Vincent Bugliosi's 53 "Reasons", #24 - Refuted.

[Ben Holmes]

(24) Lee Harvey Oswald murdered J.D. Tippit.

Sheer speculation. There's very strong evidence *AGAINST* such a claim. The assertion that Oswald murdered Tippit would take far more time than I can spend here to refute - but a search on the Internet will quickly show you reasons why Oswald can't be a suspect here. Briefly:

First, let's establish that Oswald's landlady stated that she'd seen Oswald waiting for a bus outside his roominghouse at 1:04
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm, WC VII, 439

The time that Tippit was killed can be very closely pinpointed... Helen Markham, stated it was at 1:06, and she was waiting for a bus that left at 1:12. So if the Warren Commission was correct that Tippit was killed at 1:15 - Helen Markham could not have been a witness. The only witness who stated that he actually looked at his watch, Mr. T.F. Bowley, said that the murder happened BEFORE 1:10. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bowley.htm

Once established that the murder took place much earlier than 1:15 claimed by the Warren Commission, you will be faced with the problem that Oswald was 9/10ths of a mile away, at a bus stop, just minutes before the murder. He must have driven to the scene of the crime, (no witness reported the suspect driving), or ran the distance.

I invite you to type 1026 North Beckley into Google, and trace out for yourself how long it takes to get from where Oswald was last seen, and where Tippit was murdered. You'll discover that Google lists it as a 15 minute walk. Which means that he couldn't have been at the scene until approximately 1:19.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/32.7473613,-96.8183843/1026+N+Beckley+Ave,+Dallas,+TX+75203/@32.7514248,-96.8249651,16z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e999d19381627:0x35f5ddeb54436317!2m2!1d-96.8227992!2d32.7557948!3e2

Now, there's quite a bit more evidence that merely this against the supposition that Oswald killed Tippit, but it would take pages to go through... so I'll leave it at this.

But until you can PROVE that Oswald murdered Tippit, you cannot use the presumption of guilt here to 'prove' that he murdered JFK.

[Bud]

On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 10:28:41 AM UTC-5, Ben Holmes wrote:
> (24) Lee Harvey Oswald murdered J.D. Tippit.

First, the full argument that Ben is deceitfully withholding from the reader...

24. Forty-five minutes after the shooting in Dealey Plaza, out of the close to three-quarters of a million or so people in Dallas, Lee Harvey Oswald is the one who just happened to murder Dallas police officer J. D. Tippit on Tenth Street near Patton in the Oak Cliff area, only about nine-tenths of a mile from his rooming house. One witness, Helen Markham, identified Oswald in a lineup later in the day as the man she saw shoot Tippit.62 (Years later, the HSCA found another witness, Jack Tatum, who saw Oswald shoot and kill Tippit).63 Another witness, William Scoggins, identified Oswald as the man he saw approachTippit’s car after it pulled up alongside Oswald, who was walking on the sidewalk. He lost sight of Oswald behind some shrubbery, but heard the shots that killed Tippit, saw Tippit fall, and then saw Oswald, with a pistol in his left hand, run away south on Patton Street in the direction of Jefferson Boulevard.64 Another witness, William Smith, heard some shots, looked up, and saw Oswald running west on Tenth Street out of his sight.65 Two other witnesses, Virginia and Barbara Davis, identified Oswald as the man they saw cutting across the front lawn of their apartment house right after they heard the sound of gunfire from the Tippit murder scene and a woman screaming. Oswald had a revolver in his hand and was unloading the shells from his gun on their lawn. They saw Oswald proceed down Patton toward Jefferson Boulevard.66 Four other witnesses (Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, B. M. Patterson, and Harold Russell), from their position on two used-car lots at the intersection of Patton and Jefferson, identified Oswald as being the man who, right after the Tippit shooting, ran past them on Patton toward Jefferson Boulevard (where the Texas Theater was located) holding a revolver in his hand.67 Two men who were on one of the lots, Warren Reynolds (the owner of the lot) and Patterson, followed Oswald until they lost him behind a Texaco gasoline station on Jefferson. Mrs. Mary Brock, the wife of a man who worked at the gas station, identified Oswald as the person she saw walk past her, at a fast pace, into the parking lot behind the station.68 One of the canards of the conspiracy theorists that they’ve sold to millions is that there was only one eyewitness to Oswald killing Officer Tippit, Helen Markham, and she wasn’t a strong one. But in addition to Jack Tatum also being an eyewitness to the killing, for all intents and purposes there were eight other eyewitnesses. For instance, with the Davis women, can anyone make the argument that although someone else shot Tippit, it was Oswald who was seen running from the Tippit murder scene with a revolver in his hand unloading shells? And when Scoggins saw Oswald approach Tippit’s car and then lost sight of him for a moment, Tippit’s true killer appeared out of nowhere, shot and killed Tippit, then vanished into thin air, whereupon Scoggins then saw Oswald again, running away from Tippit’s car with a pistol in his hand? So there were ten witnesses who identified Oswald as the murderer. And we know that the physical evidence was all corroborative of their testimony. Granted, mistaken identity has resulted in many wrongful convictions. But here, and not counting Mrs. Brock, there were many eyewitnesses who identified Oswald. Show me any other case where ten eyewitnesses were wrong. I argued to the jury in London that “Oswald’s responsibility for President Kennedy’s assassination explains, explains why he was driven to murder Officer Tippit. The murder bore the signature of a man,” I argued, “in desperate flight from some awful deed. What other reason under the moon would he have had to kill Officer Tippit?”69* It should be noted that even if we assume just for the sake of argument that Oswald didn’t murder Officer Tippit, then who in the world did? The conspiracy community never says. And although we know why Oswald would have had a reason to kill Tippit, what possible reason would the phantom killer have had?"

> Sheer speculation. There's very strong evidence *AGAINST* such a claim. The assertion that Oswald murdered Tippit would take far more time than I can spend here to refute - but a search on the Internet will quickly show you reasons why Oswald can't be a suspect here. Briefly:
>
> First, let's establish that Oswald's landlady stated that she'd seen Oswald waiting for a bus outside his roominghouse at 1:04
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm, WC VII, 439

How do you think you can establish facts from the guesses at the time from this woman? Here is what she said in her testimony...

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what time it was approximately that Oswald came in?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after, because it was after President Kennedy had been shot-what time I wouldn't want to say because
Mr. BALL.. How long did he stay in the room ?
Mr. ROBERTS. Oh, maybe not over 3 or 4 minutes-just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on and he went out zipping it.

"What time I wouldn`t want to say..."

Conspiracy folks have no business looking into this case, they have no idea how to look at information. Even if she stated a precise time it would be useless to establish facts, people just don`t track the time of the events in their mundane lives, and even if they did, how could they retain all that information for any length of time? How does Roberts guess at the time rule out quarter of one, or quarter after? The hobbyist are foreever trying to represent mush as something solid.

I found this report where she said she only could furnish a "rough guess".

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/16/1660-001.gif

This makes sense, how could she offer anything but a rough guess?

Now lets examine Ben`s assertion...

"First, let's establish that Oswald's landlady stated that she'd seen Oswald waiting for a bus outside his roominghouse at 1:04
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm, WC VII, 439"

This is interesting because it contains one mistake and two lies. The mistake is that the information could be found in her testimony. It is from her affidavit...

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Roberts_aff.pdf

When you compare what she actually related to Ben misrepresentation the lies become apparent. She did not state that Oswald was waiting for a bus, only that he was standing by the bus stop. And she gave no fixed time of 1:04.

Also interesting is that Ben was more than willing to accept that Roberts could mind read Oswald`s intentions when he was standing on that corner. In Ben`s world actual crime investigators are not allowed to infer anything but housekeepers can.

> The time that Tippit was killed can be very closely pinpointed... Helen Markham, stated it was at 1:06, and she was waiting for a bus that left at 1:12.

Ben is lying here. She didn`t "state" that it was 1:06. Her affidavit says it was "approximately 1:06".

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340598/

She made no assertion of fact that that was the time, she offered a guess or estimate. Conspiracy hobbyists have trouble with qualifiers. In her testimony she said this...

Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.

In all the photographs or film of Markham I`ve never seen a watch on the woman. Another thing that is interesting, she is leaving at 1 when she doesn`t have to be at work until 2:30. Her work is about a mile away.

I addressed the whole issue of the bus years ago here. The bus schedule indicates that the bus would have gitten to Markham`s stop about 1:26.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/DfAImX9BK7c/K3N9-KC3KGEJ

The times for each stop are not given on the bus schedule so extrapolation is necessary.

> So if the Warren Commission was correct that Tippit was killed at 1:15 - Helen Markham could not have been a witness.

Way too much corroboration that she was there. That she was there draws into question her time estimates.

> The only witness who stated that he actually looked at his watch, Mr. T.F. Bowley, said that the murder happened BEFORE 1:10. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bowley.htm

Had he gotten there a little earlier he could have identified Oswald like most of the people there did. In other words, the time that Bowley remembered his watch to read weeks later does not trump the witnesses who said they saw Oswald there, the witnesses who saw Oswald there draw into question his memory of the time.

> Once established that the murder took place much earlier than 1:15 claimed by the Warren Commission, you will be faced with the problem that Oswald was 9/10ths of a mile away, at a bus stop, just minutes before the murder. He must have driven to the scene of the crime, (no witness reported the suspect driving), or ran the distance.

First the retard pretends he has established information where he does not. Then he proceeds from his erroneous suppositions to groundless speculation.

> I invite you to type 1026 North Beckley into Google, and trace out for yourself how long it takes to get from where Oswald was last seen, and where Tippit was murdered. You'll discover that Google lists it as a 15 minute walk. Which means that he couldn't have been at the scene until approximately 1:19.

Conspiracy hobbyist figuring at its finest. Pretend you have an established start time, then compound your mistake by figuring that Oswald had to walk at the speed google dictates.

> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/32.7473613,-96.8183843/1026+N+Beckley+Ave,+Dallas,+TX+75203/@32.7514248,-96.8249651,16z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e999d19381627:0x35f5ddeb54436317!2m2!1d-96.8227992!2d32.7557948!3e2
>
> Now, there's quite a bit more evidence that merely this against the supposition that Oswald killed Tippit, but it would take pages to go through... so I'll leave it at this.

<snicker> I thought you`d never stop lying.

> But until you can PROVE that Oswald murdered Tippit, you cannot use the presumption of guilt here to 'prove' that he murdered JFK.

Both things have been shown for decades.

[Ben Holmes]

On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 1:30:26 PM UTC-8, Bud wrote:
> On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 10:28:41 AM UTC-5, Ben Holmes wrote:
> > (24) Lee Harvey Oswald murdered J.D. Tippit.
>
> First, the full argument that Ben is deceitfully withholding from the reader...

You're lying again, "Bud."

> 24. Forty-five minutes after the shooting in Dealey Plaza, out of the close to three-quarters of a million or so people in Dallas, Lee Harvey Oswald is the one who just happened to murder Dallas police officer J. D. Tippit on Tenth Street near Patton in the Oak Cliff area, only about nine-tenths of a mile from his rooming house. One witness, Helen Markham, identified Oswald in a lineup later in the day as the man she saw shoot Tippit.62 (Years later, the HSCA found another witness, Jack Tatum, who saw Oswald shoot and kill Tippit).63 Another witness, William Scoggins, identified Oswald as the man he saw approachTippit’s car after it pulled up alongside Oswald, who was walking on the sidewalk. He lost sight of Oswald behind some shrubbery, but heard the shots that killed Tippit, saw Tippit fall, and then saw Oswald, with a pistol in his left hand, run away south on Patton Street in the direction of Jefferson Boulevard.64 Another witness, William Smith, heard some shots, looked up, and saw Oswald running west on Tenth Street out of his sight.65 Two other witnesses, Virginia and Barbara Davis, identified Oswald as the man they saw cutting across the front lawn of their apartment house right after they heard the sound of gunfire from the Tippit murder scene and a woman screaming. Oswald had a revolver in his hand and was unloading the shells from his gun on their lawn. They saw Oswald proceed down Patton toward Jefferson Boulevard.66 Four other witnesses (Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, B. M. Patterson, and Harold Russell), from their position on two used-car lots at the intersection of Patton and Jefferson, identified Oswald as being the man who, right after the Tippit shooting, ran past them on Patton toward Jefferson Boulevard (where the Texas Theater was located) holding a revolver in his hand.67 Two men who were on one of the lots, Warren Reynolds (the owner of the lot) and Patterson, followed Oswald until they lost him behind a Texaco gasoline station on Jefferson. Mrs. Mary Brock, the wife of a man who worked at the gas station, identified Oswald as the person she saw walk past her, at a fast pace, into the parking lot behind the station.68 One of the canards of the conspiracy theorists that they’ve sold to millions is that there was only one eyewitness to Oswald killing Officer Tippit, Helen Markham, and she wasn’t a strong one. But in addition to Jack Tatum also being an eyewitness to the killing, for all intents and purposes there were eight other eyewitnesses. For instance, with the Davis women, can anyone make the argument that although someone else shot Tippit, it was Oswald who was seen running from the Tippit murder scene with a revolver in his hand unloading shells? And when Scoggins saw Oswald approach Tippit’s car and then lost sight of him for a moment, Tippit’s true killer appeared out of nowhere, shot and killed Tippit, then vanished into thin air, whereupon Scoggins then saw Oswald again, running away from Tippit’s car with a pistol in his hand? So there were ten witnesses who identified Oswald as the murderer. And we know that the physical evidence was all corroborative of their testimony. Granted, mistaken identity has resulted in many wrongful convictions. But here, and not counting Mrs. Brock, there were many eyewitnesses who identified Oswald. Show me any other case where ten eyewitnesses were wrong. I argued to the jury in London that “Oswald’s responsibility for President Kennedy’s assassination explains, explains why he was driven to murder Officer Tippit. The murder bore the signature of a man,” I argued, “in desperate flight from some awful deed. What other reason under the moon would he have had to kill Officer Tippit?”69* It should be noted that even if we assume just for the sake of argument that Oswald didn’t murder Officer Tippit, then who in the world did? The conspiracy community never says. And although we know why Oswald would have had a reason to kill Tippit, what possible reason would the phantom killer have had?"

Yep... Bugliosi is indeed attempting to assert that Oswald killed Tippit

Nothing in this longer paragraph that "Bud" supplied has changed that assertion in the least.

Yet "Bud" is quite dishonestly claiming otherwise...

Tell us "Bud" - why do you think lying will convince anyone?

[Bud]

I think it is clear to even a casual reader that you were deceitfully withholding Bugliosi`s full arguments from the readers.

[Bud]

BTW, a note to the lurkers. Be sure to read my original response since Ben has deceitfully removed all that content without a <snip>. In my response I showed Ben to be a liar numerous times, and I showed it in just the manner he suggested, I quoted him and then I produced the evidence that established he had lied. Will Ben admit that I caught him lying? Of course not!

But the lurkers will have to ask themselves why, if Ben is right why he needs to tell lies in order to support the truth.

[Ben Holmes]

[Ben Holmes]

You just now noticed?

I simply catch you in your first lie, then move on.

I've long noted the tendency of believers to try to force critics into wallowing in long and tedious detail.

Can't do that with me, I simply ignore it.

[Bud]

I don`t call you out every time you pull a scumbag move. No use having the discussions degenerate too far, I can beat you any way you choose to play it.

> I simply catch you in your first lie, then move on.
>
> I've long noted the tendency of believers to try to force critics into wallowing in long and tedious detail.

If it is so tedious to be caught in lies I suggest you stop telling them.

> Can't do that with me, I simply ignore it.

You better hope the lurkers employ this same "head in the sand" approach. If not you are in big trouble.

[Ben Holmes]

Still no credible explanation of how the full statement changes from the summary.

[Bud]

The is a large difference in the number of words between the two for starters.

[Ben Holmes]

When the maestro self-flagellates, an accidentally ghastly guardian angel strokes. A ribbon seldom can be kind to a mirror related to the coward. When the widow toward the cleavage ceases to exist, the shadow toward a amour-propre flies into a rage. The boy ruminates, and a halfhearted bicep meditates; however, some gypsy goes deep sea fishing with an unruffled dilettante. Timosha, although somewhat soothed by another marzipan behind a clodhopper and the gingerly bubble bath, still avoids contact with her from a dahlia, knowingly throw another mirror at her some almost likeable clock with a ghastly bicep, and teaches the dark side of her labyrinth. Indeed, the accidentally botched dilettante negotiates a prenuptial agreement with a mirror toward the espadrille. A chic ruffian, the cream puff around a boy, and a slovenly mirror are what got Jespera into trouble. The rascally girl confesses a saintly toothache. A surly dilettante is polite. Another coward near a starlet underhandedly sells the debutante around a haunch to the philosopher. Most people believe that a sheepish bodice ripper gives secret financial aid to an unseemly toothpick, but they need to remember how barely a completely halfhearted bubble hides. The wobbly bubble is self-actualized. Toscanini and I took some somnambulist (with another bicep living with a taxidermist, a curse from the gypsy, a few maestros, and an espadrille living with a bubble bath) to arrive at a state of intimacy where we can wisely sanitize our bicep. Nicolas and I took the botched pocket (with a sprightly impresario, a piroshki, a few lunatics, and the rhetorical amour-propre) to arrive at a state of intimacy where we can thoroughly negotiate a prenuptial agreement with our bodice ripper.

More words that you... I win.

You lose.