Salem, Oregon, has major gang problems
Larry Caldwell
> The front page of today's Salem Statesman Journal had the banner
> headline of how a regional force will target gangs. It's about time! The
> story says Salem had 36 gang shootings in 1997 and so far Salem has seen
> 45 so far. I still recall when some gangs had a gunfight in the
> Lancaster Mall. The paper says older gang members from larger cities
> (Portland?) are infiltrating the area. It's sort of scary to hear this
With typical Gannett efficiency, the Statesman Urinal is a decade or more
late reporting the news. The Salem school system was colonized by the
gangs in the mid-80's. They actually had a little trouble, and their
first attempt failed. On their second attempt they relocated over 100
families with teenaged children into the area. Each high school got
about 50 gang members apiece.
The whole point of the exercise, of course, is to gain control over the
drug traffic in town. Once the infrastructure is in place, the profit
margin keeps it going.
Medford had a similar colonization in 1995, but I haven't heard how it
came out. Smaller towns with a strong community are tougher to
intimidate.
> stuff. In years past we saw state police, Salem police and Marion County
> police patrolling the farirgrounds. We haven't been back since. We
> figured if the fair needed armed officers patrolling it it wasn't a
> really safe place to be. Salem use to be a sleepy little city where
The gangs pretty much depend on this victim mentality to gain control of
the streets. As long as you huddle in your house in fear, you are not a
problem.
> the streets in Peace. It's odd that "Salem" means peace and the gangs
> have completely taken that away. I wonder what's the answer to the
> growing gang problem in Salem. I know I no longer feel safe in Salem.
> And I don't like feeling that way.
Welcome to prohibition. It's not just a political stance, it's a way of
life.
-- Larry
Keith Clark
When the Feds take over DC (when the police run out of money or strike) crime
drops way down. Why? Simple: the Feds don't BS around and the gangs are scared
of 'em.
Time for an end to political correctness. Deal with crime with an iron fist.
Laurel Halbany
<ClarkPho...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>Time for an end to political correctness. Deal with crime with an iron fist.
Yeah, dump that PC Bill of Rights crap!
Keith Clark
Laurel Halbany wrote:
>
>
> >Time for an end to political correctness. Deal with crime with an iron fist.
>
> Yeah, dump that PC Bill of Rights crap!
Has nothing to do with bill-of-rights. You can be iron fisted and maintain the
rights of law abiding citizens. Why should criminals have more rights and better
protection-under-law than the average "Joe" or "Jane"?
You have to see the difference the Feds (Park Police) make in crime to appreciate
them. Go live near DC for a while.
All you have to do is decide to not accept gang activity. Make gang membership a
crime and eliminate them. Simple. It's not infringing on the constitution to
eliminate the criminal element. Besides if they're gang members they've already
committed crimes to get in the gang. It's not like they can be reformed or have
any redeeming human qualities anyway. Eliminate them. Make it known that such
activity is not and will not be acceptable and use an iron fist.
There is ALWAYS a price to pay for "freedom".
Larry Caldwell
ClarkPho...@spiritone.com says...
> So round up the known gang members and eliminate them.
On what pretext? Gangs aren't illegal, you know. Some of the things
they do may be illegal, but a bunch of kids getting together to hang out
is perfectly legal.
> Time for an end to political correctness. Deal with crime with an iron fist.
I thought that street shootings were the problem. Now you want to get
into the game?
The solution is simple and has been iterated many times. It requires
fewer police, preserves public funds, protects the rights of all
citizens, and would eliminate half the crime in America at one blow.
People have discussed it here at length, so I'm not going to bother.
-- Larry
Darrell Fuhriman
> Has nothing to do with bill-of-rights. You can be iron fisted
> and maintain the rights of law abiding citizens. Why should
> criminals have more rights and better protection-under-law than
> the average "Joe" or "Jane"?
Criminals are the ones in jail, so they in fact, don't have the
same rights. *accused* criminals have *exactly* the same
protections as "Joe". I doubt you'd think so little of those
protections if you were wrongly accused of a crime.
> eliminate the criminal element. Besides if they're gang members
> they've already committed crimes to get in the gang. It's not
> like they can be reformed or have
if they've committed a crime to get in a gang, then prosecute
them for that crime.
> There is ALWAYS a price to pay for "freedom".
Yes, that price is having to put up with a less than perfect
society, including one that might have gangs in it.
Darrell
Laurel Halbany
<ClarkPho...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>Has nothing to do with bill-of-rights. You can be iron fisted and maintain the
>rights of law abiding citizens. Why should criminals have more rights and better
>protection-under-law than the average "Joe" or "Jane"?
They don't. Do you know the difference between a criminal and a person
accused of a crime?
>All you have to do is decide to not accept gang activity. Make gang membership a
>crime and eliminate them. Simple. It's not infringing on the constitution to
>eliminate the criminal element.
Please define a "gang" for legal purposes, then. A conspiracy to
commit illegal acts? Sorry, that's already quite illegal.
>Eliminate them. Make it known that such
>activity is not and will not be acceptable and use an iron fist.
You keep talking about this "iron fist" thing. Could you be more
specific?
Porphyrous
>Laurel Halbany wrote:
>> Yeah, dump that PC Bill of Rights crap!
>[snip]
>All you have to do is decide to not accept gang activity. Make gang
>membership a crime and eliminate them. Simple.
That is the right to free association protected by the 1st Amendment.
>It's not infringing on the constitution to eliminate the criminal element.
It depends on how you define "criminal element". If you mean to
criminalize gang membership and then eliminate that, you can't do it.
>Besides if they're gang members they've already committed crimes to get
>in the gang.
Presumed guilty?
>It's not like they can be reformed or have any redeeming human qualities
>anyway. Eliminate them. Make it known that such
>activity is not and will not be acceptable and use an iron fist.
Yup. Ship them out in cattle cars to the concentration camps.
>There is ALWAYS a price to pay for "freedom".
Your tactics sounds like cannibalism.
You'd put a big dent in gangs if you decriminalized drugs.
--
porphyrous (por' fi Rus) adj. 1. Of or pertaining to the color purple.
David L. Vessell | Tualatin, Oregon | porph...@pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~porphyrous | http://www.teleport.com/~lpo
Fundraising Director | Libertarian Party of Oregon | Blessed Be
Mike Thompson
>
> Keith Clark <ClarkPho...@spiritone.com> writes:
> >It's not like they can be reformed or have any redeeming human qualities
> >anyway. Eliminate them. Make it known that such
> >activity is not and will not be acceptable and use an iron fist.
>
> Yup. Ship them out in cattle cars to the concentration camps.
Geez, Dave, a little early to go to the Nazi card. This is a
Lienhart/Tiernan trick so early in a thread, but certainly beneath you.
Repent.
Mike
______________________________________________
When good men are silent, evil will reign
"So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with
fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot."
------George Orwell
The Thompson of web pages:
http://www.teleport.com/~mthomps/Thompson.htm
See the Barefoot Lizard Page (my brother's band):
http://www.barefootlizard.com
Greg Rose
Keith Clark (ClarkPho...@spiritone.com) wrote:
: Make gang membership a
: crime and eliminate them. Simple.
Not so simple. There's this little thing in the constitution about
freedom of association. You have to prove that the folks who are
associating are engaging in a pattern of criminal activity before you
can label them a gang. Easier to do with the RICO laws, but still
you can't just call anyone you want a gang member and then "eliminate"
(terminate?) them.
: There is ALWAYS a price to pay for "freedom".
Yeah, and the price of living in a free society is that certain freedoms
will always be abused by some people. That's the price we pay.
Simplistic world views are probably the greatest danger our freedom
faces. There's a far greater threat to our freedom from simplistic
answers than from gangs.
--
greg rose
------------------- Yes, this is a .signature -----------------------------
See my web page at http://black.kilchis.com:8080
Updated as of August 25, 1998 with more to come.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Porphyrous
>Porphyrous wrote:
>>
>> Keith Clark <ClarkPho...@spiritone.com> writes:
>
>> >It's not like they can be reformed or have any redeeming human qualities
>> >anyway. Eliminate them. Make it known that such
>> >activity is not and will not be acceptable and use an iron fist.
>>
>> Yup. Ship them out in cattle cars to the concentration camps.
>Geez, Dave, a little early to go to the Nazi card.
Go early and often. It's a Usenet tradition. :-)
>This is a Lienhart/Tiernan trick so early in a thread, but certainly
>beneath you.
Har! Nothing is beneath me! Actually, you're right, but what I felt was
that Mr. Clark's words were sufficiently strongly worded that an emotional
equivalent was in order.
>Repent.
There is no god but Usenet, and or.politics is its prophet.
Neal Feldman
Salem would not know a gang problem if it were introduced formally.
one or two gang incidents a week... maybe 2 gunrelated events in a
month.
ROTFLU!
Try Chicago, New York, LA, SF, or anywhere else like that... Ihave lived
in neighborhoods where a three block area exceeded in a week all of
Salem's crimes (gang and otherwise) for a YEAR.
I guess things are relative though... but I find itso amusing to see
them scared of gangs with a membership of 10 or less when I knew of
gangswith memberships of over 50,000!
<shakes head slowly>
--
Neal Feldman "Defend the United States Constitution"
Salem, Oregon "Defeat the Religious Reich!"
than...@sprintmail.com
Mike Thompson
>
> Mike Thompson <mth...@teleport.com> writes:
>
> >Porphyrous wrote:
> >>
> >> Keith Clark <ClarkPho...@spiritone.com> writes:
> >
> >> >It's not like they can be reformed or have any redeeming human qualities
> >> >anyway. Eliminate them. Make it known that such
> >> >activity is not and will not be acceptable and use an iron fist.
> >>
> >> Yup. Ship them out in cattle cars to the concentration camps.
>
> >Geez, Dave, a little early to go to the Nazi card.
>
> Go early and often. It's a Usenet tradition. :-)
>
> >This is a Lienhart/Tiernan trick so early in a thread, but certainly
> >beneath you.
>
> Har! Nothing is beneath me! Actually, you're right, but what I felt was
> that Mr. Clark's words were sufficiently strongly worded that an emotional
> equivalent was in order.
>
> >Repent.
>
> There is no god but Usenet, and or.politics is its prophet.
ROFLMAO! Wonderful response!
Nimue
: In article <35E39A27...@spiritone.com>,
: ClarkPho...@spiritone.com says...
:
: > So round up the known gang members and eliminate them.
:
: On what pretext? Gangs aren't illegal, you know. Some of the things
: they do may be illegal, but a bunch of kids getting together to hang out
: is perfectly legal.
Larry, I'm glad you pointed out that a "gang" is a bunch of kids getting
together. I do remember when I was young we would call our groups of
friends "a gang of friends." It was associated with shotting, hurting
others, etc... just a group of kids who would get together at school and
after school. That was all.
:
: > Time for an end to political correctness. Deal with crime with an iron fist.
:
: I thought that street shootings were the problem. Now you want to get
: into the game?
:
: The solution is simple and has been iterated many times. It requires
: fewer police, preserves public funds, protects the rights of all
: citizens, and would eliminate half the crime in America at one blow.
: People have discussed it here at length, so I'm not going to bother.
I don't know about the fewer police... but I will state that there isn't
anything for our teens to do in Salem.
We've taken jobs away from them. We don't see our teens picking our
berries anymore. It is even hard for a teen to get a job at the State
Fair anymore because those jobs are going to the unemployed. Teens use to
work at fast food, but the number of teens working in fast food has
declined. It hasn't declined because they don't want to work, but because
adults have taken those jobs instead.
We've taken what ever play away from them. They can't "hang" around down
town Salem like I use to when I was young... the bus stop/court house was
always a place to go... but not anymore. They can't just hang around the
malls... they've been ran out of there too. We have even taken away "the
gut". No more driving cars up and down the streets... oh my! what a
crime that was (as I roll my eyes).
sorry, but when I was a teen... there was the places to "hang out", the
gut, parks, jobs, etc... Now there isn't anything for a teen to do.
Nothing... so we, as parents and society, have sent our kids off to a
summer vacation with nothing to do but wonder the streets...
Those kids get involved with other friends. The friends as a group feel
hated and untrusted by society and their own parents (look at some of the
parents). Plus a lot more...
There isn't a simple solution, but it does start with everyone. Our teens
need to know that they are wanted and needed. I know when my oldest, who
is a teen, was working earlier this summer he was doing community type
work and he felt wanted and needed by the community... it gave him
self-worth. None of my kids are involved in "gangs" and neither are their
friends... but I do feel for them. My oldest applied for a job at the
State Fair and he will be one of the last to be called because he is only
16. I find this sad.
Picking berries and working at the Fair gave our kids something to do,
made them feel good about themselves, and gave them some money in their
pockets... we took that away from them... we are just experiencing the
end result...
And to anyone else... have you ever spent any time talking to any "gang"
members? Ask them why? I have... Give those kids a reason, the means,
and you'll be surprised on how it could motivate them into doing something
wonderful with their lives.
Tracy
http://www.teleport.com/~nimue/index.html
My peace... traveling anywhere that I can reach within a four hour period
of time. My medium... my car (watch out for that white car).
My pleasure... taking tons of pictures. My freedom... the State of
Oregon and all it's wonders....
**** spamguard in place! to email me: nimue at teleport dot com ****
Larry Caldwell
> So round up the known gang members and eliminate them.
Delighted. You go first. All you have to do to save your ass is prove
you've never associated with anyone.
-- Larry
Larry Caldwell
ni...@merlins.place says...
> : The solution is simple and has been iterated many times. It requires
> : fewer police, preserves public funds, protects the rights of all
> : citizens, and would eliminate half the crime in America at one blow.
> : People have discussed it here at length, so I'm not going to bother.
> I don't know about the fewer police... but I will state that there isn't
> anything for our teens to do in Salem.
I was referring to the end of prohibition. Gang violence and organized
crime at every level of society is the price you pay for prohibition.
Instead, the government should start regulating the sale of drugs instead
of letting any Tom, Dick or Susie get into the business.
> sorry, but when I was a teen... there was the places to "hang out", the
> gut, parks, jobs, etc... Now there isn't anything for a teen to do.
> Nothing... so we, as parents and society, have sent our kids off to a
> summer vacation with nothing to do but wonder the streets...
Different topic, but the current 9-month school year is an artifact of
pioneer days, when every available pair of hands was needed to get the
harves in or people would starve. In our current society, where only 2%
of the population lives on farms and it is actually illegal for children
to work in the fields, this makes no sense at all.
Now that we have statewide funding and control of public schools, the
state should just switch to a 12 month schedule with 2 or 3 2-week
holidays. The extra time could be used to move kids on an academic track
into community colleges at age 16 (which many are already doing) and
offering some vocational training to those who won't go to college.
-- Larry
Hal Lillywhite
>I live in Salem, Oregon.
>Salem would not know a gang problem if it were introduced formally.
>one or two gang incidents a week... maybe 2 gunrelated events in a
>month.
...
Well, that is the time to stop it. If you let a gang alone it tends
to grow. If you crack down when it first starts you can nip this
garbage in the bud. I say, go after the first signs of gang
activity, tagging etc. and prosecute to the max anybody involved.
You don't have to violate constitutional rights, just be vigorous in
enforcement of the law.
No or little enforcement of laws against gang-related activity sends
the message to the gangs that they can get away with it. Vigorous
enforcement sends the opposite message.
Adam Weiss
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.02A.98082...@user2.teleport.com>,
> ni...@merlins.place says...
>
> > : The solution is simple and has been iterated many times. It requires
> > : fewer police, preserves public funds, protects the rights of all
> > : citizens, and would eliminate half the crime in America at one blow.
> > : People have discussed it here at length, so I'm not going to bother.
>
> > I don't know about the fewer police... but I will state that there isn't
> > anything for our teens to do in Salem.
>
> I was referring to the end of prohibition. Gang violence and organized
> crime at every level of society is the price you pay for prohibition.
> Instead, the government should start regulating the sale of drugs instead
> of letting any Tom, Dick or Susie get into the business.
True enough. And as for DEA agents who fear losing their jobs: we're at
a great point in history to deal with that one. Turn the DEA into the
ATD (American Terrorist Defenses) or something, and have them basically
continue doing what they do now, only looking for illegal weapons and
bombs instead of drugs. The only ones who would suffer are the drug
sniffing dogs, who would either need to be trained to smell bombs
instead or would need to be adopted by good families.
>
> > sorry, but when I was a teen... there was the places to "hang out", the
> > gut, parks, jobs, etc... Now there isn't anything for a teen to do.
> > Nothing... so we, as parents and society, have sent our kids off to a
> > summer vacation with nothing to do but wonder the streets...
>
> Different topic, but the current 9-month school year is an artifact of
> pioneer days, when every available pair of hands was needed to get the
> harves in or people would starve. In our current society, where only 2%
> of the population lives on farms and it is actually illegal for children
> to work in the fields, this makes no sense at all.
Well, it's illegal and it isn't illegal for children to work in the
fields. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they can't if they're
doing it for someone else in order to make money for their family, but
they can if their family owns the farm and they're "just doing chores";
not getting paid. Furthermore, farming has become less and less labor
intensive as technology has continued to improve. So I do aggree with
you.
>
> Now that we have statewide funding and control of public schools, the
> state should just switch to a 12 month schedule with 2 or 3 2-week
> holidays. The extra time could be used to move kids on an academic track
> into community colleges at age 16 (which many are already doing) and
> offering some vocational training to those who won't go to college.
>
> -- Larry
>
I would aggree, but with slightly more holidays. How about 4 2.5 month
"quarters" with half month vacations after them, one to coincide with
Christmas.
Also, how about a longer school day as well -- from say 9:30 to 4:30?
Part of the juvenile delinquincy problem in the US is kids who get home
from school 3 hours earlier than their parents get home from work.
School sports? They currently happen after school, and that doesn't
have to change. Make all of the academic courses happen from 9:30 to
3:00, and then make students who aren't on sports teams take gym from
3:00 to 4:30 instead of at various times during the day. Make students
who are on teams exempt from gym (something that should happen anyway).
(Of course, a more radical approach would be to take sports out of our
schools entirely, the way most other countries have, and affiliate them
with the professional teams and local youth sports leagues instead)
I'd also like to see a school voucher system instituted, but we've
already discussed that at depth here on or.politics before (see my post
on houston.general regarding this).
--
Adam Weiss
aw...@pdq.net
http://members.tripod.com/~AWeiss/index.html
--
"Give me immortality, or give me death."
--
Neal Feldman
I never said do nothing about it. Stamp it out. But their wild cries
of armagerddon have, to me, a chicken little air to them.
Nimue
: In article <Pine.GSO.4.02A.98082...@user2.teleport.com>,
: ni...@merlins.place says...
:
: > sorry, but when I was a teen... there was the places to "hang out", the
: > gut, parks, jobs, etc... Now there isn't anything for a teen to do.
: > Nothing... so we, as parents and society, have sent our kids off to a
: > summer vacation with nothing to do but wonder the streets...
:
: Different topic, but the current 9-month school year is an artifact of
: pioneer days, when every available pair of hands was needed to get the
: harves in or people would starve. In our current society, where only 2%
: of the population lives on farms and it is actually illegal for children
: to work in the fields, this makes no sense at all.
It doesn't make any since to make picking berries illegal... children have
been doing it for a long time in Oregon and it wasn't doing any harm.
:
: Now that we have statewide funding and control of public schools, the
: state should just switch to a 12 month schedule with 2 or 3 2-week
: holidays. The extra time could be used to move kids on an academic track
: into community colleges at age 16 (which many are already doing) and
: offering some vocational training to those who won't go to college.
I agree with the year around schools. We should be educating our children
year around with more shorter breaks inbetween. Since they really don't
have anything to do, and if there isn't anything else to do for a child
they should be doing something... school is a good thing.
Nimue
: I would aggree, but with slightly more holidays. How about 4 2.5 month
: "quarters" with half month vacations after them, one to coincide with
: Christmas.
Modified schools work simular to this in Salem. It's more like three
months on and a couple weeks off.
:
: Also, how about a longer school day as well -- from say 9:30 to 4:30?
: Part of the juvenile delinquincy problem in the US is kids who get home
: from school 3 hours earlier than their parents get home from work.
: School sports? They currently happen after school, and that doesn't
: have to change. Make all of the academic courses happen from 9:30 to
: 3:00, and then make students who aren't on sports teams take gym from
: 3:00 to 4:30 instead of at various times during the day. Make students
: who are on teams exempt from gym (something that should happen anyway).
: (Of course, a more radical approach would be to take sports out of our
: schools entirely, the way most other countries have, and affiliate them
: with the professional teams and local youth sports leagues instead)
There's a small problem with starting school around 9:30 and ending around
4:00... buses. Right now in Salem it takes the whole fleet of buses to
ship our kids to school. High Schools start around 7:30am and get out
around 2:00pm. Middle Schools start around 8:00am and get out around
2:30pm. Elementary Schools start around 8:30am and get out around 3:00pm.
The buses that were picking up and dropping kids off at the High Schools
will turn around and gather up the kids for Middle school and so on. So
we can't have all schools starting about the same time... there isn't
enough buses.
As a single parent I would rather have the schools start early because I
can drop them off as I'm going into work. Yes this does mean they will be
home alone until 5:30pm, but at least I can see them off in the morning
and know that they did go to school.
Now, there has been talk about having two different time schedules for the
High Schools. An early schedule and a later schedule. The later would
run from late morning into early evening. I'm not exactly sure where I
would stand on that issue...
I don't mind the High Schools getting out around 2:00pm, because if my
oldest received a job, he could work three to four hours after school
without it going into the evening hours.
What I wouldn't mind seeing is a bit longer day in terms of 30 to 60
minutes longer. This way they could either allow the kids to have access
to the computer labs during this "extra" period to help with homework...
or do other homework related activities with groups or adults.
William Hunt
>Larry Caldwell wrote:
>> I was referring to the end of prohibition. Gang violence and organized
>> crime at every level of society is the price you pay for prohibition.
>> Instead, the government should start regulating the sale of drugs instead
>> of letting any Tom, Dick or Susie get into the business.
>True enough. And as for DEA agents who fear losing their jobs: we're at
>a great point in history to deal with that one. Turn the DEA into the
>ATD (American Terrorist Defenses) or something, and have them basically
>continue doing what they do now, only looking for illegal weapons and
>bombs instead of drugs. The only ones who would suffer are the drug
>sniffing dogs, who would either need to be trained to smell bombs
>instead or would need to be adopted by good families.
you gotta be kidding! No-one would be safe, we'd have 'terrorist' bombs
going off every day.
Remember that the 'War on Some Drugs' began with the end of prohibition
of alcohol and the Marijuana Tax Act.
If, as Larry suggests, the government started regulating the sale of drugs,
then at least the government thugs could still be employed enforcing the
government regulations and keeping Tom, Dick and Susie out of the free
market.
--
William Hunt, Portland Oregon USA w...@teleport.com
Eric A. Mathiasen
: > of the population lives on farms and it is actually illegal for children
: > to work in the fields, this makes no sense at all.
The laws may have changed in twelve years, but when I was a kid, you could
do non-mechanical (meaning pick berries or weed) after 14 with a permit,
to operate heavy machinery you needed
to be 18,
--
-Eric
Eric A. Mathiasen | er...@mathiasen.com | www.mathiasen.com
Q: How does a quantum logic chicken cross the road?
A. The chicken is distributed probabilistically on all sides
of the road until you observe it on the side of your choice.
Adam Weiss
>
> Adam Weiss (aw...@pdq.net) wrote:
> : > of the population lives on farms and it is actually illegal for children
> : > to work in the fields, this makes no sense at all.
>
> The laws may have changed in twelve years, but when I was a kid, you could
> do non-mechanical (meaning pick berries or weed) after 14 with a permit,
> to operate heavy machinery you needed
> to be 18,
You may be right. I'd imagine, however, that the age for the operation
of heavy machinery varies from state to state.
> Q: How does a quantum logic chicken cross the road?
> A. The chicken is distributed probabilistically on all sides
> of the road until you observe it on the side of your choice.
Great sig. Physics person?
Adam Weiss
Sure, there could be some flexibility in the schools. The school day
would be longer, but they could still start the schools according to
your schedule -- with highschools starting at 8:00 or so and going until
4:30, middle schools starting at 8:30 and going until 5:00, and
elementary schools starting at 9:00 and going until 5:30.
>
> As a single parent I would rather have the schools start early because I
> can drop them off as I'm going into work. Yes this does mean they will be
> home alone until 5:30pm, but at least I can see them off in the morning
> and know that they did go to school.
That's a good point. However if schools were open at 8:00 but didn't
start until 8:30 or 9:00 you could do the same. Then you could also go
and pick them up from school, if you so choose, in the afternoon without
having to take off early from work.
>
> Now, there has been talk about having two different time schedules for the
> High Schools. An early schedule and a later schedule. The later would
> run from late morning into early evening. I'm not exactly sure where I
> would stand on that issue...
>
That's a system that's been devised to ease crowding in schools --
basically letting them cut class sizes in half without adding teachers
or classrooms. I personally like to compare this system to RAM doubling
software for your computer -- in theory it should work like a charm, but
there are lots of things that just aren't compatible.
> I don't mind the High Schools getting out around 2:00pm, because if my
> oldest received a job, he could work three to four hours after school
> without it going into the evening hours.
That may be true. I don't doubt that most kids do not turn to a life of
delinquency just because they are given the freedom of half days of
school. But I think that the short school day is a cause of delinquency
in America, and I think it's something that needs to be addressed. Not
all high school students get after school jobs or get involved with
sports after school either.
>
> What I wouldn't mind seeing is a bit longer day in terms of 30 to 60
> minutes longer. This way they could either allow the kids to have access
> to the computer labs during this "extra" period to help with homework...
> or do other homework related activities with groups or adults.
>
I would rather add a few hours than just 30 to 60 minutes. The latter
seems like it would defeat the purpose.
Of course, I also firmly oppose the shortening of lunch periods for
students. There is no possible way a person can eat a good meal in
under 20 minutes, but that's what our school children have to do. I
say, make the day go from 9 to 5 (or 8:30 to 4:30, or 8:00 to 4:00), but
give students a 1 hour break in the middle of the day, during which they
can eat lunch, use the library, go outside, but can't leave school
grounds.
> Tracy
>
> http://www.teleport.com/~nimue/index.html
>
> My peace... traveling anywhere that I can reach within a four hour period
> of time. My medium... my car (watch out for that white car).
> My pleasure... taking tons of pictures. My freedom... the State of
> Oregon and all it's wonders....
>
> **** spamguard in place! to email me: nimue at teleport dot com ****
--
peter webster
certain groups...gee: I think of a bunch of frustrated and cruddy-feeling
proto-nazis...gosh, I wonder why that is杵o, not really. Its because in
my lifetime I've seen the results of the fascists in spain, Italy,
germany, the stalinists in as many places, patriotic vigilantes here at
home...
Does anyone remember reading Jack London's The Iron Heel? Pretty
prophetic all right.
I guess I'm still naive enough to be suprised that people can have such
barricades around their hearts and heads.
Nimue
: Nimue wrote:
: >
: > As a single parent I would rather have the schools start early because I
: > can drop them off as I'm going into work. Yes this does mean they will be
: > home alone until 5:30pm, but at least I can see them off in the morning
: > and know that they did go to school.
:
: That's a good point. However if schools were open at 8:00 but didn't
: start until 8:30 or 9:00 you could do the same. Then you could also go
: and pick them up from school, if you so choose, in the afternoon without
: having to take off early from work.
If schools didn't open until 8:00... it would be a nightmare come true. I
wouldn't be getting to work until 9am... I am suppose to be there at 8am.
I need those doors to open by 7:30am or I won't make it to work on time.
If I didn't get to work until after 8am, then I would have to make up that
missed time by staying late.
Keep in mind an eight hour day at work is actually nine hours with lunch.
And with the commute it could be anywhere from 10 to 11 hours. For me it
takes 20 minutes to get to work and 25 to get home. Therefore, my day is
more like a 10 hour day with that lunch included. I normally drive home
during that hour and start a load of laundry, or whatever then go back.
so that is why I would rather have early starting times and one hour
longer days for kids in school. My youngest has always been in day cares
since he was six months and is use to being at a "pre-school" from 7:30am
to 5:30 pm... so he finds school kinda funny and strange with such short
days. He has also learned more in a day care within a six month period of
time vs one school year in kindergarten. Because of his day care
experience he is being placed in TAG this year... he is one year a head
of many of the students because of the lack of education in our education
institutions...
: >
: > Now, there has been talk about having two different time schedules for the
: > High Schools. An early schedule and a later schedule. The later would
: > run from late morning into early evening. I'm not exactly sure where I
: > would stand on that issue...
: >
: That's a system that's been devised to ease crowding in schools --
: basically letting them cut class sizes in half without adding teachers
: or classrooms. I personally like to compare this system to RAM doubling
: software for your computer -- in theory it should work like a charm, but
: there are lots of things that just aren't compatible.
In theory it would keep the current teacher count, but it really wouldn't.
We would have to hire a certain amount of teachers to support the second
schedule. Under contract the teacher doesn't have to put in that many
hours or be expected to teach classes from 7:30am to 7pm... when would
they have time to grade the work, plan the day, etc? Do this would
actually double the number of teachers in High Schools. It would also
increase the number of bus drivers... it is the school district's
responsibility to make sure the kids are transported safely (within
reason) to and from school. We would need more Food Service people,
administration people, etc. About the only area where it would safe money
is the cost of using the building vs building a new school. No one is
going to want to work a 12 hour day just because the schools are opened 12
hours per day... the districts will have to come up with more employees.
:
: > I don't mind the High Schools getting out around 2:00pm, because if my
: > oldest received a job, he could work three to four hours after school
: > without it going into the evening hours.
:
: That may be true. I don't doubt that most kids do not turn to a life of
: delinquency just because they are given the freedom of half days of
: school. But I think that the short school day is a cause of delinquency
: in America, and I think it's something that needs to be addressed. Not
: all high school students get after school jobs or get involved with
: sports after school either.
I agree with the delinquency... The kids need to have something to do
after school or they will get themselves into trouble. Personally I feel
blessed with my kids... they have stayed out of trouble and have not got
involved with anyone who does get into trouble... them and their friends
are considered the "nerds" of the schools :-) They usually end up at my
house talking about computers, games, taking care of other
responsibilities, etc... I'm proud of them. It isn't easy and I don't
know what I would do (since I'm single) if one of my kids was just the
opposite.
: >
: > What I wouldn't mind seeing is a bit longer day in terms of 30 to 60
: > minutes longer. This way they could either allow the kids to have access
: > to the computer labs during this "extra" period to help with homework...
: > or do other homework related activities with groups or adults.
: >
: I would rather add a few hours than just 30 to 60 minutes. The latter
: seems like it would defeat the purpose.
I just think of how it was when I was in college vs schools. In a
University I found myself with a couple of hours inbetween classes and
used that time to study, work with friends on group projects, talk to
instructors, or do computer related homework. I put myself on campus from
7am to 3pm and sometimes up to 4pm depending on my schedule. Since I was
actually in classes only four of those eight to nine hours... it gave me
plenty of time to do the other things necessary to keep my grades up. I
try to get my own kids to do the same... but most kids don't have that
same since of "work" as I did as an adult... not to mention I went
full-time as a single mother of three kids. That 'extra' time was
basically all the time I really had to do my homework... so I used my time
very wisely.
:
: Of course, I also firmly oppose the shortening of lunch periods for
: students. There is no possible way a person can eat a good meal in
: under 20 minutes, but that's what our school children have to do.
I totally agree! I wasn't happy to learn that my oldest in High School
was given only a 30 minutes lunch break... and when you take out the time
to take care of going to a looker, etc... it came down to 20 minutes.
They need an hour lunch.
: I
: say, make the day go from 9 to 5 (or 8:30 to 4:30, or 8:00 to 4:00), but
: give students a 1 hour break in the middle of the day, during which they
: can eat lunch, use the library, go outside, but can't leave school
: grounds.
I agree... a longer day... and no way should a student be allowed to leave
the grounds... unless their parent checked them out. I agree with day
curfews on students, and I believe Salem is starting a day curfew meaning
students must be at school during school hours and not running all over
town.