Unaccredited Bible College Degree???
SCRITTY1
Thanks for your input!
Jimmy
scri...@aol.com (SCRITTY1) wrote:
> Are there any unaccredited bible colleges out there that are worth a
flip??
>
If you go to http://www.columbiaseminary.org/ you will find a statement
by Dr. John Bear, THE authority on distance education concerning
Columbia Evangelical Seminary. Steve Levicoff, another excellent
authority, although I don't always agree with him, has lists school in
which you might be interested.
Good luck!
--
Jimmy Clifton
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Harvesthills
It depends on your definition of "worth a flip."
If you are wanting an education in biblical studies, christian
education, ministry, etc., for the purpose of pursuing a career in
ministry (pastor, evangelist, para-church organization, etc.), then
yes, there are some solid programs which are not regionally accredited.
However, if you plan to pursue masters or doctoral level studies at a
RA school, teach in a RA school, pursue state licensure of some kind
(e.g., counseling, etc.), then by all means choose a RA school.
Be sure you know how you wish to use the degree, do your research on
the school(s) you are considering, and avoid the mills at all cost.
Regards,
HH
Barry
it comes to Bible Colleges and Seminaries AABC and ATS accreditation
are just as valid, if not even more so, than RA by itself.
If a school has AABC or ATS accreditation RA accrediation isn't going
to add much worth to the degree in the Christian Academic world.
Barry
Lainie Petersen
ministry, with no intentioning of pursuing another degree *or* going into
academia, yes, there are plenty of programs (often based in local churches)
that may be of some benefit. However, many of these programs prepare you for
ordination or ministry only within that church, denomination, or fellowship.
I believe, however, that if you have the time and the money to spend on
education, you should do it right and get a real degree from an accredited
Bible college or seminary.
Lainie
Harvesthills
Barry:
AABC (for Bible Colleges) and ATS (for seminaries) are professional
accrediting agencies, both recognized by the USDoE. Most, if not all,
seminaries which hold ATS accreditation are also RA.
This is not always true with AABC. However, AABC accreditation alone is
certainly a solid stamp of approval. RA is that standard which most
seek to achieve.
The "Christian Academic World" seems to imply that this community
stands juxtaposed to the secular academic world, and this isn't always
the case. While there is certainly a difference in the content of
subject matter, academic worldview, philosophical bent, and sometimes
educational methodology and pedagogy, the objective of achieving
credibility and offering programs which will have broad recognition is
the goal of a large number of Christian orientied institutions.
From what I have experienced, a school which has sought, met the
requirements, and achieved AABC accreditation, would view RA as yet
another level of academic quality, degree recognition, and asset to the
student and institution. Having taught (part-time, 3 1/2 years) at a RA
Bible College, I experienced first hand the perception of RA. The
college at first achieved AABC, and about 5 years later RA, which for
the administration, faculty and staff was a milestone.
There is a segment (unaccredited schools) in which RA would not "add
much worth." Either the school would not be able to achieve RA, or
doesn't desire to do so (for doctrinal reasons, church-state, etc.).
But my perception is, except for the latter, if the unaccredited school
could be given RA, they would accept it without question.
Regards,
HH
Steven King
flip??
>
> Thanks for your input!
Scritty!
You have received valuable input henceforth from the members of AED. You
are in luck---one of the regular members of this newsgroup, Dr. Steven
Levicoff, has his book "Name It and Frame It" available entirely online at
http://levicoff.tripod.com/nifi.htm. This would be an excellent choice to
survey numerous RA and non-accredited Bible college choices. Additionally,
this site gives you a serious "heads up" concerning many degree mills,
ordination mills, and counseling mills.
Additionally, another wonderful source comes to you from Jason Baker (PhD
candidate from Regents): Baker's Guide To Christian Distance Education at
http://www.gospelcom.net/bakersguide/. Jason has authored a book of the
same title and has developed a well categorized site outlining a number of
Christian distance education programs.
Finally, I'm sure that many on this forum agree that the preeminent distance
education scholar, who frequents AED, is Dr. John Bear. Dr. Bear's
experience and expertise in distance education spans decades...and the
numerous books he has authored are certainly evidence of this fact. Stop by
http://www.degree.net and see for yourself. The 14th edition of his best
seller "Bear's Guide to Earning Degrees Nontraditionally" is due to arrive
in the warehouse in a matter of weeks.
The aforementioned sites are great places to do research. Let me give you
some pointers from my experience:
1) Go RA. If you ever want to use your degree outside of your
denomination, or Christian circles in general, you never want to leave a
question in anyone's mind about the validity of your degree. There are far
too many RA options to ever want to choose a non-accredited degree.
2) Diversify. Make sure whatever pathway you choose in pastoral
education/theological training does not typecast you in a particular
educational vein. As others on this forum will point out, and with whom I
will agree, there is nothing wrong with say getting a BA in pastoral
ministries, moving to a Master of Divinity, and then finally polishing it
off with a D Min. This will work for some....but always keep open the idea
to do your graduate or doctoral education in other fields to keep yourself:
1) flexible, 2) employable, and 3) open-minded.
3) If you have no other degree(s), then do some soul searching about an
area in which you could be employed outside of Christian ministry. Years
ago I was given this same advice and thought it would never be applicable in
my endeavors. Time has proven otherwise. IIRC, there is a Christian school
in Nebraska that offers all its graduates dual majors: for instance, if you
desired a degree in pastoral ministries, you work work to obtain a degree in
dental hygiene as well. The neat thing about this school was it melded two
degree plans together beautifully allowing students to complete these
degrees in four years. I only hope that more Christian schools will embrace
this type of plan in the future.
Happy researching and best of luck to you,
Steven King
Steve Levicoff
> Are there any unaccredited bible colleges out there that are worth a flip??
A few. *Very* few. I listed some of them in chapter 10 of my book
"Name It & Frame It" (full-text surfable on my home page), but the list
is now over five years old, and I'm not sure that I would include all of
them today.
As a general rule, almost all schools that advertise in "Pulpit Helps"
are degree mills. However, almost all schools that advertise in the
Fundie publication "Sword of the Lord" are legit (some with
reservations).
The key question, however, is why you would want an unaccredited Bible
college. As John Bear has written about secular bachelor's degrees,
there are so many good accredited programs out there, why go with one
that is unaccredited?
--
,-~~-.___.
/ | ' \
( ) 0
\_/-, ,----'
==== //
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)
/ __/~| / |
=( _____| (_________|
------------------------------
Steve Levicoff
levi...@ix.netcom.com
http://levicoff.tripod.com
------------------------------
Steve Levicoff
> > Are there any unaccredited bible colleges out there that are
> > worth a flip??
> > Thanks for your input!
>
> If you go to http://www.columbiaseminary.org/ you will find a statement
> by Dr. John Bear, THE authority on distance education concerning
> Columbia Evangelical Seminary. Steve Levicoff, another excellent
> authority, although I don't always agree with him, has lists school in
> which you might be interested.
I'm afraid that Jimmy is going off the wall once again, especially when
he puts Columbia Evangelical Seminary and my name together in the same
paragraph.
In my opinion, CES is about as mickey mouse as they get. You'll find it
profiled in my book "NIFI" - in chapter 12, which addresses degree
mills.
Barry
HH,
Do you believe that the Regional Accreditors have more stringent
requirements than AABC? I'm definitely no expert in this area, but from
what I have been told by some who claim to be experts, the AABC
criteria is just as demanding, if not more so.
Thanks,
Barry
Steve Levicoff
> I know the RA schools keep being mentioned on this newsgroup, but when
> it comes to Bible Colleges and Seminaries AABC and ATS accreditation
> are just as valid, if not even more so, than RA by itself.
>
> If a school has AABC or ATS accreditation RA accrediation isn't going
> to add much worth to the degree in the Christian Academic world.
I have to disagree with this one (cordially, since it's Barry).
RA is still the gold standard by which graduate schools determine
whether they will admit students. A person with a strictly-AABC degree
will have some problems getting into a grad program that is RA.
At one time, AABC was an alternative to RA. However, most AABC schools
that were not RA (including Moody Bible Institute and the Philadelphia
College of Bible, two of the best known Bible schools) went the RA route
a few years ago. These days, there are not many AABC schools that are
not also RA.
As for ATS, at one time evangelical schools viewed ATS as heretical.
However, even the schools that resisted ATS for many years (such as the
venerable Dallas Theological Seminary and Biblical Theological Seminary)
added the ATS icing to their cake.
Thus, at both the undergrad and graduate levels, dual accreditation is a
popular trend today.
(Disclosure statement: I have taught at both BTS and the PCB Grad
School, and Moody Press was one of my publishers.)
Steve Levicoff
> AABC accreditation alone is certainly a solid stamp of approval. RA
> is that standard which most seek to achieve . . .
>
> There is a segment (unaccredited schools) in which RA would not "add
> much worth." Either the school would not be able to achieve RA, or
> doesn't desire to do so (for doctrinal reasons, church-state, etc.).
> But my perception is, except for the latter, if the unaccredited school
> could be given RA, they would accept it without question.
Another factor to consider, at least in terms of distance education:
Many schools have a policy that they will accept only RA course credits
in transfer. Thomas Edison State College, one of the largest (and the
one from which I received my own B.A.) will not accept transfer credits
from any AABC-only school. In fact, when I did my B.A., TESC would not
accept transfer credits from the highly respected Moody Bible Institute
(which, to this day, has some of the highest quality external courses
available) because Moody was only accredited by AABC at the time.
(Moody is now RA as well.)
Is AABC legit? Absolutely. But their acceptance in academe on the
whole is limited.
Barry
Steve,
I am speaking from my own personal experience, rather than as a person
that has done extensive research on this issue. I know that my
experience hardly speaks for everyone, let alone, for all educational
institutions.
I think that my statement concerning AABC and ATS accreditation is true
for most evangelicals that are completing their program through
evangelical schools. My undergrad is from Ozark Christian College
(www.occ.edu) which is accredited by AABC. They truly do not want RA
and do not intend on pursuing it. I don't think it is because they
think RA is "the great evil one" or anything along those lines. The
problem is, many of their contributors were very upset when they became
accredited by AABC, thinking that the accreditor would somehow take
control of the school. AABC accreditation met OCC's needs for federal
aid, etc...and they have seen no need to go further, let alone alienate
their donor base. Most of the faculty at OCC have their undergraduate
degrees from there and have gone on to complete graduate work at RA
institutions with no problem.
I enrolled in the M.S. (Communications) program at Southwest Missouri
State University after completing both Bachelor of Biblical Literature
and Bachelor of Theology degrees at OCC. Not once were my degrees from
OCC questioned during the enrollment process even though SWMS is RA.
I know this hardly speaks for every RA university/college but that was
my experience. What I thought was really unusual is that they accepted
me into the Communications program even though I'd never had one
undergrad course in communications!
I ended up dropping the program for several reasons and enrolled in the
RA distance M.A. program at Johnson Bible College (www.jbc.edu). Again,
I had no problems being accepted. I do need to disclose that OCC and
JBC are both schools that mainly train ministers in the Independent
Christian Churches and know each other by reputation. I imagine JBC
would have let me enroll even if OCC wasn't accredited by AABC.
Barry
> --
> ,-~~-.___.
> / | ' \
> ( ) 0
> \_/-, ,----'
> ==== //
> / \-'~; /~~~(O)
> / __/~| / |
> =( _____| (_________|
> ------------------------------
> Steve Levicoff
> levi...@ix.netcom.com
> http://levicoff.tripod.com
> ------------------------------
>
Steve Levicoff
> I'm afraid that Jimmy is going off the wall once again, especially when
> he puts Columbia Evangelical Seminary and my name together in the same
> paragraph.
>
> In my opinion, CES is about as mickey mouse as they get. You'll find it
> profiled in my book "NIFI" - in chapter 12, which addresses degree
> mills.
Speaking of Columbia Evangelical Seminary, there is a web site focusing
on Mormon apologetics that published several photos of CES a while back,
and they're a hoot. The web page with the commentary is:
http://www.shields-research.org/Novak/CES/ces.htm
Unfortunately, the photos have been dropped from the page, but the
commentary is revealing: "Finally, the front door to the Seminary. The
sign reads, 'There is no cash in this office. This is the administrative
office of a school and we do not sell products nor deal with purchases
or sales.' Behind that door lies James White's Masters Thesis. The
Columbia Evangelical Seminary consists of two offices: that of Rick
Walston and that of his receptionist, Walston's sister. The operation
consists of two PCs, one shredder, one copy machine and numerous file
cabinets. I counted some fifteen theses and dissertations on the shelf."
Fortunately, the photos are still available, although not embedded into
the page itself. To see them, just drop the last section of the URL and
click on the JPG files. You can go directly to the directory that
contains the photos at:
http://www.shields-research.org/Novak/CES/
Keep in mind that CES purports to grant degrees through the doctoral
level. Unlike many degree mills, they do not operate out of the
founder's home (or at least did not do so when the page was published).
Nonetheless, in terms of CES being a degree mill, the photos are a great
example of Res Ipsa Loquitor - the thing speaks for itself.
Harvesthills
> Do you believe that the Regional Accreditors have more stringent
> requirements than AABC? I'm definitely no expert in this area, but
from
> what I have been told by some who claim to be experts, the AABC
> criteria is just as demanding, if not more so.
>
> Thanks,
> Barry
Barry,
AABC is recognized by the USDoE, so I am sure that their criteria for
accreditation is demanding and rigorous. Keep in mind that AABC is not
only USDoE recognized, which would require that schools accredited by
them meet certain academic and institutional criteria. At the same
time, they also have professional guidelines (e.g., meeting certain
criteria relative to Bible courses, programs, etc.), which must be met.
RA, I think would tend to focus more specifically on a school meeting
the criteria set forth by the RA agency (e.g., institutional integrity,
financial credibility, faculty qualification, etc.) as opposed to the
specifics of a professional accrediting emphasis (e.g., Bible, etc.)
So, I don't know that its a matter of being "more strngent," as it is
that each agency (AABC, RA) has a specific objective.
Regards, and a blessed new year!
HH
Harvesthills
> Is AABC legit? Absolutely. But their acceptance in academe on the
> whole is limited.
Steve,
You are correct! Perhaps this has been discussed on the NG before, but
I don't remember. Would a school which has only AABC accreditation
qualify one to receive, e.g., Pell Grants, Student Loans, etc.? Or is
this a benefit only RA, or RA/ATS, schools enjoy? I would think that
since AABC is USDoE recognized, those schools too would qualify.
Regards, and a nice new year!
Bill Dayson
> Are there any unaccredited bible colleges out
> there that are worth a flip??
I think that you probably should rephrase your question after
considering what it is that you want to study, and why.
Do you want to study religion, or a secular subject? If the answer is
the latter, you would definitely be better off at an accredited school.
Do you want to study religion conceived broadly, or take an exclusive
approach to (Judeo-)Christianity specifically? If your interests are in
comparative religion, non-Christian religion, or in the philosophy,
anthropology or psychology of religion, you would be better off not
attending a Bible college. You should consider a regionally accredited
religious studies department (or its foreign equivalent).
If you want to study Christianity specifically, are you interested in
things like early Christianity, Biblical archaeology, church history,
patristics and so on? If so, you probably would be better off in an
accredited religion program that has strengths in those things. A
non-accredited Bible college probably would be a bad choice,
particularly if you contemplate further graduate study.
If you want to study the Bible specifically, do you want to study it
from a confessional perspective that treats it as the revealed word of
God? Or do you want to stand back from it a bit and approach it in (what
I would characterize as) a more scholarly manner? Those interested in a
more objective approach, particularly one that treats the Bible in the
same historical and critical way that Western scholarship treats the
sacred texts of all the other religions, probably should not choose a
Bible college. Probably the religion department at an accredited secular
university would be a better choice.
If you believe that the Bible is God's unique revelation and you wish to
study it exclusively in that light, then you might be Bible college
material. But the questions aren't over.
Do you want to study the Bible simply for your own spiritual growth and
edification? If so, accreditation is largely irrelevant as long as you
think the courses that you are taking are valuable. A non-accredited
Bible college might be a great choice for you if it serves your purpose.
Many Christians find them "worth a flip".
Do you plan to enter the ministry? Then you will need to choose a school
that is accepted by your denomination. Accreditation probably is far
less important than what your church says. (Of course, if the church
insists on accreditation...) So a non-accredited Bible college may or
may not work, depending. My non-expert observation is that they won't
work in the more established denominations that have highly professional
clergy, but they may work great in some of the small fundamentalist
churches. In fact the latter might actually prefer graduates of Bible
colleges that they either run themselves or are acquanted with,
regardless of accreditation. But here the college's specific doctrinal
commitments and the statement of faith they demand of their faculty and
students looms larger than accreditation.
Do you plan to teach the Bible? If so where? If you intend to teach in a
normal academic environment, you will need normal academic credentials.
If you intend to teach informal Bible classes in a church, then your
non-accredited degree may be fine, depending once again on the church.
And if you plan on teaching in a non-accredited Bible college, a
non-accredited Bible college degree may be a fine foot in the door since
many of these schools are tremendously inbred. The faith commitment is a
larger issue than the accreditation of one's degree.
nort...@my-deja.com
to Kansas State (by the military) for his Masters in Marriage and
Family Therapy. He was admitted but told he would need to take extra
undergraduate courses beacause he had an undergraduate degree which was
*not accredited* (ie it had AABC accreditation. This put an even
greater burden on him because of the time frames for completion imposed
by the military.
So, as you say it is legitimate, accredited, and depending on what you
intend to use it for less flexible.
Incidentally, Steve, I noticed that Tennessee Temple University has
become TRACS accredited, following in the foot steps of Temple Baptist
Seminary. I imagine this might give them greater flexibility in
developing graduate programs.
It would be interesting if TRACS were to accredit a doctoral program
besides the DMin. Is this possible within the scope of their mandate?
Would they have to use a non academic sounding title?
North
In article <3A50A962...@ix.netcom.com>,
Jimmy
Jimmy
P.S. I did not mean to imply Steve Levicoff endorsed, spoke favorably,
etc., of Columbia Evangelical Seminary. If that is the way my post
came across I apologize to him. I have tried to be more careful with
my posts.
Jimmy
[In article <13731-3A...@storefull-247.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> larger issue than the accreditation of one's degree.]
>
>
--
Jimmy Clifton
Ken Lewchuk
not speak to some of the excellent foreign alternatives which may provide
excellent programs at reasonable cost. Dr. Bear has chosen not to cover
religious schools. So, you will still need to do some extra research to
find all the available programs and evaluate which ones are right for you.
"Steven King" <s_l...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Uu146.915$wz3....@news2.atl...
Steven King
> not speak to some of the excellent foreign alternatives which may provide
> excellent programs at reasonable cost. Dr. Bear has chosen not to cover
> religious schools. So, you will still need to do some extra research to
> find all the available programs and evaluate which ones are right for you.
As anybody would in anything...
Steven King
Thomas Nixon
Is it possible to get AABC or ATS accreditation without being regionally
accredited? This is definitely not my area of expertise.
Tom
Kevin Stewart
more than for 'professional' use and I wouldn't name them here. (I will say
they aren't the obvious ones, nor have they appeared here, afaik, in any
thread). It's a case of Dr. Bears' caveat -- magnified.
Why the specs?
Kevin
SCRITTY1 wrote in message <20001231211125...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...
Steve Levicoff
> Is it possible to get AABC or ATS accreditation without being regionally
> accredited? This is definitely not my area of expertise.
Yes on both counts. The former is more common than the latter, insofar
as there have been many Bible colleges that were accredited by AABC
before they added regional accreditation, as well as some that are still
only accredited by AABC.
ATS accreditation was resisted by many evangelical schools for many
years, although they later found that they could go for ATS without
having to compromise their doctrinal positions. Once they started going
for ATS, others joined in order to ensure the transferrability of their
credits between schools. A few schools have gone for ATS but not RA,
but this is not as common as the undergrad schools that are "sola AABC."
nort...@my-deja.com
Thomas Nixon <tcn...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Is it possible to get AABC or ATS accreditation without being
regionally
> accredited? This is definitely not my area of expertise.
>
> Tom
Yes. See my previous post in this thread in response to and agreement
with Steve's.
There can be limitations depending on one's goals. Not many if your
track is all sectarian, more if you want to venture out to secular
schools. In the post above I mention a chaplain's experience where the
sole AABC accreditation caused some stress.
North
Chip
Jimmy wrote:
>
> If you go to http://www.columbiaseminary.org/ you will find a statement
> by Dr. John Bear, THE authority on distance education concerning
> Columbia Evangelical Seminary.
I couldn't find any such statement, unless you are referring to Ray
Walston's quotation (somewhat out of context) of the Bears' Guide
section on accreditation.
I couldn't find anything endorsing CES. If I missed it, I'd appreciate
if if you'd give the direct URL to the appropriate page of the site.
Thanks!
Chip
Jimmy
> Walston's quotation (somewhat out of context) of the Bears' Guide
> section on accreditation. I couldn't find anything endorsing CES.
If I missed it, I'd appreciate if if you'd give the direct URL to the
appropriate page of the site.
>
> Thanks!
>
Chip, the URL is http://www.columbiaseminary.org/Recomend.htm
Jimmy
Must be the lead in the paint.
Jimmy