The REAL FAQ: Addendum
John McAdams
Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: The main thrust of this new section - what it leads to, is the upsetting
: conclusion that strong fascist interests (and Nazi sympathizers),
: already present in the U.S. as early as the late 1940's (through
: Operation Paperclip & its linkage to U.S. Intelligence), were behind the
: JFK assassination. This also comports with similar fascist interests
: that attempted to kill DeGaulle (using the French 'Secret Army
: Organization, funded through Permindex) - See Part 2B.
OK, folks. I'd like some evidence for Permindex being in any way involved
in the assassination attempts against DeGaulle. The only stuff I see
quoted in the conspiracy books is from other conspiracy books, or from
Communist sources like PAESE SERA.
Do you or don't you have evidence?
.John
John McAdams
Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
: I surmise the group he infiltrated discovered his betrayal of their
: cause, and inserted him into their plans, as a patsy. This would easily
: be accomplished by having the motorcade route altered to cross in the
: vicinity of the School Book Depository Building. Oswald probably
: realized his predicament too late, and panicked. Indeed, Oswald probably
: had to kept *off* the 6th floor until the action was completed, and then
: killed. They missed doing so at the Book building so had to revert to
: next plan, engaging Tippitt to do it. However, Oswald pre-empted him.
: -----------
: Reference check: The Dallas Morning News of 22 November, 1963 clearly
: showed the motorcade route going along Main St., not making turns onto
: Houston or Elm. The Warren Commission Exhibit of the same, however, is
: bastardized - in that it is not the faithful reproduction of the
: original paper, which should include all its aspects.
: Some commentators have attempted to defend the Warren Commission Exhibit
: version as being the accurate one ('since everyone in Dallas knew one
: could not go from Main St. direct to the Trade Mart'), and therefore
: preferable. This is egregious for two reasons.
: First, if a Commission of Inquiry - as the Warren Commission was
: purported to be- was doing its duty, it puts out its 'exhibits' as fully
: faithful reproductions. This includes presumed 'errors' and all. It is
: not up to any Commission to alter an exhibit, to comport with what it
: 'thinks' is accurate, or how the paper 'should have appeared.'
: Second, the argument that the original published route could not get to
: the Trade Mart is wrong. As Groden and Livingstone observe (op. cit., p
: 130-31):
: "The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on
: Main Street, passed under the underpass, and then proceeded on
: Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart".
: The Dallas papers, in fact, indicate a route change in evidence
: from as early as the previous evening. (Diverting from Main Street
: to Houston, then on to Elm). In fact, this is nearly a 90 degree
: diversion. Who could have authorized it? None other than the Mayor
: or Dallas at that time Earl Cabell, who - by 'coincidence' just
: happened to be the brother of ousted CIA Depty. Director Charles
: Cabell (after the Bay of Pigs). Those who blithely dispute or
: choose to ignore collusion by the Cabell brothers - to at least
: getting JFK into the firing zone, are both blind and naive. True,
: there may not be 'hard' evidence - there probably never was
: anyway - merely word of mouth communications, untraceable, and
: unverifiable. But the coincidental confluence of circumstances,
: and the power to effect a course of action to a certain pre-
: determined goal, is too great to overlook or minimize.
It's astonishing that this old chestnut keeps being wheeled out by
conspiracists, long after having been debunked.
Check out:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm
Let me suggest that this issue is symtomatic of this whole essay, and
entire series.
.John
John McAdams
Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
The following is a real howler:
: Similarly, you want to research the American Security Council, and its
: meetings convened from 1955 to 1961,(****) with both military and
: corporations.
: Go back also to the beginning of the movie 'JFK' (I believe) and replay
: Eisenhower's farewell speech. Notice how he warns of the rise of the
: 'military industrial complex'.
: This is not a nebulous, arcane or abstract entity. It is real. It is
: embodied in the American Security Council and in the myriad of networks
: it supports.
: This network was also tied in with the Nazis brought in under 'Operation
: Paperclip'. I am convinced it is also the primary 'architect' of the
: assassination of John Kennedy, and its coverup.
: Nor is JFK its only victim. A veritable trail of bodies lies sacrificed
: to Nazi ideals perpetuated within it: Martin Luther King, Robert
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Kennedy, Olaf Palme, Albino Luciani (Pope John Paul I), Roberto Calvi
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: (P2 member and 'executioner', found hanging under Blackfriar's Bridge,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: London, June 17, 1982); Anwar Sadat, Yitzak Rabin and (most recently)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: the Nobel Prize Economics winner, Edward S. Vickrey.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Those folks really *do* get around, don't they?
.John
Thpa2d
In article <34D0AB...@ix.netcom.com>, Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>"Dulles needed Gehlen's warped and exaggerated view of the Soviet threat
>to expand and perpetuate the new American security fortress that
>included: Gehlen, Dornberger, and Paper Clip; Bormann and Odessa; McCloy
>and the Krupps; the coups and assassinations of the Eisenhower era; the
>CIA-Mafia ties; the gun running and dope trafficking, and all the while
>great fortunes were being made in the growing military-industrial complex,
>which men like Dulles and McCloy represented in their law firms."
Daeron: Is the Dornberger listed in the above "Walter R. Dornberger" who
was held as a POW in England between 1945 and 1947 and brought to
the US in 1950? The same Walter R. Dornberger, was brought to the US under
the custody and control of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency?
If so, I was wondering how he directly fits into the death of JFK. I have him
listed as part of the defection project connected to LHO, but find no traces
of his actions directly connected to the death of JFK. Could you expand on
the link to the death of JFK concerning Dornberger?
jko
Thpa2d
Most covert and overt operations involving efforts to examine the potential
success of a "project" are hidden within existing structured programs of
various government agencies. These "projects" are very sensitive and in
most cases very politically controversal. In writing the script for "Maggie's
Farm" I had to select an agency that had a intelligence network in place,
within the framework of it's various projects or programs. There is only
one that has deep connections to LHO and that is the State Department.
Here is one of individuals connected to the State Department in some
manner in programs that can be linked to LHO's defection or his return.
I would like to read comments on this individual.
WILLIAM AVERY HYDE, the father of Ruth Paine, William C. Hyde and
Sylvia Ludlow Hyde (Mrs. John Hoke).
Between the years 1939 to 1941 he was the District Sales Manager of
Greater New York for the Farm Bureau Insurance Companies of Ohio.
This company is known as Nationwide today and is still operating out
of Columbus Ohio. W.A. Hyde worked for Murray Lincoln, number one
target of the JBS in Ohio.
During the same period, JAMES HAZEN HYDE and HENRY BALDWIN
HYDE, were connected to EQUITABLE LIFE ASSURANCE SOCIETY OF
the UNITED STATES. Both James and Henry were deeply connected to
OSS operations in France and Algeria. I'm still searching for a family
connection. Anyone with further information on a family connection, I would
like to read what you have. Both parents of LHO worked for Insurance
companies at various times, but no connection to Nationwide is found at
this time.
William's first contact with Communists came in the 1929 annual
meeting of the Eastern Cooperative League. He spent alot of time
blocking Communist infiltration into consumer cooperatives.
In 1957 William Hyde was considered for a covert operation in Viet Nam,
but was not used. His security file contains two investigative reports
as well as a copy of a 1956 investigative report on Sylvia Ludlow Hyde
Ruth Paines sister. On December 4, 1963 the CIA sent the FBI material
on Ruth and her family with the request that "CIA material not be
inserted in the Bureau reports. Hosty's name is on one of the documents
concerning this file.
William A. Hyde worked for the State Department's Agency of International
Development. Which is where I feel that the "Defection of LHO" was hidden
within.
Comments?
jko
Thpa2d
There is some conflict surrounding the events of the passing out of FPCC
material, in which Carlos Bringiuer confronts LHO, that I would like to
discuss.
First LHO writes a letter on 1 Aug 1963, to the FPCC, which is received
on the 4th of August. In the letter is the following:
"I'm sure you understand after that I worked out of a post office box and by
useing street demonstrations and some circular work have substained a great
deal of interest but no
new members. Through the efforts of some cuban-exial "gusanos" a street
demonstration was attacked and we were oficialy cautioned by the police.
************************************
This indicates no arrest were made and that others were there with LHO passing
out matterial.
This letter was written and mailed prior to the Aug 9th incident.
Does anyone know of ANOTHER street incident where the police arrived but only
took names?
The reason I ask is that I'm in contact with a Cuban exhile who worked for VOA
in New Orleans
and remembers a street demonstration involving LHO, he was latter interviewed
by the WC
concerning this incident, he is recorded at the scene in a home movie, which
was televised
three years ago, the following is his version of the incident:
"Then, in 1963 one afternoon, late afternoon, a Cuban friend of mine named
Mario came to
the studios of VOA to tell me that there was a man distributing propaganda in
the form of
leaflets on Canal Street. He was, on the sidewalk of I think, a department
store named Rich's or something like that. Bringuier was there when we
arrived, and I will say that another dozen of Cubans. We confronted Oswald and
someone slapped him. I dont think this was an act of
bravery for he was only one, but within minutes the police came. We did not
have to explain to
them what has happened. They took our names and we went home. I never thought
about that any more, no big deal."
VOA was a State Department operation, connected to VOA was Radio Free Cuba,
established
by Guy Banister. My source (Marcus) remembers the name of Guy Banister as being
connected
to his radio work. Marcus was connected to several radio stations in Cuba and
was deeply involved in Cuban actions against Castro after the revolution in the
United States.
Any information concerning filming of a LHO street demonstration, by a tourist
and any
other incidents involving the police and LHO in New Orleans would be welcomed.
jko
Daeron
Thpa2d wrote:
>
> In article <34D0AB...@ix.netcom.com>, Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >"Dulles needed Gehlen's warped and exaggerated view of the Soviet threat
> >to expand and perpetuate the new American security fortress that
> >included: Gehlen, Dornberger, and Paper Clip; Bormann and Odessa; McCloy
> >and the Krupps; the coups and assassinations of the Eisenhower era; the
> >CIA-Mafia ties; the gun running and dope trafficking, and all the while
> >great fortunes were being made in the growing military-industrial complex,
> >which men like Dulles and McCloy represented in their law firms."
>
> Daeron: Is the Dornberger listed in the above "Walter R. Dornberger" who
> was held as a POW in England between 1945 and 1947 and brought to
> the US in 1950? The same Walter R. Dornberger, was brought to the US under
> the custody and control of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency?
Yes - one and the same.
> If so, I was wondering how he directly fits into the death of JFK.
as "overall supervisor of classified projects for Bell Aerospace- the
same division for which Michael Paine worked at Bell Helicopter in
Dallas" (Di Eugenio, 'Destiny Betrayed', p. 215). This is suggestive of
more than mere coincidence.
Let's also recall that Ruth Paine (Michael's wife) got the job for LHO
at the TSBD.
I have him
> listed as part of the defection project connected to LHO, but find no traces
> of his actions directly connected to the death of JFK. Could you expand on
> the link to the death of JFK concerning Dornberger?
I cannot expand at present - other than to offer conjectures. It does
seem strange, however, that he is in the same Bell Aircraft division as
Michael Paine in Nov., 1963.
The relevance in the FAQ, is more in the sense of Dulles' own background
- as one of the prominent members of the Warren Commission in feeling no
compunctions "about allying with Nazis - borrowing, pardoning or
granting free entry into American life members of the ugliest, most
insane fascist dream ever fashioned."
In other words, 'past is prologue' - and what a particular man has done
(in this case through expediency) can color and guide his future actions
(i.e. finding LHO guilty to deflect attention from the actual
perpetrators)
--
"We can have democracy or we can have great wealth concentrated
in the hands of a few. We cannot have both."
- Justice Louis Brandeis.
jack white
Thpa2d wrote:
>
> In article <34D0AB...@ix.netcom.com>, Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >"Dulles needed Gehlen's warped and exaggerated view of the Soviet threat
> >to expand and perpetuate the new American security fortress that
> >included: Gehlen, Dornberger, and Paper Clip; Bormann and Odessa; McCloy
> >and the Krupps; the coups and assassinations of the Eisenhower era; the
> >CIA-Mafia ties; the gun running and dope trafficking, and all the while
> >great fortunes were being made in the growing military-industrial complex,
> >which men like Dulles and McCloy represented in their law firms."
>
> Daeron: Is the Dornberger listed in the above "Walter R. Dornberger" who
> was held as a POW in England between 1945 and 1947 and brought to
> the US in 1950? The same Walter R. Dornberger, was brought to the US under
> the custody and control of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency?
>
> listed as part of the defection project connected to LHO, but find no traces
> of his actions directly connected to the death of JFK. Could you expand on
> the link to the death of JFK concerning Dornberger?
>
As I recall, Dornberger was assigned to Bell Helicopter, where Michael Paine also was
assigned.
Jack
jack white
The works of Mae Brussel, John Judge, and Penn Jones should be consulted for more
information on this connection.
Jack
Daeron wrote:
>
> Thpa2d wrote:
> >
> > In article <34D0AB...@ix.netcom.com>, Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >
> > >"Dulles needed Gehlen's warped and exaggerated view of the Soviet threat
> > >to expand and perpetuate the new American security fortress that
> > >included: Gehlen, Dornberger, and Paper Clip; Bormann and Odessa; McCloy
> > >and the Krupps; the coups and assassinations of the Eisenhower era; the
> > >CIA-Mafia ties; the gun running and dope trafficking, and all the while
> > >great fortunes were being made in the growing military-industrial complex,
> > >which men like Dulles and McCloy represented in their law firms."
> >
> > Daeron: Is the Dornberger listed in the above "Walter R. Dornberger" who
> > was held as a POW in England between 1945 and 1947 and brought to
> > the US in 1950? The same Walter R. Dornberger, was brought to the US under
> > the custody and control of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency?
>
> Yes - one and the same.
>
> > If so, I was wondering how he directly fits into the death of JFK.
> as "overall supervisor of classified projects for Bell Aerospace- the
> same division for which Michael Paine worked at Bell Helicopter in
> Dallas" (Di Eugenio, 'Destiny Betrayed', p. 215). This is suggestive of
> more than mere coincidence.
>
> Let's also recall that Ruth Paine (Michael's wife) got the job for LHO
> at the TSBD.
>
> I have him
> > listed as part of the defection project connected to LHO, but find no traces
> > of his actions directly connected to the death of JFK. Could you expand on
> > the link to the death of JFK concerning Dornberger?
>
Thpa2d
>I cannot expand at present - other than to offer conjectures. It does
>seem strange, however, that he is in the same Bell Aircraft division as
Michael Paine in Nov., 1963.
Conjectures abound.......facts are what most of us are looking for.
When can you expand on the connection to JFK's death relating to
Dornberger? I feel the Dornberger connection to LHO ended in 1959
and in that period there was not even one on one involvement. Dornberger
only provided insight to the project during the formation.
jko
Pearl Gladstone
jack white wrote:
>
> Thpa2d wrote:
> >
> > In article <34D0AB...@ix.netcom.com>, Daeron <sta...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >
> > >"Dulles needed Gehlen's warped and exaggerated view of the Soviet threat
> > >to expand and perpetuate the new American security fortress that
> > >included: Gehlen, Dornberger, and Paper Clip; Bormann and Odessa; McCloy
> > >and the Krupps; the coups and assassinations of the Eisenhower era; the
> > >CIA-Mafia ties; the gun running and dope trafficking, and all the while
> > >great fortunes were being made in the growing military-industrial complex,
> > >which men like Dulles and McCloy represented in their law firms."
> >
> > Daeron: Is the Dornberger listed in the above "Walter R. Dornberger" who
> > was held as a POW in England between 1945 and 1947 and brought to
> > the US in 1950? The same Walter R. Dornberger, was brought to the US under
> > the custody and control of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency?
> >
> > listed as part of the defection project connected to LHO, but find no traces
> > of his actions directly connected to the death of JFK. Could you expand on
> > the link to the death of JFK concerning Dornberger?
> >
>
> As I recall, Dornberger was assigned to Bell Helicopter, where Michael Paine also was
> assigned.
>
> Jack
And so it goes, ....they just keep on turning up, these incestuous
relations....
Martin Shackelford
James:
There were two films of Oswald's first leafletting, by Jack
Martin and James Doyle. The second leafletting was filmed by WWL-TV and
WDSU-TV.
Martin
Daeron
If true - then that imho is appalling enough. More than appalling, i.e.
that a Nazi who used to exploit slave labor in the Reich cold have *any*
role - even the most oblique and rudimentary - in the 'processing' of
the 'project' or the planned interjection of LHO into the middle of it
as chief suspect.
As I said - my problems originate with the very fact these Nazis were
brought over, and given special portections (via a 'ratline') that
others - who were charged in the Nuremberg trials - were not. We can
argue til the cows come home that these guys were 'necessary to build
the intelligence structure' - but to me that is merely falling back on
justifying expediency and a sense of blind, selective justice.
The fact these characters could then 10-12 years later be involved in a
project to assassinate a sitting American President, is - unthinkable
(irrespective of whether that actually pulled a trigger, or ordered
others to orchestrate it).
As I said numerous times before, a bulk of files concerning the
assassination - and many of these connections - remains firmly under
wraps in the various secure lairs of the intelligence agencies. When and
if these goodly gentleman choose to release more, we will find out more.
Until then, speculation and conjectures will largely rule.
But - even if they do - we can at least see the 'pawprints' of the enemy
and the ultimate architects all over this case - simply by having the
will to 'connect the dots'.
Thpa2d
>
The works of Mae Brussel, John Judge, and Penn Jones should be consulted for
>more information on this connection.
Jack
Jack: The Weberman data base has alot of information, thats where I
picked up on Dornberger, granted at times the search is difficult since
he inter-connects individuals, and some of the data is not key. But there
is alot of information. His site allows you to download, large segments
that you can read through at anytime. Barb Lamonica (sp) has done alot
of work on Ruth and Mike Paine, but she does not post here. I talked with
John Judge two years ago briefly, but did not bring up Dornbeger at the
time. Alot of individuals here have interesting files on select individuals
but alot of the work is not shared or brought up for discussion.
jko
Thpa2d
>If true - then that imho is appalling enough. More than appalling, i.e.
>that a Nazi who used to exploit slave labor in the Reich cold have *any*
>role -even the most oblique and rudimentary - in the 'processing' of
>the 'project' or the planned interjection of LHO into the middle of it
>as chief suspect.
Dornberger did more then exploited slave labor, he was the man who
supervised the first guided missle and he directed the bombardment of
London with the V-2.
Missile warfare was the new wave of military engagements in 1950, 100
V-2's were brought to Texas for study after the war, Dornberger was key
in our efforts to match and surpass the technolgy of the V-2. It was a
trade off justified by the Soviet threat.
jko
Thpa2d
In article <34D44F60...@concentric.net>, Martin Shackelford
<msh...@concentric.net> writes:
>
James:
Martin
Martin: Thanks, I knew there was footage taken, by chance has anyone studied
the Cubans in the films to get the names, besides the two that went to court?
Marcus was introduced to me by Larry D, who asked you about the BBC film
"The Bearded Warriors". Marcus says that a tourist took "home movies" of the
event, he maybe mistaken on that part, but his daughter clearly could pick
him out in the footage, shown on the History Channel (?) several years ago (3).
Marcus has admitted basically that he uses and has used other names and
I can't blame him based on the information that he has provided me. His insight
to the revolution, Castro, Raul, Che, Cubela and others is very interesting and
will
make a good script.
jko
Martin Shackelford
James:
There weren't many Cubans in the films. Bringuier is easily
identifiable. I don't recall who else was there. I think Groden
published stills from the films. I'll attach an excerpt from my paper on
"The Oswald Films."
Martin
2. The New Orleans films
Oswald's activities in New Orleans attracted the
attention of both tourists and a professional cameraman.
2a. The Jack Martin Film (8-9-63)
In another of those aforementioned ironic
twists, a tourist named Jack Martin was in Dallas in August 1963. His
film records his view from the airplane. Next, he visits General Edwin
Walker, under whom he had served, allegedly target of an assassination
attempt by Lee Oswald in April of that year. The film documents the
scene of that attempt: the window through which the shot was fired, the
bullet hole, and the wall from behind which it was most likely fired,
ending with shots of Walker's flag and mailbox, and a nearby building
under construction (allegedly also photographed by Oswald prior to the
attempt!). Then we see the entrance to a movie theater, cypress trees, a
seal at the edge of a pool, and the statue of Andrew Jackson in
Lafayette Park in New Orleans. Aroused by a commotion on Canal Street,
Martin crossed to see what was happening, and began filming. We see Lee
Oswald, leaflets in hand, standing on the sidewalk, being harangued by
anti-Castro militants including Carlos Bringuier. Four police officers
are seen arriving. The film ends with a view of the yellow leaflets
scattered on the sidewalk after Bringuier knocked them out of Oswald's
hands, and a brief aerial view of a subdivision. Parts of the film have
only been used, to my knowledge, on the French television documentary,
"Le Mystere Kennedy." The documentary is available on video, and frames
from the film as well, from The Collector's Archives. A still from this
film was finally published in Robert Groden's 1995 book, The Search for
Lee Harvey Oswald, an essential photo archive on Oswald.
2b. The James Doyle Film (8-9-63)
James Doyle was a 16 year old teenager, visiting New
Orleans with his family in early August 1963. His film begins in
Lafayette Park, New Orleans, and includes a view of the Andrew Jackson
statue. He, too, then noticed a commotion along Canal Street, crossed
over to investigate, and began filming. Lee Oswald, back to the camera,
is talking with Carlos Bringuier, when a police officer arrives, pushes
Bringuier aside, and talks with Oswald, who gestures. Oswald is then
seen through the crowd, under arrest, obscured, moving to the left, and
we see him and the officer at curbside. The film ends with harbor views.
To my knowledge, this film has only appeared in one television program,
the British "Dispatches: The Day the Dream Died," available (as are
frames) from The Collector's Archives) A still from this film was also
first published in the 1995 Groden book.
2c. The Johann Rush Films (8-12 & 16-63)
Johann Rush was a news cameraman for WDSU-TV in
New Orleans in the August of 1963. He was on hand on August 12 when Lee
Oswald appeared at the New Orleans courthouse for sentencing after his
August 9 arrest. Rush filmed Oswald's approach, then Oswald posed for
the camera in a courthouse corridor. The footage also includes Carlos
Bringuier and the Cubans. Rush next filmed Oswald's leafleting at the
International Trade Mart on August 16. This is the footage which shows
Oswald and two colleagues (one of them Charles Steele Jr.) distributing
leaflets, a figure in the background alleged to be Clay Shaw, and two
foreground figures alleged to be Charles Rogers and Chauncey Holt. I
won't attempt to catalog the sources in which bits of this footage
appears, although the videotape "The Two Kennedys" (MPI Home Video,
1-800-323-0442, may still carry this title, or try The Collector's
Archives) is a good source, and stills from the footage appear in many
places.
2d. The WWL-TV Film (8-16-63)
The most famous still, however, is from a brief
bit of footage also taken during the August 16 leafleting, but by a
rival cameraman for WWL-TV named Mike O'Connor, and shows Oswald
thrusting a leaflet toward a passerby. Captioned "Garner Deposition
Exhibit 1," it appears in the Warren Report, and the footage is used in
various documentaries.
2e. The Mike Lala Film (8-21-63)
The final bit of New Orleans footage was taken by
cameraman Mike Lala during an interview of Oswald at WDSU-TV on August
21. It shows Oswald in left profile as he speaks. In the semi-fictional
film "Executive Action"(1973, National General Pictures, Warner Home
Video),, the footage is used as a training film for an Oswald impostor.
As with the other New Orleans TV footage, it is widely excerpted. The
Collector's Archives offers two frames from the film. I recall the
kindness of Bernard Fensterwald, who provided me with a copy of such a
still when I visited his office/archive in the mid-1970s—an archive
which evolved into the AARC.
Daeron
If that 'tradeoff' even obliquely, or indirectly, culminated in the
executive action of a sitting President - than *nothing* justified it.
We already had von Braun, who had no such 'baggage'.
Thpa2d
In article <34D511CB...@concentric.net>, Martin Shackelford
<msh...@concentric.net> writes:
>I'll attach an excerpt from my paper on
"The Oswald Films."
Excellent work Martin.......thanks
jko
Thpa2d
>And so it goes, ....they just keep on turning up, these
>incestuous relations....
The Dornberger/ M. Paine connection is not as interesting as other members
of the Hyde/Paine/Hoke family. I don't think Dornberger and M. Paine were
close associates, unless that can be established with facts. I have not seen
any other then both worked for Bell.
When one considers Mike's interest in "bridging the gap" by attending
JBS meetings and bringing along LHO. What is of interest is the attacks
made on Ruth's father by the JBS in Ohio, NY and in Texas......later Walker
is supposed to be a target of LHO's MC. How close did he want to "bridge"
jko
Thpa2d
>If that 'tradeoff' even obliquely, or indirectly, culminated in
>the executive action of a sitting President - than *nothing* justified it.
>We already had von Braun, who had no such 'baggage'.
I make no claim that Dornberger was involved in the death of JFK, you
did in your "Addendum".
As to von Braun, both Dornberger and von Braun were investigated
between Oct 51 and Dec 57 as still being connected to Nazi interests
and that their activities were not in the best interests of the United States.
No derogatory information other then statements, which were considered
pro-German, were found concerning Nazi connections after 1947 on
Dornberger. The problems of acceptance of von Braun is another study
in itself.
Although they both were involved in V-2 developement, Dornberger was
the worlds leading expert on the use of guided missiles in war. Would
you have rathered the Russians had his services? Both England and
the US felt war with the USSR just around the corner, hence the need
for these men to be kept from the Russians, by any cost.
Perhaps if you expanded on Dornberger's direct connection to the death
of JFK I can better understand your views.
Thpa2d
Need to know if anyone can tell me where it is confirmed that Jerry Buchanan
was the man that shoved LHO during the Aug 9th incident.
If you have the offical word on this I would appreicate knowing where it can be
found. I don't have anything offical on it but need it if it is out there
somewhere.
thanks much........jko
Thpa2d
Was DRE leader Isidro Borja, one of the men who may have been photographed
standing behind Oswald in a famous photo, helping Oswald pass out "Fair Play
for Cuba" leaflets in New Orleans during the August 9th, 1963 period.
Could this man be "Angel"......?
Comments please.........jko
Thpa2d
RICH LAUCHLI AND THOMAS MOSELEY
Rich Lauchli of the Counter Insurgency Council, was one of Robert
DePugh's first deciples. he had finished school in 1945 and spent
about a year in the Army, returning to his home town of Collinsville
where he operated a machine shop. In 1955 he was charged with
manufacturing machine guns without a permit and was fined and
given a suspended sentence in Federal Court.
In 1962 he was the leader of some 60 white querrillas when he
broke with DePugh and the Minutemen and formed the CIC. "to
defend Southern Illinois against communist takeover."
Lauchli and another member of the CIC discovered used bazookas
in a unused barracks at the Madison Proving Grounds in Indiana,
altogether they stole 23 of the weapons. The FBI arrested him
and he recieved another fine and two years probation.
He was indicted latter by a Federal Grand Jury in Springfield, Ill
on charges of making and transporting illegal firearms, conspiracy
and interstate transporting of firearms by a convicted felon.
Lauchli was contacted by a General Joe Camillio from a Latin American
country who said that he was an anti-Castro Cuban who wanted to purchase
guns. Lauchli was quoted as saying that " I've supplied guns to Castro
in the past I've supplied guns to anti-Castro movements. I've been
supplying guns to the Minutemen and indirectly to the John Birch Society"
Lauchil was tried in Springfield in October of 1965. Thomas Moseley, a
Chicago bus driver and part time undercover agent for the Treasury
Department's Alcohol and Tobacco Tax unit (pre ATF) who testified at
Lauchil's trial revealed that the "General" was in fact a U.S. Agent.
Lauchil, was sent to prison this time and was released in February of
1969. Two months later he was again arrested in another raid to his
Collinsville home, where 1,000 Thompson Submachine guns and other large
quanities of various weapons and ammunition were seized.
The above information was from matterial gathered last November gathering
information on the NIC operations in Ohio. This segment appeared in the
November 1969 issue of Saga in the "WHITE BACKLASH Secret Mobilization
of Militant Extremists. It's taken me this long to get around to bringing it
to this newsgroup for discussion.......sorry D.E.B
Thomas Moseley, was also directly connected to the November 1963
arms deal between the 30th of November Movement, which was not fully
investigated by the WC, as a possible connection to the death of JFK.
Was it possible that the FBI and SS did not know of Moseley's connection to the
Treasuray Department or that they were fully aware of Moseley's undercover
role?
comments?
jko
Dave
In article <19980217024...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, thp...@aol.com
says...
Well Jim, you might be on to something. Lauchli was actually a co-founder
of the Minutemen along with DePugh. Lauchli is also of interest because
he knew Frank Sturgis and was arrested in June, 1963 at the Lacombe
training camp near New Orleans. It has been speculated that Banister had
turned this group in.
The following people were arrsted at LACOMBE:
John Koch Gene, Sam Benton, Richard Lauchli, Earl J. Wassem Jr. Ralph Folkerts,
Victor Espinosa, Carlos Eduardo Hernandez Sanchez, Acela Pedros Amores, Miguel
Alvarez Jimenez, Antontio Soto Vasquez, Victor Panque. In response to FBI
queries, Carlos Hernandez took the Fifth Amendment about the dynamite, and said
he was associated with Manuel Artime.
Here's what Sturgis had to tell the Rock Commission:
<QUOTE ON>
Olsen: Let’s move quickly. Did you buy weapons any place else other than at
Alexandria, Virginia?
STURGIS: I think it was Illinois. I went to Illinois with a friend of mine.
Olsen: Do you know the name of the company from which you bought weapons there?
STURGIS: No sir. [Richard Lauchli] I may have something in there that can tell
me the name of the people that I bought them from.
Olsen: Do you know the name of the company from which you bought it?
STURGIS: There was no company.
Olsen: Do you know the name of the city where you went to buy it?
STURGIS: I will have to check that.
Olsen: Any place else besides Illinois?
STURGIS: Yes sir. I am trying to --- in discussing this with you -- these
people belong the Minutemen group.
Olsen: You mean the ones in Illinois?
STURGIS: Yes. And I forgot the name of the man who is head of the Minutemen.
Olsen: DuBois?
STURGIS: Robert DuBois, that is right. [Robert DePugh]
Olsen: From Norborne, Missouri.
STURGIS: Norborne, Missouri, is the other place I went to.
Olsen: Did you also buy some weapons there?
STURGIS: Well, I went to him first, and he in turn sent me to one of his close
partners or aides or what have you, that was in Illinois on a farm that had a
shed full of guns and equipment, mortars, 60 millimeter mortars, 90 millimeter
mortars, the whole works. I bought some equipment from him.
Olsen: Did you buy any equipment anyplace else?
STURGIS: I would think that was the only two people -- yes, I bought the
equipment at National Gun Shop at Southwest 22nd Avenue and 4th Street. I
believe it was. In Miami.
Olsen: Was all of the military equipment that you bought, FRANK, for the Castro
regime essentially in the small arms category?
STURGIS: Yes sir.
Olsen: And ammunition?
STURGIS: Yes sir.
Olsen: And did you buy anything like tanks, armored cars, trucks, jeeps,
anything of that character?
STURGIS: No sir, no heavy stuff.
Roethe: Except the two airplanes?
STURGIS: Just the two aircraft, yes.
Olsen: Did all of this small arms and ammunition that you bought get shipped
over to Cuba, then?
STURGIS: Yes, I shipped it myself, personally, plus we have a network set up of
various means of shipping the equipment to Cuba.
Olsen: Essentially involving revolutionaries in Florida?
STURGIS: Yes, sir.
Olsen: Let’s go back to the period after you got back into this country. You
participated for some time in assisting other Cubans to get out of the country,
and particularly some of the high Air Force officials who you referred to?
<QUOTE OFF>
When Lauchli was arrested, he was in the company of a "Don" Sturgis. Lauchli
went to jail but I never found out what happened to "Don." This info can
be found in Harry Jones' "The Minutemen."
Dave
Thpa2d
>When Lauchli was arrested, he was in the company of a "Don" Sturgis. Lauchli
>went to jail but I never found out what happened to "Don." This info can
>be found in Harry Jones' "The Minutemen."
>
>Dave
Dave: I hope you were still lurking out there, thanks for the reply. Moseley
was
involved in selling machne guns to the 30th of November Movement.
I feel that Lauchli was the source for those weapons.
The reason for the post is that I'm still concerned with the FBI's National
Intelligence
Committee (NIC) aimed at the rightwing. Lauchli seems to be the prime mover
of weapons that can be traced to the Chicago mob operations, Teamsters interest
and there maybe a possible "Ruby" connection. I'm looking into all possible
connections. Thanks for the Sturgis testimony, I didn't have that.
As far as Moseley being connected to the FBI's NIC, I think it is a strong
possiblity,
since it would explain some of the conflict between the regular SS/ FBI
investigation of the assassination and ongoing undercover operations.
I got to get that book......thanks once again
jko
WCAKE
>Subject: Re: THOMAS MOSELEY???D.E.B.????
>From: Dave B...@brown.edu (Dave B)
>Date: Tue, Feb 17, 1998 12:05 EST
>Message-id: <6ccg0j$p...@cocoa.brown.edu>
believed Oswald had tipped RFK and he ordered the FBI to assist the ATF in
raiding a camp that had Hoovers approval.
Walt Cakebread
Thpa2d
>When Lauchli was arrested, he was in the company of a "Don" Sturgis. Lauchli
>went to jail but I never found out what happened to "Don." This info can
>be found in Harry Jones' "The Minutemen."
>
>
Dave: I always wondered if Sturgis had a brother in NY that was connected
to several unions, with a wife that worked for the president of a Teamsters
affiliated union. This "Don" could also have been with Frank in Cuba. In
"Hoffa's Man" it is noted that they sent money to the "Executioner" who
was a union man from NY yet Frank's home was in Va. but held that nickname
in Cuba......because of the one photo at the prison gravesite. It always seem
that Frank Sturgis was everywhere.......if anyone needed a double it was him.
BTW Youngstown, Ohio just made the 10 ten Most Corrupt Cities in America
according to JFK jr's George magizne. Life called it "Crimetown USA" in the
70's.
Keep your eyes open, the corruption may go all the way to Congress, the FBI
and the IRS.......the fhit is going to hit the san.....very soon.
jko
Dave B
In article <19980218033...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, thp...@aol.com
says...
>>went to jail but I never found out what happened to "Don." This info can
>>be found in Harry Jones' "The Minutemen."
>>
>>
>
>to several unions, with a wife that worked for the president of a Teamsters
>affiliated union. This "Don" could also have been with Frank in Cuba. In
>"Hoffa's Man" it is noted that they sent money to the "Executioner" who
>was a union man from NY yet Frank's home was in Va. but held that nickname
>in Cuba......because of the one photo at the prison gravesite. It always seem
>that Frank Sturgis was everywhere.......if anyone needed a double it was him.
I'm not aware of Sturgis/Fiorini having a brother but you never know. Sturgis
and Lauchli got around. Sturgis, as you know, reported sometimes to Bernard
Barker. Barker was on the CIA payroll back in the early sixties. Barker
reported to Hunt.
Lauchli also got around. Here's what a couple of FBI docs had to say:
:
"Rich Albert Lauchli arrived in Miami, Florida, in a Ford Station wagon with a
load of arms for sale. American adventurers and mercenaries HEMMING and STURGIS
took Lauchli around to meet the different Cuban exile leaders in Miami. Lauchli
subsequently sold a .57 mm recoilless rifle to the Second National Front of
Escambray, a Japanese machine gun to American mercenary Bill Garman, two
automatic rifles and two French guns to Ramon Font of Commandos L, and
miscellaneous other equipment to other organizations. MM T-3 explained that
when Lauchli arrived in Miami in June 1963 his station wagon contained .50
caliber machine guns, nine sub-machine guns, automatic rifles and a number of
foreign made weapons. Lauchli sold nearly all of these arms, and at reasonable
prices. MM T-3 explained that Lauchli is more interested in arms sales as a gun
dealer, and he has no emotional feeling about the Cuban exile cause of trying
to overthrow the present government in Cuba." [FBI Miami MM 105-1742] HEMMING
introduced Richard Lauchli to Sam Benton and Victor Espinosa. [FBI
62-109060-7543]
Dave
Dave
In article <19980217213...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, wc...@aol.com
says...
Walt,
You're right. How many camps were there in the area at the time?
There was Laureano Batista's MDC camp...
Dave
>
Thpa2d
On Jan 15th, 1961, Robert John Gentile of Youngstown, Ohio was tried and
sentenced to 30 years in prison for plotting to overthrow Castro.
He was a member of the 28th of January, Patriotic Council of Liberation.
If anyone has information concerning R.J. Gentile or the PCL I would
very much like to exchange information.
R.J. had fought with Castro prior to 1959, but was part of the underground
movement to eliminate Castro that formed shortly after Castro changed
policy and headed for Communist control of Cuba.
He had Mafia, CIA and U.S. Military connections, he may have been connected
to several of the 85 unsolved Mob related bombings in Youngstown, prior to his
joining Castro. During the revolution he was Castro's chief armor and weapons
expert who trained rebels in the use of exposives to derail trains.
Thanks
jko
WCAKE
>Subject: Robert John Gentile 28th of Jan PCL (Cuban group)
>From: thp...@aol.com (Thpa2d)
>Date: Sun, Feb 22, 1998 18:59 EST
>Message-id: <19980222235...@ladder03.news.aol.com>
like a U.S. Army Captain who was executed by Castro for spying...... I believe
his name was Morgan......Could it be the same man ??
Walt
Thpa2d
In article <19980224170...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, wc...@aol.com
(WCAKE) writes:
>James, The description that you give of Robert John Gentile, sounds very much
>like a U.S. Army Captain who was executed by Castro for spying...... I
>believe
>his name was Morgan......Could it be the same man ??
>
>Walt
>
>
Walt: William A. Morgan was a Major in the Second Front, he was from Toledo,
Ohio. Gentile served in Castro's column. Both were connected to the Mayfield
Rd. Mob out of Cleveland and the CIA.
Morgan was already in jail when Gentile was arrested. Morgan was executed in
March of 1961, he walked to the firingline un aided by guards, turned to face
the squad and was killed. Gentile and Morgan were connected to the same
underground movement, but Morgan was not part of early attempts to kill Castro,
but that is
what he was killed for. Gentile managed to escape from prision. Morgan was not
so lucky. BTW Gentile evaded capture by hiding on buses, in full uniform of the
revolutionary forces in broad daylight.
Two mob hitmen from Ohio both fighting with Castro and then part of CIA efforts
to kill Castro. Makes one stop and think since that same mob group sold Castro
4 C-74 cargo planes in 1959. Hoffa lent Castro the money btw....I wonder if
Ferrie was going to fly one of the planes to Cuba......since he was also from
Cleveland.
jko
WCAKE
>Subject: Re: Robert John Gentile 28th of Jan PCL (Cuban group)
>From: thp...@aol.com (Thpa2d)
>Date: Tue, Feb 24, 1998 18:23 EST
>Message-id: <19980224232...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Morgan and I couldn't remember much of his story.
Since he was executed only a month before the BOP do you suppose Castro knew
about the planned attack and uncovered Morgan's role ..........
I'm sure you also know about Castro's capture of a bus load of US Sailors
...... I don't remember much about the incident except it seems that JFK paid
a ransom before Castro would release them.
Regards..... Walt
Larry Hancock
Walt, it certainly seems likely that Castro had some solid
intelligence about the invasion and timing since he rolled
up virtually the entire island CIA and Exile network
immediately before hand and took out a good number of the
internal partisan field forces too. Of course he could have
have anticipated the invasion from the press leaks but his
level of counter intelligence seems to have been awesome.
-- Larry
Thpa2d
Going through my files I uncovered a NYT article from 1959 that may or
may not be of interest for discussion.
The article concerned the 26th of July Movement within the United States
during the January 1959 period.
Senor de la Carrera, first name unknown, was the coordinator of a "very
strict committee of discipline". Carrera was connected to a "unknown"
(name not given in article) Cuban motion picture chain manager.
Carrera, the unknown Cuban, and a real estate developer Herberto Gonzalez,
took over the operation of the Cuban NYC Consulate under the direction of
the 26th of July Movements "Committee in Exhile" in Miami.
The question of the ownership of the Texas Theater and its operation came
to mind. Has anyone looked into the ownership and operations of the Texas
Theater as it could relate to Cuba?
Since LHO was arrested there is possible that it was a Cuban operations
meeting place.......IF there was a Cuban connection in any manner.
I would like to read comments on any view of a Cuban/Texas Theater
connection.
jko
Thpa2d
In article <19980226214...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, wc...@aol.com
(WCAKE) writes:
>>
>Thanks for posting that info Jim...... It's been many years since I read
>about Morgan and I couldn't remember much of his story.
>
>Since he was executed only a month before the BOP do you suppose Castro knew
>about the planned attack and uncovered Morgan's role ..........
>I'm sure you also know about Castro's capture of a bus load of US Sailors
>...... I don't remember much about the incident except it seems that JFK
>paid a ransom before Castro would release them.
>
>Regards..... Walt
Walt:
sorry about the delay in response
Morgan is a key character in my film script "Cuban Shadows" that
I have been working on of late. He is a very interesting character. Both
Morgan and Gentile in my opinion were connected to the insider planning
in Cuba for the BOP invasion.
R.J. Gentile, who has not been "offically" connected to the Bay of Pigs,
was however released from prison as part of the BOP ransom release.
I had been under the impression that he had escaped prison, but have
recently learned that his release was "attached" to the release of the
members of the Cuban Invasion force. I have to check further but I
believe that a total of "4 extras" were released. Morgan had been shot,
so chances are he was a major player in the Cuban side of things.
Gentile managed to avoid capture much longer then Morgan.
The seziure of the unarmed military bus load of troops going on liberty was
Raul
Castro's operation. I'm not sure about a "ransom" but they were released.
jko
Steve Bochan
When the theatre had the recent fire, news stories reported that it was
owned and operated once by Howard Hughes, then the United Artist Theatre
Circuit.
You may be correct however that in recent years, it was privately owned
and operated, but I seem to recall that in the '60s it was the UA
circuit. I could be wrong, I'll check it out ...
STEVE
Thpa2d
>You may be correct however that in recent years, it was privately owned
>and operated, but I seem to recall that in the '60s it was the UA
>circuit. I could be wrong, I'll check it out ...
>
>STEVE
>
>
>
Steve: I believe that UA had alot of trouble in the 50's due to McCarthy,
steming
from Chaplin, since he founded UA. If any remote connection to any Cuban
group or operation can be established to the TT it would be very interesting.
IF LHO had been part of a Cuban connection, and needed to contact others, it
would make sense for him to head to a "safe place" such as a theater or
library.
Both were in the area and both are a matter of interest. If he knew he was
expected, he could have just walked in, expecially if he knew that it was ok
and
a ticket was not needed, since he was not there for the movie or popcorn. In
any case if he entered to hide, he would have bought a ticket.....regardless of
the sounds of the police cars. He was too cool of a character, to panic because
of a shoe salesman.
Based on the actions of LHO, either he expected to be arrested, or he was
fully caught by surprise, it is too close to tell based on the conflicts in the
arrest stories.
thanks for the response........jko
Thpa2d
Finally found the first planning session for a Second Invasion of Cuba. This
time by US Forces. In support of this National Security Action Memorandum
#54 to the Sec of Def from Bundy gives JFK's approval to start a Cuban
Volunteers training program connected to the U.S. Armed Forces.
Here is the first Memo for the Record on the invasion planning that outlines
the U.S. role:
255. Memorandum for the Record
Washington, August 16, 1961.
//Source: Kennedy Library, National Security Files, Countries Series, Cuba,
General, 6/61-12/61. Top Secret. Prepared by Komer. Another copy of this
memorandum has a handwritten notation that indicates the briefing was for
President Kennedy, General Taylor, and McGeorge Bundy. (Ibid., Subjects,
Guantanamo Base, 8/16/61-10/4/63)
SUBJECT
JCS Briefing on Cuban Contingency Planning
The briefing was given by Captain Hadden USN, with General Dean backing up.
I. Contingency Planning Against Violence at Guantanamo Base
It was stated that this plan/1/ had approval of DOD, State and the President.
It calls for response appropriate to character of attack. CINCLANT has
interpreted this to include returning fire as appropriate if anyone shoots at
US, and extending the base perimeter as required. In other words the Base
Commander is now authorized to protect himself to the extent necessary,
including going out and silencing guns in the hills if they are shooting at
him. He doesn't have to check with anybody before he does so. Query--Do we want
to leave him this authority? (Wym Coerr says anti-Castro Cubans are reportedly
thinking of faking attack on base in order to embroil US.)
/1/None of the plans cited in the memorandum has been further identified.
Water supply seems well in hand; with austere use local stores could last three
weeks. By this time tankers available on short notice could bring in more.
There are 3100 non-military personnel, mostly depend-ents, on the base. A
Marine BLT (1500) afloat is never more than 48 hours away, and usually closer.
II. Contingency Plan for Response to Cuban Provocation Leading to Open
Hostilities
In this case CINCLANT will (a) defend Guantanamo; (b) support or re-establish a
Cuban government friendly to US; (c) restore and maintain order. The
progression of events would be blockade, then reinforcement of Guantanamo,
finally air and amphibious attack.
Force tabs include 15,500 Marines and a 9000-man Marine air wing; 23,000 Army,
mainly 18th Airborne Corps (82nd Airborne Division and an infantry brigade); a
naval covering force, and an air task force including fighters and troop
carrier wings.
III. Alternative Contingency Plan for Larger-scale Action
JCS also have a plan which is based on a concept of generating forces far
beyond Cuban capabilities to resist. This plan in effect calls for overthrowing
the Castro government by an overwhelming land, sea and air operation. It
includes the above forces plus substantial add-ons, e.g. a total of 53,000 Army
troops (two airborne divisions plus) and overwhelming air strength. JCS
estimate these forces could take all of Cuba within ten days and secure it in
five days more (though of course guerrillas in hills would take longer to
flush).
Reaction Time Needed. Both plans are now based on 18 days total response time
from date of decision. However, some forces can be generated much more rapidly:
4-24 hours--can get a 1500 man BLT to Guantanamo.
24 hours--could drop 2 airborne battle groups supported by 7 DDs and 4 fighter
squadrons.
48 hours--11,800 man task force of 4 battle groups, backed by 2 carriers, 36
destroyers, and 8 fighter squadrons.
5 days--2 airborne divisions with 23,000 men.
15-18 days--sealift elements come in. Up to this point the forces dropped lack
heavy equipment for offensive punch. It (tanks, etc.) comes in by sea and US
forces then move out to occupy Cuba.
Assumptions are that the necessary base rights and overflight clearances have
been gotten (one airbase in Bahamas is essential and we are checking with UK on
it); forces from Puerto Rico must fly over Haiti and Dominican Republic.
All of the above plans are for unilateral US action. Though the JCS hope there
would be some OAS support, the underlying thought behind both plans was to be
ready to do something overwhelming soon. In this case sizable OAS forces would
only slow us down, though the plans do contemplate token contributions.
Query--Shouldn't we have alternate plans based on substantial LA contribution,
so that in case we want to make it an OAS rather than strictly US operation,
we'll have some idea of how to fair [phase?] the LA's in?
Above plans call for only conventional weapons. They are based on immediate
neutralization of whatever Cuban air strength exists so no requirement exists
for nuclears (it would be a political disaster anyway). There are CIA and
military government annexes, but no use of Cuban forces is contemplated. No
Soviet reaction is assumed.
One weakness in the plans is that the military will be prepared only to provide
five days support for the indigenous personnel, i.e. Cubans in occupied areas.
Obviously after five days we will have an awful lot of Cubans to care for. The
plan merely says this would be responsibility of the State Department!
R. W. Komer
Thpa2d
In article <eDY92hK...@nih2naab.prod2.compuserve.com>, Larry Hancock
<74774...@CompuServe.COM> writes:
Larry: When you consider the airstrikes two days before the landing of
troops, it did not take a military genius to consider a possible ground
invasion was coming.
I just downloaded a file on Castro's comments about the invasion and
the mistakes that the invasion force made. I will try and post it under
another thread.
jko
Larry Hancock
I'd totally agree with you about the lack of surprize...not
exactly up to the normal "covert" standards.
But it seems like he must have had great intel to have
targeted so many folks for a quick pick up and
nutralization...no aid at all for the men on the beach.
Thpa2d
In article <Ok7lgjK...@ntawwabp.compuserve.com>, Larry Hancock
<74774...@CompuServe.COM> writes:
> But it seems like he must have had great intel to have
> targeted so many folks for a quick pick up and
> nutralization...no aid at all for the men on the beach.
>
>
Castro's intell operations were based on fear, they were basically the
same tactics used by Batista, however Castro had more public support.
A good deal of those arrested were not connnected to the underground
or part of the invasion plans. By estimate only, there were less then
3,000 engaged in any operations connected to the overthrow attempt
in any manner. I have been working on the internal Cuban underground
structure as part of a new script and found about 6 groups of interest
but do not have total figures of membership......as it stands now the
count is not high in any group. There was no Batista supporter movement
other then effort of Massferrer, who was operating out of the US. The
former Batista officals in Cuba were not organized much at all.
jko
Thpa2d
This post never made it to the newsgroup so I will try again:
On 8 July 1961, LHO appeared at the Embassy without warning.
This is one of those odd connections of interest.
243. Memorandum of Conversation
Washington, July 7, 1961.
//Source: Department of State, Central Files, 737.00/7-761. Confidential.
Drafted by Hurwitch on July 14.
SUBJECT
Activities in U.S. of Fair Play for Cuba Committee and 26th of July Movement
PARTICIPANTS
Mr. James McDonnell, SCA
Mr. Robert Hurwitch, ARA:CMA/C
I had previously mentioned to Mr. McDonnell ARA's concern over the activities
in the U.S. of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the 26th of July Movement.
I had observed that while these activities appeared to be primarily of internal
security concern, there were foreign policy implications as well. Unlimited
activity on the part of these groups served to confuse the American public
about the true nature of the Castro regime. Further, Cuban exile groups had
expressed concern over these activities as counter-productive to their own
efforts to impress the American public with the dangerous threat that Castro
presented. I had inquired whether the Attorney General's office was fully aware
of the Department's interest in these groups.
In response to this inquiry, Mr. McDonnell consulted with the Office of the
Assistant Attorney General, Internal Security Division. Mr. McDonnell reported
that that office was keenly aware of public, Congressional and governmental
interest in the activities of these groups. The Internal Security Division is
following these activities on a day-to-day basis, compiling evidence with a
view toward citing these organizations. The registration of the FPCC had
already been solicited by that office and had been refused by the FPCC. The
Internal Security Division is now examining its information on the FPCC to
determine whether to seek court action to force the FPCC to register.
Comment:
In view of the close and constant attention being paid to both these groups by
the Assistant Attorney General's office and Mr. McDonnell's oral transmission
of the Department's interest as well, there does not appear any necessity at
this time to stimulate the Attorney General's office to further action in this
regard.
***************************
Any comments or interest in discussion?
Michael Parks
In article <19980304000...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, thp...@aol.com says...
>
Jim, the TT was first opened on 4/21/31 and at one point was owned by H. Hughes. UA took it
over at a later date and it was purchased by Ron and Don Dubois in the mid 1990s. Have no more
on it. Sorry.
Michael Parks
Thpa2d
In article <6drtsk$9if$1...@newshost.cyberramp.net>, mpa...@cyberramp.net (Michael
Parks) writes:
>TT was first opened on 4/21/31 and at one point was owned by H. Hughes. UA
>took it over at a later date and it was purchased by Ron and Don Dubois in the
mid
>1990s. Have no more on it. Sorry.
>
>Michael Parks
>
Michael: What are you sorry for? You provide factual data to those needing it.
BTW I got the last package on the Armstrong data today.
I will have to recheck the leaders of the 26th of July Movement in the US to
find the name of that motion picture chain manager. But I will bet a un-pulled
molar,
one of two that I own, thanks LBJ, that there is some Cuban connection to the
TT.
jko
Michael Parks
In article <19980307220...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, thp...@aol.com says...
=>Michael: What are you sorry for? You provide factual data to those needing it.
=>BTW I got the last package on the Armstrong data today.
=>
=>I will have to recheck the leaders of the 26th of July Movement in the US to
=>find the name of that motion picture chain manager. But I will bet a un-pulled
=>molar,
=>one of two that I own, thanks LBJ, that there is some Cuban connection to the
=>TT.
=>
=>jko
I'm sorry that I have no more info on this key topic. Keep stroking, buddy.
MP
Thpa2d
In two of my film scripts "Maggie's Farm" and "Cuban Shadows" I use aspects
of the second phase of Operation Mongoose to provide the details of LHO's
involvement concerning Cuba and the death of JFK.
Phase II contained 56 seperate actions to be carried out under the control of
the CIA, the State Department, USIA, and the Department of Defense. Each
agency would control specific actions, either alone or in connection with other
agencies concerned. The one major action controled by Defense concerned
US invasion plans in case of war, with or over Cuba. (Activity 51)
The CIA controled 24 actions, the State Department controled 15 and USIA
controled 9. The ones I use however are the six that to this day remain,
undisclosed. Since the control agency is not declassified they remain under
the control of the EOP, since the EOP operations were the WH links to these
activities.
The plans for these six actions could only be for the eyes only of a select few
of
individuals connected......JFK, RFK and Gen Lansdale are the top three and
they would be informed on each of these six operations. All others connected
would not know the complete operation in detail. The last guy in the chain
would
know very little or even who they actually worked for. I do not place LHO at
the
very end of the chain, but there are very few below him.
Of the six actions, two #25 and #33 are not prime considerations, but the
operations
of #38, 40, 42 and 43 are of major consideration. Each of these plans may have
had
seven seperate activities, if they are in fact "Domestic Operations" as I
believe
they are. This is based on a detailed study of historical events connected to
Cuba,
and domestic operations in seven major U.S. cities. In order of importance:
1. NYC
2. The Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown triangle
(Soviet number one nuclear target area)
3. Miami
4. New Orleans
5. Chicago
6. Dallas
7. Los Angeles
All four of the above Mongoose activities are connected to Activity #34.
Which I will post following this intro. The historical actions of LHO can
be linked in some manner to all five of the agency's connected. LHO
can be linked to major operatives in several of the Operation Mongoose
activities and all these actions were in the interest of National Security.
LHO can be linked to two of the seven cities in connection to Cuban
actions.
#34 follows
jko
Thpa2d
>> 3/8/98 15:56
399. Memorandum From the Chief of Operations, Operation Mongoose (Lansdale) to
the Special Group (Augmented)
Washington, August 31, 1962.
//Source: Kennedy Library, National Security Files, Meetings and Memoranda
Series, Special Group (Augmented), Operation Mongoose, 8/62. Top Secret;
Sensitive; Noforn; Special Handling. An attached distribution list indicates
that 21 copies of the memorandum were prepared and sent to Robert Kennedy,
Taylor, Johnson, Gilpatric, Lemnitzer, McCone, Bundy, Rusk, McNamara, Murrow,
Hurwitch, General Johnson, Harvey, and Wilson. Lansdale kept seven copies.
SUBJECT
Phase II, Operation Mongoose
Pursuant to your instructions, transmitted herewith is a proposed projection of
actions to be undertaken as Phase II, Operation Mongoose. This projection
incorporates the suggestions of the operations team designated by the major
departments and agencies charged with Mongoose planning and implementation.
Activity: 34. Spot, recruit, and train legally established Cubans in Cuba or in
Cuban Government Posts abroad. (CIA, supported by State and Defense)
Purpose: The purpose of all activities under this objective is to provide
maximum intelligence coverage of Cuba with particular emphasis on the
following:
a. Capabilities and intentions of the Castro Government.
b. Soviet activities in Cuba including details of Soviet military personnel,
units, locations, capabilities, et al.
c. Activities of Cuban G-2.
d. Military and militia order of battle and morale.
e. State of resistance including the tone and temper of the population.
f. Focus of power and/or stress and strain among the "Power Centers" in the
Cuban Government.
g. Evidence of Cuban subversive activities in the hemisphere.
In addition to meeting the above cited intelligence objectives, operational
intelligence, and recruitment leads as well as agent material result from the
Opa-locka [less than 1 line of source text not declassified] operations. In
addition to meeting basic intelligence requirements above, timely operational
intelligence is vital to CIA current operations.
Considerations: When possible they will be recruited and trained while visiting
outside Cuba; however when necessary recruitment and training will be done
inside Cuba either by established agents or by agents infiltrated especially
for the task. Whether this is done unilaterally or jointly with a third country
intelligence organization is determined on a case by case basis.
In some cases the travel as generated specifically by CIA; in other cases the
travels can be utilized to meet intelligence requirements.
This activity was the base of #38, 40, 42, 43. It is my opinion that these were
domestic operations and tie major aspects of the actions of all concerned
dealing with Cuba including LHO.
jko
David Wimp
To whom was Bobby Kennedy supposed to have said soon after the
assassination, "One of your guys did it"?
I have downloaded the Cuba documents from the state department. I
have not gone over them in great detail, but it seems that coverage of
the Special Group meetings seems to get very sparse around June, 1963.
Am I just not looking in the right places? In particular, there were
meetings 6/3 and 6/19 that are of particular interest, but they did not
seem to be covered.
--
Dave
It's much easier to get smart people to act stupid than it is to get
stupid people to act smart.
Thpa2d
In article <3509EAFC...@ix.netcom.com>, David Wimp
<joli...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> I have downloaded the Cuba documents from the state department. I
>have not gone over them in great detail, but it seems that coverage of
>the Special Group meetings seems to get very sparse around June, 1963.
>Am I just not looking in the right places? In particular, there were
>meetings 6/3 and 6/19 that are of particular interest, but they did not
>seem to be covered.
>
>--
>Dave
>
>
The June 3 to June 19 period is of great interest. The following is not taken
from the SD docs but are some key dates of interest during this period.
Hope they help. I would very much like to discuss the dates of interest
that you have and the reason why. I believe that Mongoose actions of
June 1963, will not be found in released docs, I feel that the actions
#38, 40, 42, 43 cover the period of June through November and concern
the death of JFK.
June 2.....Cuba executes Santiago de Las Vegas.
June 3.... LHO sets up the New Orleans chapter of FPCC
June 4..... Citizens Committee for a Free Cuba urges liberation of Cuba
"by all necessaary means"
June 13...10 exhiles return to Miami from raid, detained by US, two Cuban
captured my be alllowed to return.
June 15...A.J Hidel signs LHO's membership card.
LHO sends membership card to Gus Hall and Ben Davis
June 16...Former Harvard student tells of his role in A. Roake raid on
Cuba.
June 19 (?).....JFK, meets with Cubans in Los Angeles.
June 21 Revolutionary Council reports cammando's have landed in Cuba,
US arrests 5 men at training camp in Miami.
June 23 Maceo resigns as council president.
June 24...LHO applies for new passport.
June 29....de Varona elected president of Revolutionary Council.
June 29....70 students accept offer to travel to Cuba all expenses paid by
Cuba.
I was going to tally up all the days in 1963, that we have no idea what LHO
was doing, but have not gotton around to it. Besides several books with
timeline
information, I use yearbook and the NYT index on Cuba for each year of
interest.
I have been trying to match published accounts of Cuban actions with Mongoose
docs. All activities did not stop when Mongoose ended, they were kept in
motion until they were played out. Those concerning LHO and any Dallas plot
for ANY Cuban connected activity are difficult to pinpoint. However, a clear
picture of the progression of events can be seen if one takes the time to do
abit
of cross checking.
Thanks for the response, everyone who has any interest should download those
SD documents, as well as the CIA IG report. I did not have all the documents
needed to support some of my research, but the gap was decreased a great
deal by examination of those docs.
jko
Bill J Elwood
In <19980314145...@ladder01.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
I'd be glad to provide you some sites...but you still owe me some
information(BE).
Thpa2d
In article <6ee8dk$k...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
J Elwood) writes:
>
>I'd be glad to provide you some sites...but you still owe me some
>information(BE).
>
>
From the tone of your last email.......material that I have is beyond your
crasp of how it can help you in your search for answers your fathers death.
I'm not actively engaged in your search, I sent material that I had on file
during my editing of my files. I've explained that I have a large amount of
editing to do, which comes first and explained when I come across those
files that I feel may help you I will send, which I have for about a year now.
I OWE you nothing, I called in several favors with the Pa State Police to
attempt to get information and have in my opinion tried to help. You can
take your "blackmail" and shove it or you can share the information with
us all but don't expect me to delay my work, I have a 26th of March deadline,
which I explained to you.
jko
Bill J Elwood
In <19980314191...@ladder03.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
I have neither intent nor desire to interrupt your work. Blackmail?
Surely you gest.(BE).
Thpa2d
In article <6eglmm$7...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
J Elwood) writes:
>
>I have neither intent nor desire to interrupt your work. Blackmail?
>Surely you gest.(BE).
>
>
>
Then why not post the information? I started this thread because I wanted
opinions and views. You offered to provide locations of information, but
on a condition, that's a form of blackmail that I don't think was needed.
I don't like to play games and have tried to share information or opinion,
I do not consider that anyone "owes" anyone anything on this newsgroup.
jko
Glenn T. Cressy
I would like to add another meeting to your list. It was held Sep 12,
1963. It's entitled Minutes of Cuban Coordinating Committee Meeting 12 Sep
63. It was posted in the Kennedy Archives under Record Series: Church
Com. - Agency File Number 7603756. The subject was: DOD, Anti-Castro
Activities, Cuban Exiles, Clandestine Operations. This material was
written by none other than Alexander Haig..
Thpa2d <thp...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980314145...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Bill J Elwood
elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
provided me:
"Bad news:
I must explain here that based on information that you supplied, which
was to general, my contact refused to supply any information. I do not
know you, so I could not vouch for you, the dates, times and other
facts were not supplied by you concerning the death of your father.
There is a phone number that he provided to me to start you on a valid
search for information. It will not be the only phone number that you
need. You will have to contact higher hdqters for the info on CIA/FBI.
He (my contact) would not even consider looking into the matter since
he is a undercover officer and does not feel comfortable with this at
all. Here is the phone number that you should call, explain what you
want and follow through from there.
PSP Wsh 412 223 5200. This is Penna State Police Personnel, they will
assist you to the best of thier ability. But you may have to do things
in person.
Good luck.........jko"
This number is the phone number of the Washington Barracks of the
Pennsylvania Police. When I called the number and discovered that it
was not the number as you described it above, I chose not to invest
anymore money in long distance phone calls on dead-end information. I
also chose not to embarass you by mentioning it to you. If, as you
state, you had to call in favors from undercover agents who are afraid
to blow thier cover, you might want to re-consider your sources of
information because I fail to see how you could possibly owe someone a
favor for the above information. I spoke extensively and freely with
more than one Pennsylvania State Trooper, last summer, and not one of
them implied that I owed them anything...they volunteered to speak
freely with me(BE).
Bill J Elwood
In <19980315153...@ladder01.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>
>In article <6eglmm$7...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
>J Elwood) writes:
>
>>
>>I have neither intent nor desire to interrupt your work. Blackmail?
>>Surely you gest.(BE).
>>
>>
>>
>
>Then why not post the information? I started this thread because I
wanted
>opinions and views. You offered to provide locations of information,
but
>on a condition, that's a form of blackmail that I don't think was
needed.
>I don't like to play games and have tried to share information or
opinion,
>I do not consider that anyone "owes" anyone anything on this
newsgroup.
>
>jko
I was in the process of sifting through about 100 or so different files
relative to the thread. Your comments have deflated any interest I have
in sharing this information in this thread. You have stated that you
have information that suggests that there were two brothers who were
involved in the murder of my father...but you are too busy to go look
it up. Then you accuse me of blackmail because I chose not to assist
you with your deadline. You are quite a piece of work(BE)...
Bill J Elwood
In <19980315153...@ladder01.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>
>In article <6eglmm$7...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
>J Elwood) writes:
>
>>
>>I have neither intent nor desire to interrupt your work. Blackmail?
>>Surely you gest.(BE).
>>
>>
>>
>
>Then why not post the information? I started this thread because I
wanted
>opinions and views. You offered to provide locations of information,
but
>on a condition, that's a form of blackmail that I don't think was
needed.
>I don't like to play games and have tried to share information or
opinion,
>I do not consider that anyone "owes" anyone anything on this
newsgroup.
>
>jko
"June, 1963" I got blitzed with file listings that are related to about
a zillion different things. I have finally been able to load this file
from my notebook file in windows. This is only one I collected. The
dates you posed questions about; June 3 and June 19, 1963 have reports
of activity that may interest the reader of this thread.
HEMMING: JUNE 1963
FBI Agent Robert Dwyer reported that in June 1963 HEMMING met
Michael Roland Marino, "an American who has dealt with the Cubans
before on arms sales. Mike Marino had a small quantity of arms and
HEMMING planned to rob them. HEMMING devised a plan, and on June 19,
1963, met with Marino at diner in Miami and negotiated an arms
purchase. Mike Marino took four of HEMMING'S men to a Cuban's
residence to show a .50 caliber machine gun offered for sale. HEMMING
and another man later arrived at the residence, where HEMMING and his
men drew their guns on Mike Marino and the Cuban living there and
robbed them of uniforms, ammunition magazines, miscellaneous types of
guns and the .50 caliber machine gun. Then HEMMING changed his mind
and gave all this equipment back to the Cuban, Carlos Zarraca.
HEMMING'S men took Mike Morino to Mike Morino's house to rob him, and
HEMMING was to meet them there later. HEMMING lost contact with his
group, and then found out that U.S. Customs agents had just raided
Carlos Zarracha's house, confiscated all the arms, and had arrested
Mike Morino and four of his abductors. On June 20, 1963, United
States
Customs Agents advised they confiscated a .37 mm anti-tank gun, a .20
mm cannon, a rifle, 300 rounds of ammunition and miscellaneous
military equipment. Incidental to this raid, the Alcohol and Tobacco
Tax Unit that day seized a 1963 Ford Falcon automobile, seven rifles,
a .20 mm gun mount, some pistols, miscellaneous equipment and several
hundred rounds of ammunition. Mr. Wallace Shanley, advised ROY
HARGRAVES, Joe Garman, Justin Wilson, Michael Morino and Richard
Whatley were arrested for possession of a machine gun." The
defendants
were represented by Charles Ashmann and Robert Rust. [FBI 2-1693-95;
USDC Miami 63-404-Cr-CF]
On September 30, 1963, the SAC of the Miami FBI office sent a LHM,
which was highly deleted, to FBI Headquarters regarding HEMMING: "On
September 13, 1963, Wallace Shanley, U.S. Customs, Miami, advised
that
Richard Watley was one of the five arrested on June 20, 1963, by U.S.
Customs, and charged with being in possession of a machine gun. This
incident was a matter involving HEMMING'S plans to rob Mike Marino of
weapons reportedly stored (deleted). At the time of his arrest,
(deleted) but his fingerprints reflected his true identity and that
he
was also wanted as a parole violator from some other state. He was
unable to make bond and the judge ordered a sanity hearing being
given
to Watley. On September 9, 1963, he went to trial at U.S. District
Court, Miami, and on September 10, 1963, he was found not guilty.
(Deleted) advised that the other four individuals are scheduled for
trial on October 22, 1963. These individuals are presently out on
bond." HEMMING told this researcher: "That's the Mike Marino caper.
Customs and ATF snitches had conned Richard Lauchli out of a bunch of
arms." HEMMING stated that Steve Justin Wilson died in 1986. The
prosecution dropped the charges against Richard Whatley, and in
October 1963, the case against the other members was also dropped. On
June 6, 1963, Carlos Prio Soccarras said that he would sponsor a
military camp, and that HEMMING would head it. Final arrangements
were
to be made 20 days hence. [HSCA OCR 6.21.78 Martin J. Daly]
HEMMING: JULY 1963
"HSCA Outside Contact Report June 21, 1978. Identifying
Information: Name Whatley, Richard (FBI File Review). Summary of
contact: "The file on the above Subject, listed under the following
numbers: 109-584; Section 61, serials 3739-3781, 3742 ep 23 was
reviewed by the undersigned. The report dated September 30, 1963, and
is titled INTERPEN. A confidential source MMT-1 indicates that
HEMMING
visited on June 6, 1963, Carlos Prio Soccarras at 5070 Alton Road,
Miami Beach, Florida. Prio stated that he would sponsor a military
training camp and that HEMMING would head it. Final details of the
arrangements were to be made 20 days hence. On July 11, 1963, MM T-1
advised that HEMMING left Miami on July 3, 1963, and arrived in
Dallas
on July 4, 1963, where he conferred with General Edwin A. Walker who
would not back any specific cause as he wanted to remain free to
fight
communism all over the United States. Following this meeting HEMMING
then met with Lester Logue, geologist and oil man at the firm's
office, 628 Meadows Building, Dallas, Texas. Logue told him that he
had a (6-8) six to eight man group which is interested in fighting
against communism but that he, Logue, could not participate as he
couldn't afford to offend U.S. Government officials. Logue further
states that he was working with a major in the United States Army
Reserve, both of whom were do for future promotion and that shortly
they would be attending an intelligence briefing in Washington, D.C.
and that when they returned and briefed Logue they would then be in a
position to help HEMMING in some way. Logue said that he would visit
Miami, Florida, in about 10 days and set up an intelligence unit,
send
some men to handle the funds and also personally see some people
about
donating boats to HEMMING'S anti-Castro movement in Miami. Martin J.
Daly." On January 26, 1996, HEMMING was asked by this researcher,
"Who
was with you when you visited Prio, General Walker and Lester Logue?"
He answered, "Howard Kenneth Davis."Howard K. Davis related: "I think
I probably talked to O'Conner once or twice, or maybe three times.
Now
Ed Kolby knew him very well."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---
There are many more files like this there, with tesimony and dates as
requested(BE).
Bill J Elwood
In <19980315153...@ladder01.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>
>In article <6eglmm$7...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
>J Elwood) writes:
>
>>
>>I have neither intent nor desire to interrupt your work. Blackmail?
>>Surely you gest.(BE).
>>
>>
>>
>
>Then why not post the information? I started this thread because I
wanted
>opinions and views. You offered to provide locations of information,
but
>on a condition, that's a form of blackmail that I don't think was
needed.
>I don't like to play games and have tried to share information or
opinion,
>I do not consider that anyone "owes" anyone anything on this
newsgroup.
>
>jko
This piece of information is page 68 of 112 in nodule 12 on the
"WEBERMAN.COM" Webpage. It appears to relate to the request for
information posted in this thread earlier.
RICHARD A. LAUCHLI
Richard Lauchli sold the dynamite to Sam Benton and Victor
Espinosa for the June 15, 1963 raid. MM T-3 advised on June 14, 1963
"Rich Albert Lauchli arrived in Miami, Florida, in a Ford Station
wagon with a load of arms for sale. American adventurers and
mercenaries HEMMING and STURGIS took Lauchli around to meet the
different Cuban exile leaders in Miami. Lauchli subsequently sold a
.57 mm recoilless rifle to the Second National Front of Escambray, a
Japanese machine gun to American mercenary Bill Garman, two automatic
rifles and two French guns to Ramon Font of Commandos L, and
miscellaneous other equipment to other organizations. MM T-3
explained
that when Lauchli arrived in Miami in June 1963 his station wagon
contained .50 caliber machine guns, nine sub-machine guns, automatic
rifles and a number of foreign made weapons. Lauchli sold nearly all
of these arms, and at reasonable prices. MM T-3 explained that
Lauchli
is more interested in arms sales as a gun dealer, and he has no
emotional feeling about the Cuban exile cause of trying to overthrow
the present government in Cuba." [FBI Miami MM 105-1742] HEMMING
introduced Richard Lauchli to Sam Benton and Victor Espinosa. [FBI
62-109060-7543] HEMMING claimed it was not him, but someone in "the
Bureau or Customs."
THE ATTEMPTS TO BOB THE SHELL OIL REFINERY IN HAVANA
NEW ORLEANS JULY 1963
In early July 1963, a FBI informant in the DRE advised that
Sam Benton had 2,500 pounds of dynamite hidden in Mississippi, and
wanted to obtain B-24 aircraft for a new strategy against the oil
refineries that involved the DRE. This joint Christian Democratic
Movement-DRE operation was scheduled to take place in August 1963.
The
FBI released a document in 1984 that described the DRE airstrip near
the camp. Two aircraft were scheduled to take off from this strip,
then bomb Havana's oil refineries. The document noted that the only
other "group in New Orleans which appears to have sufficient
organization to attempt such an adventure is the Cuban Revolutionary
Council headed by Frank Bartes." [FBI 2-1821-10]
THE RAID
A house in LaCombe, Louisiana, stored dynamite to be used on
a
bombing raid against the Shell oil refineries in Havana. HEMMING told
this researcher: "Richard Lauchli was supposed to prepare the fucking
fuses. He hadn't even started working the deal." On July 31, 1963,
FBI
agents raided the house in LaCombe. The search warrant had been based
on the affidavit of S.A. DeBRUEYS. The FBI reported: "It is noted
that
we received information from Miami, Florida, source on July 18, 1963,
that Acelo Pedroso, former Cuban pilot, had gone to New Orleans about
July 16, 1963, to check some bombs allegedly to be used on bombing
raid over Cuba. Pedroso, upon interview July 19, 1963, admitted
traveling to New Orleans with two Cubans and being taken to a house
in
the New Orleans area where some bombs, fuses and dynamite were
located. The bombs were not suitable for use on bombing mission.
Pedroso voluntarily accompanied Miami Agent to New Orleans on July
30,
1963, and identified house which had been pin-pointed by New Orleans
Office agents, as house where munitions were stored. On July 31,
1963,
representative of our New Orleans office, which authorized search
warrant, searched residence located in St. Tammany Parish, Louisiana,
owned by William Julius McLaney, 4213 Encampment Street, New Orleans,
Louisiana...There are no references in the OSWALD case to any of the
Subjects of the seizure matter. We have no indication that OSWALD had
any connection with it." [FBI 62-109060-4760] The FBI also reported
that Pedrosa stated that "Two B-26 airplanes were located some
distance from New Orleans, possibly in the Houston area, although
Pedrosa was not certain of this. After Pedrosa approved the equipment
to be used in this raid, he was to call his pilot friend in Miami,
who
would arrange for the plane to be flown to an airstrip located about
ten miles from the house where the bombs are located. After the bombs
were loaded, the planes would take off for the bombing mission to
Cuba. It was indicated to Pedrosa this operation would be a one time
deal, and to avoid any problems with the U.S. authorities, the planes
would not be returned to the U.S. but proceed to an unknown
destination or be ditched in the ocean. (Deleted), whose identity
should be protected, confidentially advised the Miami Division that
he
believed one of the pilots on this mission to be Antonio Soto
Vasquez,
a Cuban exile and former Air Force pilot, who had participated in the
Bay of Pigs invasion, and who is a good friend of Pedrosa." HEMMING
told this researcher: "They didn't have B-25's. They had a
Twin-Beech.
They were going to roll the bombs out of the fucking door. Show me
the
fucking document." The FBI reported: "(Deleted), whose identity
should
be protected, advised the Miami Division on July 5, 1963, that
several
days prior to June 15, 1963, he was contacted by Victor Espinosa in
connection with a proposition that (Deleted) pilot a twin engine
Beechcraft airplane on a bombing mission against Cuba. Espinosa
disclosed at that time that Mike McLaney had supplied the money and
Beechcraft airplane to be used in the raid...Frank Bartes, advised on
September 26, 1963, he met Rene and Victor Espinosa in Coral Gables,
Florida, in June 1963. They told Bartes they had previously been
picked-up by Federal authorities for attempting to bomb an oil
refinery in Cuba. Bartes advised that neither Rene, nor Victor
Espinosa, mentioned having any explosives in Louisiana. Bartes denied
any knowledge of a cache of explosives at the residence of William J.
McLaney and denied knowing William McLaney or his brother Mike.
Bartes
also denied knowledge of any plans by anyone to bomb Cuba...By letter
dated January 3, 1964, the Internal Security Division, U.S.
Department
of Justice, advised that since the plan of the Subjects to undertake
an aerial attack on Cuba was effectively thwarted by the seizure of
the material criminal action in this matter was not being
contemplated
at that time." [NARA FBI 124-10236-10075]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---
The above came from the WEBERMAN.COM Website, this is nodule 12 page
68. It appears to fit the context of the request for information about
June of 1963(BE).
Thpa2d
In article <01bd5054$0d508e60$2f04...@gtcressy.pacifier.com>, "Glenn T.
Cressy" <gtcr...@pacifier.com> writes:
>
>I would like to add another meeting to your list. It was held Sep 12,
>1963. It's entitled Minutes of Cuban Coordinating Committee Meeting 12 Sep
>63. It was posted in the Kennedy Archives under Record Series: Church
>Com. - Agency File Number 7603756. The subject was: DOD, Anti-Castro
>Activities, Cuban Exiles, Clandestine Operations. This material was
>written by none other than Alexander Haig..
>
>
THANKS........I had more June dates of interest, but have been working on them
the ones posted were ones handy.
Although a plot to kill Castro was published on June 16, 1963 the incident took
place in March, in Matanzas Province, I was only able to confirm the the
incident did not take in June, today......so I left it out. But I believe that
it was
a Mongoose Operation.
jko
Thpa2d
In article <6ej1ou$c...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>, elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
J Elwood) writes:
>You have stated that you
>have information that suggests that there were two brothers who were
>involved in the murder of my father...but you are too busy to go look
>it up.
Is this the point your trying to make on me owing you information on your
fathers murder?
Date: 98-02-05 11:07:04 EST
From: elwo...@ix.netcom.com (Bill J Elwood)
I was just curious if you have been able to get rested enough to see if
you found anything out about my hometown....the people in it and more
particularly, my father. You did mention the name of two brothers who
may have been "hit-men" (my guess). But I cannot find that post, nor
can I locate any information on them(BE).
The "hit-men" was your guess.
This is what I believe I sent you on the same day.
Date: 02/05/98
To: elwo...@ix.netcom.com
Been busy but I did find some more info:
Peter Clapper of the Rockefeller Commission noted on
May 6, 1975: "Bob: It may be of interest that Dominick Bartone, a mafia
member in Cleveland, has told the Cleveland Plain Dealer reporter Mary
Wogel that he was hired in 1959 by STURGIS to help with assassination
plotting against Fidel Castro. Ms. Wogel called to volunteer the
information." [CIA RCD 5.6.75 mistakenly labeled by Archives as HSCA
180-10107-10419]
Dominick Bartone loaded a C-74 with weapons stolen from the Canton
NG Armory. Bartone/Morgan/Gentile are the key Ohio Mafia individuals.
Hoffa lent Bartone the money to purchase the 4 C-74's. Castro was to
buy at least 4 of 11 planes.
I found more on the two brothers and the robbery I'll send you the file.
jko
The ref to the two brothers concerned the robbery of the Canton NG
Armory........Not your fathers death.
I did mention the "Milano Brothers" who were Mayfiled Rd hitmen in one email,
but I don't think I sent you anything on the " MANNARINO" brothers connected
to the Pa Mafia...and the Canton NG Armory theft. You can find that on the
Weberman site. I have nothing to add on them.
I think you have the two sets of brothers confussed. Just like your confussion
on the "I thought all the "jko" posts were the guy who is a professor at
Marquette! "
BTW If that phone call was a bust you should have said so. I started that email
off with "bad news".......not "good news"
jko
Bill J Elwood
In <19980316233...@ladder01.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>
>In article <6ej1ou$c...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
>J Elwood) writes:
>
>>You have stated that you
>>have information that suggests that there were two brothers who were
>>involved in the murder of my father...but you are too busy to go look
>>it up.
>
>Is this the point your trying to make on me owing you information on
your
>fathers murder?
I will get back to that... (BE).
What phone call? and what bust? (BE)
Bill J Elwood
In <19980316233...@ladder01.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>
>In article <6ej1ou$c...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
>J Elwood) writes:
>
>>You have stated that you
>>have information that suggests that there were two brothers who were
>>involved in the murder of my father...but you are too busy to go look
>>it up.
>
>Is this the point your trying to make on me owing you information on
your
>fathers murder?
>
>BTW If that phone call was a bust you should have said so. I started
that email
>off with "bad news".......not "good news"
>
>jko
None of this is good news to me. I readily admit to my confusion...
After all, I thought I lived in a rather safe place all those
years(BE).
Bill J Elwood
In <19980316233...@ladder01.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>
>In article <6ej1ou$c...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill
>J Elwood) writes:
>
>>You have stated that you
>>have information that suggests that there were two brothers who were
>>involved in the murder of my father...but you are too busy to go look
>>it up.
>
>Is this the point your trying to make on me owing you information on
your
>fathers murder?
No, I was just believing the messages that you sent.
Thats correct, you have sent me nothing regarding the Mannarino
brothers, however; as well you know, I have sent you infromation about
them. To the best of my knowledge there is no mention of the theft of
arms at the Canton Armory on the Weberman site (BE).
>
> I think you have the two sets of brothers confussed. Just like your
confussion
>
>on the "I thought all the "jko" posts were the guy who is a professor
at
>Marquette! "
>
>BTW If that phone call was a bust you should have said so. I started
that email
>off with "bad news".......not "good news"
>
>jko
Like I said, I have no problem admitting when I am confused. Below is
the post I was referring to:
220 123961 <19971226152...@ladder02.news.aol.com> article
Path:
ix.netcom.com!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!lotsanews.com!howland.erols.net!por
c02.blue.aol.com!audrey02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: thp...@aol.com (Thpa2d)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Gun Running to Cuba LHO/Ferrie/Ruby
Date: 26 Dec 1997 15:28:33 GMT
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Xref: ix.netcom.com alt.conspiracy.jfk:123961
In article <67vkqn$b...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>,
elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill J
Elwood) writes:
>Yeah well, making associations like this is a very clumsy affair for
me
f>rom time to time, and I don't mind saying so. I was speaking
honestly,
>about Accardo. Its a layer deeper for me.
Bill: The mob is a seperate study and takes alot of time to establish
chain of commands, which is why many study only one family. In
this case the mob plays a very important role, the list of suspects
is long and interlaced.
Take "Big Tuna" Tony Accardo and his relationship to JPK, Sr. there
is a seperate consideration here that only relates to historical
actions
prior to 1957. As to the Chicago mob one has to also understand
the actions of the "Secret Six". A group of business men that combined
their efforts to get rid of the mob to save the city of Chicago. They
did
far greater damage to the mob then the Government, under Eliot Ness,
who moved to Cleveland after Capone was put away.
The Cleveland Syndicate, of which the Pittsburgh mob was tied into,
was a buffer zone between the Chicago and New York mobs. This
group preferred to be in the background and collect money from good
organizational operations. They worked with the majority of the
family's
which makes the study difficult, since most of the actions are behind
the scenes, except in the cases of murder.
In the case of your father, the Liccavoli brothers, Pete, Yonnie and
James (Jack White) are my suspected hitmen, Yonnie ironically,
was sent to prison in the 1930's for the death of "Jackie Kennedy"
a Toledo beer baron. James (Jack White) Liccoavoli was once in
control of the Youngstown mob and any operations connected to
the Pittsburg area, he is my prime suspect.......BUT the links have
to be fully established, they are not clear at this time.
With the mob trouble currently in the news here in the Mahoning Valley
the connections go deep into the FBI/IRS and Congress. The current
"Boss" is in deep trouble and in the news daily, as well as his
connections
to Congressman James Traficant's, right hand man, Chuck, my wife worked
with his daughter, in Youngstown welfare office several years ago btw.
It is a deep undercover world, filled with twist and turns. I hope we
can
sort out any and all connections.
jko
The above post does mention yet another set of brothers. Evidently I am
not the only one of us who is confused(BE).
Thpa2d
Bill: If you go back the the Weberman site you with find Sam mentioned
in connection to Edward Browder, its not much and the Canton robbery is
connected to Bartone, which is where I got the info I sent you.
As far as my opinion of "suspected hitmen" and James (Jack White) Liccoavoli
You gave me NO indication that my opinion was of interest, in that thread or
in any email that I can find.
You seem to over look the last part of that response in that thread:
"BUT the links have to be fully established, they are not clear at this time."
as well as the ending to the response:
"It is a deep undercover world, filled with twist and turns. I hope we
can sort out any and all connections."
Notice the "we". Like I said you gave me no indication that what I
posted was of any interest. Now if you looked into James Liccoavoli,
spent tons of time and money and found no connection, you should
have told me to stop wasting your time. Even though I flat out told you any
link was not clear at that time.
If you wasted time and money in search of your fathers killer based on
that you were clutching at a very weak straw. I don't know the extent of the
cases your father was working on, so I could not form ANY detailed plan of
further research, without some greater imput from you.
>The above post does mention yet another set of brothers. Evidently I am
>not the only one of us who is confused(BE).
>
My interest in brothers centers around Jack and Earl and their connection
to Jack Ruby and "his people" who just happen to be imo centered around the
Cleveland Syndicate. Of which all the brothers, Milano, Mannarino, Liccoavoli,
Angersola, Capone, Colletti, Dalitz, DeMarco, Gentile, Lansky, Lonardo, Mooney,
Polizzi Porrello, Russo, and Todaro were connected to.
Like I said it is a deep undercover world. It is easy for one to become
confused or misplace files but rest assured I will not bother you again on
the subject of your fathers death.
jko
jack white
Thpa2d wrote:
>
> Bill: If you go back the the Weberman site you with find Sam mentioned
> in connection to Edward Browder, its not much and the Canton robbery is
> connected to Bartone, which is where I got the info I sent you.
>
> As far as my opinion of "suspected hitmen" and James (Jack White)
WHY AM I BEING MENTIONED IN CONNECTION TO THIS INFORMATION???
I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THIS GUY.
JW
Liccoavoli
> You gave me NO indication that my opinion was of interest, in that thread or
> in any email that I can find.
>
> You seem to over look the last part of that response in that thread:
>
> "BUT the links have to be fully established, they are not clear at this time."
>
> as well as the ending to the response:
>
> "It is a deep undercover world, filled with twist and turns. I hope we
> can sort out any and all connections."
>
> Notice the "we". Like I said you gave me no indication that what I
> posted was of any interest. Now if you looked into James Liccoavoli,
> spent tons of time and money and found no connection, you should
> have told me to stop wasting your time. Even though I flat out told you any
> link was not clear at that time.
>
> If you wasted time and money in search of your fathers killer based on
> that you were clutching at a very weak straw. I don't know the extent of the
> cases your father was working on, so I could not form ANY detailed plan of
> further research, without some greater imput from you.
>
> >The above post does mention yet another set of brothers. Evidently I am
> >not the only one of us who is confused(BE).
> >
Bill J Elwood
In <199803192242...@ladder03.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>
>Bill: If you go back the the Weberman site you with find Sam mentioned
>in connection to Edward Browder, its not much and the Canton robbery
is
>connected to Bartone, which is where I got the info I sent you.
>
>As far as my opinion of "suspected hitmen" and James (Jack White)
>You gave me NO indication that my opinion was of interest, in that
thread or
>in any email that I can find.
>
affords me to sorta stop time... and ask you to please hold the thought
you have illustrated in the above sentance. What I am having a terrible
time of dealing with is... accusing anyone of murdering my father. It
is one thing to look at whatever evidence exists...and quite another to
accuse anyone of the murder of my father. You have no idea how huge
that point is with me. It is entirely emotional with me. It stops me
ice cold in my tracks and makes me sick to my stomach, and I am not
kidding. How dare I ask any other human being about the life of my
father... because if I do... I am implying that they are/were connected
to something legal/illegal. You have no idea how formidable and
isolating that realization is for me(BE).
Thpa2d
In article <6etupe$s...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>, elwo...@ix.netcom.com(Bill J
Elwood) writes:
> You have no idea how formidable and
>isolating that realization is for me(BE).
>
>
I have always taken your reality seriously, which is why I became involved.
Our paths cross in our search but we each have our burdens and paths to follow.
I sit not waiting for anyone to take my place in my journey.......nor should
you.
I wish you all the best in your search.
jko
Bill J Elwood
In <199803210003...@ladder03.news.aol.com> thp...@aol.com
Thanks, I wish you and your family well(BE).
Thpa2d
Here are parts of two documents that I feel indicate that Col Prouty may have
been connected to aspects of the failure of the Bay of Pigs.
First Doc in part:
SPECIAL GROUP MEETINGS--CUBA
5 January 1961
1. Mr. Douglas felt that Defense (Col. Prouty) was now in a position to iron
out all the difficulties in connection with the Special Forces personnel for
Guatemala. It was agreed that State concurrence in the arrangements should be
obtained, but Mr. Douglas said Defense would not slow down its activities
awaiting this.
*****************
Second Doc in part:
Memorandum From the Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs (Merchant)
to Secretary of State Herter
Washington, January 10, 1961.
//Source: Department of State, Central Files, 711.56314/1-1061. Secret. Drafted
by Merchant.
The meeting with the President this afternoon on the New York Times Guatemala
base story/1/ was attended by Messrs. Gates, Douglas, Dulles, Gray, Willauer,
Mann, J.C. King, General Goodpaster, and myself.
/1/The New York Times on January 10 ran a front-page article under the headline
"U.S. Helps Train an Anti-Castro Force at Secret Guatemalan Air-Ground Base."
****************
From articles written by Col Prouty, I gather that he was directly involved in
the subverting of CIA efforts concerning "covert" operations......if they were
in his opinion beyond the authorized level of support.
This is supported by comments made by Col Stanley W. Beerli in getting help for
the Bay of Pigs operations as it related to his connection with Col Prouty.
What role did Col Prouty actually play in the Bay of Pigs invasion?
I would like the supporters of Col Prouty to show that there is no connection
between Col Prouty's actions in the first doc and the "release" of information
concerning the operation that he was connected to. It is my opinion that there
is a relationship. My questions on Prouty never seem to get answered.
jko
Thpa2d
RUBY'S MEETINGS WITH THE FBI
On March 11, 1959, RUBY met with FBI S.A. Charles W. Flynn.
S.A. Flynn stated RUBY offered the FBI his services as a criminal informant.
*******************************
How did Ruby contact Flynn and why?
*******************************
S.A. Flynn questioned RUBY about bank robberies, major thefts and the like.
RUBY was unable to supply S.A. Flynn with any information on these cases.
RUBY bought $500 worth of miniature wire recording equipment
[FBI 44-1639-1358] and rented a safe deposit box before speaking with S.A.
Flynn.
RUBY tape recorded his meetings with the FBI and hid the tapes in his safe
deposit box in case the mob accused him of being a snitch.
*****************
Where are these tapes?
*****************
Did they ever exisit?
****************
The second RUBY/Flynn meeting occurred on April 28, 1959.
RUBY'S next meeting with S.A. Flynn occurred on June 5, 1959.
On June 18, 1959, RUBY had another meeting with S.A. Flynn.
The next RUBY/Flynn meeting occurred on July 2, 1959.
RUBY'S fifth meeting with S.A. Flynn took place on July 21, 1959.
S.A. Flynn filed a standard report. He had questioned RUBY about several bank
robberies which RUBY said he had no knowledge of. S.A. Flynn rated his
informant as "good."
******************
How many bank robberies occurred in Dallas during the period prior to March
11, 1959 and August 31, 1959?
*****************
In late July, Curtis Lynum, the SAC of the Dallas FBI Field Office , received
information that something wasn't kosher about RUBY. Curtis Lynum sent RUBY'S
prints to FBI Headquarters so that he could get RUBY'S rap sheet.
S.A. Flynn's next meeting with RUBY took place on August 6, 1959.
RUBY'S seventh meeting with S.A. Flynn took place on August 31, 1959. By this
time S.A. Flynn had received word from his superior to dump RUBY.
S.A. Flynn countered: "While RUBY has not furnished any positive information to
date, there is no indication of emotional instability or unreliability. It is
recommended Potential Criminal Informant be continued."
************************
Did Flynn or others continue to question Ruby?
************************
Just a few questions, hope there are some answers out there.
jko
Bill Parker
Have you asked Prouty?
He is still alive...
Bill Parker
tomnln
I have a "SLIDE" that shows "SIXTEEN" seperate points of information that
Ruby gave to the FBI on SIXTEEN seperate occassions...
They include Bank Robberies and Jewelry store Robberies. Among other things.
(Some pretty big time operations..)
I just can't remember which book in my library I took the slide
from.....Which means that most of you folks also have the list in ONE of
your books...
Ruby's being an FBI informant goes all the way back to CD #1052. It was
obtained through FOI action... When released, it came with a cover letter
stating that all NINE (9) interviews were Unproductive....
Even a FARMER doesn't go back to an EMPTY WELL NINE (9) times...
I recently taped a TV interview with Jim Hosty in which Hosty admits that
Ruby was an FBI informant...
Thpa2d wrote in message <199803281401...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Thpa2d
In article
<8B0D705BABFB37F7.E5A3393A...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
wpa...@kendaco.telebyte.net (Bill Parker) writes:
>
>Have you asked Prouty?
>
>He is still alive...
>
>
Have tried to but get no answer from him...or his supporters.........jko
Thpa2d
In article <6fkfku$8...@camel12.mindspring.com>, "tomnln"
<tom...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>I have a "SLIDE" that shows "SIXTEEN" seperate points of information that
>Ruby gave to the FBI on SIXTEEN seperate occassions...
>
By chance do you have the dates of the 16 interviews other then the ones
that I included in this post? I have a timeline project that tracks each date
of record concerning major and minor individuals connected to the death
of JFK. If you could post them it would be great to add them.
>They include Bank Robberies and Jewelry store Robberies. Among other things.
>(Some pretty big time operations..)
>
The NYT index for 1959 does not include major crimes in Texas for that year.
I would like to know if any concern muntions of any type or gun running across
the border to Mexico.
>I just can't remember which book in my library I took the slide
>from.....Which means that most of you folks also have the list in ONE of
>your books...
>
It is hard at time to remember sources of ref........I know it can get crazy
looking for that odd fact you remember but can't for the life of you place the
book it came from.
>Ruby's being an FBI informant goes all the way back to CD #1052. It was
>obtained through FOI action... When released, it came with a cover letter
>stating that all NINE (9) interviews were Unproductive....
>
>Even a FARMER doesn't go back to an EMPTY WELL NINE (9) times...
>
Once or twice a year a farmer may check an empty well hoping to find
water........but 9 times in a 6 month period is odd.......you have to wonder
about that farmer.
>I recently taped a TV interview with Jim Hosty in which Hosty admits that
>Ruby was an FBI informant...
>
Most can accept that Ruby was an informant in 1959.......it is the period
of 1963 that is a major concern.
thanks for the imput.
jko
Glen Sample
thp...@aol.com (Thpa2d) wrote:
>RUBY bought $500 worth of miniature wire recording equipment
>[FBI 44-1639-1358] and rented a safe deposit box before speaking with S.A.
>Flynn.
>
>RUBY tape recorded his meetings with the FBI and hid the tapes in his safe
>deposit box in case the mob accused him of being a snitch.
>*****************
>Where are these tapes?
>*****************
>Did they ever exisit?
>****************
A couple of years ago, Madeleine Brown related to me a story about a
group of people she was with at Jack Ruby's club one night. After a
period of conversation, (Ruby was sitting at the table with them)
Ruby, with a grin, asked them if they would like to hear what they
were just talking about. He proceeded to play back a tape recording
of the group's conversation that he had secretly taped with a tiny
microphone of some sort. Madeleine seemed to think it was in his
wristwatch.
I once asked a retired intelligence agent if this kind of
equipment existed in 1961-1962. He stated that it did, but Ruby
wouldn't have had it!
I disagree.
Glen Sample
Thpa2d
In article <6fm3hs$b...@argentina.earthlink.net>, sixth...@earthlink.net (Glen
Sample) writes:
>I disagree.
>
>Glen Sample
>
Since the purchase of the equipment was noted by the FBI I agree that
Ruby did have access to recording equipment. I wonder if the tapes
however were ever recovered after Ruby shot LHO.
jko
Leonard Osanic
Hello jko,
The reason no one answers your questions, is because they are pointless.
Supporters??? Like Bill suggested why don't you ask Col. Prouty yourself.
You know he has a website.
You know he answers e-mail.
You know the answers are posted.
You have been to the Col. Prouty website before.
Why do you waste your time, unless you are just wasting time?
Like I said, The reason no one answers your questions, is because they are
pointless.
Thanks for your interest,
Len Osanic
Thpa2d
In article <01bd5c30$a12e65c0$9ec0cecd@default>, "Leonard Osanic"
<osa...@astridmm.com> writes:
>
>Why do you waste your time, unless you are just wasting time?
>Like I said, The reason no one answers your questions, is because they are
>pointless.
>
>
>Thanks for your interest,
>Len Osanic
Well I guess I'll take your advice and ask my questions directly, I don't
want to waste your time with pointless discussion on Prouty's role. I
don't think he'll answer but it will be interesting to find out.
Thanks for the advice
jko
Thpa2d
Just a note to let anyone who follows in this thread to know. Lens has
sent me two files concerning Col Prouty within hours of my request for
information from his web site. The material provides a very good guide
for my questions which he has agreed to send on to Col Prouty.
Thanks for the material Lens
jko
Fred Glazier
it would be forwarded very soon after.
Thanks Lens,
Frederick
Thpa2d
Lens: Here is a group of questions, that I would like you to submit to Col.
Prouty concerning:
Memorandum Prepared in the Central Intelligence Agency
Washington, January 5, 1961.
//Source: Central Intelligence Agency, DDO/LA/COG Files: Job 82-00679R, Box 3,
Special Group Mtgs-Cuba. Secret; Eyes Only. No drafting information is given.
SPECIAL GROUP MEETINGS--CUBA
5 January 1961
1. Mr. Douglas felt that Defense (Col. Prouty) was now in a position to iron
out all the difficulties in connection with the Special Forces personnel for
Guatemala. It was agreed that State concurrence in the arrangements should be
obtained, but Mr. Douglas said Defense would not slow down its activities
awaiting this.
************************************
1. What difficulties did you face concerning the Special Forces personnel
to be sent to Guatemala from the State Department, CIA, Defense Department, SF
Training Command
2. Who was your State Department point of contact?
3. What was the deadline to secure SF personnel?
4. Who within the SF were your contacts?
5. What was the main stumbling block?
6. How many SF troops did the plan require?
7. Where would they come from?
8. How many persons within your office knew of your task?
9. In your opinion, who could have leaked any information to
the press concerning your efforts to secure SF personnel.
10. What was your relationship to Dick Drain in connection to
your assigned task dealing with the Special Forces?
If Col Prouty would like to answer these questions in a short article I have
no problem with you posting it to the newsgroup or posting the answers on
your web page if you send me a copy.
jko
Thpa2d
Mark Fineman and Dolly Mascarnenas of the L.A. Times recently wrote about the
witholding of information concerning the deaths of American pilots in the BoP
Invasion. Castro held the body of one for 18 years as proof of US involvement.
Castro released the body of Thomas Ray in Dec of 1979, to Janet Ray Weininger,
who was Thomas Ray's daughter, one of the four "contract pilots" killed during
the invasion.
The NYT interviewed Janet's mother on 4 March 1963. Young Janet can be seen
with her brother Tommy. The wives of the killed men each received a strange
"pension" of $225.00 every two weeks from Double Check Corp, but they
were later issued from Bankers Trust.
The L.A. Times reporters failed to mention the "pension" or the 1963
investigation
called for by Sen Mansfield in thier article.
The following is the expressed need for "contract pilots":
Memorandum From the Chief of WH/4/PM, Central Intelligence Agency (Hawkins) to
the Chief of WH/4 of the Directorate for Plans (Esterline)
Washington, January 4, 1961.
d. Use of American Contract Pilots.
The paragraph above outlines the requirement for precise and effective air
strikes, while an earlier paragraph points up the shortage of qualified Cuban
pilots. It is very questionable that the limited number of Cuban B-26 pilots
available to us can produce the desired results unless augmented by highly
skillful American contract pilots to serve as section and flight leaders in
attacks against the more critical targets. The Cuban pilots are inexperienced
in war and of limited technical competence in navigation and gunnery. There is
reason also to suspect that they may lack the motivation to take the stern
measures required against targets in their own country. It is considered that
the success of the operation will be jeopardized unless a few American contract
B-26 pilots are employed.
*****************
jko
Thpa2d
Since the Barb J was used in the Bay of Pigs invasion, this is one of the
first times the ship appears in offical documents concerning the BoP.
3 January, 1961
Memorandum From the Chief of WH/4/PM, Central Intelligence Agency (Hawkins) to
the Chief of WH/4 of the Directorate for Plans (Esterline)
The Barbara J (LCI), now enroute to the United States from Puerto Rico,
requires repairs which may take up to two weeks for completion. The sister
ship, the Blagar, is outfitting in Miami, and its crew is being assembled. It
is expected that both vessels will be fully operational by mid-January at the
latest.
*********Snip***********
In view of the difficulty and delay encountered in purchasing, outfitting and
readying for sea the two LCI's, the decision has been reached to purchase no
more major vessels, but to charter them instead. The motor ship, Rio Escondido
(converted LCT) will be chartered this week and one additional steam ship,
somewhat larger, will be chartered early in February. Both ships belong to a
Panamanian Corporation controlled by the Garcia family of Cuba, who are
actively cooperating with this Project. These two ships will provide sufficient
lift for troops and supplies in the invasion operation.
*********************snip********************
Does anyone know more about the "Garcia family of Cuba" and the
"Panamanian Corporation" they controled?
Any info would be welcomed........thanks
jko
Thpa2d
In case anyone wants to know why there is some interest concerning
the Special Forces team needed, the last line is the reason.
********
Memorandum From the Assistant to the Deputy Director (Plans) for Covert
Operations (Barnes) to Director of Central Intelligence Dulles
Washington, January 5, 1961.
*******snip*********
C. Issues which we should clarify with the Defense Department:
1. The top levels of Defense should make it clear in appropriate places that we
should obtain full and rapid cooperation from the services on matters requested
through General Erskine's office. We are happy to work with Erskine's office
but the actual support must come from the services and the channels have been
very unclear and consequently slow in a number of cases. This could be
clarified if the Secretary or the Deputy Secretary of Defense could call in an
appropriate representative of each of the services together with a
representative of Erskine's office and direct them to take the responsibility
to see that appropriate requests are rapidly supported. The case of the Special
Force trainers is a ghastly example of how things can go badly.
***********snip**********
jko
Thpa2d
In article <199804022213...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>10. What was your relationship to Dick Drain in connection to
>your assigned task dealing with the Special Forces?
>
>
Although this question is directed to Col. Prouty......Bob Vernon
may have a few comments on Drain concerning James Files.
Tony Pitman
Leonard Osanic wrote:
> > On 28 Mar 1998 01:39:58 GMT, thp...@aol.com (Thpa2d) wrote:
> > >
> > >What role did Col Prouty actually play in the Bay of Pigs invasion?
>
> > >
> > >I would like the supporters of Col Prouty to show that there is no
> connection
> > >between Col Prouty's actions in the first doc and the "release" of
> information
> > >concerning the operation that he was connected to. It is my opinion
> that
> there
> > >is a relationship. My questions on Prouty never seem to get
> answered.
> > >
> > >jko
> ======================================
> Hello jko,
>
> The reason no one answers your questions, is because they are
> pointless.
>
> Supporters??? Like Bill suggested why don't you ask Col. Prouty
> yourself.
> You know he has a website.
> You know he answers e-mail.
> You know the answers are posted.
> You have been to the Col. Prouty website before.
>
> http://astridmm.com/prouty
>
> Why do you waste your time, unless you are just wasting time?
> Like I said, The reason no one answers your questions, is because they
> are
> pointless.
>
> Thanks for your interest,
> Len Osanic
Len,
Wouldn't it just be simpler to answer the bloody question.
If anything was a waste of time it was your answer.
Tony
Thpa2d
In article <352848C3...@southern.co.nz>, Tony Pitman <a...@southern.co.nz>
writes:
>Len,
> Wouldn't it just be simpler to answer the bloody question.
>
> Tony
>
Tony: Lens has sent my questions directly to Col Prouty and I understand
that the Col has received them. When I get the answers is depends now
on the Col, who has not been well.
jko
Thpa2d
JFK wasted no time in moving on after the Bay of Pigs failure....
Washington, April 20, 1961.
Memorandum From Secretary of Defense McNamara to the Chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff (Lemnitzer)
Top Secret.
The President has asked that the Defense Department develop a plan for the
overthrow of the Castro government by the application of U.S. military force.
The plan should include:
1. An appraisal of the strength of the Cuban military forces.
2. An appraisal of the probable behavior of the Cuban civilian population
during the period of military action.
3. An analysis of alternative programs for accomplishing the objective; e.g., a
complete naval and air blockade vs. an armed invasion.
4. For the recommended program:
a. A detailed statement of the U.S. forces required.
b. A timetable and a description of the specific actions considered necessary
to accomplish the objective.
c. An estimate of the potential U.S. and Cuban casualties.
d. An estimate of the time required to accomplish the action.
e. A list of contingencies which we should be prepared to face during the
action.
f. A detailed statement of the U.S. air, ground, and sea forces available for
action elsewhere in the world during the period of the Cuban operations, and an
appraisal of the extent to which such forces could cope with potential military
conflicts in Laos, South Viet-Nam, and Berlin.
The request for this study should not be interpreted as an indication that U.S.
military action against Cuba is probable.
By what date may I expect to receive a draft of your report on this subject?
************************
This is a clear second invasion indication, regardless of what McNamara calls
this "study". JFK wants the facts necessary to plan the next stage.
jko
Lisa Pease
Thpa2d wrote in message <199804072349...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
So then why didn't he, when he had the perfect excuse during the Missile
crisis?
He never had a better opportunity, nor frankly more pressure from ALL sides
to go in with a full invasion. But he refused.
Don't try to rewrite history. What's done is done. Get over it. He was a
good guy who shouldn't have been assassinated in that cowardly act of Nov
1963. Stop trying to make him into something he never was.
Thpa2d
In article <6geofu$l...@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>, "Lisa Pease"
<lpe...@NOSPAMnetcom.com> writes:
>
>So then why didn't he, when he had the perfect excuse during the Missile
>crisis?
>
This study, called for by JFK, on the 20th of April, within hours of the
failure
of the Bay of Pigs, led into Operation Mongoose....which was a clear plan that
included prepreation for the invasion of Cuba during October 1962.....however,
the Soviets, in January of 1962, correctly evaluated US intent towards Cuba,
and sent Nuclear missles into Cuba. BTW Soviet military had pre approval to
launch during
the first stages of any US invasion movement. JFK was between a rock and a hard
place and if you want I will post the invasion plan, it is quite detailed. Only
a fool would have made the move during the CMC, JFK was no fool. It is a fact
that JFK called for and supported planning for a second invasion of Cuba, you
can not deny
the facts. Nor can you hide them.
>He never had a better opportunity, nor frankly more pressure from ALL sides
>to go in with a full invasion. But he refused.
>
He brought us to the brink of Nuclear War over Cuba, it was by the grace
of God that the button was not pushed. It took all the political skill of JFK
and Niki to stop the madness. Both suffered from their actions politically.
>Don't try to rewrite history.
Want to talk about the history of lasers?
> What's done is done. Get over it.
This make sense coming from you, we all might as well close our internet
accounts, cancel supscriptions to publications dealing with the death of JFK
and sit back and just "Get over it". Do you really think I care about your
"What's done is done".....get real
>He was a good guy who shouldn't have been assassinated in that cowardly act of
Nov 1963.
Have I ever stated that he should have been assassinated for planning the
elimination of Castro. I have spent 31 years fighting communist aggression,
JFK was one of my main inspriations towards military service, actually doing
something for my country......how about you?
>Stop trying to make him into something he never was
By posting the real history of the events, we have a better understanding
pure and simple, I did not write the memo, nor did I order McNamara to
gather the facts. The document speaks for itself, my comment at the end is
my opinion that JFK was taking RFK's advise and planning for the next stage.
You want the memo from RFK calling for action now? I can post it as well
as over 200 other documents that show exactly what was going on concerning
Cuba. Too bad there is not a group or web page out on the net free of slanted
views, providing these and other documents free to the internet for those
interested
to study and understand the events as they actually happened.
jko
Thpa2d
Lisa: Here's RFK's memo of the 19th:
Washington, April 19, 1961.
Memorandum From the Attorney General (Kennedy) to President Kennedy
A covering note indicates that the Attorney General sent the memorandum to the
President through Presidential Special Assistant Kenneth O'Donnell.
The present situation in Cuba was precipitated by the deterioration of events
inside that state. The news that 100 Cuban pilots were being trained in
Czechoslovakia, the information that MIGs and other jet planes had already been
shipped to Cuba and that these shipments were expected to continue, that
thousands of tons of military equipment had arrived each month in Havana, were
all matters of consternation. Cuba it was realized was swiftly becoming a major
military arsenal for all of the activities of the Communist Bloc in the Western
Hemisphere. For these arms were sent to Cuba not only to keep Castro in power
but to provide the necessary tools for Communist agitators in other South
American and Central American countries to overthrow their governments. A
hundred jet fighters based in Havana and roaming the skies around Florida and
Central America will have major repercussions. The psychological effect, let
alone the military result of this show of power could conceivably be
catastrophic.
The alternative to the steps that were taken this past week would have been to
sit and wait and hope that in the future some fortuitous event would occur to
change the situation. This, it was decided, should not be done. The immediate
failure of the rebels' activities in Cuba does not permit us, it seems to me,
to return to the status quo with our policy toward Cuba being one of waiting
and hoping for good luck. The events in the last few days makes this
inconceivable.
Therefore, equally important to working out a plan to extricate ourselves
gracefully from the situation in Cuba is developing a policy in light of what
we expect we will be facing a year or two years from now! (The Attorney General
underscored the first sentence of this paragraph by hand, and added the
exclamation point.)Castro will be even more bombastic, will be more and more
closely tied to Communism, will be better armed, and will be operating an even
more tightly held state than if these events had not transpired.
Our long-range foreign policy objectives in Cuba are tied to survival far more
than what is happening in Laos or the Congo or any other place in the world.
Because of the proximity of that island our objective must be at the very least
to prevent that island from becoming Mr. Khrushchev's arsenal. In our concern
over the present situation, we must not lose sight of our objective.
There are three ways that that can be accomplished: Number (1) to send American
troops into Cuba; Number (2) to place a strict military blockade around the
island of Cuba; Number (3) to call upon the nations of Central and South
America to take steps to insure that all arms from outside forces (both
American and Russian) are kept out of Cuba.
You have rejected Number (1) for good and sufficient reasons (although this
might have to be reconsidered). Number (2) has the same inherent problems as
Number (1) although possibly not as acute. On the other hand, it is a drawn-out
affair which would lead to a good deal of worldwide bitterness over an extended
period of time.
The only way to carry it out successfully would be to be able to demonstrate to
the governments of Central and South America that because of the MIG fighters,
the tanks and equipment provided by the Communist bloc, that the whole
hemisphere is in danger. From my limited knowledge of the situation I suppose
it would be most difficult to get them to agree to concerted action.
As for Number 3 and to some extent, Number 2, if it was reported that one or
two of Castro's MIGs attacked Guantanamo Bay and the United States made noises
like this was an act of war and that we might very well have to take armed
action ourselves, would it be possible to get the countries of Central and
South America through OAS to take some action to prohibit the shipment of arms
or ammunition from any outside force into Cuba? At the same time they could
guarantee the territorial integrity of Cuba so that the Cuban government could
not say that they would be at the mercy of the United States.
It seems to me that something along these lines is absolutely essential. Maybe
this is not the way to carry it out but something forceful and determined must
be done. Furthermore, serious attention must be given to this problem
immediately and not wait for the situation in Cuba to revert back to a time of
relative peace and calm with the U.S. having been beaten off with her tail
between her legs.
What has been going on in Cuba in the last few days must also be a tremendous
strain on Castro. It seems to me that this is the time to decide what our
long-term policies are going to be and what will be the results of those
policies. The time has come for a showdown for in a year or two years the
situation will be vastly worse. If we don't want Russia to set up missile bases
in Cuba, we had better decide now what we are willing to do to stop it.
End of memo
It seems that JFK wanted to evaluate #1.......sending troops to Cuba... in
order to plan his next course of action.....hence the request to McNamara
for a detailed "study".
Do you want to read the detailed plan outline......it's most logistics but
shows
how complex the invasion would have to be.
jko
Thpa2d
In article <199804090114...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, thp...@aol.com
(Thpa2d) writes:
>
>Do you want to read the detailed plan outline......it's most logistics but
>shows
>how complex the invasion would have to be.
>
>jko
>
>
Lisa: I posted this back in March
Subject: SECOND CUBAN INVASION PLANS BY US
From: thp...@aol.com (Thpa2d)
Date: 4 Mar 1998 01:55:21 GMT
Finally found the first planning session for a Second Invasion of Cuba. This
time by US Forces. In support of this National Security Action Memorandum
#54 to the Sec of Def from Bundy gives JFK's approval to start a Cuban
Volunteers training program connected to the U.S. Armed Forces.
255. Memorandum for the Record
Washington, August 16, 1961.
//Source: Kennedy Library, National Security Files, Countries Series, Cuba,
General, 6/61-12/61. Top Secret. Prepared by Komer. Another copy of this
memorandum has a handwritten notation that indicates the briefing was for
President Kennedy, General Taylor, and McGeorge Bundy. (Ibid., Subjects,
Guantanamo Base, 8/16/61-10/4/63)
SUBJECT
JCS Briefing on Cuban Contingency Planning
*******************snip**************
If you want I can post the other sessions and the ref to the approved
OPLAN . Prouty mentions NSAM #54 in Secret Team.....but he does
not go into detail on #54 or # 57 much, which is a shame, since these
NSAM are very important.
The release of so many documents during the last few years destroys
alot of myths connected to JFK, trouble is very few take the time to study
them. Many books written 20 years ago are no longer accurate on some
topics.
jko
Thpa2d
Memorandum From Secretary of Defense McNamara to the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Washington, May 1, 1961.
Top Secret; Sensitive.
SUBJ Cuban Contingency Plans
On Saturday, 29 April, Admiral Burke and I reviewed with the President
Contingency Plan 1/1/ for the invasion of Cuba by U.S. troops. As you will
recall, the Plan was designed to minimize U.S. and Cuban casualties, minimize
the time required for subjugation of Cuba, and maximize the assurance of a
successful operation. The Plan provided for the use of approximately 60,000
troops, excluding naval and air units, and required 25 days between the date of
decision and D-Day. It was estimated that complete control of the island could
be obtained within 8 days, although it was recognized that guerrilla forces
would continue to operate beyond the 8th day in the Escambray Mountains and
Oriente Province. The land, sea, and air forces required for the invasion were
to be secured from existing forces--no additions to existing forces, with the
possible exception of a few merchant ships, would be required prior to D-Day.
/1/Not found. This was an apparent revision of the Outline Plan sent by the
Joint Chiefs to McNamara in JCSM-278-61, Document 178.
The President concurred in the general outline of the Plan.
Please assign to the Joint Staff and CINCLANT the responsibility for preparing
the detailed instructions necessary to implement the Plan. These instructions
should be designed to minimize the lead time required, and maximize security
during the period between the decision and the invasion.
I want to repeat again that work on these plans should not be interpreted as an
indication that U.S. military action against Cuba is probable.
Robert S. McNamara/2/
/2/Printed from a copy that indicates that McNamara signed the original.
Thpa2d
Lens: Any word from Col Prouty yet? I don't want to consider that he is
avoiding the questions, or that you are holding out because of my expressed
opinion on Col Prouty via email.
Recent editing of new docs have answered some of the questions, but Prouty's
actions are still not clearly established as they relate to the offical
investigation
into the failure of the Bay of Pigs.
jko
r...@iname.com
In article <199804041255...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Is "Dick Drain" a covert operative name or Monica Lewinsky's job description
at the White House?
BOB VERNON
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Thpa2d
>
>Is "Dick Drain" a covert operative name or Monica Lewinsky's job description
>at the White House?
>
>BOB VERNON
>
No he was the CIA's COS of Athens until August 1960, In September of 1960
he started the process of gathering instructors, trainers and agents for
Operation
Crosspatch, which became the Bay of Pigs operation. He was close friends
with David Phillips btw.
I'm surprised Files or Prouty didn't tell you, when you started your
investigation.
Drain's connection to the BoP operation has been in print since at least 1979.
The many little details that were overlooked in the Files story, is no joking
matter,
imo it is a serious problem of credability.
jko
r...@iname.com
In article <199804132112...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
Since Day 1, James Files has refused to go into detail about anything
connected with the CIA. Files still trusts the CIA while he does not trust
other alphabet agencies. He has never mentioned a Dick Drain nor has he been
asked anything about a Dick Drain. He has gone into a small amount of detail
about Michael Townley and Frank Terpil but that is all. There were also a
few reflections about Antonio Veciana and Frank Sturgis, particularly about
the first time a female was brought to the training camp in Florida. Perhaps
you could mention that incident to Drain or people truly knowledgeable about
the BoP ops.
What small details are you refferring to?