Waiting For Armageddon (Trailer)
Great Sage Itchy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcPX9KbwSY
In Theaters: January 8, 2010 -
Americas 50-million strong Evangelical community is convinced that the
worlds future is foretold in Biblical prophecy - from the Rapture to
the Battle of Armageddon. This astonishing documentary explores their
world - in their homes, at conferences, and on a wide-ranging tour of
Israel. By interweaving Christian, Zionist, Jewish and critical
perspectives along with telling archival materials, the filmmakers
probe the politically powerful - and potentially explosive - alliance
between Evangelical Christians and Israelan alliance that may set the
stage for what one prominent Evangelical leader calls World War III.
Copyright © 2009 First Run Features
Peter B
news:211020102106484249%GSi...@itchyandscratchy.com...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcPX9KbwSY
===================================================
You do realize that at the time of the Rapture that all the Christians would
be gone, that it wouldn't be until almost seven years later that the Battle
of Armageddon would take place don't you? In this case there is no advantage
financially or in world power to the Christians.
So other than the Alliance that born again Christians feel towards the
Israelites because they are Gods Chosen People and that the Bible
specifically states that they should pray for the peace of Jerusalem, what
good does it serve the Christians to align themselves with the Jews?
The attempt at stirring up of more animosity between the Islam terrorists
and the rest of the world by false and irrelevant information is of no
benefit to anyone but the murdering Islamists.
It really seems ridiculous to keep harping on your lies, and false
information. If you read and studied the Bible as truth then you would
realize any resistance is futile. Russia, Persia, Egypt, Assyria, et al
along with the Chinese will be wiped out by God when *they* in their drunken
rage attempt to wipe out the last remnants of the Israelites.
Nothing like a religious Islamic pedophile telling the rest of the world how
to live. Real men don't marry six year old girls.
Mordecai
What "rapture?"
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
Seeker
> "Great Sage Itchy" wrote in messagenews:211020102106484249%GSi...@itchyandscratchy.com...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNcPX9KbwSY
>
> In Theaters: January 8, 2010 -
>
> Americas 50-million strong Evangelical community is convinced that the
> worlds future is foretold in Biblical prophecy - from the Rapture to
> the Battle of Armageddon. This astonishing documentary explores their
> world - in their homes, at conferences, and on a wide-ranging tour of
> Israel. By interweaving Christian, Zionist, Jewish and critical
> perspectives along with telling archival materials, the filmmakers
> probe the politically powerful - and potentially explosive - alliance
> between Evangelical Christians and Israelan alliance that may set the
> stage for what one prominent Evangelical leader calls World War III.
>
> Copyright © 2009 First Run Features
> ===================================================
>
> You do realize that at the time of the Rapture that all the Christians would
> be gone, that it wouldn't be until almost seven years later that the Battle
> of Armageddon would take place don't you?
Actually the Bible doesn't say that. Even if the Bible is right you
are not guaranteed to be raptured out at the beginning of the
Tribulation. Back when I was into this sort of thing I had an
explanation. If the Post-Trib camp is wrong about the timing then
they get a pleasant surprise and then go to heaven. If the Pre-Trib
camp is wrong then they get to fact a lot of pain they did not prepare
themselves to face which will make it harder to endure. However I
don't worry about that sort of thing anymore.
> In this case there is no advantage
> financially or in world power to the Christians.
But there is some money to be made from Christians by packaging
Revelation horror in modern novels and films.
[...]
> It really seems ridiculous to keep harping on your lies, and false
> information. If you read and studied the Bible as truth then you would
> realize any resistance is futile. Russia, Persia, Egypt, Assyria, et al
> along with the Chinese will be wiped out by God when *they* in their drunken
> rage attempt to wipe out the last remnants of the Israelites.
Back in the day we had it all figured out how the Bible predicts a
nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR. We were just so
certain that our interpretation was correct.
[...]
Seeker
Didn't you see the movie?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Thief_in_the_Night_(film)
If film isn't your preferred medium they now have the information
available in print.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind
=)
I
> Americas 50-million strong Evangelical community is convinced that the
> worlds future is foretold in Biblical prophecy - from the Rapture to
> the Battle of Armageddon.
....
> You do realize that at the time of the Rapture that all the Christians
> would be gone, that it wouldn't be until almost seven years later that the
> Battle of Armageddon would take place don't you?
The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part of
other Christian groups worldwide.
It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of one of
Paul's letters.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from John Dominic Crossan "God & Empire - Jesus against Rome, then and now"
(HarperOne:2007)
.. any given religion can generate horrible violence ... it is up to each
religion's adherents to preempt extremism in theory and proscribe fanaticism
in practice .. p.193
There is, of ourse, a great difference between ideological violent rhetoric
and physically violent action within faith-based religious extremism. ...
The former action, however, often prepares for the latter, and in fact the
latter cannot occur without the former. ... Here is one way of asking this
chapter's maion question: do you think that the scenario of the
Jenkins-LaHaye's Left Behind series could be derived as easily from the
Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount as from the Jesus in the Revelation of
John? ... Do you think that American Christian fundamentalism is a dangerous
and fantical delusion and, if yes, is that fanatical delusion inside or
outside the Bible itself? pp. 196-197
... two separate trash bins, one marked "Bin of Unconcern" and the other
"Bin of Disbelief". ... Into which of the two bins do I put faith claims of
future rapture, global tribulation, apocalyptic vision, divine violence, and
the enrtire Left Behind scenario? Should I consider them simply as
religious escapisim, transcendental snake oil, or the latest view from
Cloud-Cuckoo-Land so that I can dep[osit them speedily into the Bin of
Unconcern? Is seriously opposing them akin to machine-gunning butterflies?
My answer is emphatically negative. For all of that program I need
Disbelief. I need, in fact, faith-based, Bible-based, and
Christianity-based rejection, disbelief, and anti-belief. pp.197-198
... by now, our homegrown fundamentalist voice - even if it is only in
imagination - has become for me a matter for positive disbelief and not just
negative unconcern.
Jesus departed this earth issuing a series of "fear nots", but these
Christians have replaced them with "fear lots." p. 199
Barbara Rossing's 2004 book, The Rapture Exposed, is a powerful indictment
of American Christian fundamentalist's lust for divine ethnic cleansing and
transcendental cosmicide. As a professor of the New Testament at Chicago's
Lutheran School Of Theology, she can expertly judge the excesses of "the
destructive racket of rapture" (pp.1-18). That "rapture racket" has existed
only since around 1830 ... p. 200
It has often been noted that the word "rapture" never appears anywhere in
the Christian Bible. But it is even more important to note that neither does
the idea, the theme, or the concept as interpreted by contemporary
fundamentalist Christians. ... it is quite simply a mistake, a
misunderstanding of what Paul speaks about in I Thessaloneans 4:15-17 ...
the coming [parousia] ... to meet [eis apantesin] the Lord in the air ...
The problem is that Paul is trying to tell us something quite different that
demands OUR acceptance of HIS meaning rather than the imposition of an alien
concept on his text. p. 203
In its special, technical usage, parousia means the arroval at a city of a
conquering general, an important official, an imperial emissary, or, above
all, the emperor himself. ... in the Greco-Roman world, the reception, or
apantesis, always involved individuals GOING OUT to meet somebody and
ESCORTING that somebody bhack into their place of residence. It necver meant
meeting an arriving person and returning with him whence he came. That would
be simple nonsense. Notice therefore, Paul's use of these technical terms
for VISITATION and RECEPTION in 1 Thessaloneans. He uses parousia for "our
Lord Jesus at his COMING" in 2:19, "the COMING of our Lord Jesus with all
hios saints" in 3:13, "the COMING of the Lord" in 4:15, and "the COMING of
our Lord Jesus Christ" in 5:23. he uses apantesis for Thessalonean
Christians "MEETING the Lord in the air" at his parousia in 4:17. p. 205
Paul - like Jesus before him - believed that God's Great Cosmic Cleanup had
already begun. he also believed - quite incorrectly - that it would be
consummated within hisn own generation. ... First the dead Christians and
then the living Christians will be taken up ("raptured" - if you like) to
meet Christ not "in heaven" but "in the clouds" or "in the air". And they
will meet Christ to return to an earth totally transformed, utterly
transfigured, and fully completed in nonviolence and holiness, justice, and
peace. That is Paul's vision. p.208
What the Left behind series has actually left behind is Jesus's faith in the
Kingdom of God, Paul's hope for the Lordship of Christ, and God's love for
the future of the earth. p.208
Mark's gospel ... two events are separated ...
Jerusalem's destruction" in those days there will be suffering" (13:19)
Jesus' Second Coming" "in those days, after that suffering" (13:24) p.215
... whule mark clearly separates Jerusalem's destruction from Jesus' return,
he also believestyhat the latter will occur VERY SOON after the former and
that both will occur within the lifetime of his audience. ... Mark - like
paul before him - was wrong onn the timing of the latter event - off by two
thousand years and still counting. ... [Mark's] Little Apocalypse insists
that the horrors of war come BEFORE the returmn of Jesus and that those who
equate war and return are false and deceiving. Therefore, of course, one
could never speak of the returning of Jesus conducting or promoting that
warfare. pp. 216-217
Is our criterion the incarnational Jesuis or the apocalyptic Jesus? Or more
precisely, is it the nonviolent Jesus of Mark's Little Apocalypse or the
violent Jesus of John's Great Apocalypse? p.217
It is one thing to announce, as in Mark's Little Apocalypse, that there will
be a spasmic paroxysm of HUMAN violence BEFORE the returing of Christ. It
is another thing to announce, as in John's Great Apovcalypse, that there
will be a spasmic proxysm of DIVINE violence BY the returning Christ. The
First Coming has Jesus on a donkey making a nonviolent demonstration. The
Second Coming has Jesus on a war horse leading a violent attack. pp 217-218
The Book of Revelation, the Great Apocalypse from John of Patmos (1:9), is,
first of all, a linked and interwoven attack on the emopire of Rome, the
city of Rome, and the emperor of Rome ... p. 218
To turn the nonviolent resitance of the slaughtered Jesus into the violent
warfare of the slaughtering Jesus is, for me as a Christian, to libel the
body of Jesus and to blaspheme the soul of Christ. That is my indictment
against the Great Apocalypse ... p.224
.. for Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus - but not for John of Patmos -
that all-new world depends on our becoming "participants" with God so that,
together "if we will but do it, we will bring about a new day of justice and
brotherhood and peace" [Quoting Martin Luther King Jr. , March 13, 1968,
National Cathedral, Washington] p. 230
The Second Coming of Christ is not an event that we should expect to happen
SOON. The Second Coming of Christ is not an event that we should expect to
happen VIOLENTLY. The Second Coming of Christ is not an event that we
should expecvt to happen LITERALLY. The Second Coming of Christ is what
will happen when we Christians finally accept that the First Coming was the
Only Coming and start to co-operate with its divine presence. pp. 230-231
Three questions are then obvious for anyone who is both Christian and
American today:
How is it possible to be a faithful Christian in the American Empire? ...
How is it possible to be a nonviolent Christian within a violent
Christianity based on a violent Christian Bible? ...
How is it possibl;e to be a faithful Christian in an American Empire
facilitated by a violent Christian Bible? ...
... the radicality of God's nonviolence constantly challenges the normalcy
of civilization's violence ... the normalcy of civilization constantly
negates the radicality of God. p.238
... my own way of rephrasing the biblical tradition from microcosm to
macrocosm ...
Macroparasitism, Kleptocracy, the Cage, or the Trap but that I call
Civilization itself ... its chant "First victory, then peace," or "Peace by
victory."..
Idealism, Utopia, Eschatology, or Apocalypse, but I call it
Post-Civilization, and its chant is "First justioce, then peace," or "Peace
by justice." ...
Nihilism, Genocide, Totalitarianism, or terrorism, but I call it
Anti-Civilization, and its chant is "First death, then peace," or "Peace by
death." p.240
The good news, as just seen from Jesus and Paul, is that the violent
normalcy of human civilization is not the inevitable destiny of human
natuire. christian faith and human evolution agree on that point. Since we
INVENTED civilization some six thousand years ago along the irrigated
floodplains of great rivers, we can also UN-INVENT it - we can create an
alternative. In teh challenge of Christian faith, we are called to cooperate
in establishing the Kingdom of God in a transformed earth. In the challenge
of human evolution, we are called to Post-Civilization, to imagine it, to
create it, and to enjoy it on a transfigured earth. pp. 241-242
I
> Back in the day we had it all figured out how the Bible predicts a
> nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR. We were just so
> certain that our interpretation was correct.
Yes, the best seller Hal Lindsay's "The Late Great Planet Earth".
Most of his interpretastions have been proven wrong. The sa,e as David
wilkerson's "The Vision". All fear mongering and nothing constructive.
The truth of the matter is that fundamentalists HATE the world and want to
depart as soon as possible to be with Jesus ... as long as it doesn't
involve their death. It is all about escapism so that they don't have to
face the harsh realities of life. You just believe in Jesus ... and float
up in the sky like superman to meet Jesus in a cloud. How very sweet ...
and naive.
Mordecai
The heinlein cult has a doctrine that the way for martian like JC to
become a G_d is to become an old one which requires death. JC died on the
cross and thus became a G_d and this is all explained in the doctrine "G_d
creation."
As everyone knows, G_d creation requires that the return of JC will make
Christians into martian old ones like JC.
Peter B proclaimed that the doctrine of Rapture is real.
It is about as real as the utter bullshit of the ** mythical ** Heinlein
cult.
Never could understand how such utter and uninspired fear driven crap could
be accepted into the christian church.
But then - you had the prosperity doctrine (I liked that one - I counted
seven, repeat SEVEN changes to the definition of the word "love" to produce
the outcome they desired ... WOW!")
Again utter bullshit but at least it was logical and had a pretence of
theology.
I can remember the EU when it was formed and the prediction it would have
ten members. if it did not have ten members - the doctrine would fail. Sure
... except it they never bothered to throw it out when it had more than ten
members because they needed a theory ....
Naturally Babylon = Rome = Europe! SURE ... those damned flying pigs and
never a butterfly net when I need one!
Sigh ... I know I am acting crappy but look at the quality of the theology!
The "Rapture" doctrine is so obviously wrong.
Peter B
What "rapture?"
================================================
Rapture is a word used in place of "being caught up" Snatched away as in
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which
are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which
sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are
asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the
Lord.
This event is to take place during the time of the Laodicean Church, which
is the time we are now in the bulk of churches being apostate.
This catching away happens just before the beginning of the time of the
Great Tribulation, the last seven years owed the Israelites out of the 490
years that were promised to the Hebrews. 70 X 70 years. Seven if those years
are yet promised to them. At the end of the seven years the Messiah returns
to prevent the total wipeout of the Israelites and the rest of the world.
This is the scenario in a tight nutshell, there is far more to it that this.
The terminology commonly used is also poor in two ways, the first I already
mentioned, the second is the term "Christian" as it is the Believers, dead
and alive that are caught away, both Jew and Greek.
I
> > What "rapture?"
> ================================================
> Rapture is a word used in place of "being caught up" Snatched away as in
>
> 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)
It is a MISINTERPRETATION of what Paul was saying.
> This event is to take place during the time of the Laodicean Church
There is no such "time" as the Laodicean church was a PLACE.
> This catching away happens just before the beginning of the time of the
> Great Tribulation, the last seven years owed the Israelites out of the 490
> years that were promised to the Hebrews. 70 X 70 years. Seven if those
> years are yet promised to them. At the end of the seven years the Messiah
> returns to prevent the total wipeout of the Israelites and the rest of the
> world.
All subjective opinion and not a single fact.
Peter B
news:4eb846e8-4bb9-4db7...@p20g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
========================================================
My reader was "upgraded" I am going to have to check it out for settings, it
obviously isn't working well as a reader.
It actually does, and is backed up in several ways.
> In this case there is no advantage
> financially or in world power to the Christians.
But there is some money to be made from Christians by packaging
Revelation horror in modern novels and films.
================================================
LOL, cynically yes, you are correct. I hadn't considered that but in any
event it is way before the events happen and the money isn't being used by a
world "alliance" to rule or whatever.
[...]
> It really seems ridiculous to keep harping on your lies, and false
> information. If you read and studied the Bible as truth then you would
> realize any resistance is futile. Russia, Persia, Egypt, Assyria, et al
> along with the Chinese will be wiped out by God when *they* in their
> drunken
> rage attempt to wipe out the last remnants of the Israelites.
Back in the day we had it all figured out how the Bible predicts a
nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR. We were just so
certain that our interpretation was correct.
==============================================
I never thought that, and the closest I could come to it was China and the
USA going at it. At the time China was a non-entity in the world power game,
now it is a far different story.
[...]
Peter B
"Peter B" <.@.> wrote:
> Americas 50-million strong Evangelical community is convinced that the
> worlds future is foretold in Biblical prophecy - from the Rapture to
> the Battle of Armageddon.
....
> You do realize that at the time of the Rapture that all the Christians
> would be gone, that it wouldn't be until almost seven years later that the
> Battle of Armageddon would take place don't you?
The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part of
other Christian groups worldwide.
It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of one of
Paul's letters.
====================================================
I know otherwise.
BTW, re:Fundies. As you must have gathered by now I am not one. It may be a
crutch you use to sustain your illogical thinking but it does not fit.
I reject it in its entirety. The only religion God established is the Jewish
one. None other.
Peter B
"Peter B" <.@.> wrote:
> > What "rapture?"
> ================================================
> Rapture is a word used in place of "being caught up" Snatched away as in
>
> 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)
It is a MISINTERPRETATION of what Paul was saying.
=================================
Yelling does not make you right. :)
> This event is to take place during the time of the Laodicean Church
There is no such "time" as the Laodicean church was a PLACE.
=====================================================
The seven churches? You are part of that apostate church yourself and
propagate their false beliefs and deceptions.
> This catching away happens just before the beginning of the time of the
> Great Tribulation, the last seven years owed the Israelites out of the 490
> years that were promised to the Hebrews. 70 X 70 years. Seven if those
> years are yet promised to them. At the end of the seven years the Messiah
> returns to prevent the total wipeout of the Israelites and the rest of the
> world.
All subjective opinion and not a single fact.
========================================================
You have no facts only subjective opinions, well, lol, you don't even have
those as you pull your thoughts from others and follow those people
religiously. No facts, nothing.
I have faith in and of God.
Mordecai
Sigh ... Rapture is an EMOTION and has nothing at all to do with being
snatched away.
The start of this is someone who portrays their thought processes because
they discuss the return of JC in terms of the EMOTIONAL FEELINGS THEY
DEMAND THAT PEOPLE FEEL.
This is wonderful - where on earth does it say that everyone who is
snatched up ... say those already dead - might be feeling this emotion?
The name given to the theory starts by TELLING YOU the motives of the
person who has pulled this doctrine from your of their belly button. Not
what I call ... inspiring ... isn't it?
Then we have "snatched away." But it says to meet him in the air as he
comes ... so it is not snatched away but a greeting party.
So whoever the "genius" who has "interpreted these verses from a personal -
emotional need driven agenda has done is presume the outcome he wants which
is incompatible with the very scripture which is used to create the
doctrine.
In actual fact - there are two other verses in this misbegotten theory ...
set up in a way which requires all three verses to be perfectly interpreted
for the theory to hold.
That is - if the first two verses are correct and the third is false, the
entire theory is false. Ditto if the first is false or the second is false.
So we can apply probability theory - that is the probability of the correct
interpretation fo the first verse, the probability of the correct
interpretation of the second verse - and the probability of the correct
interpretation of the third verse.
So we have to correctly state the snatching away ... well I find the
probability of being snatched away as improbable. Because I consider this
bullshit - I err on the side that my bias is wrong so i will assign a
probability that this verse being correct is ... 70 percent. Personally I
think it is thirty percent.
The second verse is even less probable - but we will assign the value of
70% again.
The third verse is utter bullshit - I would not bother to give any
probability - but I am bending over backwards and assign a value of 30%.
Overall, the probability that this theory is true on the most positive side
makes it ... 15%
And that is the most positive I can get.
Even assigning the correct probability of each of the verses at 90% - the
overall outcome is 70% ... and if the probability of each verse is 80% -
the overall probability is 50%.
Hey ... tell me how the "mature christians" get snatched away because they
are loved and the others (The jews are one subset of the ones who are to
replace the Christians) are to be new believers, lacking the holy spirit, -
and they are to go through what the mature and seasoned Christians were
unable to go through ... so obviously G_d does not love the replacements
like the mature christians who are such frigging inept failures that they
cannot get a martyrs reward.
Oh I KEEP FORGETTING.
The NT promotes sacrifice and reward for the sacrifice and the testimony of
such sacrifice - that they loved G_d more than they loved their life ...
because they do not give a rats arse what G_d wants ... THEY ARE NOT
ALLOWED TO SUFFER!
This is what happens when a fear driven emotional christian is more
interested in his or her experience ... rather than seeking G_d ... and in
their selfishness that G_d loves them and they are not allowed to suffer.
After all - JC suffered and nobody else is allowed to suffer!
JC is your example .... except he is going to intervene to prevent you from
being treated in a like manner!
There is no Rapture!
What a load of CRAP!
Peter B
==============================================================
Sigh....
rap�ture (rpchr)
n.
1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to
heaven.
See descript three.
-----------------------------------------------------------
The start of this is someone who portrays their thought processes because
they discuss the return of JC in terms of the EMOTIONAL FEELINGS THEY
DEMAND THAT PEOPLE FEEL.
This is wonderful - where on earth does it say that everyone who is
snatched up ... say those already dead - might be feeling this emotion?
The name given to the theory starts by TELLING YOU the motives of the
person who has pulled this doctrine from your of their belly button. Not
what I call ... inspiring ... isn't it?
Then we have "snatched away." But it says to meet him in the air as he
comes ... so it is not snatched away but a greeting party.
So whoever the "genius" who has "interpreted these verses from a personal -
emotional need driven agenda has done is presume the outcome he wants which
is incompatible with the very scripture which is used to create the
doctrine.
===========================================================
Sigh ....
Quoted verses say otherwise.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In actual fact - there are two other verses in this misbegotten theory ...
set up in a way which requires all three verses to be perfectly interpreted
for the theory to hold.
That is - if the first two verses are correct and the third is false, the
entire theory is false. Ditto if the first is false or the second is false.
So we can apply probability theory - that is the probability of the correct
interpretation fo the first verse, the probability of the correct
interpretation of the second verse - and the probability of the correct
interpretation of the third verse.
So we have to correctly state the snatching away ... well I find the
probability of being snatched away as improbable. Because I consider this
bullshit - I err on the side that my bias is wrong so i will assign a
probability that this verse being correct is ... 70 percent. Personally I
think it is thirty percent.
The second verse is even less probable - but we will assign the value of
70% again.
The third verse is utter bullshit - I would not bother to give any
probability - but I am bending over backwards and assign a value of 30%.
Overall, the probability that this theory is true on the most positive side
makes it ... 15%
And that is the most positive I can get.
Even assigning the correct probability of each of the verses at 90% - the
overall outcome is 70% ... and if the probability of each verse is 80% -
the overall probability is 50%.
=============================================
5+-10/Q*50 sq rt +6((58-24)/2.687))= ??(22*Q)
Yawn
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey ... tell me how the "mature christians" get snatched away because they
are loved and the others (The jews are one subset of the ones who are to
replace the Christians) are to be new believers, lacking the holy spirit, -
and they are to go through what the mature and seasoned Christians were
unable to go through ... so obviously G_d does not love the replacements
like the mature christians who are such frigging inept failures that they
cannot get a martyrs reward.
Oh I KEEP FORGETTING.
The NT promotes sacrifice and reward for the sacrifice and the testimony of
such sacrifice - that they loved G_d more than they loved their life ...
because they do not give a rats arse what G_d wants ... THEY ARE NOT
ALLOWED TO SUFFER!
======================================================
Convoluted misunderstanding on your part = 0 insight.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what happens when a fear driven emotional christian is more
interested in his or her experience ... rather than seeking G_d ... and in
their selfishness that G_d loves them and they are not allowed to suffer.
After all - JC suffered and nobody else is allowed to suffer!
JC is your example .... except he is going to intervene to prevent you from
being treated in a like manner!
There is no Rapture!
What a load of CRAP!
======================================================
Really doesn't matter what you think, or even what you believe. Why did you
ask about the rapture when you have your own messed up way of thinking? The
upside to this little rant of yours without any semblance of reasonability
is that I know where you stand and in what you stand.
No further replies from me are necessary or warranted.
As to fear? I live in fear of God as should any reasonable wisdom seeking
man would. As to fear of events? No fear.
As to the emotional type? LOL whatever you call yourself your post shows
yours emotions all over it.
Great Sage Itchy
<4eb846e8-4bb9-4db7...@p20g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Seeker <hso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Very good. There is way too much certainty about this subject.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
The world will be very different when the events that end this modern
world come to pass. There is at least 50 years to go, and possibly 100
or more. However there are many who are in a big hurry. So there is a
good possibikity of a WW3 that has no relationship to prophecy.
This will probably happen.
The real date for "day 1" of the spiritual world that is coming is Nov
1 2102.
IN RESPONSE TO PETER:
The Jews were not chosen by God. God is not a person, and cannot
"choose" anybody.
Everything is One. There is only One origin for all created things.
That origin we call God. All created things are God. All people are
your brothers and sisters. In the world that is coming, everyone will
know Oneness.
I
>> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part of
>> other Christian groups worldwide.
> > It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of one
> > of
>> Paul's letters.
>
> I know otherwise.
No you don't.
JESUS' FIRST COMING - The historic Jesus
Historic time / space fact.
Jesus was conceived and born in the usual manner. Jesus did not fly through
the skies like Superman as a fully grown adult and dock at Nazareth.
Jesus was later crucified and died. He left in the same manner as every
other human - death.
Later Luke invented the ascension to answer questions about what happened to
Jesus' body if Jesus had come back after death. Only Luke has an ascension
where Jesus flies through the sky like Superman to heaven which is just
beyond the blue dome covering the flat earth.
JESUS' SECOND COMING - The mythical Christ of faith.
Pretend myth that CONTRADICTS what Jesus did in his first coming.
Jesus returns from beyond the blue dome covering the flat earth in the same
way Luke had him leave - flying through the sky like Superman.
Those who have misinterpretated Paul have a mythical raprture of "true
Christians" to:
1. meet Jesus Jesus in the air as he returns
OR
2. Be taken away from the non-fundamentalist earth in a magic disappearing
trick
You seem to ascribe to 2.
It will NEVER happen in time sp0ace histopry. Your subjective opinion is not
proof. A Bible Verse Vomit is not proof.
--
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
(a) a very strong emphasis on the inerrancy of the Bible, the absence from
it of any sort of error;
(b) a strong hostility to modern theology and to the methods, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible;
(c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
not really 'true Christians' at all.
- James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
I
>>> 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)
> > It is a MISINTERPRETATION of what Paul was saying.
>
> Yelling does not make you right. :)
It is not yel;ing but EMPHASIS as one cannot use BOLD or UNDERLINE to
highlight a word.
Get a life!
>>> This event is to take place during the time of the Laodicean Church
> > There is no such "time" as the Laodicean church was a PLACE.
>
> The seven churches?
Seven historical groups of Christians in seven different locations. Didn't
you ever learn geography? Revelartion was written to be READ in those
historic churches and references THEIR suituation in the 90s CE. It has
NOTHING to do with the 21st cenrtury whatsoever.
> You are part of that apostate church yourself and propagate their false
> beliefs and deceptions.
Fundamentalist propaganda with no basis in fact.
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
...
(c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
not really 'true Christians' at all.
- James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
> I have faith in and of God.
So do I. I have done since 1972.
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
...
I
> Sigh ... Rapture is an EMOTION and has nothing at all to do with being
> snatched away.
It is also wishful thinking based upon a desire to escape.
> The start of this is someone who portrays their thought processes because
> they discuss the return of JC in terms of the EMOTIONAL FEELINGS THEY
> DEMAND THAT PEOPLE FEEL.
>
> This is wonderful - where on earth does it say that everyone who is
> snatched up ... say those already dead - might be feeling this emotion?
>
> The name given to the theory starts by TELLING YOU the motives of the
> person who has pulled this doctrine from your of their belly button. Not
> what I call ... inspiring ... isn't it?
>
> Then we have "snatched away." But it says to meet him in the air as he
> comes ... so it is not snatched away but a greeting party.
Exactly. This is what biblical scholars have repeatedly stated. The
greeting party returns to earth where the messiah sets up his worldly
kingdom and establishes justice and peace.
If Jesus came via the usual methods of conception and birth then WHY would
he choose another method a second time? Couldn't he have used fl;ying
through the sky like Superman the first time?
> Hey ... tell me how the "mature christians" get snatched away because they
> are loved and the others (The jews are one subset of the ones who are to
> replace the Christians) are to be new believers, lacking the holy
> spirit, -
> and they are to go through what the mature and seasoned Christians were
> unable to go through ... so obviously G_d does not love the replacements
> like the mature christians who are such frigging inept failures that they
> cannot get a martyrs reward.
>
> Oh I KEEP FORGETTING.
> The NT promotes sacrifice and reward for the sacrifice and the testimony
> of
> such sacrifice - that they loved G_d more than they loved their life ...
> because they do not give a rats arse what G_d wants ... THEY ARE NOT
> ALLOWED TO SUFFER!
>
> This is what happens when a fear driven emotional christian is more
> interested in his or her experience ... rather than seeking G_d ... and in
> their selfishness that G_d loves them and they are not allowed to suffer.
> After all - JC suffered and nobody else is allowed to suffer!
It is also upon wishful thinking. They don't WANT to suffer and so
therefore the God made in their own image must not let them suffer.
> JC is your example .... except he is going to intervene to prevent you
> from
> being treated in a like manner!
>
> There is no Rapture!
> What a load of CRAP!
Amen. ;-)
I
> Sigh ... Rapture is an EMOTION and has nothing at all to do with being
> snatched away.
Stop yelling ... Oh ... you are using it as EMPHASIS.
> Sigh ....
....
> Yawn
I feel the same way about your ignorant posts and keep wondering when you
will think for yourself rather than live your life following man-made
fundfamentalist dogma from the 1800s.
> No further replies from me are necessary or warranted.
As usual, you run away when faced with the truth about your nonsense. How
will you ever learn the truth with your fear of the truth?
Peter B.
> "Peter B" <.@.> wrote:
>
>>> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part of
>>> other Christian groups worldwide.
>>> It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of one
>>> of
>>> Paul's letters.
>>
>> I know otherwise.
>
> No you don't.
>
>
I do, and you cannot handle it.
I
>>>> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part of
>>>> other Christian groups worldwide.
>>>> It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of
>>>> one
>>>> of Paul's letters.
>>> I know otherwise.
>> No you don't.
>
> I do
No you don't. Prove it.
Biblical scholars disagree with you .............
Peter B.
Other than oneness in Christ none are my brothers or sisters that were not
born in my family.
God designed and chose for himself a people, the Hebrew. You can read all
about it in Genesis.
As to the god of your choice? It is what you chose. God the Creator is just
that. You have no control, nor does anyone else. Only through His Son Jesus
does anyone have access to God since Jesus' death and resurrection. Any
other god is the god of this earth, Satan.
Peter B.
> "Peter B." <p...@b.der> wrote:
>
>>>>> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part of
>>>>> other Christian groups worldwide.
>>>>> It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of
>>>>> one
>>>>> of Paul's letters.
>>>> I know otherwise.
>>> No you don't.
>>
>> I do
>
> No you don't. Prove it.
>
You cannot accept it.
> Biblical scholars disagree with you .............
>
Sure, the liberal apostates. There are more that side with me.
I
> Only through His Son Jesus
> does anyone have access to God since Jesus' death and resurrection.
ALL have access to God and NONE require going through Jesus to get to God.
"in him (YAHWEH not Jesus of Nazareth) we LIVE, and MOVE, and EXIST" - Acts
17:28
How can you NOT know that in which ALL people live, move and exist?????
This is also clearly proven in the Old Testament where NONE knew Jesus but
yet still knew God.
"No-one comes to the father except through" Jesus is ONLY found in John's
gospel - the LEAST reliable gospel.
--
John's narrative is more fiction than history when compared with the
Synoptics. It is enough to look at his invented lengthy speeches, which are
totally incompatible with the style and content of the preaching of Jesus
preserved in the first three Gospels.
- Geza Vermes "The Authentic Gospel of Jesus" (Penguin:2003) p.371
(Geza Vermes is Professor Emeritus of Jewish Studies at Oxford University)
I
>>>>>> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> other Christian groups worldwide.
>>>>>> It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of
>>>>>> one of Paul's letters.
>>>>> I know otherwise.
>>>> No you don't.
>>> I do
>> No you don't. Prove it.
>
> You cannot accept it.
I don't accept your subjective irrational blind faith as evidence of
anything. Provide proof. You are unable to do so.
>> Biblical scholars disagree with you .............
>
> Sure, the liberal apostates.
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
....
r m
wrote:
> "Peter B" <.@.> wrote:
> >>> 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (King James Version)
> > > It is a MISINTERPRETATION of what Paul was saying.
>
> > Yelling does not make you right. :)
>
> It is not yel;ing but EMPHASIS as one cannot use BOLD or UNDERLINE to
> highlight a word.
>
> Get a life!
>
> >>> This event is to take place during the time of the Laodicean Church
> > > There is no such "time" as the Laodicean church was a PLACE.
>
> > The seven churches?
>
> Seven historical groups of Christians in seven different locations. Didn't
> you ever learn geography? Revelartion was written to be READ in those
> historic churches and references THEIR suituation in the 90s CE. It has
> NOTHING to do with the 21st cenrtury whatsoever.
I'll go along with that.
Last year an ACC participant implied Rev 3:16 toward me (judged as
lukewarm); but ignored my protestation that it was directed to a
specific wealthy church than to individuals.
>
> > You are part of that apostate church yourself and propagate their false
> > beliefs and deceptions.
>
> Fundamentalist propaganda with no basis in fact.
>
> The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
> ...
> (c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
> not really 'true Christians' at all.
> - James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
>
> > I have faith in and of God.
>
> So do I. I have done since 1972.
>
> The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
> ...
> (c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
> not really 'true Christians' at all.
> - James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
r
Sensii
> "Peter B."<p...@b.der> wrote:
>
>> Only through His Son Jesus
>> does anyone have access to God since Jesus' death and resurrection.
>
>
> ALL have access to God and NONE require going through Jesus to get to God.
>
> "in him (YAHWEH not Jesus of Nazareth) we LIVE, and MOVE, and EXIST" - Acts
> 17:28
>
> How can you NOT know that in which ALL people live, move and exist?????
>
> This is also clearly proven in the Old Testament where NONE knew Jesus but
> yet still knew God.
>
> "No-one comes to the father except through" Jesus is ONLY found in John's
> gospel - the LEAST reliable gospel.
>
Sensi:
I often wonder if that "No one comes to the father except through
Jesus," is referring to the Living Principles of God that Jesus practiced.
Show me a picture of Jesus and I'm going to have a look inside of him
and believe in that more so than his outer physical appearance.That part
is uncertain...The inner parts are *quite* certain and distinguished as
having godly *looks and quality.*
--
Never lose an opportunity of seeing anything that
is beautiful, for beauty is God's handwriting--
a wayside sacrament. Welcome it in every fair face,
in every fair sky, in every fair flower,
and thank God for it as a cup of blessing.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I
>> Revelation was written to be READ in those historic churches and
>> references THEIR >> suituation in the 90s CE. It has NOTHING to do with
>> the 21st cenrtury whatsoever.
>
> I'll go along with that.
>
> Last year an ACC participant implied Rev 3:16 toward me (judged as
> lukewarm); but ignored my protestation that it was directed to a
> specific wealthy church than to individuals.
Exactly! Revelation was also meant to be read aloud and not read silently
to oneself as text.
It is interesting that fundamentalists read this text - which is meant to be
taken literally with knowledge of symbols known to the churches at the
time - and read it as allegory for now. This is what James Barr spoke about
....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977)
In order to expound the Bible as thus inerrant, the fundamentalist
interpreter varies back and forward between the literal and non-literal
understandings, indeed he has to do so in order to obtain a Bible that is
error-free. p.40
What fundamentalists do pursue is a completely unprincipled - in the strict
sense unprincipled, because guided by no principle of interpretation -
approach, in which the only guiding criterion is that the Bible should, by
the sorts of truth that fundamentalists respect and follow, be true and not
in any sort of error. p.49
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I
>> ALL have access to God and NONE require going through Jesus to get to
>> God.
>> "in him (YAHWEH not Jesus of Nazareth) we LIVE, and MOVE, and EXIST" -
>> Acts
>> 17:28
>> How can you NOT know that in which ALL people live, move and exist?????
>> This is also clearly proven in the Old Testament where NONE knew Jesus
>> but
>> yet still knew God.
>> "No-one comes to the father except through" Jesus is ONLY found in John's
>> gospel - the LEAST reliable gospel.
>
> Sensi:
>
> I often wonder if that "No one comes to the father except through Jesus,"
> is referring to the Living Principles of God that Jesus practiced.
> Show me a picture of Jesus and I'm going to have a look inside of him and
> believe in that more so than his outer physical appearance.That part is
> uncertain...The inner parts are *quite* certain and distinguished as
> having godly *looks and quality.*
I think so. It appears to be alluding to "in Jesus' name" which is an
Aramiac idiom for "in Jesus method". In such a reading one cannot fully
know God unless one comes to God in Jesus' method - that is, using the same
principles that Jesus used.
r m
wrote:
> "r m" wrote:
> >> Revelation was written to be READ in those historic churches and
> >> references THEIR >> suituation in the 90s CE. It has NOTHING to do with
> >> the 21st cenrtury whatsoever.
>
> > I'll go along with that.
>
> > Last year an ACC participant implied Rev 3:16 toward me (judged as
> > lukewarm); but ignored my protestation that it was directed to a
> > specific wealthy church than to individuals.
>
> Exactly! Revelation was also meant to be read aloud and not read silently
> to oneself as text.
Well, given that personal copies of scripture is unheard of, that
would be likely.
>
> It is interesting that fundamentalists read this text - which is meant to be
> taken literally with knowledge of symbols known to the churches at the
> time - and read it as allegory for now. ...
Aye. That's how I've always been taught about this apocalypse. It
was written in a literary genre (not used in modern times) that makes
sense to the original readers but much lost to us.
Example given at church was an American encounter with the game of
cricket - strange format and terms (e.g. duck and maiden over) - all
not what it seems.
> ... This is what James Barr spoke about
> ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> from James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977)
>
> In order to expound the Bible as thus inerrant, the fundamentalist
> interpreter varies back and forward between the literal and non-literal
> understandings, indeed he has to do so in order to obtain a Bible that is
> error-free. p.40
>
> What fundamentalists do pursue is a completely unprincipled - in the strict
> sense unprincipled, because guided by no principle of interpretation -
> approach, in which the only guiding criterion is that the Bible should, by
> the sorts of truth that fundamentalists respect and follow, be true and not
> in any sort of error. p.49
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aye. Fundamentalist exegesis tends to be literalistic (taking words on
face-value). Spong sorta made a noise about that in his Rescuing the
Bible from Funamentalism.
r
Mordecai
You have reacted with total rejection to the affront of the idea that your
"current theology" might, just possibly - be wrong.
And yet, it is wrong.
Now have a think. What is "eventually going to happen" has nothing to so
with your ideas or mine, your interpretation or mine, your theory or mine.
Our ideas DO NOT MATTER.
If we are correct or in error - the outcome is going to be exactly the
same.
But you reacted with an outright rejection to another POV.
********************************************************************************
THIS IS THE LESSON!
And it is the most crucial issue - and it separates the learned from the
wise.
********************************************************************************
You have "someone else' to fight (me). I had to fight myself ... as I
tested "my own ideas" and found them wanting.
But the key is OUR OWN REACTION to new ideas.
You are reacting.
Think about your reactions.
Here is the task ... you are to right a note ** to yourself ** each day for
a week about how you feel and any notes you care to add about ** what you
think about how you feel. **
This is not a meaningless exercise. It is the key to wisdom - and the key
to wisdom is know yourself.
You, like me, react in certain ways to new ideas.
I am asking you to write down your reactions.
I am asking you to add any comments that you care to add about YOU as you
observe your own reactions.
The only person who will read your remarks is YOU ... they are for YOU,
written by YOU, and only to be read by YOU!
If you understand your "natural reaction" (and it is a natural reaction)
you can seek truth.
Otherwise, all you can do is search for the wisdom of others.
This is not about learning - it is the single roadblock which prevents
people from learning how to learn.
It is the method people use to trap others, it is used in advertising and
in politics.
It is used to manipulate others.
Once you are aware of your own natural reaction - you can overcome it.
And I will even tell you who will teach you ... YOU! You will note your
reactions ... and then think about them.
And then - I will tell you of my own reactions. There will be no surprises
... because they are natural and everyone has them.
If you seek wisdom - this is the first and hardest thing to overcome.
If you fail to overcome - you can never garner wisdom.
This is why it is so rare for people to be found by wisdom. Not by lack of
IQ - but the way we respond to ideas.
And, alas, so many very smart people fail to garner wisdom.
Mordecai
I wrote:
>
> "Mordecai" wrote:
>
> > Sigh ... Rapture is an EMOTION and has nothing at all to do with being
> > snatched away.
>
> It is also wishful thinking based upon a desire to escape.
>
> > The start of this is someone who portrays their thought processes because
> > they discuss the return of JC in terms of the EMOTIONAL FEELINGS THEY
> > DEMAND THAT PEOPLE FEEL.
> >
> > This is wonderful - where on earth does it say that everyone who is
> > snatched up ... say those already dead - might be feeling this emotion?
> >
> > The name given to the theory starts by TELLING YOU the motives of the
> > person who has pulled this doctrine from your of their belly button. Not
> > what I call ... inspiring ... isn't it?
> >
> > Then we have "snatched away." But it says to meet him in the air as he
> > comes ... so it is not snatched away but a greeting party.
>
> Exactly. This is what biblical scholars have repeatedly stated. The
> greeting party returns to earth where the messiah sets up his worldly
> kingdom and establishes justice and peace.
It is even WORSE than that.
The alternative theory is that there are the dead who are with JC.
They are to come back WITH JC to the earth.
They are to gather their ** PHYSICAL BODIES ** at that time - and they are
to go AWAY with JC as they are "taken out" ....
Oops.
Nobody has bothered to give a reason that 2000 year old dead bodies are to
be "taken out."
** NO! **
This is an outcome, not a cause. This is fruit, not the tree.
>
> > JC is your example .... except he is going to intervene to prevent you
> > from
> > being treated in a like manner!
> >
> > There is no Rapture!
> > What a load of CRAP!
>
> Amen. ;-)
--
I
>> > Then we have "snatched away." But it says to meet him in the air as he
>> > comes ... so it is not snatched away but a greeting party.
>>
>> Exactly. This is what biblical scholars have repeatedly stated. The
>> greeting party returns to earth where the messiah sets up his worldly
>> kingdom and establishes justice and peace.
>
> It is even WORSE than that.
>
> The alternative theory is that there are the dead who are with JC.
> They are to come back WITH JC to the earth.
> They are to gather their ** PHYSICAL BODIES ** at that time - and they are
> to go AWAY with JC as they are "taken out" ....
>
> Oops.
> Nobody has bothered to give a reason that 2000 year old dead bodies are to
> be "taken out."
One wonders what is supposed to happen to those who are not buried but
cremated. The atoms of such people are mostly recycled dust. My father was
cremated and his ashes thrown out into the sea. His "body" is now part of
the ocean and marine life.
Mordecai
We start with LANGUAGE with the most important Issue - the NAME of G_d.
Names of G_d contain ...
Job ... such as "policeman"
Authority ... "School master, politician.
Accountability - a judge is supposed to provide justice.
Relationships
And sometimes, a covenant like a marriage.
here we have a new name - never presented AS A NAME ... "Father."
This is not a claim that there are not references to G_d in the role of
father, but rather to claim a name and a relationship based upon this.
For example, G_d is described as a mother, but there is no NAME of g_d as a
mother. It is not unusual for a father to also do the role of a mother
(especially for a single father) ... but you relate to him as a father and
merely comment that he also can do the role of the mother as required.
Thus reading this - we start with a new name - Father.
The second part - again using language, is that G_d has many names.
An example, My G_d has a name that he took my people out of the land of
Egypt. Indeed he proclaims "I am the G_d who took you out of the land of
Egypt. THEREFORE ... "
What the "therefore" is, is not actually relevant. The issue is that in
proclaiming his name - and his relationships - he expects us to RELY upon
what he is and how he has acted to us in the past.
Notice names have consequences.
You who are not Jewish might have heard about the G_d who took the children
of Israel out of the land of Egypt. But you have not been taken out
yourself - and the "therefore" does not apply to you.
There are many names for G_d and each contains relationships.
The ONLY way to be taken out of the land of Egypt is to come out.
This is done each year at passover when G_d takes ME out of the land of
Egypt.
Thus the only way to come to G_d in the name of "the one who took me out of
the land of Egypt" is to become a Jew.
But - if you do not come as a Jew - come in the righteous of all nations
... in the names you are given.
All I have done is define Names in the language of the bible.
Let us look at what is said - in the light of the language of the jews.
JC said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to G_d (in the
name of) Father except by me."
It really is implicit in Hebrew and Aramaic to add in "name."
So JC is describing a new covenant and the only way to enter the new
covenant is through JC.
The pathway is ... way, truth and life.
There are so many cross meanings ... for example the discussion with the
samaritan woman discussing the pathways to G_d.
The present (at the time of the discussion, now 2000 years ago) - Jews come
knowing whom they worshipped.
The gentiles came without said knowledge.
The new way was in spirit and in truth.
You find salvation was to follow his message - enter into a pathway with
many aspects such as spirit and truth ... and enter into a covenant where
you can go to "daddy" and the advantages of the relationship of a son.
This ought to tie together a dozen concepts which are mentioned in the NT -
seemingly unrelated in any way. Now you find they are just expressing the
ideas of JC using the language of the Jews.
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00065.com> wrote in article
<4cc12a8c$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
> "Peter B" <.@.> wrote:
>
>> Americas 50-million strong Evangelical community is convinced that the
>> worlds future is foretold in Biblical prophecy - from the Rapture to
>> the Battle of Armageddon.
> ....
>> You do realize that at the time of the Rapture that all the Christians
>> would be gone, that it wouldn't be until almost seven years later that
>> the Battle of Armageddon would take place don't you?
>
>
> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part of
> other Christian groups worldwide.
>
> It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of one
> of Paul's letters.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> from John Dominic Crossan "God & Empire - Jesus against Rome, then and
> now" (HarperOne:2007)
>
> .. any given religion can generate horrible violence ... it is up to
> each religion's adherents to preempt extremism in theory and proscribe
> fanaticism in practice .. p.193
>
>
> There is, of ourse, a great difference between ideological violent
> rhetoric and physically violent action within faith-based religious
> extremism. ... The former action, however, often prepares for the
> latter, and in fact the latter cannot occur without the former. ... Here
> is one way of asking this chapter's maion question: do you think that
> the scenario of the Jenkins-LaHaye's Left Behind series could be derived
> as easily from the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount as from the Jesus in
> the Revelation of John? ... Do you think that American Christian
> fundamentalism is a dangerous and fantical delusion and, if yes, is that
> fanatical delusion inside or outside the Bible itself? pp. 196-197
The "Left Behind" scenario of Jenkins and LaHaye follows a well
established tradition of fear mongering. They describe events in the
reign of the Antichrist, at the end of the age; they claim he is an
individual human rather than a "spirit of antichrist" such as John
referred to. [1 John 4:3] John also spoke of "many antichrists" [1 John
2:18] who were already in the world.
Among those who promoted the idea of a single person as the Antichrist is
the Jesuit scholar and cardinal Roberto Bellarmine (1542-1621) who
appealed to popular legends and myths, that said Antichrist would be a
person, a Jew from the tribe of Dan, who would reign in the last days,
and who would be accepted as the promised Messiah by the Jews.
Bellarmine insisted that the Antichrist must be a person. He wrote: "All
Catholics think thus that the Antichrist will be one certain man; but all
heretics teach... that Antichrist is expressly declared to be not a
single person, but an individual throne or absolute kingdom, and apostate
seat of those who rule over the church."
[Quoted in: Bohr, Steven P. Futurism's Incredible Journey. Amazing Facts,
2009. p. 46.]
http://books.google.com/books?id=j2kZltYFbl0C
Bellarmine interpreted the time periods in Revelation 11, 12, and 13, 42
months and 1,260 days, as a literal three and a half years. He said,
"Antichrist will not reign except for three years and a half. But the
pope has now reigned spiritually in the church more than 1500 years; nor
can anyone be pointed out who has been accepted for Antichrist, who as
ruled exactly three and one half years; therefore the Pope is not
Antichrist. Then Antichrist has not yet come."
A literalistic approach to the Scriptures was a great help to Bellarmine,
who argued: "The Pope is not antichrist since indeed his throne is not in
Jerusalem, nor in the temple of Solomon; surely it is credible that from
the year 600, no Roman pontiff has even been in Jerusalem."
These doctrines and fables about the personal Antichrist of the future
were already popular among ignorant folk in Europe, who had been taught
for centuries from the Compendium theologiae veritatis, by Hugo Ripelin
(1205-1268) of Strasburg, a Dominican theologian. It is said to have been
the most popular manual on scholastic theology in Europe over a period of
about four centuries. The 7th book of this work was about "Last Things"
and it featured scary stories about the future Antichrist, in a fashion
similar in some ways, to that taken up by Lahaye and Jenkins in the
modern era. It was basically popular legend and fiction, mixed in with
Biblical prophecy.
Hugo's doctrine on the Antichrist resembled that of Adso of Montier-en-Der
in the tenth century. Adso died in 992 AD. Andrew Gow wrote:
<quote>
Hugo's Compendium theologicae veritatis was the most widespread basic
sketch of scholastic theology in the later Middle Ages and Reformation
era. It went through almost 40 printings, and owed much of its medieval
vogue to the fact that it was greatly indebted to Bonaventure's
'Breviloquium' and to the works of Albert the Great; indeed, it was
generally mistaken for the work of one or the other. Hugo followed the
Tiburtine Sibyl and Adso concerning the descent of the Antichrist, who
was to be born of the Jewish tribe of Dan. He would claim to be the
Jewish Messiah, and the Jewish people would be his special and foremost
adherents. Hugo was not above inventing sources for this assertion. His
thinking on the Antichrist is concrete and personal, whereas the Glossa
ordinaria he carelessly cites calls the Beast of Rev. 13,1, 'in a
spiritual sense the Antichrist, or generally the entire number of the
wicked'. The late-medieval Antichrist book is based largely on Hugo's
popularizing and literalist exegetical framework.
</quote>
[Gow, Andrew. Jewish Shock-Troops of the Apocalypse: Antichrist and the
End, 1200-1600. Journal for Millennial Studies, Vol 1. Spring 1998.]
http://www.bu.edu/mille/publications/summer98/agow.pdf
Hugo embellished Bible prophecy with tales of the Red Jews, the Amazons,
and Gog and Magog, who, it said, will break out and descend upon
Christendom at the end of the age. Hugo wrote: "Concerning Gog and Magog
some say they are the Ten Tribes enclosed within the Caspian Mountains,
however in such a way that they might leave if they were permitted; but
they are not permitted to do so by the Queen of the Amazons, under whose
rule and jurisdiction they live."
Hugo Ripelin's writings about a Jewish Antichrist figure, Gow suggests,
along with similar works by others, contributed to antisemitic attitudes
in Europe. Gow wrote:
<quote>
In German-language texts of the 14th and 15th centuries, the especially
threatening Red Jews were among the first to be assigned to the ranks of
the Antichrist. First the Jews, then the Red Jews were servants of
Antichrist. The part assigned to the Red Jews in the final drama was a
'step up' in the 'escalation of antisemitism' that included canon law
restrictions, accusations of sacrilege and ritual murder, suspicions of a
diabolical role in the entourage of Antichrist, expulsion and forced
conversion. The re-assignment of the Jews from 'conversion duty' to
active service in the army of the Antichrist had occurred by the time
Hugo Ripelin wrote his theological encyclopedia; it took fifty years more
for the idea to start showing up in other genres, after which time it
became a commonplace of antisemitic Christian apocalypticism.
</quote>
Hugo Ripelin's teaching about an individual Antichrist, and similar
sensational works, were significant in promoting antisemitism in Europe
for centuries. These old traditions were later exploited by German
patriots and eventually by the Nazis. Ripelin's doctrine implied the
prophetic 1,260 days of Revelation is a literal three and a half years at
the end of the age, which contrasts with his contemporary and fellow
Dominican, Thomas Aquinas, who said of the same period of 1,260 days:
"The thousand two hundred sixty days mentioned in the Apocalypse (12:6)
denote all the time during which the Church endures, and not any definite
number of years. The reason whereof is because the preaching of Christ on
which the Church is built lasted three years and a half, which time
contains almost an equal number of days as the aforesaid number. Again
the number of days appointed by Daniel does not refer to a number of
years to elapse before the end of the world or until the preaching of
Antichrist, but to the time of Antichrist's preaching and the duration of
his persecution."
[Aquinas, Thomas. Summa Theologica. Treatise on the resurrection.
Question 77.2.2.]
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/aquinas/summa/sum623.htm
So a literal reading of the 1,260 days was rejected by Aquinas, and
rightly so. Hugo Ripelin promoted a flawed doctrine, as can be shown very
easily, since 1,260 days are not equal to three and a half years, or to
42 months. For 42 lunar months, the number of days is about 1,240; for
three and a half solar years, the number of days is 1,278. Those who say
the 1,260 days of Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 is a literal three and a half
years, therefore, promote a flawed interpretation and are in error. This
includes Lahaye and Jenkins.
>
> ... two separate trash bins, one marked "Bin of Unconcern" and the other
> "Bin of Disbelief". ... Into which of the two bins do I put faith claims
> of future rapture, global tribulation, apocalyptic vision, divine
> violence, and the enrtire Left Behind scenario? Should I consider them
> simply as religious escapisim, transcendental snake oil, or the latest
> view from Cloud-Cuckoo-Land so that I can dep[osit them speedily into
> the Bin of Unconcern? Is seriously opposing them akin to
> machine-gunning butterflies? My answer is emphatically negative. For all
> of that program I need Disbelief. I need, in fact, faith-based,
> Bible-based, and Christianity-based rejection, disbelief, and
> anti-belief. pp.197-198
The two trash bins idea is a bit like the parable of the tares in Matt.
13. There were two kinds of seed sown in a field, wheat and tares; at the
end of the world, the tares are gathered and burned up. Jesus said: "As
therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be
in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and
they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them
which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there
shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine
forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear,
let him hear." [Matthew 13:40-43]
Flawed interpretations of the prophecies of Revelation like that of
Ripelin, Bellarmine, and Lahaye etc., are among the things that offend,
that are "cast into a furnace of fire."
--
Doug
Sensii
Sensi:
I see how that all plays a part.
>
> here we have a new name - never presented AS A NAME ... "Father."
> This is not a claim that there are not references to G_d in the role of
> father, but rather to claim a name and a relationship based upon this.
>
> For example, G_d is described as a mother, but there is no NAME of g_d as a
> mother. It is not unusual for a father to also do the role of a mother
> (especially for a single father) ... but you relate to him as a father and
> merely comment that he also can do the role of the mother as required.
>
Sensi:
Agreed.
> Thus reading this - we start with a new name - Father.
>
> The second part - again using language, is that G_d has many names.
> An example, My G_d has a name that he took my people out of the land of
> Egypt. Indeed he proclaims "I am the G_d who took you out of the land of
> Egypt. THEREFORE ... "
> What the "therefore" is, is not actually relevant. The issue is that in
> proclaiming his name - and his relationships - he expects us to RELY upon
> what he is and how he has acted to us in the past.
Sensi:
I think I understand that.
>
> Notice names have consequences.
> You who are not Jewish might have heard about the G_d who took the children
> of Israel out of the land of Egypt. But you have not been taken out
> yourself - and the "therefore" does not apply to you.
Sensi:
I think I understand that. Not sure that we'd word it the same though.
>
> There are many names for G_d and each contains relationships.
> The ONLY way to be taken out of the land of Egypt is to come out.
> This is done each year at passover when G_d takes ME out of the land of
> Egypt.
Sensi:
Egypt is a state of being???
Sometimes we get swallowed up in emotional barriers and ask God to help
us to find a way to leave that mental state behind.
> Thus the only way to come to G_d in the name of "the one who took me out of
> the land of Egypt" is to become a Jew.
> But - if you do not come as a Jew - come in the righteous of all nations
> ... in the names you are given.
>
> All I have done is define Names in the language of the bible.
>
> Let us look at what is said - in the light of the language of the jews.
> JC said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to G_d (in the
> name of) Father except by me."
>
> It really is implicit in Hebrew and Aramaic to add in "name."
> So JC is describing a new covenant and the only way to enter the new
> covenant is through JC.
> The pathway is ... way, truth and life.
Sensi:
As I understand it, the way is an actual livable way, the truth is
actually living out the principles that Jesus taught and the life is
what it says.. Life as opposed to dead, ignorant or excused from having
to do so.
I know very little about the Jewish religion per book learning. The area
I live in has no Jewish people as far as the religion goes. I would be
interested in learning the Jewish way of how they *understand* G_d. I'm
not opposed to learning although some people seem to think one should
not be allowed to learn anything other than what they already know. I'd
rather learn and hear from the Jewish side than the crowd that shows
opposition for people of the Jewish folk. Thank you for the little I do
learn..
>
> There are so many cross meanings ... for example the discussion with the
> samaritan woman discussing the pathways to G_d.
> The present (at the time of the discussion, now 2000 years ago) - Jews come
> knowing whom they worshipped.
> The gentiles came without said knowledge.
> The new way was in spirit and in truth.
>
Sensi:
Spirit and truth sounds right.. Their is no problem with truth it's
just learning to identify truths in all things.
> You find salvation was to follow his message - enter into a pathway with
> many aspects such as spirit and truth ... and enter into a covenant where
> you can go to "daddy" and the advantages of the relationship of a son.
>
Sensi:
I have no problem with that.
>
> This ought to tie together a dozen concepts which are mentioned in the NT -
> seemingly unrelated in any way. Now you find they are just expressing the
> ideas of JC using the language of the Jews.
>
>
Sensi:
Thank you, again.
Peter B,
I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00071.com says...
>
> "Peter B." <p...@b.der> wrote:
>
> > Only through His Son Jesus
> > does anyone have access to God since Jesus' death and resurrection.
>
>
> ALL have access to God and NONE require going through Jesus to get to God.
>
> "in him (YAHWEH not Jesus of Nazareth) we LIVE, and MOVE, and EXIST" - Acts
> 17:28
>
You are so predictable, yet you are wrong here. He was mentioned
directly in verse 29 Him does not translate to Yahweh or a derivative
thereof. The word in verse 29 is also the same word that is mentioned
many times in the NT so as to say, "Jesus is God" as was previously
mentioned to you numerous times.
> How can you NOT know that in which ALL people live, move and exist?????
>
You move etc. by His permission, it did not state that you had any
access.
> This is also clearly proven in the Old Testament where NONE knew Jesus but
> yet still knew God.
>
They knew of Jesus in the Old Testament as their soon coming King, they
knew He was God coming as a man. Fact is that you quoted some of it a
while back that was written by a Jew, taken strictly from the OT and
treated as if it was yet to come.
> "No-one comes to the father except through" Jesus is ONLY found in John's
> gospel - the LEAST reliable gospel.
Only by those who deny the truths contained therein. People that do
their best to poison the well.
I
I
>> > Only through His Son Jesus
>> > does anyone have access to God since Jesus' death and resurrection.
>> ALL have access to God and NONE require going through Jesus to get to
>> God.
>> "in him (YAHWEH not Jesus of Nazareth) we LIVE, and MOVE, and EXIST" -
>> Acts
>> 17:28
>
> You are so predictable, yet you are wrong here.
Where?
> He was mentioned
> directly in verse 29 Him does not translate to Yahweh or a derivative
> thereof.
Yes it does directly relate to Yahweh and NOT Jesuis of Nazareth. It is a
PAGAN verse originally atrtributed to Zeus but which Paul has adapted.
> The word in verse 29 is also the same word that is mentioned
> many times in the NT so as to say, "Jesus is God" as was previously
> mentioned to you numerous times.
"theos" refers to the One God Yahweh and nort the human Jesus of Nazareth.
Your dyslexia is showing again.
Great Sage Itchy
<sensi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I often wonder if that "No one comes to the father except through
> Jesus," is referring to the Living Principles of God that Jesus practiced.
> Show me a picture of Jesus and I'm going to have a look inside of him
> and believe in that more so than his outer physical appearance.That part
> is uncertain...The inner parts are *quite* certain and distinguished as
> having godly *looks and quality.*
>
This is the best and smartest response to the meaning of "No one comes
to the father except...".
Jesus was a teacher of enlightenment. A teacher of the real truth. To
"come to the Father", to "have everlasting life", to "enter the
Kingdom" all mean the same thing: to experience Oneness, i.e.
enlightenment, satori, non-ego.
Jesus taught a method that is the truest, most direct path to
enlightenment. That part of his teachings is not in the bible.
Jesus is "LORD" is the mantra of Evangelical Christianity, which I call
EGO-Christianity. You will NEVER get an EGO-Christian to give up his
"LORD". It's what makes the EGO-Christian special. The more powerful
Jesus becomes, the more powerful and glorious the future for the
EGO-Christian.
The weak are attracted to POWER. Evil people are using this fact to
manioulate Christianity for political reasons. The same thing is going
on in the Muslim world.
And the more glorious
Great Sage Itchy
Sage Itchy <GSi...@itchyandscratchy.com> wrote:
> Jesus is "LORD" is the mantra of Evangelical Christianity, which I call
> EGO-Christianity. You will NEVER get an EGO-Christian to give up his
> "LORD". It's what makes the EGO-Christian special. The more powerful
> Jesus becomes, the more powerful and glorious the future for the
> EGO-Christian.
> The weak are attracted to POWER. Evil people are using this fact to
> manioulate Christianity for political reasons. The same thing is going
> on in the Muslim world.
The opposite side of this coin is: The greater the glory of "LORD"
Jesus, the greater the sacrifice that will be made in His Name.
Sensii
> In article<i9-dnW0hUu4r0F_R...@giganews.com>, Sensii
> <sensi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I often wonder if that "No one comes to the father except through
>> Jesus," is referring to the Living Principles of God that Jesus practiced.
>> Show me a picture of Jesus and I'm going to have a look inside of him
>> and believe in that more so than his outer physical appearance.That part
>> is uncertain...The inner parts are *quite* certain and distinguished as
>> having godly *looks and quality.*
>>
> This is the best and smartest response to the meaning of "No one comes
> to the father except...".
> Jesus was a teacher of enlightenment. A teacher of the real truth. To
> "come to the Father", to "have everlasting life", to "enter the
> Kingdom" all mean the same thing: to experience Oneness, i.e.
> enlightenment, satori, non-ego.
> Jesus taught a method that is the truest, most direct path to
> enlightenment. That part of his teachings is not in the bible.
Sensi:
Thank you and I'm in agreement with you on Jesus being a teacher of
enlightenment as our brother. Those teachings are about living the
*real life* and not using Jesus as an excuse to hide *under* a wooden
cross waling and gnashing at everyone for not being miserable, put out
and sore afraid of life.
To me He *was* a living cross. a tree of life as he often displayed how
he planted himself on earth, straight up with God where in the middle
was a heart of gold, spread his arms as branches to include all mankind
and shed the blood of truth everywhere he went during his life and not
only that he was the ultimate fruit of the spirit as the tree is
symbolically known for.
>
> Jesus is "LORD" is the mantra of Evangelical Christianity, which I call
> EGO-Christianity. You will NEVER get an EGO-Christian to give up his
> "LORD". It's what makes the EGO-Christian special. The more powerful
> Jesus becomes, the more powerful and glorious the future for the
> EGO-Christian.
> The weak are attracted to POWER. Evil people are using this fact to
> manioulate Christianity for political reasons. The same thing is going
> on in the Muslim world.
>
> And the more glorious
Sensi:
Yep, this is true. It's the wrong kind of power of the people.
Great Sage Itchy
<sensi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well said!
It got awfilly quiet around this article. What's the matter,
EGO-Christians? Nothing in defence of your "LORD" (God King Bufu)?
Peter B,
I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00079.com says...
>
> "Peter B," <P...@b.org> wrote:
>
> >> > Only through His Son Jesus
> >> > does anyone have access to God since Jesus' death and resurrection.
> >> ALL have access to God and NONE require going through Jesus to get to
> >> God.
> >> "in him (YAHWEH not Jesus of Nazareth) we LIVE, and MOVE, and EXIST" -
> >> Acts
> >> 17:28
> >
> > You are so predictable, yet you are wrong here.
>
> Where?
>
You snipped out the answer and then injected a question. To what end?
> > He was mentioned
> > directly in verse 29 Him does not translate to Yahweh or a derivative
> > thereof.
>
> Yes it does directly relate to Yahweh and NOT Jesuis of Nazareth. It is a
> PAGAN verse originally atrtributed to Zeus but which Paul has adapted.
>
Wrong, you have no proof of that. If you think so then cite the
original article and author from before 150 AD not some current day
apostate.
>
> > The word in verse 29 is also the same word that is mentioned
> > many times in the NT so as to say, "Jesus is God" as was previously
> > mentioned to you numerous times.
>
> "theos" refers to the One God Yahweh and nort the human Jesus of Nazareth.
>
You don't even know what is in the verse, your assumptions are
incorrect. Your time is growing short.
> Your dyslexia is showing again.
>
Really, lol, "nort" <snort>
Peter B,
spam)"@internode.on.net says...
>
>
> You have reacted with total rejection to the affront of the idea that your
> "current theology" might, just possibly - be wrong.
> And yet, it is wrong.
>
Not so. I received the answer from the Lord. He replied to a specific
question of mine. He not only answered it but proved it by various
passages in the Bible.
Your assumptions are groundless. They are based on you and your state.
I already had enough of the discourse amongst various believers and
some non-believers. I got fed up with it all and decided I was going to
ask the Lord for an answer once and for all. I received the answer.
It is also fixed in His Word. There is no room for doubt about it.
So ask yourself since I have already been there done that. Why does it
bother you so?
Peter B,
I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00071.com says...
>
> "Peter B." <p...@b.der> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>> other Christian groups worldwide.
> >>>>>> It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of
> >>>>>> one of Paul's letters.
> >>>>> I know otherwise.
> >>>> No you don't.
> >>> I do
> >> No you don't. Prove it.
> >
> > You cannot accept it.
>
> I don't accept your subjective irrational blind faith as evidence of
> anything. Provide proof. You are unable to do so.
>
Like most everything else, you snipped and didn't bother reading it.
If you should live so long, without change, you will go through the
tribulation as one of those from the Laodicean Church.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. Those without faith
should not expect to receive anything from God when they pray.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
yet seen.
Faith does not equate to religion by definition.
I
>> >> > Only through His Son Jesus
>> >> > does anyone have access to God since Jesus' death and resurrection.
>> >> ALL have access to God and NONE require going through Jesus to get to
>> >> God.
>> >> "in him (YAHWEH not Jesus of Nazareth) we LIVE, and MOVE, and EXIST" -
>> >> Acts
>> >> 17:28
>> > You are so predictable, yet you are wrong here.
>> Where?
>
> You snipped out the answer and then injected a question. To what end?
You didn'yt answer the question in yopur repeating of fundamentalist
man-made dogma. WHERE am i wriong that ALL have access to God? Do yopu
think only fundamentalists have access to God?
>> > He was mentioned directly in verse 29 Him does not translate to Yahweh
>> > or a
>>> derivative thereof.
>> Yes it does directly relate to Yahweh and NOT Jesus of Nazareth. It is a
>> PAGAN verse originally atrtributed to Zeus but which Paul has adapted.
>
> Wrong, you have no proof of that.
Again your do not know what you are talking about ....
From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New
York:1951] ...
" ... the example of Moses, Daniel, and Paul, who were skilful in the
learning of the Egyptians, Chaldeans, and Greeks, which could not possibly
be without reading their books of all sorts, in Paul especially, who thought
it no defilement to insert into Holy Scripture the sentences of three Greek
poets, and one of them a tragedian ..." (Acts 17:28 from Aratus; 1
Corinthians 15:33 from Euripides; Titus 1:12 from Epimenides) p. 14
The "Him" in Acts 17:29 is Yahweh and Jesus of Nazareth. "God's offspring"
reklates to verse 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As
some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'. Inorther words
we are children of GOD THE FATHER and NOT Jesus of Nazareth.
Pleaee PROVE your qassumption that it relatesd to Jesus of nazareth. HOW are
we Jesus' children?????
>> Your dyslexia is showing again.
>
> Really
Really.
--
The most pronounced characteristics [of fundamentalists] are the following:
(a) a very strong emphasis on the inerrancy of the Bible, the absence from
it of any sort of error;
(b) a strong hostility to modern theology and to the methods, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible;
(c) an assurance that those who do not share their religious viewpoint are
not really 'true Christians' at all.
- James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977) p.1
I
> I received the answer from the Lord.
....
> I already had enough of the discourse amongst various believers and
> some non-believers. I got fed up with it all and decided I was going to
> ask the Lord for an answer once and for all. I received the answer.
Fundamentalist nonsense!
I
>> >>>>>> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not
>> >>>>>> part
>> >>>>>> of other Christian groups worldwide.
>> >>>>>> It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading
>> >>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> one of Paul's letters.
>> >>>>> I know otherwise.
>> >>>> No you don't.
>> >>> I do
>> >> No you don't. Prove it.
>> > You cannot accept it.
>> I don't accept your subjective irrational blind faith as evidence of
>> anything. Provide proof. You are unable to do so.
>
> Like most everything else, you snipped and didn't bother reading it.
You DIDN'T provide PROOF.
Your subjective fundamentalist man-made interpretation of a Bible Verse
Vomit is NOT PROOF.
> If you should live so long, without change, you will go through the
> tribulation as one of those from the Laodicean Church.
It will NEVER happen in time / space history.
> Without faith it is impossible to please God. Those without faith
> should not expect to receive anything from God when they pray.
WHO says I have no faith in the same One God Yahweh whom Jesus
worshipped?????
r m
> In article <4cc2470...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
> I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00071.com says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Peter B." <p...@b.der> wrote:
>
> > >>>>>> The Rapture is an American fundamentalist obsession that is not part
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>> other Christian groups worldwide.
> > >>>>>> It will never happen in time / space history. It is a misreading of
> > >>>>>> one of Paul's letters.
> > >>>>> I know otherwise.
> > >>>> No you don't.
> > >>> I do
> > >> No you don't. Prove it.
>
> > > You cannot accept it.
>
> > I don't accept your subjective irrational blind faith as evidence of
> > anything. Provide proof. You are unable to do so.
>
> Like most everything else, you snipped and didn't bother reading it.
> If you should live so long, without change, you will go through the
> tribulation as one of those from the Laodicean Church.
The place is now an archeological ruin. Mark lives elsewhere.
Frank says that the Trib is yet to occur (after the Rapture)
Vera observes that the Trib has already started (given what's
happening in Palestine)
Fred says the Trib is yet to come, and will straddle both sides of the
Rapture.
I
> > If you should live so long, without change, you will go through the
>> tribulation as one of those from the Laodicean Church.
>
> The place is now an archeological ruin.
Making it extremely difficult for the prophecies concerning it's church to
happen literally in the "last days" if now is the "last days".
> Mark lives elsewhere.
Definitely not Laodicea.
> Frank says that the Trib is yet to occur (after the Rapture)
> Vera observes that the Trib has already started (given what's
> happening in Palestine)
> Fred says the Trib is yet to come, and will straddle both sides of the
> Rapture.
Others say the Rapture is merely an invention of John Nelson Darby (1800 -
1882).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from Karen Armstrong "The Battle For God: Fundamentalism in Judaism,
Christianity and Islam" (Harper Perennial: 2000)
The new apocalyptic vision that took root in America during the late
nineteenth century is called premillenialism, because it envisioned Christ
returning to earth before he established his thousand year reign. (The older
and more optimistic postmillenialism of the Enlightenment, which was
cultivated by liberal Protestants, imagined human beings inaugurating God's
Kingdom by their own efforts: Christ would only return to earth after the
millenium was established.) The new premillenialism was preached in America
by the Englishman John Nelson Darby (1800-82)... Darby divided the whole of
salvation history into seven epochs or "dispensations", a scheme derived
from a careful reading of scripture. pp. 137-138
Darby maintained that just before the beginning of the Tribulation there
would be a "Rapture", a snatching up of born-again Christians, who would be
taken up to heaven and so would escape the terrible sufferings of the Last
Days. ... Premillenialism was a fantasy of revenge: the elect imagined
themselves gazing down on the sufferings of those who had jeered at their
beliefs, ignored, ridiculed, and marginalized their faith, and now, too
late, realized their error. A popular picture found in the homes of many
Protestant fundamentalists today shows a man cutting the grass outside his
house, gazing in astonishment as his born-again wife is raptured out of an
upsatirs window. Like many concrete depictions of mythical events, the
scene looks a little absurd, but the reality it purports to present is
cruel, divisive, and tragic. p. 139
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Great Sage Itchy
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00083.com> wrote:
> You didn'yt answer the question in yopur repeating of fundamentalist
> man-made dogma. WHERE am i wriong that ALL have access to God? Do yopu
> think only fundamentalists have access to God?
>
Evamgelical "Christianity" is egotism and nazism turned into a
"religion", and "Master Race" ideology. Created especially for losers,
creeps, racists, bigots, and haters, i.e. "Teabaggers".
I
> Evangelical "Christianity" is egotism and nazism turned into a
> "religion", and "Master Race" ideology. Created especially for losers,
> creeps, racists, bigots, and haters, i.e. "Teabaggers".
That is certainly the case with fundamentalists who opposed black rights in
Martin Luther King Jr's day and currently oppose gay rights and women
clergy. They wish to drag science back to the Dark Ages with "creationism"
and repeatedly ban art works. Jewish Jesus would not be welcome in their
churches as he looks like a middle-eastern terrorist.
Mordecai
"Peter B," wrote:
>
> In article <4CC2C15F...@internode.on.net>, "mldavis(please dont
> spam)"@internode.on.net says...
> >
> >
> > You have reacted with total rejection to the affront of the idea that your
> > "current theology" might, just possibly - be wrong.
> > And yet, it is wrong.
> >
>
> Not so. I received the answer from the Lord. He replied to a specific
> question of mine. He not only answered it but proved it by various
> passages in the Bible.
>
We will see - that is the least of the issues.
I will get to it later.
I will give you a tiny bit of my life. I was ... instructed ... to go to
university.
I knew I was required to go - but I had no idea if I would finish the
course I chose.
It eventuated that I did not, because of health issues ...
The course i chose also happened to be irrelevant - but the maths ... ah
the maths.
Four contact hours and eight associated hours doing pure mathematics -
proofs, creating them, examining them, destroying them ... great fun.
It was later after i left university that I took the skill of creating and
dissecting proofs and applied it to the real world. It is astonishing that
having been taught how to think - where you can apply the logic. I used it
on all sorts of things from politics to science to philosophy.
For example - I do not believe in democracy. The idea that "bring democracy
to Iraq will fix the problems" is a laugh. Not that I am against democracy
- I just have no faith in it.
It is JUST a political system and it is a good one in some cases but not in
others. It is NOT "the answer." JC wants to set up a kingdom - guess he is
not into democracy either.
I know what it means to live "everything which can be shaken" because I did
this to myself.
Every idea I could find I tested - holding on to the good and discarding
the rest. And it was in every aspect of my life, not just religious.
And here is the key. The first thing i tested outside of mathematics - it
might have been democracy with all the emotional baggage we added to the
word for all I can remember ...
Anyway - the first idea I tested - failed.
And I went into a depression for about four days.
It was not a severe depression, but it was a real depression.
Something was WRONG.
However, I did not move my stance (false is false) and after four days, the
depression lifted and I was free to look- free to make a choice on the
issue at hand.
BTW - the key was not in rejecting the idea - I just asked the question of
"Is this belief true?" and that sparked the depression. It was only after
the depression lifted that I could examine the issue and test it.
The second thing I tested - I had a far less severe depression and it
lasted a couple of days. The third - hardly any depression - and later only
the joy as I rejoiced in the freedom of new ideas, greater knowledge,
better understandings.
EVERY TIME my ideas were questioned - I learned to be delighted.
But at the start - I was given to depression.
It is the biggest road block to wisdom.
I have walked the road Peter ... I know well the first hurdle upon it.
This is what happened to you, you were so agitated on the issue because the
thought you MIGHT be wrong stirred up this depression.
Most people who start the journey feel the depression - think "there is
something wrong" and do not walk the road. After all - asking the first
question generates the depression! Therefore the answer is "do not ask the
question."
And thus - wisdom cannot come.
I do not know WHY this path has such a trap upon it, but it does.
Have a long think ... because there is so much more to understand about
this path.
It needs to be EXPERIENCED, not talked about.
Which is why I have been waiting for you. Giving you answers would not be a
kindness. You have to choose, and you have to experience for yourself. It
is your life, and the road to wisdom is only one possible road. I can say
it is a good road to walk ... but there are many roads.
We will get back to "rapture" much later - unless you decide you do not
want wisdom.
You are not ready to test yet.
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00072.com> wrote in article
<4cc26cdd$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
> "r m" wrote:
>
>>> Revelation was written to be READ in those historic churches and
>>> references THEIR >> suituation in the 90s CE. It has NOTHING to do
>>> with the 21st cenrtury whatsoever.
>>
>> I'll go along with that.
>>
>> Last year an ACC participant implied Rev 3:16 toward me (judged as
>> lukewarm); but ignored my protestation that it was directed to a
>> specific wealthy church than to individuals.
>
>
> Exactly! Revelation was also meant to be read aloud and not read
> silently to oneself as text.
>
> It is interesting that fundamentalists read this text - which is meant
> to be taken literally with knowledge of symbols known to the churches at
> the time - and read it as allegory for now. This is what James Barr
> spoke about ....
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> from James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977)
>
> In order to expound the Bible as thus inerrant, the fundamentalist
> interpreter varies back and forward between the literal and non-literal
> understandings, indeed he has to do so in order to obtain a Bible that
> is error-free. p.40
>
> What fundamentalists do pursue is a completely unprincipled - in the
> strict sense unprincipled, because guided by no principle of
> interpretation - approach, in which the only guiding criterion is that
> the Bible should, by the sorts of truth that fundamentalists respect and
> follow, be true and not in any sort of error. p.49
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Many fundamentalists, and dispensationalists, like John N. Darby, have
sought to "establish the vision." That is, they seek to bring about the
fulfilment of biblical prophecy, according to their interpretation of it.
The role of dispensationalists such as William Eugene Blackstone,
(1841-1935) in establishing the modern Jewish state, is well known.
Blackstone was influenced by Dwight Lyman Moody, James H. Brookes, and
John Nelson Darby, and was a Christian Zionist.
IMO, their approach fits one of the prophecies of Daniel: "the robbers of
thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall
fall." [Daniel 11:14.]
Why are they called "robbers of thy people"?
One of the effects of Darby's dispensationalism was that it deprived
Christians of the benefit of understanding the prophecies that apply to
the church. Their doctrine said that there are no OT prophecies that
apply to the church, as the church age is a "parenthesis" in God's plan,
which is primarily about the future supremacy of Jews over the nations,
in an earthly Messianic kingdom.
But if that were true, why would the apostle Peter encourage believers to
study prophecy, and "take heed" to it, if it does not apply to the church?
2 Peter 1:19
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye
take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day
dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
From Peter's words, it would seem prophecy does indeed apply to the
church in this age, rather than Jews in a future one. Evidently, Darby
and his followers disagreed.
The doctrine of dispensationalism, as taught in 20th century America,
claimed that the prophecies of Revelation from chapter 4 to 18 do not
apply to the church, but instead were about a future tribulation, and
many of the prophecies in those chapters apply to the Jews, rather than
the church. They say, the church will be "raptured" up to heaven, before
most of it begins to take place. It is the ultimate escapism!
Thus they teach that there will be 144,000 Jewish male evangelists in the
tribulation, all of them virgins! And similar tall tales.
Another kind of escapism is the doctrine of a "place of safety," that was
preached by the followers of American preacher H.W. Armstrong. This
doctrine has a role very similar to the "rapture" theory of Darby.
Armstrong's church accepted much of the theory of dispensationalism, but
they rejected his secret rapture idea. The rapture doctrine was made
popular by J. N. Darby, C. I. Scofield, Lewis Sperry Chafer, John
Walvoord, Dwight Pentecost, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye etc.
Instead of the rapture doctrine, Armstrong's ministers speculated in
sermons and wrote articles in the church's magazine, "The Good News,"
about the church's belief that faithful followers would be protected from
the horrors of the future tribulation that they believed will destroy
much of the world, in a desert area of Jordan, known as Petra. This, they
said, would be a "place of safety" where the believers from all over the
world would live for three and a half years, and where they would be
supernaturally protected.
The following references to published articles on a "Place of Safety" by
Armstrong's ministers are included in an article by Richard C. Nickels,
"Petra and the Place of Safety."
http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/127.petra.html
Good News magazine, published by the Worldwide Church of God:
Hoeh, Herman L. "We Saw Petra!," Good News, January 1958.
Neff, L. Leroy, "You May NOT ESCAPE the Tribulation!," Good News, January
1962.
Hoeh, Herman L., "This is PETRA!," Good News, April 1962, June 1962, July
1962.
Hill, David Jon, "PETRA!," Good News, October 1963.
Smith, Norman, "We FLED Petra!," Good News, November 1966.
After Armstrong's death in 1986, the Worldwide Church of God split up
into several hundred small sects.
Many of the splinter churches that remain after the demise of the
Worldwide Church of God still cling to the idea of a place of protection
from the future tribulation in Petra. David C. Pack of Wadsworth, Ohio
heads one of these groups, "The Restored Church of God." Apparently Pack
thinks he alone will know the right moment to flee, and it is reported
that only those who are faithful tithe payers in his group will be
informed. He wrote:
<quote>
Let's look at three critical time periods. The Tribulation and Day of the
Lord together last 1,260 days, or three and a half years before Christ's
Return. The others are "1,290 days" and "1,335 days."
The 1,290 appears in Daniel 12:11: "And from the time that the daily
sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate
set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." These are
obviously also literal days, beginning with the setting up of the
abomination of desolation--which is armies around Jerusalem. So then,
with the Church to be protected for only 1,260 days, there are 30 days
before it arrives at its designated place.
The 1,335-day period is introduced one verse later: "Blessed is he that
waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty
days" (vs. 12). What is this?
Starting 45 days before the 1,290-day mile-marker, the 1,335 date also
counts down to the Return of Christ. This moment signals the end of God's
Work of preaching the true gospel for this age--the completion of the
Matthew 24:14 commission--and the warning of the world's greatest
nations. The 1,335 is when the "call" goes out to God's people to
assemble for flight to safety. Then, when the abomination is set up--45
days later--events culminate in Jerusalem and the Church flees. The 45-
day period permits the Church time to gather from around the world in
what we will see to be Judea.
These periods begin with different events, but end with the same event--
Christ's Return! The following graph illustrates how these three
durations of time overlap.
1,335 Days--1,290 Days--1,260 Days
Since Daniel prefixes the event beginning the 1,335 days with "blessed is
he that waits," this is designated as the signal, with a possible
accompanying event--at this specific time--for which the Church has
patiently waited (Matt. 24:13; 10:22; Luke 21:19; Rev. 14:12).
The arrival of the critical 1,335 moment is something that will only be
known to those in God's one, undivided Church.
</quote>
The following is also included in this page:
<quote>
Fanatical Belief?
Some may find it embarrassing to believe in a literal place of safety.
They associate it with religious fanaticism, such as the Jim Jones cult,
who retreated to Guyana in the late 1970s, and the crisis at Waco, Texas
in the 1990s, and other religious groups with fanatical or bizarre
conduct.
The actions of such leaders, and the groups following them, distort and
taint the Bible's teachings, repelling many from the truth. Such fanatics
personify this prophetic scripture: "But there were false prophets also
among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you...And
many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of
truth shall be evil spoken of " (II Pet. 2:1-2).
</quote>
Promised Protection - Secret Rapture or Place of Safety? by David C. Pack
http://www.thercg.org/books/gpp.html#ch2
Pack's views depend on a flawed interpretation of the 1,260 days of
Revelation 11:3, the time that the two witnesses prophesy, and the same
period in Revelation 12:6, which is the period that the woman (who
represents the church) is nourished in the wilderness. This is not a
literal three and a half years, as the number of days does not fit a
three and a half year period, in any calendar. Three and a half lunar
years is about 1,240 days, or 1,270 days is a "leap year" of 13 months is
included. In three and a half solar years the number of days is about
1,278. This shows that the numbers are not meant literally.
Pack uses the 1,335 days and 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11 and 12, but fails
to note that they fit the pattern of "a time, times and a half" or the
three and a half symbolic years, mentioned in Daniel 7, which extend from
the days of the Roman Empire, the fourth beast. The numbers provided by
Daniel are related to those John used in Revelation, but John's numbers
are less, because they span a little less of the church age. John refers
to a portion of the same church age, very near its end, as "three days
and a half," in Revelation 11:7, again symbolically. The symbolic meaning
of these numbers was recognized by several expositors throughout the
church's history, who said they represent the whole age of the church; It
is the last half-week of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-29, when Christ
confirms his covenant with his church.
For example:
Venerable Bede (672-735)
In this number of days, which makes three years and a half, he
comprehends all the times of Christianity, because Christ, Whose body the
Church is, preached the same length of time in the flesh.
John Bale (1495-1563)
The numbered days here are none other but the afore written time of the
two witnesses, the time of Elias' preaching, the time of John's
preaching, the time of Christ's preaching, or the time of the Gospel
preaching from Christ's ascension to the end of the world. That is the
very time of the feeding of his church.
William Fulke (1538-1589)
But to me it seems more plain that under numbers the certain fixed, and
determinate time of the persecution of Antichrist is assigned, which he
cannot pass, although he fret fume and rage never so much. For the Lord
hath counted the same time by months days and hours. The reason of the
numbers seemeth to be of this sort, this time which sometime is called
two and forty months, sometime a thousand two hundred and sixty days,
sometime a time two times and half a time, maketh in all three years and
an half, that is the one half of a prophetical week, which time also is
called three days and an half. And this place alludes to the weeks of
years in the 9 Chapter of Daniel.
The wilderness also is seen a figurative, not a literal desert. It
alludes to the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness before
entering the promised land. The land, and the wilderness, are interpreted
in a spiritual manner in the NT. It is called a "better country." Not the
early territory, but heavenly. The earthly territory was a type of the
eternal inheritance of the saints.
Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God
is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a
city.
I think the "wilderness" in Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 represents the
church's unsettled condition, before arriving at their promised
inheritance, which includes an understanding of prophecy. See article at
URL below.
--
Doug
Mordecai
Now - the ideas we defend ... what are they?
They are ... the ideas of others TAUGHT to us.
They could be taught in school, by observing others, by the culture ... but
they are other people's ideas.
That is not an issue - but why do we need to defend "someone else's ideas?"
I repeat - this is not a criticism - EVERYONE does this. Know YOURSELF.
I cannot be all things - so someone has laid a foundation in me for
science, and for mathematics, for morality, for any number of things. But
can I understand einstein's theories at eight? Yet, even at eight - almost
every child has heard of Einstein and thinks that he was "the man" in
science - correct in his ideas.
But what if nobody had presented the ideas of Einstein until the child was
12, or 16, or 21? the ideas would be the same but the way the person
responded to the ideas (same information) would be different. A child
accepts that Einstein is right. He is taught it. He has no critical
facilities to doubt - they develop later.
All of us have built upon a foundation of others. We have accepted -
absorbed, deduced. If ONE THING is wrong - then your idea of how everything
works is suspect - you have to change the way you look at the universe.
A child has a black and white view of the world.
Upon this foundation - all is built.
But for a select few - wisdom comes.
And wisdom has to factor in the observer - yourself.
This includes who you are and your bias.
Your bias includes the teachings OF OTHERS.
The wise man has to change from a way of looking at the world which is
almost "clich�" - that is in terms of the labels of the foundation stones
... into a child like "everything is possible" way of looking at things.
Who am I? who are you? We are the product of biology - our forefathers.
We are the product of our training and schooling.
We are the product of our culture and language
We are the product of our nation and our sources of information.
And we are ourselves - despite and with all of the above.
Know yourself.
The first person who sets an idea in our heads introduces a bias.
You cannot get rid of the bias. You can only compensate for it.
Now Peter - I have done with the teaching about wisdom.
It is a path before you. You can take it.
In fact, you are the only poster on this NG I have ever offered to teach -
and only in the negative as you have the potential for wisdom.
If you wish to walk the path - I will happily take apart the doctrine of
Rapture.
Not because it matters - but it is called a failure analysis.
Failure analysis says "what did I do wrong?"
I do not really care what you believe. However - if you want wisdom, I will
train you in a few basic things, with rapture as the focus.
After that - you will be on your own. Wisdom is not following another you
see. I can give a few hints to the walk of wisdom but each called HAS to
walk it themselves.
You have to look, see, consider, weigh, think.
Other paths can have followers. Not this path.
r m
> On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:04:28 +1100, "I"
> <I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00072.com> wrote in article
I remember with interest when the year 2000 Millennium thingy came
nigh, I saw a TV news item of Israeli security were worried about
securing the Temple Mount against Christian Fundamentalists arriving
to bring in the Day (by force if memory serves me right).
> Promised Protection - Secret Rapture or Place of Safety? by David C. Packhttp://www.thercg.org/books/gpp.html#ch2
>
> Pack's views depend on a flawed interpretation of the 1,260 days of
> Revelation 11:3, the time that the two witnesses prophesy, and the same
> period in Revelation 12:6, which is the period that the woman (who
> represents the church) is nourished in the wilderness. This is not a
> literal three and a half years, as the number of days does not fit a
> three and a half year period, in any calendar. Three and a half lunar
> years is about 1,240 days, or 1,270 days is a "leap year" of 13 months is
> included. In three and a half solar years the number of days is about
> 1,278. This shows that the numbers are not meant literally.
>
> Pack uses the 1,335 days and 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11 and 12, but fails
> to note that they fit the pattern of "a time, times and a half" or the
> three and a half symbolic years, mentioned in Daniel 7, which extend from
> the days of the Roman Empire, the fourth beast. The numbers provided by
> Daniel are related to those John used in Revelation, but John's numbers
> are less, because they span a little less of the church...
>
> read more »
Peter B.
No.
> Most people who start the journey feel the depression - think "there is
> something wrong" and do not walk the road. After all - asking the first
> question generates the depression! Therefore the answer is "do not ask the
> question."
> And thus - wisdom cannot come.
>
My disappointment, without depression, stemmed by all the angles that were
presented by honest sincere people, most well studied. It appeared to
present discord and doubt. Doubt has no place with God, Doubt is a poison
pill. Hence my question looking for resolve. Which I received on this
matter.
> I do not know WHY this path has such a trap upon it, but it does.
>
> Have a long think ... because there is so much more to understand about
> this path.
> It needs to be EXPERIENCED, not talked about.
> Which is why I have been waiting for you. Giving you answers would not be a
> kindness. You have to choose, and you have to experience for yourself. It
> is your life, and the road to wisdom is only one possible road. I can say
> it is a good road to walk ... but there are many roads.
>
> We will get back to "rapture" much later - unless you decide you do not
> want wisdom.
> You are not ready to test yet.
There is no testing available. The fear of God is the begining of wisdom.
There is much to learn, to see, and to appreciate on this subject alone and
I doubt a normal lifetime will be sufficient for the fullness of it. The
Scriptures, the very same scriptures that Jesus used to teach His disciples
after His ressurection is perhaps the best place to start on that subject.
Just reading in Genesis and Exodus is sufficient to see that we are so very
limited in our understanding in this current day, and that the average
Christian has been very lax in regards to this. I am confident of the road
I am on.
Sorry for the delay in this response, was having newsreader problems with
the MS 2011 update, it is history for now.
Peter B.
I appreciate your kindess and offer but I seek after the wisdom of God, my
Father.
> If you wish to walk the path - I will happily take apart the doctrine of
> Rapture.
> Not because it matters - but it is called a failure analysis.
> Failure analysis says "what did I do wrong?"
>
To take apart the Catching away, Rapture, and the end time teachings of the
Major and Minor prophets of the scriptures would require the elimination of
God. I know that it would be impossible. I have full confidence in Him who
has saved me. Any other wisdom I cannot see as coming from Him the Creator.
I may make mistakes along the way that is the nature of learning, but as
long as He is by my side and I by His then I will quickly be picked up and
back on my way. Jesus said, and I paraphrase, I would that you would be one
in me as I am one in the father and the father in me. That the whole body
of Christ would be one in Him and He in us. That is His desire for us, Jew
and Gentile. That may be difficult for you to understand, it is not an easy
thing to grasp because of inadequate teaching and understanding. Any wisdom
that would contradict that is of no value to me.
You couch your words with hidden meanings. I have learned not to trust
anyone who does not speak plainly. But thank you.
> I do not really care what you believe. However - if you want wisdom, I will
> train you in a few basic things, with rapture as the focus.
> After that - you will be on your own. Wisdom is not following another you
> see. I can give a few hints to the walk of wisdom but each called HAS to
> walk it themselves.
> You have to look, see, consider, weigh, think.
> Other paths can have followers. Not this path.
I follow Christ.
Mordecai
Damn - so "testing all things - holding onto what is good" requies a pair
of scissors.
I can and have tested this ... and like most things - it failed.
> The fear of God is the begining of wisdom.
So?
> There is much to learn, to see, and to appreciate on this subject alone and
> I doubt a normal lifetime will be sufficient for the fullness of it. The
> Scriptures, the very same scriptures that Jesus used to teach His disciples
> after His ressurection is perhaps the best place to start on that subject.
>
> Just reading in Genesis and Exodus is sufficient to see that we are so very
> limited in our understanding in this current day, and that the average
> Christian has been very lax in regards to this. I am confident of the road
> I am on.
>
> Sorry for the delay in this response, was having newsreader problems with
> the MS 2011 update, it is history for now.
--
Peter B.
I was assuming you were speaking of testing wisdom. If so I know of no test
other than history of ones life. Otherwise...1 to test, examine, prove,
scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals. 2 to
recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy.
In any event the Word of God would be the "scissors".
Those in Berea searched the Scriptures daily, to see if what they were
hearing was true to God's Word (Acts 17:11).
> I can and have tested this ... and like most things - it failed.
>
>> The fear of God is the begining of wisdom.
>
> So?
>
It is extremely important for wisdom.
OTH, it sounds like you may have already reverted to attempting to disprove
the Rapture of the Church.