The Four Ramblers And Their Escape Routes

[curtjester1]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19228&hl=pennington

Perfect cover, using a vehicle so common that it would blend in and
not cause suspicion. After all it was the third leading seller behind
Chevy and Ford at the time.

CJ

[Sam McClung]

"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:14480ff3-0e4a-4c99...@e13g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/ic9svQOx5QM

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/zXQXTBcF4U4

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.conspiracy.jfk/j1llENvzeYo

[curtjester1]

On May 16, 8:29 am, "Sam McClung" <mccl...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> "curtjester1" <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:14480ff3-0e4a-4c99...@e13g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...
>
> >http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19228&hl=pennin...

>
> > Perfect cover, using a vehicle so common that it would blend in and
> > not cause suspicion.  After all it was the third leading seller behind
> > Chevy and Ford at the time.
>
> > CJ
>

> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.conspira...
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.conspira...
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.conspira...

Well, Sam, if the arrested Oswald were so tied into the conspiracy, he
wouldn't have taken the bus or the cab; he would have just got into a/
the Rambler. He was a patsy before he knew he was a patsy, IMO.

CJ

[Sam McClung]

"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:f751ceb3-ce4a-4160...@s18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

according to giancana oswald was selected as a patsy well before 11-22-63...

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

On May 16, 12:18 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19228&hl=pennin...

>
> Perfect cover, using a vehicle so common that it would blend in and
> not cause suspicion.  After all it was the third leading seller behind
> Chevy and Ford at the time.
>
> CJ
>
>

Please note that Duke Lane does a pretty good job of dismantling the
conjectures by the original poster. Including pointing out that the
Patsy Paschall film is too grainy to establish the car is a Rambler,
so the original poster is just assuming it is.

And as Lane pointed out in the thread, as the third leading seller, it
would NOT be unusual or unexpected to see Ramblers on the street. Now,
if you had photographic evidence of four Astin-Martins in Dealey
Plaza, you might have a case that something was amiss.

And why did the supposed conspirators use the same make of car,
anyway? Did they get a great deal on 100's of Ramblers, or something?

The nonsense that passes as conspiracy thinking online should astound,
but I am too jaded by years of this nonsense (Tippit was the limo
victim, not JFK; JFK's body as altered; multiple rifles were found in
the TSBD; and on and on it goes).

Hank

[Bud]

On May 16, 12:18 am, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19228&hl=pennin...
>

> Perfect cover, using a vehicle so common that it would blend in and
> not cause suspicion.  After all it was the third leading seller behind
> Chevy and Ford at the time.
>
> CJ

How is it that Cters have made absolutely no progress with such
sharp people bringing their keen minds to bear on the issue? The
conspiracy was smart enough not to use Macy floats or dragsters but
not clever enough to fool `ol CJ.

[curtjester1]

On May 16, 4:16 pm, Canuck <prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:18:08 PM UTC-7, curtjester1 wrote:
> >http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19228&hl=pennin...

>
> > Perfect cover, using a vehicle so common that it would blend in and
>
> > not cause suspicion.  After all it was the third leading seller behind
>
> > Chevy and Ford at the time.
>
> > CJ
>

> I'm glad to see someone named King at educationforum pointed out that Ruth
> Paine's station wagon was not a Rambler.  As John McAdams would say,
> another factoid.  Btw, John has yet to respond to my post about the clip.
>
> - prwhitmey

There's probably no one more versed on aspects of Ramblers or station
wagons than researcher Richard Bartholomew. His 'article' which is
like a book is online. Byrds, Planes, and an Automobile.

In his conclusion Roger Craig who initiated the Rambler wagon said
that Buddy Walthers went out to the residence and saw a Nash Rambler.
It was only a Chevy when Hosty confirmed it was, and we know how fast
he was in destroy evidence.

I believe there are ties of ownership of C. Smith of UT and his major
influence of LBJ and the Paine title, and of George Gordon Wing who
had a lot of dubious political ties where some interesting JFK
assassination references were unearthed. It's been awhile since I've
read it.

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler4.html

CJ

[curtjester1]

On May 16, 5:57 pm, "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"

With no blockades made after the assassination, there could have been one
Rambler in four places. The irony, all these different people see
basically the same thing of the same people getting in and taking off.
Even the so-called statement by Oswald and the station wagon with Mrs.
Paine is usually dismissed because they had a Chevy wagon. But that was
only 'verified' by Hosty who already before and assassination day was
making blunders to allow for some insinutations the FBI was knowing way
too much too early; while one DPD Buddy Walthers did go out to their place
and state it was a Nash Rambler. BTAIM, a lot of study had been done on
'the' car, and to dismiss what the conspirators might have been thinking
car-wise would be remiss on what people should really be concentrating on
as far as what it could mean.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler3.html

CJ

[Sam McClung]

"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in part:

> In his conclusion Roger Craig who initiated the Rambler wagon said
> that Buddy Walthers went out to the residence and saw a Nash Rambler.
> It was only a Chevy when Hosty confirmed it was, and we know how fast
> he was in destroy evidence.

amazing

seems somewhere online is a pic of a rambler that tosh plumlee indicated
could have been "the rambler

[Sam McClung]

"Sam McClung" <mcc...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:kn495...@news4.newsguy.com...

about half way down this page
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19228

[Sam McClung]

"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in part:

> In his conclusion Roger Craig who initiated the Rambler wagon said
> that Buddy Walthers went out to the residence and saw a Nash Rambler.
> It was only a Chevy when Hosty confirmed it was, and we know how fast
> he was in destroy evidence.

[curtjester1]

On May 16, 11:45 pm, "Sam McClung" <mccl...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> "curtjester1" <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in part:

Yes, in the thread. Also, I believe Richard Bartholomew has on his
Facebook one of the Ramblers he bought that his research led him to,
with his photography section.

CJ

[curtjester1]

Here's another one, a pic on Record St. & Main where a Rambler is
spotted, and more from another poster at another EF thread:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18145

I know I've seen the one they traced into Mexico with all the JFK
assassination stuff in it. Can't remember where I saw it though.

CJ

[curtjester1]

Pic of Rambler in article and pic of Esquire magazine found in back
seat relating to the JFK assassination.

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler1.html

CJ

[curtjester1]

Bud, you're always such a killjoy. BTAIM, there were no barricades on
the streets of Dealey after the assassination. Cars could have been
anywhere, and gone anywhere. You can't do that in a parade.

CJ

[mainframetech]

On May 16, 5:57 pm, "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"
<hsienz...@Aol.com> wrote:

The altering of the body during the first autopsy was witnessed.
The top of the skull was broken up by Humes and witnessed by Tom
Robinson. The Ramblers do not have to be 4 separate cars. Some of
the sightings were probably the same car seen by separate people. A
police officer stated that Oswald got into a Rambler in front of the
TSBD that had a 'chunky' short, swarthy driver. Just like the person
seen with Oswald at the Tippit shooting site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaCCd0hzLsY

Chris

[Anthony Marsh]

Tosh Plumlee is a fantasist, not a reliable witness.

[Sam McClung]

based on a perusal of pics on google images there were light green 1959
ramblers and light pink, or pepto-bismol colored, 1959 ramblers, noting both
colors are discussed of ramblers regarding the assassination
http://www.google.com/search?q=1959+custom+wagon+rambler&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=WF6WUZnCCYHJiwKc7oCQDg&biw=1280&bih=570&sei=W16WUfToMqGCiwK-_4DgAw

From these two documented statements of Lee Oswald:

1.According to Captain Fritz's report Oswald said, "No. I don't own a car
but the Paines have two cars."

2. "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to drag her into
this."

one can induce, deduce, theorize, imagine, or perceive in some other way
that the Paine's had two cars,
a Chevy station wagon they owned (not used in the assassination) and
a Rambler station wagon in their possession but not necessarily owned by the
Paine's (used in the assassination), at least not the Dallas Paine's, as
Ruth Forbes Paine, may have owned the Rambler but let Michael and Ruth Hyde
Paine use it, perhaps the loan of it being facilitated by Allen Dulles, who
apparently knew both Ruths?

[Sam McClung]

on april 26, 1963:

1. lbj met with de mohrenschildt
http://www.ciajfk.com/de-chart.jpg

2. wing bought a rambler from c.b. smith
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/wng1900a.html

[curtjester1]

On May 17, 5:20 pm, "Sam McClung" <mccl...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> on april 26, 1963:
>

> 1. lbj met with de mohrenschildthttp://www.ciajfk.com/de-chart.jpg

>
> 2. wing bought a rambler from c.b. smithhttp://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/wng1900a.html

Ruth Paine's Station Wagon Thread EF....talks about taking a trip back
east in a brown station wagon..

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6673&page=4

CJ

[Sam McClung]

"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:c01c2c87-b0e6-472d...@a8g2000yqp.googlegroups.com...

<begin quote>
. . . . Michael Paine owned a car, Ruth Paine owned two cars. . . . Robert
Oswald, my brother, lives in Fort Worth. He and the Paines were closest
friends in town. . . .
<end quote>
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/LHO.html

so paine's had 3 cars total= perhaps a 55 chevy wagon + a 59 light green
rambler station wagon + and a brown station wagon?
(his was of course in the days before suv's)

so two licensed drivers (michael and ruth paine) had 3 station wagons

makes perfect sense to me, one for each of them and one to loan out for
"company" work...

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

> http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler4....
>
> CJ
>
>

Richard Barthomelew wouldn't know a logical point if he tripped over
it.

He thinks the magazines seen in the back of the Rambler might have
some significance.

"It was beginning to seem that there might be some significance to the
display of these particular magazines in this particular Rambler
station wagon with its 1964 turista sticker."

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler1.html

He's also the theorist who came up with the "red ripper" theory about
people trying to hide stuff from him, because when he went to his
university library and tried to research something, he sometimes found
the page he was looking for had been scored with a red pen and then
torn from the book or magazine in question.

I find his theories hilarious.
Hilarious.

[curtjester1]

On May 22, 5:24 pm, "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"

I don't find a practically worn and thrashed out Rambler found 30 or
40 years later in Mexico that has the JFK assassination in the back
seat, owned by someone that has a political life and leanings, to be
something to be brushed off. It seems eerily, unique, and
unexplainable, except in sinister form.

CJ

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

Hold on. It has *what* in the back seat?

I read *magazines*. You seem to be reading something else into the claim.

"It was beginning to seem that there might be some significance to the
display of these particular magazines in this particular Rambler station
wagon with its 1964 turista sticker."

> owned by someone that has a political life and leanings, to be
> something to be brushed off.  It seems eerily, unique, and
> unexplainable, except in sinister form.

Hello? An old Rambler with some magazines in the back is unexplainable?
Note he says "display" of these magazines, but nobody was *displaying*
anything. The owner simply didn't bother to clean up, and Bartholomew was
reading meaning into something that had no meaning:

"It was beginning to seem that there might be some significance to the
display of these particular magazines in this particular Rambler station
wagon with its 1964 turista sticker."

And nearly everyone has some political leanings. Left, right, or center.

The man saw a Rambler on the campus of his university. He then decided to
investigate it. He spent years doing so. But there's nothing there that is
evidence of *anything* connected to the JFK assassination.

And you don't seem to realize that.

Neither does he.

It's all just an assumption on his part - which makes it all the more
hilarious.

>
> CJ
>
>

Hank

[curtjester1]

On May 23, 8:42 pm, "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"

No where can it be construed as normal behavior, and everything is
very unusual, very political, very unique, and on the very suspicious
side.


Señor Wing, su Camioneta, y el "Red Ripper" <------ From Batholomew's,
Byrds, Planes, and an Automobile

The interrelationships previously discussed and yet to be discussed in
this paper were not the result of unaided insights on the part of this
paper's author or researchers. They were ascertained by studying what
at first appeared to be a professor's eccentric collection of old
magazines carried in his old car, and random mutilations of books on
the JFK assassination and one rather obscure reference book in the UT
libraries. Upon closer examination, however, patterns began to emerge.
For reasons to be discussed, the mutilations are believed to have been
done by a single individual whom this paper's researchers have dubbed
the "Red Ripper." This section will deal with an apparent combined
purpose behind the eccentricities of George Wing and the mutilations
of the Red Ripper.

To be explored, in this and later sections, are the probable
identification of Wing's Rambler by an eyewitness who seems to
corroborate Wing's background in Florida as predicted by a significant
detail of the mutilations; the probable identity of the Red Ripper;
and possible interpretations of the magazines and books as evidence.

In September 1988, this author began a daily reading program on the
JFK assassination in preparation for the inevitable misinformation
that would dominate media coverage of the twenty-fifth anniversary of
that event. Despite having sporadically kept up with the subject over
the years, large gaps in personal knowledge of the findings of
researchers over the previous ten years was quickly realized. The
reading continued past the anniversary and a learning curve began,
resulting in a progressively greater understanding of the facts and
history of the assassination.

By May 1989, this author was familiar enough with the Roger Craig
story and its implications to take more than a passing glance at
George Wing's old Rambler parked among the late model Honda's and
Toyota's.

Another direct result of the reading program was the attention given,
in the summer of 1989, to the mutilations of Anthony Summers' 1980
edition of Conspiracy. The annoyance of this led to a determined
effort to find what was written on those missing pages.

As mentioned at the beginning of this paper, the missing "John
Martino" pages in Anthony Summers' book were only a minor curiosity
even in 1990 after the discovery of Martino's pre-assassination visit
to Austin. This book was the 1980 edition, which was UT's only copy
prior to the release of the 1989 edition. It was still missing the
pages dealing with Martino in May 1991, despite the fact that these
pages were reported missing in April 1990 and new pages had been "on
order" since May, 9 1990.

When the second mutilation was found (Anson's 1975 book, They've
Killed the President) it was still only a bothersome inconvenience. UT
card catalog records showed a second copy in the Flawn Academic
Center, UT's undergraduate library. That copy of the book was missing,
however, and according to the librarian, had never been checked out.
That indicated it was probably stolen just after being purchased.

It was only with the discovery of a third mutilation, the testimony of
Santos Trafficante in a volume of hearings of the House Select
Committee on Assassinations, that a pattern began to emerge.

The HSCA pages were removed in a way that left marks from a red ball
point pen. The pen had been repeatedly stroked along the gutter of the
book until the page could be easily ripped out. This was the same
technique used in Anson's book and, in blue ink, in the fourth book
discovered: an obscure biographical reference work called The
Directory of American Scholars.

The only reason this book was consulted was because of attempts to
find biographical information about Professor Wing. Wing's name was
not listed, but near where his name would have been was a rectangular
hole in the page that had been cut out using a blue ball point pen.

After consulting an older edition of this same directory it was
suspected that the biography removed from this page (p. 672, sixth
ed., 1974) was that of Nathaniel Weyl, the former OSS operative who
helped expose Alger Hiss.357 Weyl was friends with John Martino358
(subject of the Summers missing pages and a "close friend" of Santos
Trafficante),359 Frank Meyer360 (friend of William F. Buckley, Jr. and
subject of Warren Commission Document 662), and William Pawley,361
who, aside from being a missing pages subject himself, wrote a letter
to the editor of Esquire defending the planners of the Bay of Pigs
invasion.362

That letter was published in George Wing's most prominently displayed
back seat magazine. After receiving an intact copy of the sixth
edition of the directory through an interlibrary loan, the suspicion
that Weyl's biography was the one removed was confirmed.

The next book found was Peter Dale Scott's Crime and Cover-Up. Prior
to discovery of The Fish is Red, Scott's was the most mutilated book.
Once again a red ball point pen had been used.

The sixth book is perhaps the most unusual. It is the only known
foreign language book to be mutilated, Wim J.F. Meiners' De
Moordfabriek: Tussen Dallas En Watergate. Little is known about this
book due to lack of access to Dutch translation services. It was
determined much later that its missing pages included a photo section.
No major significance between the photos and other aspects of the UT
mysteries has been found. However, there are portraits of the
Watergate burglars, who seem to have been of special interest to the
Red Ripper. But still, this book may not be related to the others
since there was no red ink. And the book was poorly bound which could
have easily resulted in the loss of pages. There is one fact that
makes it worth considering. The Dutch journalist, Willem Oltmans, who
is referred to on one of this book's missing pages, had not only
visited de Mohrenschildt just prior to his death, but was also talking
to Manuel Artime and William Pawley at the time of their deaths.
Artime and Pawley are prime subjects of other missing pages.363

Missing pages from The Fish is Red, again with traces of red ink along
the gutter, also included the photo section. Since it was not known at
this time that De Moordfabriek had a photo section, this was
considered the first photo section removed. It was predicted,
therefore, that there might be a significant photograph removed from
this book. A second, intact, copy of this book was soon obtained from
UT's Benson Latin American Collection. A quick perusal of the photos
revealed no obvious connection to UT, or to George Wing and his
station wagon.

A closer look, however, revealed what may be the most significant link
of all between Wing and the JFK assassination: a 1961 photo of a man
wearing a turtle-neck shirt, in Little Havana, Miami who looks like a
young George Gordon Wing. He is pictured with a group of men being
recruited by E. Howard Hunt for the Bay of Pigs invasion. Attempts
were made to obtain an enlarged print of this photograph from its
photographer, Andrew St. George. He has not responded to this author's
request to purchase his photographs.

With the chilling discoveries of the Weyl biography and possible Wing
photo mutilations, an effort began not only to analyze the known
missing pages but to search the campus libraries for others. This led
to the first indications of patterns in the contents of the various
books as well as the discovery of the remaining books.

The study and analysis of the missing pages has proven to be a lengthy
and time-consuming project. The findings concerning them are beyond
the scope this paper. A thorough analysis of the missing pages would
require another paper of considerable length. For researchers who
would like to attempt their own analysis and critique, however, a
complete list of the books, their missing pages and their discovery
dates, as well as the back seat magazines, can be found in this
paper's appendix. This paper will deal with some significant aspects
of the missing pages that led to a greater understanding of the
interrelationships previously discussed and yet to be discussed.

end

CJ

[Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)]

A guy with an old station wagon hasn't removed the magazines from the
back of the car.
Somebody call the FBI to investigate.

I guess that makes all those hoarders I see on TV reality show
suspects in the assassination. It's not normal, it's very unusual,
it's very unique (which is just three different ways of saying the
same thing), it's NOT political (despite your assertion, you've
offered no evidence of that), and I fail to see what you think is
suspicious about someone not being a neat freak.

Bartholomew's thought process on this is beyond bizarre.

He thinks your university library can and should order individual
pages to insert back into a book. Wouldn't it simply be cheaper to
order a new copy, and trash the old book instead of going to the
expense of ordering new pages, pulling apart the binding, inserting
the missing pages, and rebinding the entire book?

No doubt someone told him they'd order the missing pages just to
appease him and get him to go away

> ....

Yes, Bartholomew's a nut.

Like I said, he seems to think the books were mutilated to keep HIM
from discovering "the truth", not withstanding the fact that he was
able to find other copies of the same books that weren't mutilated and
thus those revealed there was no systematic elimination of those
articles or pages.

More than likely, some student, with an study assignment but limited
funds, tore out the pages they wanted rather than paying a dime per
page for copies. I saw this when I attended college as well, but I
didn't automatically assume someone was systematically removing pages
from the books I wanted to read to keep me from learning my class
assignments.

I would wager to guess that you could go into any university library
in the country, and find pages ripped out of various books there too.
Again, more than likely by students with limited funds and an
assignment they needed to write.

He sees these mutilations as evidence of conspiracy to cover up "the
truth".

Hilarious.

Hank

[Walt]

On May 16, 4:57 pm, "Hank Sienzant (AKA Joe Zircon)"

It's easy to pretend that Warren Commission critics don't have a case when
you cherry pick the silly theories that abound in the CT comunity.
BUT.....Just as there are irrational loons in society at large there are
loons in the CT community..... And only a jerk would pretend that the
Warren Commission was an honest investigation and the CT's don't have
solid ground.

[curtjester1]

And what they don't cherry pick their own evidence? Anyone can see
the Alyea film is not panning from one spot to another in real time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94APWcGDMyY

CJ

[Sam McClung]

"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:c1a66192-3399-4dec...@20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

the "alyea film" is a composite of more than one film

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

the"alyea film" is pure baloney, bologna, boloney, and palony

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

tom alyea cannot produce even on frame of film showing both roger craig and
the carcano

you should have the message by now