The nasty review of Bears' Guide in Amazon
John Bear
been writing nasty letters about me for at least 20 years.
Such is life. It keeps him off the street, I guess.
For a wonderful look at how the Amazon unmonitored Reviews section can be
magnificently abused, see
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0449148165/002-4416912-0577267
John "Turn the Other Chic" Bear
--
John Bear, Ph.D. (Michigan State University, 1966)
Co-Author, Bears' Guide (13th edition at http://www.degree.net)
Laura Campos
Out of curiousity, how have you dealt with DL
discrimination, or any of your readers have? Is
this covered in your latest book? That was my
concern with that review, that that mentality could
spread and stop universities and colleges from
offering DL degrees because of discrimination
issues. Or could this issue be discussed in Charles
D. Hayes' book *Proving You're Qualified*?
Laura M. Campos
DR_WETSCH
More and more schools are adopting DL programs. Based on the reviwer
not hiring people with these degrees he may soon find himself without
any job candidates. If someones earns their degree by the University of
Maryland or Syracuse U. nontraditionally and applied to the reviewers
company the guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference how the degree
was earned.
John R. Wetsch, Ph.D.
Brad DeMoranville
> I am not Dr. Bear, but I am going to put my two cents in --
>
> More and more schools are adopting DL programs. Based on the reviwer
> not hiring people with these degrees he may soon find himself without
> any job candidates. If someones earns their degree by the University of
> Maryland or Syracuse U. nontraditionally and applied to the reviewers
> company the guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference how the degree
> was earned.
Plus the original reviewer (Vasco DaGama or whatever his name was) sounds
like a bit of a close-minded bigot anyhow. If he accepts that more and more
schools are offering DL programs and more and more of the programs are
worthwhile and legitimate, then he might have to start thinking, and risk
abandoning the comfortable, easy ideas he's lived with so long. Heaven
forbid.
Brad
Ellis M. Zsoldos Jr.
DR_WETSCH <DR_W...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:36E5CF...@prodigy.net...
>I am not Dr. Bear, but I am going to put my two cents in --
>
>More and more schools are adopting DL programs. Based on the reviwer
>not hiring people with these degrees he may soon find himself without
>any job candidates. If someones earns their degree by the University of
>Maryland or Syracuse U. nontraditionally and applied to the reviewers
>company the guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference how the degree
>was earned.
>
The other problem that I had with his review is this:
If a student earns his B.S. at Regents College, yet did his course work the
traditional way at NJIT, Georgia Tech, RPI and let's throw in Princeton for
good measure he would still think this guy had an inferior degree to a
person who from William Patterson College?
He needs to get his head out of the sand.
Some1
> More and more schools are adopting DL
> programs. Based on the reviwer not
> hiring people with these degrees he may
> soon find himself without any job
> candidates.
He might also find himself out of a job.
I get the impression that a lot of the growth in DL is being promoted by
employers themselves. Many employers publicize DL opportunities to their
staff, and reimburse them for taking advantage of them.
There is an entire area of DL that we rarely discuss on this group, the
courses offered on-site at participating corporations. Some with live
instructors, some by interactive video and satellite. Obviously those
programs are approved by employers, or they wouldn't exist.
And now, as in the case of Stanford's BSEE, some of these on-site
programs are going on-line. I'm sure that this is happening with the
blessing of their corporate and government clients. In Stanford's case,
employers as prominent as HP, NASA, Cisco and Intel.
So if Mr. Vaso Bovine really is in a position to make hiring decisions,
and if he really does throw out all resumes from what he perceives are
DL programs... I wonder what his employer's reaction would be if they
found out? I suspect that Mr. Bovine might find himself canned....
Bill Dayson
Pete
Vaso does consider the programs (SU's BSEE) you mention legitimate.
His beefs, I believe, are with portfolio assessments, taking exams
exclusively, and accumulating credits via traditional means a la
Regents, TESC, Charter Oak, etc.
Here's an email exchange I had with him this weekend in which he
blasted me, my Regents BS, Dr. Bear, purports that I got my job on
false pretenses and that my Ivy league colleagues are 'laughing behind
my back'! I know, I shouldn't have bothered, but I couldn't resist.
It was a one-for-one exchange and I didn't bother responding to his
tirade.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message text written by Pete
>Vaso Bovan, Say you happened to see MY resume on your desk. I have a B.S.
with a concentration in mathematics from Regents College in Albany,
NY.<
No you don't. Regent College offers no courses. It merely "evaluates"
work
done elsewhere. The entire business is a scam. You have a worthless
piece
of paper, except that some employers may confuse Regents College
(University of the State of New York) with the State University of New
York, and thereby offer you a job under false pretenses..
>Regents College is accredited by the same agency that accredits Cornell,
Columbia, Cooper Union and every other school in the Middle Atlantic
States. This is
not to say that RC is of the same academic caliber, but it did not
receive
marginal accreditation.<
It is no-where near the same caliber. In fact Regent College has no
school,
no classes. no nothing. "Accreditation" in this case merely means the
burser won't run away to Rio with your money. That's all.
>I've only paged through Dr. Bear's book but, know he regards Regents
College and its peers highly.<
Yes, I know,. This is what makes Bear's book so humorous.
>Perhaps it was the means by which I amassed my credits (140+). I left
college and spent 9 years in the Navy. Regents College allowed me the
opportunity to bring together courses taken during a time period when
I
moved frequently and was at sea for months at a stretch. I took an
Economics course from a video professor while underway on a submarine.
I
then had two years of military electronics training (classroom and
lab)
evaluated for college credit (~40 semester hours).I finally finished
my BS
with math and computer science courses taken evenings (and via
Internet)
and then as a full-time day student (while working full-time at my
Navy job
in Boston) at UMass.<
Unfortunately, you equate getting a university education with
accumulating
credits. The two are only marginally connected. Clearly you haven't
got a
clue about what real education is all about.
>It’s difficult and sometimes impossible for military personnel who travel
and have families to complete a college’s 2 year/60 credit residence
requirement. There are many opportunities for officers to earn
traditional
graduate degrees, but few for enlisted people to complete an
associate or a bachelor degree.<
There is Grantham College of Engineering www.grantham.edu - One of the
few
legitimate degree-granting correspondence schools.
>Regents College provides a means for active duty military enlisted and
other working adults to receive the credential they put off or did not
have
the opportunity
earn early in life.<
Regents College merely provides non-degreed adults the opportunity to
fool
themselves and prospective employers.
>My Regents College math degree afforded me the opportunity to transition
from the hard life of a submarine sailor to become an analyst at
highly
regarded software company.<
Congratulations, you either fooled your employer or they were
desperate to
hire someone, anyone. I'll bet you don't do the real tough stuff
requiring
a degree in computer science.
>I work side- by-side with people who graduated from top universities (MIT,
Harvard, et al) and they are no more intellectually gifted than some
of the
bright people I had the privilege to work with in the Navy, nor do
they
possess the impressive work ethic.<
True. A university degree does not guarantee a good work ethic.
Unfortunately, I think your Ivy-league "colleagues" probably laugh at
you
behind your back.
>But alas, if my resume or those of any of my former shipmates' had the
misfortune to cross your desk, I suppose you'd only find us qualified
to
sort your mail and sweep your floors<
Actually, I do hire ex-service peoiple to do highly technical work -
after
they've gone to a legitimate school and earned a legitimate degree and
obtained appropriate "Certification" by examination. If you really
want to
test how close your "credits" are to real knowledge, I challenge you
to
write the Mathematics or Computer Science GRE, or your state's
Engineering
License examinations. I bet you'll be so embarrassed and in over your
head
that you'll walk out of the examination.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but you've been completely bamboozled by
this
Regents College. Ultimately, you're only fooling yourself. I recommend
you
go back to school and earn a real degree.
-Vaso
Ellis M. Zsoldos Jr.
A DETC accredited school is ok with this guy, but an RA school is not.
Strange to say the least.
gregory J. Jungwirth
Is "Vaso" short for vaso-line???? Who did you lubricate your life away
to all these years?
greg,
a proud regents and tesc grad!
who has past state and federal licenses and certifications--
BTW, which fail to do what they are supposed to do.
P.S. What degree(s) do you hold and from what source(s)???
You have little wisdom, for a wise-ass.
Carl Franklin
John Bear wrote in message ...
>The gentleman who wrote the nasty review of Bears' Guide in Amazon has
>been writing nasty letters about me for at least 20 years.
>
>Such is life. It keeps him off the street, I guess.
>
I also recently had a hooligan write some nasty remarks about me at Amazon.
My schmuck also struck Barnes and Noble's site. Fortunately, both book
sellers took the defamatory statements off their site. Surprisingly, the
ranking on one of my books jumped 200,000 spots after these folks reviewed
the "review" posted there.
Anyway, I know how easy it is to have this type of stuff posted about you.
Makes you feel helpless to see someone write such things and then virtually
get away with it.
Carl Franklin
ca...@dustdevil.com
http://www.dustdevil.com/ppl/carlf
Carl Franklin
lew...@wichita.infi.net
time and on-campus. Generally, the quality of the program is important and
not the method of program delivery. Is the Heriot-Watt MBA student in
Scotland "legitimate" but the Heriot-Watt student in the United States not
(for those unfamilier, it is the same program). However he does bring up the
unfortunate truth that there are "relatively" few quality distance programs.
Many are from "marginally accredited" institutions. It is unfortunate.
In article <36E6608A...@fmr.com>,
Brad DeMoranville <brad.dem...@fmr.com> wrote:
> DR_WETSCH wrote:
>
> > I am not Dr. Bear, but I am going to put my two cents in --
> >
> > More and more schools are adopting DL programs. Based on the reviwer
> > not hiring people with these degrees he may soon find himself without
> > any job candidates. If someones earns their degree by the University of
> > Maryland or Syracuse U. nontraditionally and applied to the reviewers
> > company the guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference how the degree
> > was earned.
>
> Plus the original reviewer (Vasco DaGama or whatever his name was) sounds
> like a bit of a close-minded bigot anyhow. If he accepts that more and more
> schools are offering DL programs and more and more of the programs are
> worthwhile and legitimate, then he might have to start thinking, and risk
> abandoning the comfortable, easy ideas he's lived with so long. Heaven
> forbid.
>
> Brad
>
> > John R. Wetsch, Ph.D.
> >
> > Laura Campos wrote:
> > >
> > > Mr. Bear,
> > >
> > > Out of curiousity, how have you dealt with DL
> > > discrimination, or any of your readers have? Is
> > > this covered in your latest book? That was my
> > > concern with that review, that that mentality could
> > > spread and stop universities and colleges from
> > > offering DL degrees because of discrimination
> > > issues. Or could this issue be discussed in Charles
> > > D. Hayes' book *Proving You're Qualified*?
> > >
> > > Laura M. Campos
> > >
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Larry McQueary
definition of "thinking *inside* the box", and Vaso Bovan's picture will sit
next to it.
I hope he gets what he deserves.
Meanwhile, he thinks Grantham, which recently relocated to a different state for
unknown reasons, is just peachy. What exactly are his criteria? Sheesh.
Larry
-a fellow NAVET
Pete <"pete[NO]"@[SPAM]ironwell.com> wrote in message
<36e8ffc8...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
Larry McQueary
print, but there seems to be plenty of "review" space left.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070067015/qid%3D921115323/002-3972305-23
29041
Oh my, and look, it seems someone has reviewed his book and doesn't like it!
<innocent look>
Larry
Pete <"pete[NO]"@[SPAM]ironwell.com> wrote in message
<36e8ffc8...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
Larry McQueary
more) funny. Sing me a Loveaby has some great ones.
Larry
-Who wonders what keeps the tent wher it is. Is it the psychic ferns, Uncle
Roy, or simply Jeffy's hypnotic hair?
John Bear wrote in message ...
>The gentleman who wrote the nasty review of Bears' Guide in Amazon has
>been writing nasty letters about me for at least 20 years.
>
>Such is life. It keeps him off the street, I guess.
>
Gerry Ashton
Mr. Vaso refers to):> few legitimate degree-granting correspondence schools....
>
> ...If you really want to
> test how close your [Regents College] "credits" are to real
> knowledge, I challenge you to
> write the Mathematics or Computer Science GRE, or your state's
> Engineering License examinations. I bet you'll be so embarrassed and
> in over your head that you'll walk out of the examination.
I think it's fascinating that as of 1998, Regents College holds not
only regional accreditation, but accreditation by the Technology
Accreditation Commission of the Accreditation Board for Engineering
and Technology, while Grantham College holds neither (but is
accredited by DETC). I don't have any first hand knowledge of either
college, and cannot say which would really provide a better education,
and that would vary from student to student anyway. But having successfully
applied for engineering licensure in two states, I'm convinced that
it would be much easier for the Regents College graduate to be allowed
to sit for the exam, because Regents now has the kind of accreditation
that the state engineering boards ask for.
However, there are some states that require a degree accredited by
the Engineering Accreditation Commission of ABET; for these states,
neither the Grantham nor the Regents degree will do.
Gerry Ashton
Brad DeMoranville
> I do not accept his premise that the only "legitimate" training occurs full-
> time and on-campus. Generally, the quality of the program is important and
> not the method of program delivery. Is the Heriot-Watt MBA student in
> Scotland "legitimate" but the Heriot-Watt student in the United States not
> (for those unfamilier, it is the same program). However he does bring up the
> unfortunate truth that there are "relatively" few quality distance programs.
> Many are from "marginally accredited" institutions. It is unfortunate.
Right. Now, is this problem -- and its unfortunate resulting perception** --
unique to the U.S.? My understanding is that open universities overseas,
particularly British Open University, are highly respected in their own lands.
Anyone?
Brad
**My Distance Ed textbook refers to this perception as "The Cuckoo Complex," from
a quote that says a cuckoo is a nightingale taught to sing through distance
education.
Brad DeMoranville
> Hello All,
>
> Vaso does consider the programs (SU's BSEE) you mention legitimate.
> His beefs, I believe, are with portfolio assessments, taking exams
> exclusively, and accumulating credits via traditional means a la
> Regents, TESC, Charter Oak, etc.
>
> Here's an email exchange I had with him this weekend in which he
> blasted me, my Regents BS, Dr. Bear, purports that I got my job on
> false pretenses and that my Ivy league colleagues are 'laughing behind
> my back'!
[snip utterly absurd tirade]
Well, Vasco sure is sure of himself -- as were the people in the mid-seventies
who decried those awful Japanese cars and TVs. And those "glorified apartments"
called condominiums, who would buy one of those? And in the sixties when those
horrible Beatles had the nerve to call themselves songwriters. And in the 80s
when people started buying computers for their homes -- what were they
thinking? And in the early 90s, when a high-level software manager at the
company where I worked said, "this Internet will never have a legitimate
business purpose."
All of those people were as sure of their half-assed opinions about change as
old (and I do presume he's old) Vasco.
Brad
Larry McQueary
probably only in his mid-forties. Far too young to be so closed-minded.
Brad D. said:
[ snip ]
Some1
> However he does bring up the
> unfortunate truth that there are
> "relatively" few quality distance
> programs. Many are from "marginally
> accredited" institutions. It is unfortunate.
What *is* a "marginally accredited" institution? Those accredited by
DETC? Most DL programs aren't accredited by DETC. Schools that have been
placed on probation by their regional accreditor? Do *any* RA DL
programs fall in that category?
As far as I know, accreditation doesn't come in grades. A school is
accredited or it isn't.
So I guess the phrase "marginally accredited" is just a metaphorical way
of making the first point: "... there are relatively few quality
distance programs."
That's a pretty sweeping indictment. Also pretty subjective, I'd guess.
Lets go to Bear's Guide 13th, and start from the top in the chapter
entitled 'Accredited Schools with Degrees Entirely by Distance
Education'. I'll only discuss regionally accredited US schools because
I'm pretty ignorant about schools in places like Turkey.
1. Allegheny U., a USNews second tier "national university". Academic
reputation of 169 out of 229. Probably hurt by the fact that it is a
medical specialty school, and little known outside the health field.
2. Arizona State University, USNews gives it an academic reputation rank
of 65th out of 229 "national universities". However it only falls in the
third tier.
This points up a critical point for those taking the USNews "tiers"
system seriously. The big reason that Arizona State falls to the third
tier is that only 45% of the freshmen it admits ultimately earn degrees.
(By comparison, Stanford has a 93% yield.)
Lets look at two schools with good academic reputations. One has highly
selective admissions, then rarely flunks anyone out, giving a high
"yield". Both these factors win approval from USNews, and move it *up*
in the tiers. The other school has a more open admissions policy, but
presents students with a demanding program and flunks out those that
can't cut it. The students that ultimately graduate are comparable to
those of the first school, but both the lower admissions standards and
the higher failure rate are frowned on by USNews, and the school moves
*down* in the tiers.
It is a matter of opinion which philosophy is superior. But to claim
that an Arizona State grad has a "marginally accredited" degree will
need a *lot* of argument...
3. Baker College. A specialty business school. Unranked by USNews.
4. Ball State University. Academic reputation 169th out of 229 "national
universities" Fourth tier, 58% yield. Ball State is a lower-average
school academically. It suffers in 'academic reputation' rankings
because it is classified as a "national university" (as a result of its
offering several doctoral programs), while not really being a research
university. So lots of academics have never heard of it. Academics tend
to look at the world from the vantage point of their own discipline.
Schools only offering doctorates in a few fields are at a disadvantage
unless they are winning Nobel prizes in those fields. I'm willing to bet
that Ball State would move up dramatically if it were reclassified as a
"regional" university, and not evaluated on the basis of its granting
doctorates.
5. Bellevue U. fourth tier "Midwestern regional university", 112th out
of 122.
6. Bemedji State U. third tier "Midwestern regional". 47th out of 122.
Hurt by 35% yield (see Arizona State comments)
7. Boise State U. third tier "Western regional" 20th out of 112 in
academic reputation. Hurt badly by a 22% yield.
8. California State University- Chico, second tier "Western regional",
45th out of 112.
9. California State University- Dominguez Hills, third tier "Western
regional", academic reputation of 69th out of 112. Hurt badly by a 22%
yield. CSUDH's academic reputation is hurt by demographics. Put bluntly,
it has an abnormally large percentage of black and Hispanic students due
to its south central LA location. Test scores and grades are lower than
average. Many freshmen are not well prepared for college and flunk out.
The fact that CSUDH manages a low-average academic reputation rank is
probably due to the fact that its facilities are comparable to other CSU
campuses, and the fact that its faculty meet the same system-wide hiring
qualifications. Probably the main effect of the lower than average
academic reputation ranking for a DL student is its effect on "degree
snobs". Otherwise, it's basically a CSU standard education.
10. California State University- Fresno. First tier "Western regional",
37th out of 112.
OK, that's the first ten RA schools in that chapter. What do we see?
Academic reputation percentiles (one minus (rank in class divided by
size of class)): 82, 72, 67, 61, 60, 38, 26, 26, 8
Of the nine RA schools with USNews academic reputation rankings, five
were better than average, and four worse. The mean calculates to be
48.9. So just this tiny sample seems to indicate that the academic
reputation ranking of those schools offering totally DL programs is
average. I see no reason here to consider schools offering DL programs
to be any lower in quality than the average American university.
Now lets look at tiers: 1st tier: 1, 2'd tier: 2, 3'd tier: 4, 4'th
tier: 2. Three fall in the top two USNews tiers. Six in the bottom two.
I believe that this is a result of the fact that DL is being pioneered
by those schools that have already demonstrated, in their admissions
policies, that they have a committment to making access to higher
education more open. Hence, as I've argued, lower admissions standards
and higher failure rates. But with comparable academic reputation
rankings.
Bill Dayson
Laura Campos
*instance* in which he could prove that a
Regents/TESC/Charter Oak, etc. graduate was
incompetent in order to prove his belief that these
institutions are running a "sham." He mentions no
case studies, not even a personal anecdote about an
incompetent; therefore, we can conclude that it's a
perception problem. He wants to believe that it's a
sham, plain and simple.
That's my 2 cents.
Laura
wdh...@my-dejanews.com
"Ellis M. Zsoldos Jr." <ezso...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> DR_WETSCH <DR_W...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:36E5CF...@prodigy.net...
> >
> >More and more schools are adopting DL programs. Based on the reviwer
> >not hiring people with these degrees he may soon find himself without
> >any job candidates. If someones earns their degree by the University of
> >Maryland or Syracuse U. nontraditionally and applied to the reviewers
> >company the guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference how the degree
> >was earned.
> >
>
> The other problem that I had with his review is this:
>
> If a student earns his B.S. at Regents College, yet did his course work the
> traditional way at NJIT, Georgia Tech, RPI and let's throw in Princeton for
> good measure he would still think this guy had an inferior degree to a
> person who from William Patterson College?
>
> He needs to get his head out of the sand.
>
He needs to get his head of WHAT?
Wm. Dennis Huber
http://members.tripod.com/WDHuber/
I reserve the right to publicly disclose private e-mail
received in reply to this post.
wdh...@my-dejanews.com
>
> Pete <"pete[NO]"@[SPAM]ironwell.com> wrote in message
<snipped>
> >
> >True. A university degree does not guarantee a good work ethic.
> >Unfortunately, I think your Ivy-league "colleagues" probably laugh at
> >you
> >behind your back.
That's OK, though, because I laugh at you to your face, Vaso.
Marci...@msn.com
"Larry McQueary" <Termin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> By the way, it seems the Vaso has a book of his own on amazon.com. It's out
of print, but there seems to be plenty of "review" space left.
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070067015/qid%3D921115323/002-
3972305-2329041
>
> Oh my, and look, it seems someone has reviewed his book and doesn't like it!
> <innocent look>
Larry
Hi Larry: The above link didn't work, but I did find it at the following
link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070067015/qid%3D921195039/002-2637253-
6224209
But your review isn't there :-( I was *SO* looking forward to reading it!<G>
Marci...@msn.com
Marci...@msn.com
>
> Bill Dayson
What DOES one call canned bovine?
Larry McQueary
wdh...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <7c9e5f$qcc$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>>
>> Pete <"pete[NO]"@[SPAM]ironwell.com> wrote in message
>
><snipped>
>
>> >
>> >True. A university degree does not guarantee a good work ethic.
>> >Unfortunately, I think your Ivy-league "colleagues" probably laugh at
>> >you
>> >behind your back.
>
>
>
>That's OK, though, because I laugh at you to your face, Vaso.
>
>
>
>Wm. Dennis Huber
>http://members.tripod.com/WDHuber/
>
>I reserve the right to publicly disclose private e-mail
>received in reply to this post.
>
JMcAulay
<lew...@wichita.infi.net> posted, in part
> I do not accept his premise that the only "legitimate" training occurs full-
> time and on-campus. Generally, the quality of the program is important and
> not the method of program delivery. Is the Heriot-Watt MBA student in
> Scotland "legitimate" but the Heriot-Watt student in the United States not
> (for those unfamilier, it is the same program). However he does bring up the
> unfortunate truth that there are "relatively" few quality distance programs.
> Many are from "marginally accredited" institutions. It is unfortunate.
Y'know, there are still two things about this that really grate on me.
One of them is that if there are "relatively" few quality distance
programs, that would be relative to what, and who evaluated them for
quality?
Furthermore, I defy anyone to provide a cogent explanation of just what
the hell "marginally accredited" means. Does somebody think the
regional accrediting teams go around giving scorecards to institutions?
I can hear it now: "Well, don't worry too much, you got your
accreditation. Too bad, though, if anyone looks at your points;
they'll see you only got a 71, which, of course, means you're only
marginally accredited. You ought to drop by next week when we hit
Stanford. Last time, we gave them a 99.3!" Bursar then posts "C"
rating card from WASC in window right next to school cafeteria's
matching "C" card from County Health Department.
Puh-leeeze.
Marginally accredited? 17.
Regards,
John
kregg jorgenson
finding a program for my daughter. My daughter and I found it
informative, interesting, and useful. Today she is in a program in one
of the accredited schools found in the book and it is working out fine.
Thanks John!
Frenchy
Brad DeMoranville wrote in message <36E7BA00...@fmr.com>...
>lew...@wichita.infi.net wrote:
>
>> I do not accept his premise that the only "legitimate" training occurs
full-
>> time and on-campus. Generally, the quality of the program is important
and
>> not the method of program delivery. Is the Heriot-Watt MBA student in
>> Scotland "legitimate" but the Heriot-Watt student in the United States
not
>> (for those unfamilier, it is the same program). However he does bring up
the
>> unfortunate truth that there are "relatively" few quality distance
programs.
>> Many are from "marginally accredited" institutions. It is unfortunate.
>
perception** --
>unique to the U.S.? My understanding is that open universities overseas,
>particularly British Open University, are highly respected in their own
lands.
>Anyone?
>
>Brad
>
>**My Distance Ed textbook refers to this perception as "The Cuckoo
Complex," from
>a quote that says a cuckoo is a nightingale taught to sing through distance
>education.
## In Australia from the web site and from the degree received you would
never be able to tell which degrees are by DE.
For example check out my old University The University of New England who
have 75% of their students in DE/DL mode http://www.une.edu.au and look at
the Education courses - BEd and MEd in particular - and the Commerce -
Master of Economics and Master of Accountancy - then tell me which if any
are DE/DL.
Peter French
Larry McQueary
It should show up in another day or so. Don't get too excited -- it's short and
sweet. I may take some time and do something more creative later. I'm sure
that other NG participants could come up with some rather creative material.
Yes, I'm petty!
Larry
Marci...@msn.com wrote in message <7c9jt8$vhq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <n0FF2.3869$SZ5....@news.rdc1.tx.home.com>,
> "Larry McQueary" <Termin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> By the way, it seems the Vaso has a book of his own on amazon.com. It's out
>of print, but there seems to be plenty of "review" space left.
>> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070067015/qid%3D921115323/002-
>3972305-2329041
>>
>> Oh my, and look, it seems someone has reviewed his book and doesn't like it!
>> <innocent look>
>Larry
>
>Hi Larry: The above link didn't work, but I did find it at the following
>link:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070067015/qid%3D921195039/002-2637253-
>6224209
>
>But your review isn't there :-( I was *SO* looking forward to reading it!<G>
>Marci...@msn.com
>
Bill Gossett
Marci...@msn.com wrote:
> What DOES one call canned bovine?
>
> <G>
>
> Marci...@msn.com
How about Vaso-constriction?
Bill Gossett
lew...@wichita.infi.net
definetly an issue at the graduate level. Lets consider business as an
example. There are probably over 100 distance ed MBA's around the globe yet
the Economist in "Which MBA?" includes (I believe) only 8 distance ed programs
... and only 2 in the US.
In article <2497-36E...@newsd-244.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
gna...@my-dejanews.com
Now, does this persons name "Vaso Bovine" mean "water cow?"
Gnarly
In article <6596-36...@newsd-241.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
user...@webtv.net (Some1) wrote:
> Dr. Wetsch said:
>
> > More and more schools are adopting DL
> > programs. Based on the reviwer not
> > hiring people with these degrees he may
> > soon find himself without any job
> > candidates.
>
> He might also find himself out of a job.
>
> I get the impression that a lot of the growth in DL is being promoted by
> employers themselves. Many employers publicize DL opportunities to their
> staff, and reimburse them for taking advantage of them.
>
> There is an entire area of DL that we rarely discuss on this group, the
> courses offered on-site at participating corporations. Some with live
> instructors, some by interactive video and satellite. Obviously those
> programs are approved by employers, or they wouldn't exist.
>
> And now, as in the case of Stanford's BSEE, some of these on-site
> programs are going on-line. I'm sure that this is happening with the
> blessing of their corporate and government clients. In Stanford's case,
> employers as prominent as HP, NASA, Cisco and Intel.
>
> So if Mr. Vaso Bovine really is in a position to make hiring decisions,
> and if he really does throw out all resumes from what he perceives are
> DL programs... I wonder what his employer's reaction would be if they
> found out? I suspect that Mr. Bovine might find himself canned....
>
> Bill Dayson
>
>
Gnarly
gna...@my-dejanews.com
"Larry McQueary" <Termin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
of
> print, but there seems to be plenty of "review" space left.
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070067015/qid%3D921115323/002-3972305-23
> 29041
>
> Oh my, and look, it seems someone has reviewed his book and doesn't like it!
> <innocent look>
>
> Larry
>
So Heidy Ho DE folks,
Any way Vaso would dare to identify the firm he works for, and the name of his
supervisor, who I am sure must approve of his methods?
DR_WETSCH
>
> Actually, I do hire ex-service peoiple to do highly technical work -
> after
> they've gone to a legitimate school and earned a legitimate degree and
> obtained appropriate "Certification" by examination. If you really
> want to
> test how close your "credits" are to real knowledge, I challenge you
> to
> write the Mathematics or Computer Science GRE, or your state's
> Engineering
> License examinations. I bet you'll be so embarrassed and in over your
> head
> that you'll walk out of the examination.
>
A lasso on Vaso for this comment too. Regents College also gives credit
for students who pass the GRE subject exams in these areas. The
fundamental premise behind Regents is that it assesses College level
learning, its not where you learned it but more importantly that you
know it. This guy is a laugh as there is no logic to his statements.
I haven't seen this much entertainment on the newgroup for quite some
time.
I was interesting to see that Vaso posted here but he obviously doesn't
want to stick around to defend his meaningless comments.
An idea, let's just port our comments here over to the review section
on Amazon whereby we can review Vaso's comments and give Dr. Bear 5
stars in return.
John R. Wetsch, Ph.D.
Pete
He has done recruiting of electronic technicians from Devry and MBA's
from CalPoly. Not quite the elitist he pretends to be when bashing
nontraditional education offerings.
Pete
On Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:21:25 GMT, gna...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>In article <n0FF2.3869$SZ5....@news.rdc1.tx.home.com>,
> "Larry McQueary" <Termin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> By the way, it seems the Vaso has a book of his own on amazon.com. It's out
>of
>> print, but there seems to be plenty of "review" space left.
>>
>>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070067015/qid%3D921115323/002-3972305-23
>> 29041
>>
>> Oh my, and look, it seems someone has reviewed his book and doesn't like it!
>> <innocent look>
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
>
Chip
> However he does bring up the
> unfortunate truth that there are "relatively" few quality distance
programs.
> Many are from "marginally accredited" institutions. It is unfortunate.
Think about this for a moment from a statistical perspective. Look at all of
the regionally accredited colleges and universities in the country, and look
at the admission selectivity of them. A community college in a rural
location where entering students aren't rigorously prepared *must* cater to
its students, or few will pass. Therefore, these schools, compared to Ivys
or to top-tier schools, aren't terribly rigorous academically.
Are they "marginally accredited" because of this? I doubt it.
Until there are so many DL students that DL schools can be as selective as
Ivys, there will be some of the same issues in that arena.
It would be interesting to see, for example, a statistical analysis of, say,
SAT/ACT scores, high school GPAs, etc and to extrapolate from that the
academic rigor of each individual RA school. My guess is that the standard
deviation would be huge. Although SAT/ACT and high school GPA wouldn't be a
good measure of academic rigor for DL schools, maybe a comparison of GREs
between DL and regular programs would provide a meaningful comparison.
My guess is that, all said and done, when one adjusts for the smaller sample
size of DL programs, one would probably find students in all parts of the
strata... and, since DL offers the motivated student the opportunity to
learn and do more than the typical campus-based program, I think the entire
argument about "marginal accreditation", at least as it relates to academic
rigor, would be hard to maintain.
Martin Spillane
>
My understanding is that open universities overseas,
>particularly British Open University, are highly respected in their own
lands. Anyone?
The British Open University is indeed highly respected, although I have
never worked out quite why. From the beginning it set out to operate as
if it was traditional campus-based university and as a result the
interests of the adult DL student have been sacrificed to rigidity. In
commercialterms it is essentially a state version of the University of
Phoenix, with a massive mail-order educational publishing business on the
side.
It does hold summer schools on the campuses of other universities, which
could align it with Brads perception of a cuckoo! In the UK it also has a
large network of regional advisers who offer face to face interviews and
evening seminars, so that it is not as strictly DL as some programs.
It is very rigid in its requirments, and has been said to be institution-
centered rather than student-centered. Thus oportunities for credit
transfer are limited, although this is said to be improving, in line with
the moves to Credit Accumulation and Transfer schemes elsewhere in the UK.
The research I conducted in 1993/94 indicated that some people in the UK
who have done well with US DL colleges, have often have totally disregarded
the OU or have only tried the US programs after failing to get to grips
with the somewhat bureaucratic style of the OU
Conversely, some people who have attempted to negotiate with an American
college, but have failed to grasp the way the American system works, have
later succeeded with the OU.
It appears that the American system and the OU require different
approaches, a subject which is ripe for research. The administrative path
through the American system seemingly requires the potential student to
have flexibility of mind and an innovative approach, whereas the
administrative path through the OU requires a more bureacratic frame
of mind. To those enmeshed in the two educational systems, this may
seem like an over generalistion, in which case I suggest they try the other
system and see for themselves.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Spillane Spil...@facstaff.wisc.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some1
> Think about this for a moment from a
> statistical perspective. Look at all of the
> regionally accredited colleges and
> universities in the country, and look at
> the admission selectivity of them. A
> community college in a rural location
> where entering students aren't
> rigorously prepared *must* cater to its
> students, or few will pass. Therefore,
> these schools, compared to Ivys or to
> top-tier schools, aren't terribly rigorous
> academically.
I think that Chip might be ignoring the fact that many of the less
selective schools have much higher failure rates than the more selective
schools.
For example, 95% of the freshmen that Yale admits ultimately graduate.
90% for Emory, 90% for Georgetown, and so on.
Compare that to 37% at San Jose State, 29% at CCNY, or 22% at Cal State
Dominguez Hills.
Chip suggests that less selective schools must water down their
curricula in order for their students to pass. Fact is, the statistics
show that most *don't* pass: they either fail or drop out.
I'm suggesting that the gap in 'academic rigor' between "top tier", and
"lower tier" schools is smaller than often assumed. For example, I think
that an introductory calculus course will use the same texts, cover
approximately the same topics, and have roughly comparable problem sets
and tests, at both the more selective and less selective schools. But
fewer students at the less selective school will take calculus at all,
and fewer of those that do will be able to pass it.
> It would be interesting to see, for
> example, a statistical analysis of, say,
> SAT/ACT scores, high school GPAs, etc
> and to extrapolate from that the
> academic rigor of each individual RA
> school.
That's my point. I don't think that you *can* extrapolate "academic
rigor" from SATs and high school GPAs. Those numbers *do* tell you about
the preparation, and perhaps the motivation, of your freshmen. But high
school grades and SATs don't speak to what the school will require of a
student in order to graduate.
> Although SAT/ACT and high school
> GPA wouldn't be a good measure of
> academic rigor for DL schools, maybe a
> comparison of GREs between DL and
> regular programs would provide a
> meaningful comparison.
I think that a comparison of GREs between graduates of all sorts of
schools would be interesting. In order to truly gauge the academic
quality of a school, you need to examine its graduates, not its
freshmen.
> I think the entire argument about
> "marginal accreditation", at least as it
> relates to academic rigor, would be hard
> to maintain.
The superiority of the top tier schools is equated with their initial
selectivity. As long as this perception exists, it will be natural to
equate any attempt to open up the higher education process as being a
reduction in standards, simply by definition.
So distance education is inherently suspect because it has been
pioneered by those institutions with an institutional commitment to
providing wider access to higher education. It's not an accident that
here in California, the California State University is deeply involved
in DL, while the University of California isn't.
And DL will remain suspect until it either becomes more elitist, or
until DL graduates can demonstrate that they are objectively comparable
to graduates of more prestigious programs.
Bill Dayson
DCY1985
experiences as a law school faculty member and some research & writing I've
done on law school rankings:
1. I don't *necessarily* equate academic prestige with academic rigor. At
some top schools, the tough part is getting in. Once you're in, you're given a
huge benefit of the doubt, by the school and by employers. By contrast, at
some lower tier schools, academic attrition rates may be much higher, and
grades may be less likely to be inflated. Those schools know that their grades
and evaluation of their students have to mean something to prospective
employers.
2. In terms of prestige, I think it's fairly simple: The more one departs
from the model of full-time, residential education, with students being very
selectively admitted on the basis of high grades and test scores, the lower an
institution falls on the prestige scale. A generalization, to be sure, but one
that you can pretty much bank on. Alas, I don't see it radically changing in
the near future, even with the advent of more evening and DL programs.
David Yamada
Associate Professor of Law
Suffolk Univ. Law School
Boston, MA
dya...@acad.suffolk.edu
Some1
> It appears he is the owner of Bovan
> Associates, an engineering firm. He has
> done recruiting of electronic technicians
> from Devry and MBA's from CalPoly.
> Not quite the elitist he pretends to be
> when bashing nontraditional education
> offerings.
I can't comment on Devry other than to say that it may suffer in
prestige due to its trade school beginnings. But as an old Cal Poly
student from the early 70's (I dropped out and became a hippy...), I can
say that recruiting at Cal Poly isn't exactly slumming.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/cat13wo.htm
Top undergraduate engineering
programs nationwide, offered by schools without Ph.D programs.
1 Cooper Union (NY) 3.6
2 Rose-Hulman Inst. of Tech. (IN) 3.5
3 Harvey Mudd College (CA) 3.4
4 Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo 3.3
5 Bucknell University (PA) 3.2
5 Rochester Inst. of Technology (NY) 3.2 5 U. S. Air Force Academy (CO)
3.2
5 U. S. Naval Academy (MD) 3.2
9 Swarthmore College (PA) 3.1
9 U. S. Military Academy (NY) 3.1
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/wstu_pub.htm
Top public universities in the west without extensive Ph.D programs.
1. Cal Poly–San Luis Obispo
2. Western Washington University
3. Humboldt State University (CA)
3. Sonoma State University (CA)
5. California State Univ.–Chico
5. Montana Tech of the Univ. of Mont.
7. University of Nevada–Las Vegas
8. California State Univ.–Fresno
8. California State Univ.–Hayward
Sorry about this bit of chauvinism, but you gotta stand up for your
homies.
Bill Dayson
Chip
>
> I think that Chip might be ignoring the fact that many of the less
> selective schools have much higher failure rates than the more selective
> schools.
>
> For example, 95% of the freshmen that Yale admits ultimately graduate.
> 90% for Emory, 90% for Georgetown, and so on.
>
> Compare that to 37% at San Jose State, 29% at CCNY, or 22% at Cal State
> Dominguez Hills.
This is a very interesting point... and one that I *didn't* consider when I
was writing that post. However, from my limited knowledge in this area, I
think that *retention* of students (a student staying after admission long
enough to graduate) is a completely different issue than students failing
out. A whole lot of students either don't like the school they are in, and
transfer to another one, while (at least at a number of selective liberal
arts schools), students do fine academically, but drop out because they lose
interest in school, or because of financial constraints, or some such.
> Chip suggests that less selective schools must water down their
> curricula in order for their students to pass. Fact is, the statistics
> show that most *don't* pass: they either fail or drop out.
I'm certainly willing to stand corrected on this issue if there is data to
validate that statement; I just haven't seen any... and as I said above, I
don't think dropping out is an accurate measure, because too many
confounding issues are present to isolate academic performance as the sole
criteria.
> I'm suggesting that the gap in 'academic rigor' between "top tier", and
> "lower tier" schools is smaller than often assumed. For example, I think
> that an introductory calculus course will use the same texts, cover
> approximately the same topics, and have roughly comparable problem sets
> and tests, at both the more selective and less selective schools.
I've not found this to be the case. I know that for many courses, Oberlin,
for example, covers material much more rapidly -- and in greater depth --
than does the Lorain County Community College, situated in the same general
area. This is, of course, where the courses are designed to be equivalent.
The result is that more material is covered in a shorter period of time.
This idea is further supported by conversations I've had with people that
have taken conventional classroom-based coursework at a variety of different
schools. I am consistently told that the same student taking a course at
Oberlin will study much harder than, that same student taking an equivalent
course at, say, a typical 4 year state school.
> But
> fewer students at the less selective school will take calculus at all,
> and fewer of those that do will be able to pass it.
I will definitely agree that this will be true in some circumstances; I
still assert, however, that there is no across-the-board uniformity in the
academic rigor between, say, Yale and the University of the District of
COlumbia.
>
> > It would be interesting to see, for
> > example, a statistical analysis of, say,
> > SAT/ACT scores, high school GPAs, etc
> > and to extrapolate from that the
> > academic rigor of each individual RA
> > school.
>
> That's my point. I don't think that you *can* extrapolate "academic
> rigor" from SATs and high school GPAs. Those numbers *do* tell you about
> the preparation, and perhaps the motivation, of your freshmen. But high
> school grades and SATs don't speak to what the school will require of a
> student in order to graduate.
My point was that you could look to these (admittedly far-from-perfect)
predictors of academic performance and preparation, and then measure them
against something like GRE or MAT performance 4 years later at a school
considered "selective" vs one considered "non-selective". The point being
that a selective RA school will *probably* produce students with a deeper
understanding of the subject matter than a non-selective school. Not that
both won't have an equivalent level of *basic* subject matter understanding,
but that the selective (and presumably, very rigorous) school's students
will have more complete understanding.
>
> > Although SAT/ACT and high school
> > GPA wouldn't be a good measure of
> > academic rigor for DL schools, maybe a
> > comparison of GREs between DL and
> > regular programs would provide a
> > meaningful comparison.
>
> I think that a comparison of GREs between graduates of all sorts of
> schools would be interesting. In order to truly gauge the academic
> quality of a school, you need to examine its graduates, not its
> freshmen.
Absolutely. Although using the test scores for freshmen as a baseline
allows (theoretically, at least) a measure of how much the school is
actually affecting the academic outcome, and how much of it the students
already had walking in the door.
>
> > I think the entire argument about
> > "marginal accreditation", at least as it
> > relates to academic rigor, would be hard
> > to maintain.
>
> The superiority of the top tier schools is equated with their initial
> selectivity. As long as this perception exists, it will be natural to
> equate any attempt to open up the higher education process as being a
> reduction in standards, simply by definition.
>
> So distance education is inherently suspect because it has been
> pioneered by those institutions with an institutional commitment to
> providing wider access to higher education. It's not an accident that
> here in California, the California State University is deeply involved
> in DL, while the University of California isn't.
>
> And DL will remain suspect until it either becomes more elitist, or
> until DL graduates can demonstrate that they are objectively comparable
> to graduates of more prestigious programs.
>
> Bill Dayson
I agree that elitism is a bad thing... and one of the really exciting
notions of DL is that theoretically, one can have two students with very
different preparation and capacity for learning taking the same class from
the same instructor, with each being able to take the material in at their
own pace. In that way, DL has the potential to really level the playing
field, eliminating the penalty now suffered by those whose preparatin in
high school wasn't as complete as others.
Jeff
graduate students did well in high school, and graduate students may
not have done outstandingly as undergrads. Some very bright and
capable people can burn out, lose motivation, and in general, fail.
But eventually, they can become motivated and succeed.
Of course, because prior performance is usually a consideration, these
individuals will not get into the best schools. Therefore, a look back
at past performance as the basis for acceptance into a more prestigious
school vs. a lesser one might be the equivalent of a self-fulfiiling
prophecy.
I don't remember offhand precisely what it is, but the correlation
between SAT scores and grades in college is not particularly high.
There can be many reasons for this: Test anxiety, poor preparation for
the test, a bad night's sleep the night before, or on the other end,
burnout, inability to handle the relative freedom or the sheer volume
of work, drugs, alcohol, etc. In my case, having to get up at an
ungodly hour, travel for an hour by train, and then trudge through knee
deep snow to take the SAT didn't help.
My SAT scores were a lot lower than would would be guessed by looking
at my GRE scores and graduate school performance. Reasons include: My
high school teachers made a big deal of warning us that we should not
guess at questions we were not sure of (because of the penallty for
guessing). In fact, guessing when one can eliminate two or more of the
choices will ususally raise scores. We were also given the line by the
ETS people that it was impossible to prepare for the test. But by the
time I got to the GRE, they had changed their tune. I thus knew when
to guess, and I spent a significant amount of time preparing. The
result was that my GRE score was 200 points higher than my SAT score.
So, it is not safe to make assumptions that test scores and high school
grades will accurately predict college performance. However, since
nothing else seems to be better in that regard, it is the best we can
do.
Non-traditional schools (including accredited distance learning
programs) recognize the limitations of tests and often ignore SAT and
GRE scores altogether. While they do look at grades, they generally
limit these to the most recent degree earned (believing that proximate
indicators are better than historical information). Work history and
recommendations also assume importance. Such schools also are more
likely to admit students on a probationary basis rather than reject out
of hand those who appear to be only marginally prepared academically if
they have been successful in other areas of life.
If this slaps the face of tradition, so be it. At least people are
given a chance. That is certainly better than the snobbery that says
"we admit only the best." Besides. how many people get into
prestigious traditional schools because they are a legacy -- mommy or
daddy went there and contributed big bucks. Junior goes, earns a
gentleman's (or lady's) C and joins the family firm.
I am in favor of giving people a chance and even a second chance. If
they can't make it, OK. If they do, great! These days, many colleges
are desperate for new students. One way they will get them is by
employing non-traditional methods and changing admission standards.
What is the point of putting up barriers if resources are not scarce?
Martin Spillane
>I think that Chip might be ignoring the fact that many of the less
>selective schools have much higher failure rates than the more selective
>schools.
>For example, 95% of the freshmen that Yale admits ultimately graduate.
>90% for Emory, 90% for Georgetown, and so on.>
>Compare that to 37% at San Jose State, 29% at CCNY, or 22% at Cal State
>Dominguez Hills.
>
People entering Yale, etc. have a greater incentive to graduate from their
entry institution than do people who enter the second or third tier
colleges. People who do well at the second tier colleges may transfer out
and take their credits to a higher tier college, thus inflating the overall
and already high graduation statistics for that college. A college may
graduate 95% of the entering freshmen, but what proportion of those
graduation entered as freshmen? To get a true picture would require
back-tracking on students transferring in from a lower tier college, and
then giving the ‘starter’ college credit for those who later graduate. If
a student did one yearat a two-year college, a second year at a four year
college and then two years to graduation at a first tier college the on a
four point scale, the first two college would each get a point and the
college of graduation two points. This would probably present a very
different picture to the raw graduation statistics now available.
>I'm suggesting that the gap in 'academic rigor' between "top tier", and
>"lower tier" schools is smaller than often assumed. For example, I think
>that an introductory calculus course will use the same texts, cover
>approximately the same topics, and have roughly comparable problem sets
>and tests, at both the more selective and less selective schools. But
>fewer students at the less selective school will take calculus at all,
>and fewer of those that do will be able to pass it.
This is almost certainly true. The bottom tier colleges will make up the bulk
with semi-vocational courses for students of lesser ability.
[snip]
>
>> I think the entire argument about
>> "marginal accreditation", at least as it
>> relates to academic rigor, would be hard
>> to maintain.
>
>The superiority of the top tier schools is equated with their initial
>selectivity. As long as this perception exists, it will be natural to
>equate any attempt to open up the higher education process as being a
>reduction in standards, simply by definition.
So, by acting as a parasite the upper tier colleges can maintain their
appearance of selectivity whilst later admitting initially lower-graded
students who have blossomed academically at a lower tier institution.
>
>So distance education is inherently suspect because it has been
>pioneered by those institutions with an institutional commitment to
>providing wider access to higher education. It's not an accident that
>here in California, the California State University is deeply involved
>in DL, while the University of California isn't.
Following the parasitic argument, look how many people with DL degrees
are admitted to grad school at the higher tier institutions. Such
admissions may be the result of the personal characteristics of the
candidate, with the DL degree merely confirming graduate status. Thus DL
degrees permit the upper tier colleges to maintain their appearance of
selectivity whilst still admitting students who, for whatever reason, did
not graduate 'coventionally.'
>
>And DL will remain suspect until it either becomes more elitist, or
>until DL graduates can demonstrate that they are objectively comparable
>to graduates of more prestigious programs.
I think it is clear that DL graduates have already done this. It is just
that the statistics are either not available or are distorted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Spillane spil...@facstaff.wisc.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------