Tech help please: AMI Model 'F' fuses blown

[GOCATGO]

Howdy guys...mostly on RGP but you have helped me prior and I thank
you once again and am looking for some advice.

Looked at a AMI Model 'F' and the owner said it "just stopped
playing'. The 2amp(fast blo 250volt )fuse was blown in the amp. The
middle fuse in the junction box(which manual states is for mechanism
cicuit) was a 1amp 125 volt slo-blo was also blown. Installed was a 1
amp slo-blo.

1st question...does the 0.8 amp fuse need to be 125 volt or could I
use a 250volt 1amp slo-blo in there? Does it matter w/fuses if they
are 125 volt or 250 volt in the juke?

2nd question...what may cause this?
The manual states under the sympton troubleshooting chart: If
mechanism stopped w/record on turntable, turntable turning(which
according to the owner happened...a long time ago) the Observed
mechanism action would be: Selection relay energised. Selector finger
not reset as record reaches turntable. Transfer motor armatur
binding. MECHANISM FUSE BLOWN.

Then under cause: Normally-open camshaft switch CS(1)not making.
Transfer motor armature must be rotated slightly to free it before
operation will continue...which is what I am looking in to to be the
fix...am I correct in that or should I be looking elswhere? I have
the manual and am trying to figure out what to look for and where to
look on the juke for a hopeful fix.

Any help greatly appreciated and you can also e-mail me direct. Have
a safe and happy holiday season.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com

[John Robertson]

GOCATGO wrote:
> Howdy guys...mostly on RGP but you have helped me prior and I thank
> you once again and am looking for some advice.
>
> Looked at a AMI Model 'F' and the owner said it "just stopped
> playing'. The 2amp(fast blo 250volt )fuse was blown in the amp. The
> middle fuse in the junction box(which manual states is for mechanism
> cicuit) was a 1amp 125 volt slo-blo was also blown. Installed was a 1
> amp slo-blo.
>
> 1st question...does the 0.8 amp fuse need to be 125 volt or could I
> use a 250volt 1amp slo-blo in there? Does it matter w/fuses if they
> are 125 volt or 250 volt in the juke?

125V vs 250V is just the maximum safe voltage use for the fuse. Either
is fine in a jukebox (or pinball). The voltage rating refers to
flashover which means for failures over the rated voltage the fuse may
arc and continue to conduct...

>
> 2nd question...what may cause this?
> The manual states under the sympton troubleshooting chart: If
> mechanism stopped w/record on turntable, turntable turning(which
> according to the owner happened...a long time ago) the Observed
> mechanism action would be: Selection relay energised. Selector finger
> not reset as record reaches turntable. Transfer motor armatur
> binding. MECHANISM FUSE BLOWN.

The transfer motor binds because the cam switches need to be cleaned
and/or polished. they may be pitted, but more likely are just packed
with crud.

I have a very small amount of info on the AMI/Rowe jukes here:

http://flippers.com/ami-rowe.html

But it is mostly for the ferris wheel machines, not the trolley
mechanism style.

Never enough time to generate the support pages people need. I have no
idea how Clay does it!

John :-#)#

>
> Then under cause: Normally-open camshaft switch CS(1)not making.
> Transfer motor armature must be rotated slightly to free it before
> operation will continue...which is what I am looking in to to be the
> fix...am I correct in that or should I be looking elswhere? I have
> the manual and am trying to figure out what to look for and where to
> look on the juke for a hopeful fix.
>
> Any help greatly appreciated and you can also e-mail me direct. Have
> a safe and happy holiday season.
>
> Russ
> www.Team-EM.com

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

[GOCATGO]

Thank you John! I had sent you an e-mail direct prior to posting this
but maybe lost in space and I also know your usually busy w/a million
things! : ) I sure appreciate the help. Looks like I'll check the
manual and see where those cam switches are and then find them in the
juke and clean them. From your input and what I've looked at and read
in the manual it seems to be leading to that the transfer motor cam
swtiches need to be cleaned.

When I did replace the 2 blown fuses I tried to make a selection and
heard a 'click' but nothing happened at all. Checked the fuse and it
was blown again.

Thanks also for 'straightening me out' w/the fuse values...got a
little confused if it was o.k. to use a 250 vs a 125 amp fuse. I'd
like the 125v in there as that's what it originally called for and
think I can get them at PBR, if not I already have the 250 type.

The owner said it's worked for about 6-7 years no problems at
all....nobodys even ever checked it out for anything.

Kinda' crazy all that info. Clay has put out right? Maybe that's all
he does is think/eat/breath pinball. I had restored a Rock Ola Tempo
II years ago w/a lot of tech help over the phone from Rockola
Charlie(since passed away unfortunately)and said I'd never do it again,
(I'll learn ; ) but trying to help somebody out who bought a pinball
machine from me.

Thanks again John and hope all is well. Hope to look at the juke next
week again. Just have to study up some on the manual.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com

[GOCATGO]

> Russwww.Team-EM.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Just an update kinda'...haven't been able to get back to the juke but
hope too soon and will report back w/results. Thanks again.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com

[GOCATGO]

> > Russwww.Team-EM.com-Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Just an update kinda'...haven't been able to get back to the juke but
> hope too soon and will report back w/results.  Thanks again.
>
> Russwww.Team-EM.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Got to work on the juke today finally. We got the problem
solved(except for 1 more problem to tackle!) and it appears by
rotating/moving the transfer motor armature and cleaning some switches
it would finally work.

The last problem is the 2amp fuse in Amplifier keeps blowing.(2 amp
fast-blo fuse installed) I need to study up on that now. Does
anybody here on the group have any ideas??? I'm thinking maybe it's a
short inside the box(don't know the name...power supply?)where the amp
plugs into. Any input once again greatlyappreciated. Thank you.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com

[John Robertson]

Amp fuse blowing? Did you replace the power cord to the amp outlet and
the amp power cord? ALL power wiring in AMI jukeboxes from the 1950s or
earlier is suspect - most of it is dangerous with insulation
breaking/brittle. The main power cord MUST be replaced if it is the
original grey two conductor, and the internal black 115VAC wiring to the
lights, turntable motor and amp must also be replaced.

Other than that then you have a problem in the amp. Shorted caps, etc....

John :-#)#

[GOCATGO]

> >>> Russwww.Team-EM.com-Hidequoted text -

> >>> - Show quoted text -
> >> Just an update kinda'...haven't been able to get back to the juke but
> >> hope too soon and will report back w/results.  Thanks again.
>
> >> Russwww.Team-EM.com-Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>

> > Got to work on the juke today finally.  We got the problem
> > solved(except for 1 more problem to tackle!) and it appears by
> > rotating/moving the transfer motor armature and cleaning some switches
> > it would finally work.
>
> > The last problem is the 2amp fuse in Amplifier keeps blowing.(2 amp
> > fast-blo fuse installed)  I need to study up on that now.  Does
> > anybody here on the group have any ideas???  I'm thinking maybe it's a
> > short inside the box(don't know the name...power supply?)where the amp
> > plugs into.  Any input once again greatlyappreciated.  Thank you.
>
> > Russ
> >www.Team-EM.com
>
> Amp fuse blowing? Did you replace the power cord to the amp outlet and
> the amp power cord? ALL power wiring in AMI jukeboxes from the 1950s or
> earlier is suspect - most of it is dangerous with insulation
> breaking/brittle. The main power cord MUST be replaced if it is the
> original grey two conductor, and the internal black 115VAC wiring to the
> lights, turntable motor and amp must also be replaced.
>
> Other than that then you have a problem in the amp. Shorted caps, etc....
>
> John :-#)#
>
> --
>     (Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
>   John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
>   Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
>                      www.flippers.com

>        "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

John...once again I thank you for taking the time to answer. As prior
I wrote on Nov. 25th I sent you a direct thank you and another update
but I guess ? you are not rec. them so you being here is much
appreciated.

This juke box was supposedly restored top to bottom when bought by
current owner(whom I'm trying to help out w/what little juke skills I
have from working on a Rock Ola Tempo II I had and the education I
have from working on EM pins) but it still has a 2 prong power cord
which I think should be upgraded to a 3 prong.(w/ground) Good idea or
is the 2 prong o.k.?

It still looks to be the original brown power cords(kinda' like old
lamp cord) on the amp and inside the cabinet. When you wrote "did you
replace power cord to amp outlet and amp power cord"(which is a
no...not rebuilding just trying to get it running) is A: Amp power
cord...the one that goes from the amp to junction box? And B: power
cord to amp outlet...is that the 'main' power cord for the juke?
There are other wires plugged in inside the cabinet to junction box if
you mean one of them...I would have to loo kand see if I can find
which one you speak of. I only see the amp power cord and the main
power cord listed in the service manual I have for the juke that I'm
working from.

Don't know if this means anything to you or comes into play w/amp
problem but when working on the original problem(transfer motor/
carriage)when the power switch on the juke to turn it on and off(in
back...toggle type switch)was in the off position I still had power to
carriage/turntable it seemed. Had to unplug it to make sure power
off.

If amp needs to be check/serviced I will send it out. I had used Bill
Bickers for my Rock Ola amp years back. Any other suggestions you
have for amp repair?

Thanks again for your time John and I will check back tomorrow here.
Not sure when I can get back to juke(possibly this week)but in the
meantime I'll study up some more in manual and I'll probably have a
better idea of what you speak of power cord wise when I see the juke
'live' again. As I wrote all the cords inside appear to be the
original.

Take care.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com

[John Robertson]

Hi Russ,

The original power cords were usually black and easy to tell - they are
brittle! The insulation is literally falling off if you flex the wire.

If the wires are now brown then chances are someone replaced them.

The amp (depending on the model) often had a short cord that was plugged
into a single outlet inside the amplifier box (rear of machine behind
cover). The outlet then ran up to the power distribution box where it
was plugged in.

These machines were wired so the power switch didn't turn the entire
machine off, just the lights and amp were shut down. Not sure why. We
rewire the box so the power switch cuts ALL power which is what people
expect.

Check the alwaysjukin web site for repair people for your amp, you could
send it to us but we are months behind on jobs...I spend too much time
responding to newsgroups!

[GOCATGO]

> >>>>> Russwww.Team-EM.com-Hidequotedtext -

> >>>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>>> Just an update kinda'...haven't been able to get back to the juke but
> >>>> hope too soon and will report back w/results.  Thanks again.
> >>>> Russwww.Team-EM.com-Hidequoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Howdy John

Thanks for the reply once again, much appreciated. Really trying to
learn about this and hopefully get it fixed. I just can't be there
everyday to continue working on it so it's when ever I get the chance.

Hmmm...everything in there looked to be original so I will certainly
check out the wiring, thanks. This restored juke was bought from
Wurco, Inc. by owner at a show.

According to the manual the amp is a model 'F', but it is also a model
'F' juke so maybe that means nothing amp model wise.(?) This amp has
a short cord and is plugged into what I believe is called the
phonograph junction box.(from my memory which isn't that great of
where it plugged in...could be wrong) Has 6 receptacles for ac plug.
It is in the lower front of the cabinet....bottom door of juke cabinet
swings open to the left and that's where amp is located.

>>>These machines were wired so the power switch didn't turn the entire machine off, just the lights and amp were shut down.<<<

Now you tell me! ; ) Turned power switch off to work on switches
for carriage and things were still working/moving! I started calling
the juke Christine. (Familiar w/that movie about the car?) Geeze,
seems to make no sense why they did that for sure....I know now
though, thanks.

I will gladly send it to you for repair. Didn't know you repair
amps. I'll just tell the owner that is where he should send the amp
if necessary. Don't think he would be in a hurry. Is it complicated
to ship the amp across the border?(special papers, customs. etc.) I
certainly and sincerely thank you for responding to newsgroups. I'm
just on them to learn and help and stay away from the drama.


Take care John and I'll post back as soon as the next time I get to
work on it w/my findings.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com

[kreed]

> >>> Russwww.Team-EM.com-Hidequoted text -

> >>> - Show quoted text -
> >> Just an update kinda'...haven't been able to get back to the juke but
> >> hope too soon and will report back w/results.  Thanks again.
>
> >> Russwww.Team-EM.com-Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>

> > Got to work on the juke today finally.  We got the problem
> > solved(except for 1 more problem to tackle!) and it appears by
> > rotating/moving the transfer motor armature and cleaning some switches
> > it would finally work.
>
> > The last problem is the 2amp fuse in Amplifier keeps blowing.(2 amp
> > fast-blo fuse installed)  I need to study up on that now.  Does
> > anybody here on the group have any ideas???  I'm thinking maybe it's a
> > short inside the box(don't know the name...power supply?)where the amp
> > plugs into.  Any input once again greatlyappreciated.  Thank you.
>
> > Russ
> >www.Team-EM.com
>
> Amp fuse blowing? Did you replace the power cord to the amp outlet and
> the amp power cord? ALL power wiring in AMI jukeboxes from the 1950s or
> earlier is suspect - most of it is dangerous with insulation
> breaking/brittle. The main power cord MUST be replaced if it is the
> original grey two conductor, and the internal black 115VAC wiring to the
> lights, turntable motor and amp must also be replaced.
>

I second that. I first found that out the hard way in the early 1980s
with these machines. It was in a JEL 200, and being in a country with
240v mains power, the results were spectacular to say the least when I
accidentally brushed against the wires in question with the power on.

Getting the remains of the vaporised 3AG fuse out of the holder was
one of the hardest parts.

If in doubt, flex the wire, and look for stress, it should bend easily
and smoothly, and the insualtion should not crack, appear hard or
stiff. It should act like cord on any modern appliance in your home
when bent.


Note also that it was common practice in Australia prior to about the
1950's to do house wiring in a metal conduit, and use wires that were
coated with rubber and then a cloth jacket over each wire. IIRC the
cross sectional area of these wires was also piss poor by modern
standards, probably less than 1mm sq (modern building wiring is 1mm
sq for light circuits and 2.5mm sq for power circuits and 4mm sq for
electric stove circuits - note this is for 240v, thicker would be
needed for 120v due to the much higher currents involved)

in time this rubber had become hard and brittle but still seemed to
work, until the conduit was disturbed where pieces of it would drop
off the wire, leaving it bare. Renovations that involved hammering
near the conduit, or even the house settling over time could cause
this to happen.

The outer metal conduit was solidly connected to the mains earth, and
ran the entire length of the wiring, all the way back to the fuse
box. The internal wiring, once bare would often short to the conduit,
blowing a fuse. Invariably, the home owner would replace the fuse
with heavier fuse wire, and depending on the resistance in the
circuit, a fire could and would occur from heat build up. By the
1980's this was a common occurence and this sort of wiring was soon
inspected and replaced in old buildings.


If anything like this is used in other countries, it should be looked
at if you own an older house and are unsure of the maintenance
history.

[John Robertson]

GOCATGO wrote:
> On Jan 17, 1:24 pm, John Robertson <s...@flippers.com> wrote:
>> GOCATGO wrote:
>>> On Jan 16, 12:46 pm, John Robertson <s...@flippers.com> wrote:
>>>> GOCATGO wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 19 2011, 9:22 pm, GOCATGO <goca...@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Nov 25, 4:52 pm, GOCATGO <goca...@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Nov 25, 12:59 am, John Robertson <s...@flippers.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> GOCATGO wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Howdy guys...mostly on RGP but you have helped me prior and I thank
>>>>>>>>> you once again and am looking for some advice.
>>>>>>>>> Looked at a AMI Model 'F' and the owner said it "just stopped

>>>>>>>>> playing'. The 2amp(fast blo 250volt )fuse was blown in the amp.. The

>>>> Other than that then you have a problem in the amp. Shorted caps, etc.....

Hi Russ,

Opps, model "F" - yes, the amp plugs directly into the power box...

As for shipping the amp - might be better to check with Bill Bickers
first - I'm sure his wait time is much less than mine (2 to 4 months) on
service jobs...

[GOCATGO]

Howdy John

Thanks once again. I will report back w/an update when I get to look
at juke again. Don't like to leave tech posts w/out follow up...maybe
info. can help someone else.

2-4 months on service jobs wait? I would think that's good news for
ya'? ; ) If he's not in a hurry I'll send it along your way.

Thanks so much. Take care.

Russ
www.Team-EM.com

[John Robertson]

>>>>>>>>>>> Then under cause: Normally-open camshaft switch CS(1)not making..

Contact me about shipping questions - it MUST go by Post and have
"amplifier for repair and return" on the customs declaration.

Regardless of who you send it to, pack the tubes separately in the box
to keep them safe...