Tour of Duty is good but a bit 'seen it before'
Phantom scojocupcake
before and kinda undermines the premise of Tour of Duty. It was how
Origins started too! It's not the most original way to start a new
mega-epic. I think the story should have started with the townships
up and running. Be a lot more interesting than establishing the fact
"we're going to build townships" and then discovering "oh dear,
there's a huge delay." Kinda weird way to write a mega-epic. You set
up the premise then dismiss it. Weird. It's a strange way to get
people excited in the story.
Having said that, it's well-written and I'm sure it will be an
entertaining epic, but it does seem Wagner is just copying himself. I
think the story would have been more interesting with Dredd arriving
at a township and the mutants are there and there's chaos and Dredd
has to restore law and order. That's how I would have done it.:)
scojo
scojo mojo
By the way, Wagner contradicts himself in Part 1. Hershey says to
Dredd "did you consider quitting?" and Dredd says "no blah blah." And
yet *the whole point* of mutants being in the city is because Dredd
DID threaten to quit. He forced Hershey's hand by threatening to quit
if she didn't grant him a council of five vote and she gave in to his
demand. So it's seems odd that Dredd wanted to quit if the anti-mutant
laws were not changed but now he knows the new pro-mutant laws are
being repealed he's happy to stay on the force. Makes no sense and
more proof Wagner has changed Dredd's personality to warrant stories
like this. Dredd's character is totally inconsistent. Yes, I will
quit, no I won't. Eh? Make up your mind.
scojo
scojo mojo
Dredd offered his resignation if the anti-mutant laws remained.
Hershey said "okay, we'll have a vote." Dredd stays on the force, the
laws are changed, mutants can enter the city.
A few months later Dan Francisco wins power and promises to abolish
the new laws and remove the mutants from the city. Dredd has been
defeated. His campaign to give mutants 'norm' status didn't work.
Dredd is told he's to oversee the new mutant townships in the Cursed
Earth.
So what does he do when Hershey says "I had a suspicion you might
quit." Dredd says, "no, I won't do that." But just a few months
earlier he said "back me or I quit."Dredd felt so strongly about the
mutant cause - hence his intention to quit if there wasn't a vote on
the issue - but now he's lost the cause he's happy to accept being
posted in the Cursed Earth. That doesn't seem very consistent. The
problem Wagner has is he's trying to humanize Dredd when the character
is actually fairly one dimensional. When Wagner makes Dredd too human
he's forced to go the "back me or I quit" route but then Wagner has to
backtrack and make him more stoical: "no, of course I won't quit."
He's trying to have his synthi-cake and eat it.
If Wagner really believes Dredd wants to change the laws and give
mutants 'norm' status then Dredd should have quit at the beginning of
Tour of Duty. That would have been consistent with Dredd's current
'social conscience' personality but Wagner didn't do that. He rewrites
Dredd's morality to justify the story. "Yes I will quit" and now, "no
I won't quit." It's undermined Dredd, made him a wuss, a man with
little backbone. If Dredd really believes mutants have a right to
enter the city and be given human rights he has to quit because all
he's doing now is supporting the very cause he's against. Justice Dept
want all mutants out of the city, Dredd doesn't believe in that policy
so he has to resign. But Wagner can't do that because a 2000AD without
Judge Dredd is not an attractive proposition. Rebellion would never go
with that. But the fans are left with a weaker Dredd, a Dredd that
changes his morality to suit the conventions of storytelling and
that's not how Dredd was meant to be.
scojo
scojo mojo
or may not be John Wagner in disguise (hard to tell) argues that Dredd
is more complicated and this explains Wagner's current approach to
writing Dredd. This doesn't stand up to scrutiny because Tour of Duty
totally contradicts what Wagner established in the earlier 'mutant'
stories. Dredd *wanted to quit* if mutants weren't given a chance to
enter the city. He wanted a vote on the issue. This established Dredd
as pro-mutant. FACT. And now, several months later, Dredd will not
quit even though his mutants reforms have been removed. This is a
complete demolition of Dredd's character, his belief system, to suit
writing Tour of Duty. As a result of Wagner's reinvention of Dredd's
personally, Dredd has all the backbone of an invertebrate! LOL
Dredd would never be pro-mutant. Wagner was wrong to write that in the
first place. Dredd's gone the "back me or I quit" and now he's back to
"no, I would never quit." C'mon, John, this is a bit silly. Alan Grant
is right - you can't make Dredd too human. It ruins the character.
John Wagner is a legend, the number one Dredd writer, but it's sad to
see him dismantling Dredd, making him so fickle just to keep the
character going. If you want to do mega-epics why not do the return of
the Judda, or maybe the Judges have some fatal disease or deranged
mind due to a fault in the cloning process. That would be more
credible than this wishy washy "yes I quit" - "no I wont quit" stuff.
It's sad to see Dredd so weak with no backbone. Heck, if the guy is so
pro-mutant there shouldn't be a Tour of Duty. He should be doing
another Long Walk!
I wish John Wagner could return Dredd to his classic roots. Dredd
doesn't care about mutants. He cares about them as much as he cares
about the citizens. If they are law-abiding he'll help them but he
doesn't CARE about them. Wagner has made Dredd CARE and that's not
what Dredd is about. It's a fundamental rewrite of Dredd's personality
and I think the damage has been done. Wagner will say "Dredd is more
complex" but his complexity has come at a price - he's now got zero
backbone, he's weak, he's moody, he threatens to quit if he doesn't
get his way and then cowardly does a retread and says "no, actually, I
think I'll stay on the force." If this makes Dredd more complex then
Wagner has reduced the character, not enhanced it. It's sad to see
Dredd as such a wuss. The greatest comic book hero ever is now a wuss.
How sad. Talk about the fall of the Dredd empire. :(
scojo
scojo mojo
a story in six pages a week, he's a master at it, but in terms of
making Dredd seem credible, well, Wagner's awful. He destroyed Dredd's
character to write stuff like Origins and Tour of Duty. Wagner rewrote
Dredd's morality in Origins.
Dredd would never approve of Fargo having an affair - it's in the Cal
Files story - but in Origins Wagner told us Dredd did know about
Fargo's infidelity to the law, and, not only that, Dredd didn't even
care: "we're all human." That was Wagner basically sticking two
fingers up at his own creation and saying "I can rewrite Dredd's
morality to suit the story". And now we get the mutant saga and Wagner
is doing it again. One minute Dredd is having a temper tantrum and
saying "back me or I quit" and the next moment he's saying to Hershey
"no, I won't quit." So inconsistent and really damaging to the
character.
I'm sure Tour of Duty will be a good read but I think the whole
'social conscience' Dredd appoach should be put to bed. Time to move
on, John. Return Dredd to his classic roots. Less morality, please.
It's making Dredd weak and fickle.
scojo
scojo mojo
One thing that does bug me too....
Wagner has destroyed Dredd's principles.
Wagner established the fact Dredd cared about mutants - "back my
reforms, Hershey or I quit." Okay, so Wagner established that. Fair
enough, he's the writer, he can do what he likes.
But Wagner introduced Dan Francisco and the mutant reforms were
scrapped. Dredd does not quit so Dredd has no principles. He just
bends with the wind. "Yes, I will quit if mutants don't get the chance
to enter the city" and now he won't quit when he knows the mutants are
being booted out.
Sure, if Wagner wants Dredd to go pro-mutant, that's his choice but to
establish that and then have part 1 of Tour of Duty where Dredd says
he won't reisgn makes a nonsense of the earlier story where Dredd
WANTED to resign if he didn't get the chance to vote on the mutant
issue. He can't be pro-mutant one day and then "I can't be bothered to
resign now even though the mutant reforms never worked out." Where are
his principles? He has none! Thanks, John! You've made Dredd
spineless. Far from making Dredd complex, Wagner's made Dredd a weak
cipher. He doesn't have any real conviction. He stamps his boots and
gets all hissy about mutant reform but when the reform fails he says
to Hershey "nah, I won't quit." That's so crappy. His morality isn't
consistent or even logical. It's like Wagner is making it up as he
goes along (which is painfully obvious).
Is there any chance we can get the real Dredd back? You know, the one
that has real convictions, doesn't change his mind all the time, isn't
a wuss!
:(
scojo
scojo mojo
admit:
". Far from making Dredd complex, Wagner's made Dredd a weak
cipher. He doesn't have any real conviction. He stamps his boots and
gets all hissy about mutant reform but when the reform fails he says
to Hershey "nah, I won't quit." That's so crappy. His morality isn't
consistent or even logical. It's like Wagner is making it up as he
goes along (which is painfully obvious)."
.... I'm right here. It doesn't make any sense. Dredd wouldn't uphold
the law in a mutant township if he felt so strongly about mutants not
being given free access to MC-1. Wagner moves the Dredd goalposts all
the time. "Yeah, I'm pro-mutant" then "oh no, I've changed my mind.
I'm going to enforce Francisco's reforms instead."
It's so silly. It's not consistent.
Wagner can't have it both ways. If Dredd wanted to resign if he didn't
get a vote on the mutie issue he should resign now. He lost the
debate, the cause. Francisco won. No more mutants in MC-1. Dredd
cannot enforce Francisco's regime. It makes his position untenable.
But we have to accept this daft premise and read Tour of Duty and go
"wow, this is amazing."
Whatever.
scojolamoo
scojo mojo
Why can't anyone see this? It's so obvious. I think 2000AD fans are
thickies. Seriously. Any person with a bit of intelligence can see the
premise of Tour of Duty makes no sense. Dredd can't enforce
Francisco's laws. He can't because WAGNER ESTABLISHED THE FACT DREDD
WAS PRO MUTANT AND FRANCISCO WAS ANTI MUTANT. Sorry for shouting but
you get my point! LOL
Wagner changes Dredd to suit the story and this is the reason why
modern Dredd will never compare with classic Dredd. Classic Dredd
didn't change Dredd's morality to suit the story. It was fixed
morality. Even during the Necropolis saga Dredd's morality remained
constant, it wasn't ephemeral. Anyway, I'm not that bothered, it's
only a comic and I still enjoy reading Dredd but I feel the character
has got far too wishy-washy. He needs to be gritty, not wishy-washy!
scojo
Jim's Desktop
<909b39cc-fea4-4f96...@z30g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
Phantom scojocupcake <bo...@myself.com> wrote:
> That's how I would have done it.:)
Back here again, Scott? Anyone would think you'd just been thrown off an
internet forum somewhere ...
Cheers
Jim
SighFi
but surely that's been done before too?
the thing is the subtle variations and knock-on variations in storyline
that's so good... well that and some stereotypes and extraordinary types
etc.
butterfly flaps its wings and all that...
that's that 4... no six... times this post :)
SighFi
bzzz... repetition of that :)
scojo mojo
Back here again, Scott? Anyone would think you'd just been thrown off
an
internet forum somewhere ...
Cheers
Jim
Like Judge Death.... "I will returnnnnn......"
That's my best Judge Death impression. Speaking of Judge Death:
HERSHEY
Judge Death poses a genuine threat to the security of the city. (beat)
Dredd, as the only one of us to have witnessed this creature in
action, I value your opinion above others.
DREDD
Rarely have I seen an enemy with more conviction. A zeal to his
killing. I’m reminded of something Anderson said, “it won’t stop until
all life is destroyed.” In all probability, Death will return to Mega-
City One to continue his mission.
CHIEF JUDGE HERSHEY
To judge the condemned. (Hershey nods) Shenker, what would Death want
with a Psionic amplifier?
PSI CHIEF SHENKER
I suppose Anderson could be used somehow. Her Psi powers magnified.
(beat then shocked) Good Grud! Death!
CHIEF JUDGE HERSHEY
What is it?
PSI CHIEF SHENKER
It is theoretically possible Judge Death could use the Psionic
amplifier. Magnify his own Psi abilities a thousand fold.
CHIEF JUDGE HERSHEY
And?
DREDD
Mega-City One. Turned into a city of the dead.
Shenker looks at Hershey. His face shows consternation. Silence.
MY SCREENPLAY! DA DA DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
(that was a lame attempt to change the topic)
:P
I still enjoy Dredd but I prefer the older Dredd. That's all. :)
scojo
scojo mojo
Oh, by the way, Jim, are you aware of the wonderful irony on the
2000AD forum? VinceBot banned me because I'm supposed to be a bad
influence, he doesn't want my posts taking over the board, but then
draws attention to me with the red banner:
"You can still read about ban-tastic fridays exciting conclusion!"
People would forget about me if he didn't create the banner but he's
giving me more attention. LOL!
scojo
john smith
"Phantom scojocupcake" <bo...@myself.com> wrote in message
news:909b39cc-fea4-4f96...@z30g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
Go on then. You do it.
john smith
"scojo mojo" <bo...@myself.com> wrote in message
news:8aaacef8-f6b2-4098...@l9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
scojo
In the real world, Scojo, people's personalities DO change. Just because
you're a stunted retard doesn't mean that your favourite fictional character
has to be like you... It's called lots of things... but growth is one of
the terms...
john smith
Cheers
Jim
:P
scojo
He ages in real time, idiot, and gets older every year. You're just a
nostalgiac muthafukka who hankers after the past. One day the Future will
hit you smack in the face, so get ready for it...
john smith
Oh, by the way, Jim, are you aware of the wonderful irony on the
2000AD forum? VinceBot banned me because I'm supposed to be a bad
influence, he doesn't want my posts taking over the board, but then
draws attention to me with the red banner:
"You can still read about ban-tastic fridays exciting conclusion!"
People would forget about me if he didn't create the banner but he's
giving me more attention. LOL!
scojo
And that's what you crave, isn't it? "Attention."
Sad. So very fucking sad...
Charles E Hardwidge
news:aZzom.100019$LX3....@newsfe17.ams2...
>
> Go on then. You do it.
My brain's trying to cook up an action adventure thing at the moment. It's
tricky as there's so many factors to consider. Oddly, it's a toned down
version of a separate character and separate world. It's an interesting
process as stuff used to come in a flash. This is more slow growing.
I've been going over some more Star Wars stuff again. There's things I hate
about Star Wars and the whole phenomena but there's a lot about it that's
really, really good work in story and technical terms, and looking back at
it through a fresh perspective is showing up new things and new paths.
Funny, I had a similar experience when flicking through a bunch of 2000 AD
back issues last month.
--
Charles E Hardwidge
Charles E Hardwidge
>
> In the real world, Scojo, people's personalities DO change. Just because
> you're a stunted retard doesn't mean that your favourite fictional
> character has to be like you... It's called lots of things... but growth
> is one of the terms...
I've got one of those growth things going on. It's weird. Best way I can
describe it is like the difference between white and red wine. I had to
force myself in that direction but it's developed legs of its own.
--
Charles E Hardwidge
scojo mojo
> "john smith" <the_johnsm...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
"And that's what you crave, isn't it? "Attention."
Sad. So very fucking sad..."
Sad but this sounds pretty cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pziiPEWRahk
Na na na na na!
I AM THE LAW... AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT.
:)
scojo
Carl
john smith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pziiPEWRahk
:)
scojo
Not watching it coz you're a nutter...
Nananana back at yer!
john smith
"Charles E Hardwidge" <bo...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:baAom.75997$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> "john smith" <the_jo...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:aZzom.100019$LX3....@newsfe17.ams2...
>>
>> Go on then. You do it.
>
> My brain's trying to cook up an action adventure thing at the moment. It's
> tricky as there's so many factors to consider.
Like what? Get a pen... get a piece of paper... sit down with a glass of
wine and a spliff and let it all come to you... It's piss easy!
Oddly, it's a toned down
> version of a separate character and separate world.
What?
It's an interesting
> process as stuff used to come in a flash. This is more slow growing.
>
Slow is good; so is fast. Ideas develop on their own, if you know how to
let them...
> I've been going over some more Star Wars stuff again. There's things I
> hate
> about Star Wars and the whole phenomena but there's a lot about it that's
> really, really good work in story and technical terms, and looking back at
> it through a fresh perspective is showing up new things and new paths.
> Funny, I had a similar experience when flicking through a bunch of 2000 AD
> back issues last month.
>
Oh, fuck off, you sad "Star Wars" fan, and read Joseph Campbell. Are you
that bloody illiterate or what?
> --
> Charles E Hardwidge
Charles E Hardwidge
news:K6CdnXGIXNy8Qj_X...@bt.com...
> Christ, he's returned after leaving forever again.
Yeah, I noticed. Which is pretty much why I left things alone things until
you lot started feeding him. I'm just making conversation as a distraction
but still ignoring him. Don't you lot ever learn?
--
Charles E Hardwidge
Charles E Hardwidge
rebuttals, or 'Fisking' as some people call it.
Pissed on your own chips didn't you?
--
Charles E Hardwidge
Charles E Hardwidge
> He ages in real time, idiot, and gets older every year. You're just a
> nostalgiac muthafukka who hankers after the past. One day the Future will
> hit you smack in the face, so get ready for it...
Just set up a company news server FFS, mirror the groups to USENET, and ban
the fuckers IP address. DONE.
Given the amount of time you fuckwads waste getting wound up and the pennies
it would cost to run someone should've done it years ago.
I see the future. The future is private newsgroup server. C'mon, already.
--
Charles E Hardwidge
scojo mojo
'seen it before'...
I just read over on the 2K forum that in this week's 'Tour of Duty'
Dredd fights a huge spider. Well, with respect, this was done in a
Dredd annual in the 1980s! A really great Wagner/Grant/Ezquerra Dredd
story about Cursed Earth type bulls being attacked by huge spiders.
Classic Dredd. The death of the spider is identical in both stories
too!
I'm sure it will be a good part 3 but er... well it's been done
before. I guess my feeling of 'seen it before' was a bit too
prescient!
scojo
scojo mojo
Tarantula, Judge Dredd Annual 1985. Story by John Wagner & Alan Grant,
art by Carlos Ezquerra.
:)
scojo
scojo mojo
I wrote this in my very first post on the thread:
"Having said that, it's well-written and I'm sure it will be an
entertaining epic, but it does seem Wagner is just copying himself."
(Honest, I really typed that in my first message in this thread, go
take a look!)
He's copied an old story he wrote back in the 1980s! I was 100 percent
correct! LOL!
I think Dredd's run out of a little steam. Rehashing an old Cursed
Earth story would seem evidence of this. Never mind, we can look
forward to my new series 'The Adventures of Judge Hades.'
:P
scojo
scojo mojo
The reason why people dislike me is I'm usually right in what I post.
See, I predicted Wagner would copy himself - he did. See, this is why
people don't like me. Cos I speak common sense and get it right most
of the time. Na na na na na!
Eat that, John Smithy!!
scojo the vindicated :)
scojo mojo
Eat that, John Smithy!!
scojo the vindicated :)
See, I was right! DA DA DAAAA. This is why Rebellion should use my
screenplays. Cos I speak common sense. Far from being this fragile
loon, I speak common sense. I predicted Wagner was copying himself and
I was right. See, you have to accept the fact I was right. This
fragile loon excuse is lame so Jason should consider my screenplays.
He knows I'm on the Dredd ball. John Wagner is an amazing writer, he
is Judge Dredd, but we need a fresh vision when it comes to writing a
Dredd film so why not consider mine?
scojo
scojo mojo
Don't wish to be cynical but if Wagner gets paid per episode - dunno
if that's how it works - it would make some sense to pad out Tour of
Duty. You don't need Judges on a Cursed Earth run, it doesn't add
anything to the main storyline (well, would seem unlikely) but Wagner
still gets paid! The longer the story the more he gets paid?
I never realized that before. Hmm... oh well, just a thought.
scojo