THE BIBLE SAYS THE EARTH IS FLAT - PROOF FROM "GOD'S WORD" - Robert J. Schadewald
I
© 1987, 1995 by Robert J. Schadewald
Reprinted from The Bulletin of the Tychonian Society #44 (July 1987)
... At the 1984 National Bible-Science Conference in Cleveland, geocentrist
James N. Hanson told me there are hundreds of scriptures that suggest the
earth is immovable. I suspect some must be a bit vague, but here are a few
obvious texts:
1 Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never
can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it
fast..."
...
The Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book.
This is hardly surprising. As neighbors, the ancient Hebrews had the
Egyptians to the southwest and the Babylonians to the northeast. Both
civilizations had flat-earth cosmologies. The Biblical cosmology closely
parallels the Sumero-Babylonian cosmology, and it may also draw upon
Egyptian cosmology.
The Babylonian universe was shaped like a modern domed stadium. The
Babylonians considered the earth essentially flat, with a continental mass
surrounded by ocean. The vault of the sky was a physical object resting upon
the ocean's waters (and perhaps also upon pillars). Sweet (salt-free) waters
below the Earth sometimes manifest themselves as springs. The Egyptian
universe was also enclosed, but it was rectangular instead of round. Indeed,
it was shaped much like an old-fashioned steamer trunk. (The Egyptians
pictured the goddess Nut stretched across the sky as the enclosing dome.)
What was the Hebrew view of the universe?
The Order of Creation
The Genesis creation story provides the first key to the Hebrew
cosmology. The order of creation makes no sense from a conventional
perspective but is perfectly logical from a flat-earth viewpoint. The earth
was created on the first day, and it was "without form and void (Genesis
1:2)." On the second day, a vault the "firmament" of the King James version
was created to divide the waters, some being above and some below the vault.
Only on the fourth day were the sun, moon, and stars created, and they were
placed "in" (not "above") the vault.
The Vault of Heaven
The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word "firmament" appears
in the King James version of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each case it
is translated from the Hebrew word raqiya, which meant the visible vault of
the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning "beaten out." In ancient
times, brass objects were either cast in the form required or beaten into
shape on an anvil. A good craftsman could beat a lump of cast brass into a
thin bowl. Thus, Elihu asks Job, "Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the
skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?"
Elihu's question shows that the Hebrews considered the vault of heaven
a solid, physical object. Such a large dome would be a tremendous feat of
engineering. The Hebrews (and supposedly Yahweh Himself) considered it
exactly that, and this point is hammered home by five scriptures:
Job 9:8, "...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]..."
Psalm 19:1, "The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the
vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork."
Psalm 102:25, "...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork."
Isaiah 45:12, "I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens
[shamayim] and caused all their host to shine..."
Isaiah 48:13, "...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky
[shamayim]..."
If these verses are about a mere illusion of a vault, they are surely
much ado about nothing. Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be
lofty. It literally means the sky. Other passages complete the picture of
the sky as a lofty, physical dome. God "sits throned on the vaulted roof of
earth [chuwg], whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the
skies [shamayim] like a curtain, he spreads them out like a tent to live
in...[Isaiah 40:22]." Chuwg literally means "circle" or "encompassed." By
extension, it can mean roundness, as in a rounded dome or vault. Job 22:14
says God "walks to and fro on the vault of heaven [chuwg]." In both verses,
the use of chuwg implies a physical object, on which one can sit and walk.
Likewise, the context in both cases requires elevation. In Isaiah, the
elevation causes the people below to look small as grasshoppers. In Job,
God's eyes must penetrate the clouds to view the doings of humans below.
Elevation is also implied by Job 22:12: "Surely God is at the zenith of the
heavens [shamayim] and looks down on all the stars, high as they are."
This picture of the cosmos is reinforced by Ezekiel's vision. The
Hebrew word raqiya appears five times in Ezekiel, four times in Ezekiel
1:22-26 and once in Ezekiel 10:1. In each case the context requires a
literal vault or dome. The vault appears above the "living creatures" and
glitters "like a sheet of ice." Above the vault is a throne of sapphire (or
lapis lazuli). Seated on the throne is "a form in human likeness," which is
radiant and "like the appearance of the glory of the Lord." In short,
Ezekiel saw a vision of God sitting throned on the vault of heaven, as
described in Isaiah 40:22.
The Shape of the Earth
Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface
is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king "saw a tree
of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the
sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." If the earth were flat, a
sufficiently tall tree would be visible to "the earth's farthest bounds,"
but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the
temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, "Once again, the devil took
him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world
[cosmos] in their glory." Obviously, this would be possible only if the
earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming
with the clouds! Every eye shall see him..."
...
Those who claim Biblical support for a spherical earth typically
ignore this forest of consistency and focus on one or two aberrant trees.
Some take refuge in audacity. Henry Morris, president of the Institute for
Creation Research, cites one of the more explicitly flat-earth verses in the
Old Testament Isaiah 40:22, the "grasshopper" verse quoted earlier as
evidence for the sphericity of the earth. Quoting the King James version "he
sitteth upon the circle of the earth" Morris ignores the context and the
grasshoppers and claims "circle" should read "sphericity" or "roundness"
[1956, 8]. This divide and conquer strategy is poor scholarship and worse
logic.
Heroic efforts have been made by apologists to explain away the
firmament, which encloses the celestial bodies, has waters above it, and is
a masterpiece proving the Creator's craftsmanship. The late Harold W.
Armstrong argued that it is empty Newtonian space, and that the "waters
above" still surround the edges of the universe, though perhaps not in
liquid form [1979, 26]. This simply ignores difficulties and invents
evidence. Gerardus Bouw tried to identify the firmament as a mathematical
plenum [1987]. In my view, it is a grave error to reinterpret ancient
documents to force their authors to speak with modern voices. Gary Zukov
[1979] and Fritjof Capra [1976], for instance, read modern physics into the
teachings of eastern mysticism. I consider all such attempts equally
suspect.
Perhaps the scripture most frequently offered as evidence of the
earth's sphericity is the King James version of Job 26:7, "He stretcheth out
the north [tsaphon] over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing
[beliymah]." (The New English Bible translates it, "God spreads the canopy
of the sky over chaos and suspends earth in the void.") It is not clear what
this means. The Hebrew tsaphon literally meant hidden or dark, and it was
used in reference to the northern regions. Beliymah literally means
"nothing." That would contradict all of the scriptures which say the earth
rests on foundations, but that interpretation is not necessary. We will
return to Job 26:7 later.
Speaking of foundations, Gerardus Bouw, in an undated paper entitled
"The Form of the Earth," cites a barrage of scriptures about the foundations
of the earth or world as evidence for sphericity. All (or nearly all) of
these verses have traditionally been used by flat-earthers to prove the
earth flat. If one views the earth as an architectural structure with floor,
curtain walls, and a roof, it is natural to assume it has foundations (and,
I might add, a cornerstone). Why a sphere would have foundations escapes me.
Bouw's argument that these scriptures refer to the earth's core seems
strained at best. Also strained is Bouw's interpretation of "the ends of the
earth" as the points most distant from Jerusalem, and his identification of
the Chukchi Peninsula of the Soviet Union, Alaska, Cape Horn, and the
southeastern tip of Australia as the "four corners" of the earth.
Bouw's most interesting argument for sphericity is based on the gospel
of Luke. He compares the King James version of Luke 17:31 and 17:34. The
former says "In that day, he which shall be upon the house top..." and the
latter "in that night there shall be two men in one bed..." (italics added).
Bouw then cites 1 Corinthians 15:52 to argue that the events are
simultaneous, claiming simultaneity is possible only on a spherical earth.
First of all, the latter claim is wrong. The modern (though not the ancient)
flat-earth model has day and night occurring simultaneously at different
points on earth. Second, the Greek hemera was used much like the English
"day." It could mean the daylight hours, a 24-hour day, or (figuratively) an
epoch of unspecified length. Third, Luke appears to have been writing
figuratively, and citing Paul to prove otherwise begs the question.
One more spherical argument deserves notice. The 1985 National
Creation Conference in Cleveland ended with a formal debate on the relative
merits of heliocentricity and geocentricity. Richard Niessen of Christian
Heritage College, defending the Copernican view, remarked that the Bible
teaches a spherical earth because it treats north and south as absolutes,
but east and west as relative. As evidence of the latter, he cited Psalm
103:12 which says, "As far as the east is from the west, so far has he put
our offences from us." Again, the modern flat-earth model holds that north
and south are absolutes, but east and west are relative. In the ancient
flat-earth model, however, east and west were about as far apart as you
could get, which seems to be the image Psalm 103:12 was intended to invoke.
In my view, all arguments to prove the Bible teaches a spherical earth
are weak if not wrong- headed. On the other hand, the flat-earth cosmology
previously described is historically consistent and requires none of the
special pleading apparently necessary to harmonize the Bible with
sphericity.
...
Conclusion
From their geographical and historical context, one would expect the
ancient Hebrews to have a flat-earth cosmology. Indeed, from the very
beginning, ultra-orthodox Christians have been flat-earthers, arguing that
to believe otherwise is to deny the literal truth of the Bible. The
flat-earth implications of the Bible were rediscovered and popularized by
English-speaking Christians in the mid-19th century. Liberal scriptural
scholars later derived the same view. Thus, students with remarkably
disparate points of view independently concluded that the ancient Hebrews
had a flat-earth cosmology, often deriving this view from scripture alone.
Their conclusions were dramatically confirmed by the rediscovery of 1 Enoch.
Peter B.
Poor guy, not one verse using the words flat earth. It doesn't exist. Talk
about fabrications! And Mark bought into it. LOL
I
> not one verse using the words flat earth.
Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2 dimensional FLAT
object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
Obviously you have not read the bible that you follow as a substitute for
the One God.
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00126.com> wrote in article
<4cce7a7f$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
Robert J. Schadewald and others who reject the gospel because of the
flawed cosmology in the OT are victims of an ancient fraud, that was
initiated in the second century BC.
According to the prophecy in Daniel 8, and my interpretation of it, this
fraud was initiated by the Syrian king Antiochus IV, who is represented
by the little horn of a goat, which grew up to become very tall. In
Daniel's vision, the goat represents the Greek empire, and its first horn
that was broken is Alexander the Great. There followed the four diadochi
or successors, the hellenistic kingdoms, one of which was the Seleucid
Empire at Antioch. Antiochus IV was one of the prominent kings in that
dynasty. The horn grew up, past the tree tops, past the clouds, higher
than the moon, to the stars, and then the horn assaulted the "prince of
the host," which of course is God. And the "place of his sanctuary" is
heaven.
The horn that grew tall, which represents Antiochus IV, cast the stars,
and the host of heaven, and even heaven itself, down to the earth, and
trampled them. Heaven was cast to the earth, in the vision. None of this
was understood, of course, by by the Bible scholars, or by Mr. Schadewald.
Any interpretation of the prophecy has to explain how these four things
got cast to the earth: the stars, the host of heaven, the place of God's
sanctuary, and the truth.
All of this is explained by the changes that Antiochus IV initiated in
the first chapter of the book of Genesis, where the meaning of the word
'raqia' was changed. The 'raqia' originally referred to the earth's rocky
crust, formed in the midst of the waters on day 2. In the fraud of
Antiochus IV, its meaning was changed, by insertion of the words "and God
called the firmament Heaven" or the Hebrew and Greek equivalents in
ancient manuscripts. This redefined 'raqia' as Heaven, whereas before, it
was the earth that was formed on day 2.
To implement his changes to the cosmology of the Bible, Antiochus had the
support of apostate Jews who admired the Hellenistic Greek cosmology, in
which a rigid heaven revolving around the earth was the main feature.
This rigid sky is identified with Zeus, in the stories of Homer, and in
the poetry and philosophy of the Greeks.
The cosmology of Genesis 1 was changed, with the addition of several
references to the "firmament of heaven." Of course, this phrase is
redundant. If the "firmament" or "raqia" was heaven since the earliest
times, why would it be necessary to say "firmament of heaven"? And the
word "raqia" occurs far too many times in the first chapter of Genesis,
for it to be genuine or original. In fact, that chapter is overloaded
with it, which is evidence of a fraud, that has been missed by even the
most learned of the Bible scholars and has fooled millions, and poor
Robert J. Schadewald was one of the victims!
In Genesis 1, the naming of Day, Night, Heaven, Earth, and Sea are
spurious. These are the principal deities in the Greek religion.
The fraud of Antiochus IV involved revising not only Genesis 1, but the
revision of the cosmology of the entire OT; it is seen, for example, in
Job 37:18.
>
> The Vault of Heaven
>
> The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word "firmament" appears
> in the King James version of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each
> case it is translated from the Hebrew word raqiya, which meant the
> visible vault of the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning
> "beaten out." In ancient times, brass objects were either cast in the
> form required or beaten into shape on an anvil. A good craftsman could
> beat a lump of cast brass into a thin bowl. Thus, Elihu asks Job, "Can
> you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror
> of cast metal (Job 37:18)?"
>
> Elihu's question shows that the Hebrews considered the vault of heaven a
> solid, physical object. Such a large dome would be a tremendous feat of
> engineering. The Hebrews (and supposedly Yahweh Himself) considered it
> exactly that, and this point is hammered home by five scriptures:
The Greek philosophers thought the rigid, rotating heaven was the chief
deity, following the poets. But in the third century BC, Aristarchus of
Samos developed a heliocentric theory, in which the earth rotated, and
the planets orbited the sun; his theory did not require a rigid heaven,
and so was considered sacrilege by his contemporaries, especially the
priests of Zeus. In the second century BC, Seleucus of Babylon supported
the heliocentric theory, and taught it "not just as a hypothesis, but as
a fact" according to Plutarch. He was silenced; his writings destroyed,
and his doctrine was stamped out, during the time of Antiochus IV. The
decrees of Antiochus were intended to eliminate things that threatened
the religion of the Greeks, which was based on geocentrism, and in which
the central idea was the rigid heaven revolving around the earth once a
day, that was identified with Zeus.
Antiochus identified with Zeus, and built the temples of Zeus, such as
the great temple of Zeus at Athens, completed three centuries later by
Hadrian. He built a temple of Jupiter Capitolinus, the Roman Zeus, in
Antioch. He had a statue of Zeus constructed for the temple of Apollo at
Daphne. He is depicted on coins with Zeus on the obverse side. He
promoted the worship of Zeus throughout the ancient world.
The Ezekiel's vision was another part of the Bible that became a target
of the revisionists. Jews who were involved in the fraud of Antiochus IV,
who revised the cosmology of the Bible to conform to the Greek cosmology,
tried to make Ezekiel's description of the throne of God about
cosmology, introducing "wheels" that probably allude to the planetary
spheres of Eudoxus. In the geocentric theory, Zeus was enthroned above
the rigid sky and revolved around the earth once a day. Of course this
belief was contrary to the prophets, such as Isaiah.
Isaiah said, "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth
is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is
the place of my rest?" [Isaiah 66:1]
Earth is God's footstool, Isaiah said, and heaven is his throne. What
king would rotate his throne around his footstool every day? It would be
absurd!
Jesus quoted this scripture, which makes nonsense of the geocentric Greek
cosmology.
>
> The Shape of the Earth
>
> Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface is
> required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king "saw a tree
> of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to
> the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds." If the earth were
> flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to "the earth's farthest
> bounds," but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in
> describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, "Once
> again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all
> the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory." Obviously, this
> would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of
> Revelation 1:7: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall
> see him..."
Clouds in the Bible are symbolic; Hebrews 11 describes many of the heroes
of faith in the OT, and in the next chapter, they are all referred to as
a "cloud of witnesses."
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of
witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so
easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before
us.
Similarly, false teachers are referred to in scripture as "clouds without
water, carried about of winds;" in Jude 1:12
Jude 1:10-13
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what
they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt
themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily
after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of
Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you,
feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried
about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead,
plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars,
to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Could the above verses apply to people like Robert J. Schadewald, and
those like him, who "speak evil of those things which they know not"?
Gerardus Bouw is another victim of the fraud of Antiochus IV!
The author of 1 Enoch, and the authors of similar works, were obviously
men who admired the geocentric cosmology of the Greeks, and its rigid
heaven, and planetary spheres, all of which are ideas that were
originally developed by the Greek poets and philosophers, not by the
Hebrews. Evidently they were hellenized Jews. Their object was to
identify Yahweh with Zeus.
Apostate Jews imported Greek cosmology into their own scriptures in the
second century BC. This elaborate fraud, that continued for centuries,
fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel 8:9-11. The 'raqia,' a word which
originally referred to the earth's crust, made in the primeval waters,
was identified with the rigid heaven. Re-definition of the 'raqia' as
Heaven in the second century BC meant the stars and the sun and moon were
put inside the 'raqia,' or the earth's crust! This was the fulfilment of
the prophecy about the little horn growing up to the stars, and casting
them to the earth, in Daniel 8:9-11.
--
Doug
Rod
> "Peter B."<p...@b.org> wrote:
>
>
>> not one verse using the words flat earth.
>
> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2 dimensional FLAT
> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>
Obviously, the author of the Isaiah assumed (incorrectly)that you
are able to understand his line of thought here. Quite obviously,
Isaiah isn't prophetic because the author had no clue that an lying
piece of dogshit named Mark Tindall would be interpreting what he had
written...
Jude Alexander
"Rod" <nhra_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iamofp$hfo$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
It IS a circle, Rod, in fact the word used (and I'm going on memory and
won't be able to give you the exact word) means the same as a waxed stamp on
papyrus. It is flat and round and had a double usage to mean seal and flat
disc. I'll check into this. When I bought my new computer, I somehow lost
the very long "paper" I had on the descriptions of nature according to the
bible. It's still on my old computer but I've been to lazy to hook it up
and boot it. I have everything I need to hook it up. It's just a matter of
doing it.
Seeker
[...]
> Poor guy, not one verse using the words flat earth. It doesn't exist. Talk
> about fabrications! And Mark bought into it. LOL
But there are verses that imply you can see all the kingdoms of the
Earth from a tall mountain.
Rod
> "Rod"<nhra_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:iamofp$hfo$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On 11/1/2010 4:15 AM, I wrote:
>>> "Peter B."<p...@b.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> not one verse using the words flat earth.
>>>
>>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2 dimensional
>>> FLAT
>>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>>>
>>
>> Obviously, the author of the Isaiah assumed (incorrectly)that you
>> are able to understand his line of thought here. Quite obviously,
>> Isaiah isn't prophetic because the author had no clue that an lying
>> piece of dogshit named Mark Tindall would be interpreting what he had
>> written...
>
> It IS a circle, Rod, in fact the word used (and I'm going on memory and
> won't be able to give you the exact word) means the same as a waxed stamp on
> papyrus. It is flat and round and had a double usage to mean seal and flat
> disc.
In order for the author to have intended that he would have to
be blind, stupid or both, Jude. he would have to ignore the 3
dimensions of his own body AND those of nature. I cannot conceive
of anyone being that messed up
I'll check into this. When I bought my new computer, I somehow lost
> the very long "paper" I had on the descriptions of nature according to the
> bible. It's still on my old computer but I've been to lazy to hook it up
> and boot it. I have everything I need to hook it up. It's just a matter of
> doing it.
>
>
I'd be interested in seeing that.
Doug
article <iamrj7$tot$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
There does not seem to have been any specific word for sphere in the
ancient Hebrew, and the word for circle, "chug", often designated a
sphere.
There are some interesting comments on this at:
http://www.skepticalmonkey.com/scientific-accuracy-and-circular-reasoning
<quote>
From what I can tell, there was not a word for 'sphere' in the Hebrew
language. It is a word-concept that is missing in ancient Hebrew.
Isa. 22:18 is literally translated "And thy coverer covering, wrapping
round, Wrappeth thee round, O babbler, On a land broad of sides-there
thou diest, And there the chariots of thine honour Are the shame of the
house of thy lord." 'Duwr' no more indicates sphericity than 'chuwg'
does. Notice no mention of the word "ball" in the translation, but rather
the act of wrapping in a circular motion.
'Duwr' was used again in Isa. 29:2 "And I will camp against thee round
about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise
forts against thee." In this instance it is translated "round about" or
"around", not "a sphere".
As for Job 38:12-14, your citations in the article above are not quite
accurate. I've quoted it below correctly.
Job 38:12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the
dayspring to know his place;
Job 38:13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the
wicked might be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
It's obvious from a plain reading that the main point of this passage is
the interaction of light upon the earth and in that context there ARE
"ends of the earth" as far as light shining on a globe are concerned. The
description "turned as clay to the seal" is not saying that the earth is
flat, rather as the clay receives a different form by the impress of the
seal the earth appears different by light shining upon it; in the
darkness of the night nothing of its form and beauty can to be seen,
"they stand as a garment".
In reference to Matt 4:8, "Again, the devil taketh him up into an
exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world,
and the glory of them", this verse by no means indicates either a flat
earth or a spherical one. It is simply says that the devil took Jesus to
a mountaintop and showed him all the earthly kingdoms. This was basically
an "honor challenge" by placing Jesus in a pre-eminent position. The
mechanism of the "showing" is not discussed, is simply says he showed
him. We are left to wonder how he showed "all the kingdoms...and the
glory of them". Consider that in the previous verses the devil took Jesus
from the wilderness to the holy city and "setteth him on a pinnacle of
the temple" without explanation as to how they got to the city or how
they got up to the top of the temple. It just simply says they did it.
Consider who the players in this episode are, Jesus the Christ (God
Himself in the form of a man) and the devil (Satan, not Lucifer as some
might say). We should be careful not to read into scripture what is not
there. Jesus and Satan were not having a geological conference on the
mountaintop, Satan was tempting Jesus and it is not unreasonable to
conclude that the "showing" was accomplished by spiritual or supernatural
means.
</quote>
Mountains are used figuratively in scripture; in Dan. 2:35, "...the stone
that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole
earth." Neither the stone, nor the mountain, are literal. The explanation
is given by Daniel; the mountain is the kingdom of God, that will
eventually fill the earth, or extend worldwide. "Forasmuch as thou sawest
that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it
brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;
the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass
hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."
Now, there are other places in scripture, where a "mountain" may be a
promise, a revelation, or a covenant, such as Sinai, in Galatians
4:24-25. Mountains are not necessarily kingdoms. But in both cases,
Daniel 2 and Galatians 4, the mountains represent revelations of God. And
in Ezekiel's vision about the measuring of the temple, he was brought to
"a very high mountain" from which he described his vision. Literally, he
was still in captivity, somewhere in what is now Iraq.
Ezekiel 40:1-2
In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the
year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that
the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon
me, and brought me thither.
In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me
upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the
south.
There is no literal high mountain near Jerusalem. It has to do with the
high and lofty character of the revelation. Similarly, when John
described the New Jerusalem, Rev. 21, he was carried away to a high
mountain, although literally he was on Patmos.
Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and
shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven
from God,
This too is a high and lofty prophecy, full of symbolic meaning. In
Daniel 8, if a goat's horn can grow up to the stars in prophecy, surely
it is not that strange if a mountain is used in a symbolic way, in Matt.
4:8. Perhaps in this case, its use has to do with a "high and lofty
concept" or something like that.
--
Doug
Jude Alexander
You're projecting, whether you know it or not, (and I think it unknowingly)
a 21st perceptive onto the ancients. When you go up on a high mountain and
look around it appears as if the world is round and that the sky is a dome.
It appears as if the sun rises and sets. It appears as if stars are
falling. Why use the phrase "falling?" Anyway, there is no such thing as a
falling star. Stars explode or implode. It cosmic depris this is falling
into out atmospher. The ancients believed in an "above" and "below." You
look above from flat earth and below the surface. The bible describes the
earth as "unmoving" and "fixed." It also says it doesn't hang on anything
but that was in "rebuttal" of many pagan religions around the ancient Jews
who did claim that the earth was held up by Atlas (or somebody like that - I
think it was Atlas).
> I'll check into this. When I bought my new computer, I somehow lost
>> the very long "paper" I had on the descriptions of nature according to
>> the
>> bible. It's still on my old computer but I've been to lazy to hook it up
>> and boot it. I have everything I need to hook it up. It's just a matter
>> of
>> doing it.
>>
>>
> I'd be interested in seeing that.
Well, there are plenty of sites on Internet. I just read a lot of them,
both pro and con, willing to believe each side on any given detail, checked
into the Hebrew, asked a few questions and then put them all together,
re-wrote it and re-wrote it, re-organized it many times into categories, put
a lot of work into it. It was an unfinished work but about 75% completed.
I start something and then something else comes up and it's all new and
exciting and then I have to get back to the other things and then something
up pops up! lol I have dozens of things about the bible and Quran at
different stages of completion. Later...
Jude Alexander
"Seeker" <hso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:121d63b0-f27f-44d3...@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
That would be, I think, 2 of the 4 gospels when Jesus was tempted by Satan.
Satan brought Him up to an exceedingly high mountain to show him the
kingdoms of the world. Even at the highest mountain and even if the world
was flat, you couldn't see all the kingdoms of the world. Some try to put a
metaphoric meaning to being brought up to "an exceedingly high mountain" but
that falls flat (no pun intended ;) ) because why brings Jesus up to a high
mountain. If one was "magically" being shown all the kingdoms of the world,
you don't have to be brought up to a high mountain. It is clear that the
declaration that Jesus was brought up to a very high mountain means that it
was thought one could see the whole earth from that vantage point.
Doug
<Ca...@tete-a-tete.usa> wrote in article
<iamuhb$36q$2...@news.eternal-september.org>:
> "Seeker" <hso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:121d63b0-f27f-44d3-
a939-365...@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
According to Luke's account, Jesus was shown "all the kingdoms of the
world in a moment of time."
Luke 4:5
And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all
the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
It was not only the kingdoms that existed then; the kingdoms of the
future ages could be referred to here. Otherwise, why say "in a moment of
time"? So this mountain was not a literal mountain. In scripture,
mountains are often used in a figurative way.
The mountains "skipped like lambs," David said, in Psalm 114, when Israel
went out of Egypt. How did the mountains skip? These cannot be literal
mountains. They would have to become airborne, if they were to literally
skip like lambs!
Mountains that fly through the air would be very strange. But there may
be a solution, if Israel is represented by a mountain. The 12 tribes of
Israel "skipped" out of Egypt, crossed the sea, came to Sinai, sojourned
40 years in the wilderness, and finally settled in the promised land.
Israel is called a mountain in Ezekiel 17:23, which refers to "the
mountain of the height of Israel."
Mountains are symbols of some of the great truths of the Bible; for
example, the kingdom of God is represented by a mountain in Daniel 2:35,
and in Isaiah 2:2. Paul refers to Mount Sinai symbolically; it represents
the Old Covenant and the mosaic legislation, in Galatians 4:24.
In Isaiah 2:2, the relative height of the various mountains is the key
idea in the prophecy. The mountain representing the Lord's house rises to
an altitude greater than all others. What are the other inferior
mountains? In this case, those other mountains and hills are not
identified; but clearly they are not literal mountains. They may be
nations, governments, or religions. Whatever they are, the Lord's house
will be higher. The dynasties of kings, and rulers of the nations, and
all the great men of the earth, will become subject to the house of God,
which is the church. The Israelites after the flesh were among those
lesser mountains.
Isaiah said "Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill
shall be made low." [Isa. 40:4] This was the message of John the Baptist.
In Luke's account, the prophecy is seen as a prediction that the valleys
are to be filled up. [Luke 3:5] The filling of valleys would diminish the
relative height of the neighbouring mountains.
This idea of valleys being filled may be connected with processes
involved in the formation of the mountains in Israel. One or these
mechanisms is erosion. Many mountains consist of eroded sedimentary
rocks; they are the remnants of sediments that were once much more
extensive. Erosion left resistant rocks as mountains, flanked by valleys.
Many mountains are eroded remnants of formerly continuous layers of rock
strata. Those with hard cap rocks may be mesas, which are isolated
mountains consisting of layers of sediments, often with steep sides, and
a flat top. They are remnants of former continuous layers of sediments,
and if those missing sediments were to be somehow restored, the mountain
would turn into a plain.
This idea may underlie John's prophecy of mountains becoming low, and
valleys being filled. It reverses the process of erosion that formed the
mountains. If the mountains are metaphors of prophecies, which are
cryptic sayings of divine origin that remain mysterious to us because
they are missing their context, the restoring of the context is the
explanation or interpretation of those prophecies.
There are numerous examples of prophecies that are explained, when the
missing context is provided. This is most clearly shown in the prophecies
about the first coming of Christ. Many of these were explained to the
disciples on the road to Emmaus, after Christ rose from the grave. His
ministry, and his crucifixion and resurrection, was the context that
filled in the gaps, or valleys, so the "mountains," or mysteries of Old
Testament prophecy, were made plain, when it was all explained to them.
It was as though the missing strata, that had been eroded away to form
mountains, was restored. Thus, mountains being "made low," and valleys
filled, suggests the prophecies of the OT about Christ were fulfilled,
and their meaning explained.
Some mountains consist of older rocks that have been uplifted by tectonic
forces to levels higher than younger sediments. Prophecies may be
similar; earlier revelations may be more profound, and fundamental, and
significant, for understanding the Gospel.
Mountains are durable, and long lasting. Gen. 49:26 refers to "the
everlasting hills." They don't change significantly over time; David
said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." [Psa. 36:6] Thus
the mountains resemble the promises of God, which endure forever.
Mountains are landmarks, that guide a traveller on his way. Isaiah said,
"And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be
exalted." [Isaiah 49:11] The mountains represent the great promises of
God, and they help us find the way, if we keep our objective, and our
promised inheritance in mind.
--
Doug
Doug
<Ca...@tete-a-tete.usa> wrote in article
<iamu8q$1rb$2...@news.eternal-september.org>:
Actually, Newton's law of universal gravitation says all stars are
"falling." Newton said, "A centripetal force is that by which bodies are
drawn or impelled, or in any way tend, towards a point as to a centre."
The heavenly bodies are attracted towards each other, by gravity. That is
what "falling" is. "For a satellite in orbit around a planet, the
centripetal pseudo-force is an artifact of classical Newtonian model of
gravitational attraction between the satellite and the planet. The
gravitational force acts on each object toward the other, which is toward
the centre of mass of the two objects; for circular orbits, this centre
of gravity is the centre of the circular orbits."
The moon "falls" to the earth, just as an apple falls to the ground. And
in the same fashion, all stars are falling towards the centres of their
galaxies, according to Newton's theory.
> Stars explode or implode. It
> cosmic depris this is falling into out atmospher. The ancients believed
> in an "above" and "below." You look above from flat earth and below the
> surface. The bible describes the earth as "unmoving" and "fixed."
Can you prove such statements were not corruptions introduced in the
hellenistic period?
In fact, Isaiah's prophecy, that says the stars and host of heaven fall
like figs, is very similar to Newton's statement that they fall like
apples. Falling figs are basically similar to falling apples. Isaiah's
prophecy long preceded Newton.
Isaiah 34:4
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be
rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the
leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
The heavens rolling together as a scroll, I think, is a prophecy about
the scientific revolution; before the scientific revolution, men thought
the heavens revolved around the earth. In the enlightenment, they
realized that no, the earth rotates, not the sky; like the spindles of a
scroll when they are rolled together the revolutions of the heavens
ceased, and they have not revolved since. This was what the scientific
revolution accomplished; it fulfilled Isaiah's prophecy.
> It
> also says it doesn't hang on anything but that was in "rebuttal" of many
> pagan religions around the ancient Jews who did claim that the earth was
> held up by Atlas (or somebody like that - I think it was Atlas).
>
>> I'll check into this. When I bought my new computer, I somehow lost
>>> the very long "paper" I had on the descriptions of nature according to
>>> the
>>> bible. It's still on my old computer but I've been to lazy to hook it
>>> up and boot it. I have everything I need to hook it up. It's just a
>>> matter of
>>> doing it.
>>>
>>>
>> I'd be interested in seeing that.
>
> Well, there are plenty of sites on Internet. I just read a lot of them,
> both pro and con, willing to believe each side on any given detail,
> checked into the Hebrew, asked a few questions and then put them all
> together, re-wrote it and re-wrote it, re-organized it many times into
> categories, put a lot of work into it. It was an unfinished work but
> about 75% completed. I start something and then something else comes up
> and it's all new and exciting and then I have to get back to the other
> things and then something up pops up! lol I have dozens of things
> about the bible and Quran at different stages of completion. Later...
--
Doug
Jude Alexander
Jude Alexander
Rod
You know Jude, things such as what you are describing are one reason
that many people refuse to give the Bible any credibility at all. How
can people be certain that the minds of primitive men haven't
misinterpreted much of what they saw and experienced ? In truth, very
few are able to. I personally do not believe everything I've seen in the
scriptures, and in many cases I am not willing to as it defies
reason.
I
>>> not one verse using the words flat earth.
>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2 dimensional
>> FLAT
>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>
> Obviously, the author of the Isaiah assumed (incorrectly)that you
> are able to understand his line of thought here.
I unerstand his thought completely. The cosmology of the time was a FLAT
earth. See photos at:
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2008/01/biblical-cosmology.html
http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2010/02/biblical-cosmology.html
> piece of dogshit
An example of fundamentalist "love of thy neighbour" from Rodney Eastman.
--
Fundamentalists seem aimed at making themselves feel better by placing all
negative and destructive emotions in people with different beliefs, and
enjoying the golden glow of self-justification that results. ... You know
that simile: 'As rare as a Fundamentalist who loves his enemy.' ... the
Inquisition did largely miss the point of 'Love Thy Neighbour', didn't they?
Wasn't burning heretics 'worse' than being tolerant towards them? ...
from "LIFE ...and how to survive it" - Robin Skinner & John Cleese (Methuen;
London:1993) p. 287
I
>>>>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2
>>>>> dimensional FLAT
>>>>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>
> There does not seem to have been any specific word for sphere in the
> ancient Hebrew, and the word for circle, "chug", often designated a
> sphere.
...
> From what I can tell, there was not a word for 'sphere' in the Hebrew
> language. It is a word-concept that is missing in ancient Hebrew.
Fundamentalist creationist urban myth.
The Hebrew word for SPHERE is "BALL" - duwr.
Isaiah 22:18 it describes Yahweh "will turn and toss you like a ball."
Creationuists will try anything to weasel out of the fact that a circle is a
two dimensional obejct and Jews had a word for a sphere / ball which they
DIDN'T use in Isaiah 40:22.
--
Creationism is pseudo-science and not recognised by any Science Academy in
the world. It was totally discredited in the Dover Trial. Belief in
creationism is akin to belief in astrology and palmistry. It is no
different.
SEE:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs.html (Includes link to Dover Trial
transcript)
I
> Actually, Newton's law of universal gravitation says all stars are
> "falling." Newton said, "A centripetal force is that by which bodies are
> drawn or impelled, or in any way tend, towards a point as to a centre."
Thus the bible is wrong as earth is NOT the centre of all gravitational
attraction in the universe and stars are not all falling towards earth. The
red shift proves that.
> In fact, Isaiah's prophecy, that says the stars and host of heaven fall
> like figs
Other parts of the bible add "TO EARTH". HOW can stars all fall to
earth??????? Have you any idea how large stars are?????????
I
>> Poor guy, not one verse using the words flat earth. It doesn't exist.
>> Talk
>> about fabrications! And Mark bought into it. LOL
>
> But there are verses that imply you can see all the kingdoms of the
> Earth from a tall mountain.
Peter B has dyslexia and couldn't understand that part of the text. That's
why I dumbed it down with a single bible verse for him.
There is NO mountain on Earth where one can see ALL the world as the Earth
is a sphere. That means that the bible is WRONG when it says that such
things happened.
I
> According to Luke's account, Jesus was shown "all the kingdoms of the
> world in a moment of time."
>
> Luke 4:5
> And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all
> the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
>
> It was not only the kingdoms that existed then; the kingdoms of the
> future ages could be referred to here. Otherwise, why say "in a moment of
> time"? So this mountain was not a literal mountain. In scripture,
> mountains are often used in a figurative way.
How quiock fundamentalists are to switch from the literal to the allegorical
WHEN IT SUITS THEM!
#######################################
from James Barr "Fundamentalism" (SCM Press:1977)
In order to expound the Bible as thus inerrant, the fundamentalist
interpreter varies back and forward between the literal and non-literal
understandings, indeed he has to do so in order to obtain a Bible that is
error-free. p.40
What fundamentalists do pursue is a completely unprincipled - in the strict
sense unprincipled, because guided by no principle of interpretation -
approach, in which the only guiding criterion is that the Bible should, by
the sorts of truth that fundamentalists respect and follow, be true and not
in any sort of error. p.49
#######################################
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00128.com> wrote in article
<4ccf4ffb$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
> "Rod" <nhra_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>> not one verse using the words flat earth.
>>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2 dimensional
>>> FLAT
>>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>>
>> Obviously, the author of the Isaiah assumed (incorrectly)that you
>> are able to understand his line of thought here.
>
> I unerstand his thought completely. The cosmology of the time was a FLAT
> earth. See photos at:
> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2008/01/biblical-
cosmology.html
> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2010/02/biblical-
cosmology.html
>
The idea that there were waters above the heavens as shown in the
pictures at the links above followed from the fraud that resulted in the
changed cosmology of scripture, making it conform to the flawed
geocentric Greek cosmology. It was aaccomplished by identifying the
'raqia' with heaven in Genesis 1, by the addition of the words "and God
called the firmament heaven" (or the Hebrew and Greek equivalents) in
ancient scrolls. This occurred in the second century BC during the reign
of Antiochus IV, as part of his hellenization policy.
The word 'raqia' originally meant the crust of the earth, which in the
creation account was created in the midst of the primeval waters on day
2. Then, on day 3, the land rose above the surface of the waters which
would have formed land and sea.
Saying the 'raqia' was heaven, which these changes introduced, implied
there were waters above the heavens, which would have meant water at
three levels; (1) below the earth, (2) the oceans and seas, and (3) above
the heavens. But the diagrams at the links above show water at only two
levels, oceans and seas, and above the heavens.
There are numerous references to subterranean waters in the Bible; the
fountains of the deep breaking at the time of the flood implies
subterranean sources and fountains of pressurized waters emerging from
the interior. In Exodus 20 in the 10 commandments, there is a reference
to "the water under the earth" in verse 4.
Exodus 20
1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of
Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any
thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that
is in the water under the earth.
Another example of a reference to subterranean water is Psalm 24:
Psalm 24:1-2
The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they
that dwell therein.
For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
This illustrates that the cosmology that David knew about was one of two
water layers, one being the oceans and seas, and the other being the
subterranean waters. In the creation story, the earth's crust was a rocky
layer formed in the midst of the primeval waters on the second day. This
was the 'raqia.' But in the 2nd century BC, Jews who admired the Greek
cosmology wanted to get the Greek idea of a rigid sky into the Bible, and
this plan was implemented secretly by Antiochus IV, with their support.
Those who jeer and smirk at the flawed cosmology of the Bible are simply
ignorant of the fraud of Antiochus IV and the apostate Jews, and they are
in fact the victims of the fraud! That includes the late Robert J.
Schadewald and his followers.
>
>
>> piece of dogshit
>
> An example of fundamentalist "love of thy neighbour" from Rodney
> Eastman.
--
Doug
I
>>>>> not one verse using the words flat earth.
>>>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2 dimensional
>>>> FLAT
>>>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>>> Obviously, the author of the Isaiah assumed (incorrectly)that you
>>> are able to understand his line of thought here.
>> I unerstand his thought completely. The cosmology of the time was a FLAT
>> earth. See photos at:
>> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2008/01/biblical-
> cosmology.html
>> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2010/02/biblical-
> cosmology.html
>
> The idea that there were waters above the heavens as shown in the
> pictures at the links above followed from the fraud that resulted in the
> changed cosmology of scripture, making it conform to the flawed
> geocentric Greek cosmology.
Utter ahistorical nonsense. It was a BABYLONIAN view that existed long
before the Greeks were an empire. See
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec01.html
Your answers are a great example of creationist urban myth.
acc-growing-dumberer.blogspot.com
>>>>>> not one verse using the words flat earth.
>>>>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2 dimensional
>>>>> FLAT
>>>>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>>>> Obviously, the author of the Isaiah assumed (incorrectly)that you
>>>> are able to understand his line of thought here.
>>> I unerstand his thought completely. The cosmology of the time was a FLAT
>>> earth. See photos at:
>>> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2008/01/biblical-
>> cosmology.html
>>> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2010/02/biblical-
>> cosmology.html
>>
>> The idea that there were waters above the heavens as shown in the
>> pictures at the links above followed from the fraud that resulted in the
>> changed cosmology of scripture, making it conform to the flawed
>> geocentric Greek cosmology.
>
> Utter ahistorical nonsense. It was a BABYLONIAN view that existed long
> before the Greeks were an empire. See
> http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec01.html
See http://ncse.com/image/ancient-hebrew-cosmology
I quote: "An early-twentieth-century conceptualization of ancient cosmology.
Early Hebrews conceived of the universe as consisting of a disk-shaped Earth
that was the center of the cosmos, in which a domelike sky was supported by
pillars of heaven. From G. L. Robinson's Leaders of Israel (New York:
Association Press, 1913), p. 2."
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00128.com> wrote in article
<4ccf51d1$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
> "Doug" <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>> Actually, Newton's law of universal gravitation says all stars are
>> "falling." Newton said, "A centripetal force is that by which bodies
>> are drawn or impelled, or in any way tend, towards a point as to a
>> centre."
>
> Thus the bible is wrong as earth is NOT the centre of all gravitational
> attraction in the universe and stars are not all falling towards earth.
> The red shift proves that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_universal_gravitation
"Newton's law of universal gravitation states that every massive particle
in the universe attracts every other massive particle with a force which
is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely
proportional to the square of the distance between them."
There is nothing said about distance being a limitation.
>
>
>> In fact, Isaiah's prophecy, that says the stars and host of heaven fall
>> like figs
>
> Other parts of the bible add "TO EARTH". HOW can stars all fall to
> earth??????? Have you any idea how large stars are?????????
The same page states:
"Every point mass attracts every single other point mass by a force
pointing along the line intersecting both points. The force is directly
proportional to the product of the two masses and inversely proportional
to the square of the distance between the point masses:"
Nothing that is said here limits the relative size of the masses.
Isaiah got it right, "all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth
off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree." Exactly what
Newton's law said. Stars "fall" just like figs, and apples, or the leaf
falling from a vine.
--
Doug
Rod
> "Rod"<nhra_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>> not one verse using the words flat earth.
>>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2 dimensional
>>> FLAT
>>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>>
>> Obviously, the author of the Isaiah assumed (incorrectly)that you
>> are able to understand his line of thought here.
>
> I unerstand his thought completely.
You "unerstand, huh ?? I'm sure that you don't.
The cosmology of the time was a FLAT
Like your iq....yet you claim to "unerstand" his thoughts completely...
> earth. See photos at:
> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2008/01/biblical-cosmology.html
> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2010/02/biblical-cosmology.html
>
>
>
>> piece of dogshit
>
> An example of fundamentalist "love of thy neighbour" from Rodney Eastman.
>
I've seen your version of love on your website. Don't expect anything
less from me until you show that YOU can treat others decently. You
demand respect, DO SOMETHING DECENT AND EARN IT! Take the names down
that you ridicule and I might be convinced that you actually have some
courage and treat you as a human being. Until you make the first move,
you can continue to eat shit.
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00129.com> wrote in article
<4ccf5d0f$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
There is evidence from one of the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the Thanksgiving
Hymns, that the word 'raqia' meant the earth in ancient times. Psalm 6
[1QH col 3:31], refers to the earth's crust as 'raqia' in a passage that
describes a fiery conflagration, that destroys the trees, the streams,
the dust of the earth, the foundations of the mountains, and even the
souls of those in the abyss, or the underworld! The phrase containing the
word is: "it devoureth the foundations of clay and the surface ('raqia')
of the dry land."
If the meaning of 'raqia' was changed in the time of Antiochus IV, and
the centuries following, it is no surprise that there are some traces of
the old meaning. G. L. Robinson would have had no knowledge of this, as
he lived in the time before the DSS were discovered. He too was a victim
of the fraud of Antiochus IV!
--
Doug
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00128.com> wrote in article
<4ccf527d$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
Ezekiel addressed his prophecy in chapter 36 to the mountains of Israel.
Do mountains have ears? Why would he address a prophecy to them?
Ezekiel 36:1
Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye
mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
Ezekiel also addressed hills, rivers, valleys, desolate wastes, and
cities. [Ezek. 36:4] This prophecy would make little sense, unless the
mountains and hills were symbolic.
Now, in the age of rock n' roll, and jazz, and blues, where people listen
to many songs loaded with metaphor, allegory, poetry, it seems
hypocritical that they refuse to admit that there is poetic language in
the Bible too. The atheists and sceptics insist that the mountain
referred to in Luke 4:5, where Christ was tempted, is literal:
"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all
the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
What deceivers! What hypocrites!
The mountains of Israel, in Ezekiel's prophecy, being prominent parts of
the promised land, represent the promises of God, and the covenants, and
prophecies, that apply to the church. They are possessed by the heathen,
but that is to change.
Ezek. 36 says the mountains of Israel were desolate; they had been
"swallowed up on every side;" they were "a possession unto the residue of
the heathen;" they were "taken up on the lips of the talkers;" they were
"an infamy of the people;" the heathen had "appointed my land for a
possession," and they had "cast it out for a prey." The mountains had
"borne the shame of the heathen;" the land "lay desolate in the sight of
all that passed by;" its cities were ruined, the land "devourest up men,
and hast bereaved thy nations."
The heathen have made the Bible into a derision, it is "swallowed up on
every side" by atheists; "taken up on the lips of the talkers," people
who sneer and scoff at things in the Bible that they don't understand;
yet they presume to tell us what it means. Ezekiel wrote:
Ezekiel 36
5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy
have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea,
which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all
their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the
mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus
saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury,
because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely
the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and
yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
The mountains here, I think, are the words of God in scripture, the
prophecies, and the promises of God.
--
Doug
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00128.com> wrote in article
<4ccf5117$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
> "Doug" <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2
>>>>>> dimensional FLAT
>>>>>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>>
>> There does not seem to have been any specific word for sphere in the
>> ancient Hebrew, and the word for circle, "chug", often designated a
>> sphere.
> ...
>> From what I can tell, there was not a word for 'sphere' in the Hebrew
>> language. It is a word-concept that is missing in ancient Hebrew.
>
>
> Fundamentalist creationist urban myth.
>
> The Hebrew word for SPHERE is "BALL" - duwr.
>
> Isaiah 22:18 it describes Yahweh "will turn and toss you like a ball."
That is only part of the truth; below, copied from The Old Testament
Hebrew Lexicon at http://www.studylight.org, the word duwr is translated
"ball," and "round about," "encircling," "burn," and "pile." Notice, the
word is not defined as "sphere."
The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Duwr dure
Parts of Speech TWOT
Noun Masculine 418a
Definition
1. ball, circle
1. circle
2. ball
Translated Words
KJV (3) - ball, 1; burn, 1; round about, 1;
NAS (3) - ball, 1; encircling, 1; pile, 1;
Isa 22:18 - KJV
He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a *ball* into a large
country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall
be the shame of thy lord's house.
Isa 29:3 - KJV
And I will camp against thee *round about,* and will lay siege against
thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
Isa 29:3 - NAS
I will camp against you *encircling* you, And I will set siegeworks
against you, And I will raise up battle towers against you.
Eze 24:5 - KJV
Take the choice of the flock, and *burn* also the bones under it, and
make it boil well, and let them seethe the bones of it therein.
Eze 24:5 - NAS
"Take the choicest of the flock, And also *pile* wood under the pot.
Make it boil vigorously. Also seethe its bones in it."
>
> Creationuists will try anything to weasel out of the fact that a circle
> is a two dimensional obejct and Jews had a word for a sphere / ball
> which they DIDN'T use in Isaiah 40:22.
The definitions given for duwr do not include "sphere," but they do
include "circle." Evidently, the idea of circle was extended to indicate
spherical things.
Jesus said, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of
the Sadducees." [Matthew 16:6] What is it? In Matthew 23, Jesus called
them hypocrites, seven times!
--
Doug
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00128.com> wrote in article
<4ccf5bd5$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
> "Doug" <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>> not one verse using the words flat earth.
>>>>> Try Isaiah 40:22 "the CIRCLE of the earth" A circle is a 2
>>>>> dimensional FLAT
>>>>> object and NOT a three dimensional SPHERE.
>>>> Obviously, the author of the Isaiah assumed (incorrectly)that you
>>>> are able to understand his line of thought here.
>>> I unerstand his thought completely. The cosmology of the time was a
>>> FLAT earth. See photos at:
>>> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2008/01/biblical-
>> cosmology.html
>>> http://fundamentalistfunhouse.blogspot.com/2010/02/biblical-
>> cosmology.html
>>
>> The idea that there were waters above the heavens as shown in the
>> pictures at the links above followed from the fraud that resulted in
>> the changed cosmology of scripture, making it conform to the flawed
>> geocentric Greek cosmology.
>
> Utter ahistorical nonsense. It was a BABYLONIAN view that existed long
> before the Greeks were an empire. See
> http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec01.html
>
> Your answers are a great example of creationist urban myth.
The "urban myth" promoted by the critical Bible scholars, who claim that
their approach is a "scientific" one, is that the cosmology in the Jewish
scriptures was perfectly preserved through the hellenistic period, and
that the numerous references to a rigid sky, (an idea that characterizes
the hellenistic period) give no indication of any redactions during that
period whatsoever. What an incredible tall story!
Jean Astruc, a professor of medicine in Paris, began the modern critical
study of Genesis with an anonymous work published in 1753, in which he
argued that Moses must have availed himself of previous documents, when
composing the Book of Genesis. Astruc used the approach scholars had used
in their study of the Iliad and other ancient texts. He noted there were
two accounts of the creation in the first and second chapters of Genesis;
also two accounts of Sarah and a foreign king (Gen.12 and Gen.20). His
object was to refute the ideas of Thomas Hobbes and Baruch Spinoza, who
had identified numerous inconsistencies and contradictions and
anachronisms in the Torah, which they used to argue that Moses could not
have been the author of the entire five books. He noted whether a verse
used the term "YHWH" (Yahweh) or the term "Elohim" (God) referring to
God, and supposed that it indicated two different authors had produced
the original sources.
In 1876 and 1878 Julius Wellhausen extended Astruc's documentary
hypothesis to the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses, which he said was
compled from four narratives, that were later combined into one work by a
series of editors or redactors.
Wellhausen was the author of:
Die Composition des Hexateuch ("The Composition of the Hexateuch"), 1876
Prolegomena zur Geschichte Israels ("Prolegomena to the History of
Israel"), 1878
In his theory, the main source documents of the Pentateuch were
distinguished by style, names for God, type of content, and other
characteristics. They were identified as J, E, D, and P.
J - Jahwist - identified with a rich narrative style, the oldest source,
concerned with narratives, making up half of Genesis and half of Exodus,
plus fragments of Numbers. J describes a human-like God, called Yahweh
(or rather YHWH).
E - Elohist - was somewhat less eloquent, describes a human-like God
initially called Elohim, who reveals himself to Moses as Yahweh at the
burning bush.
D - Deuteronomistic historian, connected with the priests of the Temple
in Jerusalem during the reign of Josiah in 621 BC; sermons about the Law.
P - Priestly, language was dry and legalistic. Preoccupied with lists,
genealogies, dates, numbers and laws.
The critical scholars missed one of the most obvious, glaringly obvious,
features of the first chapter of Genesis; the fact that the cosmological
idea of a rigid heaven or "firmament" so prominent in that chapter really
belongs to the hellenistic era, and not to the era of Moses, or the pre-
exile period, when the Pentatuch and its sources are supposed to have
been written, according to the scholars.
The idea of a rigid heaven was developed mainly by the Greek poets and
philossophers. It was a concept underlying the epics of Homer, and Greek
religion generally. Zeus was identified with the rigid heaven, as A. B.
Cook showed in his book, "Zeus, a study of ancient religion." [Cambridge,
1914.]
The idea of a rigid heaven was introduced into the Jewish scriptures by
redactions, that began in the time of Antiochus IV.
In Genesis 1, the word "firmament" occurs far too many times, 9 times in
the KJV, to avoid suspicion. But the critical scholars missed it! Were
they blind? These scholars swallowed whole the myth that the Jews
preserved their holy scriptures perfectly throughout the hellenistic age,
and by ignoring the use of "firmament" 9 times in once chapter, they
implicitly denied that the Jews were influenced at all by Greek
philosophers such as Aristotle, Callipus, or Eudoxus or by their
cosmological theories, or by the Homeric poems, or by Pindar, etc.
Yet in the 2nd century BC, the Jews minted coins that showed Apollo on
one side; shrines and temples of Apollo were built by Jews; the temple at
Jerusalem was dedicated to Zeus; there are plain statements in the
Maccabean accounts that refer to the insertion of "images" of pagan
deities in the scriptures.
In Genesis 1, there are examples of the insertion of references to pagan
deities; the naming of Day, Night, Heaven, Earth, and Sea is an example.
The naming of these things, I say, is a hellenistic redaction. They are
five of the deities prominent in the time of Antiochus IV! It was
entirely missed by the critical Bible scholars, who were fooled by the
fraud initiated by Antiochus.
In the Psalms, there are no references to the names chosen for those five
things; no praises to God for his choice of names. That is because in
David's time, none of those names appeared in the first chapter of
Genesis!
In the great pageant that Antiochus held upon his return from the
Egyptian campaign, where every known deity was honoured, Day, Night,
Heaven, Earth, and Sea were prominent among the deities in the parade.
And, in the account Josephus gave of the creation, he adds two more
things to the list; he says Evening and Morning also received names from
God! What is obvious, is the critical scholars missed the most obvious
"redactions" in the entire Old Testament!
--
Doug
Jude Alexander
"I" <I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00128.com> wrote in message
news:4ccf5333$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> "Doug" <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>> According to Luke's account, Jesus was shown "all the kingdoms of the
>> world in a moment of time."
>>
>> Luke 4:5
>> And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all
>> the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
>>
>> It was not only the kingdoms that existed then; the kingdoms of the
>> future ages could be referred to here. Otherwise, why say "in a moment of
>> time"? So this mountain was not a literal mountain. In scripture,
>> mountains are often used in a figurative way.
>
> How quiock fundamentalists are to switch from the literal to the
> allegorical WHEN IT SUITS THEM!
I don't even bother with the dude! He's an pseudoeverthing as far as I'm
concerned. All I had to do is read a couple of his first sentences and I
was so disgusted with his crap, I just send him back a blank page. He's not
worth my time, at least at this point.
He'll use ANY lame excuse, no matter the source, to back up his adopted
dogma. He goes an extra mile more than the average Fundie but he's no
different than the stupidest because it's not about intelligence. It's
about fear of death and one's unworthiness in the grand scheme of things.
::: Jesus is LORD @ Growing Deeper ::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::
Dear Readers,
They made a list of people that gang up against Christians in this
newsgroup (boss first):
o======================================================================
>
> Mark T posting as I
> ```````````````````
> Matt
> ````````````````````
> Amazing Grace
> ````````````````````
> Sensi
> ````````````````````
> Diana
> ````````````````````
> Jude Alexander
> ````````````````````
> Feather
> ````````````````````
> Nicodemus
> ````````````````````
> Donna & Harold Kupp
> `````````````````````
> Pastor Dave
> `````````````````````
> Seeker
> `````````````````````
> RM
> `````````````````````
> OWD
> `````````````````````
> Mordecai
> `````````````````````
They made this list themselves - it is not mine. They have ganged up
against the Christians. It gives an excellent survey of what has been
going on in this newsgroup, however, and about whom you should AVOID as
the Scriptures say. I am just glad for not being listed up there. Be
careful not to fall into their trap. Of course they are nice and hope to
win you as a supporter. It is also very interesting that they never give
any proof for their so-called evil things I have done, wile I can
represent TONS of proof of their evil actions! There is just a small
choice of that below. Check it out if you please.
Really, I would be very ashamed to be on a list with blasphemers,
mockers, active unrepentant and unteachable witches, libellers,
homosexual activists, anti-Christian hate mongers and attackers of the
Brethren. Let us see whom we can find there on this list...
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Mark T posting as I
> ```````````````````
This wicked, anti-Christian man, Mark Tindall, is the leader of this
little anti-Christian gang of people who listed themselves up in that
list you gave above and work in a team of homosexual activists. After
his brother died of AIDS many years ago, he decided to go on a vendetta
against GOD who condemned homosexuality (read Romans 1:22-32, in your
Bible, for example).
One look at his hate blogs is enough to see what a boss this gang has...
He denies Jesus as LORD and is one of the worst mockers and obviously
the boss of the people on this list.
I MARK TINDALL I@for_idiot.com linked to this hate blog hundreds of
times to discredit my website and my person in
4c7cfc4b$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au:
> --
> ACC-GROWING-DUMBERER
> http://acc-growing-dumberer.blogspot.com/
>
> Fundamentalist Poop Party
~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~
My website "Growing Deeper" at http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de is
actually a Christian website where Jesus Christ is God, a page for
world-wide fellowship, praise and worship. There is an Israel part
included, and prophecy part about Revelation which is in the beginning.
It is a page to reach-out to this world to get to know Jesus Christ, our
Saviour whom we follow. We believe in the One God in three persons - the
Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We believe that the Bible is God's
Word, a love letter to His people. So there is also some Bible study on
this page and numerous articles.
~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~
We do not want our GOD, HIS WORD, our Saints or the Prophets smeared in
a Christian newsgroup by lost demonically driven and Spiritually empty
homosexual activists, no, we would like to have great conversations
about our God! But they came to smear our GOD, they smear our Saints,
they smear the Prophets, and they smear God's Word.
Why do they not go to a Muslim group and insult Allah, Muhammed and the
Koran there the same way you are acting here - and see what will happen.
This is his style and language:
I = MARK TINDALL wrote in
4c7cfc4b$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au
> Poop Party
I = MARK TINDALL wrote in
4c7d064b$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au
> Poop Party
I = MARK TINDALL wrote in
4c7c...@dnews.tpgi.com.au
> Poop Party
I = MARK TINDALL wrote in
4c7cfc4b$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au
> Poop Party
I = MARK TINDALL wrote in
4c7d064b$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au
> Poop Party
I = MARK TINDALL wrote in
4c7c...@dnews.tpgi.com.au
> Poop Party
~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the
apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should
be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly
lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the
Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith,
praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking
for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some
have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling
them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now
unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you
faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the
only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power,
both now and ever. (Jud 1:17-25 KJV)
~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall
judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach
the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort
with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they
will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they
heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn
away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But
watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an
evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. (2Ti 4:1-5 KJV)
Shortly before the rapture of the Church, there will be a great apostasy
and the rise of the Antichrist. Many who call themselves Christians will
fall away from the faith - as can be seen right here in these newsgroups
very well. If you know your Bible, you will know what I am speaking
about.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall
depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of
devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with
a hot iron.
1 Timothy 4:1-2
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the
son of perdition.
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath
not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the
Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this
doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. (2 John
1:9-11 KJV)
If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn't consent to sound
words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is
according to godliness, he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed
with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy,
strife, reviling, evil suspicions, constant friction of people of
corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is
a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such. (1 Timothy 6:3-5 WEB)
Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those who are causing the
divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which you
learned, and turn away from them. (Romans 16:17 WEB)
After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy, knowing that
he who is such has been perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.
(Titus 3:10-11 MKJV)
This man came to ACC in 2003 to chase the Christians off usenet with his
threats, real name and real addy and phone number posting and libel.
Whom he hates most? It is the LORD Jesus Christ and God's Word.
~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~
Some history about Mark Tindall, the homosexual activist leader
~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~*°*~~
In 2003 Mark Tindall (homosexual activist) came to attack ACC. I was not
guilty of anything he accused me of, nor had he even met me. I did not
even know most of the posters on his list. Yet he accused me falsely,
libelled me and mocked and threatened ...
Datum: Mittwoch, 15. September 2010 00:41
In 2003 Mark Tindall came to attack ACC after David Matthieu P.P. had
caught him to join his bullying.
I was not guilty of anything the accused me of, nor had he even met me.
I did not even know most of the posters on his list. Yet he accused me
falsely, libelled me and mocked and threatened me most hatefully. I had
never done anything wrong or bad in ACC, yet I was treated like that by
someone who did not even know me. He even threatened life when he wrote:
"Your Dresden will come", or posted a bomb the similar way he has done
lately. He also libelled my good name in the internet.
What could I do? I did the best thing, namely block this hateful silly
little man that had come to ruin my reputation and to chase all the
Christians away. I did NOT respond to this guy for many weeks, although
he kept on in the style below!!! He kept on attacking me, smearing into
my guestbook on my website, into the forum, and he came into my chatroom
to insult and threaten me.
I had not "persecuted" anyone but was kind to all in ACC! I just
happened to love the group and started a website for them, that was all.
But suddenly they accused me of being an evil cult leader. It was an
assault on my soul, really. I felt I had fallen into the hands of some
killers. Mark was not the only one, however.
Okay, thee are such kinds of evil doers in this world, and that was not
what saddened me most. But many of those who I regarded my friends got
infected by this silly little man's libel and turned against me. It is
easier to be on the side of the bullies if you do not want to be hit,
too, or to run away. What a bunch of COWARDS AND EVIL DOERS!
Some of the so-called Christian girls and guys really thought I should
just stand still until I was dead while they could have a cup of coffee
with the killer.
It is a shame, really, and still is. Not many have the guts to stand up
against such a bully and his friends (Matt, Jude and others of the
homosexual activist league), or stay with the truth. They have all
turned it upside down now, and would really love to believe it
themselves, and just for one reason: they cannot believe in the only GOD
there is, but I can - and my friends. It is envy - or why do they not
just go their way if they have no faith in GOD? JESUS CHRIST? Their
faith in their sexual orientation is NOT FAITH IN GOD.
I thank the LORD JESUS CHRIST for keeping my faith strong in all those
years, and no, It is NOT your merit. But I can say that I have never met
more evil people than here in ACC - also a number of golden hearts,
though, for whom I am very grateful to the LORD.
To give the reader an idea of what I am talking, you can find a few
posts of the bully Mark Tindall below, some of his first ones, while he
did not know anything of me at all and we had no conversation or
personal touch, either. After he attacked my brothers and sisters, I
blocked him for weeks right away. He even called me a "Pente" again and
again, but I have never been a Pentecostal but was a Baptist. I had
never "persecuted" anyone in ACC, and his attacks on me were pure lies.
After weeks of ignoring him, this guy had still not stopped attacking
the Christians, and till today he is trying to drive me off the group,
too, as he has done with so many others. Meanwhile some stupid
Christians gave up their faith to help him on his vendetta, because it
is always easier to go with the masses, and because of their dark
hearts. To give you an impression of the brutality with which this man
came to ACC...
_________start Mark Tindall's rabid attacks__________
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:50:56 +1100 "Mark and Bev Tindall"
<m_b_tind...@tpg.com.au>
posted under the subject "Re: Vera and Griz":
You do NOT have to bow to the authoritarian anal retentive Pente Thought
Police!!!!!
Grizzle Guts, Vera (666) and the "building team" are overthrown! The
revolution is here! Bye-bye "building team"!!!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
THE FOLLOWING SITE IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THIS UNMODERATED PUBLIC FORUM
FOR
ALL CHRISTIANS AND DOES NOT REPRESENT ACC IN ANY MANNER WHATSOEVER!!!
It is owned by the Pente Usurper Vera 666 and is CENSORED by her!!!
BE WARNED!!!!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Where Jesus is BORED & censored by Vera 666!!!
> http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de
Too much Kristyun Lite and no Christian substance!
"Mark and Bev Tindall" <m_b_tind...@tpg.com.au> posted on Sun, 7 Dec
2003 10:51:34 +1100 under the same subject "Re: Vera and Griz"
To Vera 666 ...IN GRIZZLE GUT'S OWN WORDS ....
Check your Bible Vera 666
We as a group reject what you offer. Your ministry is not accepted,
required, or welcomed here.
Leave our region.
Leave.
Sail away even as Christ did as an example to you personally.
You are officially asked to leave Vera 666.
You have been given Scriptural precedent to do so.
Leave Vera 666, we implore you.
Newsgroups: alt.christnet.christianlife
"Mark and Bev Tindall" <m_b_tind...@tpg.com.au> wrote on Sun, 7 Dec 2003
10:52:23 +1100, subject "Vera and Griz"
"Fwank" rote:
...whatever ...
To Vera 666 ...
Newsgroups: alt.christnet.christianlife
"Mark and Bev Tindall" <m_b_tind...@tpg.com.au> wrote on Sun, 7 Dec 2003
13:28:19 +1100, subject "Vera and Griz"
"ratbaggery2me" rote:
> Vera dear heart has given us all much to be thankful for.
PUKE!!!!
> I'am thankful for her as well as griz
DOUBLE PUKE!!!!
To Grizzle Guts (Craig) ...
[...]
You do NOT have to bow to the authoritarian anal retentive Pente Thought
Police!!!!!
Grizzle Guts, Vera (666) and the "building team" are overthrown! The
revolution is here! Bye-bye "building team"!!!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Mark Tindall posted many more evil things on and on and on, not only in
usenet, but he spread our names all over the internet, smeared into my
guest book, forum etc, and also libelled me as a "cult leader" on the
Australian Rowland Croucher's website under my real name. Mark Tindall
came into my chatroom under a faked name, started a nice conversation
and then insulted my and threatened me, saying "Your Dresden will come
this year! I still have nightmares from that time once in a while,
because I did not know what this man would really do. I dream someone
comes into a dark room where I cannot escape, and then he mocks me,
threatens my life, calls me 666.He even told people to throw a bomb on
me, and used my real name. He also incited people to write e-mails to my
pastor. In Germany we must have our name and address on a website, and
he thought it was a good idea to abuse this.
What you can see here is Christian persecution live on ACC. You can be a
witness of that if you start reading ACC from the end of December 2003
(when it was a rather peaceful group) until now.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Matt
> ````````````````````
Let me quote this hate monger Matt (Marty Colbert)... he made a
so-called Christian website in 2004 where he posted Mark Tindall's life
story of getting unemployed after almost ruining a Christian school as a
*Christian* testimony. He posted it under "Christian Testimonies" there
and did his best to help ruin my good reputation. He also made a hate
blog where he libelled me, a simple Baptist and active member of a
Baptist church in Germany at that time, a cult leader in the internet,
just to get rid of me, and all for my faith that God's Word is true, all
of it. He, however, believes in tolerance.
.Matt trdel...@gmail.com wrote in
8d75q5duo6nmiuui0...@4ax.com
> I believe in Tolerance
In opposite to Matt, I believe in Jesus Christ.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6 KJV)
There is no tolerance in that, is there? It is either, or. Black or
white.
Now see what this "tolerant" hate monger wrote to get me off usenet
(among so many other evil deeds):
In news:aiho05d9q2a1vgtjp...@4ax.com,
Matt: <trdell1...@nsgmail.com> typed:
So the conclusion is being nice to Vera doesn't work. She is like a
Child that needs the rod. either that or broken fingers I was going
to say muzzle but that hardly would work here.
Matt
In news:k6jhi41ct27cvaehv...@4ax.com,
The Matt d <trdel...@gmail.com > typed:
Vera Six cyber slut
[...]
ugly ass
[...]
You are also a freak.
[...]
Sad you were allowed to raise a son. Germany
should feel shame
[...]
so called X satanic witch.
[...]
You are a Satanic Bitch.
[...]
A rabid Bitch.
[...]
Lets see what a little money can do shall we.
[...]
Oh lets see if the German Government will sue me like you said LOL
[...]
Maybe you should write to president Obama LOL
[...]
Vera Six you are a FREAK SHOW.
[...]
Vera Six the slut doesn't know it.
[...]
cyber slut.
[...]
No real man would touch her.
[...]
You do look like a drag queen
[...]
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Amazing Grace
> ````````````````````
Amazing Grace (Jean Ward) is Matt's, Mark's, Sensi's, Jude's best friend
online, yet loves to play the role of the innocent Christian lady, pious
as can be. Her holiness came to an end, however, when I asked her to
stand up for the message that we Christians are to tell unbelievers...
As a sister in the LORD, for example, it would have been her duty to
confirm my witnessing for the Gospel - there was no other "authority"
needed but Jesus Christ for that.
She missed it, and spoilt my witness to Sensi, for which she will be
held responsible. Keeping people from God's Word is not what Jesus said.
Instead, He said
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to
observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with
you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:19-20
KJV)
"Amazing Grace" did not reject me, she rejected a confirmation of the
Gospel. She had her chances. She did not take them, for the applause of
the world, and just to harm my Christian witness.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_To inform the Reader_:
Sensi (an unbeliever) had written at a time when "Amazing Grace" had
claimed to be my friend:
===========================
"Oh, it's Vera again trying to get people saved by accepting her
version of Jesus. She sure gets around fast and man she can fight."
===========================
Amazing Grace praised Sensi for that post by the following words:
===========================
"Girl, you sure can paint a picture with words.This is the best thing
you have written since your little ditty about dancing with the man in
the moon."
============================
I kindly asked "Amazing Grace":
============================
"Is it really *my* version of Jesus when I told her the following a
couple of hours ago:
> I believe that Jesus died a horrible death on the cross in my place
> and for my sins so I can have eternal life in community with God. All
> who believe that ARE saved and know about it.
???
Please tell me.
=============================
But "Amazing Grace" justified herself:
=============================
Vera,
I believe that Sensi believes differently from me in a lot of
things. That does not mean I can not be civil to her or compliment her
on her talent for writing.
I know that you and Sensi have an ongoing disagreement. I pray for
both of you and hope you can work things out where you can also talk
things out civilly.
Grace
=============================
So I gave her another chance - this was the next post of that
conversation:
=============================
> Vera,
> I believe that Sensi believes differently from me in a lot of
> things. That does not mean I can not be civil to her or compliment
> her on her talent for writing.
Grace, I did not comment on that, but I asked you a very clear question
and would be glad to get a clear doctrinal stand from you. There is the
post again to give you another chance for an answer:
> Sensi, :)
> Girl, you sure can paint a picture with words.This is the best
> thing you have written since your little ditty about dancing with the
> man in the moon. May you be blessed with a great garden with only a
> few weeds. Love, Grace
Grace, sorry to disturb your praises, but do you really think this is
the best that Sensi has ever written?
This here:
> Oh, it's Vera again trying to get people saved by accepting her
> version of
> Jesus. She sure gets around fast and man she can fight.
Is it really *my* version of Jesus when I told her the following a
couple of hours ago:
> I believe that Jesus died a horrible death on the cross in my place
> and for my sins so I can have eternal life in community with God. All
> who believe that ARE saved and know about it.
???
Please tell me.
**************************
Can you - a Christian - not answer this question? Do you deny that what
I wrote there is the truth? Do you believe something different? Just say
so, so we all know where you are coming from.
Grace, there is no Christian who would deny what I wrote. Watch out what
you are doing there - on Sensi's costs, on my costs, and on Jesus'
costs.
> I know that you and Sensi have an ongoing disagreement. I pray for
> both of you and hope you can work things out where you can also talk
> things out civilly.
Yes, we do have disagreements, and I do my best to tell her why Jesus
died while you come along and ruin all my efforts with regard to that by
just being nice to her, but lying at her, or not telling her the truth.
I have always thought highly of you, and I know you ahve been a
Christian much longer than I have, but I must doubt about your witness
again.
Please think it over where you stand. But we have been there two years
ago, have we not?
> Grace
::: vera :::
=============================
But she did not take it... and answered:
=============================
I am sorry if you doubt my witness. I feel I have to do as I am led by
the Holy Spirit. I do not feel I can witness by ridiculing or
talking down to people.
I must do what I feel is pleasing to God.
Grace
=============================
There was no doctrinal stand by her, just a vague escape blaming it on
the Holy Spirit that she had refused to confirm my correct doctrine. So
my response to her accusing the Holy Spirit of not giving witness of
Jesus then was:
=============================
Sorry, but you do not please God, you will even be denied by Him:
Everyone therefore who confesses me before men, him I will also confess
before my Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, him
I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 10:32-33
WEB)
That is what Jesus told the Disciples.
Grace, no Christian would deny that Jesus died for him and his sins. But
I asked you twice...
I have given you a second chance above. Obviously you seem you do not
owe the people your witness here, and you do not answer my question. I
am sorry, but from now on I cannot accept you as a Christian anymore,
because you deny your faith (provided you ever had one).
I hope you will answer Sensi's questions in future, and also stand in
Judgement for that and for your actions that do not go with Scripture,
but which you think might please God.
Much luck. I will surely pray for your salvation.
P L O N K
::: vera :::
=============================
Without even one thought of Sensi, "Amazing Grace" justified herself by
that:
=============================
I have never denied my Lord Jesus Christ and I never will. My
salvation is secure.
Grace
=============================
*Her* salvation is "secure"... no thought about others. I have actually
never seen anything good but copy and pasting something, and the
weather report and music charts.
A while later she even abused my Christian witness from my webpage,
where I had described how I came from esoteric to the LORD, after two
divorces (which I had not caused):
=============================
> I AM A CHRISTIAN. I have been a Christian since I was in my teens.
> I BELIEVE THAT CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS FOR MY SINS. When you were a
> practicing witch I was teaching classes in my church. I do not feel I
> have prove my beliefs in this newsgroup just because you demand it,
> however for your information and anyone else that wants to know, I AM
> A CHRISTIAN AND I DONT NEED YOU TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO.While you were
> going from man to man my husband and I were helping to start a
> church.He is an ordained Deacon. The things you are saying about me
> are lies. You are making false
> claims against me.Dont you have better use of your time than to
> gossip and play these childish
> games in this newsgroup?
> Grace
=============================
Could it be any more arrogant towards a sister in Christ?
My claims had just been to confirm the following to be basics of
Christianity, and not something made up by me:
=============================
> I believe that Jesus died a horrible death on the cross in my place
> and for my sins so I can have eternal life in community with God. All
> who believe that ARE saved and know about it.
=============================
She did not answer when I asked her as a sister. Her arrogant way
towards me as if she was something holier than I because of her
husband, and I had just been a sinner before I converted, were stupid
and heartless at the same time.
The fact that "Amazing Grace" is on this list of blasphemers, witches,
mockers and hate mongers, and the fact that she evenposted it herself
presents her as the Spiritual Whore that she is.
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,
nor standeth in the way of sinners,
nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But his delight is in the law of the LORD;
and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;
his leaf also shall not wither;
and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
The ungodly are not so:
but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous:
but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
(Psalms 1:1-6 KJV)
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Sensi
> ````````````````````
I cannot warn you enough of that wicked witch Marlene Capps! Just read
that, please:
_WARNING OF OCCULT PRACTICES IN $$$ CULT CALLED ASTARA_
They are trying to convert people behind the scene and on the scene of
ACC (alt.christnet.christianlife) to sell them occult prractices or
make them members of their cult! They are IN NOWAY CHRISTIAN!
Reading the following message carefully might save you or your family
members and friends from joining one of the new cults of the occult
scene...
________start quoting poster Sensii (Marlene Capps) ________
On Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:47 AM [GMT+1=CET],
Sensii <sensi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I offered to get you a *health reading* not a psychic reading. .
[...]
I personally get a health reading once a year and have found them to
be 100% correct in helping any person become more aware of what's going
on inside their body.
These come from the Metaphysics class I took for about 6 yrs.
They have a God given talent of being able to read the aura of the
body but from the 3rd level of mind.
Did you know there are 7 levels of mind? (3rd heaven..7th heaven)
biblical.
[...]
If anyone is interested I'll be glad to give you the number...
[...]
The health reading are $ 85.00 very affordable with much more intrinsic
detail than a Dr. visit. Dr's have their place and are well equipped to
help heal the sick .
__________end of quote_________
I do not say that aura magic does not work. But it is what it is:
OCCULT. People should ask themselves whom they want to give their soul,
God or satan. They cannot say they have not been warned now.
Yes, Astara is the new name for Asteroth who shows herself in a new
dress there. She has many similar names... insiders know.
This is from Wikipedia...
________________________________________________
"The name Astaroth was ultimately derived from that of 2nd millennium
BC Phoenician goddess Astarte[1], an equivalent of the Babylonian
Ishtar, and the earlier Sumerian Inanna. She is mentioned in the Hebrew
Bible in the forms Ashtoreth (singular) and Ashtaroth (plural, in
reference to multiple statues of her). This latter form was directly
transliterated in the early Greek and Latin versions of the Bible,
where it was less apparent that it had been a plural feminine in
Hebrew." The pseudepigraphal work Testament of Solomon, attributed to
King Solomon of Israel, but thought to date to the early centuries AD,
mentions "Asteraoth" (in Greek) as an angel, who is opposed to the
demon of power.
The name "Astaroth" as a male demon is first known from The Book of
Abramelin, written in Hebrew ca. 1458, and recurred in most occult
grimoires of the following centuries. Astaroth also features as an
arch-demon associated with the qliphoth (adverse forces) according to
later Kabbalistic texts.
________________________________________________
I just wonder how many posters were asked to get involved with this
occult Astara Cult by Sensi. I have always thought she was rather
harmless, just a little stubborn, but this shows her in a very
different light. It explains her "dislike" for me, too. She knew I
would expose her for teaching the occult right away. "New Ager" was a
rather harmless term for her. There is obviously much more behind her
coming here to Christian groups. I guess she is trying to get members
for her cult.
And - ha, ha, ha, just read their "testimonials"
(http://www.astara.org/support-testimonials.shtml).
Does it ring a bell??? $$$
This is Sensii's version:
________start quoting poster Sensii________
> There are numerous stories where they have helped others gain back
> their health and emotional stability through
> the teachings of Jesus Christ. ( Do unto others) and they do.
> I highly recommend it for anyone who is suffering with pain or
> emotional distress and can't find answers from the medical field.
> You can be your own judge... But you cannot judge till it you receive
> one. :-)
________end of quote________
o====================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Diana
> ````````````````````
Diana Oelrich just comes in once in a while at the moment, but she felt
happy in the family of Mark Tindall and Glenn McClary and the like, whom
she called her "dear brothers in Christ" for the attention they gave
her. Incapable of reading more than one line, she yet commented with
tons of hate for the Christians.
In news:73cav5F...@mid.individual.net,
Diana <shech...@reborn.com> typed:
>> Glenn
>
> Thank you my friend and brother. I pray the very same for you.
Diana shech...@reborn.com wrote in 85gpli...@mid.individual.net
>>>> I agree with what you said Mark.
>>>
>>> Thank you Sister Di.
>>
>> Mark Tindall (AKA "I"), Amazing Grace and Diana in one accord! The
>> right birds flocking together.
>>
>> ROTFL!!!
>>
>
> Yeah "we are in one accord" Christians. Thanks for noticing.
I could present tons of her Spiritual Whoredom and hate for the
Christians in favor of those who gave her some attention, but since she
does not often come anymore... Maybe later.
A while ago she even agreed with Donna Kupp when she claimed we are all
to keep the Sabbath, and thanked her for that.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Jude Alexander
> ````````````````````
Let me just quote this from him...
On Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:24 PM [GMT+1=CET],
Jude <ca...@swamp.wet> wrote:
> Who, with a working brain, can look at the
> bible and STILL say it doesn't at least have numerical
> mistakes/contradictions of the same event. The gospels are FULL of
> them yet I believe the basics of the gospels. To believe in
> inerrancy is pure lunacy or a concerted effort to "lie for Jesus!"
No, Jude does not believe in the basics of the gospels, because he
rejects God in general and also rejects the Bible as God's inerrant
Word, which are both basics of the Christian faith. If people reject the
basics of the Christian faith, they are no Christians.
That is what Jude has been doing in ACC in the past several years (to
quote from one of Randy's posts):
-------start of quote------
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 17:10:22 -0500,
In newsgroup "alt.christnet.christianlife",
Article <h89945$gu3$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Subject: Re: I cannot respond
"Jude" <ca...@swamp.wet> wrote:
**************************************************************
Jesus is NOT God.
**************************************************************
On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 11:25:20 -0600,
in article <JzCHh.4561$X6....@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
"Jude Alexander" <Ju...@littlerowofoaks.usa> wrote:
*************************************************************
I'm here for ONE reason, to expose the errors in the bible and
to SHOW that it CANNOT be the "inerrant word of God!" Sorry
you can't handle it.
*************************************************************
See also http://tinyurl.com/2hkygx where he lambastes Paul as
an "apostate".
Jude calling people an "asshole" 191 times:
http://tinyurl.com/34x6pm
Jude Alexander, supporter of one of the worst blasphemer of ACC (Mark
Tindall),
Ca...@tete-a-tete.usa wrote in i9kbrk$r2s$1...@news.eternal-september.org
> I support Mark 100%
-------end of quote------
Christians should be alarmed, for just like Mark Tindall his boss, this
man Jude has no other reason to come here but weaken the Christian's
faith. Jude should be marked for what he is to warn others according to:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and
offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own
belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the
simple. (Romans 16:17-18 KJV)
He should also be rejected by the Christians, according to:
After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy, knowing that
he who is such has been perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.
(Titus 3:10-11 MKJV)
If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn't consent to sound
words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is
according to godliness, he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed
with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy,
strife, reviling, evil suspicions, constant friction of people of
corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is
a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such. (1 Timothy 6:3-5 WEB)
Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought,
but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth
not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the
doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come
any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your
house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is
partaker of his evil deeds. (2 John 1:8-11 KJV)
It is as simple as that: Those who welcome him anyway are no Christians.
People, be on the watch! For...
... your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking
whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV)
o======================================================================
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o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Feather
> ````````````````````
Scratched off the list. She has been absent for a while anyway.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Nicodemus
> ````````````````````
He is rejecting Jesus as the LORD. He badly needs to get a life, but as
long as this gang pretends he is saved there will not be a change, and
he might die for hell one day. Sad but true. He is one victim of the
activist's tolerance program.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Donna & Harold Kupp
> `````````````````````
Donna and Harold are two of the worst heretics ACC has seen. They claim
we all have to keep the Sabbath, and keep the Commandments to become
righteous. Jesus is not GOD for them, either, just a God. No further
comment here.
They teach a false doctrine that comes close to the doctrine of the
Jehovah's Witnesses.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Pastor Dave
> `````````````````````
The false doctrine of this fake Pastor Dave Raymond has been refuted
1000 times or so. He says Jesus came back for a second time in 70 AD
already, and saying that the destruction of the *Jewish* Temple in
Jerusalem was like the destruction of the earth for the Christians,
which - according to this blatant liar - fulfilled the prophecies of
Revelation. He might have a reason to try to escape the coming Judgment
and ignore it, but it WILL take place anyway, and with him.
He is well known for his death threats like this if people do not buy
into his lies:
"Pastor" Dave AKA Bible Believer no...@nowhere.com wrote in
j2qdr2lhdnaajbc7v...@4ax.com to "Code Programmer"
<raymo...@hotmail.com> who happened to ask for proof for his claims:
>> HOw about some evidence to prove your claims.
>> they are nothing but hearsay and assuption.
>
> Listen, stupid... your posts are the proof. Just the other
> day, you were talking about some troop movements in
> Iraq and how that was never done before and then started
> quoting Scripture, saying it was the fulfillment of it!
>
> When you lie like the dumb ass you are and actually sit
> there and think that people are that fucking stupid, that
> they can't see what the fuck you're doing, then you deserve
> to be shot in the fucking head, you fucking moron!!!
>
> Now goodbye, you fucking ass wipe!
His ideas do not allow him
- to celebrate Christmas (he will soon start a hate Christmas campaign,
you will see)
- to celebrate Easter
- to have the LORD's Supper
- to pray the LORD's Prayer
- ...
"Pastor" Dave wrote himself that ...
- he was ordained by a "minister" and some Elders who laid hands on him,
who sent him out to preach
- he was not a member of their church (which is rather dubious, and I
would really know what denomination they were - no serious church would
ordain a Preterist to preach, and I would really very much like to talk
with them if that is all the truth)
- he is no member of a church (only his home church)
- they ordained him while he was in prison
- churches disgust him (I believe it is because they would never accept
his false teaching)
- he did not say what he was in prison for
- got the piece of paper for marrying people
- he thinks he is very well studied without a church, (but yet did not
understand the basics, as he claims the Second Coming of Christ in 70
A.D.) - which I refuted in the other post today, and which was refuted
1000 times or more by so many Christians before
- he denies teachings of other Christians (and so denies Colossians 3:16
(WEB): "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom
teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual
songs, singing with grace in your heart to the Lord." He also denies
Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) "Go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all things which I commanded you. Behold, I am
with you always, even to the end of the age." I do not see he was
"taught" or would be teachable here in ACC. The result is his false
teaching that does not leave any hope for believers, because there is
still pain, suffering and death even for them - yet "Pastor" Dave thinks
this is Heaven already. How can one be so blind??? And how can he make
disciples with that? Obviously there are some who are this stupid that
they think this is Heaven already while the next tooth-ache will show
them how far they are away from that yet. *sigh* Obviously he has never
learned the Gospel by other Christians, but Scripture says in 2 Timothy
4:2 (WEB) "preach the word; be urgent in season and out of season;
reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching." (2 John
1:9-10 WEB) Whoever transgresses and doesn't remain in the teaching of
Christ, doesn't have God. He who remains in the teaching, the same has
both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you, and doesn't bring
this teaching, don't receive him into your house, and don't welcome
him")
- he ordains other people by laying hands on them
- he obviously has papers to do the jobs as a "Pastor". (but that is
really not very difficult in the States, just have a look there:
http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/)
What I know about "Pastor" Dave from experience in ACC is that
- he is up for strife with Christians who have joined a church
- he calls people names all the time and lies about them
- he threatens to kill them by statements like, "You are one dumb cunt
and I say it again... You should be taken out behind the shed and shot
in the head, you stupid fucking bitch!"
- he uses methods to post so people cannot really follow what was going
on - very often he insults others in new threads and exposes them in the
subject lines
- he lies about the Gospel by claiming that Jesus has come back in 70
A.D. already - which has been refuted 1000 times (see article "Preterism
Refuted")
- he shows only little or no love for others, not for other Christians,
either, if they rebuke him for his heresy about the Gospel and for
leading others a wrong path
- he is in severe pain very often and yet thinks this is Heaven already,
while he does not call the earth earth in 2 Peter 3:10 (WEB), for
example: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in
which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements
will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that
are in it will be burned up."
- came to ask for money for his rent in usenet, and after given
continues with his attacks
- he tells people to kill themselves by statements like, "Another dumb
cunt lies. Why don't you go kill yourself."
- has not even a heart for starving kids in the world, and I could show
you articles in which he directly complains that the churches give money
for that and not to him
All in all I can only warn of this false teacher, and I do not really
see that there might be ANY serious church that would support his
teaching. He made at least one disciple here already, which should cause
all Christians here to be very concerned. He should proof his ordainment
as a "Pastor" - but he never will. Yet he comes calling himself "Pastor"
to get the trust of the people.
He made at least one convert in ACC.
He still owes me 200 bucks which I, a German, sent him across the ocean
for his rent to prevent that he and his wife would become homeless, but
he is all against sending money to starving black kids in Africa. He
thinks this money should better be given to him, so he can continue
spreading his anti-Christian stuff all over the world.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Seeker
> `````````````````````
He is tolerant for anyone but the Christians. A blatant liar. No fish,
no flesh, and on the list.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> RM
> `````````````````````
Roy Mock (RM) is the slimiest one of them. You will not see what he is
up to at
once, but will soon learn that he is fighting the Christians in favor of
a false "tolerance". He is a hidden mocker and one of gang leader Mark
Tindall's most devoted lackey, kissing his a** daily.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> OWD
> `````````````````````
OWD (Oldwetdog/Glenn McClary/St Dog the Wet/Servitum and other sock
puppets...) is the worst blasphemer ACC has seen. He started this bloody
flame war in 2003/2004 with Mark Tindall, Matt and others, and he hates
the Trinity, calls believers in the God of three persons believers in a
satanic lie (here hundreds of times, and on his website).
Oldwetdog Glenn McClary AKA servitum ser....@xprt.net wrote in
135gn48...@corp.supernews.com
> First, yes I do say that triune gods are false gods.
> Yes, I do say a triune god is pagan and Satanic.
> [...]
> Glenn
He threatened the Christians like this if they believe in the God in
three persons, too:
> ----------------------
>
> Know this:
> You made war,
> You made war on MY people
> There will be no peace
> None, no peace.
>
> I am against you
> Wherever you go to
> there is no place on earth
> or heaven above or heaven below
> that I will not find you
> and make war on you
>
> I will make war
> I am war
> on you
> War!
>
> (You might want to know that I have spent the last 90 days in
> collecting
> information... google is *my* friend!)
>
> (You might want to know that I know your ISP, and that your personal
> information is available as pubilic information.)
> (Sh#t, the net is *MY* friend!)
>
> You knew this, right, when you decided to make war?)
>
> Only fools commit acts or war when they are not ready for war.
> oldwetdog
>
> --------------------------
>
>
>
> Those who do not understand war, should not commit an act of war.
> oldwetdog
>
>
> I am against you.
>
>
>
> --
> +-<[:-)>>>- oldwetdog
> -----
********************
OWD is a false prophet. He left his wife and small kids to live in the
woods as an eremit for decades, hiding from a prophecied atomic
explosion in his area which did not take place (praise the LORD).
He says himself that false prophets should be stoned.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
> Mordecai
> `````````````````````
Scratched off the list. I have never even written anything unkind to or
about him, and never would. He is my friend and will one day be open for
the truth. I would never do anything to harm my friends. I also pray for
his health, and hope he is fine.
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
o======================================================================
Watch it - the guys on the list which they made themselves have no
Christian motivation. They just ganged up to fight Christianity.
B E W A R E O F T H E W O L V E S I N S H E E P C L O T H E S!
Better run away from this place and find some Christian places
where you can get answers to your questions without being dragged into
their wicked little plot, and end up with a ruined real name.
Thanks for reading through this long message, but it might save you from
much evil.
Be Blessed!
Jesus is LORD!
Vera Six
___________________________________________________
http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de
http://growing-deeper-bridge.blogspot.com
http://jesus-christ-is-my-lord-and-my-god.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/verasix
Jude Alexander Ca...@tete-a-tete.usa wrote in
iapb0l$b16$2...@news.eternal-september.org
[snip the homosexual activist! block him, ignore him, do not feed him!
He is one of those on their list.]
Doug
<I...@VeraSixmystalkerandtroll00128.com> wrote in article
<4ccf5333$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>:
Literalism is the preferred hermeneutical approach of the atheists and
sceptics. And yet they use that label pejoratively referring to
Christians. But, isn't that hypocritical?
From: Cosmic Dance by Conrad Hyers
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1332
<quote>
The literalist mentality does not manifest itself only in conservative
churches, private-school enclaves, television programs of the evangelical
right, and a considerable amount of Christian bookstore material; one
often finds a literalist understanding of Bible and faith being assumed
by those who have no religious inclinations, or who are avowedly
antireligious in sentiment. Even in educated circles the possibility of
more sophisticated theologies of creation is easily obscured by burning
straw effigies of biblical literalism.
But the problem is even more deep-rooted. A literalist imagination -- or
lack of imagination -- pervades contemporary culture. One of the more
dubious successes of modern science -- and of its attendant spirits
technology, historiography and mathematics -- is the suffusion of
intellectual life with a prosaic and pedantic mind-set. One may observe
this feature in almost any college classroom, not only in religious
studies, but within the humanities in general. Students have difficulty
in thinking, feeling and expressing themselves symbolically.
The problem is, no doubt, further amplified by the obviousness and
banality of most of the television programming on which the present
generation has been weaned and reared. Not only is imagination a strain;
even to imagine what a symbolic world is like is difficult. Poetry is
turned into prose, truth into statistics, understanding into facts,
education into note-taking, art into criticism, symbols into signs, faith
into beliefs. That which cannot be listed, out-lined, dated, keypunched,
reduced to a formula, fed into a computer, or sold through commercials
cannot be thought or experienced.
</quote>
Literalism was employed by the Devil when he tempted Jesus.
Matthew 4:5-7
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a
pinnacle of the temple,
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it
is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their
hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot
against a stone.
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord
thy God.
Blind literalism characterized the accusers of Jesus, at his trial. Jesus
had referred to himself as God's temple, as the Spirit of God was
dwelling in him.
Mark 14:57-59
And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying, We
heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and
within three days I will build another made without hands. But neither so
did their witness agree together.
Literalism was also the mindset of those who mocked him.
Mark 15:29-30
And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying,
Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, Save
thyself, and come down from the cross.
--
Doug
Peter B.
I've enjoyed your posts.