you do divide faults into
> those that don't matter much and those that bring down the system. Then we
> could converse some more.
That is what I asked - "So you like an architecture that can hide a
fault?" hiding the fault and making it difficult to detect are
synonymous. A UK style ring main can still function without outward
signs of a fault, when one exists, making it difficult for the user to
detect a.k.a. hiding the fault.
>
> >
> >>
> >> As far as fusing (actually breakering nowadays) at the outlet, which would you
> >> rather do after tripping a breaker? Walk over to wherever the load that
> >> caused the trip is plugged in and reset the breaker or tromp down a couple of
> >> flights of stairs into the musty cellar, knock away the cobwebs, find the
> >> panel and figure out which one tripped?
> >
> >I'd prefer to walk over to my cobweb free, clearly labeled QO panel
> >where I can easily see the orange trip indicator on the breaker and
> >reset it, vs. climbing over or moving furniture to get to the outlet
> >behind the sofa.
>
> Just out of curiosity, does your nice neat house belong to you or a mortgage
> company?
Like most people, both.
>
> Also, just out of curiosity, why do you have outlets behind furniture? Is
> yours some sort of contractor's spec house where the wiring barely meets code
> or did you have it built to fit your needs? Whether resetting breakers or
> just plugging and unplugging stuff, outlets behind furniture are the spawn of
> the devil.
Actually, it was in a group of houses that were some kind of all
electric showcase and the original owners all worked for the utility, so
it was mostly done right from the start, like all copper, all 12ga/20A
circuits, etc. The original panel was a stab-loc unfortunately, but I
fixed that problem in short order.
In actuality, in my house setup I have few outlets behind furniture, but
I used that example since I see many buried outlets in other's homes.
>
> Here, this place is bought and paid for and has been for the 30 years since I
> built it. With only one or two exceptions, accounted for by redecorating over
> the years, there are no outlets behind furniture. There ARE outlets on almost
> every stud, most 4 ft off the floor so I don't have to bend over. Every room
> has 3 breakers, one for each of the two pair of walls and a third lighting
> breaker. Plus the 240 outlets, of course.
If I were building new, my electrical design would be non-traditional as
well. Most folks don't have the luxury of building new to their specs
however.
>
> That the breaker panel is in the basement was a mis-communication. I wanted a
> sub-panel down there for my shop tools and my contractor mis-understood that
> to mean the main panel. After the fact, what do you do other than grin'n'bear
> it? Especially since he did everything else, without exception, exactly like
> I wanted it.
These days, my home design would be in a CAD design and there would be
detailed prints. Of course I would also be doing all the electrical
myself anyway. I tend to do everything myself these days, since it seems
the only way to get it done right. http://wpnet.us/power/index.htm my
big power upgrade here, primarily for my shop, but I replaced the
stab-loc POS house panel in the process.
>
> My house's wiring is about as close to perfect as it could be considering its
> age. After all, who in 1970 would have guessed that a house might contain a
> couple hundred wall warts?
My house is vintage 1970. They at least got the all 20A circuits and
plenty of them right.
> Or that one might have a battery-backed UPS system
> and therefore need the wiring split into Vital Bus and Balance of Plant? I'm
> just about finished fixing the second problem, spliting the wiring into two
> groups, one to run on the UPS one not. Then I'm going to get rid of the other
> spawn of the Devil, outlet strips, probably with Wire Mold.
I have just two UPSes, a large 1.42kVA with my server rack in the
garage, and a smaller 1kVA in my office. The garage UPS has a run time
of around an hour under the load that is on it, the office a fair amount
less, but I can have a generator online in about 5 minutes anyway.
>
> I'd STILL rather have the British-style system with breakers at the outlets
> and 230 volts as the common convenience outlet voltage.
I'm with you on the 230 volts, assuming all common appliances went that
way as well and indeed many of the items I have are switchable or auto
ranging as it is. I'm not with you on the breakers at the outlets
however. Of course, I can't recall the last time I tripped a beaker
either.
>
> >If I want to run the welder in the house (which I wouldn't since it's a
> >500# Syncrowave 250), I'd just pull the cover on the house panel and
> >snap a 100A breaker in there to feed the welder.
>
> I guess that you have to do that kind of crap when you only have one welder. I
> have the Miller 195 for MIG, Miller Dynasty 200DX inverter welder for stick
> and TIG and the little ChiCom-made lunchbox inverter welder that barely weighs
> 25 lbs for on-the-go and on-the-ladder jobs. And the old Lincoln engine
> driven unit that I really need to sell now that I have the inverter welders
> and a couple of good generators.
I've not run across any welding project that I couldn't readily do in my
shop. My Syncrowave does my TIG and stick, and I've not found a need for
a MIG. I do have O/A for portability if I need it, but mostly it's for
portable cutting and for heating for bending or preheat. I also have a
plasma cutter in the shop, it takes a 50A 240V feed as well as air via a
refrigerated dryer.
>
> Not to forget the 24 volt MIG spool gun unit that runs on 2 12 volt car
> batteries. I use that a lot over in the ORV areas where I can weld 'em back
> up on the spot rather than their having to drag 'em on trailers out for
> repair. I think that a generator and the Dynasty will be replacing that
> setup, as the battery life is kinda short.
You seem to have more mobile welding projects than I do.
>
> If you ever decide to upgrade to something modern, take a look at the Dynasty
> line. Other than the old Miller motor-generator set sitting somewhere in my
> warehouse, I've never used a welder any smoother on DC and that includes that
> old Synchrowave. At 45 lbs, it's not quite a lunchbox welder but OTOH, I
> don't need a crane to move it like that old Synchrowave.
The Syncrowave 250 is 1995 vintage, not exactly an antique the much
older Syncrowave 300 is probably what you're thinking of. Since I do 99%
TIG it is a far better machine for me than any inverter unit.
>
> If I had it to do over again I think that I'd move up a model to the Dynasty
> 350DX. I've done some aluminum boat hull repairs where the duty cycle limit
> of the 250 was inconvenient. OTOH, at 135 lbs, it definitely isn't
> man-portable. Or maybe I ought to stick with the 250 and rent when I need
> something larger.
The Syncrowave 250 isn't man portable either, but I can readily move it.
I'm used to moving heavy stuff around anyway.
taber...@mypacks.net
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
John –…regarding coffee - after living in Colombia for a year I became
a bit of a coffee snob and I too hate instant…I guess I was just
trying to be philosophical in that comment….But to main point:
Thanks so much for your input. I DID have the utility company out this
morning. That was difficult for me as I am a huge skeptic in the
competence of such folks around here (we have many a feud over the
years – me and the Utility company) ….So I bit the bullet and called
them and they promptly came out this morning. They took a few voltage
measurements at my exterior breaker and they said “I don’t have a
problem” – all my voltages are ‘good’. I explained my issues as above
and that all neutral current is through my pipes – he just shrugged
and said (in essence) I’d have a voltage drop at the neutral if that
were true (my contention that the earth had become my neutral path
must be false)…Arrgg…I pushed it a little and showed him 3 possible
suspect U-bolt clamp neutral connections – again he shrugged and said
‘your voltages are fine’ and he refused to go up the pole. So I
repeated “So you think all is fine here at this house?..even though I
have current in my water pipes?” – he said he’d check one more thing
and went to his truck and brought back a clothes iron – he broke seal
on meter box and then hooked up the iron and read voltages at terminal
inside meter box – and he confirmed “everything is fine”……
I have a lone pole in my backyard dedicated to my line only where the
lines make a 90 degree direction change). At that pole I can see 2
Ubolt clamps besides the one at my ‘pecker head’. BTW – I have 2
‘pecker’ heads, and no ACSR (thanks for clarification), and the
connections are what I call U-bolt clamps (in this case a
longitudinally slotted bolt with nut to screw down on wires placed in
the bolt slot). There once WAS an ACRS connection and the cable is
still anchored to my fascia board – but it is connected to nothing at
both ends (ends at my lone pole and my roof) – just a cable doing
absolutely nothing. Furthermore I see NO exterior neutral connection
to meter – that connection appears to be made by first going through
my old breaker box (inside house) and then going back through wall to
exterior meter box – then to newer exterior breaker box. The city’s
neutral is copper wire and this wire also supports my three insulated
hot wires. This then U-bolts to a ½ inch thick stranded cable that
goes straight into wall to inside breaker box. Each strand of this
large cable appears to be copper coated steel. I can not see this
cable in the wall, but do not believe it is likely to be broken in
side the wall considering it’s thickness/strength…but I am considering
removing sheetrock to check. I am unable to turn my off power until
later – as I run a bank of computers (inside a private corporate WAN)
that others rely on…but I have been given permission to shut them off
in a few hours.
I use JAlbum a good bit and will create website with pictures today –
tell me if there is any specific ones you’d like…took day off from
work to deal with this – will be very careful…thanks again so much.
Kurt
Mike
>I'd STILL rather have the British-style system with breakers at the outlets
Eh?
What breakers at the outlets?
--
Vaughn Simon
<taber...@mypacks.net> wrote in message
news:f1731f4a-620d-4bb2...@e1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 6, 9:11 am, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>and the connections are what I call U-bolt clamps (in this case a
>longitudinally slotted bolt with nut to screw down on wires placed in
>the bolt slot).
That is called a "split bolt". For outdoor use, particularly when used as a
copper-aluminum splice, they are FAR inferior to crimped splices. Their only
advantage is that they require no special tools.
Sorry, you are apparently dealing with incompetents.
Vaughn
Jim Wilkins
> ...So I bit the bullet and called
> them and they promptly came out this morning. They took a few voltage
> measurements at my exterior breaker and they said “I don’t have a
> problem” – all my voltages are ‘good’. I explained my issues as above
> and that all neutral current is through my pipes – he just shrugged
> and said (in essence) I’d have a voltage drop at the neutral if that
> were true (my contention that the earth had become my neutral path
> must be false)…
The crew that listened to me and fixed the neutral problem at my house
normally worked on high voltage transmission lines. Apparently there
was a labor dispute and the usual crews were idle.
David Williams
-> Eh?
-> What breakers at the outlets?
The British system has fuses in the *plugs*. (I suppose some of them
may now have breakers.) So the fuse (or maybe breaker) is attached to
the appliance, and can be rated to match the appliance's needs. The
outlets are (almost) all identical, They're wired to a breaker box,
pretty much like in North America, except that the circuit is usually a
"ring" one.
dow
taber...@mypacks.net
In regards to problem in OP - the following is bit of a rant – so to
summarize and to give closure to those who have helped me - The
problem with the open neutral appears solved – although mysteriously
if you read on – a bit of a rant
About mid afternoon - with NO change to any house circuitry, and no
explanation from the city – my ‘open neutral’ problem vanished. This
happening after utility man came out this morning and left with final
words “Everything is good to this meter. Everything on the other side
of meter is yours. If you think you have a problem you need to call an
electrician”. I knew I still had a problem and was disappointed by
city’s response as I was pretty sure I had an open neutral on their
side – they wouldn’t even climb a pole or hardly look at my ideas of
some possible problem areas on their side. That statement utility guy
said after few simple hot to neutral voltage checks and then finally
hooking up a clothes iron to connections inside my meter box. I
figured the ‘iron test’ was measuring for a significant voltage drop
from a hot to neutral with a load applied . (I had pointed out to him
that when he previously measured voltage and called it ‘good’ on one
of 2 breaker panels – and the one he measured served my shop only
and so zero load was currently on that panel –so voltage may look OK
even with a bad neutral..I probably shouldn’t have said anything).
Anyhow – determined to further suss this problem on my own - I decide
to create quick website with pictures of issue for better
understanding for web help out there(John request) (and I can still
post pictures if anyone is still interested considering recent
developments). So I took pictures of all my opened panels, and my
multiple suspicious split-bolt neutral connections etc…and just before
I turn off power to entire house for deeper troubleshooting (as per
John’s emails above – to PLEASE TURN OFF THE POWER) - I decide to run
my own load test (guess I just like to run experiments). So hooked up
voltmeter from hot to neutral in panel and had my girlfriend sit there
to read meter when the lights dim when I start troubled saw in shop..
Well behold – the saw has never started faster or hummed and strained
less when spinning up, Furthermore girlfriend said lights never dimmed
– so she got no reading. Hmmmm…problem gone ??? what happened???…So I
measure again current in my lines coming in – get 3.2A, and 5.2 A…and
now for the first time I have current on the neutral at a close to the
difference – the expected 2A. For ther first time since I started
messing with this issue – I have current in neutral from pole. And as
expected the current in the ‘live’ copper water pipe in crawlspace has
fallen to nill..starting up a clothes dryer I can get 0.3 amps for
just a second or 2 then nill (yesterday the clothes drier put 7 amps
through the pipes) ….then another strange thing happened as girl
representing utilities called me to ask if my “power was back on”. I
said it was never off, and after verification of address I told her I
made a call about an open neutral to which I was told it was
“OK”..she thanked me and that was it…Hmmm…something very significant
happened as all problems are gone and the house current has never been
better – toaster and microwave can now run simultaneously with out
microwave slowing down or blowing internal fuse, 110 volt saws and
other motors has never been faster to start, lights do not dim on
120volt motor start....etc …
So di the city fix something or not??...I MUST have had an open
neutral for some time and the earth as neutral got really poor lately
as we are in the severest drought in 30 years Yet the city left me
with final advice to “call an electrician” – who would have come out
and said I have ‘no problem’…This is precisely why I took a community
college ‘degree’ in electronics – electricity is everywhere and
ubiquitous in our lives – we better understand at least how our house
operates – even though I try – still yet I have had a chronic and
dangerous problem with my neutral…one I have tried to suss - and now
believe was city’s issue all along – and they aren’t being honest
about it. I run a bank of computers and 6 LCD screens for my employer
and I several years ago wired a ground to protect those computers and
that was all that saved me from possible disaster – and it was very
tenuaous - an automotive hose clamp holding ground wire to copper
plumbing…Jeeezzz….I have learned some things…I always felt if I keep
my equipment in good condition – cords wires etc..that the worry of
having no grounds on most of this house wasn’t that big a deal – but
it is a big deal if the city fails to give you a neutral connection!!!
How many other houses have this issue ???– and the average Joe isn’t
going do anything about the warning signs – even if he understands
them..hell I understood the warning signs and still let it ride for
long tmie…(now I feel foolish and lucky)
Or…..do I have an intermittent problem and nothing was really fixed –
just coincidental with the city coming out and saying “all is well”
even though they did nothing??????..I doubt the issue is intermittent
and the city fixed something without admitting it…but my friends say
I’m paranoid and too suspicious…
And to add a little to the mystery – no one went up my ‘private’
pole with the suspicious and very old split-bolt connectors – and I
can’t see the pole with the transformer from my property..so I don’t
know if anyone went up that pole…did the city fix something or
not???...one thing I did do after they left this morning – I scraped
my multi-strand heavy neutral cable connected to city’s thin copper
neutral wire to determine what it was made of (I used wooden handled
knife and gloves and in sneakers) I also gave it a bend test. It is
very hard to bend - I did not bend it - and is at least copper clad
if not all copper….did I jar the split bolt connection to make a
tenuous connection???..seems my jumper around that split bolt (which
didn’t help anything) would say no..and any wind would do the same as
my scraping…
BTW – John – your idea about mods regarding previous theft attempt was
interesting but I know house history (elderly folks) and that seemed
unlikely..but still I added up all loads in typical day here – bank
of computers and 6 LCD screens and some digital clocks – my house mate
is OCD about keeping lights off all the time andd weather is perfect
76 degrees so no AC or heat or fans needed. I figure I should be using
about 6 amps for the computer equipment…get about 8.5 amps current
being used for entire house w refrigerator off. So yes – my load
‘static’ daily load is low I suppose..
And one more development – I now measure across my 3 phase fuses –
248, 246, and 245 volts (not much load applied )…Is it normal to
fluctuate 10 volts on these hot leads from day to day??
Again - Thanks you much to those have responded – if you are ever in
Austin Texas – add the numbers 823 behind the 7 on my screen
name ..and you have one of my emails - I’ll buy you a couple beers..or
more…
Kurt
Mike
I knew all that...being British! It's the mention of breakers that
confused me. The plugs always have fuses fitted (without exception)
usually 3A, 5A or 13A although there are fuses available in a number
of other ratings - 1A, 2A, 7A and 10A.
The only plugs that have breakers as such are ones that have a RCD
integrated in an enlarged plug body, but despite that they are always
without exception fused. They were common maybe 15 years ago for
lawnmowers and hedge cutters but are much less so now when whole house
RCD's are mandated for new installations and commonly retrofitted in
many properties
In older installations without a whole house RCD, a dedicated socket
outlet for outdoor equipment use that incorporates an RCD's was
occasionally fitted although their cost approaches that of a low end
whole house RCD and MCB consumer unit.
--
Johnny B Good
from david.w...@bayman.org (David Williams) contains these words:
The british 13 amp plug (typically referred to as "Plugtop" - don't
ask, I don't know either! ;-) have a small cartridge fuse fitted. This
is only accessable when the appliance is unplugged. It can be fused with
either a 1, 2, 3, 5, 7[1], 10 or 13 amp fuse.
The fuse rating is supposed to be determined by the cord's amperage
rating. Sometimes this alone will suffice to protect the appliance as
well (typically kettles, toasters and so on), but low power devices will
have their own, suitably rated, fuse protection, leaving the 1 or 2 or 3
amp fuse to protect the appliance cord.
Since this is an essential part of the safety feature in this system
intended to guard against non -routine events on an indivual appliance,
a cheap and cost effective fuse is all that is required. A mini cb in a
plugtop is simply an unnecessary 'luxury'. Hell! even circuit breakers
on the consumer unit are totally overkill. I've been living in this
property for just over 25 years now and never had a (re-wirable yet!)
fuse bridge blow.
That 13 amp plugtop limit limits the maximum KVA rating to 3 for a
nominal 240vac supply. I have one such appliance, an electric kettle
(which doubles up quite nicely as a 2.5KW test load on the 221vac from
my recently purchased PowerCraft 2.8KVA max (2.5KVA continuous) rated
petrol (gasoline) backup generator).
Unfortunately, even after reducing the rpms on the governor [2] to
bring the frequency down to 52Hz on no load (49Hz full load) from its
original 53.5Hz, I'm still having problems with my venerable APC
Smart-UPS 2000I despite setting the dip switch to desensitise it to poor
quality supply. Apparently, it can be desentised even more through
software but I have yet to make up the interface cable to test this. If
I can't get this setup to work, I'll be returning it as unsafe
_as_well_as_ not fit for purpose since the tank fuel guage has a serious
leak which only shows up when fully fuelled and represents a serious
fire hazard (I'd already replaced the stepped rubber washer on the fuel
tap connection to the tank which had started leaking)
Apparently (after a googling marathon) this is quite a common problem
whenever an UPS is involved. Not only is the excessive speed setting a
common issue (eg 64 Hz for an american generator - well outside of the
+/-5% limits for a UPS), but, after recording the generator waveform
using a quality 12vac output wallwart to isolate the laptop from the
mains, using a resistor network to reduce the 12vac down to half a volt
for the line input and analysing the frequency spectrum, I'm not
surprised!
The output contains considerable harmonic content, the effect of which
is quite visible to the naked eye when expanding the display to show a
cycle or two. I thought the utility power's "approximation to a sine
wave" was bad enough, but that generator makes this look 'pure' by
comparison! I can't understand why they can make something so simple (a
sine wave) so bad.
Incidently, the sinewave output from the APC Smart-UPS 2000I looks
purer than the utility supply's effort. I suspect the departure from
sinewave is most likely due to the load characteristics rather than the
utility's generators.
[1] The 7 amp fuse is not a commonly available one. The most common fuse
ratings being 3, 5 and 13 amp (with 13 amp being the most common).
[2] No help whatsoever from the manufacturer's website, just a closer
inspection of the throttle control linkage to see that this was
obviously determined by an adjustment screw.
--
Regards, John.
Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying.
The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots.
taber...@mypacks.net
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.comhttp://www.johndearmond.com<-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Hello John - Thanks again for your input. I posted earlier how the day
went regarding that open neutral (but I made it in reponse to wrong
poster). Here are some pictures at link below if still interested. I
worry about my connections near the weatherhead...but when utility
guys come out and I point to those and ask what they think -they
usually say something to effect "it's old but I've seen
worse..."...Comments solocited and appreciated
http://home.earthlink.net/~nottrusted/HouseElectric%20Service_Nov2008/index.html
taber...@mypacks.net
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> I don't speak Stupid so do speak slowly.
probably unreasonable to think city utility would do something to
solve my problem and not tell me. The most likely scenario is that the
utility company did indeed do nothing and my problem was solved the
evening prior to the morning they came out. I had opened the original
breaker box which looked to have not been opened in 2 decades if ever…
not even a bit of dust in there. All the neutral connections were
tight and ‘looked’ fine but still I did crank the 2 main screw
terminals another 1/16th inch turn…tight as I dared considering the
copper threads. I didn’t think it was enough to change anything and
didn’t re-test my open neutral issue. I believe this main neutral
cable enters to my interior breaker box before the meter box – another
thick cable goes from neutral bar into wall again – I think that one
must go to the meter box (running inside the wall so this I cannot
see to prove) . If that is true – then my interior breaker box holds
the single neutral connection that fed to all other neutrals (the
meter and the exterior breaker box).Maybe when I cranked those screws
a 1/16th of a turn I made the connection – I was just lucky that box’s
ground wire had remained connected to the incoming neutral cable to
feed neutral through my water pipes....or perhaps that wouldn’t be
considered lucky ….One thing that this event has taught me is the
volume of cold metal to metal (screw or clamp or pinch) contacts
there are getting power from the pole to a load in one’s house – I am
surprised how well things work after they are 60 years old… Here are
pictures – click on thumbnail for larger picture and caption – see
picture 8 for screws I crankled:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nottrusted/HouseElectric%20Service_Nov2008/
Gordon
news:f2896816-ae76-4b32...@r15g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> Hello John - Thanks again for your input. I posted earlier how the day
> went regarding that open neutral (but I made it in reponse to wrong
> poster). Here are some pictures at link below if still interested. I
> worry about my connections near the weatherhead...but when utility
> guys come out and I point to those and ask what they think -they
> usually say something to effect "it's old but I've seen
> worse..."...Comments solocited and appreciated
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nottrusted/HouseElectric%20Service_Nov2008/i
> ndex.html
>
I would agree with the electric guys. Your service head is old,
but appears to be generaly sound.
I am concerned about the lack of standards in the wireing of the
3-phase disconnect box. Usually white wires are neutral, Black
Red, and Blue are the three hot phases. However, if it works...
I just shows that the person who wired it up wasn't a pro. Probably
a DIY job.
That hose clamp around the pipe for the ground should be replaced
with a proper wire clamp.
taber...@mypacks.net
Thanks for input Gordon - esp regarding my weather head - I already
have picked up some ground rods I intend to (try) to sink into this
hard clay - this house came with no grounding rods (built 1949) and
now that I see through example see how important a good ground and
neutral connections are - I fully intent to very soon repalce that
clamp to copper pipe - although I have read/been told that around here
they don't like a ground to water pipes - I am still going do it..
Looking at the incoming service I do believe this house (originally a
ranch house with 60 acres - now all subdivision) did have 3 phase to
begin with, and that the old fuse box and main 3-phase power switch/
fuse box also original - so DIYer I sorta doubt - although 1940's
methodology it is...and it does seem to work....thanks again for input
taber...@mypacks.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually Gordon - you are right - the color coding on the 3 phase fuse
box matches nothing I can find...and don't know what the three phase
was for before me (except possibly for a huge 3 phase motor
disonnected motor dragged out of the attic driving a giant defunct
squirrel fan). So a DIYer may have made conections (to the fan) after
ranch house was built. I have also tried to follow (another route of )
the three phase lines as they enter the floor to crawlspace - but they
go into an area of crawlspace that is entirely impossible to get to
due to an interior beam that blocks all access..all that is above that
blocked area is kitchen..Anyhow...didn't mean to doubt you...I have no
idea what happened in the past here except that it was the oringinal
ranch house that owned the entire area around me...and very elderly
people had it for a decade before me (so say neighbors) ...then it
sat abandoned for at least a year before I got it...
Gordon
@c22g2000prc.googlegroups.com:
> this house came with no grounding rods (built 1949) and
> now that I see through example see how important a good ground and
> neutral connections are - I fully intent to very soon repalce that
> clamp to copper pipe - although I have read/been told that around here
> they don't like a ground to water pipes - I am still going do it..
>
Grounding to a water pipe used to be fairly common. After all,
it was a metal tube (ususlly copper) that ran out of the structure
and then underground for quite some length. The problem came
when plastic pipe was introduced. Imagine what would happen
to your grounding if a length of plastic pipe were inserted
into the pipe run between the ground conection and the point
where the pipe exited the building.
Or, more likely, the pipe from the street was replaced with plastic.
That's what happens when the original pipe leaks and needs
to be replaced.
taber...@mypacks.net
> tabers7...@mypacks.net wrote in news:e0c02c45-aa74-4746-a741-74c123fb5955
Yes I do see the problem with using water pipes for sole ground..as in
my case with a bad nuetral for long time - the water pipes worked well
enough as a nuetral to keep things 'going'...- just waiting for the
right pipe to be cut...or perhaps a water meter being changed...
Gordon
news:e89d5093-15b3-4e69...@n1g2000prb.googlegroups.com:
Oh yea, Water meters. They used to be made of bronze. AFAIK
Neptune still maked Bronze body meters. But many are
made of plastic. That breakes the ground connection.
I seem to recall that in my parents house, there was a wire
jumper around the water meter. That is, a wire connected
to the pipes on either side of the water meter that would
maintain the ground if the meter was removed.
David Williams
-> Neptune still maked Bronze body meters. But many are
-> made of plastic. That breakes the ground connection.
-> I seem to recall that in my parents house, there was a wire
-> jumper around the water meter. That is, a wire connected
-> to the pipes on either side of the water meter that would
-> maintain the ground if the meter was removed.
Around here, water meters have to be located well inside the house to
avoid freezing in winter. An electric device allows the meter-reader to
read the meter from outdoors. There's a considerable length of pipe
between the meter and the point where the pipe comes into the house.
Normally, grounding is done to that.
dow
Pete C.
Those jumpers are generally required. Water company folks have been
badly shocked or worse trying to change a meter that has an unknown
ground fault current flowing across it.